135. The Sacred Inquiry of Tarot and IChing in Modern Times with Tarot Reader & Creativity Coach Cecily Sailer

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When Cecily and I first met, our shared enthusiasm for the divination rituals sparked an instant connection, one that's grown into a profound exploration of Tarot and IChing we're thrilled to share. Picture a bridge spanning across time, connecting the ancient wisdom of the IChing's hexagrams walking side by side through the Tarot's Arcana. This series promises to be a fascinating tapestry of history, personal narrative, and the art of divination, where listeners are invited to journey with us through time-honored practices that remain as relevant today as they were millenia ago.

We delve into the symbiotic relationship between these tools and the rhythms of nature, viewing them as conduits for tapping into ancestral wisdom and the natural world. The sacred art of inquiry is celebrated, as we disclose our personal methodologies and insights into using these ancient systems for reflection and growth, urging you to discover your own connection to the cosmos through these rich practices.

Let's not forget the practicality of such esoteric knowledge—our dialogue extends beyond personal growth to touch upon its application in everyday scenarios and even business ventures. Whether you're drawing your first breath upon the path of divination or seeking to enhance your existing practice, this series is a call to embrace the transformative power of intuition and ritual in your life. Join us as we celebrate the intertwined paths of Tarot and IChing, guiding you toward a more profound understanding of self and the world around you.

Resources: 

• Daoist Lunar Wisdom Free Course
• Creative Magic Collective 
• My Fave IChing Translations
• Tarot Deck Recommendations
• UUSI Tarot 
• Liberation Tarot
• "Animism is Normative Consciousness" by The Emerald Podcast

Cecily Sailer is a Tarot reader, writer, and coach who supports and mentors folks in developing a more mystical and spiritual relationship with their creativity, themselves, and their lives. Cecily is the founder of Typewriter Tarot, a project that support Creative Spirits by offering spaces of magic, creativity, inspiration, and community. 

Connect with Cecily: 

• Website

Kat HoSoo Lee is an Emotional Alchemy Coach, Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Emotional Alchemy Podcast.

She loves playing in the space where science and spirituality converge because this is where we get to experience emotional alchemy. In her work, she educates space-holders about somatic physiology and environmental biology so they can deepen their practices of listening and presence which ultimately helps them expand their capacity to hold space for others.

As a Spiritual Business Mentor, she guides soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. The work bridges the emotional landscape with practical tools which allow them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, relational marketing and purposeful service.

• Youtube

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to our.
I guess this is a joint podcastepisode, right, cecily?
Because you're going to releaseit on your podcast, we're going
to release it on my podcast andI'm really, really excited for
this start of the series.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
I am excited as well.
Yeah, I'm looking forward tothis exploration.
I'm going to learn a lot.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yeah, let me give people a little bit of context
for what I'm talking about here,because I think I just got a
little too excited and was likeexcitement.
So Cecily is somebody who camethrough my program business
Optimus Mentorship, and she usesTarot as this wonderful

(00:49):
divination tool.
I have used her services in myown personal life.
Actually, when I firstpurchased my property, she
really helped me out and gave mea lot of guidance and I really
felt like that session that Ihad with you was like a deep

(01:09):
rooted connection back to mygrandfather's spirit in
particular.
And just the way that you talkabout the Tarot, the way that
you are connected to theelements, the way that you are
connected to nature, I just feellike I had so much to learn.
And so when you were working onyour offer to present to the

(01:34):
world, I was like I think I needto take that, I think I need to
be in the student role with you, and so this is a little bit of
an extension of me being yourstudent.
But then also my background isin the Yi Qing, which is a
separate divination practice,and I don't know.

(01:56):
I just really wanted to likenerd out with you for like on a
regular basis, and so that's whyI asked you to come on this
show and we're going to gothrough.
Today's talk is going to beabout like an introduction to
the Yi Qing, introduction to theTarot sort of our ways of

(02:17):
relating to these divinationtools and then we're going to
meet every season.
So there's going to be fiveother episodes beyond this one
where we go into some of theparallels and differences.
We'll sort of pick a energy ofthe season and explore it
through a couple of hexagramsthrough my tradition and maybe a

(02:40):
couple of Tarot cards throughyour tradition, and sort of see
where there's like aninterweaving of these
traditional practices that spansgeography, spans time.
So, yeah, I had to like cooldown my excitement to like
actually get that out.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, thank you for inviting me on this exploration
with you and, conversely, youknow, going through your program
, which has its roots in Taoismand also the elements and
seasons and cycles, has beenreally so helpful in just
thinking about creating andbuilding my business in a

(03:20):
sustainable way andincorporating some of the things
that are so important to me.
You know, thinking about theelements, thinking about the
seasons, thinking about how wecan move more in the spirit and
flow of nature.
So, yeah, what a lovely pairing.
I'm excited to draw someconnected lines and learn from

(03:44):
you and share what I know, tothe extent I can.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, and if you're watching this on YouTube, we've
also got Queenie with us.
It's Cecily's dog and she'sjust like giant furball.
So if you want to see Queenieas well, she's out there in the
video lands.
So I think I roughly mapped outlike some of these like touch

(04:15):
points that I'd like to playwith in this episode.
Of course we're going tomeander because I don't know how
else to do interviews and dopodcast episodes.
So some of the main conceptsthat I really want to like touch
upon is really brief history,impossible to get into like the
full history of either one ofthese systems, but really brief

(04:36):
history to place ourselves asmodern humans in the bodies that
we, in particular ourselves asindividuals, occupy, then the
cultures that we occupy and sortof like how do we sort of
interplay that with the historyof these divination tools?
I also want to get into alittle bit of like the contrast

(05:00):
between arcana and cannons,which is our version of the
arcana in, and each thing, andthen we'll get into a little bit
of like how we personally setintentions, how we ritualize
these things and why images andkinesthetic rituals are so

(05:22):
powerful and why they're soimportant and how do we get back
to those roots and, of course,we're going to interweave all
this with animism and theelements, and then we'll finish
up with like how can we actuallyuse these tools?
Now that we've like nerded outand talked about the philosophy
and the context and the historyof it, how can we practically

(05:45):
use them as a tool that helps us?
For me, the each thing connectsme back to myself and that's
always been my sort of likerunning theme and thread with
the relationship with the eachthing.
So, yeah, does that feel cozy?

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Come to you.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Do you want to start, or do youwant me to start with the
history?
What's a good place?

Speaker 2 (06:13):
It does not matter to me.
What would you prefer?
I believe your history is moreancient.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
I don't know how old the tarot is, but I am going to
venture to guess that it is alittle bit more ancient.
So I actually woke up earlythis morning because I needed to
review my history on the eachthing, so I'm going to look at
some notes here.
So approximately 1000 BC iswhen we first got a chance to

(06:48):
like get the first iteration ofthe each thing.
That was done by one of thestages called Fushi, and what he
did is he created the originaltrigrams and hexagrams.
And so, if you are familiar atall with the each thing, it is a

(07:12):
book of pictures and eachpicture is a representation of
six lines, either broken orsolid, and if they are solid
lines, that's a representationof Yang.
If they're broken lines, that'sa representation of Yin.
And depending on how theYin-Yang balance is expressed

(07:35):
through those six lines and Ican show you if you're on
YouTube, you can see I have atattoo of one of the each thing
hexagrams and so depending onthe placement of whether it's a
Yang line or a Yin line, it hasdifferent sort of energies.
And so Fushi is the firstperson who came up with the

(07:57):
original eight hexagrams, orrather the eight trigrams, and
then, a little while later and Icouldn't get an exact time, but
I got like a time span of whenthis individual was alive, more
between 1152 and 1050 BC KingWen took those trigrams because

