Today, we will dissect the cultural narratives surrounding wealth and the daily ethical decisions of running a service-based business. My guest, Empowerment Coach Cara Kovacs shares personal anecdotes that illustrate the liberating shifts that occur when individuals align with their authentic selves, drawing parallels to the entrepreneurial path of purpose and value-driven living. Together, we challenge the stigmas attached to money and redefine it as a resource for building impactful relationships and achieving goals.
In this conversation, we dive into the delicate dance between advocacy, business ethics, and the healing journey of financial trauma. We stress the importance of safety and self-sovereignty in coaching and the empowerment that comes from self-trust. We share our own values on how we engage with social and political activism in our businesses and invite listeners to consider their own values to create business policies that align with their own personal and business ethos. If you're passionate about integrating your values into every facet of your business and life, this episode is a powerful stepping stone toward that journey. Join us for an episode that's not just about doing business but doing it with integrity, purpose, and a profound understanding of the impact you wield.
Resources:
- Cara interviewing me on The Business Witch Podcast
- I found Cara's Values to be so inspiring that I'm working on my own Values Statements for my new website!
- Antiracist Business Book by Trudi Lebron
- A Renaissance of Our Own by Rachel Cargle
- I Survived Capitalism and All I Got Was This T-Shirt by Madeline Pendleton
Cara Kovacs is an intersectional feminist, trauma-informed empowerment coach. Named as 2019’s one of “35 People Under 35 To Watch In Wellness” by Wanderlust, she has helped hundreds of people actualize their deepest dreams. In her 6th year of multi-six figure entrepreneurship, she has helped her clients make millions while building their soul-called work and sharing it with the world.
Connect with Cara:
Kat HoSoo Lee is an Emotional Alchemy Coach, Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Emotional Alchemy Podcast.
She loves playing in the space where science and spirituality converge because this is where we get to experience emotional alchemy. In her work, she educates space-holders about somatic physiology and environmental biology so they can deepen their practices of listening and presence which ultimately helps them expand their capacity to hold space for others.
As a Spiritual Business Mentor, she guides soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. The work bridges the emotional landscape with practical tools which allow them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, relational marketing and purposeful service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Ritdid Business Podcast.
Today I've got someone on that.
I have been quiet followingslash stalking for a little
while, kara, and when shereached out to me about being on
her podcast I was like, yes,but will you also come on my
(00:22):
podcast please, because I wantto pick your brain too.
So thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thanks for having me and I want to give a shout out
to all the quiet stalkers outthere.
Tell the people that you'restalking that you like to work
and remember, if you are abusiness owner, that you have a
quiet stalker to.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
It's true, it's very true.
I feel like my entire clientbase is like made up of quiet
stalkers.
Like whenever they sign up towork with me, I'm like where
have you been?
And they're like I've beenhanging out with you for two
years, you just didn't know.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, I have people in my group programs being like
nobody liked my post and I'mlike I never heard of you until
you joined this program.
Have you ever liked a singlething that I've ever posted?
They're like huh.
No, it's like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
It goes both ways, friends.
It goes both ways, it's animportant reminder.
Yeah, but before we jump in, Ijust want to share with folks
that you and I are doing apodcast trade is kind of how I
think of it.
So I am over on the BusinessWitch podcast.
She's over here.
(01:36):
So if you love Kara, go hangout with her on the Business
Witch podcast.
And you know, just for fun, doyou start with the one that I
was on, the episode that I'm on.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I love that.
I appreciate you saying that.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, oh my gosh, so many things that I want to talk
about with you, but one of thelike big pieces that I've been
personally kind of likegrappling with and I'd love to
learn from you, because I seeyou doing this so differently
than I do is how can we embodythe impact that we want to have?
(02:21):
Another, that is, in promotingsmall businesses, in talking
about capitalism, in, you know,talking about some of the
political things that arehappening in our sphere of
advocating for, you know,communities that we feel really
aligned with.
How can we clarify where Iguess where we want to make our
(02:45):
impact and how muchresponsibility as business
owners we have in sort ofdriving those conversations
forward?
And, yeah, I'm kind of curious,maybe just giving people a
framework of any of yourthoughts and philosophies and
values around that and why youchoose to make decisions in the
ways that you make decisions,because I really admire the way
(03:06):
that you show up in this sphere.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Thank you.
I really appreciate that and Idefinitely want to say that that
was cultivated over time, so itwasn't something that I had an
easy answer for when I started,and I think probably a lot of
people can relate to this.
There's many ways in which Ihave stumbled clumsily through
that process, but where I'vearrived now and you know, want
(03:29):
to shout out teachers that havehelped me get to that space,
very specifically Trudy Lebron,who has been my coach for the
last couple of months and who'sthe author of the anti-racist
business book.
But just really immersingmyself in a different kind of
coaching philosophy over thelast couple of years has helped
(03:50):
that, and so I want to name thatfirst, because I think finding
teachers who you really alignwith can be so tremendous for
making that process easier, tohave a frame of reference that
feels value aligned for you.
And then the second thing interms of a framework.
You know I said value alignedand the easiest way to make
decisions about anything youever want to do in your business
or your life is from a valuesbased perspective, and Trudy has
(04:13):
a values exercise in theanti-racist business book, and
then Rachel Cargill in her bookA Renaissance of Our Own talks
about personal values, and Ithink it's okay that if your
business and your personalvalues are different and that's
where people get stuck sometimesthey think they have to be the
same thing and they don't.
Maybe for some of you they are.
(04:35):
And that's the other thing, too, that I'm not putting a moral
imperative on other people tohave the same values that I have
.
I want to partner andcollaborate and coach with
people who are value aligned.
But alignment is not the samething as a synonym.
It doesn't mean that we havethe same values.
So those two resources I justmentioned provide you exercises
(04:56):
for clarifying your personal andyour business values.
And where I start in mysignature program, which is my
lowest tier offer, and we'rerenaming it, so by the time this
comes out right now it's calledBusiness Switch.
I'm ideating a fun new namebecause really the root of that
program is teaching serviceproviders how to build the
framework for a value alignedbusiness.
(05:17):
It's not actually super witchy,so I was like we have a
branding issue, I'm going toswap that out, but title TBD.
But we start with values andthe thing that values really do
for you is they are an arrow andthey are an anchor, so they
tell you where to go and theyalso make you feel safe in the
decisions that you make.
And so, in cultivating my ownpersonal business values, which
(05:39):
are slightly different fromvalues I might have in romantic
partnership or friendship orcommunity, I am very clear on
how I want to show up, based onwhatever issue it is that we're
talking about.
So my business values areintegrity, authenticity,
(05:59):
accountability, and I'mforgetting the last one right
now it's been a day I have fouror four of them oh, sovereignty.
And so for me, what feels mostin integrity is to be authentic.
That's why authenticity andintegrity they kind of go
together for me.
But what feels most inintegrity is to act in a way
that is congruent with myself.
(06:20):
So it might not be in integritybased on somebody else's
definition of integrity, andthat's an important distinction
that I've had to learn inchoosing to be vocal about
issues that I care about.
But for me personally, in orderto be in integrity with myself,
to feel morally congruent withmy own thoughts, actions, what I
stand for, how I show up inspaces, being honest about my
(06:42):
opinions and making statementswhen I feel, so called, is in
alignment with my values If thatis a sign to somebody else that
they're no longer a good fitfor my community, I lovingly
release you.
I hope you find somebody who'sin alignment with your values.
Another thing about thataccountability has been such a
(07:03):
hugely important component ofthat.
I am a cisgendered white woman.
I coach people from alldifferent walks of life.
I can't guarantee safe spacesbecause there have been many
times in my own coaching thatI've been blind to my privilege.
So part of having anaccountability practice and
position as a value framework islike I can't tell you that I'm
(07:25):
not going to mess up, but I cantell you that we're going to
have an accountabilityconversation for that.
Now, what I mean when I say thatis accountability to my own
integrity and my values and myclients, not to people on the
internet who want to drop randomthings in my DMs and expect me
to be accountable to them.
That's not an integrity, that'snot an authentic choice for me.
(07:47):
So essentially, I've just laidout for you how those values
which are core to me help meknow exactly what I should do in
a situation if somebody isasking for a refund, if somebody
has negative feedback.
If I did this last week, I'mlike teetering a little bit of
overwork right now and I'mgetting a little grainy, a
(08:10):
little irritable crunchy becauseof it.
I said something in a way thatI did not intend, and my values
indicated exactly how to takecare of that situation, even if
inside I'm like I would preferto avoid and pretend that that
had never happened.
That would be operating out ofalignment with my values, and
the thing that I love aboutchoosing these things is you
(08:31):
build a much stronger businessmodel from them, because you're
making decisions that are rootedin what you believe in and not
necessarily how you feel, basedon something being hard or scary
.
And when we make businessdecisions rooted in how we feel,
we don't make the strongestdecisions.
So your values are going to bedifferent than mine, and if one
of your values is privacy forexample, my partner one of his
(08:53):
values is privacy.
He is an artist in a particularindustry where it wouldn't make
a lot of sense for activism tobe a part of his work, but as a
personal value, it's reallyimportant to him, and so
protecting his privacy and ourrelationship is not part of his
work, whereas I'm talking abouthow polyamory and business are
(09:16):
related all the time on myplatform, because authenticity
is my value, like that's a veryclear example of how those
things can look really differentand still be aligned for people
.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
There's several things that Iwant to like circle back around
to, but something that feelsreally, really important to just
like highlight and like neonsign emblazoned is your personal
values do not have to be thesame as your business values,
and I feel like that's wherepeople get like real crunchy and
(09:48):
sticky and feel a lot of.
I'm thinking back to like likeclients who have had this
struggle and it's like guilt andshame.
Guilt and shame, guilt andshame come up and then that
makes it so that it's easy forsomebody to come into their DMs
(10:10):
and say, hey, why aren't yousaying this about X, y and Z,
whatever the issue is, and itleaves them vulnerable to acting
out of integrity with theirvalues, acting from a place of
dysregulation, acting from aplace where they feel perhaps
pressured to move faster or takean action before they're ready
(10:33):
to or if they're ready to, andso I think that that is
something that like, like for me.
It's you know, four years intobusiness for you.
I don't know how long you'vebeen doing this, but like, like
that has come with experienceand time, of being like anchored
and rooted in in my own valuesand being like no, actually,
(10:55):
that would be out of integrityfor me to speak about, I think
in particular I'm thinking of,like, this most recent conflict
with Palestine and Israel, and,while I have a very, very strong
personal stance on what's goingon over there, I'm just gonna
pause so that the siren can goby.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, sorry, I was like it's okay.
Where is the mute?
I was trying to mute myself.
Please continue.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
You know.
So like, even though I have avery strong sort of personal
value and belief system aroundthat conflict, I don't feel like
I am educated enough or reallyunderstand the like nuances of
that situation enough to liketeach about it, and I really
think about my platform as beinga teaching platform and so,
(11:45):
like, I'm never going to teachlike to me.
Like that's where the integritypiece I think that you and I
sort of tie in is like, for meto be an integrity with my work,
I have to know that this issomething that I know I can
teach about.
For me to be able to speakabout it, you know versus.
You know if there was some sortof like conflict happening that
(12:07):
involved, you know, theAsian-American diaspora, or you
know if something god forbidhappened in Korea.
Like that is something that Iknow, that I can speak on and
teach about, because that comesfrom my own personal lived
experience and I know a lotabout that.
Versus what's happening in theMiddle East is not something
(12:28):
that I fully understand, and somy integrity my personal and
business integrity is to sitback and learn from people who
this is their work.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, there are a few things I want to say that I
feel like are gonna be like.
I don't know why.
I feel like they're gonna becontroversial.
Maybe they're not, maybethey're not at all, but I just
think that there's an obsceneamount of pressure that people
put on the people they follow onthe internet and then also that
people put on themselves to berepresented like you have to be
(13:01):
perfect to show up in thesespaces.
We don't put that up well, weput it on our politicians, but
it just seemed to matter, and wedon't necessarily put it on
businesses in a super meaningfulway.
Like being a small businessowner is an incredibly
vulnerable and courageous act.
Like to opt out of dominantculture and say I'm gonna build
(13:23):
a life for myself and constructsomething that's gonna support
me takes a tremendous amount ofwork, and to presume that
anybody who's doing that shouldbe an expert on how to do it
perfectly and in total moralcongruence with your own
personal opinions about how theyshould act is insane.
But it's like how we show up onthe internet.
There's a social media cultureof like they said something that
(13:46):
I didn't like and like now Idon't like them and I try to be
really careful with that,because I'm just as guilty of
doing things like that as otherpeople are.
You know, I I think about thisanytime.
Like me and my friends are shittalking a celebrity, I'm like I
don't know anything about themand we're having a completely
super flouist conversationrooted in absolutely nothing.
And like people are talkingabout me in some kind of a way
(14:11):
because there are enough peopleout there who know who I am and
who project on to you or me oranybody that they see on the
internet the person you went tohigh school with, who you still
follow your ex-boyfriend's newpartner like you're just
projecting these judgments thatlike aren't made in anything.
And then, as a small businessowner, I was listening to the
(14:31):
Financial Feminist podcast,which is one of my faves.
Really love Dream podcast guest.
