If you are joining us today, you'll want to check out Episode 135 first. That's because I have invited Tarot Reader and Creativity Coach Cecily Sailer to join me 5 times this year on a series exploring the interplay between the Tarot and the IChing.
Episode 135 is the introduction to this series and it will give you context for our conversation today.
Today's episode is an exploration in the interwoven and interdependent relationships between Yin and Yang energetics. One of the things I love about learning from other forms of spirituality is that we are all essentially saying the same thing because we're all trying our best to explain what we're seeing in nature and what we're experiencing in our human lives with the imperfect language of words, archetypes, imagery and energy.
This episode is not just about theoretical knowledge; it's a practical toolkit for anyone looking to weave spiritual entrepreneurship with tangible healing. We share personal tales of introspection and emotional catharsis, illustrating how the symbolic language of Tarot and IChing can be a powerful ally in navigating life transitions.
We delve into the art of holding space, both for ourselves and in relationships, leveraging the ancient wisdom of both traditions to foster deeper connections and understanding. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or simply curious about these spiritually rooted traditions, this episode promises a rich tapestry of guidance for personal and collective evolution.
Not so subtle shoutout: Go check out Cecily's year-long program The Creative Magic Collective which combines the medicine of journaling with the wisdom found in Tarot. I have signed up as a student myself and am already loving being held in community.
Resources:
Cecily Sailer is a Tarot reader, writer, and coach who supports and mentors folks in developing a more mystical and spiritual relationship with their creativity, themselves, and their lives. Cecily is the founder of Typewriter Tarot, a project that support Creative Spirits by offering spaces of magic, creativity, inspiration, and community.
Connect with Cecily:
Kat HoSoo Lee is an Emotional Alchemy Coach, Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Emotional Alchemy Podcast.
She loves playing in the space where science and spirituality converge because this is where we get to experience emotional alchemy. In her work, she educates space-holders about somatic physiology and environmental biology so they can deepen their practices of listening and presence which ultimately helps them expand their capacity to hold space for others.
As a Spiritual Business Mentor, she guides soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. The work bridges the emotional landscape with practical tools which allow them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, relational marketing and purposeful service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello friends, welcome to this episode.
This is a joint episode, so youmight be listening to this on
the Rooted Business Podcast oryou might be listening to this
on Cecily Saylor's your Creativeand Magical Life Podcast.
Either direction that you'recoming from, welcome.
(00:22):
We're really excited to haveyou here, and Cecily and I are
doing a series based around bothof our nerdy yummy you know
just curiosities and passionsaround tarot and the I Ching.
(00:42):
Cecily is who I go to for tarotreadings and just wanting to
jam about, I don't know themysteries of the universe and
the cosmos.
Apparently, that's the rolethat you play in my life, yeah
and so, yeah, we're reallyexcited to have you here for the
(01:06):
series.
If this is your first timetuning into this episode, we did
an introductory episode on mypodcast.
That's going to be episode 135.
Sense of like what the overlayof our conversation for the year
(01:29):
is going to be like.
So go check that one out beforeyou come and listen to this one
.
I think that they'll all bestandalones, but if you're like
needing context and a little bitmore of the vocabulary, we go
through a lot of that in episode135.
So, yeah, thanks for being here, cecily yeah, thanks for being
(01:49):
here.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Cecily fun and incredibly stimulating for my
brain and my spirit and mydivination nerdiness same, thank
you same.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Um, I I mean just even since the beginning of this
little project together, you'veasked questions in such a way
that it's like broken my brain alittle bit and so, like you
know, I'm just like, ah, I needto talk to her because, because
that broke my, my brain and mylogical side was just like, oh
(02:16):
my gosh, we need to bring somecontext to this.
So, um, yeah, we're going toget into some of those questions
that I've been, I've beenpercolating with and and really
playing with.
I'm excited, yeah, so, givingyou a little bit of context for
this episode.
So in the last episode episode135, you went through each of
(02:40):
the energies of the tarot system, so pentacles, swords, wands
and cups, and you did a reallybeautiful job of using just like
words to explain what each ofthose.
Is there a word that like sortof describes each of those
indexes?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, well, I would just say, you know, there's the
symbol in the suit, and thenthere's the element it's
connected to and then there'sthe parts of human existence
that those elements representright, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So just as a brief overview, I took notes, as you
were.
You were talking last time.
You were saying that thepentacles are associated with
earth.
It's all about creation, natureand cosmos.
Swords associated with fireit's descriptions of okay, sorry
, uh, sorry, say that again.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So swords and air swords are air and like the mind
, communication, logic, thoughts.
Okay, take over, do the okay dothe last two the wands are fire
and that's like spark of life,like vitality, just yeah, like
(03:55):
life force, energy, and alsolike creativity, passion, bodily
, bodily activation, um, andthen the cups are water and they
represent emotions, the heart,like the feeling, part of being
human awesome.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
So, based on just how she described it, I was like,
oh, this is like there's fourdifferent pairings of trigrams.
So each hexagram that you seewithin the I Ching is made up of
two trigrams, meaning two setsof three lines, and the way that
we describe that energy is,through this, like family system
(04:40):
.
So heaven and earth are likethe mother and father system.
So heaven and earth are likethe mother and father.
And to me, like when you weretalking about the pentacles and
earth, I was like, oh, that'sheaven and earth energy.
Um, when you were talking aboutthe sword energy, it's the
first daughter and the first son, which is fire and water.
Um, when you're talking aboutwand energy, I thought
(05:04):
immediately of like wind andthunder, that like life force,
movement kind of an energy.
So that's the second daughterand second son.
And when you were sharing aboutthe cups, it's like lake and
mountain.
So those are the, the trigrampairings, and that's the the
youngest, um, daughter and son.
(05:25):
And so today we're gonna focuson the pairings of heaven and
earth and I've um pulled acouple of hexagrams that we can
talk about.
Um, when it comes to this, thisdynamic, and then cecily is
also going to bring in herwisdom, bringing in some of the,
(05:46):
the card energy and how shemight describe.
I mean, ultimately, what itcomes down to is there are a lot
of traditional systems that arebased around interacting with
nature, observing nature,witnessing nature and being like
how do I describe this kind ofindescribable thing?
(06:09):
And you know, a lot of thescholars back in East Asia
looked to them and came up withthis like hexagram system, and
in a completely different partof the world, in several
thousand years later, anentirely different system was
(06:32):
created.
But we're all sort of talkingabout the same thing and I think
that that's the piece that Ireally want to like hammer in
here is the more and more Ilearn about traditional wisdom
and medicine, we're all sayingthe same thing, we're all
walking up the same mountain, sothere's no like dogma here.
And also wanting to note thatyou know there's not going to be
(06:55):
a perfect overlay between the IChing and the Hexagram, the I
Ching and tarot systems.
You know, even just in thisconversation we were like
planning to to have thisconversation.
You know I was like okay, sothere's four hexagrams that I
want to talk about, and thenCecily came up with, I think,
one, two, three, four, fivetarot cards that came up for her
(07:17):
as like as she was like doing alittle bit of the research
around the hexagrams, and so youknow, I wish my like, my like
young, logical brain wants to belike.
This equals that, but that'snot ever the case, and so if
that's the part of your brainthat is like itching warning
there's not try to describe thisbeautiful world that we live in
and how we interact with withinthat world.
(07:39):
So, yeah, any thoughts beforewe jump in.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I feel like these are nicely complementary in many
ways.
But in one sense I feel like theI Ching kind of turns to nature
more completely as the likeenergetic, as an energetic guide
(08:23):
for like looking at life.
And I think tarot does have amore human focus.
Like nature is definitelydefinitely there, but it because
maybe that's because it's alittle more modern and it was
developed kind of when there wasa bit more like humans, more
(08:44):
human density, I guess, um, andso I think that's kind of cool
that, like you know, if you're atarot person and you open up to
the I Ching, you get to kind ofgo into nature more deeply and
maybe, if you're an I Chingperson coming to tarot, you get
to kind of take that reallynature-based and of course, the
(09:05):
I Ching like when you'reot youget to kind of take that really
nature-based.
And of course, the I Ching likewhen you're looking in the
divination books, those naturalenergies are translated into
like a message for the human tolike guide through life.
So the end result is kind ofthe same.
But yeah, if you're an I Chingperson coming to tarot, there's
probably more like a human focusin that, one that you can
(09:28):
overlay with I Chingunderstanding or something.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, love it it does .
And I'd say that, like evenwithin the I Ching, we have them
split into two differentsections the upper canon and the
lower canon.
The upper canon is more of adescription of nature, so, like,
(09:54):
when you get through like thefirst part of of the number
system, we're more in likedescription of nature, land, and
then when you get to the lowercanon, it's more of like the
human experience within nature,and so, um, I'm trying to think
of yeah, the hexagrams that Ipulled are all within the upper
(10:16):
canon, which you know sort ofmakes sense in terms of like
this is more of of descriptionsof of nature and the cosmos.
Yeah, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And the upper canon is the first 30 hexagrams.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I believe, so I have to yes First 30.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
That's correct.
I took that you said that lasttime.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So I learned from you .
These are like the like detailsthat my numbers dyslexic brain
just really struggles with.
Actually, that's one of thethings that broke my brain the
other um day when I waslistening to your podcast is you
had an entire podcast about thehigh priestess and in it you
had this very like, almost likeinnocent and like off the cuff
(11:13):
question of like why is the highpriestess number two instead of
number one?
Um, and that was the.
That was the question that likebroke my brain for the last
like two and a half weeks.
Um, and like the I Ching.
I was just showing you apicture of this and so if you're
(11:34):
on YouTube, you can, you cansee the picture as well.
But, um, I have this book andlike the I Ching originally was
like a circular system withoutlike a number one and a number
two.
It's only when king wen cameinto the picture where he put
numbers um, just to help peopleaccess it a little bit easier.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
And and there's something about like the
numbering system that like hurtsmy brain yeah, it creates that
false linearity and when cat washolding up this image it looks
like a mandala kind of like ithas.
It's a circle of differentlayers and almost like a dial
(12:19):
you could use to like find yourhexagram or something.
But I think one thing tarot, uh,tarot kind of became like a
gateway drug to like getting tothis the sense of like the wheel
of time, and that we movethrough time more in a spiral
(12:39):
kind of way than a linear, justlike day after day, year after
year, and that was so refreshingto me.
And once you kind of break thatpart, then you can also break
apart these other concepts oflike ladders and hierarchies and
other places that linearity isfalsely imposed.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Even though numbers are helpful in life, like
they're not, they're not bad butum, yeah, um, actually, before
we get into the hexagrams, um,can you speak a little bit to
that like why is the magiciannumber one?
Why is the priestess number two?
(13:22):
And to me, I want to frame thisin a lot of the language that
we use around, I think, tarot,and also the I Ching there's
feminine and masculine dynamicsthat show up, and I really want
to, anytime we're talking aboutthese energies, want to like,
(13:48):
anytime we're talking aboutthese energies, it's not in this
like, highly gendered way.
It's like this is why I thinkthat, like, yin and yang are
more accessible ways to talkabout this yin being more of
what we consider feminine in thewestern world, yang being more
of what we consider masculine inthe, in the modern world, and
and so like.
We all have these energieswithin us in different beautiful
(14:08):
titration levels, and so I wantus to sort of I don't know,
this is something that I'mcurrently struggling with it's
like how do we talk about thiswithout becoming super rigid in
gendered ways of thinking?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, I think that's something we're kind of
exploring in Typewriter Tarot ina larger sense, large in a
larger sense, like we recentlydid a blog post from this
wonderful non-binary writernamed robin gow, and um, they're
(14:49):
writing about, uh, like how wecan kind of pass through or like
destabilize or deconstructgender representations in tarot
and, you know, even if the cardsare showing us like a, what
appears to be a definitive likewoman, um, and a definitive man
(15:13):
and like gender is very binaryin the tarot.
It's kind of one or the notalways.
Actually, there are many humanfigures, even in older decks
where it's like it could be youknow, it's open to
interpretation.
but, um, as the viewer, we getto bring a deconstructed lens to
it and even if we see a femalefigure, we can refer to them
(15:34):
with non-binary pronouns or wecan think of them just as yin
energy versus like literalfemale.
You know the the like, very, um,separate delineation of like
male energy and female energy.
Um, yeah, so there's like, asjust the interpreter and the
user, we can kind of play andexplore and I think we can ask
(15:57):
these questions that break ourbrains, like what would it mean
if the magician is a woman or is, um, you know, a non, someone
who's on the non-binary spectrumof gender expression?
But to come to your questionabout the magician and the high
priestess and why one might befirst and the other is second,
(16:18):
and in your Creative and MagicalLife podcast there's a whole
episode on the fool, who is likethe zero in.
That doesn't mean like a loser,that just means like he's the
number zero and the foolrepresents, like the protagonist
of the tarot, the one that'slike starting this journey and
going to go meet all these otherarchetypes and be shaped and
(16:41):
learn and challenge throughmeeting the magician, meeting
the high priestess.
So the magician is one and highpriestess is two, and there's
also whole episodes on themagician and a whole episode on
the high priestess, and in bothepisodes we kind of play with
this question for a moment andthe magician is the one who
manifests or uses the elements.
(17:04):
You'll see.
See on the magician's table, asymbol from every element.
So they're all there and themagician is working with the
elements available in theuniverse and using a magic wand
and creating an intention, andthen about to move through some
ritualized action to actualizetheir vision and bring it into
(17:25):
the world.
And then the high priestessthat follows the magician is not
doing anything, she's justseated and she's seated behind,
or usually she's seated in frontof two columns and between the
columns is a like a curtain andbehind the curtain is an ocean.
So she's kind of seated at thisportal and this.
(17:48):
The idea is like she has accessto everything behind the
curtain and she can kind ofshare it with us.
And then you know we get to.
In each card that we get, weget to see, like how am I, what
would it be like for me to be inthis position, to be in the
position of manifesting me, tobe in this position, to be in
the position of manifesting, orto be in the position of
(18:09):
accessing ancient wisdom, whichis what's represented by that
ocean.
That's like feeling andintuition and ancestral wisdom
and the wisdom of the cosmos.
She just sits there and, kindof like, can access it as she
needs to.
She's receptive and she's areceiver and the magician's like
the wand and the maker, um, andso it's interesting.
(18:33):
They're like the very beginningof the journey and if we think
of, like human development, themagician kind of does this, like
I describe it in that episode,like even when we are babies,
and we start to realize, likewhen we cry, if we, you know, if
we're hungry and we have acaring parent, then someone will
(18:54):
bring us something to satisfythe hunger.
And it's just that mechanism oflike, when I act, there will be
a response whether it's like toignore or to like get your
needs met.
But that very that's like themost basic kind of version of
the magician.
So in a like human developmentway, it kind of comes.
We can see how it comes first.
(19:15):
But my question is like how dowe know how to act?
Like the high priestess givesus this sense of like what's
here, what am I feeling calledto do?
Um, what kind of information isavailable to me to guide me?
And so, in another way, like inlife as a grown-up, I would
(19:38):
like to live by being the highpriestess first and feeling like
where's my intuition taking me?