(08:25):
it's a trigram is three of thoselines and he placed them into a
hexagram, sort of aconfirmation.
And so that's where we end upwith 64 is because there are
eight of these trigrams and youcan pair them with any of the

(08:49):
other eight and that's where weget eight times eight is 64.
And so he would be the secondsage who gets quite a bit of
credit in the each thing.
And then Confucius, who wasalive somewhere between 550 and
480 BC, is another one of thesages that gets a bit of credit

(09:10):
as well, and so he was able toadd just commentary and context.
I'll say that the philosophiesof both Confucianism and Taoism
both have their roots in theeach thing.
For me, I don't personallyreally relate to Confucianism as

(09:32):
much.
There's a lot of structure andcultural context that don't
really align with me, but myspiritual practice is Taoism and
that's where I come to thisspace, and so everything that
you hear me talking about withthe each thing is going to be
coming from more of a Taoistviewpoint versus a Confucianist
viewpoint.
One of the things that I thinkis really important to name is

(09:56):
that it has gone through roundsof almost being destroyed, and
so in 200 BC, the Chin Statewent through this like massive
burning of the books in China.
Same thing happens with MaoZedong, and I feel so lucky that

(10:18):
I get to look at.
I actually brought fourtranslations with me to this
podcast recording because I feellike I needed my friends here
with me and I feel so lucky thatwe actually get to read these
texts as modern humans and getto play with them and get to
continue to learn from them.
So that's really brief overview.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, that's amazing.
What a history and a trajectoryand, yes, how wonderful that we
have these texts remaining andthat it's kind of hard to, I
think, fully eradicate a set ofideas and an approach and a
philosophy.
Those people have certainlytried and I'm glad that you're

(11:05):
here bringing it back to us inyour own way too.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
So tell me a little bit about the tarot.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
The tarot.
Yeah, the history is not quiteas old as I mentioned and starts
in medieval Europe around the1400s, when wealthy Italian
families began to commissionartists to create beautiful card
decks for them.
So playing card decks would becreated by these artists and

(11:37):
there's not.
It's a history that's a littlehard to fully pin down and trace
from one point to another inits progression and evolution.
But as the decks evolved therewas an aspect of Italian culture
in which there would be theseparades held where, kind of

(11:59):
resembling something like MardiGras, where different archetypes
would be kind of paradedthrough the village like the
fool or the emperor, and so someof those things started to make
their way into the card decks.
So the cards would have thatplaying card set that we're kind
of familiar with, like thisprogression of numbers and
different suits, and then theselarger archetypes that kind of

(12:21):
reflected something social orsomething in the social order
and also in, I guess, thespiritual order began to be
added and so that's what'scalled the major arcana in tarot
.
And so it originally came outof game playing but then later
evolved for divination, and it'sunclear who took that on or

(12:47):
when that began, but that hascontinued to evolve over the
hundreds of years and one of thetwo of the most famous or
well-known decks in modernhistory are the Smith Rider
weight tarot and then anotherone called the Toth deck or the
Thoth deck, and those weredesigned respectively or Arthur

(13:11):
Waite was the originator of theSmith Rider weight deck and
Pamela Coleman Smith was theartist behind that deck and he
was originally part of the Orderof the Golden Dawn, which
Alistair Crowley had a big partin, and so the Thoth deck kind

(13:32):
of represents Crowley's sort ofbranch of that Order of the
Golden Dawn and Arthur Waitekind of branched off at some
point, and so those two werecreated early in the 1900s and
the Thoth deck is much moreintricate and there's a lot more
deeper, complex symbology inthat deck and so it's kind of a

(13:55):
study unto itself and I'm notactually very familiar with it.
With the tarot deck that Waitecreated has been since the 1900s
like probably became morepopular and was used by more
people.
You know, like in the 60s and70s is like more and more people
got into a kind of alternativespirituality and then as we get

(14:19):
into the modern era, moreinterpretations of that tarot
deck have evolved and it's areally beautiful space because
it's so visually centered thatartists, many artists, have
reinterpreted the tarot and ontheir own representations of the
archetypes, and we're in amoment now where tarot is very
popular and very mainstream, andthat's kind of been helped by

(14:42):
Instagram, I suppose.
And, yeah, they've just becomemore widely available and, I
think, less taboo in a way thatthey might have been several
decades ago.
And so, you know, on the onehand that may be kind of like
diluting the art or but it'salso kind of a free form art and
a free form practice in a sense, since there isn't, like, maybe

(15:07):
, such a rich history ofdocumentation and kind of
practice that has been moreformalized.
There has been some, of course,but it has like a lot of
fluidity and this like evolution, where people can really kind
of make their own impact orimprint on it.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
That leads me to a question that I've been dying to
ask you actually is.
You know, in preparation fortaking this course with you, I
spent so many hours lookingthrough so many different tarot
decks.
I eventually landed just in astate of like exhaustion just

(15:51):
because I love Kim Kranz's workwith other decks, and so I just
landed with her deck, which Ibrought with me here.
I love, I love, love, love herimagery.
But do you have a deck that youfeel a personal resonance with,
and is there a reason whyyou're drawn to one deck versus

(16:15):
another?
Is it really just from a matterof feel?
When I was asking people andtrying to like, crowdsource,
like where I should go, peoplewere just like, just hold the
deck and look at the visuals andsee if it like lines with you
and I just like I got a littlebit overwhelmed with too much
choice.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, there's a lot out there.
And it's also hard because whenyou're shopping for decks you
can't really see everythinginside the deck usually unless
you're in a store and they havelike a copy you can dump through
.
I started with the Smith Riderweight deck just because it is
so well known.
So a lot of like the teachingthat you'll read is based, or

(16:54):
things you might hear onpodcasts are based on those what
seem like original images.
They're not the original.
You know their older decks,like the Marseille, but that
deck kind of formed the basis, Ithink, for modern tarot as as
broadly understood.
So I started with that one,just so you know.

(17:15):
I kind of went about it in thissort of book learning way,
which is not what I advisepeople to do now, which is why I
created a whole workbook tohelp people get to know the
archetypes and the tarot throughtheir own personal experience
and through journaling and so.
But I started with that deck tokind of like get a little
encyclopedic about all the stuffthat was said about the

(17:37):
different cards and then once Ifelt pretty familiar with that,
I started to branch out intoother ones and it kind of comes
and goes.
Like sometimes I'll get a deckthat seems exciting in the
moment and then I work with it alittle bit and I'm kind of like
, well, I don't know if I reallydig this one that much and then
I'll give it away.

(17:58):
Or, you know, I have thesemystic messages that I send a
tarot card with a poem.
Sometimes I'll use them forthat.
And, yeah, sometimes I'll useone for like a year or several,
you know, period of severalmonths and then it'll kind of
phase out and a new one willcome in.
I was using a deck called thePagan Other Worlds deck by Usi.

(18:20):
It's a design studio, it'scalled UUSI and the artwork is
just stunningly beautiful.
So I was using that deck for awhile until something happened
to one of the cards and I justdidn't replace it.
These days I'm using, Isometimes use the Theodore
Pavlov deck and so he's got.