I'm like manifesting that I'mclaiming it here, but I was
listening to that podcast andone of her guests, madeline
Pendleton, who wrote a bookcalled I survived capitalism,
and all I got is this lamet-shirt.
She was talking about how ourcountry does not provide
(14:52):
universal basic income, healthcare, child care, like all of
these things that are kind offundamental human rights, and
then the onus gets put on thesmall business owner like we're
the American Dream, apparently.
Apparently we've accomplishedwhat is supposed to be the
American dream.
But like, if my assistant needneeded paid maternal leave,
knock on wood.
(15:12):
Or family medical leave,whatever it is, knock on wood.
I couldn't afford to pay herher salary and hire a new person
because I'm a small businessowner with limited resources.
But we look at our Instagramlike the, the, the quiet
stalkers out there who arewatching what we're doing and be
like oh, maybe one day I canhave a business like cat, maybe
(15:34):
one day I can have a businesslike Kara.
And then they say somethingthat isn't in congruence with
your own personal beliefs andall of a sudden they're trash
and we have to be really carefulthat we're looking at people
that way and in total honestyand total transparency.
My own journey in business inthe last two years has been one
(15:55):
of the like, to me fundamentallymore difficult than when I
started.
When I started, I had a kind ofderanged sense of confidence
that I was gonna be a reallyreally great, really really fast
, and I think that's why Iachieved results very quickly.
But I was very much bought intoa lot of coaching communities
that, in my opinion, now, beingoutside of those communities,
(16:16):
operate from within a kind of ML.
Me like skeevy manifest yourway to a million dollar year,
even if it means predatorilyselling to people who you put
into a financially precarioussituations in order for them to
pay you.
I was like coaching in thosespaces.
And as I began to divest andreally think more critically and
(16:39):
have my own journey ofemotional maturity as a business
owner, I was angry and I waslike this whole community is
trash.
I like hate everything that Ilearned.
And now, with a little bit ofdistance and a little bit of
healing and a little bit ofrecalibration to what, how I
want to show up and how I wantmy values to be reflected in my
business I'm able to look atthat and be like, well, it's not
(17:01):
all bad, like there are thingsthat you really benefit.
You built multi six-figurebusiness because you learned in
those spaces.
And then I love what Kellydeals says about this.
She's like we're all in thewater, we're all wet, so we're
all deconstructing harmfulthings that we've picked up,
whether it's messages about howthin we should be or how our
(17:23):
relationship should look or howwe should feel about money or
self-confidence or whatever itis.
We're deconstructing thosethings all the time.
That's a lifelong journey.
And then when we look at otherpeople who are on their own
version of that and say, well,they're a terrible person
because they didn't show up theway that I think a person with
that kind of platform should beshowing up in a moment like this
(17:43):
, I would like to say to themshut the fuck up.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
I love it, I I also just want to like name the like
necessary grace that we need tohave in order to like pull
ourselves out of these systems,you know, and the sacred anger
that is also necessary in thosespaces.
(18:11):
And so, like, what I'm hearingin your story is like, hey, like
you started to become moreaware and you started to see,
you know, hey, that's really nothow I want to run my business.
That feels a particular way inmy body that doesn't seem to
align with these particularvalues that I've set up for
myself.
And in order to like exit thosesituations, I think the anger
(18:37):
is necessary oh yeah, I was mad.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, I'm still a little bit mad, I'll be honest.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I'm so mad.
Yeah, fair.
But I think that, like, as westart to like exit those
situations, it's also importantto like take a pause in the way
that you just beautifully didright now, which is like, hey,
it wasn't all bad.
You know, I, as you werespeaking, I was just like sort
(19:04):
of like overlaying myrelationship with my ex-husband
over on top of it, where it waslike, in order to get out of
that relationship, I needed to alike find that sacred rage that
was within me and then likemove to, like get myself out of
that situation.
And now I can look back and say, hey, it's been several years
(19:24):
since I've been in thatrelationship.
It wasn't all bad, right, like,but the nuance comes with
regulation, and so I think thatwhat I'm seeing a lot in the
world right now when it comes tothis, like us versus them, like
the judgment of you have to dothis a particular way, or you
(19:45):
know you have a big platform, sowhy aren't you posting in this
particular way is like this,like culture around
co-dissregulation.
That seems to be sort of likesweeping through these like
social media spaces in a waythat is like sort of touted as
like this is how you find yourpeople when it's really like
(20:09):
what you're doing is you'recontinuing to perpetuate cycles
of dysregulation.
When you're doing that versusone of your values I want to go
back to a sovereignty is whenyou're able to say, hey, this is
how I feel, this is my lane,these are my boundaries, these
are my values, and you'reallowed to have your own
thoughts, feelings and opinionsand your own values and your own
(20:29):
perspectives.
And can we still see each otheras human beings and can we
still learn from each other?
And is there space forcuriosity and understanding and
perhaps even just like anopening up of your own
perspective in ways that like isactually like really regulatory
(20:49):
?
Go ahead, you had you openedyour mouth yeah, I mean there's,
there's.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
My brain goes in five different directions.
I'm like, should I say this?
Should I say this?
Because there's so many thingsthat I think of when you're
saying this.
But actually what I was feelingcalled to speak about was to
bring it into the conversationabout what's happening with Gaza
and Israel.
So, like I am Jewish, I'mfirst-generation American.
My family was decimated in theHolocaust.
(21:19):
My grandfather was one of 11 tosurvive.
My grandmother was one of twoout of nine who survived.
My family fled during theCommunist Revolution in 1956, in
the middle of the night with mynine-year-old father to
Brooklyn, and I was raisedlooking at photos of my family
(21:40):
with little Jewish stars ontheir shirts.
When I was 19, I went on abirthright trip and I was in a
closeted queer relationship atthe time, which Israel is gay
friendly, we can give it thatbut my personal feeling of shame
that I was having about that atthat time was such that I
(22:01):
didn't make any friends on thebirthright trip because I was
afraid of being judged.
So, very opposite of howeverybody is, you wouldn't have
recognized me.
I was like super quiet, likesuper reclusive, like it felt
like nobody liked me, eventhough it wasn't anything
anybody had did.
It was like a totally internalexperience, but there was
something that was happening,because I decided to separate
(22:24):
myself from the group that I wasable to look more critically at
what was going on and I was 19,I didn't understand it, but I
was like something about thisfeels very weird.
And then, when everythinghappened a few months ago, I
started to revisit why I feltlike it was weird, and you and I
talked on my podcast about afeeling of dissonance in your
(22:46):
body and what I was made awareof was how I had experienced,
like a nationalist brainwashingevent that like I didn't have
that language for at that time.
So, like, when you arrive onbirthright I promise I'm getting
somewhere with this that islike relevant to what it was we
were saying.
But no, I want to hear this.
(23:07):
When you arrive on birthright,they hold signs that say welcome
home when you get into theairport, and I remember being
really confused by that, bybeing I'm like, I'm Hungarian,
like what do you mean?
And then essentially saying,like this is your land, and it's
kind of like okay, when Jewsare asking right now, or
(23:29):
Zionists, I should say, areasking right now, like do you
think Israel has a right toexist?
I'm like, do you think theUnited States has a right to
exist?
To like imagine ChristopherColumbus like holding a sign for
all of the Europeans who, likelanded in the North America,
that was like welcome home.
It's literally the same thing.
And I like thought back tohaving had that experience and I
(23:51):
was like, oh, I didn't resonatewith it because, like they were
sharing a theory with me thatis is colonization and something
about it felt off.
I didn't have the language forthat, but it was just, and so I
felt really called to speakabout that because it was
relevant to my personalexperience exactly differently,
(24:14):
differently.
And this is where, like, theaccountability piece comes in.
When BLM happened in 2020, Ibecame very radicalized in a
particular way, where I was likeshoving do the me and white
supremacy workbook down thethroat of every white person
(24:35):
that I knew, kind of like to thepoint that my mother was like
you need to, like I'll take abreath.
Actually, I'm like you need todo it right now.
And she's like I'm gonna.
I'm not gonna do it right now,but you need to do it right now
or you're a bad person, right,and like I can look back on that
experience now and be like thatwas my own fragility and my own
(24:55):
saviorism, because I felt badabout like myself, about how I
didn't know those things.
So when I was like beingintroduced to those concepts, I
had a sense of urgency that, inorder to make myself feel better
, I made my myself responsiblefor like making sure every other
white person that I knew wasdoing that.
Yeah, and so I think likethat's why I mean why we're all
(25:17):
in the water and we're all wet.
Those are two very differentexamples of ways in which you
know major historic events thathave radicalized a lot of people
to activism in a new way, likethe responses that I had to that
.
I'm not saying that like theone that I had about Israel is
necessarily even right.
What I'm saying is like both ofthose responses were really
born out of like a hugeemotional and impactful moment
(25:40):
where I wanted to do what I canto feel in congruence with
myself and that doesn't meanthat I made 100% of a perfect
choice and while everybody elsesimultaneously is experiencing
an ongoing collective traumathat is making most of us
depressed to expect people toknow perfectly how to show up
(26:01):
when there's no frame ofreference for that, because our
times are continuallyunprecedented and I shared my
own personal experience ofancestral trauma and
relationship to that.
So people are alsosimultaneously experiencing that
and maybe haven't had theprivilege of having space,
health for them to like reallyunpack what that means.
(26:21):
The way that we act with eachother is.
There's so much stuff.
It's an iceberg.
I think we talked abouticebergs on my podcast, I can't
remember.
It's an iceberg where you'renot seeing that story that I
just told you about, like all ofthose other things, and people
are arguing and they'reprojecting their own iceberg
onto the other person and whenit comes to, like your personal
(26:44):
versus your business values.
My business exists because Ithink that small business owners
can impact policy change and wecan impact shifting the wealth
gap and we can impact who getsfunding for political campaigns
and we can impact the culture ofhow we do business.
I'm genuinely only interestedin business coaching because of
(27:05):
its relationship to socialadvocacy, so to remove that
component of that interest frommy business, my business would
be like less interesting to mepersonally.
For other people they might bein this because they feel some
kind of soul calling to themethodology that they teach and
being an activist is somethingthey want to do in their
personal time.
We all need you right now.
(27:26):
Like I do have a kind of moralimperative about there, like we
need to be staying informed, we?
I don't want to make anystatements about voting because
I think we're gonna have likethe biggest third party.
I'll pause again.
There's another another guycoming on through.
Sorry, I live next to a firestation.
No, it all makes sense.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I'm in a city.
I get interrupted for snow, youget interrupted for sirens.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yes, Okay, I think we're good.
I do think we're gonna have areally surprising election with,
like third party turnout and alot of people opting out of
voting because they don't feellike they like the options, but
like completely opting out ofthe conversation.
It would be to deny ouressential interconnectedness and
(28:15):
how we're all on this dyingrock together that we need to
make collectively less hot.
So, like personally, I thinkthere's a moral imperative about
being engaged.
But to expect a small businessowner to make political
statements because they are asmall business owner, versus to
understand why their businessexists and operated an integrity
(28:35):
for them and then conductthemselves as a citizen and
integrity for them.
It's really expecting somethingfrom people that a lot of
people haven't expected.
From Taylor Swift, for example,like she could be being more
politically active.
My opinion.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, I think the contrast of those two stories
feels like thank you so much forsharing them.
And like the thing that Ireally just want to like
highlight there is the level ofintegration and regulation that
you have to come to in order tohold your own boundaries around
(29:14):
this kind of space.
And, you know, I think that ifwe all take a moment to take a
breath and try to act in waysthat is responsive versus
reactive, I think that we would,all you know, perhaps have a
little bit more wisdom to drawfrom, because our bodies are
(29:38):
going to tell us things are.
You know, our values are goingto tell us things.
We're going to act in ways thatfeel more in alignment with,
with what it is that we trulyfeel.
And you know, I think that whenyou are talking about this, it's
like I love the boundaries thatyou have when it comes to this,
(30:04):
because, you know, when you'relike saying hey, like one of the
most important things aboutrunning a business or helping
small businesses is because Iknow that you know this moves
the collective forward and ithelps shift the dynamics and it
helps with like wealth,distribute, distribution and all
(30:25):
that stuff, and it's like, yeah, that can be true for you and
it could be not true forsomebody else and, like you,
there's a lot of permission anda lot of space for people to be
able to make those choices forthemselves, and that's something
that I really, reallyappreciate about how you are are
moving the conversation forward, because it's like, even though
(30:45):
that's true for you, it doesn'thave to mean the same thing for
somebody else.
You know.
And for me when I, when I thinkabout it, it's not necessarily
that I want to do like activism,work around like small
businesses, it's more of hey.
Like I know that I, as a smallbusiness owner, make different
choices around buying things,and then you know, the CEO of
(31:10):
Target, right, and so I wantthere to be more money in the
hands of people like me becausewe're going to be more aligned
with sustainability.
We're going to be more alignedwith, like you know, making sure
that, like people are paidfairly.
I have like a huge push towards, you know, homesteading and
(31:30):
growing our own food and makingsure that the clothing that we
wear is ethical.
And so, like I want more peoplelike me to have more money
because, like you know, ascliche as it is, like we do vote
with our dollars.
You know whether you vote inthe political sphere or not.
