139. Unmasking the Constellation of Autism with Creativity Coach Sarah Cook

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, my friends, Welcome to the Rooted Business
Podcast.
I have a repeat guest with metoday, Sarah Cook.
She's a creativity coach.
She has been on this podcast abajillion times already and I
want to have her back on for abajillion more times, so thank
you so much for being here.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Sarah, yeah, thanks for having me.
I love that we can't keep trackof how many times we've sat
down to do this.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, but today's conversation is something that
is incredibly alive and near anddear to your heart at this very
moment and, if I can just becompletely honest, I really just
wanted to like capture thejuiciness of this moment,
because there's something aboutlike the same way that you can't

(00:53):
fully like go back to like newlove energy, and you can't go
back to like the new beginningenergy.
um, I feel like that's whereyou're at right now and I really
just wanted to sort of likecapture it for, for lack of a
better way of just saying that,um, because yeah, I'll just,

(01:16):
I'll let you uh, lead into theum, the background story, and
then I'll set up just a coupleof things that I want to hold as
intentions for thisconversation.
So go ahead, take it away.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, that sounds great.
Goodness, Well, the the shortversion is um.
This past winter, uh, as a 36year old adult woman, I received
my autism diagnosis.
Um, and I think that that, likejuiciness that you so perfectly
described, is also part of whatI just want to be really frank

(01:51):
from the start makes me reallynervous about having this
conversation there.
There's so much there's so muchimmediate liberation.
I mean the levels of selfclarityclarity that I've
experienced just in the threeshort months of holding this are
mind-blowing.
Just wild amounts ofself-clarity, a greater sense of

(02:16):
my authenticity as a person, somany things suddenly making
sense about me.
There's a lot of good thingsand I have 36 years of
experience of identifying not asan autistic person and now like
one short season of identifyingin this more truthful way.
So it also feels like a strangething to be talking about,
because I'm still learning aboutit and I'm still running into

(02:40):
my own internalized weird blocksaround what counts, what
disability does and doesn't looklike, especially for me, just
the ways that my autism has beenso masked, which is so common
in women and people of color.

(03:01):
There's a lot of talk right nowabout that because historically
we think of autism as this thingthat we associate with young
white boys who are obsessed withdinosaurs or whatever.
Right, there's like these very,very specific ways that we
expect it to look, and it looksdifferent in different bodies
and especially for women who arealready being conditioned in

(03:23):
certain ways to mask and toaccommodate and to camouflage
and to compensate, and so it's,yeah, it's, it's sort of a
bigger deal in terms of thelandscape, of thinking about
disability and what gets seenand what doesn't get seen.
A big quick summary.
A big quick summary, yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
And in terms of the intentions of this conversation.
I really want to hold theintention of how can we advocate
for and how can we supportpeople who have these sort of
like unseen disabilities as youspeak of.
And then I've, before youshared with me.
I've been thinking about, hey,like if I am noticing something
in a client as a coach or as amentor, and I am seeing this
pattern that may potentially be,you know, cptsd or ADHD or

(04:27):
autism or whatever you know,pick, pick your flavor of the
DSM-5, you know what is myresponsibility as a coach and a
mentor to support that person.
How can I support that person?
And you know, I think that youknow your introduction into this

(04:50):
already feels reallycelebratory and I also just want
to name that that's not alwaysthe case for people.
And so how do we navigate thosewaters with as much
understanding and nuance?
And, um, the word sovereigntykeeps coming to mind as, like,
you and I have a conversationabout this, um, and so you know,

(05:14):
these are big, big questions.
I don't expect us to like comeup with any sort of like
definitive, like handbook onwhat to do, but I think that
even just having theconversation and framing it in
this way and really sort oftalking about something that I
think that people are you know,I've most of my clients are

(05:38):
coaches and like, there's alwaysthis feeling of like I don't
want to do any more harm into myspace because they're already
coming in with, you know,overactive nervous systems and
all this trauma and all thestory and so like, like that,
that rule of like first do noharm, and how do we delicately

(05:59):
play within those like moral andsocietal and cultural and
individual structures?
Um, I think is like, I feellike that's all.
That's a lot to try to cover ina conversation but, I trust us
and I trust, uh, you know, um,just the way that we flow is,

(06:22):
yeah, that I'm really excited tojust learn more about.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I'm equally energized andintimidated by everything you
just said, Because, yeah, thatfeeling of like how do we avoid
re-traumatization, how do wealso be good stewards and good
observers and be attentive ofour clients which I think is

(06:47):
like really what this businessof coaching is and holding that
space, and I mean I just I comeback again and again to like
we're never going to go wrongwith a trauma-informed
perspective, right, Because thatis a perspective that sets us
up to be, I think, both deeplyand compassionately curious

(07:10):
about our clients, but alsoalways from this perspective of
knowing what we're seeing isjust a part of what's there.
So, I think, always remembering,which is not to discount that
we might be seeing things thatare indicating that there's
something there, discount thatwe might be seeing things that
are indicating that there'ssomething there, but always
remembering that we're even withpeople, we're really close with
right, that we know on intimatelevels we're never seeing the

(07:33):
full picture, and so rememberingthat I think there's something
about that that I think is soimportant as coaches, especially
when there's this other I seethis other messaging often in
the coaching space that ifyou're a good coach, you tell it
like it is and you sort of likeyou don't beat around the bush

(07:56):
and I always I mean, I guess tojust say what I mean bluntly
like I'm not convinced that youcan be a trauma-informed
practitioner if you subscribe tothat belief, because that
belief depends on you assumingthat you're seeing everything
and that you can be reallyconfident about another person's
experience.
You know it's just like so weneed all of this, like more

(08:20):
spaciousness and that's not ofthis.
Like more spaciousness andthat's not.
It's not in competition withour authority.
You know it's.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
It's yeah, it's about the kind of space we hold for
people yeah which leads me toask you if you feel comfortable
sharing, because I was so movedby how your therapist approached
this conversation um and Ithink in your newsletter the way
that you phrased it was just sobeautiful and I'm going to

(08:50):
butcher it, but it was somethingalong the lines of like she
asked with curiosity instead ofauthority.
So I really just want to likeflesh that out because I think
that.
Want to like flesh that outbecause I I think that I guess I

(09:14):
can only speak to my ownexperience of of um, my brother,
having gone through, like themental health and institution
world back in the that wouldhave been early 2000s and seeing
a very, very, very differentculture and dynamic, um, I think
that you you hit the the nailon the head with those two words
of authority versus curiosityand yeah, I'd love to hear that

(09:38):
story, just so people can havecontext for even just like
stepping into the, the diagnosis, and and how that can be a
stewardship process as well forany therapists who are listening
out there.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I'm really happy
to speak to this transparentlyand I just you know, maybe I
want to start by saying I'vebeen in and out of therapy my
whole life.
My youngest experiences with itwere because of some trauma
that had happened.
When I was young, I wasactually mandated to be in
therapy, so from the start I hadan impression of it that was

(10:15):
not consensual, right, that wasfrustrating, that was limiting,
that was like against my will.
I can still kind of rememberthe first therapist I ever
worked with I was 13.
And it was not not positive.
And then I ended uptransitioning to a new one and I
ended up working with someonewho I really liked and who did
help me at that time.

(10:36):
And then, to be honest, I don'treally remember how it ended.
But as I became an adult, I'vebeen, as I became an adult, I've
been in and out of therapy andhave kind of seen a pattern
repeat which is for a long time,starting when I was very young.

(10:56):
I have always thought I had OCD.
I have reasons for thinkingthat it's also in my family, but
this thing would happen and ithappened again and again.
Multiple times I would go to atherapist because my concerns
and my symptoms and the thingsthat I was struggling with had
built up and I would go to atherapist and we'd talk and very
, very quickly the person wouldtell me I don't think you have

(11:17):
OCD.
And there was always thisflavor of them thinking I was,
seeming to think I was doingbetter than I was telling them I
was Right.
I think this is where we startto get into some of that really
yucky, sticky territory of like,well, I seem high functioning,

(11:38):
quote unquote which really justmeans like I can participate in
heteronormative culture andcapitalism.
Well enough to seem like I'mokay, right, like I mean, really
that's what that means.
Right, like my needs are moreinternal and less immediately
visible perhaps than otherpeople with OCD that they've

(11:58):
talked to.
So you know, they would sort oftell me I think you're fine.
So they would sort of tell meoh, I think you're fine, in a
matter of words, and it wouldjust be really clear that
whether I saw them for a fewsessions or maybe a few months,
it just wasn't going anywhere.
So then I'd stop seeing themfor a while, I'd continue on

(12:18):
with my life and then thepattern would repeat.
So I attempted to find atherapist.
Multiple times throughout myadult life, including last year.
I had a different therapist Iwas working with before my
current one and I just keptcoming back because the only
framework that I had was ah,something's going on with me.

