143. Unpacking the Ethics of Marketing Nervous System Work with Lindsey Lockett

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
hello, and it's been a minute since we've had a
chance to hang out with lindsey.
Hello, good to be back yeah,we're here.
We have this series lindsey andI have created called webs of
truth.
You can find it on both of ourpodcasts.
I have renamed my podcast, soI'm no longer the rooted
business podcast, I'm theemotional alchemy podcast.

(00:23):
Thank you.
It feels really good and cozyto to put on that coat.
Um, and then Lindsay's got theholistic trauma healing podcast
and um, yeah, we've got.
We are fired up.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Indeed, I'd have a B in my bonus.
I'm like bouncing around andmoving around.
I'm on it, you can see.
I'm like bouncing around andmoving around.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
You are bouncing.
She's ready, yeah, so bigumbrella.
We want to talk about nervoussystem work and some of the
problematic things that we'reseeing in the social media world
in terms of how nervous systemwork is being utilized and
marketed.
Nervous system work is beingutilized and marketed, and then

(01:10):
we also want to like give youtools on how to create
discernment around what you'reseeing I feel like that's a
really, really big piece is likewe don't just want to sit here
and complain about the thingsthat we're seeing out there.
Like we want you to be able tolike, digest and really
integrate this information insuch a way that, like you as a
consumer, you as a practitioner,can start to feel into what it
feels like in your body whenyou're seeing this kind of

(01:30):
information and, um, what youcan do differently, both as
consumer and practitioner.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
So that's that's going to be our, our big topic
topic of the day I think weshould also just to like dangle
a carrot in front of ourlisteners is that we're going to
talk about the functionalfreeze.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh yeah, Right now.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
That is a huge hot button term and a thing that I
have lots of issues with.
So, before we get into all this, I would like us to both sort
of frame what our experience isaround nervous system work.
Both of us have come up.
We've been talking about thenervous system for a very long

(02:12):
time.
We were talking about it before.
It was like this, like hashtagworthy thing.
And so, lindsay, can you justshare a little bit about your
experience with nervous systems,what your frameworks are, what
your sort of philosophies arearound nervous systems and why
it's so important.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Absolutely so.
This will come as no surpriseto you, but I think that the
body is a fucking genius way,smarter than we will ever be in
our minds, and that is becauseof the nervous system.
Like, the nervous system is thegenius of our bodies and her

(02:53):
regulation, her dysregulation,all the ways that she's speaking
to you through sensations andsymptoms and feelings, and all
of that are her way ofcommunicating and just being
like I'm giving you the answersin the back of the book.
Like I'm really giving you theanswers in the back of the book.
But we in our like you knowhuman minds and egos and stories

(03:17):
and all of that, have to bewilling to be with those
feelings and sensations longenough that we develop a
relationship of trust with ourbodies so that then we can
interpret those messages.
And the longer I work withnervous systems, the more
clients I work with, the more myapproach has, like I feel like

(03:39):
it has gotten a lot bigger.
It has gotten more spacious ina way that you know, four years
ago when I was first startingout with this, or three years
ago when I was first startingout with this, I was very much
into like teaching nervoussystem regulating tools, and I
still think it's important forpeople to have tools, especially
when you get outside yourwindow of tolerance.

(04:02):
But it wasn't until I had my ownembodied experience of being in
a moment of processing somereally big anger, and I had
gotten so good at using nervoussystem tools that my body
automatically, or I, went intomy tools of like, breathing and,
you know, trying to calm myselfdown, and it was

(04:23):
counterproductive to the workthat I needed to do.
I needed to have this big angerthing.
I needed to let that energymove up and out and go through
my body and metabolize that, andinstead I was like fighting
myself with breath work and Ihad to surrender the tools and

(04:45):
have that embodied experience oflike.
Okay, the more I'm willing tofeel my feelings and whatever is
happening in my body, the lessI need nervous system regulating
tools, and using nervous systemregulating tools can become a
really sneaky way to avoidfeelings.
So we can use nervous systemtools in the same way that we

(05:05):
use scrolling or Netflix or foodor alcohol or whatever our
other coping tools are.
We can use nervous system toolsin the same way, and so I
learned that very hard lessonthat I now implement with myself
and my clients, and so there'sso much more space around
feelings and less need to sortof control the experience and

(05:31):
just trust like your nervoussystem knows what to do.
My nervous system knows what todo.
She just needs some time andsome space and she definitely
doesn't need to be pathologized.
Um, and there's nothing to fix,there's nothing wrong, you're
not broken.
Um, and so, yeah, my, myperspective on the nervous

(05:52):
system is like deeply, deeplyhonoring every single client's
experience, every person'sbodily responses, and being able
to hear their stories in linewith or laid over the top of the
state of their nervous system.

(06:13):
And instead of being like, oh myGod, how are we going to fix
this?
How are we going to shift this?
Like here's this tool and thishomework and this thing and this
thing.
Instead of being like that,which is very much how I was
when I first started coachingNow I'm just like, oh, your
stories laid over the context ofthe state of your nervous
system.
It makes so much sense Like yes, yes to whatever you're feeling

(06:39):
, and like when you feel thatsafety and that trust within
yourself, then we can start todo some things that are not
nervous system tools thatactually amplify your ability to
feel, to process, digest,metabolize and integrate those
experiences.
So yes, that was my long answer.
What is your perspective on thenervous system, kat?

Speaker 1 (07:03):
I mean, I think that the reason why we get along so
well is because there's so muchoverlap.
You know, I came through theEastern medicine world and I was
an acupuncturist for the first12 years of my work as a space
holder and I remember, even inEastern medicine school, like

(07:23):
they did not get into thenervous system in the ways that
I like, fully like it.
They did it a disservice.
It was just sort of this likepassing thing of like here are

(07:43):
your cranial nerves, here areyour peripheral nerves, and like
, you know, go figure stuff out.
It wasn't until I graduated andstarted, you know, taking
courses and workshops andreading tons of books about the
nervous system, where I was like, oh, like, this is where the
intersectionality of ouremotions and our physical bodies
comes to play and the thingsthat we experience through our
emotional landscape shows up inour physical landscape and vice

(08:06):
versa.
And so like, if we are todiscount this entire incredibly
wise system and I know that youthink of the nervous system work
as like being sacred medicine,which is what I also think of it
as, and I don't know that youknow traditional medicines would
be thinking of it in thisparticular way, but I do know
that, in acupuncture inparticular, we're working

(08:29):
directly with the nervous system, even if they didn't know what
that was in physical form.
And so for me, the way that Ithink about the body is it's
always trying to communicatewith us very similar to what you
said and the language that itknows how to communicate through

(08:53):
is through signs and symptomsand discomfort.
And so when we do the modernmedicine thing of oh, there's a
pain there, let's just cover itup.
Oh, there's a feeling there,let's just breathe through it.
Oh, there's something that'scoming up that feels
uncomfortable to you.
We have to figure out a way tofix that.
And instead I started looking atthe nervous system as being
communicators of our lifeexperiences, like can we look at

(09:20):
the thing that our body isfeeling threatened by, which is
oftentimes an external state?
And so sometimes I'll haveclients who come through and
they're like I'm in a like toxicrelationship with my partner
and I don't know why I can't goto sleep.
It's like well, the obvious.
You just said the obvious thingthere, right?

(09:41):
So instead of being like, oh,we need to fix the insomnia
which is a sign and symptom ofyour nervous system being
dysregulated, let's look at whatis environmentally going on and
focus on some of those thingsand see if we can work on
integrating your story.

(10:01):
There might be a story thereworking on removing or inviting
things in that are, you know,going to be helpful for you.
Take a more macro view of whatis going on in your life and,
like you're saying, you knowthese things are totally
understandable.
You know it's totallyunderstandable that you know
when your partner says somethingabout you not putting the

(10:23):
dishes away, you might go backto an early childhood memory of
being punished for being messy.
And so then your nervous systemgoes into a state where it
feels really threatened.
And so you know, even if yourpartner's not doing that, out of
a state of like, like wantingto be critical and toxic, like
it might be coming from aninternal state of like, hey,

(10:44):
like let's go hang out with thatlittle kid who was criticized
for being messy.
And like it might be comingfrom an internal state of like,
hey, like, let's go hang outwith that little kid who was
criticized for being messy.
And like, help that personwithin you feel a little bit
safer, a little bit morecomfortable and you know, figure
out what the next actions aregoing to be.
I think that through this workwith nervous systems, what I've
learned is that oh my gosh, howlong is this conversation going

(11:07):
to be?
Lindsay, like, I think that aspractitioners, we are trained to
prescribe things for people Iknow I certainly was trained how
to do that like these are theherbs that you need to take.
These are the points that youneed to.
You know needle.
These are the herbs that youneed to take.
These are the points that youneed to.
You know needle.

(11:27):
These are the things that youneed to do in your own life.
You know whether they're likelifestyle recommendations or not
, and doing this work aroundnervous systems has, again,
similar to you, helped mesurrender and put that power and
that empowerment, like backinto the hands of the client,
because what my job actually isis to create a safe place so

(11:51):
that where a client only seestwo options, they can now see
three, four or five options, andthey're creating those options
for themselves.
I don't like and when I do offersuggestions, I am very, very
explicit and clear about this isadvice.
It is up to you and it is yoursovereign decision to take this
advice or not, but these are thethings that I'm seeing in your

(12:14):
life that might, you know, bebetter if we sort of shifted
these things.
But ultimately, I find that themost powerful shifts happen
when a client is able to feelsafe, and then they come up with
those options themselves andthey feel empowered to take
those choices themselves.
And you know, I think that aspractitioners, we can all or we,

(12:38):
maybe we should all go back tothe way that our you know
grandmother, which is, uh, usedto practice, which is hold safe
space and allow people to betheir own people.
And the nervous system guidesall of that yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
Couldn't agree with you more yay and which is why we
do this work, and yeah, I thinkwe're on the same page, yeah,
yeah.
so I think that that is a greatspot to segue into a big topic
of our conversation today, whichis, um, you know, when you and
I first started out in the worldof the nervous system, like

(13:16):
four or five years ago, uh, wewere.
There weren't very many peopletalking about the nervous system
at that point, like it was notmainstream, like it is today.
I mean, I would still argueit's still not totally
mainstream, but it's gotten alot more attention and
popularity and it's kind ofbecome trendy, which is