Like we do vote with ourdollars and I feel like that's
such an important piece that,like that doesn't get talked
(31:54):
about enough.
And like, if I can help someonefeel more regulated in their
system, so they they like theblocks and the challenges that
come up around business likehave an opportunity to melt away
.
Like I'm going to do everythingthat I can in order to help
them move through that, becauseI see the bigger picture of like
(32:14):
, hey, like.
I want 50, 500, 5000, 50,000small business owners to have,
you know, more spending power,because the world's gonna look
really different once we havethat spending power.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Exactly.
And another thing I heard onthat financial feminist podcast
is that poverty is a policydecision, and so when we see
issues like the housing pricesare so astronomical that people
who are making the averageAmerican salary can't afford to
own a home, that's not happeningin a vacuum.
It's happening because ofpolicy decisions.
(32:49):
And one of the things that Italk about on my platform so
much is that entrepreneurship tome is a form of liberation,
because you're essentiallysaying like you can't cap how
much money I can make, you can'tcap how I earn money.
Like you can't tell me how I'mgoing to conduct myself or my
business practices.
What you think is professionaland you meaning dominant culture
(33:10):
, like isn't personally resonantfor me.
Like I'm gonna live my life inthe way that I want to live my
life and I'm gonna thrive, notin spite of capitalism, but
completely, completely separatefrom, not its influence.
Like we're obviously influencedby this context that we live
(33:31):
within, but it's not in spite ofanything, it's like for
everything.
It's not like anti, it'sbecause I want to create what is
aligned for me, and then myhope is that in my work, I help
other people do that, and Ithink that that is really needed
right now, like the idea thatthe American small business
(33:52):
owner is the American dream is.
It's not reality, because mostpeople can't afford to buy homes
in the United States and mostpeople that I know, like in my
community that I coach, theyfeel like they have to be
married to jobs that they don'tlike in order to be financially
secure.
That's not happening in avacuum.
That's a policy decision.
(34:13):
That's the way that our economyhas been structured.
We perpetuate these ideas oflike go into student debt and
you'll get a job, and then yougo into student debt and you get
a job that you can't afford toown property from.
We teach calculus, but we don'tteach people how to save for
retirement.
I like it's insane to me likepeople put money into their 401k
(34:37):
but they don't know that theyneed to invest it, and then like
they get to retirement and theydon't have enough money to live
off of because we didn't teachfinancial literacy.
But like you had to go tocalculus class, right.
So the other thing that I thinkabout entrepreneurship is it
actually really invites you toget very real about the
circumstances so that you canbuild your own, and I think that
(34:59):
that's so empowering becausewhen you look at the reality of
what you're capable of and like,what you actually want, versus
what dominant culture has toldyou you should want, or is the
path to get that, whichoftentimes for most people
doesn't even work anyway, Ithink it's actually safer to be
an entrepreneur than it is towork at a job that you don't
(35:22):
like, because you know what'sgoing on, because you have to
and you have agency and nobodycan fire you except yourself.
So I see it as a way ofbreaking free of a lot of these
social imperatives and economicconstructs and creating
something that empowers you tolive the life that you want to
(35:43):
live and that is, in many ways,more real than what we thought
we were going to be able to have, based on these stories that we
were told.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I definitely agree with that.
And you know, like, now thatI've done this entrepreneurship
work for so long, I think to methe thing that I've found so
liberating is being able to justreclaim, like, who I am, like I
don't have to hide my tattoos,I don't have to hide the fact
(36:14):
that I had, you know, I've beenpolyamorous in my life.
I don't have to hide the factthat I'm queer, like, like there
are so many things that again,as you say, like the dominant
culture still, even in theUnited States, is maybe in a
more subtle way now, but isstill pretty discriminant
(36:35):
towards, towards like I can sayfuck and like no one's going to
like say anything about it, youknow.
And versus, like when I workedin the medical industry, it was
like you got to keep your youknow arms covered and it's still
a very like conservative way ofquote, unquote, looking
professional.
(36:56):
And it's like now that I'm outof this like box, like you can't
stick me back in you know, andI think that the folks that I've
coached that sticking pointwhere you're sticking your head
out of the box and you're beinglike is it really okay, Am I
allowed to do this?
(37:17):
That feels like the mostvulnerable moment where it's
like okay, so this is a jump outof the box moment, or go back
in the box.
And if we can hold more peopleto be the most vibrant and
bright and expressive andauthentic versions of themselves
and I'm recognizing that I'musing very expansive language,
(37:44):
like very young language part ofthat is also like maybe you,
the most authentic version ofyou, is quiet and deep, like has
these deep roots that go down,like whatever it is, that is the
most authentic version ofyourself.
Like, if we can encouragepeople to feel safe in those
(38:04):
moments where they'retentatively taking those first
steps, I think that, again, ifwe're looking at sort of like
the individual steps that havethese like big culture and
collective shifting moments, Ithink that that's one of them
and it's something that I thinkyou and I both like seek to do
(38:25):
for our clients is like, hey,that validation that you didn't
get when you were a little kid,like I'm here to be your
cheerleader when it comes to youexpressing yourself.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
What this is making me think of is, like the
metaphors that people havealready to know this in their
own lives.
Like all my friends are gay.
So is that a song?
All my friends are gay?
I don't know.
Anyway, all my friends are gay.
And like I'm thinking about, youknow them before they came out
versus after of like the oh myGod, what are people going to
(38:59):
think?
Are people going to be upset?
Is this something to be ashamedof?
Now there's vibrant communityand radical self expression and
actually being in therelationships that are right for
them, that make them happy, andso I think that, like you know,
when you were talking aboutusing expansive language, what I
was thinking about is, likethis story of this is the thing
(39:20):
that's supposed to make youhappy.
For 99% of us, it does it.
And so when you actually dowhat makes you happy, you know I
had a six figure job when I was26 that I was so depressed.
I had Sunday scaries everysingle Saturday because I was
like, oh my God, it's almostSunday and then I have to go do
that job again and I was like isthis my life?
(39:43):
Like I was very depressedliving in that model, and I've
been depressed trying to justconform myself to other people's
ideals, and so I understand.
For some people, their versionof that is not going to be to be
a business owner.
It's going to be on a team,working within a company that
they actually feel mission,aligned with or respected as an
(40:04):
employee at, or being in arelationship where they really
feel seen and validated and cancontribute to their community.
And like it's going to be yourown version of that and finding.
You know, we talked about thison my podcast, too, when you
were talking about reallyfinding what your purpose is and
aligning with that, which isthe same thing as figuring out
your values and living a lifethat's rooted in your values.
(40:26):
And what I will say, justbecause I think it's important,
like to tie it to one insomething that I really like
teaching about and to somethingI think that our audiences share
is like, okay, but what do I dowith that?
When it comes to making moneyand the way in which I feel
about it being bad to make moneyor evil to make money or bad to
(40:52):
charge for my services, likeI'm sure some people listen to
this or like if I was rooted inmy truth, I would live on a
commune where we traded all ofour seeds for all of our eggs or
whatever, and we don't live inthat system.
And I just want to encouragepeople and this is like really
the tip of this conversationthis could be an entire second
(41:14):
episode but like I just want toencourage people that if you opt
out of participating in thisculture, instead of trying to
shift it through being selfempowered, self directed and
having self agency, the systemgets to just continue to exist.
So nobody is being helped byyou not charging for your
(41:34):
services and by you saying likeI don't want to participate in
looking at the money in theworld and I think that's part of
it.
If anything, I think that thatactually gives money way too
much power.
A lot of coaches teach thatmoney is energy and I
fundamentally disagree with that.
Money is a theoretical conceptmade up that we've all opted
into, agree that we believe init like is mostly on a screen.
(41:56):
It's not real.
Your energy is what controlsyour relationship with money and
how you wield and use it inyour own business.
And so when we aren'tfetishizing it and what I mean
by that is selling really reallyhigh, bespoke quality services
because we want to make a lot ofmoney, so we only work with
(42:17):
like people who can pay us ourhigh rates and full or
fetishizing it by means of likeI'm not going to charge because
that's bad and that's wrong andI shouldn't do that.
And like we should all be likegive me a dozen eggs and I'll
give you a coaching session orwhatever.
Like that is also fetishizingmoney.
And so both ends of thatspectrum give money so much
(42:38):
power and give this like largerconstruct and this larger system
so much power.
As opposed to, I'm going to usemoney as a tool.
Like money is a tool.
Freedom is a goal, having abusiness that has a larger
impacts, that I'm well resourcedenough to be able to provide
sliding skill services to peoplewith need and donate some of my
(42:58):
time into my community.
Money is the goal thatfacilitates that.
Just like social media may notbe something that you love, but
it's a marketing tool that is agoal that gets like, or a tool
that gets your, your word, outto your community.
You may not like love writingemails, but people need to know
what it is that you're selling.
So all of these things aretools and don't over emphasize
(43:22):
the power that they have andthen feel limited by them,
because it's really diminishingthe impact that you can have in
your business and it's alsoprobably helping to reinforce
some of the very things thatyou're trying to deconstruct.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, thank you for saying that, because I think you
know it's something that Ifundamentally agree with too is
like I don't think about moneyas being an energy I definitely
like road that way for a whileand just ended up blaming myself
when I didn't have enough moneyor like it ends up becoming
like yet another sort of victimcycle.
I think that when we startlooking at some of these things,
(44:02):
like you said, like socialmedia, newsletters, money as
tools, we then start thinkingabout, well, what is that really
helping me build, and so like.
When I look at social media,I'm like that is a tool for me
to build relationships.
You know, and I can use socialmedia, I can use the newsletter,
I can use flyers at, like, mylocal coffee shop, like whatever
(44:25):
it is like.
As long as we have this likeidea of like, okay, the goal is
to build relationships and youget to choose how you want to do
that.
You know, and you know, when Ithink about money as being a
tool, it's my tool, for freedomis how I think about it, because
it's like, once I have money,it allows me to have the freedom
(44:50):
to choose who I want to spendmy day with, however long I want
to spend that, you know, timedoing that with that person.
And so, if I can sort ofdeconstruct this idea that, like
, money is energy and you know,it comes in like a river and it
flows out like, like, like.
No, it is a tool and it helpsme have in define a relationship
(45:17):
around freedom that helps melive the most authentic version
of my life, and so then, youknow, it feels like a cleaner
way to also participate withincapitalism, because then it's,
you know, it's no longer this,this esoteric thing that I just
(45:37):
need more and more and more andmore and more of like.
There is a certain amount oflike enoughness that's going to
come when there's satiation, andI think that is one of the
problems with capitalism.
Is this constant drive to alwayshave more and more and more
versus being able to like sitback and be like hey, did I
actually accomplish the goalthat I really wanted to
(46:00):
accomplish, which is, like Ihave the freedom to sit on my
land and have a conversation aslong as I want with Kara, you
know, sweet, do I have thefreedom to be able to say yes to
only the clients that I reallywant to work with?
Then yes, you know.
And so when we pull out thelike energy within these social
(46:26):
constructs and we just are ableto sort of like look at them as
like neutral things you know,social media is a tool,
newsletters are a tool, money isa tool then we get to define
how we want to relate to thatthing and how we want to use it.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
What I wanted to say when you were saying like money
is an energy is like if moneywere energy, it's been largely
attracted to colonizing whitesupremacy for the majority of
human history.
Like money can't be like.
It would be a weird energy tobe connected to because
(47:03):
historically it's beenmonopolized and controlled by
oppressors.
And so the way that I invitepeople to think about the energy
, if they want to commune withmoney energetically, is the
energy of abundance, and so manyof us, whether we're well
resourced financially or not,feel abundant in some area in
our lives.
Maybe it's like having anamazing sandwich for lunch, or
(47:26):
like having really good friends,or like the abundance of love
that you feel with your pet,like there's an area in your
life where you're alreadyactually able to feel like what
it feels to be abundant and togo on a healing journey where
you can apply that energy ofabundance to financial security,
which, just like our values aregoing to look different, are
(47:49):
what financial security meansfor us is going to look
different.
I live in LA.
You need $1.5 million to buy ashithole in LA and I'm not even
I'm not even being likeemphaticious about that.
It's literally like go onZillow and like look at what
they're selling something thatis a two bedroom next to the
(48:13):
highway that has like noplumbing in it for $1.5 million
in LA.
So like, if you want to be aproperty owner in LA, you're
going to have a differentfinancial goal than if you have
four kids and you live inMinnesota and $1.5 million can
buy you four mansions.
But you also need to save forcollege tuition.
Some people who work with methey're trying to replace their
(48:35):
annual salary.
Some people who work with mewant to have a seven figure
business.
Your money goals are your moneygoals.
Your values are your values.
Like let's build you what youwant and be in celebration of
that.
Because we all want to livedifferent lives, but we all want
to live lives of meaning, wherewe feel safe and we feel like
we can make a meaningfulcontribution to society.
(48:59):
Like that's what my peopleshare and the path to get there
is going to look different andthe healing journey to get there
is going to look different.