(18:43):
These are also very similar or,you know, somewhat based on the
Rider Waite deck, and I alsorecently got the Liberation
Tarot, which came through aKickstarter with a group of like
activist artists and organizers, including Adrienne Marie Brown

(19:03):
, and the imagery in these cardsare really beautiful.
So I've started kind of usingthat one more recently.
So, yeah, you know, it's kindof like I feel like it's dating.
It's like you have to go outand like interact with it and
play with it and see how youfeel about it and invest a
little bit to find out, beforeyou're like, yeah, I don't think

(19:23):
this is a good fit.
Or like, yeah, let's keepdating for a while.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
Let's see where this goes.
Yeah, love it.
I'd love to share my favoriteYiching texts, if that's okay
with you.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, I was going to ask you how do you?
Pick what you turn to.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, because there's so many.
I think I probably have 20different translations of the
Yiching and I brought four inparticular just because I
thought that they were.
They're the ones that I sort oflike turn to all the time.
So for me, this one againYouTube go if you want to find

(20:06):
the visuals, but I'll put allthese links in the show notes as
well.
But this is the CompleteYiching by Taoist Master Alfred
Huang.
This is like my absolute go to.
The reason why I like this oneso much is because the Yiching
cannot be separated from Chineseculture and because so much

(20:35):
meaning is held in thecharacters and even just like
how the characters evolved,because each of the hexagrams
has a name and so like knowingthe sort of like character
characterization of how thatparticular word came to be has

(20:59):
so much depth.
It's like an entomology studyin and of itself.
And so this gentleman livedthrough the Cultural Revolution
and was one of the.
He was young when he wentthrough the Cultural Revolution
and, like he is one of the Idon't know preservationists of

(21:21):
the Yiching, and because he's soconnected to Chinese culture, I
feel like there's a lot moredepth and nuance in this one and
I think, too.
Something that I want to name inthis is I've got an Asian face.
I've studied Eastern medicine,I've studied Chinese medicine,

(21:44):
and this is not my culture.
I think that it's so easy forpeople to be like, oh she's
Asian, she must know about allAsian cultures, and that is
absolutely not true.
I probably have more in commonwith a white woman on the West
Coast than I do with somebodywho's like a Chinese born woman,
and so to me that feelsimportant to name, because I'm

(22:10):
looking at this as an outsideras well.
I don't have the same contextand the same understanding of
the culture.
I mean, I bring in my ownKorean culture, but even that is
one step removed because I'm aKorean American, and so I feel
like it's important to name thatwhen we're studying traditions
and texts and contexts fromother cultures, like where do we

(22:31):
place ourselves within that, sothat we aren't unconsciously
appropriating or maybe puttingon a facade, because I could
very well just sit here and belike, yeah, I know everything
about this because I'm Asian too, and like that would feel
really icky and unethical to me,and so that feels really

(22:53):
important to name.
So this is my go to text.
If I were to say you know, ifyou wanted to get one text, get
this one.
The second text I wouldrecommend, and just because it's
like such a practical book, Ilike this.
It's called the Yi Qingworkbook by RL Wing.

(23:15):
I don't always love thecommentary because it feels a
little bit more prescriptivethan the Huang book, whereas
Huang is more like.
This is what the charactermeans, this is the energy of the
elements that are beingexpressed.
The place where I get a littlebit like, oh, don't do that is

(23:38):
when, like Yi Qing texts turn itinto a prescription for how you
should live your life and itturns it into like an advice
thing, and so I would take thecommentary with a grain of salt
with the RL Wing, but I likeusing it.
I mean, this is why I got soexcited about your course and
your program is because I lovewhen there's like a workbook

(24:00):
that I can work into and likehave a personal experience with
it, and so when I go throughthis workbook I can look back
and be like, oh, I pulled thathexagram during this particular
time in my life and you knowit's interesting to sort of like
look back and be like, oh, howdid that actually turn out Like,
how like did it actually followthe energy of that hexagram

(24:22):
when I look back into it, andyou know, it gives me a deeper
understanding of each hexagram,because I've got my own personal
life story sort of written intothat book.
So those are the two that Ilike, would recommend, like,
would recommend.
If anybody is like, whereshould I go?
There's 10,000 different textsout there, so that's, that's

(24:44):
where I would go.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, there's a new one as well, by Benabel Wynn,
who is also a tarot person andshe does really exhaustive texts
.
I don't, and she's an artist.
I don't know how she's able tolike create all the things that
she creates, and I'd be curious.
I purchased that book buthaven't had a chance to get into

(25:07):
it.
I'll be curious, yeah, what youthink about it.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Definitely going in my shopping list.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
One thing I want to maybe bring in is like the
different ways that you interactwith these two, and of course I
mean or maybe not, of courseit's probably not obvious to
everyone, but when you'reworking with tarot it's like you
shuffle the cards.
There are all kinds ofdifferent ways.
You can choose the card orseveral cards that you're going

(25:34):
to, you know, bring in asanswers to your questions or as
messages, but the eachingfunctions a bit differently and
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about, like, how you
get your hexagram and thatprocess.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
So there's a couple of different ways and again,
this is where I get like soexcited and curious about how
you work with this hero as well.
But there's a couple ofdifferent ways that we can work
with the eaching deck.
So before you just like jumpinto and like read the book
cover to cover, because that'snot how it's meant to be played

(26:12):
with.
Way back in Fushi and KingWednesday, how they used to
actually read divination was byheating up the shoulder bones,
like the scapula blade of oxesor the shells of turtles, and

(26:37):
based on how the cracks happened, whether they were solid or
broken lines.
That's how they would theninterpret the etching.
We don't do that anymorebecause that's not nice to
turtles.
So our modern modern, inquotation marks our modern way

(26:59):
of doing things is either byusing yarrow sticks, which is
like a about 30 minute process,or by throwing three coins.
So typically what I end updoing is just throw coins.
I do have yarrow sticks.

(27:19):
They're in storage right nowand it actually took me like two
or three seasons of growingyarrow and harvesting them and
then drying them, and so I'mstill new at using the yarrow
sticks because I've not had themfor long enough to have a deep

(27:41):
relationship with them.
But it's this really beautifuldance of like you separate out
the stalks and yeah, I'm notgoing to get into that because
it's a whole process butessentially the easiest way to
do it is throwing three coins.
I have three pennies right infront of me and, depending on
the order of if it's like head,head, tail or tail, tail, head

(28:07):
or all heads or all tails, itgives you the kind of yin yang
line that you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Through like a numerical value.
It's like heads equal.
This tails equals this and youend up with like six, seven,
eight or nine it's, and thosesorry.
So, it's.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
I don't know the exact numbers, because the yin
is like an even number, yang isodd numbers.
I think six and nines are likethe unchanging.
And this is where like thingsget fuzzy, because the way that
I categorize them is head, head,tail, tail, heads.

(28:49):
So you build up the hexagramfrom the bottom, because it's
like a plant that's growing upout of the ground, and so the
first, you know set of coinsthat you throw gives you a line.
The second set of coins thatyou throw gives you the second

(29:11):
line right above it, and thenyou do that until you get all
six lines.
And actually, before I came onto record, I threw coins for our
episode and for our series andI asked the question of how to
approach like.

(29:31):
For me, it's less about likewhat is the future going to look
like?
And more about like how shouldI conduct myself in these
moments?
How, you know, what am Isupposed to learn from this?
And so then it ends up beingmore of an internal process than
I like.
These things need to turn outexactly right, and I think that

(29:53):
that's where divination can turninto a little bit of a mutated
thing, where people start tothen cling to it for like
external validation thatsomething's going to happen and
our little human brains cannotpossibly contextualize like all
the good that's in the worldwhen we're like in the midst of
a hard thing.
So I asked the coins, how do Iapproach this podcast series

(30:21):
with Cecily?
And I mean I should stop beingsurprised by the things that
come up.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
But it's hard not to.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
I know.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, continues to amaze.
I'm so excited to know what itsaid.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, so it's double fire.
So it's the fire hex or firetrigram right over the fire
trigram.
It's hexagram 30.
And in this text, the Huangtext, he translates that to
brightness.

