May 28, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode, I decode the exact formula of pain point marketing and discuss the ethical implications of using these strategies. This is especially relevant for space-holders who are trying to share work about nervous system regulation and somatic healing but feel like there are no ethical ways to market their work. By understanding the tactics of pain point marketing, you'll be able to see through the veil and create choice and nuance both as a consumer and as a spiritual entrepreneur.
Kat HoSoo Lee is an Emotional Alchemy Coach, Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Emotional Alchemy Podcast.
She loves playing in the space where science and spirituality converge because this is where we get to experience emotional alchemy. In her work, she educates space-holders about somatic physiology and environmental biology so they can deepen their practices of listening and presence which ultimately helps them expand their capacity to hold space for others.
As a Spiritual Business Mentor, she guides soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. The work bridges the emotional landscape with practical tools which allow them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, relational marketing and purposeful service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, my dear friends.
So last week I recorded anepisode with my friend, lindsay
Lockett.
That's episode 143.
And we talked about the ethicsthat we're seeing showing up in
nervous system regulation work,in somatics, and the kind of
marketing that we were talkingabout is pain point marketing.
(00:24):
And after that conversation Ireally sat down with it and
wanted to even just for myselfkind of map it out and be like
okay, so what are the differentcharacteristics?
That is indicative of painpoint marketing, so that I can
identify it within myself andthen also be able to teach about
(00:45):
it.
So I wrote it up as anInstagram post.
It's called the pain pointmarketing formula decoded, and I
realized as I was writing itthere is so much more than I can
fit into a 10 slide carousel.
So I've been feeling this pull,naturally, to create more long
(01:07):
form content.
So I'm doing this experimenthere.
I'm taking the concepts that Ioutlined in Instagram and I'm
going to be putting it up onYouTube and on the podcast,
because they can't confine me to10 slides on YouTube and on the
podcast.
So I'm glad that you're herefor this experiment.
I'm going to be reading thisslide and then also be sort of
(01:31):
like expanding on some of theseconcepts that we talk about.
So here we go Pain pointmarketing formula decoded.
So we start out with the title.
A lot of these pain pointmarketing campaigns, content
pieces that we see floating allover the internet, but
particularly so in social media.
(01:52):
They begin with a catchyclickbaity title that promises
some sort of dreamy, tangibleresult.
So I'm going to sort of stickwith my particular niche, which
is business, and I've seen somany different titles.
I actually pulled all theexamples in this post from
(02:12):
people's websites and from theircontent.
I'm not going to share who theyare, but they're all different
people.
So something like steal mystrategy to 5x your income.
Now the name of the game insocial media marketing is being
able to hold, or rather capture,your attention and then hold it
(02:35):
.
And why this kind of titlefeels so compelling is because
it triggers a dopamine responsein your body.
Dopamine is the neuromodulatorthat regulates desire and
motivation.
It is the neuromodulator thatgets you to look outside of
(02:56):
yourself, and so it pushes youaway from this like here and now
sort of a situation and morelooking towards the future,
which isn't necessarily bad,right, but it shifts you from
being internally focused tobeing externally driven and
moving towards the goal ofwhatever it is that this offer
is promising.
The pieces that I find reallyproblematic about this is that a
(03:18):
lot of the work of being traumainformed is that we want to be
encouraging our clients to belooking internally, within
themselves.
We want them to be focusing onokay, so like what are your
goals?
And then let's help you getthere what are some of your
desires and help you get there.
(03:40):
And a lot of these titles likeeven just the title, feels
problematic because it is veryprescriptive.
It asks you to look outsideyourself and be like oh, that's
how people are defining success.
Is some sort of income markerthat is five times more than
what I have right now.
So that's step one.
(04:00):
Step two is to pound on painpoints, and so essentially, what
we're doing with pain pointmarketing is we're painting a
picture of the pain, the fears,the worries, the insecurities
that you might be experiencing.
So an example of this is againpulled from somebody's website
you don't know what to do tomake a real impact on your
(04:20):
bottom line.
Maybe you're tired of hearingcrickets every time you launch
while you're working endlesslyand missing out on your family,
friends and your life.