And to presume that money is anenergy, particularly for my
clients who have differentexperiences of privilege where,
like, we all have money traumabut, like, for some of us,
healing our money trauma is avery different journey than for
(49:20):
the other ones of us, and totreat it as if there's like some
kind of blanket mindset workwhere you can think your way out
of having it is unethical androoted in a lot of these social
constructs that we've beentalking about dismantling this
entire episode.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Yeah, I think one of the things that I really just
want to like it this is going tobe like my life's work, I feel
like is like thinking about thehealing journey as being this
cookie cutter experience that,like, if I just go through these
10 steps, then I will somehowget to this like healing place,
(50:01):
and I feel like that's how a lotof the money is energy
conversations revolve around isthere's a lot of mindset,
there's a lot of mantras and,you know, when you get to the
end of the 10 steps and somehowyour relationship to money
hasn't healed, I find that a lotof people end up blaming
themselves.
(50:21):
And then, when we sort of buyinto this concept around, like
money being energy, then I feellike it starts to play a lot
with the like manifestation.
You just have to, you know,believe yourself to your goals.
When, like, we need I don'tknow I don't have like a set,
(50:46):
like sort of manifesto ofbusiness values, necessarily but
I feel like sovereignty wouldbe such a huge one, because I
find that, like when people feelsafe and that journey of safety
can look so, so different.
And this is where I feel like,you know, the the cookie cutter
things don't work.
(51:06):
Once you feel safe, people comeup with the most beautiful,
beautiful solutions to theirproblems you know, and and.
So I think that ultimately, aspractitioners, what we all need
to be doing whether you're inmoney coaching or business
(51:30):
coaching or relationshipcoaching or whatever it's really
about safety being the medicine, because when safety is the
medicine and you center safety,then people are able to find the
sovereignty in their own livesto make those decisions and find
those solutions for themselves.
And to me, that's like wherethe the magical things happen,
(51:56):
because, like then, I can pullmyself out of the equation and
they don't have to be reliant onme for the rest of their lives.
You know, I never want to be ina situation where now I've now
created this like codependentrelationship with a client and
they're looking to me to be therescuer of all their things, and
and and I think that that comesfrom really being able to
(52:18):
center safety and help peoplewith whatever toolkit you've got
, like everyone's got adifferent toolkit yeah help
people really feel safe.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
I also think creativity is really hard to
have when you feel unsafe.
Yeah, it's just like you needspaciousness and safety to
access creativity.
And I really appreciate whatyou said about like creating
that codependence, like the sortof like MLME, like put it on a
(52:51):
credit card kind of coachingspaces that I was like I don't
actually think that I want to doit this way anymore.
It felt very much like youalways need to have a coach.
You should always have a coachif you're a coach and my
business has made so much moneyoff of reenrollments and I'm a
Cancer Moon I do not like sayinggoodbye to clients.
I like love the people that Iwork with and I always get kind
(53:13):
of like oh my god, I'm not gonnalike know what's going on with
them.
But what I found from workingin a one-on-one capacity for
such a long time is that thereactually is a point where I feel
like I've set somebody upreally well to know what they
need to know, to like build asystem and a structure, and
(53:34):
usually what I do in those casesis for clients who've been
long-term clients I've startedto sell, like downsell
consulting packages to so likewe can touch base if they have a
problem, like they can come askfor support.
But the idea that you shouldalways be outsourcing or gut
checking your decision makingwith a practitioner is one of
(53:54):
those theories that I wasactually like.
I don't think that this ispersonally resonant, because I
was in my as the client.
I was in my own coachingrelationship where I was like
every single time before I everdid anything, I was going to
somebody else to ask if it wasright.
That's a really interesting wayto be the CEO of your own
(54:16):
business, and what it actuallyturned into was me taking advice
that was completely out ofalignment for my own values.
I acted out of integrity withwhat I felt was the right
decision to make, because mypractitioner was so adamant that
she was right and it ended verybadly.
(54:36):
It's one of the things that Imost deeply regret ever having
done in my entire career.
I was able to like apologize,take accountability, have a nice
exchange with the person thatwas impacted by it, and I'm not
even blaming that practitioner,because it was my decision to
act out of my own consciousnessand take her advice.
(54:58):
But it really awoke to me likeI've decided that you're right
over what I know to be true formyself, which is where
sovereignty is so important andwhy I'm like hey, I like I feel
like I want to be posting aboutPalestine all the time, but like
that might not be the way thatyou want to show up.
I'm not like I'm not hey, youshould really be doing that like
(55:19):
no, that's not.
That's not how you coach peopleto be the way that you are.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yeah and I think that when you center safety, you
also center self-trust, you know, and so one of the things that
I always have with my one-on-oneclients who graduate out of
their packages is, like, hey,I'm always going to be here, you
know.
Like it's almost like knowingthat your parents got your back,
(55:43):
no matter what, but like youmight be the one who has to call
them up just to say, like hey,I need help, you know, but it
doesn't mean that, like you know, you'll never, ever, ever need
to coach again.
It just means that, like, Ithink that you have enough tools
within your toolkit to be ableto make a lot of these decisions
solidly, and if you need athought partner on this, like
(56:05):
I'm here, you know.
And so I think that you know.
That is one of the things thatfelt really cringe to me about a
lot of the MLM type coachingstuff that I was seeing, and I
actually have a very, very likepared down Instagram now,
because I just got kind of sickof seeing that as being the only
(56:26):
business model Is this idea oflike you always need to have a
coach.
Like no, like sometimes youmove on from relationships
because you got what you neededfrom that relationship and
you've grown and like thank youvery much and sweet Like, can we
still stay in touch?
Because, you know, I genuinelylike Cancer Moon as well.
(56:49):
I genuinely just like love,knowing how people are, you know
.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Yeah, for sure, and I think there are ways in which,
like I am a consultant for acouple of companies where it's
like I help them build theinfrastructure and then they can
touch base as they need to andlike I love that, I love having
long relationships with people.
But there's also something tobe said for knowing what you
specialize in, and I really feelstrongly that I specialize in
(57:19):
helping people build a systemand then scale said system.
But if you're like managingthat system, what is my role
besides you gut checking whatyou already think is right by
contacting me, and so somethingthat's changed a lot in my
business in the last year islike I love working with people
for two-ish years and then Ifeel like we probably did the
(57:44):
thing.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
Yeah, I have one more question and then I'm just
trying to be mindful of timehere.
But we've talked so much about,you know, activism in whatever
form it takes.
But how can we take action assmall business owners if we want
(58:09):
to be in a bigger arena when itcomes to specifically like
small business activism?
Speaker 2 (58:15):
So there's a great, actually an organization called
Small Business Majority that aclient of mine referred me to
and I sit on the board for theCalifornia Council and they have
a council based on what yourstate is, and they go to
Washington to speak on behalfand represent small business
owners as they are impacted bypolicy decisions.
And even if you just get ontheir email list like, they will
(58:37):
say, like are you somebodywho's been a victim of like
predatory lending for gettingfinancing for your business?
Like, we would love to talk toyou.
I had a client who went toWashington on behalf of Small
Business Majority to talk abouthow some of the child care laws
that were going into place wouldimpact small business owners
who are mothers.
So that's a really like easyway to engage with small
(59:01):
business owners and reallyunderstand, especially based on
your state, how policies areimpacting you in particular.
Now I want to make adistinction just from an
industry perspective.
Like, you and I operate more inthe online world and we're
service providers, and a lot ofthe people in Small Business
(59:22):
Majority are like product-basedbusiness owners or they own
actual brick and mortars in thestate that they live in.
So it was really cool for me tojoin that community because it
wasn't the way in which I hadcome into being my own business
owner, which was much more likea location independent.
You can be a digital nomad Ihave clients in New Zealand and
(59:43):
Canada and the UK and all thethings but I think, in terms of
activism, it's a great place toconnect to and, even if you just
sign up for their emails, Ithink that's a great place to
get started.
I've already talked aboutTreaties Book.
I think everybody needs to readTreaties Book, the anti-racist
business book.
(01:00:04):
It will give you a valuesexercise.
It will also talk about howbusiness is really, really
personal.
It's the opposite of that adage.
Business isn't personal.
It's so, so, deeply personaland I think anybody listening to
this knows that already becauseit was really personal.
To put your face on a platformand be like, hey, buy a thing
(01:00:24):
for me, like it stirred up a lotof stuff for you probably.
So recommend that book so muchand it'll give you like whether
or not you choose to be anactivist, whereby you're using
your public business platform tospeak about causes that you
care about.
If you are a service providerwho's working with people who
have different backgrounds fromyou.
You have a professional and apersonal responsibility to
(01:00:47):
understand what it looks like totake accountability when you
mess up because you're blind toyour privilege.
To understand what it lookslike to, as best as you can,
create safety for a diversepopulation.
To understand socialresponsibility as a business
owner.
I think that that book does areally good job of outlining how
to do that, and then obviouslyit's like a continued lifetime
practice.
(01:01:08):
So those are some places to getstarted.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Yeah, I love it.
And I also just want to nametoo that like your activism can
look very personal to you.
So, like you know, my nervoussystem goes when you talk about
going to Washington and likerepresenting small businesses.
But when it comes to like thesmaller scale stuff, when it
(01:01:31):
comes to I believe very stronglyin local government and the
impact that individuals can havelike on the local level, like
that feels really juicy andnourishing to me, you know.
And so like I think that whenwe're talking about activism, if
we can like we sort of likeunpacked and dismantled, like,
(01:01:52):
hey, activism has to look like aparticular way, like even in
this arena, the scale of it canlook anywhere, from you
impacting individuals in like aone-on-one relationship all the
way up to like bigger.
You know political arenas, andnone of it is wrong as long as
it is an alignment with whatyour values are and what you
(01:02:16):
feel an alignment with and whatyou feel like your particular
lane is.
So I just feel like that feelsimportant to name there too.
Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Yeah, and I mean, how can we dictate for other people
?
How should they should beshowing up like nobody?
It should be.
That's why when people try todo that in my DM's, I just
ignore them Same.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
I mean, to be fair, I've had like really really good
discussions, particularly aboutIsrael and Palestine, or like,
yeah, israel and Palestine, whensomebody comes to me with like
genuine curiosity, you know, andit's easy to like find that
tone and and it's like, yeah,like let's have an expansive
(01:03:04):
conversation about this, like Imight need to learn something
and you know, you might need tounderstand why I've made certain
decisions.
But, like you know, anytime wego into any space dictating or
trying to convince somebody todo something that we feel like
it should be done our way and wethink we know better, I I don't
(01:03:27):
ever see that going well.
Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
So quit it?
Yeah, can I?
Can I say one thing about thatactually, just because I feel
like it's very relevant.
What I've learned in going onthis journey of being like I
don't want to participate in thecoaching industry in this
particular way is that, in orderto build trust with people who
have either been harmed by thatmodel or who were already
(01:03:50):
suspicious of it, because theyfelt like it wasn't right for
them, that to go in full-onattacking it creates a
dissonance where people are notable to understand how what I do
might be different for them orfeel safe enough to be
vulnerable enough to trust me tolisten to what it is that I
have to say in the first place.
And so what I've learned onthis journey in that particular
(01:04:11):
realm that I think is alsoapplicable to activism, is like
anytime you go into aconversation and you're like
you're wrong and here's why, orlike this is bad and here's why,
like people freeze up and theycan't meet you.
So it's what you said aboutsomebody approaching you with
curiosity and being tender andlike genuinely wanting to know
(01:04:32):
where you're being witnessedwithout being judged.
It creates this kind ofspaciousness, and I really had
to apply that as a businessmodel as, instead of, you know,
being like I was harmed in thisparticular way and like it was
bad, I try to be like have youever noticed this thing?
That happens like here's abigger cultural trend that I've
witnessed within the industry.
(01:04:53):
Have you been impacted by that?
And then people are able to seethemselves in that without
feeling like they're beingnecessarily targeted, and
there's like a more opendialogue.
That gets to happen.
And anytime that we're going in, you know all systems go fire
and brimstone burning and liketear it down, like you're gonna
lose most of the people whoprobably care about what it was
(01:05:16):
that you had to say yeah if youweren't approaching it that way
yeah, and you might even losepeople that were on your side to
begin with.
Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
You know, that's that's where I felt my
resistance going up is like, hey, like I'm on the same side as
you.
Like, can we just chill?
You know, and you know, one ofthe things that I always talk to
people about is, if you onlysee two options, that means that
your nervous system is in asympathetic state.
(01:05:47):
It means that you are in afull-on fight or flight mode,
and so, instead of moving andactivating in that space, like
taking the time to look for yourtools to self-regulate, to
co-regulate with other people,to find folks that are willing
to do that work of like tryingto understand where you're
(01:06:09):
coming from, so that you can seethat nuance before you take an
action.
I feel like is such animportant thing, and and it's
it's one of my own sort offilters in terms of like, do I
say something or do I not saysomething is like, if I only see
two options and one is good andone is bad, then this is not a
(01:06:30):
time for me to say something.
It's actually a time for me to,like do a little bit of deeper
digging personally.
Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
I love that.
That's a great tool for peopleyeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Well, my dear, I would love to just invite you to
share how people can find you.
What are you sharing out in theworld right now?
And, yeah, I'd love for mycommunity to go poke over into
your world thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
You can find me at Caracobaxcom.
We're at Caracobax coaching onInstagram.
I'm sure the correct spellingof that will be in the show
notes, but it is here with a C.