(12:42):
I think it's OCD, right?
I kept bringing that same thingto my therapist and that's just
how they responded to me withjust looking at that one thing,
my current therapist, when Ibrought that to her, she did
also say pretty early on I'm notseeing things that are looking

(13:06):
like OCD.
I'm not hearing you describethings that sound like OCD to me
, but why don't we be curiousabout what is going on?
That was the first thing beforeautism was even on the table was
just someone who was willing tosee.
Oh, this person thinks they areexperiencing something that is
really hard and that is ongoing,and I don't think it's what

(13:29):
they think they're experiencing.
But that still means there'ssomething happening.
Right, there was stillsomething happening, and the
fact that it took so manytherapists for someone to just
be willing to see that even ifmy framework for it or my
assumed diagnosis for it waswrong, it's like she was able to

(13:49):
see over that and just wantedto be more curious.
I had never had a therapist beso curious about me before.
I cannot tell you how much of agift that was, how good it felt
to have someone be genuinelycurious and to care more about

(14:12):
what I think I'm experiencing,whether I'm right or wrong about
what it is.
That's just like the firstthing and I want like that.
That piece is so huge right andI want like that.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
that piece is so huge , right, I think the first thing
I would just want to likehighlight in this um is by
having curiosity instead ofdismissing your potential story,
like to me, like the mindset ofthat therapist is already in a
different place than the othertherapist that you had

(14:50):
experienced.
Because you know, I think thisis the old, outdated way of
looking at patterns like autismand ADHD and, you know, ocd even
, and things like that, where,because it is off of the norm,
that means that it is somethingthat is wrong and something that

(15:10):
is diseased and something thatneeds to be fixed, versus the
way that your therapistapproached it is.
This isn't something that iswrong.
Let's get curious about it, youknow, and already that feels
like such a big exhale and I andI think that if we can sort of

(15:32):
just like you know, frame that,I just I really wish that we can
move towards a society that ismore about accepting
biodiversity in all thebeautiful different forms,

(15:53):
instead of that is differentfrom the norm and, like you were
saying, like I'm highfunctioning, whatever the fuck
that means.
It's like whatever the fuckthat means.
You know, it's like um, I canfit into capitalism, I can, you
know, flow through theseheteronormative states and it's
like, yeah, and like there's alayer of, I think, learned

(16:20):
helplessness.
I see so much in myneurodivergent clients and this
like freedom that comes as soonas you like, can take a breath
together and say like, hey, thisactually isn't something that's
wrong with you.
It's like beautiful and uniqueand wonderful about you and I

(16:45):
wish that there were, you know,more expressions of biodiversity
.
Or like, rather, like peoplefelt more comfortable expressing
their biodiversity, because Ithink the biodiversity it's just
not fully.
We don't feel safe enough toexpress it.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
And you know, one thing that'scoming up for me right now that
I want to try to put intolanguage, although it feels
really tricky for me and I knowthis is not how everybody
experiences receiving adiagnosis, and I don't I don't

(17:24):
yet completely know why I'veexperienced it so positively, or
you know, other than it's justit's given me clarity, it's
given me structure.
There's also maybe somethingthat speaks to my autistic brain
about like I, I really benefitfrom certain kinds of structures
and frameworks and clarity, andso it's almost like it feels

(17:47):
like it's part of my autism toalso like want to know I am
autistic and to like have thatand to know right.
It's like there's somethinglike oh yeah, that kind of makes
sense about what I need.
But one really interesting thingthat has happened is there are
things about me, about mycharacter, about my experiences,

(18:08):
about my feelings, that I thinkI have been reading as trauma
and undoubtedly like let me beclear, I do also have CPTSD.
I do also have trauma, some ofwhich is processed, much of
which I have realized is stillnot.
So that is also happening,right, there are multiple things
going on here, but I have foryears been looking at needs,

(18:35):
right, these neutral thingsabout me and reading them as
trauma responses that I need towork through.
That's a really damaging way tobe engaging with myself.
Right To be seeing things thatare just a part of who I am and
are, at minimum, neutral andideally maybe kind of nice

(18:58):
things about me or just waysthat I am, ways that I am in
this world, or just part, youknow, ways that I am, ways that
I am in this world, and to beonly reading them through the
lens of trauma has really done anumber to my sense of self,
right, and to also how Iinteract with others.
So there's also something.
I mean, all of this is sotangled and messy and I feel

(19:19):
like there are places where, youknow, it's a bigger
conversation to talk aboutneurodivergence and trauma in
general, and they often go handin hand because we live in a
neurotypical world, right.
So people who are neurodivergentare also already going to be
more likely to experience trauma, right?
These things go hand in handand a lot of it is messy and

(19:41):
root bound and I think is reallyhard to distinguish.
And then there are some caseswhere it's it is and is going to
continue being really importantto me to distinguish between
the two, because it's aboutreclaiming if anybody has like
40 plus hours, beautiful,beautiful writer and researcher

(20:30):
and he many years ago, I thinkalmost a decade ago, he put up
his entire like lecture serieson the Yale YouTube website and
one of the things he he reallytalks about is we really I'm
gonna just like, I'm gonna tryto simplify this as much as I
can but, like, this wholeconcept of like free will that
we think about may not beexactly what we think free will

(20:55):
is like.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
There's a deterministic way of looking at
the world, which is not entirelytrue, and there's a completely
like free will way of looking atthe world, which is also not
entirely true, and there's acompletely like free will way of
looking at the world, which isalso not completely true, and
there's like a combinationsomewhere in the middle that is
more or less true for humans,and what I'm hearing in your
story is like the things thatyou thought were, you know, um

(21:20):
more flexible are actually thepieces of you that are, like,
more structured.
And so then, in that framework,we can accept the parts of you
that are more structured andreally examine the, our trauma
responses at like almost a levelof discernment instead of
everything is a trauma responseyou know, we can now start being

(21:45):
like, oh like, with discernment.
Can I look at this particularcharacter trait of mine, or this
particular way I do things, orthis particular need of mine and
really, if that's just who I amversus, that is coming from a
traumatized response, and Ithink that there's, um, you know
, robert Sapolsky frames itwithin the context of, like you

(22:09):
know, genetics versusepigenetics and, you know,
really understanding thedifference between someone's DNA
versus, like, the environmentthat they grew up in.
But I feel like it's all thesame stuff that we're talking
about here is like stuff that isrigid.
Yes, and that rigidity doesn'tmean that it's bad.

(22:29):
It just means that that is likea part of the makeup of who you
are, and so, in the context ofthat, can we accept and then
carry on with our lives.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And and you know, one of thethings this won't surprise you
like one of the things that I'vebeen sort of re-evaluating in
light of this diagnosis is myexperiences in academia, which I
already knew had been bad andhad been hard.
But now the clarity of like, ohyeah, the ways you're supposed
to be in that space, the waysthat you demonstrate and perform
intellect and broad sweepingthinking and being able to
conjure thoughts right away andabout lots of different subjects
, and if I think about some ofthe ways that my mind, part of

(23:29):
that rigidity I'm coming torealize, is also part of why I
need a lot of time.
And I don't always haveimmediate thoughts or I don't
always have immediate.
Some of my best questions andideas are going to show up like
two days later or two monthslater, whatever right.
Like not in the same timeframe,in a divergent timeframe, and

(23:52):
so I don't know, somehow whatyou just said got me thinking
about this too, like how wedemonstrate our intelligence and
how we, how we are expected to,and how there's not.
You know, it's like so many ofthe ways that I thought I was
supposed to show that I'm areally smart intellectual person

(24:16):
kept me at odds with some ofthe needs I had in order to get
to the spaces where my bestthinking happens, you know, and
so anytime I would run into thatrigidity or find myself, you
know, wanting to stay in maybe arepetitive space with something
.
It's like I would, I would, Iwas always prepared to read that

(24:38):
as a flaw you know whether evenbefore knowing that it it's or
not.
You know I was.
I was ready to compare myimpulses against these like
neurotypical practices andexpectations.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
You know about this, and it's not just you and your
diagnosis.
What I'm loving about just this,like I want to call it a bit of
a movement around peopleaccepting, um is that, instead
of making ourselves wrong, whichyou know we've all done for

(25:20):
however many years, you know, um, we are now looking at society
and being like, hey, likethere's some stuff in here that
we need to, we need to shift,you know, in in the face of
character traits being the morerigid pieces.
That means that culture has tochange, instead of it being the

(25:44):
other way around.
You know, and I really lovethis, I don't know, it feels
like another iteration of a yinyang cycle where we're sort of
like switching the yin and theyang roles here, where you know
where the culture was young.