Now, this step is a little bitconfusing because even in
relational marketing we talkabout pain, and so I'm going to
say here that it doesn't meanthat you're doing pain point
marketing by naming pain, butintentionality matters so, so
(04:45):
freaking much here.
Imagine where the seller is whenyou are hearing and reading
through that list of pain points.
Are they walking beside you asthey're talking about pain?
Are they walking beside you assomebody who's an equal,
somebody who might have beenthere before and has some
(05:07):
guidance and support, some tools, because they know how they
would have wanted to besupported back then?
Do you feel understood?
Are they naming things thathave felt previously unnameable
to you?
One of my favorite commentsfrom this post that I put up is
somebody shared that this posthas entirely described what I
(05:27):
feel every time I look at somecoaches posts and I wasn't sure
what was happening inside memany of the times.
That she says is so great, butat the same time, I feel like I
go into a black or white feelinginside me and I start feeling a
lot of anxiety.
Thank you so much for puttingit into words, and that's
exactly what I mean is you knowwhen you are using relational
(05:48):
marketing and talking about painpoints.
It's coming from a place oflike hey, like, I understand
this and I want to furtherunderstand you and in that
process, it helps you understandyourself better.
Now pain point marketing doessomething different.
Pain point marketing puts theseller above you.
So if you think aboutrelationally in space, they are
(06:12):
placing a hierarchy, they areleveraging themselves as an
expert.
They are saying you have to dothe things that I say, that you
do.
And in that process of themtalking about pain pain that is
incredibly real to you, it mightactually make you feel more
vulnerable, it might make youfeel broken and they also do
(06:36):
this thing where they leveragethemselves as a rescuer.
So, by putting this hierarchyinto place, they're saying, hey,
like, I can rescue you, myprogram can rescue, my tools can
rescue you out of thissuffering that you're feeling.
Step three that I see out therein the world and this tends to
(06:57):
come right after there's aformula here, right, this tends
to come right after the painpoints is the freedom picture.
So the focus now shifts tocompelling you to imagine what
your life could look like ifonly your life was more free.
Live where you want, take onclients where you want, or take
on clients that you want, chargewhat you want, go where you
(07:18):
want.
And then these often come withpictures of Mai Tais on the
beach in Bali.
Maybe they're showing off theirbrand new luxury handbag next
to their luxury car.
They're, you know, showing offphotos of them being able to
spend all this time with theirkids and go on dates with their
husbands, and you know so like.
(07:41):
You get this picture of like oh, that's so different from what
my life looks like, and if onlyI signed up for this program,
then maybe my life can also looklike that.
Now, this concept of freedom isso compelling because, when you
are struggling, your nervoussystem narrows your focus down
(08:01):
to binary choices.
Narrows your focus down tobinary choices.
That's exactly what thiscommenter was sharing is that
she feels her nervous system gointo this black and white sort
of feeling right, and so whenyou feel trapped in your present
life, what you're craving isfreedom.
Little caveat I say this allthe time, every time I talk
(08:21):
about the nervous system andbinaries is this doesn't mean
that your nervous system iswrong.
It doesn't mean that there'sanything wrong with you.
It does not mean that you haveto fix anything.
This does not mean that you'rein a functional freeze.
What it means is that there'ssomething that feels really
threatening in your life and,like full disclosure, that
threat might be lack of money incapitalism.
And so, you know, when we're inthat place, we start to narrow
(08:47):
our choices down to one, like,to two things.
Right, and this is what ournervous system has done for
generations and generations.
We don't want to be looking intothe eyes of a bear that might
is trying to attack us and think, oh, like, I have to create
some nuance here.
I want to understand what thisbear is, is all about.
Like, no, like.
You need to narrow down yourchoices to fight or flight.
(09:08):
And so your nervous systemdoesn't understand the
difference between a bear thatis coming after you or you
trying to build a businesswithin this extractive
capitalistic system, becausethey both register as threats in
your nervous system, and soyour nervous system is going to
do the thing that it knows whatto do, which is binary choices,
right, and so the pain pointmarketing.
(09:30):
What it does is it preys on thisdesire for freedom, because,
again, when you're in binarychoice mode, you're feeling
trapped, and so you know yourbody is craving that sense of
exhale, that freedom, that thenuance, the choice.