My podcast is called businesswhich, and I have a signature
program that we launch everyJanuary, may and September that
teaches you how to build theframework for an ethics service,
(01:07:21):
an ethical, service-basedbusiness, and I love it.
You get coached for me twice aweek for the 12th of a price of
one-on-one coaching with all thetools, tips and tricks to build
a service service.
I'm gonna take up from the topand we're gonna edit it.
You can get all the tools, tipsand tricks to build a
(01:07:43):
service-based business in a waythat is ethical, aligns with
your values, can be profitablewith sliding scale, has an
intersectional feminist praxisfor how you sell and how you
serve, and so, if you're like,damn, that sounds like what I've
been looking for.
Our next launch is May of 2024and you can head over and
subscribe to my email list to bethe first to find out about it
(01:08:06):
sweet.
Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Well, thank you for joining me here today and I hope
people go over and check thatout and, at the very minimum, go
check out her podcast.
I really enjoy your podcast andI was really excited to be a
guest on your podcast, so thankyou oh, thank you so much, it's
been great yeah.
Hello and welcome to the Ritdid Business Podcast.
Today I've got someone on that.
I have been quiet followingslash stalking for a little
while, kara, and when shereached out to me about being on
her podcast I was like, yes,but will you also come on my
(00:22):
podcast please, because I wantto pick your brain too.
So thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thanks for having me and I want to give a shout out
to all the quiet stalkers outthere.
Tell the people that you'restalking that you like to work
and remember, if you are abusiness owner, that you have a
quiet stalker to.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
It's true, it's very true.
I feel like my entire clientbase is like made up of quiet
stalkers.
Like whenever they sign up towork with me, I'm like where
have you been?
And they're like I've beenhanging out with you for two
years, you just didn't know.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, I have people in my group programs being like
nobody liked my post and I'mlike I never heard of you until
you joined this program.
Have you ever liked a singlething that I've ever posted?
They're like huh.
No, it's like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
It goes both ways, friends.
It goes both ways, it's animportant reminder.
Yeah, but before we jump in, Ijust want to share with folks
that you and I are doing apodcast trade is kind of how I
think of it.
So I am over on the BusinessWitch podcast.
She's over here.
(01:36):
So if you love Kara, go hangout with her on the Business
Witch podcast.
And you know, just for fun, doyou start with the one that I
was on, the episode that I'm on.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I love that.
I appreciate you saying that.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, oh my gosh, so many things that I want to talk
about with you, but one of thelike big pieces that I've been
personally kind of likegrappling with and I'd love to
learn from you, because I seeyou doing this so differently
than I do is how can we embodythe impact that we want to have?
(02:21):
Another, that is, in promotingsmall businesses, in talking
about capitalism, in, you know,talking about some of the
political things that arehappening in our sphere of
advocating for, you know,communities that we feel really
aligned with.
How can we clarify where Iguess where we want to make our
(02:45):
impact and how muchresponsibility as business
owners we have in sort ofdriving those conversations
forward?
And, yeah, I'm kind of curious,maybe just giving people a
framework of any of yourthoughts and philosophies and
values around that and why youchoose to make decisions in the
ways that you make decisions,because I really admire the way
(03:06):
that you show up in this sphere.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Thank you.
I really appreciate that and Idefinitely want to say that that
was cultivated over time, so itwasn't something that I had an
easy answer for when I started,and I think probably a lot of
people can relate to this.
There's many ways in which Ihave stumbled clumsily through
that process, but where I'vearrived now and you know, want
(03:29):
to shout out teachers that havehelped me get to that space,
very specifically Trudy Lebron,who has been my coach for the
last couple of months and who'sthe author of the anti-racist
business book.
But just really immersingmyself in a different kind of
coaching philosophy over thelast couple of years has helped
(03:50):
that, and so I want to name thatfirst, because I think finding
teachers who you really alignwith can be so tremendous for
making that process easier, tohave a frame of reference that
feels value aligned for you.
And then the second thing interms of a framework.
You know I said value alignedand the easiest way to make
decisions about anything youever want to do in your business
or your life is from a valuesbased perspective, and Trudy has
(04:13):
a values exercise in theanti-racist business book, and
then Rachel Cargill in her bookA Renaissance of Our Own talks
about personal values, and Ithink it's okay that if your
business and your personalvalues are different and that's
where people get stuck sometimesthey think they have to be the
same thing and they don't.
Maybe for some of you they are.
(04:35):
And that's the other thing, too, that I'm not putting a moral
imperative on other people tohave the same values that I have
.
I want to partner andcollaborate and coach with
people who are value aligned.
But alignment is not the samething as a synonym.
It doesn't mean that we havethe same values.
So those two resources I justmentioned provide you exercises
(04:56):
for clarifying your personal andyour business values.
And where I start in mysignature program, which is my
lowest tier offer, and we'rerenaming it, so by the time this
comes out right now it's calledBusiness Switch.
I'm ideating a fun new namebecause really the root of that
program is teaching serviceproviders how to build the
framework for a value alignedbusiness.
(05:17):
It's not actually super witchy,so I was like we have a
branding issue, I'm going toswap that out, but title TBD.
But we start with values andthe thing that values really do
for you is they are an arrow andthey are an anchor, so they
tell you where to go and theyalso make you feel safe in the
decisions that you make.
And so, in cultivating my ownpersonal business values, which
(05:39):
are slightly different fromvalues I might have in romantic
partnership or friendship orcommunity, I am very clear on
how I want to show up, based onwhatever issue it is that we're
talking about.
So my business values areintegrity, authenticity,
(05:59):
accountability, and I'mforgetting the last one right
now it's been a day I have fouror four of them oh, sovereignty.
And so for me, what feels mostin integrity is to be authentic.
That's why authenticity andintegrity they kind of go
together for me.
But what feels most inintegrity is to act in a way
that is congruent with myself.
(06:20):
So it might not be in integritybased on somebody else's
definition of integrity, andthat's an important distinction
that I've had to learn inchoosing to be vocal about
issues that I care about.
But for me personally, in orderto be in integrity with myself,
to feel morally congruent withmy own thoughts, actions, what I
stand for, how I show up inspaces, being honest about my
(06:42):
opinions and making statementswhen I feel, so called, is in
alignment with my values If thatis a sign to somebody else that
they're no longer a good fitfor my community, I lovingly
release you.
I hope you find somebody who'sin alignment with your values.
Another thing about thataccountability has been such a
(07:03):
hugely important component ofthat.
I am a cisgendered white woman.
I coach people from alldifferent walks of life.
I can't guarantee safe spacesbecause there have been many
times in my own coaching thatI've been blind to my privilege.
So part of having anaccountability practice and
position as a value framework islike I can't tell you that I'm
(07:25):
not going to mess up, but I cantell you that we're going to
have an accountabilityconversation for that.
Now, what I mean when I say thatis accountability to my own
integrity and my values and myclients, not to people on the
internet who want to drop randomthings in my DMs and expect me
to be accountable to them.
That's not an integrity, that'snot an authentic choice for me.
(07:47):
So essentially, I've just laidout for you how those values
which are core to me help meknow exactly what I should do in
a situation if somebody isasking for a refund, if somebody
has negative feedback.
If I did this last week, I'mlike teetering a little bit of
overwork right now and I'mgetting a little grainy, a
(08:10):
little irritable crunchy becauseof it.
I said something in a way thatI did not intend, and my values
indicated exactly how to takecare of that situation, even if
inside I'm like I would preferto avoid and pretend that that
had never happened.
That would be operating out ofalignment with my values, and
the thing that I love aboutchoosing these things is you
(08:31):
build a much stronger businessmodel from them, because you're
making decisions that are rootedin what you believe in and not
necessarily how you feel, basedon something being hard or scary
.
And when we make businessdecisions rooted in how we feel,
we don't make the strongestdecisions.
So your values are going to bedifferent than mine, and if one
of your values is privacy forexample, my partner one of his
(08:53):
values is privacy.
He is an artist in a particularindustry where it wouldn't make
a lot of sense for activism tobe a part of his work, but as a
personal value, it's reallyimportant to him, and so
protecting his privacy and ourrelationship is not part of his
work, whereas I'm talking abouthow polyamory and business are
(09:16):
related all the time on myplatform, because authenticity
is my value, like that's a veryclear example of how those
things can look really differentand still be aligned for people
.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
There's several things that Iwant to like circle back around
to, but something that feelsreally, really important to just
like highlight and like neonsign emblazoned is your personal
values do not have to be thesame as your business values,
and I feel like that's wherepeople get like real crunchy and
(09:48):
sticky and feel a lot of.
I'm thinking back to like likeclients who have had this
struggle and it's like guilt andshame.
Guilt and shame, guilt andshame come up and then that
makes it so that it's easy forsomebody to come into their DMs
(10:10):
and say, hey, why aren't yousaying this about X, y and Z,
whatever the issue is, and itleaves them vulnerable to acting
out of integrity with theirvalues, acting from a place of
dysregulation, acting from aplace where they feel perhaps
pressured to move faster or takean action before they're ready
(10:33):
to or if they're ready to, andso I think that that is
something that like, like for me.
It's you know, four years intobusiness for you.
I don't know how long you'vebeen doing this, but like, like
that has come with experienceand time, of being like anchored
and rooted in in my own valuesand being like no, actually,
(10:55):
that would be out of integrityfor me to speak about, I think
in particular I'm thinking of,like, this most recent conflict
with Palestine and Israel, and,while I have a very, very strong
personal stance on what's goingon over there, I'm just gonna
pause so that the siren can goby.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, sorry, I was like it's okay.
Where is the mute?
I was trying to mute myself.
Please continue.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
You know.
So like, even though I have avery strong sort of personal
value and belief system aroundthat conflict, I don't feel like
I am educated enough or reallyunderstand the like nuances of
that situation enough to liketeach about it, and I really
think about my platform as beinga teaching platform and so,
(11:45):
like, I'm never going to teachlike to me.
Like that's where the integritypiece I think that you and I
sort of tie in is like, for meto be an integrity with my work,
I have to know that this issomething that I know I can
teach about.
For me to be able to speakabout it, you know versus.
You know if there was some sortof like conflict happening that
(12:07):
involved, you know, theAsian-American diaspora, or you
know if something god forbidhappened in Korea.
Like that is something that Iknow, that I can speak on and
teach about, because that comesfrom my own personal lived
experience and I know a lotabout that.
Versus what's happening in theMiddle East is not something
(12:28):
that I fully understand, and somy integrity my personal and
business integrity is to sitback and learn from people who
this is their work.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, there are a few things I want to say that I
feel like are gonna be like.
I don't know why.
I feel like they're gonna becontroversial.
Maybe they're not, maybethey're not at all, but I just
think that there's an obsceneamount of pressure that people
put on the people they follow onthe internet and then also that
people put on themselves to berepresented like you have to be
(13:01):
perfect to show up in thesespaces.
We don't put that up well, weput it on our politicians, but
it just seemed to matter, and wedon't necessarily put it on
businesses in a super meaningfulway.
Like being a small businessowner is an incredibly
vulnerable and courageous act.
Like to opt out of dominantculture and say I'm gonna build
(13:23):
a life for myself and constructsomething that's gonna support
me takes a tremendous amount ofwork, and to presume that
anybody who's doing that shouldbe an expert on how to do it
perfectly and in total moralcongruence with your own
personal opinions about how theyshould act is insane.
But it's like how we show up onthe internet.
There's a social media cultureof like they said something that
(13:46):
I didn't like and like now Idon't like them and I try to be
really careful with that,because I'm just as guilty of
doing things like that as otherpeople are.
You know, I I think about thisanytime.
Like me and my friends are shittalking a celebrity, I'm like I
don't know anything about themand we're having a completely
super flouist conversationrooted in absolutely nothing.
And like people are talkingabout me in some kind of a way
(14:11):
because there are enough peopleout there who know who I am and
who project on to you or me oranybody that they see on the
internet the person you went tohigh school with, who you still
follow your ex-boyfriend's newpartner like you're just
projecting these judgments thatlike aren't made in anything.
And then, as a small businessowner, I was listening to the
(14:31):
Financial Feminist podcast,which is one of my faves.
Really love Dream podcast guest.
I'm like manifesting that I'mclaiming it here, but I was
listening to that podcast andone of her guests, madeline
Pendleton, who wrote a bookcalled I survived capitalism,
and all I got is this lamet-shirt.
She was talking about how ourcountry does not provide
(14:52):
universal basic income, healthcare, child care, like all of
these things that are kind offundamental human rights, and
then the onus gets put on thesmall business owner like we're
the American Dream, apparently.
Apparently we've accomplishedwhat is supposed to be the
American dream.
But like, if my assistant needneeded paid maternal leave,
knock on wood.
(15:12):
Or family medical leave,whatever it is, knock on wood.
I couldn't afford to pay herher salary and hire a new person
because I'm a small businessowner with limited resources.
But we look at our Instagramlike the, the, the quiet
stalkers out there who arewatching what we're doing and be
like oh, maybe one day I canhave a business like cat, maybe
(15:34):
one day I can have a businesslike Kara.
And then they say somethingthat isn't in congruence with
your own personal beliefs andall of a sudden they're trash
and we have to be really carefulthat we're looking at people
that way and in total honestyand total transparency.