(13:37):
fortunate because it needs to betalked about People need to
understand that they have anervous system and how it works
and how it's impacted by traumaand how that informs the rest of
their lives, of course.
But at the same time, whensomething becomes trendy we and
we're seeing this with thenervous system it becomes
oversimplified, it becomes a hotcommodity, it becomes something

(14:03):
that people can learn how topush pain points in order to
market whatever it is thatthey're selling.
Um, it becomes, uh, likemechanical, versus being sacred.
I feel like it's become likemechanical, like oh, if I can
just identify the state that I'min and do this thing, then I

(14:24):
can shift, you know, and I findit so ironic because it's like
the work of the nervous systemis such it's literally not
happening in your head, likeit's not a logical, analytical,
cognitive process, it is anembodied process.
And yet a lot of the marketingthat I'm seeing from new

(14:46):
creators on Instagram who aremarketing courses and programs
and things like that, in myopinion, they are treating the
nervous system like it's thismechanical, like plug in these
variables and you will get theanswer that you need.
And here is my somatic workoutprogram that's going to shift
you out of functional freeze in60 days and like all of these

(15:07):
promises and I feel soconflicted within myself because
I'm like, yes, nervous systeminformation is getting out there
, yay.
And then the other part of meis like shit, this is not what
it was supposed to be.
This is taking the sacrednessout of it.
This is taking the slowness outof it.
When we start putting timelineson the nervous system by

(15:30):
offering a program that promisesX result in 30 days, 60 days,
something like that, we'reapplying the same sense of
urgency that has dysregulated usto begin with.
It reminds me of like whenever Ifirst got into the world of
like healthy, eating healthy,and like realizing that
processed foods were not healthyfor me, and like trying to

(15:52):
shift my diet into somethingthat was much more whole foods,
real foods, things like that.
Like when I was in theprocessed food era of my life, I
had a lot of anxiety.
I was extremely perfectionisticwith my life.
I had like hypervigilance andcatastrophization already
happening in my life, and sothen, whenever I got into the

(16:13):
world of like healthy food, Ibrought those same patterns with
me.
So then the way I wasapproaching my eating and my
diet was through the lens oflike oh my gosh, if I don't eat
perfectly, then I'm going to getcancer and I'm going to die.
So perfectionism,catastrophization,
hypervigilance about symptoms,anxiety about food, about

(16:34):
symptoms, about health it's likeit was the exact same patterns
I already had, manifesting in anew container.
And I see some of thesepractitioners that I'm sure
they're well-meaning, I'm surethey're gifted at what they do,
but the way that they'representing it to the consumer,
to the potential client, or atleast my interpretation of it,

(16:56):
is like these people are alreadydysregulated, so you're just
using their own dysregulation tolure them into a program.
So they'll pull out theircredit card, they'll hit the buy
now button and they'll do yourprogram that's guaranteed in 30
days or 60 days, and then,whenever it doesn't work,
somehow it's their fault andthey need to buy the next

(17:16):
program.
It's like, oh well, you justdid the first one, so now you
need to buy the follow-upprogram.
That's the complete package,and it just keeps us on that
hamster wheel of constantlychasing versus honoring where
our bodies are at, not putting atimeline on our nervous systems
, not putting any sense ofurgency to heal or whatever, and

(17:37):
really following the wisdom ofour bodies.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
There's several things that I want to pick out
there, um, and I think one ofthe the pieces that I want to
start out with is that intentionmatters so much.
You know we're not sitting herebeing like don't ever do breath
work or don't ever do shaking,like.
I use shaking and breath workall the time, both in myself and

(18:02):
with my clients.
I think think the intention ofthe tool is so, so important.
So, if you are shaking toactually feel the feeling and
allow that to be a part of yourhuman and somatic experience,
then you are using the tool inthe way that it was intended.

(18:23):
If you are shaking to get ridof that feeling because you are
using the tool in the way thatit was intended.
If you are shaking to get ridof that feeling because you are
using it as another way to likeget yourself out of the
uncomfortable feeling, because alot of times I was just talking
about this with a clientyesterday where she was, like
you know, when I first startedworking with you, like in a way
it was easier because I was numband now, like, I'm feeling all

(18:45):
these things and it feels reallyhard and it feels really
painful.
Is it supposed to feel like this?
And like, the thing that I cansay to her in that moment is,
yes, like you were meant to feelall of this.
You were meant to feel theanger, you're meant to feel the
sadness and the grief and all ofthat, and so you know, we don't
want to like blow people out ofthe water with their feelings,
and so it's really about like,how can we help titrate?

(19:07):
But it's never about like, hey,here's anger, let's give you a
prescription so you don't feelanger anymore.
So I think that intentionalityis so, so important.
Um, I think that the problemwith the way that we're seeing
nervous system tools beingmarketed right now is, again,

(19:31):
it's like what is theintentionality behind it?
And I look behind, just becauseI can't not anymore like, sort
of like I can see the wizardbehind the curtain.
Sure, I think you're beinggenerous honestly, like when
you're saying that, like theirintentions are good and you know
, I'm sure they know whatthey're doing.

(19:52):
I'm like I don't know.
If that's true.
I think that they learned athing and they figured out how
to market it well, because theyput it under the framework of
pain point marketing, whichworks incredibly well.
I mean, if we all did painpoint marketing, like if you and

(20:12):
I did pain point marketing,with the tools that we have,
with the like methodologies thatwe practice, with the
experience that we have, like Idon't know, like we would
probably be in much morelucrative businesses, we'd
probably be millionaires,honestly.

(20:33):
But like, to me it's like, if Iwant to create a sense of safety
with my clients from the verybeginning, I'm not going to use
that pain point marketing toolBecause, like, like, it is
unethical, it's manipulative,and that's really what I have a
problem with out in the worldright now is we are taking this
sacred, depthful medicine andthen we are applying plain point

(20:58):
marketing to it, marketing itto the masses in a way that,
like you, don't offer connection, like that's.
The other piece around this isthat nervous system work
requires connection to like,help you as you're moving
through this, because whathappens inevitably is that, as
you do nervous system work,there's going to be stuff that's
unlocked, and then what do youlike?

(21:19):
And then you're left with nosupport in those kinds of
programs.
Yeah, you're on the video,you're watching the video, and
then something gets unlocked andyou're left with no support in
those kinds of programs.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, yeah, you're on the video, you're watching the
video and then something getsunlocked and you're like but
there's no person there to holdspace for me to tell me what to
do with that.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, or even normalize the experience.
Yeah, you know, like that's,the conversation that I had with
my client yesterday is like.
She was like is this normal?
And I was like, yes, it is thisnormal.
And it's like, yes, it isabsolutely normal.
It means that your body isworking in the way it's intended
to, and it's hard and it'spainful, you know, and it's
going to get better, like youknow.

(21:54):
Think about when your footfalls asleep and you know you're
trying to like walk to thekitchen again.
It's really painful in thoselike few minutes that your blood
is coming back to your, to yourlimb, but eventually you're
able to walk to the kitchenagain, you know.
And so it's the same thing likewhen our emotions are shut down
and we're disconnected from ourbodies.

(22:14):
When we come back into ourbodily experiences and our
emotional experiences, it iskind of painful and it's
actually meant to be that way,because you should have been
feeling all that all the waythrough.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, yeah, the pain has always been there.
You just weren't aware of itbecause of all the ways that
you've learned to cope, to turnthe pain off, to ignore it, to
repress it, whatever.
I'm curious for people who maynot understand or really grasp,
like could you just brieflyexplain, like what pain point
marketing is?
Yeah, we can tell that together, just so people know what we're

(22:49):
coming from.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah.
So pain point marketing, I A,it is all around us, and so as
soon as we sort of start talkingabout it and you sort of have
that in your life filter system,now you can look around you.
And this is part of thediscernment that I really want
to talk about is, like, asconsumers, as practitioners, how

(23:13):
do we not fall prey to and howdo we not utilize pain point
marketing, because it'sessentially unethical.
But what, what it looks like is, oftentimes there's a list of
you know, things that somebodyis struggling with, and in that
process of like listing thosethings out, there's this

(23:34):
inherent twisting of the storyof like there's something wrong
with you, like there's somethinggoing on with you that you need
to fix, and they'll twist theknife on that story.
And then they'll come in with ahey, here's a magical program,
here I am the hero of your story, all you need to do is work

(23:55):
with me.
And so you know, I and I invitepeople to feel into their bodies
when they experience that kindof marketing, because oftentimes
for me, when I feel into likebecause I still like, I'm
scrolling on Instagram andseeing all this shit all the
time too it's like oh, you'retrying to bring on this feeling

(24:18):
of like FOMO, like fear ofmissing out, or you are putting
this person or putting thisaudience member into a state
where they feel victimized.
And so it's like, in this stateof victimhood, somebody please
come help me out of this pain,right?
And so I think it's reallyimportant to really understand

(24:40):
the distinction between painpoint marketing, which is
twisting the knife on the mostpainful thing and the most
tender thing that's in thatperson's life, versus going down
into the same level andempathizing with that person and
understanding that person'sexperience and saying like, hey,
I understand what you're goingthrough and I understand that

(25:03):
it's really painful, and let'ssupport you from the bottom up
and let's move through thistogether and there is actually
nothing wrong with you.
And so that's kind of my long.
I wish there was a shorter wayto explain that.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
I don't think there is, though I mean, that's like
saying that there could be ashorter way to explain it, as
like saying there's a shorterway to heal the nervous system.
You know, like there's not.
There's just not, but I thinkthat this is a great time for me
to kind of share that.
Um, you know, for about six oreight months now, maybe longer,

(25:40):
I've been in what I would call astate of burnout, just feeling
really depleted.
Sleep has been suffering,having some random mystery
symptoms pop up that I know arejust related to my nervous
system, like struggling andbeing like help, and so I can
identify that as a state ofburnout.

(26:01):
Identify that as a state ofburnout.
And if I did not, if I was notwhere I am in my life right now,
with the understanding of thenervous system that I have and
the understanding of thespaciousness and the slowness
required to get back into astate of safety and more
nourishment, so that you're notfeeling so burned out Like I

(26:21):
totally, you know three yearsago, would have fallen victim if
somebody on Instagram had beenlike oh, are you experiencing
burnout?
You know, do you feel this,this, this and this?

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Oh my gosh, because I took screenshots.
I'm not going to share thenames of these accounts but,
like, I took screenshots of likesome of these examples that we
were talking about.
So like pain point marketing.
When I finally realized that myrestless nights and chronic
neck tension were symptoms ofADHD, I switched from HIIT
workouts to somatic exercisesand it transformed my life.