And so, because pain pointmarketing understands this,
(09:51):
they're going to paint thatpicture for you and even if that
picture is something that, like, you might not even want, right
?
Like I know, I have fallen forpain point marketing from a
particular business coach andshe showed pictures of her life
that had nothing to do with howI wanted to live my life.
(10:11):
Right, she had pictures of herat Burning man and going to a
bunch of different parties and,you know, renting these gorgeous
houses on the ocean side,gorgeous houses on the ocean
side, and that's totally not myvibe.
But what it did is it preyed onmy own desire to create freedom
in my own life.
(10:32):
Now, this is particularlycompelling.
If your present moment is sopainful for you that you want to
run away, the freedom picturecatalyzes that disassociation
and again we're looking atdopamine here as that
neuromodulator.
It shifts that focus from hereand now, what you are
experiencing in this moment,here and now, which feels
(10:52):
incredibly painful, which youmight equate with suffering, to
something outside of yourpresent experience.
Your body, your life and againI want to bring in this like
trauma-informed nuance in thislens is part of our work of
doing trauma-informed regulationwith our clients is bringing
(11:12):
them back into the here and now,even if it's painful, even if
it feels like suffering.
We want them to reallyunderstand what is happening in
their body in this presentmoment, so that they are able to
move forward with regulationinstead of moving forward from a
place of fight or flight.
Step four is that they highlightstudent success stories, but
(11:38):
only the best of the best, onlythe top student success stories
are highlighted and they tellstories of you know this client
used to be just like you and howyou know their overnight
success was so easy and thisprogram was the magic sauce that
, like, made everything happen.
And I want to just like focusin on this.
(12:01):
Concept of easy easy ishighlighted, it is underscored
and it is in bold.
And concept of easy Easy ishighlighted, it is underscored
and it is in bold.
And one of the things that Ireally want to like like stress
here is that a lot of the thingsthat we want to accomplish, a
lot of the goals that we want toaccomplish and again I'm going
to bring this in the context ofbusiness like business is meant
(12:23):
to be hard and I don't say thatin the like you know, martyred,
like I just love torturingmyself sort of way.
But you know, what business doesis.
It asks you to look at your owntriggers within yourself.
(12:43):
It's asking you to identifysome of these belief systems
that don't work for you.
It's asking you to move throughlayers of things that haven't
felt safe historically for you.
And then you put that in thecontext of like society and
culture and the collective, andwe are fighting against
(13:07):
essentially this extractivecapitalistic system and so like
to do that it is really fuckinghard.
And so you know, in a littlebit I'm going to name some other
coaches that I think who aredoing a really excellent job of
relational marketing.
But in each of their niches,what I see is they are trying to
(13:30):
do really hard work.
So why would their business andhow their business comes into
fruition, why would that?
Be super easy.
I also think that we have thisidea, particularly in the last,
I want to say like five to10-ish.
If it's not easy, people tendto not want to do that thing and
(13:53):
what we're seeing is there'sthis like lack of resiliency
that is showing up in ourcollective culture and to me,
like this is the underpinning ofa lot of different cultural
dynamics that I don'tnecessarily want to get into,
but, like, like one of thethings that I see nowadays is
it's so hard to haveconversations with somebody who
(14:14):
disagrees with you, like that isa hard thing to do, and I find
that people are like, likemoving away from that dynamic
because it feels so hard insteadof actually sitting there and
having the hard conversationwith somebody that they love and
you know, trying to move thecollective needle towards
(14:34):
understanding instead ofdisagreement, and this like
fissure that we're seeing, right.
And so if, at every point ofdifficulty, you were hit with
this pain point, marketing thatsays, oh no, it's easy, you just
have to download this thing,you just have to take my program
, you just have to work with mething, you just have to take my
(14:56):
program, you just have to workwith me.
Again, it creates that dynamicof rescuer and victim.
And so, you know, one of thethings that I really want to
highlight about all of myprograms is that there is a
variety of results that happenthrough moving through my
programs.
Right, I do have clients whoyou know.
I have one client who's aboutto bill half a million dollars
(15:17):
this year through an offeringthat she created through this
program, through my program, andI also have students who go
through my business outcome asmentorship program and decide
that they don't actually want tocreate an online business.