And then step into the magicianto work my spell or refine my
vision and take the action andthen see it develop.
So it's interesting too thatthe two we could look at this as
(20:00):
like why is the magician first,when maybe it's better to
actually know before we act?
But conversely, sometimes wedon't know until we act.
We take action and we're likethat worked, that didn't work,
that was really weird.
And then we kind of add that toour wisdom, that refines our
action.
And then I'll say a coupleother things and then try to cut
(20:25):
myself off.
But, um, I think too for humansin terms of thinking about yang
and yin energy, and I'm curiouswhat you think about this cat,
but it's like, the more we knowabout the cosmos, it looks like
a big void, like there's just alot of open space where there
appears to be nothing.
(20:45):
And maybe that's a very Westernview and maybe other cultures
just totally never saw it thatway.
But when we're thinking abouthow did this all get here, that
big question that every human isasking there had to be, we're
like.
Well, something had to initiateit, something had to go from
nothing to something, and Ithink that is probably Yang
energy and maybe why humans putthe Yang first before the
(21:10):
stillness and the sitting.
And the only last thing I'llsay is just, it's interesting.
The next two cards are theEmpress and the Emperor and in
that dynamic Yin comes first andYang comes next.
So it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Interesting.
Yeah, no, I love it.
And again, this is where, likeyou're using language that I
would also use to describe yinand yang dynamics.
You know, and I love that, thefool is first, because that's
exactly what I was thinking islike from the void.
(21:46):
Then comes this, likeseparation into two and young
being, that initiatory lifeforce, movement, that experience
, and then like in the humanform.
(22:12):
I would also call that like thefeelings land, where you know
we're talking about how angerfeels within the body before
there's an action being made andin that action happening.
That's like the expression ofyang, like pushing forward and
moving that through.
And when we're talking aboutthe human body, it's like the
functionality of the organsrather than the form of the
organ.
What does the stomach do versuslike, what does the stomach
(22:32):
look like?
And then on the flip side, youknow that being the opposite,
with yin energy, of yin beingresponsive, yin being form, yin
being holding, um, holdingcontaining, as you were saying.
That like intuition, um, thatlike stillness versus action.
(22:58):
You know all like we're alltalking about the same things,
right and interesting that evenwithin the I Ching we also have
the hexagrams one and two, onebeing full Yang lines, so heaven
over heaven, if we're lookingat them broken down into
trigrams, and then hexagram twobeing full yin lines, full
(23:22):
broken lines, and so that beingearth over earth, and you know
everything about this is likelike I really don't think that
we can get away from like this,like circular action.
You know it's like if we'rethinking about the Big Bang as
(23:45):
being like young energy.
You know, once we startcontracting and I think quantum
physicists talk about like thebig crunch that's coming
(24:06):
everything is always on thislike like inhale exhale scale.
Whether we're talking about ourown breath and we're talking
about the breath of the universe, you know, everything fits
within and, and what I loveabout the I Ching is that like
we're basically breaking downokay, so here's this like big
breath in, big breath out right.
And then how do we break downall those little slivers of
experience in between the breathand finding the nuance in
(24:30):
between the breath of likeinhale and exhale?
And that's really I think manypeople have spent their entire
lives trying to understand allof that.
I know that I'm going to spendthe rest of my life trying to
understand all that and nevereven get close to it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So yeah, the inhale and the exhale and from like, as
we've started this exploration,you know my initial
understanding I was like, oh,okay, itching was like how do
(25:12):
you do it right?
Like, okay, you take coins,then you count the, they get
this many numbers and then yougo to the line and you write the
line.
Then you find in the book andas we get deeper it it's like
okay, no, each.
Well, also I Ching or moreimportantly, is taking like
every trigram is connected to anatural, like force or element
(25:35):
or concept, and the hexagrams,and so what I'm noticing is,
just for the tarot people comingto this, that what I Ching
offers us is a like.
It seems like its basis is likehow do these energies, what
energy do two energies createwhen they come together and they
move in this particulardirection?
(25:57):
And how is that?
Like life, and so there's, it'sjust like so energy focused,
and I think that's so beautifuland exquisite and like endlessly
fascinating and I just want to.
That's kind of how I see the IChing doing that thing you're
describing like what are all theexperiences inside the
(26:18):
in-breath and the out-breath,the expansion?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
and the contraction.
I want to shift the conversationa little bit, just because this
is something that I've likebeen dying to just like chew on
with you, and it's beensomething that I've been really
noticing since our lastconversation that we had to
record, which is I always wantto take this like esoteric
(26:42):
practice and bringing it intopractical land and how does this
help our lives?
Right, and so a lot of mypeople who are going to be
coming to this are going to bespiritual entrepreneurs, meaning
that a lot of them are spaceholders.
But I think that thisconversation would be relevant
for anybody who's just like ahuman trying to human with other
humans and like finding thatsense of balance, of
(27:05):
self-regulation andco-regulation.
I've been in this place of justlike noticing and witnessing
what it feels like in my ownbody when I'm holding space for
somebody who comes in with likea lot of energy, and what kind
of dynamic do I need to hold,what kind of like on the like
(27:28):
yin-yang pole?
Which part of that do I need tobring up in order to meet that
person's energy?
Right?
And so just noticing in myselflike hey, when somebody comes in
with like a lot of like myself.
Like hey, when somebody comesin with like a lot of like, um,
emotionality, and they're justlike in this like, as you were
(27:50):
sort of talking about that likedevelopmental stage of like I, I
have so many feelings and Idon't know really what I want
and I'm just like, in totalfeelings, land, right, there's a
lot of like what we wouldconsider to be like yang energy
and that like expression of likeright.
And so then it is my job as thespace holder to bring in, bring
(28:12):
up more of my yin energy, tosort of like hold and be still
and allow that person to like gothrough whatever tantrum their
body or their spirit reallyneeds to go through and help
them feel safe in that momentenough to like move through and
find completion within that,that, that cycle of that emotion
(28:32):
.
On the other side, ifsomebody's coming in and they're
like feeling really stuck andfrozen and like just kind of
deflated and collapsed, then mywork is about okay.
So how can we help activate andbring a little bit of movement
into this person's system?
(28:53):
And so bringing up my yangenergy and this is where I think
that like nuance and skill andthe art of holding space is so
important, because with eitherof these.
You don't want to be too stillor too mobilizing, otherwise
you're going to blow that personout of their feelings again.
And so I love being able tobring in the energy of the
(29:21):
initiator of hexagram one, youknow, of the responder in
hexagram two.
And again, if we're going touse tarot language, it's like
the initiator being like themagician energy.
You know, hey, like you've gotall these elements sitting right
in front of you.
Which one do you want to pickup?
You know, with the, with thehigh priestess, it's like you
(29:45):
have so much infinite wisdomwithin you.
How do you want to access that?
Like?
Can we slow down enough toaccess that, instead of just
like running all the time andforgetting to like look around
and see the ocean, you know?
And so that's been somethingthat I've really been been
playing with in terms of how dowe take this thing that I love
(30:10):
interacting with on the page andwith the coins and now with the
cards, and actually bring thatinto our everyday lives in such
a way that it helps us relate toeach other, that it helps us
relate to each other, and sothat's like a big unanswered and
(30:30):
continuing to evolve questionfor myself.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah, it's so subtle, for one thing, sometimes, like,
sometimes it is big energy orreally frozen energy, and
sometimes it's a mixture, or youknow you're going to get both
in a session and you kind ofcontribute as the space holder
to kind of helping create thatwave, or you're trying to read
(30:54):
like what energy is there andhow it needs to move and how you
can kind of create the poolthat the wave can crash into, or
like build up from um, and Ithink, like taking that that
gives me like an extra layer ofperspective on looking at the
(31:15):
cards.
And it's kind of like, if youare new to tarot, let's say, and
you're just pulling a card, Ithink you can just start with
this question of like, is thismore yang energy or is it more
yin?
And if you have two cardstogether, I feel like those can
function like trigrams in the IChing, where it's like, okay,
(31:36):
what's the yin-yang ratio maybeof the card you're looking at
for the two cards and how doesthat interact together and how
does like one help the other, orhow does how do the two
complicate each other, perhaps,and that can kind of help you
see, like what the issue mightbe that you're struggling with,
(31:56):
or it can maybe present a wayforward, like, oh, I'm
definitely in this energy andthis other card is maybe showing
me a way to shift it or to turnit into the wisdom.
Turn it into, like find the,the juicy nectar in there.
That has some guidance.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, yeah and something that I really just
like love is, I feel likeanytime.
So I tend to be a little bitmore of a young personality.
I am definitely a lot ofmovement, a lot of energy,
anybody who follows human design.
(32:39):
I'm a manifesting generator andI'm like that definition, like
to a T manifesting generator andI'm like that definition, like
to a T.
And so anytime I pull from the IChing, I feel like I get lots
of invitations to be in bystillness, like to be in by yin,
and for me the I Ching has beena largely self-regulatory tool
(33:07):
of like hey, like you have yinwithin yourself.
It's like almost a reminder oflike hey, you have yin within
yourself.
Can you bring a little bit moreof that forward in this moment,
because you're kind of lackingthat and it's so funny because I
, you know, I think last time Iwas like I should stop being
surprised by the, by the coinsthat I, you know, throw, because
(33:27):
I swear there are hexagrams inhere that are young oriented and
I like almost never get them.
I'm just like that, like neverhappens, um, and so like there
are points of frustrationsometimes where I'm like there's
gotta be a better answer thanjust like sit still and be with
(33:49):
this in my frustration.
But what I love about the seriesthat we're doing also what I
love about, you know, thecreative magic collective that
you've created is that it takes,because I think that for a lot
of us've taken thisself-regulatory tool and made it
(34:25):
into a co-regulatory tool andbrought it into community, which
is something that the medicineof that is not appreciated
enough.
So I'm curious if you couldspeak a little bit to your
reasons why Sorry, my voice isbeing froggy um, I'm curious if
(34:52):
you could speak to your reasonswhy you brought that in and um
how, in the context of a group,we can sort of like play with
these yin-yang energies in adifferent and new dynamic than
maybe what you do on your own inyour own sort of like private
(35:13):
practice.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, thank you for that question.
I so the the creative magiccollective is centered around a
book I created called tarot forcreative spirits, and it has a
journaling prompt for every cardin the tarot deck, and I
designed the book to draw on allthe things I've learned so far
(35:38):
about tarot and reading tarotfor other people, and also all
the things I've learned so farin coaching people around their
creativity or their spirituality, or living authentically with
their creativity andspirituality and developing
magic in their lives, and so theprompts kind of bring all of
(35:59):
that together, or that was theattempt, and I, for one thing, I
think it's like it's a big book, like right now it's like a
hundred.
There's a hundred sheets ofpaper in it and some of those
are tarot spreads.
But, um, you know, when you geta whole book of journaling
props, it's like what are theodds that on your own, with life
(36:19):
being how it is, that you'regoing to do them all or even
half of them?
So part of it, like the group,is for the sense of like
motivation.
Or, you know, I'm interested inwhat's happening for other
people and I'm interested to seewhat happens for me and how
these journeys kind of coincideor overlap at different times.
(36:39):
And also having a container.
Yeah, you know, just having acontainer or a reason to kind of
keep going.
And then, additionally, I thinkyou know the questions in the
book are not designed to likehelp you unpack all of your
trauma.
You know they're not meant tolike excavate deeply all of your
(36:59):
wounds or you know anythinglike that, and they're not super
light either, and they vary.
There's some creative prompts,anything like that, and they're
not super light either, and theyvary.
There's some creative promptsand some that are.
They're really meant, you know,self-dialogue is the goal,
sorry, the goal here and to helpyou know yourself.
You know different parts ofyourself on a deeper level, and
I think that's hard to do on ourown.
(37:19):
It's like how do I engage withself-investigation, like what
should I do?
So the prompts are meant tojust like take you there from a
lot of different angles.
But in the self-investigationand I think you know you made
this point that, like inside theself, is this whole galaxy of
stuff from.
You know, if you're 30 or 40,you've got a lot of stuff in
(37:41):
this galaxy and it's allconnected.
So even if you're 30 or 40,you've got a lot of stuff in
this galaxy and it's allconnected.
So even if you're tugging atone piece, these other things
may surface, and so I thinkhaving to hold that just on your
own can be a lot, and it's beenmy experience in my own journey
, from living in a way that feltvery miserable, where I
(38:06):
suffered tremendously, tofeeling a lot more agency and
like magic and creativity comingback into my life.
Being in groups was a reallyuncomfortable at the beginning,
but also a huge part of mygrowth and allowing me to kind
of come out and feel okay, justsaying what I needed to say and
(38:29):
having people feel how they feltabout it.
I still struggle with that,definitely, but yeah, so the
group is meant to kind of holdfolks through the process and
also give them the space to bewitnessed in what they're
finding about themselves and tohave a space to like speak it
and not just write it down andto also process.
(38:50):
Like you know, just having adialogue with yourself is good,
but then there's that questionthat you also came back to.
It's like so what do I do withthat like?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
how do I?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
what do I do?
This is at odds with the way mylife is like.
This means changing something.
Change is scary.
And then there's other peoplein the group who are wrestling
with the same kinds of questionsin their own ways, and you
create this constellationthrough the group of people who
can relate to each other ondifferent fronts at different
moments.
And I apologize, that was along answer, but it was such a
(39:23):
good question, but those aresome of the reasons yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, and to me, like , I think that this is where,
like, we need both, you know,yeah, I think that you know,
like nervous system regulation,like people who are like nervous
system nerds there's a lot ofemphasis that I see on
(39:49):
self-regulation, like how do youhold yourself, how do you be
with yourself with these bigfeelings, how do you, you know,
come to your problems in themost regulated way possible?
And to me, it's I've alwaysneeded the dance of both is like
(40:13):
, again, if we're talking aboutthe energy of the universe, like
I need the exhale and I alsoneed the inhale from my peers,
you know, and I also need theinhale from my peers, you know.
And when we don't, when we findourselves like in a place where
we're like, oh, I'm superself-aware, I've done all this
work and yet I don't want toshare with anybody else, and I
(40:36):
don't want to be vulnerable andI don't want to be like share
all these like scary bits withanybody else, it's like, oh,
you've just hit an edge in yourhealing path.
That, like is asking to betended to.
And I think that that's wherethese group things are so, so
important.
It's also a reason all thethings that you were saying
about.
(40:56):
You know, your beautifulcollective, which you know a
little biased because I'm partof that collective, like they're
all the same reasons that Icreated my programs that are
also group oriented is becausethere's only a certain amount of
work that we can do in these,like solo, siloed, hermit shell,
(41:19):
like crab existence where, likewhen we start finding these
safe places and I think it'simportant that we, like, are
finding places that we belongand we find places that really
seek to create as much safety aspossible, knowing that, like,
(41:40):
safety is also a co-creativeprocess between participant and
the space holder there comes anew layer of healing.
As you have your story sharedand as you have that mirrored
back, and you know, I think thatthis is where we can start to
see this like dismantling of thehyper-independent self, or the
(42:03):
hyper like codependent self aswell, is when we start to see
this like flexible breathbetween being able to
self-regulate and co-regulateand knowing what your needs are
within that context.