(26:56):
These exercises work withemotions, help to reduce ADHD
symptoms.
One year later, I haveregulated my cortisol levels,
lost 27 pounds, I no longer feelneck tension and other symptoms
.
Things like when you start usinghypnotherapy to heal your
procrastination trauma, but thenyour procrastination
disappeared.
You're promoted at work, youfixed your relationship, the

(27:18):
house is clean and tidy, you'reproductive like never before,
feeling organized and happy, nostress, no anxiety, reaching
your goals and living the lifepeople always dreamed of.
So it's like amazing, like ifyou're in that state of like,
deep burnout, like you weretalking about.
You know you see something likethis on your instagram feed and

(27:40):
you're like oh, yeah, give me,give me, give me, give me, yeah,
this is what I need.
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
And so if I didn't have the understanding of my
nervous system that I have, Iwould fall prey to that type of
marketing.
I would be like, oh my gosh,you have a 10, a free 10 point
PDF.
It's going to give me yourburnout protocol, like sign me
up, right, but what part of thediscernment that you're talking
about that I want to share withour listeners is that if you're

(28:08):
just taking this information offof social media and it is
checking all the boxes for you,the question that you have to
ask yourself through thatdiscernment is like okay, but in
the context of my own situation, in the context of my life,
does this thing that I'mexperiencing make sense?

(28:32):
And so, if I think back, youknow I've been burned out for
six, eight months, somethinglike that.
Well, if I think back to theyou know, two years before the
burnout started, like I wasballs deep in building a
business from the ground up,like I was creating, I was
coaching, I was posting onsocial media, I was building a

(28:55):
following, I was trying out amembership, and then I pivoted
and tried a different membership, like I was doing all of these
different, very productivethings.
And that's just in my businesslife.
If you look at my life from aholistic standpoint, I also live
in the woods and eight monthsof the year is winter and that's
very stressful because there'smoving snow and moving firewood

(29:18):
and keeping the fire going allthe time and taking care of all
the things outside so thatnothing freezes and gets damaged
.
And then I also was parentingtwo older teenagers and that
comes with stressors of its own.
My relationship was goingthrough many different
transformations which can bestressful and requires a lot of
resources within myself.
So like, if I look at the oh,I've been burned out for six or

(29:40):
eight months.
Well, given the context of thelast two years of my life, that
makes sense, and so it is thewisdom of my body to shift me
into a state of what I wouldcall burnout, but which you and
I know is more of a ventral ordorsal vagal state, because the

(30:00):
body's like, hey, we don't havea whole lot of gas left yeah
it's time to put the brakes on.
It's time to refuel.
We don't have a lot of gas left.
It's time to rest and nourishand support, because we can't
sustain that high productivity,high output.
You know space all the time,Like nobody can sustain that

(30:24):
state indefinitely.
And are there things that Icould have done during those two
years to maybe have preventedthe burnout as being as severe
or that could have mitigated itor lessened it or something?
Sure, of course, but it doesn'tserve me to be like, oh, two
years ago, I should have donethis.
Two years ago I should havedone that.
It's just like.

(30:44):
This is what's happening.
I'm in this state and, given thecontext of my situation, in my
body which my body no matter howmuch nervous system work I do,
no matter how much traumaprocessing I do, my body is
still less resilient than a lotof people.
I say a lot that my husband ismore resilient on a bad day than
I am on a good day, and he justhas a more resilient nervous

(31:07):
system than I do.
But in the context of mysituation, that makes sense.
So if I were to hit the buy nowbutton on a program that
promises all the things that youjust listed high productivity
and no more procrastination, andlike perfect sleep and weight
loss and like all this stufflike I would have been
overriding my body's innatewisdom to put the brakes on, to

(31:31):
give me an extended period oftime to rest, nourish and
support, and I feel like, aspeople who are buying programs
like this or are being marketedprograms like this, like before
you hit the buy now button, likeask yourself, but is what I'm
feeling appropriate in thecontext of what I've been living

(31:53):
in?
Because if it is, if it isappropriate, then it is anti
your body's wisdom to buy aprogram or a whatever, to air
quotes, get you out of it.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
So one of the things that I hold on Ruby is digging a
hole to China through thecarpet.
Can, can you get yourself cozyon that pillow?
Good job, good job, job.
Yeah, that's a good girl.
So one of the when I talkedabout this on my Instagram page,

(32:35):
um, one of the questions that Igot a couple times is what is
appropriate?
I think people struggle withunderstanding what is an
appropriate response, because Ihear your story and I'm like,
yeah, that's totallyunderstandable, that is totally
appropriate that your bodyneeded to slow down and, in fact
, another way to sort of saythat is your body is asking you

(32:58):
to just be instead of do, and bygoing out and getting a 30-day
somatic exercise program to healyour trauma, you are trying to
then do your way out of a thingthat your body is asking you to
just be in.
But just to circle back to thequestion that I've heard on
Instagram multiple times now iswhat it like?

(33:19):
How can you tell what is anappropriate nervous system
response to what is going on inyour, in the context of your
life?

Speaker 2 (33:27):
I mean, I think it requires knowing something about
the nervous system first.
So you know, I can pretty muchlike rattle off polyvagal theory
in my sleep at this point.
So, knowing what I know aboutthe nervous system and like
people have to look at threethings right, the nervous system
needs capacity, it needsflexibility and it needs

(33:51):
resiliency.
So if you have a million thingson your plate and you feel
scattered and like you're giving, giving, giving, and there's
all this output happening andthere's very little rest,
there's very little downtime tojust be, to experience pleasure,
to sleep extra, to eatnourishing foods, like all of

(34:11):
that, then your nervous systemscapacity, resiliency and
flexibility are going todiminish.
And the way that I the analogythat I like for the nervous
system is that the nervoussystem is like a bucket and it
has to hold the leak that'scoming from the ceiling.
And the leak is life.
Like that leak in the ceilingthat's, that's, uh, you know,

(34:33):
going to flood the house orwhatever, if the, if the roof
doesn't get fixed, is life.
It's all the stressors that youhave to handle throughout your
life.
Um, trauma throughout your life, trauma, childhood, a bad night
of sleep, the loss of your job,like a child's sickness, your
own sickness, whatever thestressor is, that's the leak in
the ceiling and your nervoussystem is the bucket sitting

(34:54):
underneath that leak and it hasto hold all of that stress.
And without the ability toremove some of that stress,
either by trying to patch theleak in the ceiling as much as
you can which nobody canperfectly patch the leak in the
ceiling there's always going tobe a leak in the ceiling as long
as you're alive, right, likestress is always going to happen
.
It's a natural part of life.
But there are some stressorsthat we can unchoose, like

(35:18):
there's some stressors that weare like willingly living with
that we don't have to live with.
And that's what I mean by sortof like patching some of the
leak in the ceiling so that it'snot just flooding down but as
stress fills up the nervoussystem, like you have less
capacity.
So when it starts getting nearthe top and I think it's
important to state that, like,everybody's bucket is a
different size, so some peopleare naturally going to have more

(35:39):
capacity than others but asyour nervous system reaches its
capacity for what it can handle,then we start noticing like
symptoms and signs and that'sthe body being like hey.
Hey, it's becoming a little muchLike I really need you to
change some things.
I really need you to slow down,I really need you to offload
some stuff.
I need you to unchoose somestress.

(36:01):
I need you to figure out thislifestyle thing over here, like
whatever it is, because when youhit capacity and the water
spills out of your bucket, thenthat's when you're in crisis,
that's when you're in burnout,that's when you're in like these
really acute, sometimes, stagesthat you know.
For me, like the biggest episodethat I ever had was a psychotic

(36:21):
or not psychotic, but I endedup in the psychiatric hospital
after a suicide attempt Becausemy nervous system, the bucket,
was just so full I had nocapacity left.
And so I think that, takingyour own individual state into
account and that requires beingaware of your stories, your
history, your patterns, whatyour childhood was like, the

(36:44):
kind of attachment style youhave, like there's all these
different factors to consider,and when you consider those
factors, then you can have moreunderstanding of yourself to be
like oh okay, like I do haveless capacity, so I may not be
able to handle as much stress asthis person over here, and that
can be okay.
That doesn't mean there'ssomething wrong with me because

(37:05):
I'm allowed to be a uniqueindividual.
Um, I don't even remember youroriginal question.
I just started talking aboutbuckets.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
Um, how can somebody tell if they're having an
appropriate nervous system?
Response.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
Oh yeah, so like if you're, if your bucket's full,
if you're at capacity, if you'relike easily overwhelmed right,
like if you're easilyoverwhelmed, that is a huge sign
.
Huge sign like the overwhelmthat you're feeling.
Or the overachieving kid onyour bus or the you know type, a

(37:49):
high strung firstborn daughterkid on your bus like wants to
come along and be like, oh, butI can handle more, it's nothing
Right, but the body is sayingit's telling a different story
and so, um, a lot of the stuffthat I do in my work is helping
people discern the differencebetween the stories of the
voices in their head, and thestuff that I do in my work is
helping people discern thedifference between the stories
of the voices in their head andthe story that their body is
telling, because often the voicein the head is telling a

(38:10):
different story than the bodyand we can always trust the
story that the body is telling.
So when you, I think the shortanswer, what I want to say is
that if you have a deep level oftrust with your body, then it's
pretty easy to understand whenyou're having an appropriate
response.
And if you have a deep level oftrust with your body and you can

(38:32):
be real and honest withyourself.
It's also easy to see whenyou're having an inappropriate
response, which might be like anoverreaction to a trigger that
doesn't deserve that big of areaction.
Yeah, so yeah, I think that'sthe short way of saying that.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah, what about you?
I think I have a simpler way oflooking at it, just because I
know that we as humans holdourselves to most of us hold
ourselves to a much higherstandard than we hold the rest
of the world, and so sometimes Iwill have my clients like list
out all the things that arestressing them out.