I think that, for me, actuallywant to create an online
(15:37):
business.
I think that for me, the morecompelling story is, did moving
through the program help you getcloser to who you are?
And I would say, fundamentally,you know, everyone looks
different on the outside betweennot following the path to
online coach world to being ableto, like, create this amazing
(15:58):
business on the other end of it,the common thread between them
all is that they all feel closerto themselves and they all feel
closer to their purpose.
They understand a bit moreabout what drives them and then
they're able to, you know,create their life from that
place.
And to me, that is so much moreimportant than you know.
(16:20):
I had one coach where I tookher business program and she had
us report each month how muchwe were making each month.
So then that that way she couldtake that into her marketing
and say like, oh, my studentscollectively made x, you know,
thousands of dollars, um, inthis last month and so like.
(16:44):
To me, like that is just.
Oh, I guess I guess the thingthat bothers me about that is
just there's a superficial layerto it that doesn't account for
the nuance and differentexperiences and different life
paths that everyone is meant totake.
(17:05):
So something that I wrote onthis post is like pointing out
the buildup feeling right so,between the pain points, the
freedom picture and the successstories that that wave of
dopamine is like finding itscrest, and to me, like that is
like where pain point marketingis like yes, like we're hitting
(17:27):
the nail on the head.
And to me, like that's like apretty gross way to sell to
people.
Step five is to tell people toinvest in themselves.
This is the perfect time, asthat wave is cresting, to make
the offer, and oftentimes theprice is named as a investment.
(17:48):
This one word is subtlymanipulative, and I say that as
somebody who has actually usedthis word before.
And so full disclosure.
I've changed a lot of the copyon my website.
If anybody out there who islike going through my website
and sees the word invest onthere, please let me know.
I think I've caught it all, butthere might be a couple of
(18:11):
words out there that I haven'tcaught.
But there might be a couple ofwords out there that I haven't
caught, but I moved away fromthat word because it feels
manipulative.
Think about how you justify themoney that you're spending when
you're making an investmentversus when something is a cost.
And so I'm really explicit thatthis is a cost because I bet
that you're willing to spend alittle bit more outside of your
(18:34):
comfort zone.
If something is an investment,then that's something that I see
, that's vocabulary that I see alot with coaches these days,
and something that feels likekind of icky to me.
And then step six is to createpressure.
This is the cherry on top right.
So if that, that, that dopaminewave hasn't pushed this person
(18:59):
to buy yet, the little cherry ontop is the seller is going to
sprinkle in a little push ofpressure in the form of scarcity
and FOMO.
Pain point marketing relies onpushing you into an adrenalized
fight or flight state tomobilize and make a purchase
right.
Essentially, like both withrelational marketing and with
(19:24):
pain point marketing, what we'rehoping for is that the person
on the other side is going tomove towards us.
Pain point marketing uses thenervous system and again,
nervous system and dopamine topush people into a state of
fight or flight so that they'llgo and make that purchase.
In relational marketing, um,what we're hoping for is this
(19:47):
person feels so understood,they're in a parasympathetic
state, they are feelingempowered in their choice,
they're they're looking at theirchoice as an autonomous one,
and so then when they movetowards us to make a purchase
that comes from a place wherethere's regulation, there's
understanding, there'ssovereignty, right, and to me,
(20:09):
like that is the fundamental,like biggest difference between
relational marketing and painpoint marketing is what nervous
system state is that person inwho is buying?
So, just in case that buyerisn't quite there yet, that last
little bit of pressure will getyou there.
That oftentimes looks like avery, very narrow window of a
(20:34):
launch cycle.
There's a reason that businessalcoholist mentorship I am my
launch cycle is actually twomonths because I want people to
like A if they haven't heardabout it before, like I want
them to understand that theyhave like a full two months to
like make that decision.
If they haven't heard about itbefore and they've been thinking
(20:55):
about it and they're sitting onthe fence about it, I want them
to come to that decision from aregulated place, and so it's
not uncommon for my launchcycles to be really, really slow
in the beginning and thentowards the end is when, like,
most of my people end up buying.
And it's because I've giventhem all that space to consider.