(26:05):
Now we get to allow people tobe young from that space.
Like, what sort of creativeways can culture change from
that space?
Is is a bit of what I'm hearingyeah, and it's, and there is.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
There is this sort of movement happening right and a
lot and books and writing andthinkers and all this talk about
neurodivergence and it is soexciting and it's so much.
It is so much more than justthese things aren't wrong, but
it's also oh, by the way, someof these practices like if we
can think about them aspractices like neurodivergent
practices actually can make alot more space for more depthful

(26:43):
thinking or for more intimaterelationships with people, or
you know, it's, it's, there'sactually.
It's not just about um,tolerating the thing, but
recognizing that, likeneurodivergency often points us
toward like different kinds ofwisdom and possibility, there's

(27:03):
actually like something foreverybody to benefit from, from
paying attention to these otherways of being and thinking.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
If we can circle back to yourdiagnosis story for a moment, I
think one of the things that Iwas so moved about your
interaction with your therapistis her ability to like call,

(27:38):
name the pattern, and I thinkthat I'm just trying to think of
, like, how do I say this inEnglish?
What is the thing I'm trying tosay?
It's so hard to talk about thisstuff, right?

Speaker 2 (27:51):
It's really hard to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
So I'm, I'm remembering a analogy that Dr
Romani I don't remember her lastname, but she is a
psychotherapist who does a lotof work with narcissism and you
know, I think that one of thethings that she was pointing out

(28:15):
is that, like, this concept ofnarcissism has become such a
like a catchy phrase, like youknow just phrase, like you know
just, it's a part of this socialvocabulary and, um, and it
seems like it's just like morein you know culture's eye right
now, um, and she names theimportance of calling a thing

(28:41):
exactly what it is, and what Imean by that, that is, she
shares an analogy where she'slike, you know, if I said, hey,
I'm going to bake you a cake,and showed up at your house with
an egg, that's not actually acake, right?
Like, baking a cake is likethere's a bunch of different
ingredients in it there's eggs,there's sugar, there's flour,

(29:02):
there's, you know, baking soda,and then you do this thing and
you know, and then, voila,there's a cake and she's like
like we need to be reallycareful when it comes to
diagnoses, where we're not justlike cherry picking a character
trait or like one side of thatlist

(29:23):
of things that shows up in thedsm and then labeling that as
narcissism.
It's like, yeah, ex-boyfriendmight be selfish, but that
doesn't necessarily mean thatthey're narcissistic.
And you know, I think that thatis the beautiful nuance that
your therapist brought in is,instead of being like like
throwing the baby out the bathwater, it was more of like okay.

(29:46):
So you're telling me that youare a cake.
Let's figure out what flavor ofcake you are.
So yeah that's such animportant skill to have.
Um yeah, we, we asked to holdus.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, I mean, you know, and I I'm realizing too,
like I I hate, I hate that thewhat my therapist has offered me
and the way that we're that sheis helping me look at mental
health, mental illness, whichautism is not mental illness,
but looking at, like mentalhealth in general, the full

(30:25):
scope of it.
Right, I hate that.
It's radical, right, I hatethat, like, the things that
she's offering me and theperspectives we're using are so
radical.
We have talked about in one ofour sessions that mental health
is this spectrum and we couldsit and look through the DSM and

(30:46):
find qualities of mostdiagnoses that we relate to.
Right, we all have thesedifferent facets of ourselves,
these different parts.
It's not like some of us areall good and then some of us are
not.
It's like we're all all thethings you can think of it as,
like with astrology.
It's like my sun and moon arein Taurus, I'm very Taurus, but

(31:08):
I have all the signs in me,right, I have all the aspects.
It's like all of these thingsare spectrums, which is such an
important word, right, autism,we know, is a spectrum.
One word I've been thinking alot lately is social
psychologist Devin Price, who isthe amazing author of the book
unmasking autism, which has beenjust like a Bible for me

(31:30):
through this process.
It's been such an importantbook to read.
But he describes it.
He actually talks about how aspectrum is maybe the wrong word
because it makes this soundlike it's still a linear thing,
when it's actually aconstellation.
It's like this intersecting ofall of these things, and so I
think also that's what I hearyou talking about, that's what I

(31:53):
think is I think we're talkingabout it when we're talking
about trauma-informed care, whenwe're talking about context.
Right, it's like recognizingthat we're all these little
constellations and we are theway we are for so many complex
reasons, and to really want toshow compassion to each other,
which is also to understand eachother, it involves needing to

(32:18):
be willing to understand a lotof context.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, I think, just putting myself into the shoes of
of some of our listeners here,and and also, just, you know, a
space that I'm really trying tolike understand and be mindful
of and be as ethical as possiblein this realm, is the overlap

(32:48):
between the roles of a coach anda therapist are becoming a lot
more overlaid these days, and Isee very, very clear boundaries
here, and I think it's importantto name those boundaries
Because as coaches, we are nottrained to diagnose.

(33:11):
That is not, you know, part ofour scope, and I think it's
really important to know thatthat is not part of our scope
Because there's so manyconversations about mental and
emotional health.
These days, people are lookingfor ways in which they can find

(33:31):
support, and that's not alwayswith a therapist, and so to me,
as a coach, it's so important toname that, hey, the place where
I do not touch the likedefinite line in the sand is
where a diagnosis is actuallyneeded and would be helpful for

(33:55):
that person and for that client,and that's something that I'm
currently learning, currentlytrying to figure out.
Certainly, you know, like, likeyou and I have worked together.
You were my client for a longtime and and then now you've
moved on to therapy and so I Ireally want to sort of explore

(34:17):
that space where, as your coach,I certainly was thinking CPTSD
as a possibility.
That doesn't surprise me.
Your stories, autism is notsomething that I was thinking of
, but as soon as you said it, itmade sense and because I want

(34:43):
to be the best possible coachslash mentor that I can be, you
know, I'm curious if there'sanything that, like, I could
have done differently before youmet your therapist.
That would have felt reallysupportive.
So yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
I mean, I think exactly how you supported me,
did help me get to therapy.
I mean, just to talk aboutsomething like really personal,
like you and I talked about, uh,my Babadook, right, this like
this relationship I have with acertain part of me and my

(35:24):
nervousness, and I won't getinto too much detail, but that
Babadook has now shown up intherapy.
Right, you did sort of, I think, by being again trauma informed
and holding the right space forme, you allowed things to
surface, both that surfaced inreal time between you and I, and

(35:46):
also just things that gotshaken up, that are now
surfacing in therapy and thathad nothing to do with you being
able to know or not know orspot or diagnose.
It had to do with you beingcurious and open.
Right, and I'm actuallyrealizing it does come back to
those two words that I wroteabout with my diagnosis and that

(36:09):
you're picking up on.
It's the distinction betweenauthority and curiosity, I think
so often, especially forcoaches and maybe for any person
who is in a role where there isthis inherent power, dynamic
and part of what you're offering, we have this sense that it
depends on our skills and ourexpertise, and so we can assume

(36:29):
that means.
I think that's what's driving acoach when they're saying I'm a
good coach and I tell it like itis.
There's this sense of wantingto be like my authority is
concrete and it's valuable andthat's why you're paying me and
you're going to get a thing thatyou don't have.
But often what I need, morethan a thing that I don't have,

(36:50):
is a certain kind of space and acertain kind of enthusiasm from
someone right, someone who'senthusiastic about me and
curious about me and can hold aspace that I can really enter a
little bit more fully.
And that's where I think we canmaybe release ourselves from
feeling like we need to be ableto spot the thing.

(37:10):
It's more about listening andbeing curious.
I think that's what will bring.
Invite the things.
It doesn't matter if we knowwhat they are or not, you know
what they are or not, you know.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's something that like I
I mean maybe I should get thistattooed on my body somewhere,
but like I really think of, likesafety is the medicine, you
know it doesn't, matter whatkind of tool or technique that
you're using.
Um, you know, you could be areiki practitioner, you can be
an acupuncturist, you could be amassage therapist, a somatic
healer, like.
There's so many fuckingdifferent flavors of tools out
there.