(39:09):
Like what are you?
Like?
Just link page right for likefive minutes, all the things
that are stressing you out rightnow, and then I have them read
it back and think about theirbest friend sharing all this
with them.
And isn't it understandable,isn't it appropriate that your

(39:30):
best friend is feeling whateverit is, that they're feeling
Angry, guilty, sad, frustrated,shut down, like way too busy,
like all of that isunderstandable.
And I think that we can do somuch work, even in just like
helping people get to a placewhere they're able to say that's

(39:51):
understandable.
You know, once we can startnormalizing these things that
are happening like inside ourbodies and stop shaming
ourselves for having thesereactions, stop shaming
ourselves for feeling shut down,or, you know, similar to you,
like I feel like I'm just comingout of this like thaw state, or

(40:14):
coming into this thaw stateafter a big freeze because for
the last two years we've beensaving up, you know, we've been
saving every penny that we couldsave so that we could buy our
property and buy our condo, andthen we've been living with
friends and we've been petsitting and so, like you know,
when your space is not your own,it becomes really difficult to

(40:37):
feel creative, to feel like youknow I have capacity to, you
know, hold space for my clients,be, you know, the wife that I
want to be, be the friend that Iwant to be, be the horse mom
and the dog mom and the cat momthat I want to be.
Like you know, there's not a lotof capacity and so you know, I
did this recently, actually,because I found myself in a

(41:00):
state where I was like I justwant to binge watch like
Schitt's Creek all day long andI don't want to do anything else
, like that's the only thingthat's going to make me feel
better.
And so, you know, sat down, um,this is now maybe like two or
three months ago I sat down andit was like at the like climax

(41:20):
and the peak of like beingfrustrated with these dogs that
I was pet sitting and um, justlike sat down and like wrote
down all the things that werestressing me out and, like you
know, read it back to myself andwas like, hey, like if Lindsay
were sitting here in front of metalking to me about all these
things that are stressing herout, wouldn't it make sense that

(41:42):
all she wants to do is bingewatch Schitt's Creek all day
long?

Speaker 2 (41:47):
yeah, yeah, that's a.
That's a much simpler way ofI'm gonna borrow that.
I'm gonna borrow that.
That's a much simpler way oflooking at it.
Um, I love that so much sohopefully our listeners like can
take that tip of like writedown everything in your life
that's stressing you out andthen look at it through the lens
of like if this was your childor if this was your best friend

(42:10):
or someone you really care aboutlike, yeah, wouldn't you be?
like, of course you're stressedout, yeah, of course, yeah, you
know, and your body is justresponding to that stress
because that's what the nervoussystem does.
And like, again, I don't thinkI can emphasize enough how
important it is to not even ifthese states are uncomfortable

(42:33):
like burnout is uncomfortable asfuck, especially for me,
because I don't know why my bodydoes this.
I really, really don't.
But when I am sick, when I'm inburnout, when I have had like
multiple days of not sleepingwell or something like that, for
whatever reason, the thing thatmy body needs the most is like
deep rest and deep sleepno-transcript, and I like I

(43:31):
trust them and I know how todose them for myself and all of
that.
But like I love that.
Like make the list and thenimagine it's your kid or your
best friend or somebody, andthen validating that of you're
stressed out, of course, you'retired and you're overwhelmed,
and so, if it makes sense, right, if you make that list and

(43:53):
you're like, oh, okay, yeah,there is a lot on my plate, it
does make sense, I am, I amstressed out, I am overwhelmed
like if it makes sense, ifyou're like, yes, this is an
appropriate response then.
Does it make sense to buy the30 day program that promises to
get you out of that state?
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
Like so my question then is what would make sense in
that state?
Like what would you advisesomebody to do once they've made
the list?
Advise somebody to do oncethey've made the list and
they're like okay, sweet, like Ican understand and I can
validate that, like this is likean understanding and
appropriate response, like whatcan you offer to help people

(44:34):
integrate and digest and movethrough those experiences?

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Okay, so this brings up something that I did with a
client several years ago one ofmy first clients ever, actually.
She was experiencing this and Idid have her make a list, which
is so interesting.
I did have her make a list ofall of her responsibilities,
like everything that you'reresponsible for.
So she was like a stay-at-homemom.

(44:58):
She had a daughter that she hadto drive the daughter.
The daughter went to a privateschool that was like 30 minutes
away or something.
So she was like driving thedaughter 30 minutes to school
and then driving 30 minutes home, and then going back and
driving 30 minutes to pick herup from school and then drive.
So she was in the car commutingthe daughter for two hours a
day.
She also was like trying tostart her own business because
she wanted to feel like she wascontributing to the family's

(45:19):
income.
She also had some health issuesthat she was working on.
She also had some health issuesthat she was working on.
She also had some relationshipdifficulties in her marriage
with her husband.
So she had all of these thingsand I was like I want you to
make a list of everything thatyou're responsible for.
And what she ended up doing wasa really creative thing.
She used Post-it notes and shecolor coded the Post-it notes

(45:40):
because I said I want you tonote which ones of these are
negotiable, which ones arenon-negotiable, which ones can
you delegate and which ones youhave to take on for yourself.
And so when she color coded itthe like non-negotiable list she
had more post-its for that thanany other category, or, I'm
sorry, the negotiable ones, likethe ones that could be

(46:00):
delegated out, the ones that shecould not do, like she can let
them go, things like that, andthat really helped to give her
that visual of like.
Not only, of course, I'moverwhelmed, but also I have the
responsibility to myself tomake the choice to offload as
much of the stress as I possiblycan.

(46:21):
So for myself and for my clientswhen they're like this, I
possibly can so for myself andfor my clients.
When they're like this, I'mlike what can we get rid of?

Speaker 1 (46:28):
What can we say no to ?
What can go away?

Speaker 2 (46:31):
And like for my own self, like I pulled way back, I
wasn't taking on new clients, Iwasn't creating anything new.
No new workshops, no newprograms, no new.
Nothing Like my creativity wasshut off.
I was saying no to socialengagements because I knew that
being home and going to bed at acertain time was going to be
more supportive.
Um, I've said no to all alcoholin the past few months and I'm

(46:55):
not I've never been a bigdrinker, anyway, it doesn't
agree with me but every once ina while I like to have a
cocktail.
Um, I love a good margarita,but, like I knew innately that
during this time of stress,alcohol is an additional
stressor.
Yeah, even if it tastes good,even if I like the experience,
even if the buzz feels nice,like whatever, I still know that

(47:15):
that is a physiologicalstressor on my body.
That is optional.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Like.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
I can say no to that.
Um, I I get really like doubleddown on like eating clean food
because I know that that's goingto be really supportive for me.
And I'm not coming at it fromlike a restrictive, healing diet
kind of energy.
It's just more of like thereare certain foods that
objectively support the body andcertain foods that objectively
do not support the body, and mybody needs a lot of support.

(47:41):
So I don't want to have thestressor of a bunch of processed
crap in my diet or a bunch ofrestaurant food or you know
whatever.
So I start looking at it oflike where can we pull out
stress?
Like where can we pull that out?
What can we offload?
What can we delegate?
What can we unchoose?
Right, what about you?
Where do you start?

Speaker 1 (48:02):
I think the pruning is important.
Typically, that's where I needsupport, is like like you've got
too many things on your on yourboard, kat, like your to do
list is quite impressive andlike what needs to be taken off
the list is is oftentimes areally good place to start.
I think that there's pruningand then nourishment, like I

(48:26):
think of the two categories ofwhat it is that we need in these
moments, and you know, I lovemy inner circle, like Lindsay's
part of my inner circle.
I also have Andre, and I've gotChristina, and you know these
are the people that I like leanon when I need both help with
the pruning and the nourishment,to be honest, because

(48:50):
oftentimes when we're in thatstate, we need both.
I say the nourishment piecebecause sometimes I get clients
who are like I have so littleresponsibilities and I don't
know why I'm struggling withthis, and then I have to start
wondering about okay, so whereare you feeling depleted, you

(49:12):
know?
And so then, in order to helpthem move into a state where
they can mobilize in a healthyway I don't want to send them
out without enough gas in theirtank, right?
And so it's about like how canwe create this like nourishing
space so that we can, you know,set you up for success.
And oftentimes I am asking themto like look within their own

(49:37):
sort of life circle and beinglike okay, so who are your
co-regulatory partners?
You know, I think that that's areally, really big one and an
important one to name, becausewhen we're in these states, we
have a tendency to isolateourselves, we have a tendency to
hermit ourselves, we have atendency to think I've got to
just do this by ourself and bymyself.
It's a fucking, I'm going tosay it's a disease of the modern

(50:00):
culture that we are soindependent culture, that we are
so independent.
And when we lean into the factthat our nervous systems need
other nervous systems,absolutely, and that's not a
thing that's wrong about you,like, that's not a thing that is
bad about you, that's notsomething that we need to fix

(50:20):
about you.
Like, I love that.
One of the like cues between meand my husband right now is
like can I borrow your nervoussystem for a moment?
And then I get to just like,like melt into his big man body
and like, just breathe right.
Um, I'm also feeling into thenervous system of my land lately

(50:43):
, my friend Shannon Ban, who ismy horse trainer, like she talks
about the nervous system of theland and how that is such a
fundamental part of one of thebodies that she's in interaction
with every single day.
And it's the same for me islike my land has a nervous
system that is incrediblyforgiving, incredibly patient,

(51:07):
incredibly wise.
And so, in these moments whereI don't feel nourished, the
reason why I spend so much timeon my land is because I just
just by being out there justdoing manual I'm a witty person
and so I like, I need the manuallabor to help me stay in

(51:27):
balance.
It's nourishing for me actuallyto like move wood around and
move horse poo around and like,like, create things on the
property.
Um, but, like, like, I thinkthat there's something about
pruning and nourishment, pruningand nourishment, pruning and
nourishment that is, um, isreally, really important in
those, in those times.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for touching on thenourishment piece.
Um, I totally agree with youand I'm going to also add like,
uh, I think this is both pruningand nourishment actually is.
Um, you know, whenever I was inin the throes of the burnout,
um, I was resting a lot, like Iwas spending a lot of time in

(52:10):
bed.
I was, the weather wasn't warm,so I wasn't going outside a
whole lot, and I know that thathad something to do with it.
Like, I think it went on longerbecause I don't like being
outside in the cold, like it'sjust, it doesn't feel great for
me.
Um, laying on a blanket in thegrass and the sun is a fuck, yes
, but, like you know,snowshoeing through the woods is

(52:31):
a fuck, no, like I don't likeit.
So, but, yes, being outside,being in the mycelium of my own
land, in the woods, talking totrees, talking to plants, like
that is absolutely nourishingfor me too.
Trees, talking to plants, likethat is absolutely nourishing
for me too.
But something else that Ilearned was such a hard lesson
too, and it took me having to goto Canada to a practitioner