And to me again, this goes backto the same energy that we've
(42:24):
been talking about this wholetime of magician, high priestess
, initiating and responding.
It's the same vocabulary.
It's just like we're trying togive you a little bit of a sense
of how can we take the energyof the cosmos and bring it into
your everyday life, and to meit's that like inhale exhale
(42:45):
between self-regulation andco-regulation.
That's like an important partof, I think, everyone's journey
and we don't give as much valueto the co-regulation when that's
really something that we needas social animals.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, and it's like everything you said was so
beautiful, and also it's likewhy are we healing ourselves?
to just like stay alone and likefeel self righteous because we
got really healed.
Like we have to live in theworld and we have to interact
with stuff and including lots ofhumans, and usually our
(43:24):
motivation for healing isbecause our human relationships
are repeatedly not working theway that we want to, and that's
not entirely on us, but yeah, solike having a group container
where it's really establishedlike here's what we're exploring
, here's what we're exploring,here's what we're exploring
together, here's how we want tohold each other in.
(43:46):
This experience gives everyonea safe place, or a mostly safe
place, to um, start practicingthat before we even take it into
, like the relationships in ourlives that feel the most
vulnerable or tricky orsensitive or have a lot of
baggage in them.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah, and I would say that, you know again, I sort of
like speak to my people asbeing space holders, but you
know, this is anybody who is ina romantic relationship, is a
parent, is a friend, anybodywho's just relating with any
other human the more you're ableto find that flexibility
(44:30):
between inhale and exhale andbetween initiation and
responsiveness I think that'sthe muscle that we're flexing
when we are holding space foranother human and it's one of
the things that I say repeatedly, over and over and over again
is, you know, the best thingthat you can do for your clients
if you're a space holder, is todo the self-work on yourself,
(44:54):
so that when somebody comes inwith really big angry energy
that feels really big and likeexpansive, or they come in with
energy that they've internalizedand have shoved down into their
body, you can then track thatand mirror that and be like,
okay, I see that and Iunderstand it, because I've felt
(45:16):
and understood that myself.
And so the counterpoint to yourcollapsed anger that you have,
you know, directed inwardtowards your own body and
towards your own spirit, let mejust like give, bring it,
breathe in a little bit of yangenergy, so that there's a
counterpoint to it.
(45:36):
You know, so that there'ssomething that like that the yin
energy wants to like maybe justpeek out and be like hey, I
maybe want to talk about this alittle bit.
And again, I think it's wherethat nuance of if somebody is
super collapsed, I don't want tocome in with this raw, raw
(45:58):
cheerleader energy.
It it's about like, can I bringin, just like one line of yang
to counterbalance all of youryin lines where it's feeling
really stuck and heavy?
Or if somebody is coming in withthis like big, like, fuck the
world, like that kind of energy,it's like okay, so like, let me
(46:19):
bring in one line of yin energyso that we can counterbalance
and bring a little bit ofstillness without making people
feel misunderstood in thatwounded little kid part selves,
and how we're able to hold allthose parts for ourselves which
(46:46):
I think you know, tarot anditching are beautiful ways to
like, like, allow those parts tocome out and play and and being
able to offer that in serviceto our communities and to our
families and to the people thatwe love.
And, if you're a space holder,to our clients and to the people
that we love and if you're aspaceholder to our clients.
It's such a beautiful gift andreally I think of it as like the
(47:10):
alchemy of the universe playingout in the human experience.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
So good, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a perfect summation andI love that analogy of like
you've got six yen and I'm goingto bring one yang, or vice
versa.
It's like the hexagram one andtwo and magician and high
priestess.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Another way that we can arrange these yin and yang
lines just in the most simpleway possible is um, found in
hexagrams 11 and 12.
Um, and you brought in a coupleof tarot cards that you wanted
to talk about with those.
But, um, if I can just sort oflike very simply explain
(48:12):
hexagram 11 is earth over heaven.
So yin lines over yang lines,so three yin lines over three
yang lines.
Um, it is actually the tattoothat's on my wrist here.
It's my favorite hexagram.
It's a very, very importantreminder for me.
And then the counterpoint ofthat hexagram, the opposite of
(48:37):
that hexagram, is when heaven isover earth.
And so that's the three yanglines over three yin lines.
And I'll talk about hexagram 11.
First.
It's Tai, which is atranslation, for that is
advanced.
All the English translationsthat I'm using are coming from
(48:58):
the Huang Huang text that Ireferenced in episode 135.
And I'll put that in the shownotes here as well.
But the reason why Tai isanother translation for it is
peace.
(49:18):
The sort of image that comes tomind when I think about this is
like when there's a reallybeautiful stream, that's like
running with like no blocks inthe way.
There's like flow, there's ease, and the reason for that is
(49:39):
because earth, which is yinenergy, has a downward sort of
trajectory.
Heaven, which is yang energy,has an upward sort of trajectory
, and so when you have earthmoving down and heaven moving up
, there's like this beautifulplace where they meet, and like
that's where magic happens.
I think about this is whereconception would also happen is
(50:03):
when these two energies are ableto sort of meet.
While hexagram 12 is like itseems kind of counterintuitive,
and it took me a while to figurethis out, but we look outside
and heaven is over earth, right,and so it seems like that's
what nature is showing us.
But when you look at it interms of yin and yang energies,
(50:25):
heaven moves upwards, earthmoves downward, and so when we
play with that, it's likethey're moving away from each
other, and so there's aseparation, and that's why they
call it hindrance is thetranslation for hexagram 12.
And so now we're seeing whathappens when the magician and
(50:49):
the high priestess come togetherand what happens when they're
in disagreement, and to methat's like okay, so it can be
just the flip of a coin.
You know, like they're so closeto each other in terms of like
being able to work together andbeing able to not work together.
(51:13):
And so this is where we ashumans have to come in and say
you know, how can I insertmyself into whatever situation
that you're in, whateverdifficulty you're having, and
maybe you're receiving thishexagram for a reason.
What can we do to sort ofinfluence the like meeting back
(51:35):
of yin and yang again, and alsoit's a natural part of the cycle
as well, so like being able tolike accept that this is a part
of of our seasons.
So, um, hexagram 11 and 12 arealso title hexagrams and what
(51:55):
what that means is like they'rerepresentative of particular
times of the year.
And so hexagram 11 is February,right around February, and so
it's like that potential energycoming to life, like, if you
think about all the things thatare happening, if you live in a
world, or if you live in a partof the world where you have
(52:17):
seasons, like that's when, likeall the springtime energy is
like starting to percolate tothe surface and you can really
see that like earth meetingheaven, that like yin and yang
coming into marriage, sort ofenergy.
And August is the month that isdescribed by Hexagram 12.
And it's almost like hey, likewe have completed the harvest
(52:40):
cycle we're at the end and Ithink that you were sharing one
of the tarot cards has this ideaof like oh, this is a really
heavy burden and I need to putit down, and so that hindrance
is not always about there'ssomething bad or negative
(53:00):
happening.
It's like this is a part of thecycle where you might need to
put something down in order forthe cycle to continue.
So, yeah, I'll pause there,because I just said a lot of
things.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Yeah, it's been.
So.
Yeah, like I said, fun for mybrain to kind of think about
these two hexagrams and whatcards might pair up with them.
And it's so interesting, youknow that they have like a
timing and it's like a seasonaltiming and this like elemental
(53:34):
direction.
So I'll start with hexagram 11.
And I went back and watchedyour Taoist lunar calls which
others can go, um, access, um,and you had a whole, a whole
class, a whole workshop onhexagram 11 and because of the
(53:59):
kind of springtime association,the sort of ease and like
tranquility quality of thehexagram I'm just looking at my
notes really quick this kind oflike an equilibrium there, this
like the elements interacting ina resonant kind of way.
(54:22):
I think one thing maybe Chrissaid this in the daoist lunar
call, I don't remember, but itwas like yang coming out of
slumber, like coming out ofshavasana or something, and so
then you're you're like resetand you can go create, and so
the the card that I most see forthis hexagram 11 of ease and
peace and advance is the ace ofpentacles.
(54:45):
The card I'm holding says theseare coins if you're watching on
youtube, um, so this is theearth energy and this one always
reminds me of a seed.
So, like, everything that isneeded to create the form is
contained in this like smallthing, and it needs the heaven,
(55:06):
it needs the earth, like itneeds a good place to rest and
it needs, um, that activatingenergy of this hexagram to start
to unfurl and become.
And so this kind of feels like,um, like the magician enters
here to sort of do theactivation and create the magic
(55:27):
that will take.
Whatever the seed representsLike, let's say, it's your book
project or something you'readding to your business, and the
magician has, like, visualizedit and created some intentions
around it and then will create,like you know, needs to create
good conditions for itsmanifesting and then needs to
(55:48):
sort of like put it down andalso tend to it so it comes out
and the high priestess sort ofexists inside the seed.
It's like all of theinformation, the genetic, the
DNA information, all the ancientlegacy.
Let's say this was an acornthat would make an oak tree.
That one acorn has all thishigh priestess energy of knowing
(56:10):
what it needs to be in responseto its environment as those
conditions unfold, and kind of asecondary card.
I felt with that same hexagramwas the Ace of Swords, which is
like card.
I felt with that same hexagramwas the ace of swords, which is
like the.
You know, both aces are alwayslike an opening, a beginning, an
initiation moment, and in thecards we see this hand kind of
(56:33):
reaching out from the heavens tooffer either the seed in the
ace of coins, or the sword inthe ace of swords, and the sword
kind of represents like a newidea or a moment of clarity or
like a realization, an ahamoment.
So this could be like the ideaor the vision that can start to
be activated.
But we'll need more action anddevelopment and thinking to like
(56:57):
come into being.
And then for hexagram 12, whereheaven and earth are separating
and creating, when you say that, it kind of makes me think of
this like void, where like maybenothing is happening.
And as I watched the daoistlunar calls, uh, a word, the
word stagnation, came up and so,and also that idea of like
(57:21):
being in late August, like allthe harvesting is starting to
happen.
There's like a lot of work,it's really hot, especially
where I live at that time ofyear and increasingly in the
Northern Hemisphere.
(57:47):
And 10s in the tarot are likeculminating moments or moments
of completion where that seriesthat starts with the ace kind of
goes through its steps and endsup at the 10.
And there are court cards thatcome after the 10s, but they're
kind of like developing masteryof the element.
So the two 10s, the main onethat I coupled with the ace of
pentacles was the ten of swords,where we usually see a figure
(58:09):
laid out on the ground.
In this one the figure ishunched over and there's ten
swords in their back.
It's pretty gnarly, the swordsbeing the realm of the mind or
the realm of thought.
This is where, like, ourthoughts have become too young,
they've just like overtaken usand we're crippled by them.
(58:30):
Like this figure cannot reallymove, um, certainly can't move
toward their visions and dreams,like very paralyzed um, and
this signifies or I see it aslike a signifier of a breaking
point where, like, you've hitthis wall and it's not like the
end and it's not like uh, gameover, but um, also in this card.
(58:54):
Often, you will see, it's notshown here, but usually this
person's kind of like laying ona beach and there's, there is a
black sky, but there's thislittle band down here of like
yellow light, like the day iscoming, and so it's that
breaking point where we say,like this doesn't work, um, or
I've done too much, or um,something about this dynamic is
(59:20):
not suitable for me, like Ican't thrive in this.
And when you were talking aboutthe, the magician and the high
priestess, like not workingtogether and not, um, not
resonating like.
One example that came to mindwould be like, let's say, you're
in a new living situation andyou find it difficult to like do
your rituals or do your magicbecause you have this other, you
(59:41):
know shared space.
Let's say, and so it kind tolike do your rituals or do your
magic because you have thisother, you know shared space.
Let's say, and so it kind oflike falls away quietly.
And then you know you findyourself like freaking out or
like you're just having bigreactions, and maybe it's like
well, you can't, you got to goback to like your magic went
away and you need to go find itLike.
(01:00:01):
So there's a breaking pointwhere it's like I have to figure
out a way to do my ritual work,do my spiritual practices, in
this environment, or figure outa way for it to happen elsewhere
while I still live here, orsomething like that.
And then the other one was the10 of wands, which is fire, and
(01:00:23):
here we have someone carryingall 10 wands over their shoulder
You'll also see this card oftenwhere the person is carrying
the wands in front of them andthey're hunched over and the
wands create this visual barrier.
So even if a friend came towardthem, they wouldn't be able to
even notice or recognize theperson because they're carrying
so much.
(01:00:43):
And this made me think of likethe harvesting and like pulling
all the fruits in, pulling allthe vegetables in and having to
store them and just doing it inthe heat, and like it's
essential to the communitysurvival.
But it's also kind ofbackbreaking and the question
there is like are there enoughpeople pitching in?
to kind of do this work, becauseall the weight will just hold
(01:01:07):
you down and you can't.
You don't have the inhaleexhale exchange like you need.
So those are the cards I pulledin for those two.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Yeah, as you were speaking about the Ten of Swords
, I think I'm having like quitea bit of emotion coming up,
because I feel like what you'vedescribed is like kind of the
moment that I'm in right now.
I think that with both of these, there's this concept of a
(01:01:42):
breaking point that I'm pickingup as you're speaking of, like
hexagram 11 being the breakingpoint, of like that moment where
the seed like bursts throughthat little seed membrane and
it's like first little taprootis just like like breaching um
(01:02:04):
the surface or like you know,that very first moment when, um,
a cellular creature splits fromone thing to two things, to
four things.
Like it's that, like that, thatit's like a moment that I think
is just so beautiful thatyou've you've highlighted so
like wonderfully.
(01:02:24):
And then this hexagram 12 islike the moment where, like,
that fruit has been hanging onthe tree, like waiting to be
picked for so long and now itcan't hang on anymore and then
drops to the ground.
And there's this likeinitiation, a breaking point
where, like, the grief happensand I think that that's where,
(01:02:46):
like the, the like energy,around august and that time of
year, the like late summer,everything is is happening and
like holy shit, like we've gotto.
We've got to have enough handsto be able to do this together.
I think that the reason why thisfelt so emotional to me is
(01:03:08):
because those of you who followme on in my world I'm pretty
open about, like, what my lifeis like and what's happening in
the world, and my husband and Ihave been living with people for
about a year and a half so thatwe could save up money to buy
(01:03:33):
our dream property and um, andwe've been pet sitting for the
last four months, um, so that wecould save up, and we just
bought a condo and we're aboutto close on our condo, like
literally like a week from now,and I'm at this point of like
breakage where I I'm like, I'mso ready.
(01:03:53):
I'm like please get us in ourown space Immediately.
The dogs that we are petsitting are incredibly difficult
.
They're elderly and so theyhave a lot of special care needs
, which is important to them,but also it's just a lot.
So, like this is just areminder.
(01:04:17):
Like this is why I love talkingabout this, because I feel like
the energy of nature is justreminding me like hey, this is
one part of the cycle.