(30:56):
And it's really about like twopassions coming together.
If you think about fire as likethe thing that we're like
really so excited about and Idon't know, I just was like what
when I, when I pulled it, I waslike that can't be right, so

(31:18):
perfect, right.
And then the translation inthis RL wing is synergy, and so
it's really about like twoenergies coming together and
creating something bigger Fromhere, it says.

(31:41):
This hexagram suggests that youand the object of your inquiry
are dependent upon each other.
Working together, theinteraction of your spheres of
influence can achievesignificant needs.
These synergistic interactionswill provide ideas and
inspirations, generate surplusenergy for continued growth, and
refined communications andperceptions.

(32:02):
So I guess we need to make adeck together to probably where
they all come together somehowMaybe jump 17 steps, maybe
through the process of likelearning about the tarot and you
learning about the each thing.
There's somewhere where theylike converge and we can create

(32:25):
something together.
But yeah, that's, that was whatcame up.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Very cool.
Yeah, I wish I had pulled somecards.
Maybe I'll pull some as we keepgoing and share it.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, yeah.
So how do you work with thetarot?
What, like, what sort ofintentions are you holding when
you're drawing cards?
I've seen spreads.
I've not worked with spreadsyet.
I feel like that's likeadvanced degree level tarot.
I've just been pulling a cardwhen I feel pulled the call,

(33:01):
when I feel called to pull acard.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, I mean, it's so individual and versatile and it
really I get like kind of tocome back to the dating metaphor
it really is a relationshipthat you get to develop with it
and you get to kind of explorehow you want to show up and how
you want to engage with it andhow often and how you want to

(33:28):
bring yourself into the moment.
And I, you know, for me I tryto.
You know, I think there's likea group of the world that sort
of sees tarot as a parlor trickor you know some kind of like.
Let's like wow ourselves withwhat they say.
And I don't really experiencethat a lot necessarily, but like

(33:53):
when I would be out givingreadings in public or at events
or something, you would sort ofencounter the people who would
come to your table and be likeshow me what you got, kind of
thing, which I think I can seewhere that comes from but sort
of undermines the greatprofundity.
I think, like what you know,the same thing that happened

(34:15):
with the hexagram that youpulled, speaking so directly and
beautifully to the moment andthe occasion and giving really
like almost guidance that feelseven more exciting than we want
to let ourselves get excitedabout.
There's always with tarot, Ithink, that element of like

(34:36):
surprise and validation.
And so when I come to the cardsI take some, usually take some
time to like get quiet, hold thedeck.
I say I guess what would belike a little prayer of just you
know, I kind of start with likeI'm grateful for this day, I'm

(34:58):
grateful for this life.
I'm someone who got sober fromalcohol, which was kind of like
how this whole, the whole mywhole life turned toward tarot
and spirituality.
So I say some gratitude forthat and then I try to like add
on a little bit of gratitude forwhatever is going on.
And then you know if I'm inkind of a rough spot or like

(35:21):
really wrestling or grapplingwith something or really just
like worked up about a situation.
Sometimes I'll either speakthat out loud and just kind of
like let the energy of whateverI'm holding find language,
either in my mind or againspoken just to those whatever
spirits may be listening.

(35:42):
So I take some time to justkind of connect with the deck
and connect with.
I see tarot is like a technology, like an interfacing technology
, where you can look at thecards, like the cards function
sort of like a telephone betweenyourself and your subconscious,
or yourself and yoursubconscious, plus like

(36:04):
benevolent spirits that arehelping you through life or
ancestors or elements or youknow, whatever people might
think of as their spiritual team, I guess.
And so, yeah, I take a moment tolike connect with whoever may
be showing up to share messageswith me through the cards.
I'll shuffle the deck and, likeyou know, sometimes I'm just

(36:24):
asking, like what do you want meto see today, what would you
like me to know?
Sometimes, if I'm doing aspread, like on a full moon or a
new moon or the turning of theseason or some particular
occasion, you know I'll kind ofwork that into the intention and

(36:45):
also into the questions, yeah,and then I try to close whatever
I pull, like usually with alittle bit of writing, but also
again like gratitude, and kindof treat it like a small ritual
that has like an opening momentand a closing moment.
You know, I think there's alsoa way and I do this sometimes

(37:06):
too where it's just like I'm alittle more harried or on the go
and it's like let me pull acard and it doesn't have the
same, like you know, spiritualattention that I'm giving it
most of the time and I try notto feel guilty about that, but I
try to, like more often, do theintentional approach.
But yeah, that's kind of how Icome at it.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, I love that you kind of relate it to like
telephoning within and also towhatever spirits they want to
show up.
And you know, that's myexperience of the each thing as
well, and I don't know if you'veread the Golden Compass.

(37:49):
It's a series and they talkabout the each thing and then
they, instead of using a tarotdeck, it's like a, like a device
that these kids like, feel intoand to me, like that's like the
most like accurate way thatI've felt it is, it really does

(38:13):
feel like a spiritual practice.
It feels like and in a worldwhere everything is so fucking
mental, like like mentaloriented, mind thought oriented,
it's so nice to have somethingthat is a tangible thing, like

(38:35):
you are holding a deck of cards,you are holding coins, you're
holding your sticks andinteracting with it in this very
kinesthetic way, and I feellike we've lost so much of that
and it's inspired me to bringritual into other aspects of my

(38:57):
life that are outside of playingwith spirituality.
You know how can I say?
Every time I walk into my barn,I touch the right side of my
barn door and I say thank youfor being here.
You know, it's in these littlemoments, where we build
relationship with things thatour ancestors believed that had

(39:24):
spirit.
You know I was listening to apodcast episode.
In the title of the podcast isanimism, is the normative
culture, and if you think about,like our entire human history,
you know some of the ways inwhich the translations of the

(39:44):
each can talk about, like fushiand king, when are like, like
these people were like sodifferent and they looked at
nature and they, you know, werefollowing the rules of nature
and it's like, yeah, like we allhave the capacity to do that.
Like why do we like relegatethat to our like you know

(40:10):
ancestors 45 generations removed?
Like we can still sit with.
You know the, the trigrams, theeight trigrams are
representative of heaven andearth.
Oh gosh, I have to remember themnow you know wind and thunder,

(40:30):
water and fire and lake andmountain, and so it's like we
can sit with all those elementsand really just like be in the
presence of that and like try tounderstand how we as humans can
connect to nature and how weare a part of nature and how

(40:51):
nature can connect within us.
And to me, like that's likewhat that telephoning feels like
is, it's just like direct lineto something that's bigger than
us.
And yeah, that's that's all Ihave to say about that.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, how is it for you when you come to the each
thing?
How do you yeah?

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Similar to yo.
Like I think that the commonthreads that I love is that it's
a stillness practice for bothof us, it's a gratitude practice
for both of us, it's a way tolike take a moment out of our

(41:33):
very busy lives and to like lookwithin and ask these questions
that, like you know, you knowthey're ruminating in your head
like yeah, like they're bouncingaround in there.
So like, why not create somesort of like ritual to like help
ground that in some form ofcommunication in in one way or
another?

(41:53):
And you know I I'm in betweenhouses right now.
I was just telling you rightbefore we hit record that like
there's something about yourenergy, cecily, where, like you
help me find a house, becauseyou helped me out when I was
sort of grappling with thepurchase of my land back in the

(42:18):
fall of last year.
My husband and I are justfinalizing the details for our
condo purchase this week and so,to be quite honest, like I've
not had the same relationshipwith the each thing that I
normally do when I have agrounded place that I can come
to and like having like an altarset up.