(37:49):
I don't really know at all whatI do, because it's like a
mishmash toolbox of things thatI've picked up along the way.
But I think that when we ascoaches and as mentors and as
therapists can point our compasstowards safety Like people,
come up with all sorts offucking creative solutions you

(38:12):
know, and like the reason whythey're not able to think their
way or feel their way through aparticular challenge or block is
because they feel on some levelthere's some sort of threat
happening you know, it happenedwith me this morning.
I'm working with a dear friendof mine who is a horse trainer
and um, coco, I love him topieces and he's got some

(38:36):
behavioral things that, as hegets older, are gonna actually
be dangerous for me.
Um, it's into my space and hedoesn't really respect my
boundaries and, like you know,the list of how he, how close he
wants to be to me, isuncomfortable to me.
And so she noticed like hey,how's your body right now?
And that gave me a sense ofbeing able to be like oh,

(39:01):
actually he's coming to look forme in my space because my body,
like my spirit, has left mybody already, because I feel so
threatened by his presence umthen it was like okay.
so her question was like how doyou want to get back in your
body?
And so it's like okay, likegive me a moment and I'm going
to breathe into it and anchorand root out, because I know how
to do that and you know, itgave me an opportunity to find

(39:25):
my own sense of safety and Ithink that that's really what a
good coach or, you know, serviceprovider does is like hey, like
can you create a safe enoughspace that people can find their
own sovereignty and agency andmake their choices, enough space
that people can find their ownsovereignty and agency and make
their choices?
And that's really what I'mhearing in your story with your

(39:49):
therapist and I'm really gladthat I got to be people on that
journey for you.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
But, like, I think we like I'm glad you're bringing
this word safety into theconversation and I'm just
thinking about how, like, oh,there's nothing for me.
You know and I say this as aperson who's very neurodivergent
, possibly also has a mentalillness, I don't know yet right,

(40:24):
there's my, my therapist and Iare getting clearer on the other
details.
Now that we have this baseframework right, there's like,
and there's trauma we'reprocessing and all these things
right.
So I'm, I'm a, I'm a complexand unique person, but from my
experience, there's like nothingthat feels safer and nicer to
me than somebody who is not justwilling to look over at my

(40:48):
reality but is willing to likeenter my reality with me.
And years ago this was earlieron in my social work trajectory
and he was someone who had somedelusions about himself, some

(41:10):
pretty severe delusions thatwere objectively not true.
Among other things, he wasconvinced that he had had a
child who had passed away andthis had not happened.
But it was a thing he carried.
That was true.
And I remember seeing a lot ofservice providers really

(41:32):
sometimes getting quitefrustrated and really struggling
with him about that becauseit's like, dude, this didn't
happen.
It didn't matter that it didn'thappen.
He was walking around with thisreality that he had experienced,
that.
He felt grief, he feltfrustration, he felt all the
things that might accompany suchan experience and if I wanted
to, even for a moment, try tomeet him where he was at like,

(41:52):
you can't get there throughthrough this thing of but I'm
right, this didn't happen.
Like being right or wrong stopsmattering.
It's about like what is thatperson's experience of
themselves that has to mattermore than like what is right or
wrong?
Right, as a space holder.
It's like when we're talkingabout meeting the person where

(42:15):
they're at, that has to be, yeah, being willing to sort of like
greet that person where theirreality is, even if you feel an
edge between your experience ofreality and theirs.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
There's something about being willing to go to
that space, yeah my heart isbreaking a little bit right now
because, um you know, I had sortof like alluded to the fact
that my brother went throughlike the mental health system at
a young age he was probably, Iwant to say 13 ish, um, when he

(42:59):
first, like he went throughmultiple rounds of suicide
attempts.
He went through bouts ofdepression and one of the things
that came up for him, one ofthe stories that he was holding
onto, is he said that my mompulled him out of the car once

(43:21):
and broke his arm, pulled himout of the car once and broke
his arm, and I remember at thattime, you know my the therapist
who was working with him, youknow relate this as a potential
for, like, having to call, youknow, child protective services,

(43:47):
and you know was going off ofwhat my brother had said to her
and of course it puts, you know,I put myself into my parents
shoes and they're on thedefensive because they're like
that never happened.
You know, if it was true, thenthere would be x-ray, we would
have taken him to the hospitaland it became this whole thing
between the therapist and myparents, um, kind of arguing

(44:09):
about what the truth was,because that was what the
therapist thought was advocatingfor my brother um and you know.
And then the therapist wassaying things like well, you
wouldn't, you know, if there wasabuse happening, there might
not have been a hospital visit.
And my parents would be like,well then, wouldn't there have
been some sort of like physicalabnormality if we didn't get him

(44:33):
medical care?
And it was just this wholething, and I just remember at
that time like being like maybemy mom pulled him out of the car
in a way that was reallyfrightening to him.
You know, maybe that got weirdinto his memory in a way that,
like, was really scary for afour-year-old or a five-year-old

(44:57):
you know, and maybe the onlyway that he could actually
express how scary that was wasby creatively coming up with
this story that his arm wasbroken because it wouldn't have
been like a big enough thing tojust say like you hurt me or
that was really scary, or youknow, I felt really sort of like

(45:21):
scared about your frustration,like like there were so many
possibilities that that couldhave been you know that didn't
necessarily have to be based intruth.
It could have been based in bean emotional landscape that we

(45:47):
are not able to fully explorewith people because we're so
focused on the facts of like.
Did this happen you?
Know, I I hear this a lottalking to people about rape as
well is when they startquestioning whether or not they
were raped or not.
It's like okay.

(46:07):
So you know, do we need to abideby these strict sort of
definitions of these things, orcan we really explore what that
emotional signature that left onyou is, regardless of what we
live for?

(46:28):
You is, regardless of what welive?
You know, and I think thatpeople feel like they aren't
allowed to talk about these bighurts and these big emotional
things that happen in theirlives without calling it a thing
and labeling it as a thing, andI don't think that that's
necessarily true.
Like, as a coach, I feel likeit's my responsibility I won't
put this on anybody else, but,you know, I think it's my

(46:50):
responsibility to like get downon the like level where you're
like examining all the bugs andthe like rocks and the you know
tiny plants that are coming upon the ground, like if that's
where you're at.
Like I want to get down therewith you and like look at the
world with you instead of, likeyou know, looking at the world

(47:11):
from the top view and being likewe have to start labeling these
rocks and these you know, andcategorizing these things that
are happening.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
It's like, no, like, let's just let's just get down
on the ground and like look atthis stuff together, need to

(47:39):
reach for authority andknowingness and certainty, and
that that's the sort ofneurotypical source of our
confidence, right, and it feelsthreatening to not know or to be
a little more open and be alittle less focused on, like,

(48:01):
mastering something and insteadcultivating curiosity, right, or
just all these things we'retalking about.
I think if you have a certaindefinition of confidence, they
can feel sort of threatening toyou.
But I think it's a really thinand ungenerous way to think

(48:23):
about confidence, and then Ithink it also limits the kind of
space you can hold for otherpeople and the places you can go
and the things that mightsurface, the things you can be
curious about and even alsoreaching some of those layers
that are a little bit moreinternal or a little bit less
obvious or a little lessapparent.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
Right, I think the one thing that I do hold as an
authority when I'm with a client, though, is this feeling of
like I trust you, and in thatmoment where you don't trust
yourself, I'm going to hold thattrust for you.
I think to me there's like Ifeel like I do have to take on

(49:26):
like a little bit of anauthoritative role when I hold
that message, because,oftentimes, when people are just
like down in the middle oftheir story, like they just lose
that self-agency and trust, andto me, if I step in on one side
of authority and say, hey, Isee that you feel, um, like a
bit shaky about your self-trust,let me come in here and like.
I'll be the thing that you trustand let me tell you what to do.
Like that's one aspect ofauthority and that's not at all

(49:49):
how I think this community worksum but I think that I do find
it important to hold theauthority of like hey, in this
moment you don't trust yourself,can we name that?
And in this moment, while youcan't trust yourself, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna hold that trust foryou, and I feel like that's,