(52:52):
that I work with Her name isKirby Crittle to realize that a
huge part of my burnout was thatmy energetic hygiene had not
been as great as it should havebeen.
Um, meaning, like as a spaceholder, like there's a lot of
energetic transfer that happensbetween clients and me, and I

(53:15):
don't just hold space forindividuals, I also hold space
for groups, and so there's a lotof energy in groups as well.
There's a lot of emotionalexperiences.
Emotionsotions are energy, andso a lot of my burnout, despite
the fact that I was staying inbed more, I was resting more, I
was eating a lot of nourishingfoods, I was avoiding alcohol, I
was delegating things, I wassaying no to things, but I still

(53:36):
wasn't feeling better.
And when I went to see her shewas like your energy looks like
it's hanging off of you, like adrunk person who can't stand up,
and I was like, well, that'sexactly how I feel, but I've had
no alcohol.
And so we did a bunch ofenergetic clearing and like got
my energy back up to where itwas, feeling bright and shiny

(53:59):
again, and that helped a lot too.
So I think like ever since thenI've been really diligent about
like after client sessions,like I have a selenite wand and
I go over my whole body with aselenite wand or like I have a
spray like Apollo Santo spray,and I'll like spray it around me
with the intention that, likeit's clearing everything out of

(54:19):
my field that doesn't belong tome.
So that is both pruning andnourishing and something that,
yeah, I had to learn the hardway.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Thanks for sharing that.
I think that to me that reallyspeaks to so many of us as space
holders.
Like this work is hard.
Like can we just fuckingacknowledge that?

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Yeah, you mean it's not as easy as a 30-day somatic
workout program.
Wait what?

Speaker 1 (54:52):
I know it takes.
It takes a lot to hold spacefor people and so if you're
listening to this and you're aspace holder, like a, I love
that.
This is the work that I do, youknow, and it's incredibly
draining.
Both can be true.
It doesn't mean that I'm notgrateful for my clients.

(55:12):
It doesn't mean that I needthem to be less you know
themselves or be smaller, likeno.
I want my clients to all showup as themselves, with all the
feelings and all the emotionsand all that stuff, because
there's not a lot of placeswhere people feel like they are
safe enough to do that.
And as a space holder, I haveto take responsibility for, you

(55:35):
know, holding myself and pruningand nourishing and you know all
the.
I don't have as many rituals asyou do.
For me, it really just comesdown to like being on the land
and farming, Like it's myresponsibility to do all of that
so that I can hold space.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Totally.
I think the difference betweenus is you're a mani gen and I'm
a projector.
So, like I'm not capable ofregenerating my own energy, so I
need like rituals and differentpractices.
Like I've got fucking crystalsall over the place and you know
like and I've even gotten to thepoint of like, when a client is
having like a big energeticrelease, like I stay totally

(56:18):
present.
I'm not absent in any way, butI've learned to kind of imagine
that there's like a glass windowbetween the two of us, that's
just like an energetic boundarywhere it's like I'm fully here
to witness and hold space forthis, but I'm not taking on any
of it as my own and so just likevisualizing that and having the

(56:39):
intention that that's there,I've noticed just in the last
few weeks has like made a hugedifference in me not feeling
totally wiped out at the end ofthe day or you know, like going
to david and being like fuck, Ihad some hard clients today like
I'm not doing that you know, um.
so for me the energetic hygienehas been a really a big deal and

(57:01):
a big help, and it's likepruning others energy off of me
and that is also nourishing meso that I'm a better space
holder.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Yeah, yeah, and we talk about functional freeze.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, yes, I'm even going topull up my Instagram post that I
made about it.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
Ooh, maybe that's a good jumping off point then.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Yeah, I'll pull up my Instagram post about it.
Um, when did I make that?
Oh, here we go.
We need to talk aboutfunctional freeze.
Um, so I said I've reflected alot on this term lately as I
find myself in what many wouldcall a functional freeze.
I want to focus specifically onthe functional part of this

(57:48):
term.
Our culture views functionalityas good.
It's good if we can functionthrough difficulty, sickness,
grief, anxiety, etc.
I dare say we'd call it a flexto be able to be functional
during hard times.
But is it really?
I feel awful, but look at me,I'm still functioning.

(58:09):
Is this a flex?
Or is it extractive capitalismthat demands we keep functioning
, pushing, forcing, despite ourbody's wisdom, to retreat, slow
down and rest?
The word functional, whenapplied to the freeze state,
does not sit well with me.
It feels like a young, wounded,masculine pushing energy.
Yet in freeze, our bodies areasking us to embody more of a

(58:30):
yin, receiving slow, restfulenergy.
There are certainly plenty ofpractitioners marketing shiny
programs that promise to get youout of functional freeze.
Without discernment and a deepunderstanding of the body, it's
so easy to hit the buy nowbutton.
What if these programs andpromises aren't honoring your
body's natural rhythm to slowdown, but are instead forcing

(58:50):
you to override that wisdom.
What if your body's sensationsand symptoms of what is labeled
functional freeze are actuallybegging you to stop forcing
yourself to function and allowthe slowness, the rest, the
contraction?
If you trusted this cycle, wouldyou keep trying to function as
usual?
Would you buy a program thatpromised to get you out of it?
Could you instead surrender tothe freeze Anything, any program

(59:13):
, structure, workplace,lifestyle, person or
practitioner that isn't firsthonoring the state of your
nervous system and asking ifyour freeze is an appropriate
response within the context ofyour experience, is extracting
your life force for theirbenefit?
I propose we remove the wordfunctional from the freeze state
.
I propose that we say no toextracting from ourselves and

(59:34):
allowing ourselves to beextracted from in the name of
functionality.
Sure, you may be functioning,but at what cost?
And can you afford to pay thatcost?

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Love it.
Functional freeze.
I was going to try to read offsome of the signs and symptoms
that some of these accounts aresaying.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
Oh yes, the result of a functional freeze.

Speaker 1 (59:59):
You're exhausted but you stay up late.
You appear motivated, butyou're emotionally hanging on by
a thread.
You're successful but feelempty inside.
You can make a vet appointmentfor your dog but haven't been to
a doctor in years.
You brush your teeth in themorning but rarely at night.
You respond to messages fromcoworkers but not from friends.
You smile in public but fallapart at night.

(01:00:21):
You want to eat healthy, butorder delivery every night.
You're high, achieving, butemotionally numb.
You're social at work butturned on every invite from
friends.
You show up to events but neverfeel genuinely present.
You binge tv shows but have noidea what's really happening.
You can get your energy back andget out of functional freeze by
healing your nervous system.
And then, of course, there's aa link to a somatic the 30 day

(01:00:46):
somatic exercise program.
Truly, um, I think that I agreewith everything that you just
said, and I think in particularit's that piece around.
We are trying to young our waythrough something that our body
is trying to get in our waythrough, and when we do that,
we're giving our body and ouremotions and our souls and our

(01:01:06):
spirits and all the things likeinside out.
We're giving ourselves veryconflicting information, and
something that I'm learning fromworking with horses is when
we're in a state of confusion,when we're in a state where

(01:01:26):
there's overwhelm and perhapsthere's some shutdown happening,
there's some freeze happening,there's some flight happening,
whatever it is that your nervoussystem state is in, if you give
it two conflicting pieces ofinformation like that does not
help.
What helps is when you can givethat body one incredibly clear

(01:01:47):
message.
And for our bodies, when we'rein that functional freeze, again
it's like I think you've talkedabout anxiety as having the,
you know, gas and brakes beingstepped on at the same time.
I feel like it's the same thing.
And when your body is actuallyasking for a yin state, when

(01:02:10):
it's asking for like hey, thatwas kind of a scary thing and I
might need to digest that, orI've been in this state of
unhappiness in my life andfeeling disconnected from my
life for a while, and I need toactually pause and slow down and
take assessment of what's goingon.
And you're trying to young yourway through it like there's no

(01:02:32):
possible, like you are justsetting yourself up for failure.
Um, I think another thing thatI struggle with with these
programs is that you know wesort of talked about how there's
no support on the other end.
Like the reality is that ourbodies really do hang on to a
lot of things.
That is true.
And a lot of these practices.
I see them lots of hip openers,lots of stuff, like with pelvic

(01:02:58):
floor exercises and as anethical practitioner, if I am
going to ask somebody to getinto their hips because I don't
know what's in there, like I'veworked with women my entire
career.
I've worked with women as afertility acupuncturist.
I've worked with women, youknow, just as a generalist

(01:03:19):
acupuncturist.
Like there are times when weput things into our hips because
it's too scary to access andprocess right now.
And when you ask somebody to getinto their hips, you have to be
prepared as a space holder.
We don't know what's in there.
Like we are opening up thisdeep cavern without

(01:03:41):
understanding on a consciouslevel what they packed away.
And so the like mama bear partof me that gets really upset at
these.
You know practitioners who areare, um, really pushing these
programs is like you don't knowwhat you just opened up.
Yeah, you know, like there canbe some real trauma in there.

(01:04:04):
And if you're not traumainformed and you're not offering
support and you're just, youknow, sending people a video and
then being like you figure yourshit out by yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
You're actually going to do more harm for some of the
people who are accessing thatvideo yeah, I 100 could not
agree more and I actually have apersonal experience with this
very thing.
So four years ago my husbandlike the details of this are not
important, but the way thatit's stored in my body is what's

(01:04:36):
important.
So my husband kind of gave mean ultimatum four years ago and
it was like an earthquake in mynervous system.
It was like an earthquake like9.0 on the Richter scale,
earthquake in my nervous system,and ever since that time I've

(01:04:56):
had chronic pain in my hips andlow back my psoas muscle, my hip
flexor, my iliacus muscle, silow back.
Just a lot of shit happening inmy hips and in my pelvis.
But specifically, one reallyinteresting thing that would
happen is if I was receivingenergy work or if I was getting

(01:05:21):
a massage or doing some type ofmovement that activated it.
I had this spot in the leftside of my pelvis that was deep,
deep, deep in my pelvis and theonly way that I know how to
describe it was like a buzzingball of yarn.
It was like a very irritated,annoyed kind of feeling and I

(01:05:45):
saw it as like a buzzing ball ofyarn in my pelvis and sometimes
I would have to tell my massagelike he would be working on my
shoulders and it would light upin my pelvis.
He would be working on the backof my head and it would light
up in my pelvis and I'd be likeyou have to move because I can't
stand this feeling.
It wasn't painful, it was justthe most annoying feeling ever.