(42:40):
I like having a table set upwhere, like, I can actually be
in that space and and sort ofcreate like a spiritual groove
with it.
But you know, they talk aboutin these each thing texts like
even how you store the Yarosticks and how you store the
coins is important because it'slike there's a reverence for

(43:02):
them there, and so, yeah, Ithink that there's a lot of
similarities in how we approachour divination practices, even
though they're two differenttools.
It's kind of we're talkingabout the same thing.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned all of that and it
brought to mind this benefit orthis function of the practice
that I think, like even if youdidn't believe that the messages
you got were like significantor useful just the part you do

(43:38):
before you pull, before youthrow your coins or Yaro sticks
or pull a tarot card of likesitting down, say, like getting
still separating from thebusyness and the distractions of
life, being with being withyourself, being with your
concerns and finding language tokind of articulate what it is

(44:02):
you're trying to inquire about.
We'll take you through thisprocess of because, yeah, like
you said, everything, so much ofour lives is so mental and
there's so much likeping-ponging and noise in our
minds, and when we slow down andtake the energy of whatever it
is is kind of consuming us andtry to kind of like consolidate

(44:24):
it into a clear question, thatprocess of distillation and
clarifying I think is sobeneficial to take that noise
and that clatter and get it intosomething that has like a core
and a center, that like, even ifyou only did that part, you

(44:45):
would feel better, even if youdon't have like the answer.
So I just think that's anotherbeautiful element of divination
that like helps us get seriousabout what we actually care
about and what's like on ourhearts and on our minds.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, I also wonder about the art of asking a
question for you, because youknow, like I said, I spent the
morning sort of being with mybooks and being with my workbook
a lot actually here andrealizing that the nature of my
questions has changed sodrastically Because I've been

(45:25):
using this workbook since I wasprobably in my 20s and a lot of
those questions, if I look backon them, are like, are things
going to work out between me andmy husband?
And you know this like outcomebased questioning and, like I
had shared earlier, so much ofthe way that I question things

(45:45):
now is really about like howshould I approach this?
You know, like what am I meantto learn from this?
Like those kinds of questions.
And I also think you know, justto sort of bring it into like a
practical sense of the word, itgives me a sense of like what

(46:05):
it is that I might need.
So the last time I actuallypulled this Hexagram 30 was
during the middle of a BAMlaunch and like I pulled that
and realized I've been doingeverything by myself, like I was

(46:27):
like a literal one women showand was looking at it was right
when I was going to like startlike recording all the video
curriculum for my program andlike, just like my schedule
looked really, really full atthe time and I pulled that card
and realized, like in thatmoment, oh, I need help.

(46:48):
Like like the card for, or the,the Hexagram, was telling me
that, like the thing that'smissing in my life is another
partner in this.
It's another sort of likesynergistic energy in this.
So that's when I asked actuallyNadine, who is a holistic money
coach, to come and coach withme alongside me in BAM for a

(47:14):
cohort, because I just reallyneeded help and space to like
take some of the things off ofmy plate and to like bring
someone like her into my BAMprogram, just felt so aligned
and so perfect.
And so, you know, sometimes thehexagrams, the cards, you know
the divination tool helpsilluminate what is actually

(47:38):
missing, not just like pointingus towards like what's present
in there, like it was nice toget this one because it was like
like this, like deep feeling oflike oh, that's what's here
right now, you know, versus likethat's what's missing, yeah
that's really.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
That's great that you have a workbook where you kind
of see where you were the lasttime you pulled this, and I
think that's a great practicefor anyone using divination to
have some kind of way ofrecording when you got something
or, like you know, journalingabout what messages you get and
being able to look back BecauseI think you the message comes

(48:16):
through for you in the momentand often I guess you know like
most of the time, 90% of thetime, I feel like I can
understand something about whatthe cards are saying.
But, as you like, live throughwhat is then the future and look
back.
You have all this lifeexperience that brings more

(48:37):
nuance and texture to that, thathexagram or that tarot card,
and it just deepens yourunderstanding.
So I think that's really cooland I also love how, in one
sense, it was sort of likehere's what you need, and in
another sense, maybe it's sayinglike here's what's possible,
here's what's like set up forthis, maybe yeah, but I think

(49:01):
the questions are reallyimportant and it's I certainly
encourage people to avoid yes orno questions or like outcome
questions, like will this happen?
Because there's not in the tarot, there's not like yes or no
card and to really focus on openended questions like you're
talking about.

(49:22):
You know how can I navigate thesituation.
What's the best way for me toshow up to this relationship?
Why am I feeling like this?
What do I need?
You know things that have thatcan open, I guess, the window
for like a more texturedresponse and that center

(49:44):
yourself in the present momentwith agency.
So it's not like what is lifegoing to like hand me, will it
give me this husband?
Will it give me you know,whatever versus like how can I,
you know, handle, deal with it.
I just feel like that's moreempowering.
So it's a way to empoweryourself to like figure
something out and make a choiceand then take an action.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Absolutely, and I love this concept of agency
because that's really ultimatelylike what it comes down to is,
like you know, divination toolsare not like fortune telling
tools.
It's not like I can see intothe future.
It's really about how can wecenter you said it so
beautifully, did you say like,how can we center on agency

(50:30):
within this?
Because it's like I think anytool, whether it is a coach or A
book or you know, tarot or eachhang or coins or whatever it is
like if it takes the agencyaway from you, like this is the
thing that, like I can't standabout.
You know, sort of like the dark, shadowy side of coaching is.

(50:54):
I see so many ways in whichagency has taken away from
people and then we create moreentangled relationships versus,
like, when we are actuallycoaching and mentoring people
correctly, it's always going togive that power back to that
person.
You know that should always beour aim and I think that that is
something that comes throughfor me is like, when I play with

(51:16):
the each thing, I feel a lot ofmy ancestors and I can sort of
feel their hands at my, at myback, and it's always about like
, like you have, like you haveto take the agency that we
didn't always have is how Iinterpret like more recent
ancestors, I guess.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
Yeah, and I like that made me feel suddenly the sense
of beauty in this notion ofworking with ancient divinatory
practices that you and what yousaid is really important about
lineage and appropriation andconnection to the origins or,

(52:01):
you know, respecting the originsand not having some sense of
origin, but just that they helpus kind of like connect with a
practice that's really old andthat goes back through time to a
place that's like hard toimagine, like our brains can't
calculate, like 600 years, youknow, yeah, and that like humans

(52:24):
were asking the same bigquestions back then, and like
we're so focused on what's newand all of these platforms, new
technologies, new apps, youfucking everything, and it's
like what about the old stuff?
What about connecting withnature?
What about looking at pieces ofpaper or bones, or so I think

(52:45):
that's really beautiful.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Yeah, love it.
I want to kind of dive into alittle bit of like the nitty
grittiness of it.
I'm just going to throw somewords out there and however you
want to play with them, I justwelcome it.
So, elements, archetypes,imagery yeah, I don't know how

(53:16):
you want to, where you want toweave from there, okay.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yeah, that's, that's great, and I might talk too much
, so just not do it, do it.
Yeah, the elements, thearchetypes, the imagery.
That's a huge part of tarot.
Just for folks who may not befamiliar, tarot has 78 cards and
there are four.

(53:41):
There's like five subsets ofthe cards and four of them are
suits, like the ones we see in aplaying card.
They're not exactly the samesymbols, but in the tarot you
have pentacles, wands, swordsand cups, and each one starts
with an ace and goes through,goes up to 10.

(54:02):
And then there's four courtcards the page, the knight, the
queen, the king.
So there's 14 cards in eachsuit and each symbol or each
suit is connected to an element.
So the pentacles, which looklike coins, are connected to the
earth element and like densermaterial, building things,

(54:24):
resourcing ourselves, you know,because earth moves more slowly
than the other elements.
There's kind of like a morepatient or longer timeline kind
of feel to the pentacles.
The cups are associated withthe element of water and water
is associated with the emotionalside of being human.