Like once we move past thislike breakage point which is
happening, and I think that partof the reason my husband and I
were just noting to each otherlike hey, like we've been really
good about actually one of usfalls apart at one time and,
(01:04:42):
like this week, we've both beensort of like on edge and just
like like a little bit, justspikier than usual, visual um,
and and I think it's because ofthis like energy that you're
describing around the ten ofswords of like like we're done,
like it's right there and andlike there's like a little bit
(01:05:03):
of like a running out ofpatience that happens around you
know hexagram 12 and ten ofswords, I'm hearing, and even
ten of ones of like like toomuch form has happened and like
this fruit needs to drop now, umis kind of the energy.
Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
So, yeah, I think that you described that really
really beautifully yeah, and Ithink, like it's so hard to be
in those moments when you likecan't take it another day or
another minute sometimes, butthey also show us so much about
what we need and how, likeexquisitely and profoundly we
(01:05:44):
need it.
And, yeah, you get to feel thatcycle of like.
And then the, the release oflike.
I have keys and the only me andmy husband can get in this door
and no one else can get inright now, and inside, on the
other side of that door, we cando whatever we want.
(01:06:04):
It's all ours.
So you also like.
Life gives us that contrast oflike oh, this doesn't work for
me for much longer, and thenthat relief of like okay, yeah,
this is what me meeting my needsfeels like.
Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
Yeah, yeah.
And just to sort of bring thisinto context, I wasn't sure I
didn't know I was going to talkabout this today, but that
energy ofation is like exactlywhat I'm feeling right now.
And a couple of days ago I hitlike this like breaking point.
(01:06:43):
I feel like I got like if Iwere to draw tarot cards that
day, I might have drawn the Tenof Swords and the Ten of Wands
that day, just like, oh, I'mdone.
And the dogs were being a lotand it was just like like when
they're a lot, it's like superchaotic in this house.
And then it started raininglike kind of hard, and like the
(01:07:05):
thing that I do to likeself-regulate is like go for a
walk and go outside and go dosomething with my body.
And I had this like little kidtantrum moment where I was like
like I don't know what to do.
And so I sat down like we, wehave our own space downstairs
(01:07:27):
here and I just sat down and Iwas like, okay, like we can't
walk outside I know you want towalk outside Like what can we do
?
And so I'm like I love thatthese archetypes are sort of
coming in.
And the high priestess came in.
I kind of call her like my wiseself and she was like well, you
(01:07:48):
can't walk outside, we have tojust sort of accept that.
So, like, what can we do?
And so I drove to the mall, likeliterally paste the mall, like
I didn't go in any of the stores.
Actually, I went into thebookstore but I like paste the
mall and just like did laps upand down, like I don't think
anybody noticed that that's whatI was doing, but it was just
(01:08:10):
like what my body needed was tojust like move.
And so again there's thatconcept of like okay, I felt
like supremely stuck, like I wasin this place, of like can't
move, full like yin collapse,like freaking out, but like not
having anywhere to put thatenergy.
And so then it's like okay, soif that's where you're at, let's
(01:08:32):
bring in some yang Like, howcan you bring in yang?
And for me, bringing in yangwas going to the mall and
walking.
Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
So yeah, good solution.
There was a time.
I can't do it now, my knees arenot healthy, but I was running
and like training for a halfmarathon and it was getting
close to the race and I had to.
It was like time for me to runlike a 10 mile and it was
(01:09:05):
raining.
It wasn't raining super heavy,but it was raining and I was.
I was on the phone with myfriend and I was like I should
do this run, but it's likeraining and I don't really feel
like it.
And she was like, uh, runningin the rain can be fun, Like
it's just fun, Like, and I waslike, oh huh, and then I went
(01:09:27):
for a run in the rain and it wasamazing.
So I'm glad you found the mall,but if it happens again, again,
I mean obviously if it'storrential and if you're in a
hilly place and all of that.
But I was just thinking likesometimes there's an at least
there's like some noise outsideand you can just scream at the
sky.
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
I mean, I think that I I generally am not like pissed
off at the rain.
Um, I think it was just likeanother layer of discomfort
would have just like solvedanother problem.
Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Yeah, solve for another frustration.
Yeah, yeah you're like universe, why yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
exactly, um, which I mean.
I think that I I partially Iwant to share this story just
because I think it's like a goodillustration of like how can
you bring in young energy?
Or how can you bring in theenergy when you know you're
feeling this way?
But also it's something thatactually one of my clients asked
me, and she was like Can I askyou if you ever get dysregulated
(01:10:30):
Like, dysregulated like and youknow, I think that we have to
be real as space holders, thatlike we are, we are human as
well.
Guys.
Like, like I'm not sitting hereon top of like a completely
healed mountain, being like ohyeah, I'm in a zen state all the
time.
Like no, I had a five-year-oldtemper tantrum this week because
(01:10:54):
it rained and I didn't want tobe inside.
So, like, I'm curious how youwould answer that question of
like hey, cecily, like you seemso calm and collected all the
time.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
Yeah, no, it's not, and part of the reason I was
able to draw on that analogy iskind of a similar like situation
.
I've been um, living morefull-time with my boyfriend the
last couple months and our homesare very close together but
(01:11:35):
I've like someone else is livingin my home now and also part of
like the extended family of ourcommunity and so, but I'm an
only child and I've lived bymyself a lot and I had my own
house and I have a yard and Ihad all these birds and this
(01:11:56):
house is great too and myboyfriend's amazing and I love
him very much and he also has a13 year old daughter and usually
they go, you know, one weekhere she's one week with her mom
and for a while she was likefor the first couple months of
this year, she was staying withus full time because her mom
(01:12:16):
needed to take care of somefamily stuff, and so I just had
less of that like solitary spaceand.
I don't have children and like Idon't, like she's an amazing
kid, but I just like I had notlived full time with a teenager
(01:12:37):
for two months before.
And so I was just like reallystruggling and also like I don't
.
It's a different role.
It's like dad's girlfriend, butlike not step parent, and like
mature adult but like and alsoroommate but like.
So it's just like how do Iplace myself?
And like this is all this stufflike I haven't had to think
(01:12:59):
about or, you know, do before,and it's.
It was really like I was havingvery difficult internal
struggles trying to figure outlike what do I need and how do I
ask for that and how do I showup in a good way for him and for
his daughter and also give themspace and like.
(01:13:22):
It's just like a lot ofinternal negotiation and also
like plenty of space to be like.
Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
I suck at this and so there's that other layer of
just like giving myself a reallyhard time.
Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
So I'm not always dysregulated and sorry.
Well, I'm not alwaysdysregulated and I'm not always
regulated.
But it's also one of thosethings where it's like I think I
invite.
You know, I definitely invitedthis into my life and this is a
place of growth for me and onsome level I'm ready for it,
even while I have no liketraining or like true
(01:13:58):
preparation.
Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Um, and so, yeah, it's like how can I hold on to
myself and like hold for themtoo in a way that honors me and
honors them, and it's true, lotsof feels, yeah, and I think
that, like for me, when I amlike looking for I want to say
(01:14:25):
practitioners, but like I think,as I'm saying that out loud, it
goes beyond that.
For me, it's like, if I'mlooking for co-collaborators, if
I'm looking for friends, if I'mlooking for anybody who I want
to actually have some sort ofemotional intimacy with, I don't
(01:14:46):
want to be in relationship withsomebody who denies the fact
that they get dysregulated.
I don't want to be inrelationship with somebody who,
like pretends that, like thingsare all fantastic 100% of the
time.
You know, you're not a robot,yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
I don't want to be Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
And so it's like hey, we do this work First for
ourselves, I believe, because wedeserve to have the most rich,
full human experience that youhave while you're on this planet
.
So do this work of flexiblymoving between inhale and exhale
(01:15:31):
for yourself.
And we also do this workbecause it allows you to be
somebody who is able to be likereally real with your life
experience.
You know, without any sort oflike mirrors or like smoke and
(01:15:51):
illusion around, who you are andwhat you're about.
And I think thirdly and this issomething that we've touched on
earlier in the conversation islike this actually makes you a
safer person for the people whochoose to be an intimate
relationship with you.
(01:16:12):
I think about all the peoplethat I asked to hold me and I
know that I can lean on thatbecause they've held themselves.
To the extent that they've heldthemselves I don't really want
to take my stuff that feelsreally heavy and, you know,
asked to be held by somebody who, like, doesn't have the
experience of holding themselvesin that capacity, somebody who,
(01:16:36):
like, doesn't have theexperience of holding themselves
in that capacity, because thenit'll turn into this like really
sticky and meshed relationship,um, and so, yeah, I I felt like
in this conversation of likereally fleshing out, like yin
and yang, and you knowpractitioner and client and you
(01:17:01):
know space holder and spacereceiver, like I think that we
as humans are going to sort offlex between all those different
roles, and and how do you movebetween those spaces is an
important question to ask.
Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
Yeah, and this is kind of making me think of like
this is no zero shade ontherapists, like I have had and
we'll have therapists again inmy life but just the way it's
like therapists go through thisformal training and of course
they have like a lot of practicetraining like you know they,
(01:17:38):
you do a lot of hours to becomefully trained.
But, um, you know, I don't, andI do think the training does
ask therapists to look atthemselves, like that's part of
it too, but it's like the formaltraining about like what
therapy is and the differenttheories of therapy.
That's not enough to necessarilylike be a good provider for
(01:18:01):
someone, but that inner work andthat's kind of why, you know, I
created the workbook too.
It's like how do we do that andhow do we talk to ourselves?
And and like yeah, like seeingthat, like when you have those
those feelings, of course you'rereally in it and it feels very
like like you're in this closetjust with like all this stuff.
(01:18:23):
But when you can pull back youcan also see like I'm learning
something here.
I'm growing in some way here.
My work in this moment is totry to do x or Z with myself and
with the others around me andyou have like a kind of by like
a two part existence where it'slike the you that's experiencing
(01:18:45):
and the maybe a little youthat's on your shoulder, that's
like watching and trying to helpand like remind you.
And then when we go through that, as life hands us that over and
over again, it's like we canoffer some of what we gleaned
from those really difficultthose 10 of swords, 10 of one
moments um to know with our,with our clients, like here's
(01:19:10):
what I feel like might behappening and here's how I can
position myself or create thatcontainer and um, maybe that was
a little bit of a word salad,sorry, no like.
Speaker 1 (01:19:20):
I I mean again, no shade on therapy.
I've also been through a lot oftherapy and, um, I don't know
that that's actually the realm.
That would be helpful for me inthe future.
Um, to me there's a reallyimportant delineation between
what coaches do and whattherapists do, and I think
(01:19:43):
therapy is important for when adiagnosis is needed, and I've
seen that be such a healingexperience for many of my
clients where they have receiveddiagnosis and it explains and
helps them feel like validatedin a lot of the experiences that
they've had throughout theirlife.
That kind of hasn't made sensefor them.
(01:20:04):
For myself, if I went totraditional therapy, I probably
would be diagnosed with ADHD.
If I went to you know,traditional therapy, I probably
would be diagnosed with ADHD and, like I personally don't feel
the need to like have thatdiagnosis to explain what my,
what my life is like, and so Idon't see that as being a part
(01:20:25):
of my future.
But I do know that, havingcoached several therapists who
have turned into coaches,there's this like you were
saying this, like formaltraining, and almost this idea
of like you aren't allowed toshow up as yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:20:42):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
So that the other person can take up more space.
Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
And so I think that in like the context of diagnosis
, like that, feels reallyimportant to have those
boundaries delineated.
The reason why I have a lot oftherapists who move into
coaching I think at this point Ihave five who have moved into
that realm, clients who havedone that is because they come
(01:21:11):
to this point in their careerswhere they're like I want to
tell my story.
I actually think it would behelpful for people to hear parts
of my story so they can seethat there's a human on the
other side of this.
And for a lot of my clients,like, sharing that humanness
actually helps them feel lessalone in the world, and I think
(01:21:34):
that that's where coaching getsto be.
Again, I never want to encroachon the therapy world because
that's not what my calling is,that's not at all what I feel
called to do, and I think thatpeople get really confused about
where are the lines betweencoaching and therapy sometimes.
And to me, like this is where,like coaching, you are allowed
(01:21:58):
to share parts of your life andI think it actually is helpful
and therapeutic and you have tobe really impeccable with your
boundaries, because in thatsharing, how can you then bring
that other person, their storyalive as well, that other person
(01:22:22):
their story alive as well andhold them like as important and
um, and help and have yourstories be like a part of like
how they see themselves and soum, like again there's that like
really beautiful nuance.
I see therapy as being a lotmore of a young practice,
because we need standards, weneed structure, we need like
identification, and I seecoaching as a little bit more of
(01:22:45):
a young practice and like hey,like the lines can get a little
bit mushy and we still need tohold really, really important
boundaries to create safe spaces.
Speaker 2 (01:23:05):
Yeah, and I just think story is so crucial to
healing.
And yeah, if you're onlydelivering a story as like an
abstract thing or a story aboutlike Joe or whatever, like it's
like an analogy, there'ssomething kind of lost there.
But if it's like a story thatfeels like real life and
obviously you know, as coaches,we're not like here to just tell
our life stories to our clientslike we pull from the right
(01:23:27):
story at the right moment andyeah, then our like people
really can.
It's an example.
It's like oh, here's howsomeone got through this thing.
Here's how someone got throughthis thing.
And here's someone else whostruggled the same way.
I'm struggling right in thismoment and here's what the other
side of this can look like.
Yeah, if I'm willing to, likeyou know, be with what's here in
(01:23:48):
the moment.
So yeah, yeah bringing storiesin are just so powerful.
Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
Yeah, I think that that concept of like hey, I've
been here too, I've been exactlywhere you've been and I'm here
to like walk beside you, is sucha powerful tool for healing
that we don't really um like.
I think it's why the coachingworld is growing so much bigger
(01:24:14):
is because we're starting to seethe importance of that concept
of like, hey, I can walk besideyou because I've done this
before and you know, just matchyour steps to my steps, so it's
going to be okay.
Yeah, Well, my dear, anythingelse you want to like bring in
(01:24:35):
to the space around all thesebeautiful concepts that we've
all used?
Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
I guess you know, as this episode is coming out in
springtime, I guess that's aninvitation for folks to kind of
notice.
You know, look around at heavenand earth energies around you
and imagine how they might beinteracting.
And you know, hold the magicianand the high priestess in mind,
(01:25:04):
like where are they for you?
Hold those aces, the swords andthe pentacles, like where's
your seed, where's your idea?
But also where do things feelblocked or stagnant?
And just you know.
I hope this can be a frameworkfor curiosity as people move
(01:25:24):
through this season.
Speaker 1 (01:25:30):
If you're finding yourself in hexagram 12, energy,
like I am asking yourself, hey,like, do you need a little bit
more yin right now, or do youneed a little bit more yang to
help just change the energy andchange the dynamics a little bit
?
I think would be another sortof curious question to hold.
Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
Yeah, and I can almost see too, like feeling
into the body toward whateverfeels stagnant or stuck.
Does it feel like mud or clay,does it feel like a big boulder?
Does it feel, you know, yeah,like what kind of energy feels
like it's in there and whatenergy in nature might help it
(01:26:16):
soften or dissolve or shift alittle bit, whether it's like
maybe if I sat by a creek, ormaybe if I talk to the trees, or
you know, let it be sometimessimple, yeah awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:26:31):
Well, thank you so much for hanging out with me.