(01:06:05):
And when I went to Kirby she's avery gifted energy worker,
she's also a holistic pelviccare body worker and she did a
pelvic session with me and shefound literally in my tissues,
in my left obturator internusmuscle, she found the spot where
the buzzing ball of yarn is andnobody had ever been able to
reach it before.

(01:06:26):
And the stories and the traumathat were contained in that ball
of yarn, hmm, if that hadopened up and I had been by
myself, I would not have knownwhat to do with it.
Yeah, even as like a traumainformed, like nervous system

(01:06:48):
worker myself, like the storiesand the pain and the abandonment
and the resentment that was inthat spot in my pelvis was huge.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
And I can't imagine doing a hip opener exercise or
something like that that mightactivate that and then not
knowing what to do with it, Likeso yes, what you're saying is
true, Like that would have beenunethical for someone to open
that can of worms andessentially just like leave me

(01:07:25):
alone with it, not knowing whatto do with it.
So like that personally strikesa chord in me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
I mean, I think it gets even worse than that,
because when I go through thatthread of that reel that I just
read out loud to you, I see somany comments from people saying
like, hey, like I did the 30day thing and I still feel some
of my symptoms.
Or I did the 30 day thing andthere's something coming up for
me, and this person's responseis, oh, you need to buy part two

(01:08:04):
.
Yeah, part two is the thingthat's going to heal you, yeah,
and so like we have to be like,if you're going to say that
you're doing trauma work, partof that, trauma work needs to be
support 100%.

(01:08:24):
Otherwise, you are openingpeople up in unethical ways and
leaving them in a situation thatthey can't navigate themselves,
or might not have the tools tonavigate themselves, or might
not have the community tonavigate themselves.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
And exactly what you're talking about.
You know, there's nothing wrongwith your body hanging onto
that.
Sorry, you had a delay for asecond, so I was talking over
you.
That's okay.
Continue what you're saying,please.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
I was going to say that, like.
So, there was nothing wrongwith your body for hanging onto
that story, right, that'sunderstandable.
There was nothing wrong withyour body saying I'm not ready
to process this right now Alsounderstandable.
There was nothing wrong withyou holding a boundary with your

(01:09:15):
massage therapist and beinglike hey, like you have to get
off of my shoulder because thatbuzzing sensation is there and I
can't really like it.
It's not painful, but like Idon't want to, yeah, I can't.
And being able to surrender inthe presence of somebody who is
a skilled space holder ismedicine.
And when we I think you use theword mechanicalized or

(01:09:36):
something like that, like whenwe, I think you used the word
mechanicalized or something likethat, like when we, like make
these tools mechanical, yeah, weare not honoring the depth of
the work that can happen inthese spaces.
We're not honoring thetradition that comes from

(01:09:58):
working with nervous systems andemotions.
We are saying that we are nodifferent from a car or a
machine and you just need thisthing to fix you.
And that is one of the mostharmful stories that's come out
of the last 50 years of medicine.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more years of medicine.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And this is why my, my program,feel without fear will never be
packaged up as prerecordedvideos and put out into the
world as like.
Here's the self-paced coursethat you can take because, yeah,
if I packaged it that way,would it be more affordable?
Sure, I could sell it for, youknow, three, 99 instead of.

(01:10:38):
I could sell it for, you know,$3.99 instead of $8.88, you know
like sure.
But it would be so irresponsibleof me to package that up, to
cheapen it and put it out aslike a mass produced you know,
made in China product that'sgoing to go on the shelf at
Walmart.
Like I can't do that, to notonly to feel without fear as an

(01:10:58):
entity in and of itself, likeit's consciousness, like won't
allow me to do that, but as aperson with ethics, I can't do
that because it is such apowerful program that unlocks so
much and people need to be heldin a I mean obviously over zoom
or whatever isn't a physicalholding, but they need at least

(01:11:20):
the energetic holding and theperson on the other side to
validate and hold space for thatexperience and to just turn
people loose for the sake ofmaking more money, because, yeah
, that would make my life easier.
I could make more money thatway, right.
But I value people's nervoussystems and people's sovereignty

(01:11:40):
and their safety over packagingsomething up and cheapening,
you know, slashing the price tomake it mass available, like
because the medicine's toostrong for it to be administered
without supervision.
You know what I'm saying.
Like, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
So, jumping off of that, how can we as
practitioners have discernmentin how we do nervous system work
, how we market nervous systemwork, how we administer nervous

(01:12:19):
system work?
I know that's kind of a bigquestion.
It is a big question.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
But that's a really big question.
I'm curious about myself and mymotives and my intentions
whenever I'm writing or sharinganything about something that
I'm going to make money off of.
Like to be very transparent,that I'm not trying to fix you,
I'm not going to make any kindof guarantees or promises
because we don't have controlover that, to honor the
sovereignty of each person.
That's why, like when I market,feel Without Fear, like I yeah,

(01:13:03):
I can tell you a bullet pointlist of, like what I teach in
the workshops, but I can't tellyou how that's going to land in
your body, and like whattransformations may or may not
take place.
But the way that I honor peoplein that, as I say, like if you
feel a pulling, like if you feelthat, then you can trust that
and if you don't feel that, thenit's not for you and that's

(01:13:26):
okay.
Is there a natural curiosity?
Is there desire there?
Right, like not fear not.
Oh, fuck this better, fix me.
But like, ooh, this feels juicy, I want to know more.
You know, like discerning thedifference between those two
energies in your body is so, so,so important.
Um, and it's very difficult todo that when people use pain

(01:13:47):
point marketing, when they giveyou a list of all these symptoms
and you can check all of themoff, and then they're like
here's my program.
Like it's very easy to be like,oh, this is what I need.
This is going to solve allthese problems for me.
I have to put myself in checkbecause I know I can make a shit
ton of money off of peopledoing that kind of marketing,
but it feels so gross in mysystem to do that that like I

(01:14:12):
can't like.
It just feels gross to do that,and so I have to be very, very
aware of what I feel in my bodywhen I'm putting something out
there.
And so they're like honoringthe other person's sovereignty
starts with me honoring my ownand being in a space of like.
It is counter to myauthenticity to market this in a

(01:14:35):
way that I would not want to bemarketed to myself.
It is not congruent with what Ibelieve about the nervous
system to market this thing in away that doesn't honor the
nervous system and thatmechanizes it.
So it's like it's about beingdeeply rooted in my own
authenticity and in my ownvalues and being regulated in my

(01:14:57):
nervous system, which is why Ihold the boundary of not posting
anything when I'm indysregulation about it, which
you do too it's that same thing,because energy doesn't lie,
right?
Energy fucking does not lie,and even if somebody can't name
with words why they're turnedoff by something or why they're

(01:15:17):
like oh, that's not for me, evenif they can't name it with
words, it's because it's in theenergy, and that energy comes
through.
Whether it's on a website,whether it's on Instagram
stories, a video, a post,podcast like that, energy is
always there and it doesn't lie.
Even if people can't name it asthat, it still doesn't lie, and
so yeah.
I have to be rooted in my ownauthenticity, in my own values,

(01:15:40):
in my own nervous system, andthat requires that I honor the
sovereignty, the authenticity,the values and the nervous
systems of everyone else.
Yeah, that's my answer to that.
What's yours?

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
I think, very similar , I think for me.
I've had to have a lot offorgiveness around the different
stages of my own ways ofrunning business.
Oh, of course, we are always onthis evolutionary path and I
have used pain point marketingbecause that's what I was taught

(01:16:13):
.
I have used a lot of theseunethical business practices
that I speak out against nowbecause that's what I was taught
and I didn't know any different.
And the more and more I donervous system work, the more I
deepen into my own sort of Idon't even know what kind of
practice to call it, it's justlike deepening into becoming

(01:16:35):
more me.
I guess I can't unsee the waysin which these things are done.
You know, kind of like I wassaying earlier, like I can kind
of see the wizard behind thescreen now, and so I have a lot
of forgiveness.
And so if you have used thesepain point like I, I get it Like

(01:16:56):
I've been there, like I don'twant somebody to like listen to
this and be like oh my gosh,like I'm doing everything wrong,
like you are doing things tothe best of your ability at this
stage of where you're at rightnow and the fact that you're
listening to this is aninvitation to like deepen into
that practice, right?

(01:17:16):
So I think forgiveness forwhere we've all been.
Um, when it comes to marketing,an easy way for me to discern
if I am rooted and grounded inwhat I'm saying is if I imagine

(01:17:37):
I think that a lot of, uh,business coaches are like
imagine your ideal clientsitting in front of you.
What would you say to them?
Right, I don't just imagine myideal client, I imagine the
wisest part of my ideal clientand what would I say to them?
Because I don't want to bemarketing to somebody's like

(01:18:01):
most vulnerable tender, likeimposter syndrome part of them.
I want to be marketing to theperson that is like that, like
wise little kernel that's insidethat we all have, and I want to
be speaking to that part, whichmeans that I'm actually like
niching down pretty fucking hard, because that part is for many

(01:18:25):
of us.
It's like buried under allthese different layers of these
tantruming little kids and these, you know, imposter parts and
the parts that feel insecure andthe parts that don't feel like
they're valued.
And so if I am speaking to thatpart, I know that my marketing
is ethical, because I'm notspeaking to pain, I'm speaking

(01:18:46):
to understanding.
Um, and then, very similar toyou, I came to the same sort of
conclusion with with my ownprogram, business Southwest
mentorship that I cannot besharing this as like
prerecrecorded videos.
I used to show them aspre-recorded videos and now I
don't.
Um, because exactly what yousaid, like we're opening stuff

(01:19:08):
up and um and leaving people tosort of deal with it on their
own, like I.
I, my program wasn't a fullyself-led program, it was like
video curriculum and you come ongroup coaching calls, but what
I found is that a lot of peopleget through the first module and
then they kind of get stuck andthen they aren't being given

(01:19:32):
the like, right tools to movethemselves forward, to mobilize
in healthy ways.
And so if that's the case, Ineed to take responsibility for
my own program and change thatand shift that, because there's
so much more juice that comes inthe next four modules and if
people are getting stuck in thefirst module like, that's not

(01:19:54):
doing them a service either.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
Yeah.
And when people get stuck inthe first module, like without
awareness of their story aroundthat and their nervous system
and how that's being processedin their body, like I can
imagine that that creates kindof a resistance in people to
continue with modules two, three, four and five, because they're
like so stuck on one that theylike don't even know how to

(01:20:17):
continue without maybe feelingbehind or you know something
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:22):
Yeah, yeah.
How about as clients?
How can we have discernment asclients when we are making
decisions about programs andcourses that we want to buy?
You know, some of the thingsthat just show up on our
Instagram feed, Even just likefollowing people.