My own journey in business inthe last two years has been one
(15:55):
of the like, to me fundamentallymore difficult than when I
started.
When I started, I had a kind ofderanged sense of confidence
that I was gonna be a reallyreally great, really really fast
, and I think that's why Iachieved results very quickly.
But I was very much bought intoa lot of coaching communities
that, in my opinion, now, beingoutside of those communities,
(16:16):
operate from within a kind of ML.
Me like skeevy manifest yourway to a million dollar year,
even if it means predatorilyselling to people who you put
into a financially precarioussituations in order for them to
pay you.
I was like coaching in thosespaces.
And as I began to divest andreally think more critically and
(16:39):
have my own journey ofemotional maturity as a business
owner, I was angry and I waslike this whole community is
trash.
I like hate everything that Ilearned.
And now, with a little bit ofdistance and a little bit of
healing and a little bit ofrecalibration to what, how I
want to show up and how I wantmy values to be reflected in my
business I'm able to look atthat and be like, well, it's not
(17:01):
all bad, like there are thingsthat you really benefit.
You built multi six-figurebusiness because you learned in
those spaces.
And then I love what Kellydeals says about this.
She's like we're all in thewater, we're all wet, so we're
all deconstructing harmfulthings that we've picked up,
whether it's messages about howthin we should be or how our
(17:23):
relationship should look or howwe should feel about money or
self-confidence or whatever itis.
We're deconstructing thosethings all the time.
That's a lifelong journey.
And then when we look at otherpeople who are on their own
version of that and say, well,they're a terrible person
because they didn't show up theway that I think a person with
that kind of platform should beshowing up in a moment like this
(17:43):
, I would like to say to themshut the fuck up.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
I love it, I I also just want to like name the like
necessary grace that we need tohave in order to like pull
ourselves out of these systems,you know, and the sacred anger
that is also necessary in thosespaces.
(18:11):
And so, like, what I'm hearingin your story is like, hey, like
you started to become moreaware and you started to see,
you know, hey, that's really nothow I want to run my business.
That feels a particular way inmy body that doesn't seem to
align with these particularvalues that I've set up for
myself.
And in order to like exit thosesituations, I think the anger
(18:37):
is necessary oh yeah, I was mad.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, I'm still a little bit mad, I'll be honest.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I'm so mad.
Yeah, fair.
But I think that, like, as westart to like exit those
situations, it's also importantto like take a pause in the way
that you just beautifully didright now, which is like, hey,
it wasn't all bad.
You know, I, as you werespeaking, I was just like sort
(19:04):
of like overlaying myrelationship with my ex-husband
over on top of it, where it waslike, in order to get out of
that relationship, I needed to alike find that sacred rage that
was within me and then likemove to, like get myself out of
that situation.
And now I can look back and say, hey, it's been several years
(19:24):
since I've been in thatrelationship.
It wasn't all bad, right, like,but the nuance comes with
regulation, and so I think thatwhat I'm seeing a lot in the
world right now when it comes tothis, like us versus them, like
the judgment of you have to dothis a particular way, or you
(19:45):
know you have a big platform, sowhy aren't you posting in this
particular way is like this,like culture around
co-dissregulation.
That seems to be sort of likesweeping through these like
social media spaces in a waythat is like sort of touted as
like this is how you find yourpeople when it's really like
(20:09):
what you're doing is you'recontinuing to perpetuate cycles
of dysregulation.
When you're doing that versusone of your values I want to go
back to a sovereignty is whenyou're able to say, hey, this is
how I feel, this is my lane,these are my boundaries, these
are my values, and you'reallowed to have your own
thoughts, feelings and opinionsand your own values and your own
(20:29):
perspectives.
And can we still see each otheras human beings and can we
still learn from each other?
And is there space forcuriosity and understanding and
perhaps even just like anopening up of your own
perspective in ways that like isactually like really regulatory
(20:49):
?
Go ahead, you had you openedyour mouth yeah, I mean there's,
there's.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
My brain goes in five different directions.
I'm like, should I say this?
Should I say this?
Because there's so many thingsthat I think of when you're
saying this.
But actually what I was feelingcalled to speak about was to
bring it into the conversationabout what's happening with Gaza
and Israel.
So, like I am Jewish, I'mfirst-generation American.
My family was decimated in theHolocaust.
(21:19):
My grandfather was one of 11 tosurvive.
My grandmother was one of twoout of nine who survived.
My family fled during theCommunist Revolution in 1956, in
the middle of the night with mynine-year-old father to
Brooklyn, and I was raisedlooking at photos of my family
(21:40):
with little Jewish stars ontheir shirts.
When I was 19, I went on abirthright trip and I was in a
closeted queer relationship atthe time, which Israel is gay
friendly, we can give it thatbut my personal feeling of shame
that I was having about that atthat time was such that I
(22:01):
didn't make any friends on thebirthright trip because I was
afraid of being judged.
So, very opposite of howeverybody is, you wouldn't have
recognized me.
I was like super quiet, likesuper reclusive, like it felt
like nobody liked me, eventhough it wasn't anything
anybody had did.
It was like a totally internalexperience, but there was
something that was happening,because I decided to separate
(22:24):
myself from the group that I wasable to look more critically at
what was going on and I was 19,I didn't understand it, but I
was like something about thisfeels very weird.
And then, when everythinghappened a few months ago, I
started to revisit why I feltlike it was weird, and you and I
talked on my podcast about afeeling of dissonance in your
(22:46):
body and what I was made awareof was how I had experienced,
like a nationalist brainwashingevent that like I didn't have
that language for at that time.
So, like, when you arrive onbirthright I promise I'm getting
somewhere with this that islike relevant to what it was we
were saying.
But no, I want to hear this.
(23:07):
When you arrive on birthright,they hold signs that say welcome
home when you get into theairport, and I remember being
really confused by that, bybeing I'm like, I'm Hungarian,
like what do you mean?
And then essentially saying,like this is your land, and it's
kind of like okay, when Jewsare asking right now, or
(23:29):
Zionists, I should say, areasking right now, like do you
think Israel has a right toexist?
I'm like, do you think theUnited States has a right to
exist?
To like imagine ChristopherColumbus like holding a sign for
all of the Europeans who, likelanded in the North America,
that was like welcome home.
It's literally the same thing.
And I like thought back tohaving had that experience and I
(23:51):
was like, oh, I didn't resonatewith it because, like they were
sharing a theory with me thatis is colonization and something
about it felt off.
I didn't have the language forthat, but it was just, and so I
felt really called to speakabout that because it was
relevant to my personalexperience exactly differently,
(24:14):
differently.
And this is where, like, theaccountability piece comes in.
When BLM happened in 2020, Ibecame very radicalized in a
particular way, where I was likeshoving do the me and white
supremacy workbook down thethroat of every white person
(24:35):
that I knew, kind of like to thepoint that my mother was like
you need to, like I'll take abreath.
Actually, I'm like you need todo it right now.
And she's like I'm gonna.
I'm not gonna do it right now,but you need to do it right now
or you're a bad person, right,and like I can look back on that
experience now and be like thatwas my own fragility and my own
(24:55):
saviorism, because I felt badabout like myself, about how I
didn't know those things.
So when I was like beingintroduced to those concepts, I
had a sense of urgency that, inorder to make myself feel better
, I made my myself responsiblefor like making sure every other
white person that I knew wasdoing that.
Yeah, and so I think likethat's why I mean why we're all
(25:17):
in the water and we're all wet.
Those are two very differentexamples of ways in which you
know major historic events thathave radicalized a lot of people
to activism in a new way, likethe responses that I had to that
.
I'm not saying that like theone that I had about Israel is
necessarily even right.
What I'm saying is like both ofthose responses were really
born out of like a hugeemotional and impactful moment
(25:40):
where I wanted to do what I canto feel in congruence with
myself and that doesn't meanthat I made 100% of a perfect
choice and while everybody elsesimultaneously is experiencing
an ongoing collective traumathat is making most of us
depressed to expect people toknow perfectly how to show up
(26:01):
when there's no frame ofreference for that, because our
times are continuallyunprecedented and I shared my
own personal experience ofancestral trauma and
relationship to that.
So people are alsosimultaneously experiencing that
and maybe haven't had theprivilege of having space,
health for them to like reallyunpack what that means.
(26:21):
The way that we act with eachother is.
There's so much stuff.
It's an iceberg.
I think we talked abouticebergs on my podcast, I can't
remember.
It's an iceberg where you'renot seeing that story that I
just told you about, like all ofthose other things, and people
are arguing and they'reprojecting their own iceberg
onto the other person and whenit comes to, like your personal
(26:44):
versus your business values.
My business exists because Ithink that small business owners
can impact policy change and wecan impact shifting the wealth
gap and we can impact who getsfunding for political campaigns
and we can impact the culture ofhow we do business.
I'm genuinely only interestedin business coaching because of
(27:05):
its relationship to socialadvocacy, so to remove that
component of that interest frommy business, my business would
be like less interesting to mepersonally.
For other people they might bein this because they feel some
kind of soul calling to themethodology that they teach and
being an activist is somethingthey want to do in their
personal time.
We all need you right now.
(27:26):
Like I do have a kind of moralimperative about there, like we
need to be staying informed, we?
I don't want to make anystatements about voting because
I think we're gonna have likethe biggest third party.
I'll pause again.
There's another another guycoming on through.
Sorry, I live next to a firestation.
No, it all makes sense.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I'm in a city.
I get interrupted for snow, youget interrupted for sirens.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yes, Okay, I think we're good.
I do think we're gonna have areally surprising election with,
like third party turnout and alot of people opting out of
voting because they don't feellike they like the options, but
like completely opting out ofthe conversation.
It would be to deny ouressential interconnectedness and
(28:15):
how we're all on this dyingrock together that we need to
make collectively less hot.
So, like personally, I thinkthere's a moral imperative about
being engaged.
But to expect a small businessowner to make political
statements because they are asmall business owner, versus to
understand why their businessexists and operated an integrity
(28:35):
for them and then conductthemselves as a citizen and
integrity for them.
It's really expecting somethingfrom people that a lot of
people haven't expected.
From Taylor Swift, for example,like she could be being more
politically active.
My opinion.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, I think the contrast of those two stories
feels like thank you so much forsharing them.
And like the thing that Ireally just want to like
highlight there is the level ofintegration and regulation that
you have to come to in order tohold your own boundaries around
(29:14):
this kind of space.
And, you know, I think that ifwe all take a moment to take a
breath and try to act in waysthat is responsive versus
reactive, I think that we would,all you know, perhaps have a
little bit more wisdom to drawfrom, because our bodies are
(29:38):
going to tell us things are.
You know, our values are goingto tell us things.
We're going to act in ways thatfeel more in alignment with,
with what it is that we trulyfeel.
And you know, I think that whenyou are talking about this, it's
like I love the boundaries thatyou have when it comes to this,
(30:04):
because, you know, when you'relike saying hey, like one of the
most important things aboutrunning a business or helping
small businesses is because Iknow that you know this moves
the collective forward and ithelps shift the dynamics and it
helps with like wealth,distribute, distribution and all
(30:25):
that stuff, and it's like, yeah, that can be true for you and
it could be not true forsomebody else and, like you,
there's a lot of permission anda lot of space for people to be
able to make those choices forthemselves, and that's something
that I really, reallyappreciate about how you are are
moving the conversation forward, because it's like, even though
(30:45):
that's true for you, it doesn'thave to mean the same thing for
somebody else.
You know.
And for me when I, when I thinkabout it, it's not necessarily
that I want to do like activism,work around like small
businesses, it's more of hey.
Like I know that I, as a smallbusiness owner, make different
choices around buying things,and then you know, the CEO of
(31:10):
Target, right, and so I wantthere to be more money in the
hands of people like me becausewe're going to be more aligned
with sustainability.
We're going to be more alignedwith, like you know, making sure
that, like people are paidfairly.
I have like a huge push towards, you know, homesteading and
(31:30):
growing our own food and makingsure that the clothing that we
wear is ethical.
And so, like I want more peoplelike me to have more money
because, like you know, ascliche as it is, like we do vote
with our dollars.
You know whether you vote inthe political sphere or not.
Like we do vote with ourdollars and I feel like that's
such an important piece that,like that doesn't get talked
(31:54):
about enough.
And like, if I can help someonefeel more regulated in their
system, so they they like theblocks and the challenges that
come up around business likehave an opportunity to melt away
.
Like I'm going to do everythingthat I can in order to help
them move through that, becauseI see the bigger picture of like
(32:14):
, hey, like.
I want 50, 500, 5000, 50,000small business owners to have,
you know, more spending power,because the world's gonna look
really different once we havethat spending power.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Exactly.
And another thing I heard onthat financial feminist podcast
is that poverty is a policydecision, and so when we see
issues like the housing pricesare so astronomical that people
who are making the averageAmerican salary can't afford to
own a home, that's not happeningin a vacuum.
It's happening because ofpolicy decisions.
(32:49):
And one of the things that Italk about on my platform so
much is that entrepreneurship tome is a form of liberation,
because you're essentiallysaying like you can't cap how
much money I can make, you can'tcap how I earn money.