(50:11):
that's an important way to holdauthority.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
If, if there's a way that we can sort of like spin
authority in a in a positivelight yeah, it's, I almost I,
I'm, I'm just sort of likeprocessing what you're saying
and I'm almost like we need abetter word because you're right
, I hear what you're saying,that it is this kind of thing
that like you're not going toset down and you're holding onto

(50:34):
it even when you see the otherperson not holding onto it.
Right, I mean, it's not aboutit's also again, it's less about
setting down my reality andpicking up the other person's
reality.
It's not about it's also, again, it's less about setting down
my reality and picking up theother person's reality.
It's more about finding theedge where they meet and holding

(50:56):
space from there.
There's always going to be anedge.
There's always going to be anthrough this world in a way that
is fundamentally in oppositionto how I'm moving through this
world.
There's always going to be aplace where we could meet if we
both wanted to, and so it's moreabout finding that edge.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
Yeah, and I think that, like the reason why I use
the word authority is like it'sone of the only times when I
coach where I feel like I dohave to implement a bit of like
hierarchy and by hierarchy.
I mean, it's just like I haveto step outside and get up off
of the floor while you'relooking at the flowers, all the

(51:34):
shit down there, you know, and Ihave to like actually
physically, sort of like standup and like look at it with a
different perspective and.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
I think that that's where it feels like authority,
like somatically in my body, butlike again not like exact
language here yeah, it gave methis feeling when you said it
just now of like, of like, oh,you're willing to hold a loving
and firm boundary.

(52:05):
In a way, like it, it feelslike a holding, like a knight,
like a, like a security, almost.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
I'm curious because I think that different people
have different responses toreceiving a diagnosis and you
and I have talked like on apersonal level about this but,
like you know, I probably, ifsomebody were to you know do a

(52:40):
full, thorough examination on me, I probably would be diagnosed
with ADHD and I don't find thatlabel particularly helpful and
useful, which is why I work morewith coaches rather than with
therapists.
I'm curious about thiscelebration that you are feeling

(53:06):
.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, I'm curious about it too.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
It's in one person.
I'll say that, like, mybrother's wife also received an
autism diagnosis later in life,also received an autism
diagnosis later in life Um, andshe had a very similar
experience of like I feel likethis is it explains a lot and
gives me permission to be who Iam.

(53:34):
And you know, like I remembermy parents being so confused as
to like why is she so excitedabout this thing?
um, because they're of like oldschool mindset and, um, still
see autism as like a thing thatis is wrong with people and like
I love this celebratory energythat you're bringing in and I'm

(54:00):
I'm hoping that we get to sortof like explore know if I have

(54:23):
or don't have it.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Never, you know, thinking that I had it never
gave me clarity or made me feellike you know, celebratory or
more more deeply inside myselfthan when I didn't think I had
it.
I mean, part, part of me wantsto just say like I don't know.
Autistic joy is just real.
I mean, if you start readingand learning about autism and

(54:44):
listening to people talk aboutautism, there's certain phrases,
certain ideas, certain likecommon manifestations of it that
you'll hear about.
People talk about havingspecial interests, right, this
idea that autistic brains tendto be very monotropic, tend to
get hyper-focused on things,tend to care a lot about the

(55:05):
things that we care about andnot care as much about things we
don't care about.
There's a kind of like aburstingness and an enthusiasm
and there's a lot of talk aboutautistic joy.
There's a kind of there's anexperience of enthusiasm that
you can have for the things thatbring you joy.
That just there's a part of methat's just like I don't know,

(55:27):
it's real, it's just great, it'scool to be autistic.
I don't know, I just there'ssomething about that that feels
meaningful to name.
There's also, you know, part of.
Why I'm also curious about thisis because I've known so many
people for whom diagnoses arenot celebratory and they can be

(55:48):
even limiting.
Truthfully, they can create avery limiting experience and
that also depends on your ownhistory with mental illness.
It depends on the therapistyou're working with, right I
mean.
All the factors make a hugedifference, but I don't know

(56:10):
Truly.
For 36 years I've been havingthis experience.
It's something I've shared withyou.
I've named it to every singlecoach I've worked with and I've
named it to multiple therapists.
I've just often had thisfeeling of being a ghost in my
own life.
Multiple therapists like I'vejust often had this feeling of
being a ghost in my own life andI've often had this feeling
that it's like I'm trying tolook at myself and I can't see

(56:31):
her.
There's this real ghostliness,real absence that I've always
felt and my CPTSD diagnosisexplains it a little to a degree
.
Kind of loss of self Explainsit a little to a degree, you
know, kind of loss of self,intensity of self-doubt.
All I know is the minute mytherapist said the word autism,

(56:53):
right, we were having.
We had already talked aboutbringing some diagnostics to the
table we had talked about.
You know, she wanted to knowwhat diagnoses I wanted us to
explore.
Obviously, ocd was one of them.
She wanted to know if she couldsuggest some as well, and
autism was what she suggestedand the minute.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
She said it, can I just like pause there?
Yeah, yeah, like so much inthat conversation.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
A hundred percent.
I also I mean because she askedme first right, this was a
question we addressed together.
We went our separate ways.
I thought about it.
Then, at the next session, Isaid, okay, I want to talk about
OCD and I want to talk aboutbipolar disorder, Not because I
ever thought I had it, butbecause I thought there were
some things about the symptomsand diagnostics that could at
least lead us in the rightdirection.

(57:41):
And so then autism was thething that she mentioned.
All I know is I had heard aboutautism before many times.
Something in me had never givenmyself permission to consider
that that could be a truth aboutmy brain and my body, a truth

(58:05):
about my brain and my body.
The minute she offered it assomething she had observed in me
, I just felt something happenin my body that I can still feel
in this moment, and it's like athing got flipped and it just
has not unflipped since then.
It makes me a little emotionalto talk about, because that 36
years of feeling like I couldn'tsee myself since talking about

(58:28):
autism and receiving thediagnosis.
But even before she formalizedit, just when we first started
exploring it, I started havingsome of the first moments I'd
ever had in my life of feelinglike I could just see myself,
and they were happening inreally small, safe ways too.
Right, Like I do this indoorrowing class with my partner

(58:50):
once a week I've been doing itfor like two years I just I like
had a day I remember it was thefirst day that I noticed in
real time that I was autisticbecause, like the instructor was
telling us what we were goingto do that day and I noticed
that I was getting reallyfrustrated and I was not
understanding what she wassaying and I started to like,

(59:10):
kind of all these things startedhappening inside of me and I
started to get really frustratedand I felt myself wanting to do
the thing that I normally do,which is either to decide I
guess I hate this class now, orto beat myself up and be like,
oh, I'm just.
Why can't I understand?
This is not working.
Like I'm being so stupid, whatis this?

(59:31):
And then, for the first time,it's like in DBT therapy, where
you talk about like wise mind.
It's like for the first time intruly 36 years, I had this
experience of going into my wisemind.
I wasn't leaving my body, but Iwas looking at myself and I was
just like, oh, you're autistic.
This you're not.
This information right now istoo much and you're getting

(59:51):
overwhelmed.
And I just and it didn't make.
It didn't make me understandwhat was going on, but it meant
I stopped being scared because Iunderstood why it was happening
and I just thought, okay, Idon't understand what we're
supposed to be doing right now.
I'm either going to have to askher for clarity or I'm just

(01:00:13):
going to watch what other peopleare doing.
And I just watched what otherpeople were doing and it wasn't
perfect because I still didn'tunderstand.
But I just saw the way thatlike, oh, in certain situations,
with certain information, Iglitch and I don't know how to
read it, and so I read it eitheraggressively toward myself or

(01:00:34):
toward other people, and I don'teven know if I'm doing a good
job explaining it, but it justmade so much sense.
And then the next day I hadtherapy and I told her about
this and I just cried and criedand I just, I just like knew, I
just knew.
From that moment on, likethere's no if there's any part
of me that doubted that I'mautistic, like the clarity it

(01:00:57):
has given me, I know a lot abouta lot of diagnoses and mental
illness and I've been around itpersonally and professionally.
I've never had a thing justhelp me see myself so clearly
Like.
That to me is like proof thatit's real right.
If there's any part of my brainthat's still like is this

(01:01:18):
really?
I'm autistic, you know it'slike.
No, it's, I can.
I can feel it from the insideout that it's real and I think
that's where there's just it'sjust so fucking nice, it's just
so, it's just so nice to likesee myself more clearly in real
time and that's that's where thecelebration is coming from.