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
My first and probably only answer is to be in your
body.
When you are following thesepeople, consuming this content,
choosing a program or a coach ora course or something like that
is like be in your body andnotice how your nervous system
is responding.
Like, as you scroll throughthis person's videos, how's your

(01:21:09):
nervous system responding asyou're reading the copy on their
sales page for that course, howis your body responding?
And if your response in yourbody is one of fear, anxiety,
contraction, wanting to fixyourself, feeling like
whatever's happening with you ispathological in some way and

(01:21:31):
like it's a problem that needsto be solved?
Like I'm not saying don't hitthe buy now button or don't
follow them, but like let thatbe something that you notice and
let that inform your next step.
Um, you know I have a video onmy Instagram that's.

(01:21:52):
Like you know, a simpleexercise is to go through
everyone that you follow onsocial media, one account at a
time, and notice how you feel inyour body whenever you see
their stuff.
And if it brings upunworthiness, comparison,
jealousy, uh, dysregulation,disappointment, your fight

(01:22:14):
response because you thinkthey're wrong and you want to
tell them what you think isright or, like you know,
whatever that brings up for you,um, is that authentically
nourishing?
You right, and I and I alsothink that I guess maybe an
addendum to this, because Ithink it is related is like
discerning the differencebetween what's nourishing and

(01:22:36):
what's just stuff like.
What's just stuff, like what'sjust filling the void, what's
taking up the space but is empty.
You know it's not nourishing toyou, it's not supportive to you
, it's just something you'reconsuming.
You know it's like junk food onsocial media versus like really
nourishing content that isactually supportive, that honors

(01:22:57):
you as a whole person, in yoursovereignty and in your
authenticity, that welcomes yourexpression and like doesn't
shame you for that or whatever.
Like just being really in tunewith your body.
I mean, I have over 90,000followers and I follow fewer
than 40 people like that's onpurpose.
You know and sure there's anelement of like.
I don't want to spend tons oftime on social media so I follow

(01:23:20):
fewer people.
But there's also an element oflike.
Once I follow these nourishingpeople, the desire to follow
fluff and unfulfilling stuff isjust not there.
It's like once you've tasted areally amazing grass-fed steak
with grass-fed butter, likegetting a steak from a fast food
restaurant is like you're like.

(01:23:41):
No, why would I do that?

Speaker 1 (01:23:43):
You know, yeah.
Yeah, what about you?
I think it's very similar likeadvice to be in your body and,
and you know, check in and seehow your body feels when you're
consuming their content.
I'll also put in a littleasterisk that whatever you're

(01:24:04):
feeling is designed that way.
So if you are feeling FOMO,scarcity, comparison, all those
things, it is designed.
Their content is specificallydesigned to make you feel that
way, because that is whattraditional pain point marketing
teaches people how to do.
They might not fully be awareof it, but if they're using the

(01:24:26):
same templates that I was taught, if they're using the same
strategies that I was taught, itis absolutely by design.
Also, it's by design when youread someone's content or you're
going through their content andyou feel understood and like,
oh my gosh, like that's exactlywhat I need to hear today, and

(01:24:47):
you know how can this person beinside my brain and this person
makes me feel safe and thisperson makes me feel nourished,
like also know that that is bydesign and it takes conscious
effort to create content likethat.
Yeah, and so like I think a.
I totally agree with you injust choosing who you follow.

(01:25:09):
I also have a very uh, lowfollower count.
Um, because the people that Ifollow are essentially like my
friends, people who have been onmy podcast, and like my clients
, because I want to see whatthey're doing, and so I think I
follow like 140 people right now.
And I will say, though, that Ihave two people that I follow

(01:25:32):
very intentionally, and this isbecause I'm a mani-gen.
My strategy is to respond, andso there's two ethical business
people I'm going to put ethicsin in a quotation marks that I
follow off and on depending onthe nervous system state that

(01:25:52):
I'm in right now, because I seetheir stuff and I'm like, ooh,
that's wrong and I want torespond.
I see their stuff and I'm like,oh, that's wrong, and I want to
respond, and they say thatthey're ethical, and then I look
at their actions behind theirwords and I'm like how is that
ethical?
And so, sometimes, my contentis responding to something that

(01:26:17):
feels really triggering to me,but that is because it's like
one of the things that works formy nervous system and for my
human design type, because I getkind of fired up when I'm like
don't, don't do that.
Yeah, yeah, I think that'sgreat, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:34):
Right, yeah, I think that's great.

Speaker 1 (01:26:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
Right.
And again, like for someone whois in a different nervous
system state than you, like I'vehad people tell me that they
purposefully follow people whotrigger them and I'm like okay,
that's fine.
Like good for you, you knowgreat, that seems expansive.
And like if that gives you anopportunity to be curious and be

(01:26:58):
faced with your triggers andlike work them out in a safe way
, cause you have a distance fromthis person, you don't know
them personally, whatever.
Like awesome, Um, but alsowhenever your leak in your
ceiling is like crazy you know,there's a lot coming in, you
don't have a lot of capacity.
Maybe that's not the time tofollow people who trigger you on
purpose, you know.

(01:27:19):
So like allowing yourself to befluid with that and not rigid
in any way is also reallyimportant.

Speaker 1 (01:27:26):
Yeah, yeah, agreed.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
Yeah, yeah, so I shared with you the other day
and you said you had a longerresponse and then you never
texted me back.
But I shared with you aboutthat Instagram conversation that
I had with someone, so I had anInstagram conversation with a
projector.
She messaged me and she's likeI'm a projector, you're a
projector, oh my gosh.
And then she starts telling meabout this coach that she's been
working with.
And the more she's telling meabout this coach, I'm like red

(01:27:52):
flag, red flag, red flag, redflag.
But I tried to stay curious andI tried to be like well, how do
you feel about that?
And I was driving in the car.
Normally I don't have the timeto have these long conversations
in the DMS, but David wasdriving, I was writing in the
car, so I had time to be on myphone and it was fine.
But we had this this pretty,you know, 20 minute conversation
probably.

(01:28:13):
And I found out some stuffabout this coach that I was like
Jesus, like.
So one of the things was isthis coach was telling this
woman not to put her pricesanywhere publicly but to tell
people the price when they wereon the discovery call?
And so she was like that'sinitially why she reached out.

(01:28:34):
She was like I noticed that youhave your prices everywhere.
My coach has told me not todisclose my prices until I'm on
the discovery call.
Can you tell me why you postyour prices?
And I was like yeah, becauseI'm going to be transparent
about that, because I know thatmoney is a huge factor in
people's decision-making and Idon't want to keep the price

(01:28:55):
hidden behind a discovery call.
And then people get reallyexcited to work with me and they
feel really aligned and itfeels great for them and they're
so looking forward to it.
And then I drop this number onthem.
That like makes them panic orlike makes them have this huge
wave of disappointment or griefor hopelessness or whatever.
Like I just want to betransparent about it, you know

(01:29:15):
from the get-go, because if theycan't afford it, they're not
going to schedule a discoverycall with me.
So like they're saving time,I'm saving time, it's not a fit
whatever.
And I was like and also I'm notashamed of my prices Like
there's no reason for me to hidethem because I don't feel
ashamed of them.
Like I believe that that theyare reflective of the value that

(01:29:36):
I offer and the space that Ihold and certainly I've been
flexible about that with peopleand that feels good too.
But like there's no reason forme to hide it because I'm not
ashamed of it.
Like it's not a secret that Ifeel like I need to keep.
And she was just like, oh mygosh, I never thought of it that
way.
And I was like, well, why didyour coach tell you not to put
the prices and to wait until thediscovery call?

(01:29:56):
And she said that her coach'sresponse was one, that's how she
was taught in marketing class.
And then two, because by thetime people get on the call with
her and she tells them theprice, they already like her so
much and want to work with herthat the price doesn't matter.
And I was like, or people arelike in people pleasing and

(01:30:20):
fawning states and they don'tknow how to say no, I can't
afford that to her face on thecall.
So then they people please tothe tune of several thousand
dollars because they don't knowhow to say no to someone's face.
They're not resourced in thatway.
And she was like, oh my gosh,I've done that exact thing.
I have fond for thousands ofdollars with coaches before.

(01:30:42):
So it just started thisinteresting conversation.
And then she shared more that,like this coach does air quotes,
nervous system work, and I waslike, oh interesting, she goes.
Well, I think the kind ofnervous system she does, nervous
system work she does, isdifferent from what you do, and
I was like, well, what does shedo?
She was like, um, like infraredlights and plunging your face
in ice cold water, and I waslike, okay, well, the nervous

(01:31:03):
system is way more complex thanthat.
So we just had this reallyinteresting exchange that let me
know how freaking common it isfor practitioners like this to
be around with the whole likehiding the price, and they're
just regurgitating what theylearned in their marketing

(01:31:24):
course and they're not actuallytrauma-informed, even if they
say they are and like all that.
So I am curious on your feedbackabout that, because we may have
some practitioners and orclients listening who've had
that experience yeah, well, I'vehad that direct experience and
I've asked.

Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
It's so funny because one of the two practitioners
that I was telling you aboutthat I follow sometimes when my
nervous system feels regulatedenough to handle the minor
triggers that come through.
So one of them is a malenervous system coach and I
signed up for signed up for somesort of like raffle and won

(01:32:04):
like a group coaching call withhim and was in this like group
coaching call with, like I think, 25 other people.
And my question was actuallythis exact question is I feel
weird about not posting myprices on my page when you know
for all my offers?
And his response was well, ifsomebody is triggered by your

(01:32:33):
price, then you have anopportunity in that moment to
coach them on a sales call, andso why would you not take that
opportunity?
And for me, I list my pricesfor exactly the same reasons
that you list your prices, whichis transparency.
I, like I'm a fairly busy womanand I want to make sure that,

(01:32:55):
like, if I'm hopping on aconnection call with somebody,
it's more about fit and lessabout like, can you afford my
work, um, and and so you know,like, listening to him, I was
kind the like get a yes by theend of the sales call.