I've learned so much.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
Yeah, I've learned so much as well, and it's just
such a joy to, yeah, investigateand share stories with you same
z's um, let's drop.
Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
just drop in with our uh ways that people can find us
, so why don't you go first?
Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
Cecily, yeah, you can find me at typewritertarotcom
and on Instagram attypewritertarot.
And if you're listening onKat's podcast, you can find more
about tarot and living acreative and magical life on my
podcast, your Creative andMagical Life Love it.
Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
And if you're listening via Cecily's podcast.
My name is Kat Lee and myInstagram handle is kathosulee
website kathosuleecom, and Ialso have a podcast called the
Rooted Business Podcast and Ihope we get to connect.
(01:27:39):
I love hanging out with peoplein DMs and I really do read
messages, or every singlemessage that I get back, so I'm
pretty friendly out there.
So come, hang out Very friendly, alrighty.
See you next time, cecily.
Yes, very friendly, alrighty.
See you next time, cecily.
Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:27:57):
Look forward to it.
Hello friends, welcome to this episode.
This is a joint episode, so youmight be listening to this on
the Rooted Business Podcast oryou might be listening to this
on Cecily Saylor's your Creativeand Magical Life Podcast.
Either direction that you'recoming from, welcome.
(00:22):
We're really excited to haveyou here, and Cecily and I are
doing a series based around bothof our nerdy yummy you know
just curiosities and passionsaround tarot and the I Ching.
(00:42):
Cecily is who I go to for tarotreadings and just wanting to
jam about, I don't know themysteries of the universe and
the cosmos.
Apparently, that's the rolethat you play in my life, yeah
and so, yeah, we're reallyexcited to have you here for the
(01:06):
series.
If this is your first timetuning into this episode, we did
an introductory episode on mypodcast.
That's going to be episode 135.
Sense of like what the overlayof our conversation for the year
(01:29):
is going to be like.
So go check that one out beforeyou come and listen to this one
.
I think that they'll all bestandalones, but if you're like
needing context and a little bitmore of the vocabulary, we go
through a lot of that in episode135.
So, yeah, thanks for being here, cecily yeah, thanks for being
(01:49):
here.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Cecily fun and incredibly stimulating for my
brain and my spirit and mydivination nerdiness same, thank
you same.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Um, I I mean just even since the beginning of this
little project together, you'veasked questions in such a way
that it's like broken my brain alittle bit and so, like you
know, I'm just like, ah, I needto talk to her because, because
that broke my, my brain and mylogical side was just like, oh
(02:16):
my gosh, we need to bring somecontext to this.
So, um, yeah, we're going toget into some of those questions
that I've been, I've beenpercolating with and and really
playing with.
I'm excited, yeah, so, givingyou a little bit of context for
this episode.
So in the last episode episode135, you went through each of
(02:40):
the energies of the tarot system, so pentacles, swords, wands
and cups, and you did a reallybeautiful job of using just like
words to explain what each ofthose.
Is there a word that like sortof describes each of those
indexes?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, well, I would just say, you know, there's the
symbol in the suit, and thenthere's the element it's
connected to and then there'sthe parts of human existence
that those elements representright, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So just as a brief overview, I took notes, as you
were.
You were talking last time.
You were saying that thepentacles are associated with
earth.
It's all about creation, natureand cosmos.
Swords associated with fireit's descriptions of okay, sorry
, uh, sorry, say that again.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So swords and air swords are air and like the mind
, communication, logic, thoughts.
Okay, take over, do the okay dothe last two the wands are fire
and that's like spark of life,like vitality, just yeah, like
(03:55):
life force, energy, and alsolike creativity, passion, bodily
, bodily activation, um, andthen the cups are water and they
represent emotions, the heart,like the feeling, part of being
human awesome.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
So, based on just how she described it, I was like,
oh, this is like there's fourdifferent pairings of trigrams.
So each hexagram that you seewithin the I Ching is made up of
two trigrams, meaning two setsof three lines, and the way that
we describe that energy is,through this, like family system
(04:40):
.
So heaven and earth are likethe mother and father system.
So heaven and earth are likethe mother and father.
And to me, like when you weretalking about the pentacles and
earth, I was like, oh, that'sheaven and earth energy.
Um, when you were talking aboutthe sword energy, it's the
first daughter and the first son, which is fire and water.
Um, when you're talking aboutwand energy, I thought
(05:04):
immediately of like wind andthunder, that like life force,
movement kind of an energy.
So that's the second daughterand second son.
And when you were sharing aboutthe cups, it's like lake and
mountain.
So those are the, the trigrampairings, and that's the the
youngest, um, daughter and son.
(05:25):
And so today we're gonna focuson the pairings of heaven and
earth and I've um pulled acouple of hexagrams that we can
talk about.
Um, when it comes to this, thisdynamic, and then cecily is
also going to bring in herwisdom, bringing in some of the,
(05:46):
the card energy and how shemight describe.
I mean, ultimately, what itcomes down to is there are a lot
of traditional systems that arebased around interacting with
nature, observing nature,witnessing nature and being like
how do I describe this kind ofindescribable thing?
(06:09):
And you know, a lot of thescholars back in East Asia
looked to them and came up withthis like hexagram system, and
in a completely different partof the world, in several
thousand years later, anentirely different system was
(06:32):
created.
But we're all sort of talkingabout the same thing and I think
that that's the piece that Ireally want to like hammer in
here is the more and more Ilearn about traditional wisdom
and medicine, we're all sayingthe same thing, we're all
walking up the same mountain, sothere's no like dogma here.
And also wanting to note thatyou know there's not going to be
(06:55):
a perfect overlay between the IChing and the Hexagram, the I
Ching and tarot systems.
You know, even just in thisconversation we were like
planning to to have thisconversation.
You know I was like okay, sothere's four hexagrams that I
want to talk about, and thenCecily came up with, I think,
one, two, three, four, fivetarot cards that came up for her
(07:17):
as like as she was like doing alittle bit of the research
around the hexagrams, and so youknow, I wish my like, my like
young, logical brain wants to belike.
This equals that, but that'snot ever the case, and so if
that's the part of your brainthat is like itching warning
there's not try to describe thisbeautiful world that we live in
and how we interact with withinthat world.
(07:39):
So, yeah, any thoughts beforewe jump in.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I feel like these are nicely complementary in many
ways.
But in one sense I feel like theI Ching kind of turns to nature
more completely as the likeenergetic, as an energetic guide
(08:23):
for like looking at life.
And I think tarot does have amore human focus.
Like nature is definitelydefinitely there, but it because
maybe that's because it's alittle more modern and it was
developed kind of when there wasa bit more like humans, more
(08:44):
human density, I guess, um, andso I think that's kind of cool
that, like you know, if you're atarot person and you open up to
the I Ching, you get to kind ofgo into nature more deeply and
maybe, if you're an I Chingperson coming to tarot, you get
to kind of take that reallynature-based and of course, the
(09:05):
I Ching like when you'reot youget to kind of take that really
nature-based.
And of course, the I Ching likewhen you're looking in the
divination books, those naturalenergies are translated into
like a message for the human tolike guide through life.
So the end result is kind ofthe same.
But yeah, if you're an I Chingperson coming to tarot, there's
probably more like a human focusin that, one that you can
(09:28):
overlay with I Chingunderstanding or something.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, love it it does .
And I'd say that, like evenwithin the I Ching, we have them
split into two differentsections the upper canon and the
lower canon.
The upper canon is more of adescription of nature, so, like,
(09:54):
when you get through like thefirst part of of the number
system, we're more in likedescription of nature, land, and
then when you get to the lowercanon, it's more of like the
human experience within nature,and so, um, I'm trying to think
of yeah, the hexagrams that Ipulled are all within the upper
(10:16):
canon, which you know sort ofmakes sense in terms of like
this is more of of descriptionsof of nature and the cosmos.
Yeah, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And the upper canon is the first 30 hexagrams.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I believe, so I have to yes First 30.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
That's correct.
I took that you said that lasttime.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So I learned from you .
These are like the like detailsthat my numbers dyslexic brain
just really struggles with.
Actually, that's one of thethings that broke my brain the
other um day when I waslistening to your podcast is you
had an entire podcast about thehigh priestess and in it you
had this very like, almost likeinnocent and like off the cuff
(11:13):
question of like why is the highpriestess number two instead of
number one?
Um, and that was the.
That was the question that likebroke my brain for the last
like two and a half weeks.
Um, and like the I Ching.
I was just showing you apicture of this and so if you're
(11:34):
on YouTube, you can, you cansee the picture as well.
But, um, I have this book andlike the I Ching originally was
like a circular system withoutlike a number one and a number
two.
It's only when king wen cameinto the picture where he put
numbers um, just to help peopleaccess it a little bit easier.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
And and there's something about like the
numbering system that like hurtsmy brain yeah, it creates that
false linearity and when cat washolding up this image it looks
like a mandala kind of like ithas.
It's a circle of differentlayers and almost like a dial
(12:19):
you could use to like find yourhexagram or something.
But I think one thing tarot, uh,tarot kind of became like a
gateway drug to like getting tothis the sense of like the wheel
of time, and that we movethrough time more in a spiral
(12:39):
kind of way than a linear, justlike day after day, year after
year, and that was so refreshingto me.
And once you kind of break thatpart, then you can also break
apart these other concepts oflike ladders and hierarchies and
other places that linearity isfalsely imposed.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Even though numbers are helpful in life, like
they're not, they're not bad butum, yeah, um, actually, before
we get into the hexagrams, um,can you speak a little bit to
that like why is the magiciannumber one?
Why is the priestess number two?
(13:22):
And to me, I want to frame thisin a lot of the language that
we use around, I think, tarot,and also the I Ching there's
feminine and masculine dynamicsthat show up, and I really want
to, anytime we're talking aboutthese energies, want to like,
(13:48):
anytime we're talking aboutthese energies, it's not in this
like, highly gendered way.
It's like this is why I thinkthat, like, yin and yang are
more accessible ways to talkabout this yin being more of
what we consider feminine in thewestern world, yang being more
of what we consider masculine inthe, in the modern world, and
and so like.
We all have these energieswithin us in different beautiful
(14:08):
titration levels, and so I wantus to sort of I don't know,
this is something that I'mcurrently struggling with it's
like how do we talk about thiswithout becoming super rigid in
gendered ways of thinking?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, I think that's something we're kind of
exploring in Typewriter Tarot ina larger sense, large in a
larger sense, like we recentlydid a blog post from this
wonderful non-binary writernamed robin gow, and um, they're
(14:49):
writing about, uh, like how wecan kind of pass through or like
destabilize or deconstructgender representations in tarot
and, you know, even if the cardsare showing us like a, what
appears to be a definitive likewoman, um, and a definitive man
(15:13):
and like gender is very binaryin the tarot.
It's kind of one or the notalways.
Actually, there are many humanfigures, even in older decks
where it's like it could be youknow, it's open to
interpretation.
but, um, as the viewer, we getto bring a deconstructed lens to
it and even if we see a femalefigure, we can refer to them
(15:34):
with non-binary pronouns or wecan think of them just as yin
energy versus like literalfemale.
You know the the like, very, um,separate delineation of like
male energy and female energy.
Um, yeah, so there's like, asjust the interpreter and the
user, we can kind of play andexplore and I think we can ask
(15:57):
these questions that break ourbrains, like what would it mean
if the magician is a woman or is, um, you know, a non, someone
who's on the non-binary spectrumof gender expression?
But to come to your questionabout the magician and the high
priestess and why one might befirst and the other is second,
(16:18):
and in your Creative and MagicalLife podcast there's a whole
episode on the fool, who is likethe zero in.
That doesn't mean like a loser,that just means like he's the
number zero and the foolrepresents, like the protagonist
of the tarot, the one that'slike starting this journey and
going to go meet all these otherarchetypes and be shaped and
(16:41):
learn and challenge throughmeeting the magician, meeting
the high priestess.
So the magician is one and highpriestess is two, and there's
also whole episodes on themagician and a whole episode on
the high priestess, and in bothepisodes we kind of play with
this question for a moment andthe magician is the one who
manifests or uses the elements.
(17:04):
You'll see.
See on the magician's table, asymbol from every element.
So they're all there and themagician is working with the
elements available in theuniverse and using a magic wand
and creating an intention, andthen about to move through some
ritualized action to actualizetheir vision and bring it into
(17:25):
the world.
And then the high priestessthat follows the magician is not
doing anything, she's justseated and she's seated behind,
or usually she's seated in frontof two columns and between the
columns is a like a curtain andbehind the curtain is an ocean.
So she's kind of seated at thisportal and this.
(17:48):
The idea is like she has accessto everything behind the
curtain and she can kind ofshare it with us.
And then you know we get to.
In each card that we get, weget to see, like how am I, what
would it be like for me to be inthis position, to be in the
position of manifesting me, tobe in this position, to be in
the position of manifesting, orto be in the position of
(18:09):
accessing ancient wisdom, whichis what's represented by that
ocean.
That's like feeling andintuition and ancestral wisdom
and the wisdom of the cosmos.
She just sits there and, kindof like, can access it as she
needs to.
She's receptive and she's areceiver and the magician's like
the wand and the maker, um, andso it's interesting.
(18:33):
They're like the very beginningof the journey and if we think
of, like human development, themagician kind of does this, like
I describe it in that episode,like even when we are babies,
and we start to realize, likewhen we cry, if we, you know, if
we're hungry and we have acaring parent, then someone will
(18:54):
bring us something to satisfythe hunger.
And it's just that mechanism oflike, when I act, there will be
a response whether it's like toignore or to like get your
needs met.
But that very that's like themost basic kind of version of
the magician.
So in a like human developmentway, it kind of comes.
We can see how it comes first.
(19:15):
But my question is like how dowe know how to act?
Like the high priestess givesus this sense of like what's
here, what am I feeling calledto do?
Um, what kind of information isavailable to me to guide me?
And so, in another way, like inlife as a grown-up, I would
(19:38):
like to live by being the highpriestess first and feeling like
where's my intuition taking me?
And then step into the magicianto work my spell or refine my
vision and take the action andthen see it develop.
So it's interesting too thatthe two we could look at this as
(20:00):
like why is the magician first,when maybe it's better to
actually know before we act?
But conversely, sometimes wedon't know until we act.
We take action and we're likethat worked, that didn't work,
that was really weird.
And then we kind of add that toour wisdom, that refines our
action.
And then I'll say a coupleother things and then try to cut
(20:25):
myself off.
But, um, I think too for humansin terms of thinking about yang
and yin energy, and I'm curiouswhat you think about this cat,
but it's like, the more we knowabout the cosmos, it looks like
a big void, like there's just alot of open space where there
appears to be nothing.
(20:45):
And maybe that's a very Westernview and maybe other cultures
just totally never saw it thatway.
But when we're thinking abouthow did this all get here, that
big question that every human isasking there had to be, we're
like.
Well, something had to initiateit, something had to go from
nothing to something, and Ithink that is probably Yang
energy and maybe why humans putthe Yang first before the
(21:10):
stillness and the sitting.
And the only last thing I'llsay is just, it's interesting.