I've given them all that spaceto like, think about, you know,
(21:20):
like my program is a year long,like that's a big commitment,
both financially and with time,and so like, does that make
sense to fit that into your lifein this moment?
Right, and um, I think that,like, short launch cycles paired
with, um, artificial reasons tocreate scarcity, right, um, I
(21:46):
don't think there's any reasonfor something that pre-recorded
to have a ton of pressure, thatthat's like the, the, the
perfect offering to not putpressure on to people.
And yet those are the offeringsthat I see with the most
pressure, where you know youclick and you buy one thing, and
(22:08):
then you go through theirfunnel and there's an upsell
after an upsell, after an upsell, and this deal is going to
expire after 10 minutes and youhave to buy this now, otherwise
it's going to go up in price,and so to me that's oh so, very,
very icky.
So a couple more things that Iwant to just share as we're
(22:29):
going through this.
Let's just take a moment andsit with the body.
I've just given you a ton ofinformation.
These are likely things thatyou've thought about and felt
before and you might not havebeen able to like name it as
such, right?
So sit with us all for a moment.
(22:50):
How does going through theanatomy of pain point marketing
feel in your body?
And I'll just give you a momentto like just sit with whatever
is arising for you.
So for me, when I sit with theseconcepts of pain point
(23:12):
marketing and feel where itlands in my body, the immediate
thing that comes up for me isshame.
I feel shame in my own body forhow many times I've fallen for
this kind of marketing.
Also for how I have used thesetactics myself.
You know, like I've sharedpretty explicitly that I have
taken business courses beforeand this is what I was taught.
(23:34):
I've been taught formulas andtemplates, and you know this
whole idea around don't let thatperson get off the sales call
without a yes.
And so we need to find ways toadjust these objections before
they're even having them, waysto adjust these objections
(23:55):
before they're even having them,and you know the ways in which
content marketing is really sortof taught these days, like I
don't see anything else outthere that isn't pain point
marketing.
So I myself have used thesetactics before.
Luckily, I didn't use them forvery long because it didn't feel
good in my body and I was likeI'm going to do something
different.
I have no idea where this istaking me, but I can't do it
this way anymore.
(24:17):
I also feel anger that this isthe water that we all swim in
these days, I think inparticular in the online and
social media spaces.
It's one of the reasons why Ifeel this pull to move.
I don't know if I'll ever getoff Instagram completely, but I
do feel a pull to move towardslong-form content.
(24:39):
I feel like long-form contentis inherently going to be less
pain pointy, because part of theum, part of that like push
energy that you feel from yourcontent creators is because they
feel limited in their space.
(25:00):
Right like instagram only givesus 10 slides to work with and
you know if you put up a storyit's like one minute at a time
and so to me, like as somebodywho's coming in with this like
creative energy, it feels reallystifling to put it in those
boxes.
So, yeah, I feel anger.
(25:21):
I also feel rage that I amseeing this tidal wave of pain
point marketing being used tosell nervous system work and
somatics.
I think that nervous systemwork and somatics are sacred,
sacred medicines.
Lindsay and I spent this lastepisode 143, talking about all
that, and I have a feeling thatwe're not quite done talking
(25:44):
about it because it's justrampant.
Because I talk about thenervous system, the algorithm
loves showing me these 30 daysomatic trauma healing courses
that I need to take and, youknow it, it just feels so gross
that it's being marketed in thisway, because that is not what
(26:06):
nervous system work is meant todo essentially.
So I am in the middle oflaunching business alchemist
mentorship right now, and noneof these tactics are going to
show up in my content, eventhough if I use pain point
marketing, I would probably getmore enrollments in BAM if I
(26:27):
marketed in that way.
And the reason why I refuse touse pain point marketing in my
content is because I don't thinkmore is better.
I think that a lot of ways thatpeople are taught how to do
business these days is alwaysthis idea of more is better, and
(26:47):
I fundamentally disagree withthat.
I think that the work that we doin BAM is really hard.
Like I sort of alluded tobefore, we are disentangling
threads of trauma, years ofmisunderstanding.
You know stories and beliefsthat no longer align for you.
We're restructuring whatcommunity support looks like.
(27:10):
We're dismantling theseextractive business practices
and choosing something that,honestly, like I feel like it
doesn't always feel like it hasform, and so I'm not looking for
more people to be on thatjourney with me.