(54:46):
So when you're working withcups you're talking about
feelings and your relationshipto emotions.
And then you have the wands,which are basically like sticks
that have like a little bit ofgreen growth on them and they're
associated with fire and theway I think about that, and the
fire element is kind of like thevital spark of life, like

(55:10):
whatever animates life insidethe physical form.
You know, kind of like thelight of the sun brings us into
the growth of spring and that'sa kind of invisible mechanism to
us.
That happens in plans throughphotosynthesis, right, but that
sun energy is alchemized intothis like growth and you know,

(55:35):
flowers bursting open and thingsgetting taller and green
spreading around, so that's fire.
And then there's the swords,which are connected with the air
element, and air is connectedwith a mind.
And that becomes easier toremember when you work with
tarot, because the swords cardsare kind of the scary, some of

(55:57):
the like more unpleasant ones,just like our thoughts can
really do a number on how weexperience life.
So, and swords are kind of, youknow, cold and hard and we can
associate that a little bit withlike rationality.
So the swords would be therealm of like communication,
thought, logic, boundaries.

(56:20):
And then you have the fifth setof cards, which is called well,
first, I should say, when youtake the suits together, it's
called the minor arcana.
So that's 56 cards total.
And then there's another set ofcards, 21.
No, 22 cards that start withthe fool, which is numbered zero

(56:43):
, and goes through to the world,which is number 21.
And then in between you havethese archetypes like the lovers
, the chariot, the devil, thetower, the star, the moon, the
sun I won't name them all, butthey are these larger archetypes
that don't have like a suitassociated with them.

(57:06):
So I think of them kind of like,if you imagine, the gods of
Greek mythology that like livedon Mount Olympus, that the major
arcana are like those big kindof god, like energies that
represent the work we're doingon a soul level.

(57:26):
So these may be lessons thatcarried over from another life
or from time spent in thespiritual plane between lives,
and here we are on earth, kindof still working with those soul
lessons on the earthly plane.
And then the minor arcana to mehave more to do with like the

(57:46):
smaller, shorter rhythms of lifedown here, so like kind of
phases in our relationships orin our work, or you know, things
are working on internally.
And then I'll just add thatarcana means like secrets or
mysteries.
So the major arcana are likethe big mysteries and secrets

(58:08):
and the minor arcana are themore maybe mundane secrets and
mysteries.
And then, to touch on theimagery part, I will say that I
had a tarot deck for a reallylong time, for probably 10 or 15
years, that just sat in acloset because I thought you had
to have like a psychic.

(58:28):
You had to either be psychic tolike use them well or you
needed to be raised by like awitch grandmother who taught
yeah, I own one anyway and I had.
I was neither of those things.
And then I had a boyfriend movein.
I had a small house.
I felt like there was too muchstuff and I was like we got to

(58:50):
get rid of stuff.
And he had this deck that waszombie themed.
I was like you don't need this,I'm going to give it to my step
sister.
I'm like she'll be into thezombie deck.
And then we did a reading andshe had some like crazy things
going on and the spread was justreally.
I was like, oh damn, this isthe stuff works, like this is

(59:13):
real, just like looking at theguidebook using this little
spread.
And that's what I was, like I'mgoing to learn this, this is,
this is what I've been lookingfor.
But as I kind of started workingwith it more, I have a
background as a writer and soyou know telling stories and
writers are interested in whatit means to be human and our own
experience on earth and how wenavigate all kinds of everyday

(59:39):
and terrible and wonderful andspiritual things.
And I realized that this is astorytelling device, just like
writing, but it's coming to usthrough these symbols and these
images and so it doesn't have Imean, it does come into our
brain, like our brains willstart working to sort of analyze
and figure out what they'resaying, but the visual imagery,

(01:00:01):
I think, lands for us on avisceral level.
I almost feel like there's agut response to cards that then
like kind of rises up throughcognition, and that was one
thing that I just found sobeautiful and appealing about.
It was like it's interested inthe very same thing that writers
are, but it comes at it fromthis other angle and lands in

(01:00:23):
your body in a different place.
So that's my riff on Rhymes andimagery.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
I'm freaking out a little bit over here because
I've not had anyone explain the,the elements of the tarot deck
and the minor major Akana inthat way and I'm over here being
like she's talking about theage.
So I had mentioned earlierthere are eight central trigrams

(01:00:57):
.
So trigram meaning there's, youknow, lines of three, and then
you take those trigrams and youpair them up with other trigrams
and that's when you get thehexagram and that's why there's
64 of them.
But the, the, the trigrams arepaired, so heaven and earth are
paired together and the energybehind that particular trigram

(01:01:22):
is like mother, father energy,it's creation, it's nature, it's
cosmos, it's the pentacles,which is like that non-changing
Cosmic energy that's likeswirling around us all the time.
And you know we as humans can doall sorts of weird shit here,
but like generally, like earthand heaven are gonna be fairly
stable, and then you move on tofire and water, where they're

(01:01:47):
paired together and I think ofwhat you were saying about the
swords and air is it's, it'sforms of energy.
It's like how we as humans,like we need these vital pieces
of the elements to live, like weneed water, we need warmth,
right, and then we get into windand thunder, and that's all

(01:02:12):
about movement, it's aboutdevelopment.
I think you had said here it'sthat vital spark of life and and
I'm sitting here being like, doI have them?
I'm coming up with this on thefly right now.
So like coming up with theseassociations on the fly right

(01:02:32):
now.
So it's like you know, is airmore Wind and thunder?
Is fire more fire and water?

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's gonna be a fun part of
this.
Exploration Over the series iskind of like different ways of
looking at those bridges and,yeah, how, and I think that's
kind of the point with theelements.
And one thing I love about Bothof these systems though I'm way
less familiar with each thing,but like, if you're gonna work

(01:03:03):
with them and know what theyrepresent, then You're going to
have to think about the elements.
And when your attention goes tothat more and more or for me,
what happened was like I startedto.
I've always loved nature, butit gave me like a new lens for
Feeling like the fire energy ofsomething or the water energy of

(01:03:25):
something, and also kind ofgetting curious about the
combinations of energies and howthey because that's what
everything is that we're lookingat is some like combination of
energy coming together and wedon't actually know.
What energy is or where it comesfrom.

(01:03:45):
We only understand it in termsof its manifestations, exactly
Like.
We can only measure it by, like, how tall that tree got or how
many watts of electricity arecoming through here, how fast
the wind is blowing.
But we can't really like traceenergy to a thing, and so it
gives you this lens to look atthe world of like, and I think
that lens brings you closer tonature inherently.

(01:04:06):
Yeah, absolutely More of uswere doing, we're doing yeah,
and then, like this one doesfeel actually really something
like the pairing of lake andmountain feels like parallel to
how you describe cups.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
It's like about consolidation, it's about
stillness, it's about socialinteractions, there's
emotionality involved with it,and so I'm like it's so
fascinating to me that, like youknow, we're we're in lots of
different locations here.
Like China is massive, and youknow, italy is just like a world

(01:04:44):
away for people back in thosetimes, and still we were always
looking at the same elements,essentially, and coming up with
similar stories and feeling intothe energies of like what is
water, like what is fire, likeyou know what's earth like, what
are what, what are the heavenslike, and trying to Describe it

(01:05:11):
in Words that will never be ableto like reach a full
description of it.
You know, that's the thing thatI love about writing is I can
write about Love and never getclose to really being able to
describe what love actually is,and that's the first line in

(01:05:31):
another one of our seminal textsin Taoism, which is the Dao De
Ching, is the Tao that can benamed, is not the Tao at all,
and it's this idea of like we'regoing to spend our entire human
lives trying to figure out howto coexist with these energies
and it will never feel like thiscomplete arrival state.