(01:01:39):
Like that it's.
It's so scary scary, I think,and so hard to just go so long
not understanding.
Forget about like fixing things, because there are some things
I want to address and someskills and strategies that I
would like to be learning tohelp me be in certain spaces,
but like I don't even that'llcome with time.

(01:02:03):
The the thing that is so niceto have is just to like have a
better understanding of why Iexperienced the things that I
experienced, because I've neveris me getting down on the ground
level with you um, what I'mhearing in your story is you

(01:02:36):
know with my clients I like touse this like analogy of you
know who are all the parts onyour school bus.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
You know?
And who's driving, who'sdriving the school bus and um,
and oftentimes we talk aboutthat in terms of like okay, so
there's a five-year-old who'stantruming and like do we really
want the five-year-old to bedriving the school bus in this
moment?
right and what I'm hearing isthat, like you being such an

(01:03:04):
observant person, like you knowwho all of your inner people are
, who like ride this school buswith you, and there's been this
like little tiny one who haslike been hiding in the like
back corner of the school busbecause she never thought that

(01:03:27):
like anyone would ever see herand like I can imagine how
hollow that must have felt.
Because you're like I'm takingroll call with all the little
parts of you and being like likeI feel like there's someone
missing here.
I don't know who.
Like I feel like there'ssomeone missing here.
I don't know who it is, but Ifeel like there's someone
missing, and receiving thatdiagnosis was almost like like

(01:03:52):
inviting her to like sit in theschool bus with everybody else
and telling me she's like andnow you get to like dialogue
with her, like that's reallywhat I'm hearing in the like
wise self who's like ah, like,you're having a hard time really
processing this because you'reautistic right like that doesn't

(01:04:13):
mean there's anything wrongwith you or that there's
something like that we need tofix.
It's just.
This is hard to process and youget to.
You know, a lot of the stuffthat we do is about like
parenting our inner children.
It's like this little one nevergot to be parented and now you
have an opportunity becauseyou're now able to like name her

(01:04:33):
as being a part of thisconstellation of beings on the
school bus with you, like likenow you get to have these
conversations with her, now shegets to have some of these needs
met, gets to like understandcontextually why things have
been harder, why things havebeen easy in her life.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Yeah, what I really like about your, the image and
this metaphor, is like, yeah,when my it.
I almost picture if we can likeslow down that moment when my
therapist first said the wordautism.
It's almost like she said itand my brain went to go, oh no,
but that little part of me waslike I'm here, yeah, that's

(01:05:16):
right, it's me.
I'm here, like, because therereally was this like inside out
feeling of like it was like Iknew, but the knowing was in a
part of me that my brain hadnever accessed.
It was so I truly have neverhad an experience like.
It was so strange and sopowerful the way it happened.

(01:05:39):
And I want to like make it aneven more complex metaphor
because it's also like it's likeit's there in that really,
really young part of me right,three-year-old, four-year-old,
five-year-old Sarah, who's likeautistic and doing all these
things and spending all thistime alone.

(01:06:00):
And you know, my mom has beenalso noticing things that she
didn't notice in real time andwe've been talking about this
together and kind ofreprocessing things about the
past.
And one thing she said is yeah,you know, anytime, anytime I
she tried to like explainsomething to me, or there were

(01:06:21):
instructions for a thing orthere was something to like
learn how to do.
I didn't want to have anythingexplained to me.
I wanted to take theinformation and go be alone in
my room and figure it out myself.
There's something about that theneed for me to have time and
space and be alone and figureout the thing that I, you know.
I see it in that, I see it insome of these memories I have

(01:06:41):
from childhood, but I also seeit in my teens and I also see it
in my twenties and I also seeit right now Like it's.
It's it's both this very youngpart of me and it's also like a
part of all the parts of me.
It's like it's more it's wherewe get back to that like
constellation-y thing, right,because it's it's there in those

(01:07:02):
younger parts that need a lotof protection.
And it's also like here rightnow, in the parts of me that are
where my like biggest iterationof agency exists, like it's.
And so part of the work I feelalso is like and this is really
the work of unmasking, to say,something that feels impossible,

(01:07:24):
but that is the only wayforward.
It's not just ah, I'm autistic.
Now I take the mask off andreveal it.
It's like no, there's a mask oneach part of me.
It's going to be slow, depthfulwork.
I don't even know what it lookslike to begin living a more
unmasked life.

(01:07:44):
I think the only thing I knowis that it starts with just
giving myself the time and spaceto notice how things affect me
and to notice my needs in themost inclusive way possible.
I think it's just going tostart with a lot of noticing,
which, fortunately, I'm reallygood at.
Now that I have this framework,I can begin that.

(01:08:06):
But it's sort of like everysingle kid on that bus also has
a mask on in some way, and now Ineed to help them all take them
off.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
I want to sit in the learner seat for a moment.
I want to sit in the learnerseat for a moment.
A I've become obsessed withwords lately.
I think that's partially yourdoing, sarah.
Yay, but can you describe to meand, like almost like, define

(01:08:47):
for me what unmasking is?
Hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
What a question.
Yeah, idea in general is thatfor some autistic people, in
particularly for, as I said,women and people of color,
people who are not, you know, donot readily belong to the
dominant type of person who getsto move more easily through our

(01:09:20):
modern culture, right Like cis,white man, for many of us who
belong to, you know, a moremarginalized community, we learn
usually very early on to maskour autism.
So, and you can see right away,you can even hear in the

(01:09:41):
language language, the way thiscan sort of mimic and go hand in
hand with a lot of genderedconditioning, right Like
learning to be a submissivewoman, learning to you know
people, please.
Fawning, right, when I thinkabout, like my masking, I think
about all the fawning I've donein my life.
I think about all the fawningI've done in my life.

(01:10:02):
So there's this idea that forsome of us, our autism got
masked very early on.
So there's these three wordsthat get talked about a lot
masking, compensation andcamouflaging.
I don't know that I can do areally proper job explaining the

(01:10:23):
nuanced differences between thetwo, but they are all I mean
you can hear in the languageright Camouflaging the self,
compensating for things that youdon't have, and masking to hide
what's there.
They're all tactics for safety,right?
I mean it comes back to that.
They're tactics for a safetythat is dependent on hiding a

(01:10:44):
part of what you are and who youare and how you are, and
blending in and really enactinga kind of neurotypicality, even
if it is against my will, myneed, what feels best to me.
So you know, if we can thinkabout like cut to me, being in

(01:11:10):
that, you know, grad schoolacademic classroom and me, you
know, trying to hide the factthat I didn't always know what
was going on, or trying to notlet people know when I'm not
understanding something, ortrying to pretend I'm not.
Someone who needs the amount oftime that I need, or even in

(01:11:31):
social settings right to learnhow to navigate social settings,
to learn how to make eyecontact, to learn how to sort of
, you know, blend in as anon-autistic person, for a sense
of safety and for not havingyour difference or your

(01:11:51):
divergence noticed.
Right, and masking I mean it'ssuch a funny and strange word
because again it sounds like, oh, you just take the mask off,
right to figure out how to getto the edge of that thing and

(01:12:27):
start peeling it away and get tolike an authentic sense of who
I am.
For me, it's about reallywanting to find the place in me
and the practices and the waysof being that feel most
authentic, and that is alsodifferent than a lot of the

(01:12:47):
things that I'm used to enacting, and so there's a lot of
strangeness there.
I think one of the things Iwrote in that essay, when I sort
of like announced my diagnosis,was that it doesn't just feel
like I need to take a mask off.
It feels like I'm part of thething that needs to be taken off
.
It's like very, very like loopyand strange, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
I I'm just like noticing this like surgical
precision that one would have todo to like enact in order to
like be really clear about, likewhat part of me is the mask and

(01:13:35):
what part of me is actually me,mm-hmm, what I love about your
story is that there's not thislike rush to do this like
there's almost like this feelingof like, hey, when that snake
skin is ready to shed, it'sgonna be ready and you're not

(01:13:57):
trying to like do surgery onsnake skin that's not ready to
shed yet yeah yeah go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
Oh, just yeah, I think I think you're right and I
think I think part of why Ihave that resolve is because of
the relationship I have withwriting.
I think that's one thing thatI've realized.