If I use pain point marketing,what it would attract is
(27:32):
entrepreneurs who are idealisticin their desire to deconstruct
capitalism while still wantingcapitalism to work for them, and
what I would be attracting arepeople who basically want to
continue to act like wolves andput on a sheep's outfit, and
(27:53):
that's not what I'm interestedin.
So, yeah, I'm going to get lesspeople.
In addition to that, it wouldrepel the exact kind of people
that I want to attract in andwho I think are going to find
belonging in the BAM community.
We are a small army of witchy,sensitive, nerdy, feral weirdos
(28:19):
who see business as a spiritualpractice, and that is not the
journey for everybody.
That's not the journey forreally most of the entrepreneurs
that I see out in the world,for really most of the
entrepreneurs that I see out inthe world, and so you know, I
gave a lot of examples of whatpain point marketing looks like.
I also wanted to give you someexamples of what relational
marketing looks like, and so Ihave some folks that I want to
(28:43):
send you to, and you know acouple of them are horse people,
some of them are business folks, some of them are creative
mentors.
You know, even if you're notparticularly interested in
horses, let's say, because noteverybody's into horses like
just go and read through some oftheir content and and just like
(29:05):
sink into what it feels like tobe in their spaces.
So the first two I want to nameare Lockie Phillips from
Emotional Horsemanship andShannon Bahan from Humming Horse
Equestrian.
These two are my two horsetrainers.
So it's like not a coincidencethat you're going to see me
naming folks that I either amstudents of, or they were
(29:25):
students of mine, or they'restudents of mine, or they're
collaborators of mine, or somemix and combination of those.
Those three roles right isbecause, you know, if I find
relational marketing to be soimportant in my own business,
you better damn well understandthat when I choose to work with
somebody as my coach.
(29:46):
I'm going to be leaning intopeople who I also see doing this
relational marketing thing,even if they they don't have the
vocabulary vocabulary to put onthat on the way that they're
marketing.
So, lockie Phillips, emotionalHorsemanship.
Shannon Ban from Humming Horse,equestrian.
What they have in common isthey are trying to shift the
(30:08):
dynamics of the horse world,which is actually incredibly
abusive, and abusive to bothhorses and to equestrians, I
would say and they're reallytrying to bring in a safe,
relational dynamic between horseand equestrian.
(30:30):
And so I think about mysessions with them as like,
almost like, translationsessions.
They're not even horse trainingsessions per se.
They're helping me understandmy horses better.
The other folks I want to namehere Lindsay Lockett, if you've
(30:51):
been around with me, she's beenon my podcast a bajillion times.
I've already referenced that.
We just did one, 143.
And like, the thing I want topoint out with her stuff is that
(31:27):
it is long right Like.
She's also another woman who islike long form content and that
is because the concepts that weget into it's so hard to make
them fit in the boxes.
Another one in that category isSarah Cook from Freelance
Feminist.
She's got a beautiful sub stackand you know, again, like sub
stack creates a differentplatform where long form content
is a little bit more acceptedand to me, like when I jump into
her writing, into her writing,it is again nuanced, it is
(31:51):
tender, there's zeroprescription, and so like that's
really kind of what I'm lookingfor when I'm looking at
relational marketing.
Other folks in this world EmmaRose Tate she's a dear friend of
mine, she's also a businesscoach and you know she talks
(32:20):
about very, very similar thingsto me Nadine Zumat and Cecily
Saylor, also worth mentioninghere.
Nadine talks about money,trauma and Cecily Saylor, she
runs Typewriter Tarot and shehas a series on this podcast
with me where we compare andcontrast, uh, the tarot and the
itching again.
These are folks who are doingdifficult work right, and
(32:43):
difficult work means that we arefor lack of a better way of
saying this like, like we're not, we're not dumbing our shit
down, right.
So the markers that I look forwhen I look at relational
marketing is are they gettingsuper fucking nerdy about their
(33:03):
communities?
Are they listening?
Are they getting really curiousabout what these folks are
experiencing and then creatingcontent that helps those people
feel understood?