(01:05:55):
So there's, there's that piece,and then what you were saying
about the minor and the majorarcana, we have Our version of
that is the cannons.
So we have the upper cannon,which is the first 30 hexagrams,
and it's the energy of young,it's the energy of heaven, it's

(01:06:15):
the like description of what isAlways changing and never
changing at the same time, whichis like the natural phenomena
of the cosmos and the eartharound us.
And then we have the minorarcana, and lower canons is how
we talk about it, and it's moreof the yin aspect.
So, like the social dynamics,the human affairs, the like

(01:06:37):
Dramas that play themselves out,and so I just find that so
interesting.
Is it like?
Like, in these two differenttraditions, there is still this
concept of hey, there issomething that is massive, that
is the setting that we all livewithin, and then there is

(01:06:58):
something about the like, the,the minor tips and the
challenges and the dramas thatwe have in our human experiences
, and this is how we can explainit within the context of this
big picture that we're allliving in.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Yeah, I love that.
It's so interesting, how?
Yeah, it's like I think it getsto some sort of essentialist
nature of humans which is likewe are curious, we want to
understand the world and then,you know, so many different
cultures have developeddifferent frameworks for

(01:07:32):
Bringing some understanding tothat and just inherent, like you
know, like what you said aboutthe dow, like the dow that Can
be named is not the dow.
It's sort of like If you thinkyou've pinned it down to
something, like you're not inthe dow anymore.
Yeah, and like the arcana'sMeaning mystery and secrets,
it's like you can't know, likewe're gonna Bring you into the

(01:07:57):
mystery and bring you into thesecret and you get to explore,
but there's just there's,there's part of it that you can
never distill into your, uh,human perception and kind of
conquer or you know Um fullyunderstand.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Yeah, yeah, which then, like a part of my own
practice with the yi ching is um, when I throw coins and I get
the hexagram and I look up the,the trigrams that make up the
hexagram, before I consult thebooks, I like to Sort of like

(01:08:40):
invoke my past ancestors andjust sit with those two elements
for a minute and be like okay,so like what would it look like?
Like you know, if we're gonnause, you know, the, the fire
over fire that I pulled today,um, what happens when fire meets
fire, you know, and this imagethat I came to was like two

(01:09:04):
people coming to a hearthtogether you know and it's like,
like the like warmth and thelike reciprocity of sharing
story back and forth with eachother and like Like that is the
feeling that I get when I sitwith this hexagram.

(01:09:24):
That might be unique to my ownexperience of it, but to me it's
like the more you canpersonalize these things, the
the deeper relationship you havewith them.
And Then, when that hexagramcomes up again, it's like this
old friend that you're meetingagain, um, versus something that
you just pulled out of a bookand like consulted a book for

(01:09:48):
the answer.
You know, I think, always,always, always.
Like go back to the wisdom thatyou already have within
yourself, like we all know whatyou know wind feels.
Like we all know what earthfeels like.
Like can you sit with theseelements and like Come up with
your own explanation and poetryaround, like what that element

(01:10:11):
actually invokes and feels likefor you?

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
I love that.
I love that a lot and I think,for both systems, if you work
with them and you're not likecoming at them like In the
predict the future magic eightball kind of way and you come
with that curiosity, thatthere's um An opportunity.

(01:10:38):
I feel like working with bothsystems helps you develop your
connection with your intuitionand especially when you're
willing to like sit with whatyou see and see what feelings
come up inside, you see how yourbody reacts.
Like life will show useventually if our intuition is

(01:10:58):
On.
You know was like showing usthe right direction or not.
Like we will find out.
But before that, if we'reworking with each hand or tarot,
we get some of that Affirmationor validation, I guess, around
what we've been sensing.
Like the felt sense we'vealready had.
So, you know, maybe it's likewe suspect and hope that this

(01:11:23):
collaboration and these podcastseries will bring together these
different kinds of stories or,um, spread a little warmth and
fire to you know, other peoplewho might be listening.
But then when you see thehexagram show up for you it's
like, oh, my intuition was Ontosomething like what I was

(01:11:43):
feeling was is being affirmedhere, and so we get this like
kind of shorter turnaround timewith our intuitive sense, and so
I really liked tarot as a wayfor people to develop more
connection with intuition,because the world we live in
does not that teaches us how todo that or want us to really do
that, because it's not going totake us in the direction of the

(01:12:04):
systems that want to use ourlabor or want us to spend our
money, um.
So, yeah, I love that.
That came up for me as you weretalking.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Yeah, love it.
So Now that we have like nerdedout about like philosophy and
context and like all the thingsthat we find wonderful, um, when
we take it down to thepractical level, how can we

(01:12:36):
bring these divination toolsinto our lives and what can we
expect when we work with them?

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
I guess, yeah, I mean , I think it's.
I guess what I might recommendor advise or offer as a
suggestion is to start withcuriosity and to stay with
curiosity, um, and to be patientwith yourself and with Whatever

(01:13:15):
you're working with.
I think are for me, coming froma like good student kind of
upbringing.
There was this impulse to likelearn it all and like know it
all, and it's an expand, everexpanding universe like you just
can't.
You can only deepen yourunderstanding and also deepen

(01:13:37):
your relationship to the Mysteryat the same time.
Like they go together the moreyou know the more you don't know
, um, so you know, being willingto move slowly and gradually
and taking it in the you know itcan be fun, I guess, with tarot
, or helpful to start by pullinga card On days when you feel

(01:13:58):
like it in the morning and doingwhat you described like looking
at the image, seeing what comesup, coming to your own
conclusions.
Not looking at the book,because I'll also say that the
guidebooks that come in tarotdecks are usually small, so
they're they're not going togive you all the nuance and some
are definitely better thanothers, but, um, you might go to

(01:14:20):
that language and find that itdoesn't really fit what you're
feeling, because it's just oneinterpretation or just a couple
of interpretations.
So I think it's nice to sit withthe card, go through your day,
maybe look at the guidebook atthe end, but come back to the
card to say how did I feel thistoday?
Or like, how did I experiencethis?
Or where did this come up?
And Doing exactly what youdescribed, which is developing a

(01:14:42):
personal relationship to thearchetypes, and it's such a
heady uh Space.
So for humans, we need to, like, find practical examples and
applications, and your life is agreat place for that.
Um, so, yeah, I would come toit with respect, curiosity, with

(01:15:05):
the amount of investment youwant to make and no pressure on
yourself, and also never usingthe practice against yourself.
Like these cards think I'm ajerk?
Or?
Um, these cards are affirmingmy guilt or my judge, my self
judgment?
Um, I feel like they are alwaysWorking in our best and highest

(01:15:27):
interests, and so we shouldbring our thoughts to kind of
looking To that space first.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
Love it.
That feels really practical,actually, and not just with
divination, but with with life.
Um, I think, everything thatyou could have said, you could
have just taken the context ofTurn it out of it and it would
have applied to life in a reallybeautiful way Um, I think, what
I would like, teacher, and yeah, yeah.