The next two cards are theEmpress and the Emperor and in
that dynamic Yin comes first andYang comes next.
So it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Interesting.
Yeah, no, I love it.
And again, this is where, likeyou're using language that I
would also use to describe yinand yang dynamics.
You know, and I love that, thefool is first, because that's
exactly what I was thinking islike from the void.
(21:46):
Then comes this, likeseparation into two and young
being, that initiatory lifeforce, movement, that experience
, and then like in the humanform.
(22:12):
I would also call that like thefeelings land, where you know
we're talking about how angerfeels within the body before
there's an action being made andin that action happening.
That's like the expression ofyang, like pushing forward and
moving that through.
And when we're talking aboutthe human body, it's like the
functionality of the organsrather than the form of the
organ.
What does the stomach do versuslike, what does the stomach
(22:32):
look like?
And then on the flip side, youknow that being the opposite,
with yin energy, of yin beingresponsive, yin being form, yin
being holding, um, holdingcontaining, as you were saying.
That like intuition, um, thatlike stillness versus action.
(22:58):
You know all like we're alltalking about the same things,
right and interesting that evenwithin the I Ching we also have
the hexagrams one and two, onebeing full Yang lines, so heaven
over heaven, if we're lookingat them broken down into
trigrams, and then hexagram twobeing full yin lines, full
(23:22):
broken lines, and so that beingearth over earth, and you know
everything about this is likelike I really don't think that
we can get away from like this,like circular action.
You know it's like if we'rethinking about the Big Bang as
(23:45):
being like young energy.
You know, once we startcontracting and I think quantum
physicists talk about like thebig crunch that's coming
(24:06):
everything is always on thislike like inhale exhale scale.
Whether we're talking about ourown breath and we're talking
about the breath of the universe, you know, everything fits
within and, and what I loveabout the I Ching is that like
we're basically breaking downokay, so here's this like big
breath in, big breath out right.
And then how do we break downall those little slivers of
experience in between the breathand finding the nuance in
(24:30):
between the breath of likeinhale and exhale?
And that's really I think manypeople have spent their entire
lives trying to understand allof that.
I know that I'm going to spendthe rest of my life trying to
understand all that and nevereven get close to it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So yeah, the inhale and the exhale and from like, as
we've started this exploration,you know my initial
understanding I was like, oh,okay, itching was like how do
(25:12):
you do it right?
Like, okay, you take coins,then you count the, they get
this many numbers and then yougo to the line and you write the
line.
Then you find in the book andas we get deeper it it's like
okay, no, each.
Well, also I Ching or moreimportantly, is taking like
every trigram is connected to anatural, like force or element
(25:35):
or concept, and the hexagrams,and so what I'm noticing is,
just for the tarot people comingto this, that what I Ching
offers us is a like.
It seems like its basis is likehow do these energies, what
energy do two energies createwhen they come together and they
move in this particulardirection?
(25:57):
And how is that?
Like life, and so there's, it'sjust like so energy focused,
and I think that's so beautifuland exquisite and like endlessly
fascinating and I just want to.
That's kind of how I see the IChing doing that thing you're
describing like what are all theexperiences inside the
(26:18):
in-breath and the out-breath,the expansion?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
and the contraction.
I want to shift the conversationa little bit, just because this
is something that I've likebeen dying to just like chew on
with you, and it's beensomething that I've been really
noticing since our lastconversation that we had to
record, which is I always wantto take this like esoteric
(26:42):
practice and bringing it intopractical land and how does this
help our lives?
Right, and so a lot of mypeople who are going to be
coming to this are going to bespiritual entrepreneurs, meaning
that a lot of them are spaceholders.
But I think that thisconversation would be relevant
for anybody who's just like ahuman trying to human with other
humans and like finding thatsense of balance, of
(27:05):
self-regulation andco-regulation.
I've been in this place of justlike noticing and witnessing
what it feels like in my ownbody when I'm holding space for
somebody who comes in with likea lot of energy, and what kind
of dynamic do I need to hold,what kind of like on the like
(27:28):
yin-yang pole?
Which part of that do I need tobring up in order to meet that
person's energy?
Right?
And so just noticing in myselflike hey, when somebody comes in
with like a lot of like myself.
Like hey, when somebody comesin with like a lot of like, um,
emotionality, and they're justlike in this like, as you were
(27:50):
sort of talking about that likedevelopmental stage of like I, I
have so many feelings and Idon't know really what I want
and I'm just like, in totalfeelings, land, right, there's a
lot of like what we wouldconsider to be like yang energy
and that like expression of likeright.
And so then it is my job as thespace holder to bring in, bring
(28:12):
up more of my yin energy, tosort of like hold and be still
and allow that person to like gothrough whatever tantrum their
body or their spirit reallyneeds to go through and help
them feel safe in that momentenough to like move through and
find completion within that,that, that cycle of that emotion
(28:32):
.
On the other side, ifsomebody's coming in and they're
like feeling really stuck andfrozen and like just kind of
deflated and collapsed, then mywork is about okay.
So how can we help activate andbring a little bit of movement
into this person's system?
(28:53):
And so bringing up my yangenergy and this is where I think
that like nuance and skill andthe art of holding space is so
important, because with eitherof these.
You don't want to be too stillor too mobilizing, otherwise
you're going to blow that personout of their feelings again.
And so I love being able tobring in the energy of the
(29:21):
initiator of hexagram one, youknow, of the responder in
hexagram two.
And again, if we're going touse tarot language, it's like
the initiator being like themagician energy.
You know, hey, like you've gotall these elements sitting right
in front of you.
Which one do you want to pickup?
You know, with the, with thehigh priestess, it's like you
(29:45):
have so much infinite wisdomwithin you.
How do you want to access that?
Like?
Can we slow down enough toaccess that, instead of just
like running all the time andforgetting to like look around
and see the ocean, you know?
And so that's been somethingthat I've really been been
playing with in terms of how dowe take this thing that I love
(30:10):
interacting with on the page andwith the coins and now with the
cards, and actually bring thatinto our everyday lives in such
a way that it helps us relate toeach other, that it helps us
relate to each other, and sothat's like a big unanswered and
(30:30):
continuing to evolve questionfor myself.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah, it's so subtle, for one thing, sometimes, like,
sometimes it is big energy orreally frozen energy, and
sometimes it's a mixture, or youknow you're going to get both
in a session and you kind ofcontribute as the space holder
to kind of helping create thatwave, or you're trying to read
(30:54):
like what energy is there andhow it needs to move and how you
can kind of create the poolthat the wave can crash into, or
like build up from um, and Ithink, like taking that that
gives me like an extra layer ofperspective on looking at the
(31:15):
cards.
And it's kind of like, if youare new to tarot, let's say, and
you're just pulling a card, Ithink you can just start with
this question of like, is thismore yang energy or is it more
yin?
And if you have two cardstogether, I feel like those can
function like trigrams in the IChing, where it's like, okay,
(31:36):
what's the yin-yang ratio maybeof the card you're looking at
for the two cards and how doesthat interact together and how
does like one help the other, orhow does how do the two
complicate each other, perhaps,and that can kind of help you
see, like what the issue mightbe that you're struggling with,
(31:56):
or it can maybe present a wayforward, like, oh, I'm
definitely in this energy andthis other card is maybe showing
me a way to shift it or to turnit into the wisdom.
Turn it into, like find the,the juicy nectar in there.
That has some guidance.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, yeah and something that I really just
like love is, I feel likeanytime.
So I tend to be a little bitmore of a young personality.
I am definitely a lot ofmovement, a lot of energy,
anybody who follows human design.
(32:39):
I'm a manifesting generator andI'm like that definition, like
to a T manifesting generator andI'm like that definition, like
to a T.
And so anytime I pull from the IChing, I feel like I get lots
of invitations to be in bystillness, like to be in by yin,
and for me the I Ching has beena largely self-regulatory tool
(33:07):
of like hey, like you have yinwithin yourself.
It's like almost a reminder oflike hey, you have yin within
yourself.
Can you bring a little bit moreof that forward in this moment,
because you're kind of lackingthat and it's so funny because I
, you know, I think last time Iwas like I should stop being
surprised by the, by the coinsthat I, you know, throw, because
(33:27):
I swear there are hexagrams inhere that are young oriented and
I like almost never get them.
I'm just like that, like neverhappens, um, and so like there
are points of frustrationsometimes where I'm like there's
gotta be a better answer thanjust like sit still and be with
(33:49):
this in my frustration.
But what I love about the seriesthat we're doing also what I
love about, you know, thecreative magic collective that
you've created is that it takes,because I think that for a lot
of us've taken thisself-regulatory tool and made it
(34:25):
into a co-regulatory tool andbrought it into community, which
is something that the medicineof that is not appreciated
enough.
So I'm curious if you couldspeak a little bit to your
reasons why Sorry, my voice isbeing froggy um, I'm curious if
(34:52):
you could speak to your reasonswhy you brought that in and um
how, in the context of a group,we can sort of like play with
these yin-yang energies in adifferent and new dynamic than
maybe what you do on your own inyour own sort of like private
(35:13):
practice.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, thank you for that question.
I so the the creative magiccollective is centered around a
book I created called tarot forcreative spirits, and it has a
journaling prompt for every cardin the tarot deck, and I
designed the book to draw on allthe things I've learned so far
(35:38):
about tarot and reading tarotfor other people, and also all
the things I've learned so farin coaching people around their
creativity or their spirituality, or living authentically with
their creativity andspirituality and developing
magic in their lives, and so theprompts kind of bring all of
(35:59):
that together, or that was theattempt, and I, for one thing, I
think it's like it's a big book, like right now it's like a
hundred.
There's a hundred sheets ofpaper in it and some of those
are tarot spreads.
But, um, you know, when you geta whole book of journaling
props, it's like what are theodds that on your own, with life
(36:19):
being how it is, that you'regoing to do them all or even
half of them?
So part of it, like the group,is for the sense of like
motivation.
Or, you know, I'm interested inwhat's happening for other
people and I'm interested to seewhat happens for me and how
these journeys kind of coincideor overlap at different times.
(36:39):
And also having a container.
Yeah, you know, just having acontainer or a reason to kind of
keep going.
And then, additionally, I thinkyou know the questions in the
book are not designed to likehelp you unpack all of your
trauma.
You know they're not meant tolike excavate deeply all of your
(36:59):
wounds or you know anythinglike that, and they're not super
light either, and they vary.
There's some creative prompts,anything like that, and they're
not super light either, and theyvary.
There's some creative promptsand some that are.
They're really meant, you know,self-dialogue is the goal,
sorry, the goal here and to helpyou know yourself.
You know different parts ofyourself on a deeper level, and
I think that's hard to do on ourown.
(37:19):
It's like how do I engage withself-investigation, like what
should I do?
So the prompts are meant tojust like take you there from a
lot of different angles.
But in the self-investigationand I think you know you made
this point that, like inside theself, is this whole galaxy of
stuff from.
You know, if you're 30 or 40,you've got a lot of stuff in
(37:41):
this galaxy and it's allconnected.
So even if you're 30 or 40,you've got a lot of stuff in
this galaxy and it's allconnected.
So even if you're tugging atone piece, these other things
may surface, and so I thinkhaving to hold that just on your
own can be a lot, and it's beenmy experience in my own journey
, from living in a way that feltvery miserable, where I
(38:06):
suffered tremendously, tofeeling a lot more agency and
like magic and creativity comingback into my life.
Being in groups was a reallyuncomfortable at the beginning,
but also a huge part of mygrowth and allowing me to kind
of come out and feel okay, justsaying what I needed to say and
(38:29):
having people feel how they feltabout it.
I still struggle with that,definitely, but yeah, so the
group is meant to kind of holdfolks through the process and
also give them the space to bewitnessed in what they're
finding about themselves and tohave a space to like speak it
and not just write it down andto also process.
(38:50):
Like you know, just having adialogue with yourself is good,
but then there's that questionthat you also came back to.
It's like so what do I do withthat like?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
how do I?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
what do I do?
This is at odds with the way mylife is like.
This means changing something.
Change is scary.
And then there's other peoplein the group who are wrestling
with the same kinds of questionsin their own ways, and you
create this constellationthrough the group of people who
can relate to each other ondifferent fronts at different
moments.
And I apologize, that was along answer, but it was such a
(39:23):
good question, but those aresome of the reasons yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, and to me, like , I think that this is where,
like, we need both, you know,yeah, I think that you know,
like nervous system regulation,like people who are like nervous
system nerds there's a lot ofemphasis that I see on
(39:49):
self-regulation, like how do youhold yourself, how do you be
with yourself with these bigfeelings, how do you, you know,
come to your problems in themost regulated way possible?
And to me, it's I've alwaysneeded the dance of both is like
(40:13):
, again, if we're talking aboutthe energy of the universe, like
I need the exhale and I alsoneed the inhale from my peers,
you know, and I also need theinhale from my peers, you know.
And when we don't, when we findourselves like in a place where
we're like, oh, I'm superself-aware, I've done all this
work and yet I don't want toshare with anybody else, and I
(40:36):
don't want to be vulnerable andI don't want to be like share
all these like scary bits withanybody else, it's like, oh,
you've just hit an edge in yourhealing path.
That, like is asking to betended to.
And I think that that's wherethese group things are so, so
important.
It's also a reason all thethings that you were saying
about.
(40:56):
You know, your beautifulcollective, which you know a
little biased because I'm partof that collective, like they're
all the same reasons that Icreated my programs that are
also group oriented is becausethere's only a certain amount of
work that we can do in these,like solo, siloed, hermit shell,
(41:19):
like crab existence where, likewhen we start finding these
safe places and I think it'simportant that we, like, are
finding places that we belongand we find places that really
seek to create as much safety aspossible, knowing that, like,
(41:40):
safety is also a co-creativeprocess between participant and
the space holder there comes anew layer of healing.
As you have your story sharedand as you have that mirrored
back, and you know, I think thatthis is where we can start to
see this like dismantling of thehyper-independent self, or the
(42:03):
hyper like codependent self aswell, is when we start to see
this like flexible breathbetween being able to
self-regulate and co-regulateand knowing what your needs are
within that context.
And to me again, this goes backto the same energy that we've
(42:24):
been talking about this wholetime of magician, high priestess
, initiating and responding.
It's the same vocabulary.
It's just like we're trying togive you a little bit of a sense
of how can we take the energyof the cosmos and bring it into
your everyday life, and to meit's that like inhale exhale
(42:45):
between self-regulation andco-regulation.
That's like an important partof, I think, everyone's journey
and we don't give as much valueto the co-regulation when that's
really something that we needas social animals.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, and it's like everything you said was so
beautiful, and also it's likewhy are we healing ourselves?
to just like stay alone and likefeel self righteous because we
got really healed.
Like we have to live in theworld and we have to interact
with stuff and including lots ofhumans, and usually our
(43:24):
motivation for healing isbecause our human relationships
are repeatedly not working theway that we want to, and that's
not entirely on us, but yeah, solike having a group container
where it's really establishedlike here's what we're exploring
, here's what we're exploring,here's what we're exploring
together, here's how we want tohold each other in.