Like you can't tell me how I'mgoing to conduct myself or my
business practices.
What you think is professionaland you meaning dominant culture
(33:10):
, like isn't personally resonantfor me.
Like I'm gonna live my life inthe way that I want to live my
life and I'm gonna thrive, notin spite of capitalism, but
completely, completely separatefrom, not its influence.
Like we're obviously influencedby this context that we live
(33:31):
within, but it's not in spite ofanything, it's like for
everything.
It's not like anti, it'sbecause I want to create what is
aligned for me, and then myhope is that in my work, I help
other people do that, and Ithink that that is really needed
right now, like the idea thatthe American small business
(33:52):
owner is the American dream is.
It's not reality, because mostpeople can't afford to buy homes
in the United States and mostpeople that I know, like in my
community that I coach, theyfeel like they have to be
married to jobs that they don'tlike in order to be financially
secure.
That's not happening in avacuum.
That's a policy decision.
(34:13):
That's the way that our economyhas been structured.
We perpetuate these ideas oflike go into student debt and
you'll get a job, and then yougo into student debt and you get
a job that you can't afford toown property from.
We teach calculus, but we don'tteach people how to save for
retirement.
I like it's insane to me likepeople put money into their 401k
(34:37):
but they don't know that theyneed to invest it, and then like
they get to retirement and theydon't have enough money to live
off of because we didn't teachfinancial literacy.
But like you had to go tocalculus class, right.
So the other thing that I thinkabout entrepreneurship is it
actually really invites you toget very real about the
circumstances so that you canbuild your own, and I think that
(34:59):
that's so empowering becausewhen you look at the reality of
what you're capable of and like,what you actually want, versus
what dominant culture has toldyou you should want, or is the
path to get that, whichoftentimes for most people
doesn't even work anyway, Ithink it's actually safer to be
an entrepreneur than it is towork at a job that you don't
(35:22):
like, because you know what'sgoing on, because you have to
and you have agency and nobodycan fire you except yourself.
So I see it as a way ofbreaking free of a lot of these
social imperatives and economicconstructs and creating
something that empowers you tolive the life that you want to
(35:43):
live and that is, in many ways,more real than what we thought
we were going to be able to have, based on these stories that we
were told.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I definitely agree with that.
And you know, like, now thatI've done this entrepreneurship
work for so long, I think to methe thing that I've found so
liberating is being able to justreclaim, like, who I am, like I
don't have to hide my tattoos,I don't have to hide the fact
(36:14):
that I had, you know, I've beenpolyamorous in my life.
I don't have to hide the factthat I'm queer, like, like there
are so many things that again,as you say, like the dominant
culture still, even in theUnited States, is maybe in a
more subtle way now, but isstill pretty discriminant
(36:35):
towards, towards like I can sayfuck and like no one's going to
like say anything about it, youknow.
And versus, like when I workedin the medical industry, it was
like you got to keep your youknow arms covered and it's still
a very like conservative way ofquote, unquote, looking
professional.
(36:56):
And it's like now that I'm outof this like box, like you can't
stick me back in you know, andI think that the folks that I've
coached that sticking pointwhere you're sticking your head
out of the box and you're beinglike is it really okay, Am I
allowed to do this?
(37:17):
That feels like the mostvulnerable moment where it's
like okay, so this is a jump outof the box moment, or go back
in the box.
And if we can hold more peopleto be the most vibrant and
bright and expressive andauthentic versions of themselves
and I'm recognizing that I'musing very expansive language,
(37:44):
like very young language part ofthat is also like maybe you,
the most authentic version ofyou, is quiet and deep, like has
these deep roots that go down,like whatever it is, that is the
most authentic version ofyourself.
Like, if we can encouragepeople to feel safe in those
(38:04):
moments where they'retentatively taking those first
steps, I think that, again, ifwe're looking at sort of like
the individual steps that havethese like big culture and
collective shifting moments, Ithink that that's one of them
and it's something that I thinkyou and I both like seek to do
(38:25):
for our clients is like, hey,that validation that you didn't
get when you were a little kid,like I'm here to be your
cheerleader when it comes to youexpressing yourself.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
What this is making me think of is, like the
metaphors that people havealready to know this in their
own lives.
Like all my friends are gay.
So is that a song?
All my friends are gay?
I don't know.
Anyway, all my friends are gay.
And like I'm thinking about, youknow them before they came out
versus after of like the oh myGod, what are people going to
(38:59):
think?
Are people going to be upset?
Is this something to be ashamedof?
Now there's vibrant communityand radical self expression and
actually being in therelationships that are right for
them, that make them happy, andso I think that, like you know,
when you were talking aboutusing expansive language, what I
was thinking about is, likethis story of this is the thing
(39:20):
that's supposed to make youhappy.
For 99% of us, it does it.
And so when you actually dowhat makes you happy, you know I
had a six figure job when I was26 that I was so depressed.
I had Sunday scaries everysingle Saturday because I was
like, oh my God, it's almostSunday and then I have to go do
that job again and I was like isthis my life?
(39:43):
Like I was very depressedliving in that model, and I've
been depressed trying to justconform myself to other people's
ideals, and so I understand.
For some people, their versionof that is not going to be to be
a business owner.
It's going to be on a team,working within a company that
they actually feel mission,aligned with or respected as an
(40:04):
employee at, or being in arelationship where they really
feel seen and validated and cancontribute to their community.
And like it's going to be yourown version of that and finding.
You know, we talked about thison my podcast, too, when you
were talking about reallyfinding what your purpose is and
aligning with that, which isthe same thing as figuring out
your values and living a lifethat's rooted in your values.
(40:26):
And what I will say, justbecause I think it's important,
like to tie it to one insomething that I really like
teaching about and to somethingI think that our audiences share
is like, okay, but what do I dowith that?
When it comes to making moneyand the way in which I feel
about it being bad to make moneyor evil to make money or bad to
(40:52):
charge for my services, likeI'm sure some people listen to
this or like if I was rooted inmy truth, I would live on a
commune where we traded all ofour seeds for all of our eggs or
whatever, and we don't live inthat system.
And I just want to encouragepeople and this is like really
the tip of this conversationthis could be an entire second
(41:14):
episode but like I just want toencourage people that if you opt
out of participating in thisculture, instead of trying to
shift it through being selfempowered, self directed and
having self agency, the systemgets to just continue to exist.
So nobody is being helped byyou not charging for your
(41:34):
services and by you saying likeI don't want to participate in
looking at the money in theworld and I think that's part of
it.
If anything, I think that thatactually gives money way too
much power.
A lot of coaches teach thatmoney is energy and I
fundamentally disagree with that.
Money is a theoretical conceptmade up that we've all opted
into, agree that we believe init like is mostly on a screen.
(41:56):
It's not real.
Your energy is what controlsyour relationship with money and
how you wield and use it inyour own business.
And so when we aren'tfetishizing it and what I mean
by that is selling really reallyhigh, bespoke quality services
because we want to make a lot ofmoney, so we only work with
(42:17):
like people who can pay us ourhigh rates and full or
fetishizing it by means of likeI'm not going to charge because
that's bad and that's wrong andI shouldn't do that.
And like we should all be likegive me a dozen eggs and I'll
give you a coaching session orwhatever.
Like that is also fetishizingmoney.
And so both ends of thatspectrum give money so much
(42:38):
power and give this like largerconstruct and this larger system
so much power.
As opposed to, I'm going to usemoney as a tool.
Like money is a tool.
Freedom is a goal, having abusiness that has a larger
impacts, that I'm well resourcedenough to be able to provide
sliding skill services to peoplewith need and donate some of my
(42:58):
time into my community.
Money is the goal thatfacilitates that.
Just like social media may notbe something that you love, but
it's a marketing tool that is agoal that gets like, or a tool
that gets your, your word, outto your community.
You may not like love writingemails, but people need to know
what it is that you're selling.
So all of these things aretools and don't over emphasize
(43:22):
the power that they have andthen feel limited by them,
because it's really diminishingthe impact that you can have in
your business and it's alsoprobably helping to reinforce
some of the very things thatyou're trying to deconstruct.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, thank you for saying that, because I think you
know it's something that Ifundamentally agree with too is
like I don't think about moneyas being an energy I definitely
like road that way for a whileand just ended up blaming myself
when I didn't have enough moneyor like it ends up becoming
like yet another sort of victimcycle.
I think that when we startlooking at some of these things,
(44:02):
like you said, like socialmedia, newsletters, money as
tools, we then start thinkingabout, well, what is that really
helping me build, and so like.
When I look at social media,I'm like that is a tool for me
to build relationships.
You know, and I can use socialmedia, I can use the newsletter,
I can use flyers at, like, mylocal coffee shop, like whatever
(44:25):
it is like.
As long as we have this likeidea of like, okay, the goal is
to build relationships and youget to choose how you want to do
that.
You know, and you know, when Ithink about money as being a
tool, it's my tool, for freedomis how I think about it, because
it's like, once I have money,it allows me to have the freedom
(44:50):
to choose who I want to spendmy day with, however long I want
to spend that, you know, timedoing that with that person.
And so, if I can sort ofdeconstruct this idea that, like
, money is energy and you know,it comes in like a river and it
flows out like, like, like.
No, it is a tool and it helpsme have in define a relationship
(45:17):
around freedom that helps melive the most authentic version
of my life, and so then, youknow, it feels like a cleaner
way to also participate withincapitalism, because then it's,
you know, it's no longer this,this esoteric thing that I just
(45:37):
need more and more and more andmore and more of like.
There is a certain amount oflike enoughness that's going to
come when there's satiation, andI think that is one of the
problems with capitalism.
Is this constant drive to alwayshave more and more and more
versus being able to like sitback and be like hey, did I
actually accomplish the goalthat I really wanted to
(46:00):
accomplish, which is, like Ihave the freedom to sit on my
land and have a conversation aslong as I want with Kara, you
know, sweet, do I have thefreedom to be able to say yes to
only the clients that I reallywant to work with?
Then yes, you know.
And so when we pull out thelike energy within these social
(46:26):
constructs and we just are ableto sort of like look at them as
like neutral things you know,social media is a tool,
newsletters are a tool, money isa tool then we get to define
how we want to relate to thatthing and how we want to use it.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
What I wanted to say when you were saying like money
is an energy is like if moneywere energy, it's been largely
attracted to colonizing whitesupremacy for the majority of
human history.
Like money can't be like.
It would be a weird energy tobe connected to because
(47:03):
historically it's beenmonopolized and controlled by
oppressors.
And so the way that I invitepeople to think about the energy
, if they want to commune withmoney energetically, is the
energy of abundance, and so manyof us, whether we're well
resourced financially or not,feel abundant in some area in
our lives.
Maybe it's like having anamazing sandwich for lunch, or
(47:26):
like having really good friends,or like the abundance of love
that you feel with your pet,like there's an area in your
life where you're alreadyactually able to feel like what
it feels to be abundant and togo on a healing journey where
you can apply that energy ofabundance to financial security,
which, just like our values aregoing to look different, are
(47:49):
what financial security meansfor us is going to look
different.
I live in LA.
You need $1.5 million to buy ashithole in LA and I'm not even
I'm not even being likeemphaticious about that.
It's literally like go onZillow and like look at what
they're selling something thatis a two bedroom next to the
(48:13):
highway that has like noplumbing in it for $1.5 million
in LA.
So like, if you want to be aproperty owner in LA, you're
going to have a differentfinancial goal than if you have
four kids and you live inMinnesota and $1.5 million can
buy you four mansions.
But you also need to save forcollege tuition.
Some people who work with methey're trying to replace their
(48:35):
annual salary.
Some people who work with mewant to have a seven figure
business.
Your money goals are your moneygoals.
Your values are your values.
Like let's build you what youwant and be in celebration of
that.
Because we all want to livedifferent lives, but we all want
to live lives of meaning, wherewe feel safe and we feel like
we can make a meaningfulcontribution to society.
(48:59):
Like that's what my peopleshare and the path to get there
is going to look different andthe healing journey to get there
is going to look different.
And to presume that money is anenergy, particularly for my
clients who have differentexperiences of privilege where,
like, we all have money traumabut, like, for some of us,
healing our money trauma is avery different journey than for
(49:20):
the other ones of us, and totreat it as if there's like some
kind of blanket mindset workwhere you can think your way out
of having it is unethical androoted in a lot of these social
constructs that we've beentalking about dismantling this
entire episode.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Yeah, I think one of the things that I really just
want to like it this is going tobe like my life's work, I feel
like is like thinking about thehealing journey as being this
cookie cutter experience that,like, if I just go through these
10 steps, then I will somehowget to this like healing place,
(50:01):
and I feel like that's how a lotof the money is energy
conversations revolve around isthere's a lot of mindset,
there's a lot of mantras and,you know, when you get to the
end of the 10 steps and somehowyour relationship to money
hasn't healed, I find that a lotof people end up blaming
themselves.
(50:21):
And then, when we sort of buyinto this concept around, like
money being energy, then I feellike it starts to play a lot
with the like manifestation.
You just have to, you know,believe yourself to your goals.
When, like, we need I don'tknow I don't have like a set,
(50:46):
like sort of manifesto ofbusiness values, necessarily but
I feel like sovereignty wouldbe such a huge one, because I
find that, like when people feelsafe and that journey of safety
can look so, so different.