Are they honest, like that'ssuch an important one is like I
feel like I now have this likelike sniffer when it comes to
(33:24):
honesty in the social mediaspaces, because I can fucking
like sniff that stuff out whenpeople are being completely
dishonest and when they'reshowing a facade and the energy
of it just feels like just realsticky.
Yeah, the energy just feelsreally sticky to me.
(33:45):
Um, are they focused oncreating oxytocin and serotonin
connection rather than dopamineconnection?
And that is going to feelreally different in my body.
It also means that it's probablygoing to take a little bit
longer for people to warm up,and so, for example, I followed
(34:08):
him for years and I had him onmy podcast and then I've been on
his podcast and like it wasjust this like like back and
forth of like quite honestly,kind of testing the waters to
see if he was the right horsetrainer for me.
And it was only after yearsthat I signed up to do private
sessions with him and then alsogo to his in-person clinics.
(34:28):
And you know, the reallywonderful thing about relational
marketing is that you end upcreating a very, very loyal base
of community members, becauseit's built on trust, because
it's built on accountability andit's built on transparency and
honesty.
I also think that when I lookat relational marketing, there's
(34:54):
a really lovely balance betweeneducation and sharing the work
through stories and livedexperiences.
And so to me, like I, I can getso nerdy about these concepts
and I honestly love sharingbecause I want people to be
(35:14):
educated, even if folks neverwork with me.
What I love to do is teach andI love to educate people and
help them see through some ofthe stuff that like is so
pervasive in our, in our cultureand through that process.
You know, hopefully you'remaking different decisions in
your life when it comes to whoyou're choosing as a coach, who
(35:35):
you're choosing, as you know,even like in your personal life,
who you're choosing as apartner, who you're choosing for
your therapist.
Right, like, all of thesethreads of finding safety and
finding feeling into if thatperson is regulating or
dysregulating, like it ripplesout into everything that we do.
(35:57):
And then, um, just to like,continue to like.
You know, bring this home.
Is this idea of like.
Stop simplifying shit.
That's complicated.
That's like one of the thingsthat just drives me nuts about
using pain point marketing withsomatics and with nervous system
(36:19):
regulation work is, because Iknow how complicated and nuanced
nervous system work in somaticscan be, because I have been in
that world for the last decadeand if it feels too good to be
true, you know like I'm seeingthose same ads that you're
(36:41):
seeing.
Heal your nervous system, healyour trauma in 30 days by using
this somatic exercise program.
Like, doesn't that sound likefishy right off of the bat?
You know, I've talked with somany people in my DMs who have
shared with me that they'vetaken these classes or they've
bought that program and theyfeel immediately icky right
(37:03):
after and they share that thereason why they ended up signing
up for those programs isbecause of FOMO.
The reason why they ended upsigning up for those programs is
because of FOMO.
Like, you put enough pressureon a person until they buy and
at the end of their buyingprocess they don't actually feel
supported, they don't feelnourished, they actually feel
FOMO.
(37:23):
So that is all I have to sayabout pain point marketing.
Actually, that's not all I haveto say.
I'm sure I've got lots more tosay, but that's all I have to
say about pain point marketing.
Actually, that's not all I haveto say.
I'm sure I've got lots more tosay, but that's all I have to
say today about pain pointmarketing and you know, like I
had shared, if you're hearingthis on my podcast, I'm going to
be putting a lot more stuff upon YouTube.
(37:44):
These days I'm already startingto feel that pull, and so if
you are somebody who's intoYouTube, please come subscribe,
and if you're listening on thepodcast, subscribe through
whatever platform you'relistening through, and that
really helps other folks, justlike you find this work and I
(38:04):
would love to just continue tobuild this community.
So thanks for listening andwe'll see you soon.
Hello, my dear friends.
So last week I recorded anepisode with my friend, lindsay
Lockett.
That's episode 143.
And we talked about the ethicsthat we're seeing showing up in
nervous system regulation work,in somatics, and the kind of
marketing that we were talkingabout is pain point marketing.
(00:24):
And after that conversation Ireally sat down with it and
wanted to even just for myselfkind of map it out and be like
okay, so what are the differentcharacteristics?
That is indicative of painpoint marketing, so that I can
identify it within myself andthen also be able to teach about
(00:45):
it.
So I wrote it up as anInstagram post.