(01:15:59):
I think what I would like to addis that, like this conversation
makes sense On your podcastbecause it is all about the
tarot and all about divination,it might not make as much sense
At the outset on my podcastbecause my podcast is called the
rooted business podcast andit's for entrepreneurs and in
Particularly I speak to, like,spiritual entrepreneurs, um, but

(01:16:23):
I'm going to argue that it'ssuch a beautiful way.
If I should back up a littlebit, my community is all about
how do we, despite the fact thatwe are born with this condition
of Uh being born in the modernage instead of the paleolithic

(01:16:43):
age, where we have to interactwith capitalism and it is a
necessary thing that we have todo on a daily basis Like, how
can we, even within the contextof that, still maintain
integrity To our roots, which isalways going to go back to
nature?
And so, if I can use and borrowthat analogy that you made

(01:17:05):
earlier of, like, this is a toolto help us Communicate with
ourselves and with nature.
That's how I see it is.
It is such a beautiful tool foranybody who's wanting to take
on any sort of project, whetherit's an art project or a
creative project or, you know abusiness project or the project

(01:17:25):
of a committed relationship like.
Like we can all benefit to lookat nature as a teacher In the
midst of all those big projects.
That can feel again like a very,very human experience.
But really we are, you know,humans having this experience
within this bigger cosmos ofnature, and I think we've

(01:17:47):
Divorced ourselves and separatedourselves to a point where,
like I look at so much of thedisease whether you want to
contextualize that in theconcept of like society or
bodies or culture orrelationships like so much of
those diseases come from us notbeing able to connect back to

(01:18:08):
our source, which is nature.
And so anytime I can have atool that I can reach for and
connect back to nature in someway and have, you know, like,
let's say, my launch isn't goingwell Like have that sort of
explained to the context ofnature, like I always find

(01:18:28):
comfort in that.
So that's why I see thepractical usage of this.
It's not, as you know, likeTell me the fortune, tell me the
future, sort of a way.
It is a, yet again, anotherteacher that, if you're open to

(01:18:49):
it, has so much depth andlearning that you can learn from
.

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
Yeah, that was beautifully said and I would
just add that I I feel like itcan be A nice navigation system
in a way, and I think even forthe wonderful people that you
work with, who are spiritualentrepreneurs and probably have
some distaste for capitalism butalso want to make money and

(01:19:18):
want to, um, have the resourcesthey need to live the life that
they want, there's this likeconstant struggle for how to
create that balance or how tolive inside of capitalism in
alternative kind of ways, and Ithink it's really hard, I know,
I know I think it's really hardto, yeah, to like pluck out the

(01:19:45):
implants that capitalism hasgiven us, because it's been.
You know, it's just like thewater we swim in and, yeah,
there's some parts that we cansee very clearly and other parts
that take longer to identify,and so I think tarot or the each
thing can kind of be a kind ofanti-capitalist Navigation

(01:20:06):
system or a way to like kind ofcheck in.
And also, I love to think aboutmy business as having its own,
as its own being, and like I'vehad an astrology chart done for
my business and I found out likeshe's very old and she's kind
of grumpy and she wants to helphumanity.
But she's kind of disappointedin them and I kind of think of

(01:20:28):
her, like Rebecca from um TedLasso, like I feel, like I want
to, I want her to have thatenergy, um, but I can do a tarot
reading to kind of talk to heryou know and see like what do
you need?
What are you wanting?
How do you feel right now?
Um?
So yeah, anyway there's.
It's a great space forcreativity too.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
Yeah, yeah love it.
So, for those of you whoenjoyed this conversation which
I hope you have, because we'venow talked for an hour and a
half almost oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
It's going to be longer, but can I show you the
cards I pulled real quick.
Yes, yes, please.
Okay, so the first one is thestudent of vessels.
This is the Liberation Tarotdeck and it's really interesting
because the guidebook says likedescribes each image.
It says a Chinese woman kind ofdancing in this like green
field.
So this is the page of cups,which is really about curiosity

(01:21:28):
and trying to understand thingsthat are not fully
understandable.
Like a traditional version ofthis card will have a fish
coming out and the person islike looking at the fish and
kind of wondering, like what'syour life?
Like when do you go?
What do you know?
And they don't speak the samelanguage, but they're like I
want to know you.
So we have this one and then wehave what's.

(01:21:48):
They call it the portal in thisdeck, but it's wheel of fortune
.
So wheel of fortune is kind oflike fortunes are spinning,
things are changing, likethere's opportunity or it's a
little bit of giving us throwingmore mystery icing on top.
It's like, yeah, something willbe shifting, but we're not
going to tell you what.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
So isn't that exciting?
Like I love all three of theimages that we pulled and how
they, like, each describe adifferent facet of this
relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:22:23):
I feel like I think we'll need to pull.
Do a little divination beforeeach episode.

Speaker 1 (01:22:30):
That's great.
So, yeah, if you are interestedin this kind of work, I want to
just like point you towardsCecily.
She's got a podcast out.
You know, I'm just saying thatbecause I want people from my
podcast to like go check her outand she has a year long program

(01:22:55):
.
You're going to have to remindme what it's called now because
yeah, it's called the creativemagic collective.
Yes, yes and I'm going to be init because I was part of the
process of you writing the salespage for it and I was like, oh
my God, this is what I need inmy life.

(01:23:17):
So I'm going to be in it and Ithink part of it is you get a
beautiful book that you havewritten and, again, YouTubers
get the joy of seeing this.
I'm so excited to get this inthe mail.
It's called tarot for creativespirits beautifully illustrated,

(01:23:39):
lots of journaling prompts.
Anything that Cecily does isdone with such deep intention
and I'm just, yeah, I'm reallyexcited for being part of your
creative magic collective.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
I'm so glad you've come on.
Come on the adventure, yeah.
And can I say for I don'tspecifically serve people who
run businesses, but I'm surethere are people in my audience
I know there are who run theirown spiritual practice and who
are spiritual entrepreneurs, andI encourage you to keep

(01:24:15):
listening to Kat's podcast, therooted business podcast, and
check out her business alchemy,alchemist, mentorship, which is
a really beautiful way to kindof reframe or investigate the
structure of your business anddevelop your offers and focus on
sustainability.
And there's a great discoveryprocess for discovering your

(01:24:37):
dowel and kind of like the rootof your purpose that's probably
connected to your business.
So highly recommend.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
Oh, I feel so seen Same, yeah.
And then if you're just wantingto like nerd out about dowelism
and each thing, I have a freecourse up where I take you
through 12 of the hexagrams tothe energetics of the year.
You can find all that info onmy website.

(01:25:06):
And then I'm going to startopening up like very, very
limited spots for each reading.
So those will be on a donationbased process and I'll be
donating all proceeds to Ihaven't decided which charity
yet.
It's probably going to be somesort of horse related charity,
because that is my life, and sothose will be opening up on my

(01:25:30):
website very soon as well.
So keep an eye out for all ofthat Please reserve one for me.
Yeah, and how can people findyou, cecily?

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):
Yeah, you can find me at typewriterterrocom or on
Instagram at typewriterterro,and my podcast is called your
Creative and Magical Life.

Speaker 1 (01:25:58):
Love it All the podcast places, yeah.
And then you have an option forfolks if they want to just buy
the book, right yeah you canjust buy the book.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
By the time this comes out, it will be up for
sale, so you can get the book onits own and work through it on
your own, though you can alsohave a beautiful community of
people like Kat and others whoare going on their own journey
along with you, and you gotgroup support.
You do journaling sessions onceor twice a week, so you can
just come and pull your card andwrite and yeah, so both are

(01:26:32):
available.
I get tarot readings as welland do coaching around
creativity and spirituality.

Speaker 1 (01:26:40):
Love it.
Yeah, I mean highly recommendbeing in a group situation with
Cecily.
I know I'm really reallylooking forward to it.
And then for myself, if you'recurious, you can find me
Kathosulee on Instagram orKathosuleecom, which is just my
website, and it's getting awhole new makeover right now,

(01:27:03):
and so in a couple of monthsit's going to look really
different.
But if there's any sort ofconnection point, those are the
two places, and I'm superfriendly, so you can just DM me
too.
That's just how I like to rollwith people.
So thanks for hanging out withus for this really lovely intro,
and then we'll be coming at youwith a new episode on a

(01:27:27):
seasonal basis.
Thanks, y'all.