And this is where I feel like,you know, the the cookie cutter
things don't work.
(51:06):
Once you feel safe, people comeup with the most beautiful,
beautiful solutions to theirproblems you know, and and.
So I think that ultimately, aspractitioners, what we all need
to be doing whether you're inmoney coaching or business
(51:30):
coaching or relationshipcoaching or whatever it's really
about safety being the medicine, because when safety is the
medicine and you center safety,then people are able to find the
sovereignty in their own livesto make those decisions and find
those solutions for themselves.
And to me, that's like wherethe the magical things happen,
(51:56):
because, like then, I can pullmyself out of the equation and
they don't have to be reliant onme for the rest of their lives.
You know, I never want to be ina situation where now I've now
created this like codependentrelationship with a client and
they're looking to me to be therescuer of all their things, and
and and I think that that comesfrom really being able to
(52:18):
center safety and help peoplewith whatever toolkit you've got
, like everyone's got adifferent toolkit yeah help
people really feel safe.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
I also think creativity is really hard to
have when you feel unsafe.
Yeah, it's just like you needspaciousness and safety to
access creativity.
And I really appreciate whatyou said about like creating
that codependence, like the sortof like MLME, like put it on a
(52:51):
credit card kind of coachingspaces that I was like I don't
actually think that I want to doit this way anymore.
It felt very much like youalways need to have a coach.
You should always have a coachif you're a coach and my
business has made so much moneyoff of reenrollments and I'm a
Cancer Moon I do not like sayinggoodbye to clients.
I like love the people that Iwork with and I always get kind
(53:13):
of like oh my god, I'm not gonnalike know what's going on with
them.
But what I found from workingin a one-on-one capacity for
such a long time is that thereactually is a point where I feel
like I've set somebody upreally well to know what they
need to know, to like build asystem and a structure, and
(53:34):
usually what I do in those casesis for clients who've been
long-term clients I've startedto sell, like downsell
consulting packages to so likewe can touch base if they have a
problem, like they can come askfor support.
But the idea that you shouldalways be outsourcing or gut
checking your decision makingwith a practitioner is one of
(53:54):
those theories that I wasactually like.
I don't think that this ispersonally resonant, because I
was in my as the client.
I was in my own coachingrelationship where I was like
every single time before I everdid anything, I was going to
somebody else to ask if it wasright.
That's a really interesting wayto be the CEO of your own
(54:16):
business, and what it actuallyturned into was me taking advice
that was completely out ofalignment for my own values.
I acted out of integrity withwhat I felt was the right
decision to make, because mypractitioner was so adamant that
she was right and it ended verybadly.
(54:36):
It's one of the things that Imost deeply regret ever having
done in my entire career.
I was able to like apologize,take accountability, have a nice
exchange with the person thatwas impacted by it, and I'm not
even blaming that practitioner,because it was my decision to
act out of my own consciousnessand take her advice.
(54:58):
But it really awoke to me likeI've decided that you're right
over what I know to be true formyself, which is where
sovereignty is so important andwhy I'm like hey, I like I feel
like I want to be posting aboutPalestine all the time, but like
that might not be the way thatyou want to show up.
I'm not like I'm not hey, youshould really be doing that like
(55:19):
no, that's not.
That's not how you coach peopleto be the way that you are.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yeah and I think that when you center safety, you
also center self-trust, you know, and so one of the things that
I always have with my one-on-oneclients who graduate out of
their packages is, like, hey,I'm always going to be here, you
know.
Like it's almost like knowingthat your parents got your back,
(55:43):
no matter what, but like youmight be the one who has to call
them up just to say, like hey,I need help, you know, but it
doesn't mean that, like you know, you'll never, ever, ever need
to coach again.
It just means that, like, Ithink that you have enough tools
within your toolkit to be ableto make a lot of these decisions
solidly, and if you need athought partner on this, like
(56:05):
I'm here, you know.
And so I think that you know.
That is one of the things thatfelt really cringe to me about a
lot of the MLM type coachingstuff that I was seeing, and I
actually have a very, very likepared down Instagram now,
because I just got kind of sickof seeing that as being the only
(56:26):
business model Is this idea oflike you always need to have a
coach.
Like no, like sometimes youmove on from relationships
because you got what you neededfrom that relationship and
you've grown and like thank youvery much and sweet Like, can we
still stay in touch?
Because, you know, I genuinelylike Cancer Moon as well.
(56:49):
I genuinely just like love,knowing how people are, you know
.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Yeah, for sure, and I think there are ways in which,
like I am a consultant for acouple of companies where it's
like I help them build theinfrastructure and then they can
touch base as they need to andlike I love that, I love having
long relationships with people.
But there's also something tobe said for knowing what you
specialize in, and I really feelstrongly that I specialize in
(57:19):
helping people build a systemand then scale said system.
But if you're like managingthat system, what is my role
besides you gut checking whatyou already think is right by
contacting me, and so somethingthat's changed a lot in my
business in the last year islike I love working with people
for two-ish years and then Ifeel like we probably did the
(57:44):
thing.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
Yeah, I have one more question and then I'm just
trying to be mindful of timehere.
But we've talked so much about,you know, activism in whatever
form it takes.
But how can we take action assmall business owners if we want
(58:09):
to be in a bigger arena when itcomes to specifically like
small business activism?
Speaker 2 (58:15):
So there's a great, actually an organization called
Small Business Majority that aclient of mine referred me to
and I sit on the board for theCalifornia Council and they have
a council based on what yourstate is, and they go to
Washington to speak on behalfand represent small business
owners as they are impacted bypolicy decisions.
And even if you just get ontheir email list like, they will
(58:37):
say, like are you somebodywho's been a victim of like
predatory lending for gettingfinancing for your business?
Like, we would love to talk toyou.
I had a client who went toWashington on behalf of Small
Business Majority to talk abouthow some of the child care laws
that were going into place wouldimpact small business owners
who are mothers.
So that's a really like easyway to engage with small
(59:01):
business owners and reallyunderstand, especially based on
your state, how policies areimpacting you in particular.
Now I want to make adistinction just from an
industry perspective.
Like, you and I operate more inthe online world and we're
service providers, and a lot ofthe people in Small Business
(59:22):
Majority are like product-basedbusiness owners or they own
actual brick and mortars in thestate that they live in.
So it was really cool for me tojoin that community because it
wasn't the way in which I hadcome into being my own business
owner, which was much more likea location independent.
You can be a digital nomad Ihave clients in New Zealand and
(59:43):
Canada and the UK and all thethings but I think, in terms of
activism, it's a great place toconnect to and, even if you just
sign up for their emails, Ithink that's a great place to
get started.
I've already talked aboutTreaties Book.
I think everybody needs to readTreaties Book, the anti-racist
business book.
(01:00:04):
It will give you a valuesexercise.
It will also talk about howbusiness is really, really
personal.
It's the opposite of that adage.
Business isn't personal.
It's so, so, deeply personaland I think anybody listening to
this knows that already becauseit was really personal.
To put your face on a platformand be like, hey, buy a thing
(01:00:24):
for me, like it stirred up a lotof stuff for you probably.
So recommend that book so muchand it'll give you like whether
or not you choose to be anactivist, whereby you're using
your public business platform tospeak about causes that you
care about.
If you are a service providerwho's working with people who
have different backgrounds fromyou.
You have a professional and apersonal responsibility to
(01:00:47):
understand what it looks like totake accountability when you
mess up because you're blind toyour privilege.
To understand what it lookslike to, as best as you can,
create safety for a diversepopulation.
To understand socialresponsibility as a business
owner.
I think that that book does areally good job of outlining how
to do that, and then obviouslyit's like a continued lifetime
practice.
(01:01:08):
So those are some places to getstarted.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Yeah, I love it.
And I also just want to nametoo that like your activism can
look very personal to you.
So, like you know, my nervoussystem goes when you talk about
going to Washington and likerepresenting small businesses.
But when it comes to like thesmaller scale stuff, when it
(01:01:31):
comes to I believe very stronglyin local government and the
impact that individuals can havelike on the local level, like
that feels really juicy andnourishing to me, you know.
And so like I think that whenwe're talking about activism, if
we can like we sort of likeunpacked and dismantled, like,
(01:01:52):
hey, activism has to look like aparticular way, like even in
this arena, the scale of it canlook anywhere, from you
impacting individuals in like aone-on-one relationship all the
way up to like bigger.
You know political arenas, andnone of it is wrong as long as
it is an alignment with whatyour values are and what you
(01:02:16):
feel an alignment with and whatyou feel like your particular
lane is.
So I just feel like that feelsimportant to name there too.
Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Yeah, and I mean, how can we dictate for other people
?
How should they should beshowing up like nobody?
It should be.
That's why when people try todo that in my DM's, I just
ignore them Same.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
I mean, to be fair, I've had like really really good
discussions, particularly aboutIsrael and Palestine, or like,
yeah, israel and Palestine, whensomebody comes to me with like
genuine curiosity, you know, andit's easy to like find that
tone and and it's like, yeah,like let's have an expansive
(01:03:04):
conversation about this, like Imight need to learn something
and you know, you might need tounderstand why I've made certain
decisions.
But, like you know, anytime wego into any space dictating or
trying to convince somebody todo something that we feel like
it should be done our way and wethink we know better, I I don't
(01:03:27):
ever see that going well.
Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
So quit it?
Yeah, can I?
Can I say one thing about thatactually, just because I feel
like it's very relevant.
What I've learned in going onthis journey of being like I
don't want to participate in thecoaching industry in this
particular way is that, in orderto build trust with people who
have either been harmed by thatmodel or who were already
(01:03:50):
suspicious of it, because theyfelt like it wasn't right for
them, that to go in full-onattacking it creates a
dissonance where people are notable to understand how what I do
might be different for them orfeel safe enough to be
vulnerable enough to trust me tolisten to what it is that I
have to say in the first place.
And so what I've learned onthis journey in that particular
(01:04:11):
realm that I think is alsoapplicable to activism, is like
anytime you go into aconversation and you're like
you're wrong and here's why, orlike this is bad and here's why,
like people freeze up and theycan't meet you.
So it's what you said aboutsomebody approaching you with
curiosity and being tender andlike genuinely wanting to know
(01:04:32):
where you're being witnessedwithout being judged.
It creates this kind ofspaciousness, and I really had
to apply that as a businessmodel as, instead of, you know,
being like I was harmed in thisparticular way and like it was
bad, I try to be like have youever noticed this thing?
That happens like here's abigger cultural trend that I've
witnessed within the industry.
(01:04:53):
Have you been impacted by that?
And then people are able to seethemselves in that without
feeling like they're beingnecessarily targeted, and
there's like a more opendialogue.
That gets to happen.
And anytime that we're going in, you know all systems go fire
and brimstone burning and liketear it down, like you're gonna
lose most of the people whoprobably care about what it was
(01:05:16):
that you had to say yeah if youweren't approaching it that way
yeah, and you might even losepeople that were on your side to
begin with.
Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
You know, that's that's where I felt my
resistance going up is like, hey, like I'm on the same side as
you.
Like, can we just chill?
You know, and you know, one ofthe things that I always talk to
people about is, if you onlysee two options, that means that
your nervous system is in asympathetic state.
(01:05:47):
It means that you are in afull-on fight or flight mode,
and so, instead of moving andactivating in that space, like
taking the time to look for yourtools to self-regulate, to
co-regulate with other people,to find folks that are willing
to do that work of like tryingto understand where you're
(01:06:09):
coming from, so that you can seethat nuance before you take an
action.
I feel like is such animportant thing, and and it's
it's one of my own sort offilters in terms of like, do I
say something or do I not saysomething is like, if I only see
two options and one is good andone is bad, then this is not a
(01:06:30):
time for me to say something.
It's actually a time for me to,like do a little bit of deeper
digging personally.
Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
I love that.
That's a great tool for peopleyeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Well, my dear, I would love to just invite you to
share how people can find you.
What are you sharing out in theworld right now?
And, yeah, I'd love for mycommunity to go poke over into
your world thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
You can find me at Caracobaxcom.
We're at Caracobax coaching onInstagram.
I'm sure the correct spellingof that will be in the show
notes, but it is here with a C.
My podcast is called businesswhich, and I have a signature
program that we launch everyJanuary, may and September that
teaches you how to build theframework for an ethics service,
(01:07:21):
an ethical, service-basedbusiness, and I love it.
You get coached for me twice aweek for the 12th of a price of
one-on-one coaching with all thetools, tips and tricks to build
a service service.
I'm gonna take up from the topand we're gonna edit it.
You can get all the tools, tipsand tricks to build a
(01:07:43):
service-based business in a waythat is ethical, aligns with
your values, can be profitablewith sliding scale, has an
intersectional feminist praxisfor how you sell and how you
serve, and so, if you're like,damn, that sounds like what I've
been looking for.
Our next launch is May of 2024and you can head over and
subscribe to my email list to bethe first to find out about it
(01:08:06):
sweet.
Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Well, thank you for joining me here today and I hope
people go over and check thatout and, at the very minimum, go
check out her podcast.
I really enjoy your podcast andI was really excited to be a
guest on your podcast, so thankyou oh, thank you so much, it's
been great yeah.
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