(01:14:28):
I mean, I've loved writing mywhole life and I started writing
when I was really really young,and what I have, what I've come
to realize post-diagnosis, isthat writing was the first thing
I loved to do, but it was alsomy earliest coping mechanism,

(01:14:52):
writing.
I mean, all those years Italked about feeling like I was
a ghost in my whole life.
Well, the one place I didn'tfeel that was on the page.
I've never felt that on thepage.
I've always had a clear senseof self.
I've always been able to go tothe page and sort of like find
me, and that doesn't mean I meanit's a very different

(01:15:12):
experience than feeling like Ihave a sense of self in the 3D
world, right Like that.
That feels important too, and Ihave a lot of curiosity,
curiosity about how to cultivatemore of that.
But I think I think having thisplace, which for me happens to
be creativity, and specificallythe page where I can sort of

(01:15:36):
feel predominantly unmasked, isalso it's a real like orienting
thing for me, and for a longtime, I mean, I think I shared
this in our like Slack communityFor a long time, even though
I've always been, I've alwayshad a positive relationship with
my writing.

(01:15:56):
I did see all of this that I'mdescribing right now for a long
time as a kind of failure of myability to be a person, almost
like I'm someone who, well, yeah, I'm really good on the page,
but I also hide behind the page.
But now I'm seeing like, oh no,there's like typical verbal

(01:16:18):
speech and social interactions.
Those can look a lot ofdifferent ways.
I attended a poetry reading twoweeks ago with a poet who is a
non-speaking autistic poet.
She does not speak verbally,she speaks through her iPad.
That's how she expressesherself, and it was one of the
most amazing, brilliant, movingexperiences I've ever had.

(01:16:40):
So the page or whatever mediumwe use to express ourselves,
that can look necessarily sodifferent for so many people and
so many bodies, and so I'm also.
You know there's a lot ofthings shifting and deepening
with that too that feel like areally important part of how I'm

(01:17:02):
able to even cope with thisRight.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
Well, I'm just hearing that, like on the page.
It gives you like that time thatyou always crave you know, like
the world moves too fast andpeople want the answer right now
.
And you know, in this iterationit's like no, like on the page,

(01:17:28):
like the way that you write tois also like kind of meandery
and like takes a lot of likecircular roads and then returns
to concepts and themes, and it'slike on the page.
You get to do that and you knowI can imagine that all these

(01:17:48):
masked parts of yourselvesdidn't always feel safe or had
the permission to do that inreal time.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
Yeah, and also sometimes it's just I don't want
to do it any other way, I needto do it on the page or I need
to communicate this thing on thepage, right?
I think it's about invitingmore neutrality into these
things and also realizing thatthe things we assume are normal
with everything, but especiallywith language and with

(01:18:20):
communication, are justneurotypical and are also like
like solidified as the statusquo.
When I went to this poetryreading, I attended.
The poet's name is Iman Bukele.
She was amazing.
Her book is published throughthe Multiverse series, which is
an imprint of milkweed.
I encourage everybody to Googleall of that and find a bunch of

(01:18:44):
really incredible poets.
But when I at the start of thepresentation, the first question
cause, she answered a couple ofquestions first and then she
had given her editor permissionto read her poems out loud and
then she answered more questionsat the end.
So the first question that sheanswered.
You know she would type on heriPad to answer the question and

(01:19:08):
that's a slow process.
The sentence is not revealed inthe way that I'm revealing a
sentence to you right now atthis, like very quick speed.
It's a word at a time and whenI first heard her answer a
question.
My thought was, oh, this isreally slow.
And by the end of the 90 minutes, or however long the experience

(01:19:32):
was, my perspective had totallyflipped and I felt like why
does everybody talk so quicklyall the time?
Why do everybody talk soquickly all the time?
Why do I talk so quickly allthe time?
So I think also, when I saylike, oh, divergent practices,
it's not just about beingwilling to tolerate them, but

(01:19:52):
look at what they offer all ofus.
Look at what it can offer allof us to give ourselves space to
value and to be curious aboutwhat might I express if, rather
than rushing to say the thingand to know the thing as quickly
as possible, what if I givemyself time and space which I
can practice doing, maybe with alittle more ease on the page?

(01:20:16):
What will that help me seeabout myself?
That will make my experience ofmyself and my thoughts and my
feelings and my inspirationsmaybe a little bit bigger than
they have been up until now.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
Yeah, I love that and it's like there's a presence
that happens when you're able toslow down in that way.
Slow down in that way.
You know, I think that Iexperience time a little bit
differently, being more on thelike ADHD sort of end of the
spectrum and like it'ssimultaneously like a weird

(01:20:51):
thing because I can move quitequickly in the world, but it's
also not my preferred mode ofbeing, as I think that there's
an unmasking that happens in theway that you're speaking of,
like very specific to autism,but also like as my I'm
exploring my own nervous systemin real time, like moving with

(01:21:12):
the seasons of my new land andmoving with the bodies of my
horses, and a lot of thetraining work that I do with my
horses is question and answer.
You know, can I pick up yourfoot?
Will you move your nose thatway?
Will you follow me?
Can I follow you?

(01:21:32):
And the speed of animals whenthey're in a sympathetic state
is very quick because they needto move very quickly, but when
they're in a sympathetic stateis very quick because they need
to move very quickly but, whenthey're in a parasympathetic
state.
They sit and ponder thatquestion for a real long time,
sometimes to the point wherelike I used to feel kind of
uncomfortable and I was justworking with um forest this

(01:21:55):
morning and you know, like Ijust made a note of like okay,
how long does it take him toanswer a question?
And so I would ask him aquestion of like hey, can we
move together in a circletogether?
And it would be five or sixseconds sometimes before he
would respond.

(01:22:15):
It's like what would happen ifwe all moved in varying
timelines and how would thatsort of create capacity in a
different way?

(01:22:36):
I'm hearing in this experiencewith your attending the poetry
reading is like just the sheerfact that, like she can only
answer a question one word at atime dropped you into a
timescape that is just foreignand new and like to me it sounds

(01:23:01):
like it brought the wholeaudience into a sense of
presence.
You know, and that's really whatI get when I slow down with my
horses is it's like oh, like,let me go at your speed like let
me not rush you you know, and Ican see that they're thinking
the whole time like like thesame way that you're talking

(01:23:23):
about, like word after wordafter word after word I'm like,
oh, like, forest is processing,he's blinking, he's, you know,
chewing.
He's like, literally likechewing on whether he wants to
do this thing that I've askedhim to do or not.
And you know, if I were to rushhim, it would push him out of

(01:23:43):
presence and it would push meout of presence too.
And I think that's like.

Speaker 2 (01:23:48):
That's one of the beautiful takeaways that I'm
having from this conversation isit's like hey, like can we
visit other timelines and likewhat that visitation can offer
us yeah, yeah, there's so muchthat can happen between the

(01:24:08):
space of question and answer andand again it's about like
pleasantly scrambling ourexpectations around, like when
we think there's nothinghappening just because we're not
yet seeing the answer.
But there's other thingshappening, right.
It's again this need to likethink a little bit more

(01:24:29):
inclusively about you know whatwe expect the thing to look like
, or what we think is or isn'thappening in those spaces of
silence and waiting.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
I want to start wrapping up the conversation
here, but I have one lastquestion, as, like somebody
who's you know continuing to sitin the learner seat is you had
alluded to this, this stereotypeof, of autism, of like what it
typically looks like, and evenas somebody who has worked in

(01:25:08):
the medical industry for a verylong time, even though I, like,
was in eastern medicine, I gotlike pretty formalized western
medicine training and this isexactly what they tell us is
autism is more common in boys.
It is more common in white boys.
It looks like this the fewexperiences that I've had with

(01:25:30):
people I've known who wereautistic were very sort of like
stereotypical.
You know, I had a client whowas like obsessed, like I love
that, like autistic joy that youwere talking about.
Like he was obsessed with civilwar generals like I've never
seen somebody who could?

(01:25:51):
gain so much joy from knowingeverything about generally.
Um, and you know, I I want tojust open up the space for you
to describe a different picture,a different constellation of
what autism can look like,because I think that a lot of
people don't know how to perhapsidentify themselves in a way

(01:26:16):
that might be helpful.
And so like putting you intothe framework in the context of
like before your diagnosis.
What would have been helpful toknow about what an autistic
experience in life could looklike.
But like we have a differentpicture.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
But like we have a different picture, a more
nuanced and more colorfulpicture of what looks like
outside of a textbook definition, mm, hmm, yeah, this is a
really good question and and Ido want to just caveat it by
saying, well, the the best way Ican answer this is what I wrote
in that essay that I published,where I announced that I'm
autistic.
Yeah, truly, that is like themost comprehensive.