(01:33:25):
It feels like very convincingenergy.
It feels like this persondidn't actually jump on a call
with me to be coached on theirmoney ones, and so that's not
the conversation that was set up.
Like, I call my sales callsconnection calls for a reason
the connection calls there sothat we can see if there's a

(01:33:47):
connection and there's a fit.
It's not a coaching call.
I have had two instances where,um, I've had potential clients
come on and they knew the price.
Coming on, we established that,like you know, work wise and
fit wise, it's a good fit.

(01:34:08):
But they were feeling a bit ofa money block around it, and so
I have offered like a 30 minutecoaching call to them for free
to allow us to actually movethrough that and see if it's a
sovereign yes or no at the endof a, an actual coaching call.
And so I very purposely setthat up as like a separate call,

(01:34:31):
because I want there to be adistinction between hey, this is
a call that we've set up tolike connect and this is a call
that we've set up to likeconnect and this is a call that
we've set up to coach.

Speaker 2 (01:34:42):
Yeah.
And they consented to thesecond call versus they're not.
Just because they're hopping ona call with you for connection
doesn't necessarily mean they'reconsenting to be coached as
well.

Speaker 1 (01:34:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's sort of my take onlike pricing.
I also noticed that, like whenI am scrolling through people's
offers, like when I haveconsidered hiring coaches, quite
frankly, like I get kind ofannoyed when their price isn't

(01:35:13):
listed because I know that mostlikely it's going to be at least
a couple thousand dollars,likely it's going to be at least
a couple thousand dollars.
I don't have just like theability to throw around $3,000
to $5,000 around like at anygiven moment in my life.
I need time to be able to saveup for that, for a purchase like
that.

(01:35:33):
And so you know, if they'redoing a launch and they're like
launch has like an open and shutdate and it creates all this
like, oh shit, like I need tocome up with $5,000 now.
Like that doesn't feel good tomy nervous system.
Versus, hey, this person'scommunicating with me that
they're opening doors in fourmonths or five months and I'm

(01:35:56):
really interested in thatprogram, so I would like to
spend the next four or fivemonths scrolling away a couple
hundred dollars every month or athousand dollars every month,
so that I can then do that in away that I feel safe in my
nervous system.
So I know that, even with myprograms and my one-on-ones,
like it's an investment, likeit's pricey, like I get that,

(01:36:20):
and so in that situation, like Iwant people to feel safe when
they're saying yes to me, thatthey're not saying yes because
they are getting this likefeeling of like FOMO, or like
like your your um conversationwas saying, your person in the
DMs was saying like oh, I'mfawning to this person.
now I totally get that too.

(01:36:42):
Like I once bought a scooterbecause I thought that the
salesperson was doing such agood job and I wanted a scooter
and I couldn't afford it.
So I put it on my credit cardand like fully regretted it
later and it was like lookingback on it like that was in my I
don't know like mid twenties.
It's like a total fawn response, you know.

(01:37:03):
And so like I've been in thosesituations where it's like, oh,
there's like this, likepressurized moment, like
launches are hard, you guys,like launches are just innately
going to be pressurized, like wedon't need to create even more
pressure on top of the likealready pressurized system for

(01:37:25):
both you as a practitioner andfor the client.
Like yeah, like why, why are wedoing this to ourselves again?
It's like we can unchoose someof that stress, and one of the
ways that I unchoose that stressis by giving people as much
information as they need to makea sovereign decision.

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
Yeah yeah.
Making informed choices ismaking sovereign choices, and
price is a big piece of that.
Yeah, huge piece of that.
Right that would be like can youimagine going through the real
estate listings, since you justhad this experience of buying
condo and then buying landbefore that.
Can you imagine going throughall these real estate listings

(01:38:03):
and like seeing a bunch oflistings that you love and then
actually going out to theproperty, touring the property
and not knowing the whole timewhat the cost would be, and then
at the end the realtor's likethat's going to be a million
dollars and you're like fuck,you know, like it was a waste of
her time, it was a waste ofyour time, it was a waste of

(01:38:24):
everyone's energy.
And like I don't understand whyit's okay to like post the
prices of houses or, you know,trips or groceries or whatever,
but when it comes to coaching,like for some reason we're not
supposed to make that likeobvious public information.
I don't get it.

Speaker 1 (01:38:38):
Well it well.
I mean, I think the obviousanswer there is.
Like you're, if you post aprice, like in an open way, then
you are taking out anopportunity to manipulate
somebody only why it's neverfelt good to me to not post my
prices yeah, yeah.
I mean yeah, I think I hadsomething else to say about that

(01:39:02):
.
Now I don't remember that'sokay that's okay we cover it all
.

Speaker 2 (01:39:06):
I covered yeah, context and burnout and
listening to the body and thebody's wisdom.
We covered functional freeze.
We covered ethical stuff,discernment, anything else that
you wanted to say.

Speaker 1 (01:39:30):
There was one more thing about pricing.
It's going to drive me crazy.
Now I'm seeing sovereignty.
It's gone.
It'll be something else.

Speaker 2 (01:39:49):
Another conversation then.
Yeah, oh, this is lovely.
I feel like I got to expel someenergy about this.
I've been feeling like quitefight response about it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40:06):
I've noticed myself, the more I see this kind of
marketing now that the nervoussystem is trendy and you know
there's a dime, a dozen for,like practitioners who do
somatic things and whatever likeI've noticed myself feeling
like very protective of, of likethe collective, very protective
of of like the collective, likeof my followers, or like, like,
like people in the in the spacethat are like seeking help.

(01:40:26):
I've noticed myself like andobviously I can't save them, you
know, but I'm just like, oh, Ifeel so like protective of you
because, like I have enoughexperience to know that like
this kind of timeline guarantee,you know, opening this can of
worms with no space holding,like dysregulated pain point

(01:40:48):
marketing, like I know thatthat's just going to if you buy
into it, if you don't havediscernment, and you buy into it
, like it's just another timearound the mountain for you and
like maybe that's part of yourjourney and I don't have control
over that.
You are a sovereign human beingand you are allowed to make
that choice for yourself.
But like, oh, I want you to notdo.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
Yeah, and I mean like I think you know we, we can't
protect people, we can't savepeople, but we can educate
people and we can ask peoplelike, hey, like what does that
feel like in your body?
One of the things, like on theconcept around discernment that
we've been talking about here islike one of the red flags is
like when somebody says we canheal your nervous system in a

(01:41:29):
month, yeah, absolutely, when weput a timeline on our nervous
system.
The reason why my program is ayear long is because we are
working through your at the paceof your nervous system and
nervous systems, because we'vebeen like pushed and hustled and
like pressured.
It takes a minute for us totake, take the pressure off, and

(01:41:53):
then the nervous system is like, oh, you're actually gonna
listen to me.
Like what, you're gonnaactually listen to me.
Like it takes a minute for yournervous system to actually
understand that we're trying tolisten.
And so like if somebody ispromising that they're going to
push you through a program in 30days, 60 days, 90 days and
they're going to heal like allof your childhood wounds in that

(01:42:14):
time, like big fucking red flag.

Speaker 2 (01:42:17):
So like please have discernment around that yeah, I
mean, and like, I echo thatcompletely and I like I'll just
say my own experience that Italked about with the buzzing
ball of yarn in my pelvis islike I know all the things that
I know, I do all the work that Ido, I hold the space I hold, I
do this with myself and I stillhad something that I didn't know

(01:42:40):
how to face on my own and Ididn't know how to get to it.
And so you can know all thethings and still need that
co-regulatory, liketrauma-informed, slow, spacious
space holder.
And so, yeah, like I can't evenimagine if somebody had been

(01:43:01):
like, oh yeah, we're going toget that buzzing ball of yarn
out of your pelvis in 30 days,you know, like to me that would
have set me up to bedisappointed when it didn't
happen.
Yeah, you know, cause what ifmy body wasn't ready to let that
go after 30 days?
You know, I worked with aclient yesterday and she had
some big somatic movements andwe processed a lot and one of
the sensations that she had whenwe first started the call was

(01:43:24):
she felt like a, like a suit ofarmor, like the the torso part
of a suit of armor was likearound her torso but it had like
rose thorns on the inside.
That was like poking at her yeah, super uncomfortable.
And she also had like thefeeling that there was like a, a
cleaver like slicing throughher neck.
And she also had like thefeeling that there was like a
cleaver like slicing through herneck and she had a sensation

(01:43:44):
that like a bag was over herhead and we worked with each
sensation individually and bythe end of the call the bag
sensation was gone, the cleaversensation was gone, but the suit
of armor wasn't ready torelease yet.
But we were able to create somespace between her and the suit
of armor.
So it's still there, but she'snot physically in that

(01:44:07):
discomfort anymore and like thatwas all her nervous system
could tolerate yesterday.
And so yeah, it was a fuck tonof work yesterday, so like that
that's.
Another thing, too is lettingthe client's nervous system
decide the pace that you work at.
And then, being conservative asa practitioner, that even if

(01:44:30):
you're still, there was still 30minutes left in our call.
After we got the meat cleaverin the bag off of her head, we
still had 30 minutes left in ourcall and I asked her like do
you feel like you are ready toprocess the suit of armor around
you or do you feel like that'senough for the day?
And she's like I think I feellike that's enough for the day.

(01:44:51):
And I was like, yeah, me too.
Like that's a lot to integrateand to have just gone through
and you know.
So like again, we have to checkour egos as practitioners and
when we start trying to push sothat we can prove what a great
coach we are or we can, you knowwe got to check our egos at the
door because it just doesn'thave a place in this work with

(01:45:13):
people.
Like we have to learn to beunattached to pace timelines.
Be unattached to pace timelines, progress, et cetera.
We have to be unattached.

Speaker 1 (01:45:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, my dear thank you forspending this time getting fired
up with me about this.
I have a feeling that we'regoing to keep talking about it.

Speaker 2 (01:45:37):
Probably so.

Speaker 1 (01:45:38):
So stay, folks, we'll see you next time we get to
record.
Actually, the next time I thinkI get to see you is here,
lindsay's coming to visit.

Speaker 2 (01:45:48):
I'm going to be in your physical presence.
It's going to be amazing.
I'm going to be on your land.
I'm going to be petting yourhorses and your dog.
I'm so excited, me too.
I'm really excited, me too.
I'm really excited.
Yeah, see you soon.
All right, bye-bye.

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