(43:46):
This experience gives everyonea safe place, or a mostly safe
place, to um, start practicingthat before we even take it into
, like the relationships in ourlives that feel the most
vulnerable or tricky orsensitive or have a lot of
baggage in them.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah, and I would say that, you know again, I sort of
like speak to my people asbeing space holders, but you
know, this is anybody who is ina romantic relationship, is a
parent, is a friend, anybodywho's just relating with any
other human the more you're ableto find that flexibility
(44:30):
between inhale and exhale andbetween initiation and
responsiveness I think that'sthe muscle that we're flexing
when we are holding space foranother human and it's one of
the things that I say repeatedly, over and over and over again
is, you know, the best thingthat you can do for your clients
if you're a space holder, is todo the self-work on yourself,
(44:54):
so that when somebody comes inwith really big angry energy
that feels really big and likeexpansive, or they come in with
energy that they've internalizedand have shoved down into their
body, you can then track thatand mirror that and be like,
okay, I see that and Iunderstand it, because I've felt
(45:16):
and understood that myself.
And so the counterpoint to yourcollapsed anger that you have,
you know, directed inwardtowards your own body and
towards your own spirit, let mejust like give, bring it,
breathe in a little bit of yangenergy, so that there's a
counterpoint to it.
(45:36):
You know, so that there'ssomething that like that the yin
energy wants to like maybe justpeek out and be like hey, I
maybe want to talk about this alittle bit.
And again, I think it's wherethat nuance of if somebody is
super collapsed, I don't want tocome in with this raw, raw
(45:58):
cheerleader energy.
It it's about like, can I bringin, just like one line of yang
to counterbalance all of youryin lines where it's feeling
really stuck and heavy?
Or if somebody is coming in withthis like big, like, fuck the
world, like that kind of energy,it's like okay, so like, let me
(46:19):
bring in one line of yin energyso that we can counterbalance
and bring a little bit ofstillness without making people
feel misunderstood in thatwounded little kid part selves,
and how we're able to hold allthose parts for ourselves which
(46:46):
I think you know, tarot anditching are beautiful ways to
like, like, allow those parts tocome out and play and and being
able to offer that in serviceto our communities and to our
families and to the people thatwe love.
And, if you're a space holder,to our clients and to the people
that we love and if you're aspaceholder to our clients.
It's such a beautiful gift andreally I think of it as like the
(47:10):
alchemy of the universe playingout in the human experience.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
So good, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a perfect summation andI love that analogy of like
you've got six yen and I'm goingto bring one yang, or vice
versa.
It's like the hexagram one andtwo and magician and high
priestess.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Another way that we can arrange these yin and yang
lines just in the most simpleway possible is um, found in
hexagrams 11 and 12.
Um, and you brought in a coupleof tarot cards that you wanted
to talk about with those.
But, um, if I can just sort oflike very simply explain
(48:12):
hexagram 11 is earth over heaven.
So yin lines over yang lines,so three yin lines over three
yang lines.
Um, it is actually the tattoothat's on my wrist here.
It's my favorite hexagram.
It's a very, very importantreminder for me.
And then the counterpoint ofthat hexagram, the opposite of
(48:37):
that hexagram, is when heaven isover earth.
And so that's the three yanglines over three yin lines.
And I'll talk about hexagram 11.
First.
It's Tai, which is atranslation, for that is
advanced.
All the English translationsthat I'm using are coming from
(48:58):
the Huang Huang text that Ireferenced in episode 135.
And I'll put that in the shownotes here as well.
But the reason why Tai isanother translation for it is
peace.
(49:18):
The sort of image that comes tomind when I think about this is
like when there's a reallybeautiful stream, that's like
running with like no blocks inthe way.
There's like flow, there's ease, and the reason for that is
(49:39):
because earth, which is yinenergy, has a downward sort of
trajectory.
Heaven, which is yang energy,has an upward sort of trajectory
, and so when you have earthmoving down and heaven moving up
, there's like this beautifulplace where they meet, and like
that's where magic happens.
I think about this is whereconception would also happen is
(50:03):
when these two energies are ableto sort of meet.
While hexagram 12 is like itseems kind of counterintuitive,
and it took me a while to figurethis out, but we look outside
and heaven is over earth, right,and so it seems like that's
what nature is showing us.
But when you look at it interms of yin and yang energies,
(50:25):
heaven moves upwards, earthmoves downward, and so when we
play with that, it's likethey're moving away from each
other, and so there's aseparation, and that's why they
call it hindrance is thetranslation for hexagram 12.
And so now we're seeing whathappens when the magician and
(50:49):
the high priestess come togetherand what happens when they're
in disagreement, and to methat's like okay, so it can be
just the flip of a coin.
You know, like they're so closeto each other in terms of like
being able to work together andbeing able to not work together.
(51:13):
And so this is where we ashumans have to come in and say
you know, how can I insertmyself into whatever situation
that you're in, whateverdifficulty you're having, and
maybe you're receiving thishexagram for a reason.
What can we do to sort ofinfluence the like meeting back
(51:35):
of yin and yang again, and alsoit's a natural part of the cycle
as well, so like being able tolike accept that this is a part
of of our seasons.
So, um, hexagram 11 and 12 arealso title hexagrams and what
(51:55):
what that means is like they'rerepresentative of particular
times of the year.
And so hexagram 11 is February,right around February, and so
it's like that potential energycoming to life, like, if you
think about all the things thatare happening, if you live in a
world, or if you live in a partof the world where you have
(52:17):
seasons, like that's when, likeall the springtime energy is
like starting to percolate tothe surface and you can really
see that like earth meetingheaven, that like yin and yang
coming into marriage, sort ofenergy.
And August is the month that isdescribed by Hexagram 12.
And it's almost like hey, likewe have completed the harvest
(52:40):
cycle we're at the end and Ithink that you were sharing one
of the tarot cards has this ideaof like oh, this is a really
heavy burden and I need to putit down, and so that hindrance
is not always about there'ssomething bad or negative
(53:00):
happening.
It's like this is a part of thecycle where you might need to
put something down in order forthe cycle to continue.
So, yeah, I'll pause there,because I just said a lot of
things.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Yeah, it's been.
So.
Yeah, like I said, fun for mybrain to kind of think about
these two hexagrams and whatcards might pair up with them.
And it's so interesting, youknow that they have like a
timing and it's like a seasonaltiming and this like elemental
(53:34):
direction.
So I'll start with hexagram 11.
And I went back and watchedyour Taoist lunar calls which
others can go, um, access, um,and you had a whole, a whole
class, a whole workshop onhexagram 11 and because of the
(53:59):
kind of springtime association,the sort of ease and like
tranquility quality of thehexagram I'm just looking at my
notes really quick this kind oflike an equilibrium there, this
like the elements interacting ina resonant kind of way.
(54:22):
I think one thing maybe Chrissaid this in the daoist lunar
call, I don't remember, but itwas like yang coming out of
slumber, like coming out ofshavasana or something, and so
then you're you're like resetand you can go create, and so
the the card that I most see forthis hexagram 11 of ease and
peace and advance is the ace ofpentacles.
(54:45):
The card I'm holding says theseare coins if you're watching on
youtube, um, so this is theearth energy and this one always
reminds me of a seed.
So, like, everything that isneeded to create the form is
contained in this like smallthing, and it needs the heaven,
(55:06):
it needs the earth, like itneeds a good place to rest and
it needs, um, that activatingenergy of this hexagram to start
to unfurl and become.
And so this kind of feels like,um, like the magician enters
here to sort of do theactivation and create the magic
(55:27):
that will take.
Whatever the seed representsLike, let's say, it's your book
project or something you'readding to your business, and the
magician has, like, visualizedit and created some intentions
around it and then will create,like you know, needs to create
good conditions for itsmanifesting and then needs to
(55:48):
sort of like put it down andalso tend to it so it comes out
and the high priestess sort ofexists inside the seed.
It's like all of theinformation, the genetic, the
DNA information, all the ancientlegacy.
Let's say this was an acornthat would make an oak tree.
That one acorn has all thishigh priestess energy of knowing
(56:10):
what it needs to be in responseto its environment as those
conditions unfold, and kind of asecondary card.
I felt with that same hexagramwas the Ace of Swords, which is
like card.
I felt with that same hexagramwas the ace of swords, which is
like the.
You know, both aces are alwayslike an opening, a beginning, an
initiation moment, and in thecards we see this hand kind of
(56:33):
reaching out from the heavens tooffer either the seed in the
ace of coins, or the sword inthe ace of swords, and the sword
kind of represents like a newidea or a moment of clarity or
like a realization, an ahamoment.
So this could be like the ideaor the vision that can start to
be activated.
But we'll need more action anddevelopment and thinking to like
(56:57):
come into being.
And then for hexagram 12, whereheaven and earth are separating
and creating, when you say that, it kind of makes me think of
this like void, where like maybenothing is happening.
And as I watched the daoistlunar calls, uh, a word, the
word stagnation, came up and so,and also that idea of like
(57:21):
being in late August, like allthe harvesting is starting to
happen.
There's like a lot of work,it's really hot, especially
where I live at that time ofyear and increasingly in the
Northern Hemisphere.
(57:47):
And 10s in the tarot are likeculminating moments or moments
of completion where that seriesthat starts with the ace kind of
goes through its steps and endsup at the 10.
And there are court cards thatcome after the 10s, but they're
kind of like developing masteryof the element.
So the two 10s, the main onethat I coupled with the ace of
pentacles was the ten of swords,where we usually see a figure
(58:09):
laid out on the ground.
In this one the figure ishunched over and there's ten
swords in their back.
It's pretty gnarly, the swordsbeing the realm of the mind or
the realm of thought.
This is where, like, ourthoughts have become too young,
they've just like overtaken usand we're crippled by them.
(58:30):
Like this figure cannot reallymove, um, certainly can't move
toward their visions and dreams,like very paralyzed um, and
this signifies or I see it aslike a signifier of a breaking
point where, like, you've hitthis wall and it's not like the
end and it's not like uh, gameover, but um, also in this card.
(58:54):
Often, you will see, it's notshown here, but usually this
person's kind of like laying ona beach and there's, there is a
black sky, but there's thislittle band down here of like
yellow light, like the day iscoming, and so it's that
breaking point where we say,like this doesn't work, um, or
I've done too much, or um,something about this dynamic is
(59:20):
not suitable for me, like Ican't thrive in this.
And when you were talking aboutthe, the magician and the high
priestess, like not workingtogether and not, um, not
resonating like.
One example that came to mindwould be like, let's say, you're
in a new living situation andyou find it difficult to like do
your rituals or do your magicbecause you have this other, you
(59:41):
know shared space.
Let's say, and so it kind tolike do your rituals or do your
magic because you have thisother, you know shared space.
Let's say, and so it kind oflike falls away quietly.
And then you know you findyourself like freaking out or
like you're just having bigreactions, and maybe it's like
well, you can't, you got to goback to like your magic went
away and you need to go find itLike.
(01:00:01):
So there's a breaking pointwhere it's like I have to figure
out a way to do my ritual work,do my spiritual practices, in
this environment, or figure outa way for it to happen elsewhere
while I still live here, orsomething like that.
And then the other one was the10 of wands, which is fire, and
(01:00:23):
here we have someone carryingall 10 wands over their shoulder
You'll also see this card oftenwhere the person is carrying
the wands in front of them andthey're hunched over and the
wands create this visual barrier.
So even if a friend came towardthem, they wouldn't be able to
even notice or recognize theperson because they're carrying
so much.
(01:00:43):
And this made me think of likethe harvesting and like pulling
all the fruits in, pulling allthe vegetables in and having to
store them and just doing it inthe heat, and like it's
essential to the communitysurvival.
But it's also kind ofbackbreaking and the question
there is like are there enoughpeople pitching in?
to kind of do this work, becauseall the weight will just hold
(01:01:07):
you down and you can't.
You don't have the inhaleexhale exchange like you need.
So those are the cards I pulledin for those two.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Yeah, as you were speaking about the Ten of Swords
, I think I'm having like quitea bit of emotion coming up,
because I feel like what you'vedescribed is like kind of the
moment that I'm in right now.
I think that with both of these, there's this concept of a
(01:01:42):
breaking point that I'm pickingup as you're speaking of, like
hexagram 11 being the breakingpoint, of like that moment where
the seed like bursts throughthat little seed membrane and
it's like first little taprootis just like like breaching um
(01:02:04):
the surface or like you know,that very first moment when, um,
a cellular creature splits fromone thing to two things, to
four things.
Like it's that, like that, thatit's like a moment that I think
is just so beautiful thatyou've you've highlighted so
like wonderfully.
(01:02:24):
And then this hexagram 12 islike the moment where, like,
that fruit has been hanging onthe tree, like waiting to be
picked for so long and now itcan't hang on anymore and then
drops to the ground.
And there's this likeinitiation, a breaking point
where, like, the grief happensand I think that that's where,
(01:02:46):
like the, the like energy,around august and that time of
year, the like late summer,everything is is happening and
like holy shit, like we've gotto.
We've got to have enough handsto be able to do this together.
I think that the reason why thisfelt so emotional to me is
(01:03:08):
because those of you who followme on in my world I'm pretty
open about, like, what my lifeis like and what's happening in
the world, and my husband and Ihave been living with people for
about a year and a half so thatwe could save up money to buy
(01:03:33):
our dream property and um, andwe've been pet sitting for the
last four months, um, so that wecould save up, and we just
bought a condo and we're aboutto close on our condo, like
literally like a week from now,and I'm at this point of like
breakage where I I'm like, I'mso ready.
(01:03:53):
I'm like please get us in ourown space Immediately.
The dogs that we are petsitting are incredibly difficult
.
They're elderly and so theyhave a lot of special care needs
, which is important to them,but also it's just a lot.
So, like this is just areminder.
(01:04:17):
Like this is why I love talkingabout this, because I feel like
the energy of nature is justreminding me like hey, this is
one part of the cycle.
Like once we move past thislike breakage point which is
happening, and I think that partof the reason my husband and I
were just noting to each otherlike hey, like we've been really
good about actually one of usfalls apart at one time and,
(01:04:42):
like this week, we've both beensort of like on edge and just
like like a little bit, justspikier than usual, visual um,
and and I think it's because ofthis like energy that you're
describing around the ten ofswords of like like we're done,
like it's right there and andlike there's like a little bit
(01:05:03):
of like a running out ofpatience that happens around you
know hexagram 12 and ten ofswords, I'm hearing, and even
ten of ones of like like toomuch form has happened and like
this fruit needs to drop now, umis kind of the energy.
Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
So, yeah, I think that you described that really
really beautifully yeah, and Ithink, like it's so hard to be
in those moments when you likecan't take it another day or
another minute sometimes, butthey also show us so much about
what we need and how, likeexquisitely and profoundly we
(01:05:44):
need it.
And, yeah, you get to feel thatcycle of like.
And then the, the release oflike.
I have keys and the only me andmy husband can get in this door
and no one else can get inright now, and inside, on the
other side of that door, we cando whatever we want.
(01:06:04):
It's all ours.
So you also like.
Life gives us that contrast oflike oh, this doesn't work for
me for much longer, and thenthat relief of like okay, yeah,
this is what me meeting my needsfeels like.
Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
Yeah, yeah.
And just to sort of bring thisinto context, I wasn't sure I
didn't know I was going to talkabout this today, but that
energy ofation is like exactlywhat I'm feeling right now.
And a couple of days ago I hitlike this like breaking point.
(01:06:43):
I feel like I got like if Iwere to draw tarot cards that
day, I might have drawn the Tenof Swords and the Ten of Wands
that day, just like, oh, I'mdone.
And the dogs were being a lotand it was just like like when
they're a lot, it's like superchaotic in this house.
And then it started raininglike kind of hard, and like the
(01:07:05):
thing that I do to likeself-regulate is like go for a
walk and go outside and go dosomething with my body.
And I had this like little kidtantrum moment where I was like
like I don't know what to do.
And so I sat down like we, wehave our own space downstairs
(01:07:27):
here and I just sat down and Iwas like, okay, like we can't
walk outside I know you want towalk outside Like what can we do
?
And so I'm like I love thatthese archetypes are sort of
coming in.
And the high priestess came in.
I kind of call her like my wiseself and she was like well, you
(01:07:48):
can't walk outside, we have tojust sort of accept that.
So, like, what can we do?
And so I drove to the mall, likeliterally paste the mall, like
I didn't go in any of the stores.
Actually, I went into thebookstore but I like paste the
mall and just like did laps upand down, like I don't think
anybody noticed that that's whatI was doing, but it was just
(01:08:10):
like what my body needed was tojust like move.
And so again there's thatconcept of like okay, I felt
like supremely stuck, like I wasin this place, of like can't
move, full like yin collapse,like freaking out, but like not
having anywhere to put thatenergy.
And so then it's like okay, soif that's where you're at, let's
(01:08:32):
bring in some yang Like, howcan you bring in yang?
And for me, bringing in yangwas going to the mall and
walking.
Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
So yeah, good solution.
There was a time.
I can't do it now, my knees arenot healthy, but I was running
and like training for a halfmarathon and it was getting
close to the race and I had to.
It was like time for me to runlike a 10 mile and it was
(01:09:05):
raining.
It wasn't raining super heavy,but it was raining and I was.
I was on the phone with myfriend and I was like I should
do this run, but it's likeraining and I don't really feel
like it.
And she was like, uh, runningin the rain can be fun, Like
it's just fun, Like, and I waslike, oh huh, and then I went
(01:09:27):
for a run in the rain and it wasamazing.
So I'm glad you found the mall,but if it happens again, again,
I mean obviously if it'storrential and if you're in a
hilly place and all of that.
But I was just thinking likesometimes there's an at least
there's like some noise outsideand you can just scream at the
sky.
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
I mean, I think that I I generally am not like pissed
off at the rain.
Um, I think it was just likeanother layer of discomfort
would have just like solvedanother problem.
Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Yeah, solve for another frustration.
Yeah, yeah you're like universe, why yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
exactly, um, which I mean.
I think that I I partially Iwant to share this story just
because I think it's like a goodillustration of like how can
you bring in young energy?
Or how can you bring in theenergy when you know you're
feeling this way?
But also it's something thatactually one of my clients asked
me, and she was like Can I askyou if you ever get dysregulated
(01:10:30):
Like, dysregulated like and youknow, I think that we have to
be real as space holders, thatlike we are, we are human as
well.
Guys.
Like, like I'm not sitting hereon top of like a completely
healed mountain, being like ohyeah, I'm in a zen state all the
time.
Like no, I had a five-year-oldtemper tantrum this week because
(01:10:54):
it rained and I didn't want tobe inside.
So, like, I'm curious how youwould answer that question of
like hey, cecily, like you seemso calm and collected all the
time.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
Yeah, no, it's not, and part of the reason I was
able to draw on that analogy iskind of a similar like situation
.
I've been um, living morefull-time with my boyfriend the
last couple months and our homesare very close together but
(01:11:35):
I've like someone else is livingin my home now and also part of
like the extended family of ourcommunity and so, but I'm an
only child and I've lived bymyself a lot and I had my own
house and I have a yard and Ihad all these birds and this
(01:11:56):
house is great too and myboyfriend's amazing and I love
him very much and he also has a13 year old daughter and usually
they go, you know, one weekhere she's one week with her mom
and for a while she was likefor the first couple months of
this year, she was staying withus full time because her mom
(01:12:16):
needed to take care of somefamily stuff, and so I just had
less of that like solitary spaceand.
I don't have children and like Idon't, like she's an amazing
kid, but I just like I had notlived full time with a teenager
(01:12:37):
for two months before.
And so I was just like reallystruggling and also like I don't
.
It's a different role.
It's like dad's girlfriend, butlike not step parent, and like
mature adult but like and alsoroommate but like.
So it's just like how do Iplace myself?
And like this is all this stufflike I haven't had to think
(01:12:59):
about or, you know, do before,and it's.
It was really like I was havingvery difficult internal
struggles trying to figure outlike what do I need and how do I
ask for that and how do I showup in a good way for him and for
his daughter and also give themspace and like.
(01:13:22):
It's just like a lot ofinternal negotiation and also
like plenty of space to be like.
Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
I suck at this and so there's that other layer of
just like giving myself a reallyhard time.
Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
So I'm not always dysregulated and sorry.
Well, I'm not alwaysdysregulated and I'm not always
regulated.
But it's also one of thosethings where it's like I think I
invite.
You know, I definitely invitedthis into my life and this is a
place of growth for me and onsome level I'm ready for it,
even while I have no liketraining or like true
(01:13:58):
preparation.
Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Um, and so, yeah, it's like how can I hold on to
myself and like hold for themtoo in a way that honors me and
honors them, and it's true, lotsof feels, yeah, and I think
that, like for me, when I amlike looking for I want to say
(01:14:25):
practitioners, but like I think,as I'm saying that out loud, it
goes beyond that.
For me, it's like, if I'mlooking for co-collaborators, if
I'm looking for friends, if I'mlooking for anybody who I want
to actually have some sort ofemotional intimacy with, I don't
(01:14:46):
want to be in relationship withsomebody who denies the fact
that they get dysregulated.
I don't want to be inrelationship with somebody who,
like pretends that, like thingsare all fantastic 100% of the
time.
You know, you're not a robot,yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
I don't want to be Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
And so it's like hey, we do this work First for
ourselves, I believe, because wedeserve to have the most rich,
full human experience that youhave while you're on this planet
.
So do this work of flexiblymoving between inhale and exhale
(01:15:31):
for yourself.
And we also do this workbecause it allows you to be
somebody who is able to be likereally real with your life
experience.
You know, without any sort oflike mirrors or like smoke and
(01:15:51):
illusion around, who you are andwhat you're about.
And I think thirdly and this issomething that we've touched on
earlier in the conversation islike this actually makes you a
safer person for the people whochoose to be an intimate
relationship with you.
(01:16:12):
I think about all the peoplethat I asked to hold me and I
know that I can lean on thatbecause they've held themselves.
To the extent that they've heldthemselves I don't really want
to take my stuff that feelsreally heavy and, you know,
asked to be held by somebody who, like, doesn't have the
experience of holding themselvesin that capacity, somebody who,
(01:16:36):
like, doesn't have theexperience of holding themselves
in that capacity, because thenit'll turn into this like really
sticky and meshed relationship,um, and so, yeah, I I felt like
in this conversation of likereally fleshing out, like yin
and yang, and you knowpractitioner and client and you
(01:17:01):
know space holder and spacereceiver, like I think that we
as humans are going to sort offlex between all those different
roles, and and how do you movebetween those spaces is an
important question to ask.
Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
Yeah, and this is kind of making me think of like
this is no zero shade ontherapists, like I have had and
we'll have therapists again inmy life but just the way it's
like therapists go through thisformal training and of course
they have like a lot of practicetraining like you know they,
(01:17:38):
you do a lot of hours to becomefully trained.
But, um, you know, I don't, andI do think the training does
ask therapists to look atthemselves, like that's part of
it too, but it's like the formaltraining about like what
therapy is and the differenttheories of therapy.
That's not enough to necessarilylike be a good provider for
(01:18:01):
someone, but that inner work andthat's kind of why, you know, I
created the workbook too.
It's like how do we do that andhow do we talk to ourselves?
And and like yeah, like seeingthat, like when you have those
those feelings, of course you'rereally in it and it feels very
like like you're in this closetjust with like all this stuff.
(01:18:23):
But when you can pull back youcan also see like I'm learning
something here.
I'm growing in some way here.
My work in this moment is totry to do x or Z with myself and
with the others around me andyou have like a kind of by like
a two part existence where it'slike the you that's experiencing
(01:18:45):
and the maybe a little youthat's on your shoulder, that's
like watching and trying to helpand like remind you.
And then when we go through that, as life hands us that over and
over again, it's like we canoffer some of what we gleaned
from those really difficultthose 10 of swords, 10 of one
moments um to know with our,with our clients, like here's
(01:19:10):
what I feel like might behappening and here's how I can
position myself or create thatcontainer and um, maybe that was
a little bit of a word salad,sorry, no like.
Speaker 1 (01:19:20):
I I mean again, no shade on therapy.
I've also been through a lot oftherapy and, um, I don't know
that that's actually the realm.
That would be helpful for me inthe future.
Um, to me there's a reallyimportant delineation between
what coaches do and whattherapists do, and I think
(01:19:43):
therapy is important for when adiagnosis is needed, and I've
seen that be such a healingexperience for many of my
clients where they have receiveddiagnosis and it explains and
helps them feel like validatedin a lot of the experiences that
they've had throughout theirlife.
That kind of hasn't made sensefor them.
(01:20:04):
For myself, if I went totraditional therapy, I probably
would be diagnosed with ADHD.
If I went to you know,traditional therapy, I probably
would be diagnosed with ADHD and, like I personally don't feel
the need to like have thatdiagnosis to explain what my,
what my life is like, and so Idon't see that as being a part
(01:20:25):
of my future.
But I do know that, havingcoached several therapists who
have turned into coaches,there's this like you were
saying this, like formaltraining, and almost this idea
of like you aren't allowed toshow up as yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:20:42):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
So that the other person can take up more space.
Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
And so I think that in like the context of diagnosis
, like that, feels reallyimportant to have those
boundaries delineated.
The reason why I have a lot oftherapists who move into
coaching I think at this point Ihave five who have moved into
that realm, clients who havedone that is because they come
(01:21:11):
to this point in their careerswhere they're like I want to
tell my story.
I actually think it would behelpful for people to hear parts
of my story so they can seethat there's a human on the
other side of this.
And for a lot of my clients,like, sharing that humanness
actually helps them feel lessalone in the world, and I think
(01:21:34):
that that's where coaching getsto be.
Again, I never want to encroachon the therapy world because
that's not what my calling is,that's not at all what I feel
called to do, and I think thatpeople get really confused about
where are the lines betweencoaching and therapy sometimes.
And to me, like this is where,like coaching, you are allowed
(01:21:58):
to share parts of your life andI think it actually is helpful
and therapeutic and you have tobe really impeccable with your
boundaries, because in thatsharing, how can you then bring
that other person, their storyalive as well, that other person
(01:22:22):
their story alive as well andhold them like as important and
um, and help and have yourstories be like a part of like
how they see themselves and soum, like again there's that like
really beautiful nuance.
I see therapy as being a lotmore of a young practice,
because we need standards, weneed structure, we need like
identification, and I seecoaching as a little bit more of
(01:22:45):
a young practice and like hey,like the lines can get a little
bit mushy and we still need tohold really, really important
boundaries to create safe spaces.
Speaker 2 (01:23:05):
Yeah, and I just think story is so crucial to
healing.
And yeah, if you're onlydelivering a story as like an
abstract thing or a story aboutlike Joe or whatever, like it's
like an analogy, there'ssomething kind of lost there.
But if it's like a story thatfeels like real life and
obviously you know, as coaches,we're not like here to just tell
our life stories to our clientslike we pull from the right
(01:23:27):
story at the right moment andyeah, then our like people
really can.
It's an example.
It's like oh, here's howsomeone got through this thing.
Here's how someone got throughthis thing.
And here's someone else whostruggled the same way.
I'm struggling right in thismoment and here's what the other
side of this can look like.
Yeah, if I'm willing to, likeyou know, be with what's here in
(01:23:48):
the moment.
So yeah, yeah bringing storiesin are just so powerful.
Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
Yeah, I think that that concept of like hey, I've
been here too, I've been exactlywhere you've been and I'm here
to like walk beside you, is sucha powerful tool for healing
that we don't really um like.
I think it's why the coachingworld is growing so much bigger
(01:24:14):
is because we're starting to seethe importance of that concept
of like, hey, I can walk besideyou because I've done this
before and you know, just matchyour steps to my steps, so it's
going to be okay.
Yeah, Well, my dear, anythingelse you want to like bring in
(01:24:35):
to the space around all thesebeautiful concepts that we've
all used?
Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
I guess you know, as this episode is coming out in
springtime, I guess that's aninvitation for folks to kind of
notice.
You know, look around at heavenand earth energies around you
and imagine how they might beinteracting.
And you know, hold the magicianand the high priestess in mind,
(01:25:04):
like where are they for you?
Hold those aces, the swords andthe pentacles, like where's
your seed, where's your idea?
But also where do things feelblocked or stagnant?
And just you know.
I hope this can be a frameworkfor curiosity as people move
(01:25:24):
through this season.
Speaker 1 (01:25:30):
If you're finding yourself in hexagram 12, energy,
like I am asking yourself, hey,like, do you need a little bit
more yin right now, or do youneed a little bit more yang to
help just change the energy andchange the dynamics a little bit
?
I think would be another sortof curious question to hold.
Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
Yeah, and I can almost see too, like feeling
into the body toward whateverfeels stagnant or stuck.
Does it feel like mud or clay,does it feel like a big boulder?
Does it feel, you know, yeah,like what kind of energy feels
like it's in there and whatenergy in nature might help it
(01:26:16):
soften or dissolve or shift alittle bit, whether it's like
maybe if I sat by a creek, ormaybe if I talk to the trees, or
you know, let it be sometimessimple, yeah awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:26:31):
Well, thank you so much for hanging out with me.
I've learned so much.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
Yeah, I've learned so much as well, and it's just
such a joy to, yeah, investigateand share stories with you same
z's um, let's drop.
Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
just drop in with our uh ways that people can find us
, so why don't you go first?
Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
Cecily, yeah, you can find me at typewritertarotcom
and on Instagram attypewritertarot.
And if you're listening onKat's podcast, you can find more
about tarot and living acreative and magical life on my
podcast, your Creative andMagical Life Love it.
Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
And if you're listening via Cecily's podcast.
My name is Kat Lee and myInstagram handle is kathosulee
website kathosuleecom, and Ialso have a podcast called the
Rooted Business Podcast and Ihope we get to connect.
(01:27:39):
I love hanging out with peoplein DMs and I really do read
messages, or every singlemessage that I get back, so I'm
pretty friendly out there.
So come, hang out Very friendly, alrighty.
See you next time, cecily.
Yes, very friendly, alrighty.
See you next time, cecily.
Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:27:57):
Look forward to it.
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