(01:27:07):
But in addition to that andagain I can't overemphasize how
much Devin Price's writing aboutautism, and particularly his
book Unmasking Autism, hasplayed such a huge, huge role,
and so what I'm about to say, Ireally feel like I'm pulling

(01:27:30):
from the wisdom and the researchthat I've learned from his work
.
I think some of the main things, some of the really big aha
moments for me around autism,have been realizing that again
there's this tendency for thebrain to be kind of monotropic,

(01:27:50):
to be able to get into theselike hyper focused states where
you sort of like forget to eatand you forget to drink water
and you can sort of you can, youcan be in like a flow state but
you can sort of like lose trackof your 3d body really easily.
You can, you can get into that,that space also, this idea of

(01:28:11):
being a bottom-up thinker, solike a more neurotypical brain
might enter a room, take in theenvironment, environment, see
what's going on and be able tovery easily and quickly kind of
synthesize what's happening andknow which details to keep in

(01:28:31):
mind and which details to setdown and then figure out where
to go from, there in the room orin the situation or at the
event.
For an autistic brain, there's aharder time to know what's
important and what matters andwhat doesn't.
You're like taking in all ofthe information and a lot of
details and so you can get kindof stuck like not understanding

(01:28:57):
what matters based on what's athand and what doesn't matter.
You can sort of you can maybefeel like you're getting stuck
on a detail that you can't getpast, even though maybe other
people are like well, thatdoesn't, that's not important to
what's going on here, and it'slike no, but I, but this doesn't
make sense to me.
I need to like understand thisfirst.
So there's this sort of likegetting into the weeds, yeah,

(01:29:21):
bottom up processing.
There's also and I'm reallyglad I'm going to mention this
before we go there can be areally different relationship to
intuition and to knowing.
And it's so funny because for along time I used to even tell

(01:29:41):
people like I don't really haveintuition, and a lot of times
that was met with you know.
Oh, of course you do.
Of course you do Likereassurance, and I do think I
have cultivated more of anintuition over the past couple
of years than I used to have.

(01:30:08):
But for autistic brains it isvery common that you don't
necessarily experience theselike knee jerk, like aha things.
You need a lot of informationand I am someone who needs a lot
of information and I really ittakes me a long time to know.
I can't tell you how many timesin therapy I have asked my
therapist like she'll ask me aquestion and I'll say, well, how
would I know?
Or I'll say what does knowingfeel like?

(01:30:30):
Like it's really hard for me toknow what knowing feels like,
and I think it feels differentin my brain and body than it
tends to feel, feels differentin my brain and body than it
tends to feel.
And so it it.
It makes my relationship tointuition and knowing and making
decisions for myself look alittle bit different and and

(01:30:51):
maybe a little less glamorousthan some of the ways that we
can think about.
You know, just those aha likemoments of knowing.
It's I do, I have had those.
They are not the norm for meand I used to think you know,
see it as a flaw that I neededall this information, and now
it's like oh, no, no, no, mybrain just needs the information

(01:31:12):
it needs right.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
It's another shift and I think that there I just
want to like insert and I thinkthat there I just want to like
insert, like it's totally okaythat you need a lot of
information, and I also see thatthis is like a vulnerability
that can be exploited.
Um, because in that like again,like I'm just going to use the

(01:31:38):
horse analogy in that pod, wherelike forest is trying to decide
.
Do I want to, you know, do thething that cat is asking me.
I could then come in and putpressure on him to make that
decision so much faster thanhe's ready to make that decision
, absolutely giving him all thespace and giving you all the

(01:32:01):
information that he needs sothat I can clearly communicate,
like, hey, this is the directionthat I want us to move in.
And you know, I think that thisis a place where I've seen, in
some of my clients, wheregaslighting can happen, even in
the therapy field, where, um,because people are uncomfortable

(01:32:23):
with the pace at which youintuit things and also how you
intuit things and because itmight be different from how they
intuit things um or they mightalso be neurodivergent and be
uncomfortable with how theyintuit things, and so they're
projecting their own sort ofinsecurities onto your situation

(01:32:48):
.
Um, like, I've seen this in.
um, it just opens up a spacewhere there's potential for,
like, just pressure to come inyeah so I just um I wish, if you
don't have a Sean in your lifeSean is my husband if you don't

(01:33:11):
have a Sean in your life, like,I wish that I could gift you a
Sean because, like there'ssomething so beautiful about
somebody saying, like I love theway that your brain works it's
so different from the way mybrain works and like I know that

(01:33:34):
you have a really wonderfulpartner and he is accepting and
amazing, and I imagine all sortsof wonderful and I also just
would be like another person inyour corner saying like I love
the way your brain works, sarah,and you know I've been in awe

(01:33:54):
of your writing for a very longtime.
People, if you are listening tothis, I please go and subscribe
to her sub stack.
Um, and, you know, flow in thethe juicy timeline of somebody
who's got a different than yours.

(01:34:15):
um, quite honestly, like I seeyour emails come and they
typically tend to be a bitlonger- and so I will flag it
and come back to it when I knowthat I have a moment, and to me
that's such a gift to be able tolike bring a bit of presence in
my life, like the same way thatyou were just sharing about the

(01:34:38):
reading it.
it's like you bring that into mylife as well, through the
self-stack, because it's like,oh, like, I really actually do
want to prioritize this and Iwant to hear what you know, what
Sarah has to say, and I can'tjust consume this while I'm, you
know, standing in line at thegrocery store, the way that I

(01:34:59):
could, you know, just flipthrough an Instagram post.
It asks me to slow down.
So yeah, thank you so much foryou, and your work.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
No, I thank you.
I really appreciate that, thatreflection, and I appreciate too
you naming the vulnerability.
Yeah, I think folks who areneurodivergent in general and
certainly for a lot of autisticknow it's like bad things can
happen.
I I I've encountered inmultiple things I've read really

(01:35:44):
like really devastatingstatistics about like the
overlap between people who areautistic and who find themselves
easily, um like drawn intocults, like there there's a kind
of like impressionability, thatthat makes you really, really
vulnerable and and yes, it canbe exploited.
And to loop that back to thislike wonderful reflection you

(01:36:06):
just gave, I feel like it's beena journey for me to also like,
just be mindful of like wantingto protect the way I think and
write, mindful of like wantingto protect the way I think and
write and not wanting to let mywriting become something that is
easier for people to digest,even if that would make it more

(01:36:28):
successful.
Or, you know, help me move inthe direction of like
neurotypical success, which islike trying to go viral or
something right.
Like I don't think any of myessays are going to go viral
anytime soon and I'm very muchlearning to be okay with that,
Because it's I value.
I value the thing that ispreventing me from having that

(01:36:49):
kind of, that kind of success.
So, thank you, Thank you forthat reflection.

Speaker 1 (01:36:55):
Yeah, yeah, please don't change the way that you
write.
I think it's exactly, you know,like it's something that I, that
we talk about in BAM, is likehey, like you show up, as you
and your people are going tofind you, like that you know and
I get really excited to thinkabout like hey, like what

(01:37:16):
happens when Sarah startsunmasking all these parts of her
that you've lived your life asauthentically as you could up
until this point.
So it's like, you know, we'reall doing our best with the
information that we have,totally, and a piece of
information that I imagine isjust going to help you deepen
into relationship with self,relationship with your work,

(01:37:42):
going to help you deepen intorelationship with self,
relationship with your work andyeah, I get excited to, to see
what's on the horizon for you,me too, me too.
Thanks, kat well, I'll put allthose resources down in the show
notes.
Um, this is going to be a heftyshow note load, so click

(01:38:02):
through those pieces and pleaselet us know how we can find you
in the internet world.
If people don't want to like,just click through all the show
notes.

Speaker 2 (01:38:13):
Yeah, yeah, my website, Sarah Teresa cookcom,
so Sarah does have an H at theend.
Teresa does not have an H.
All my stuff is linked on mywebsite, but you can also go
straight to my sub stack atSarah cooksubstackcom.
Those are the two main places Ishow up and and all the, all

(01:38:33):
the good things are there.

Speaker 1 (01:38:35):
Yay, thanks for having this conversation with me
and I'll see you soon, thanks.

Speaker 2 (01:38:42):
Kat.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}139. Unmasking the Constellation of Autism with Creativity Coach Sarah Cook

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

All Episodes

139. Unmasking the Constellation of Autism with Creativity Coach Sarah Cook

Stuff You Should Know