It's called the pain pointmarketing formula decoded, and I
realized as I was writing itthere is so much more than I can
fit into a 10 slide carousel.
So I've been feeling this pull,naturally, to create more long
(01:07):
form content.
So I'm doing this experimenthere.
I'm taking the concepts that Ioutlined in Instagram and I'm
going to be putting it up onYouTube and on the podcast,
because they can't confine me to10 slides on YouTube and on the
podcast.
So I'm glad that you're herefor this experiment.
I'm going to be reading thisslide and then also be sort of
(01:31):
like expanding on some of theseconcepts that we talk about.
So here we go Pain pointmarketing formula decoded.
So we start out with the title.
A lot of these pain pointmarketing campaigns, content
pieces that we see floating allover the internet, but
particularly so in social media.
(01:52):
They begin with a catchyclickbaity title that promises
some sort of dreamy, tangibleresult.
So I'm going to sort of stickwith my particular niche, which
is business, and I've seen somany different titles.
I actually pulled all theexamples in this post from
(02:12):
people's websites and from theircontent.
I'm not going to share who theyare, but they're all different
people.
So something like steal mystrategy to 5x your income.
Now the name of the game insocial media marketing is being
able to hold, or rather capture,your attention and then hold it
(02:35):
.
And why this kind of titlefeels so compelling is because
it triggers a dopamine responsein your body.
Dopamine is the neuromodulatorthat regulates desire and
motivation.
It is the neuromodulator thatgets you to look outside of
(02:56):
yourself, and so it pushes youaway from this like here and now
sort of a situation and morelooking towards the future,
which isn't necessarily bad,right, but it shifts you from
being internally focused tobeing externally driven and
moving towards the goal ofwhatever it is that this offer
is promising.
The pieces that I find reallyproblematic about this is that a
(03:18):
lot of the work of being traumainformed is that we want to be
encouraging our clients to belooking internally, within
themselves.
We want them to be focusing onokay, so like what are your
goals?
And then let's help you getthere what are some of your
desires and help you get there.
(03:40):
And a lot of these titles likeeven just the title, feels
problematic because it is veryprescriptive.
It asks you to look outsideyourself and be like oh, that's
how people are defining success.
Is some sort of income markerthat is five times more than
what I have right now.
So that's step one.
(04:00):
Step two is to pound on painpoints, and so essentially, what
we're doing with pain pointmarketing is we're painting a
picture of the pain, the fears,the worries, the insecurities
that you might be experiencing.
So an example of this is againpulled from somebody's website
you don't know what to do tomake a real impact on your
(04:20):
bottom line.
Maybe you're tired of hearingcrickets every time you launch
while you're working endlesslyand missing out on your family,
friends and your life.
Now, this step is a little bitconfusing because even in
relational marketing we talkabout pain, and so I'm going to
say here that it doesn't meanthat you're doing pain point
marketing by naming pain, butintentionality matters so, so
(04:45):
freaking much here.
Imagine where the seller is whenyou are hearing and reading
through that list of pain points.
Are they walking beside you asthey're talking about pain?
Are they walking beside you assomebody who's an equal,
somebody who might have beenthere before and has some
(05:07):
guidance and support, some tools, because they know how they
would have wanted to besupported back then?
Do you feel understood?
Are they naming things thathave felt previously unnameable
to you?
One of my favorite commentsfrom this post that I put up is
somebody shared that this posthas entirely described what I
(05:27):
feel every time I look at somecoaches posts and I wasn't sure
what was happening inside memany of the times.
That she says is so great, butat the same time, I feel like I
go into a black or white feelinginside me and I start feeling a
lot of anxiety.
Thank you so much for puttingit into words, and that's
exactly what I mean is you knowwhen you are using relational
(05:48):
marketing and talking about painpoints.
It's coming from a place oflike hey, like, I understand
this and I want to furtherunderstand you and in that
process, it helps you understandyourself better.
Now pain point marketing doessomething different.
Pain point marketing puts theseller above you.
So if you think aboutrelationally in space, they are
(06:12):
placing a hierarchy, they areleveraging themselves as an
expert.
They are saying you have to dothe things that I say, that you
do.
And in that process of themtalking about pain pain that is
incredibly real to you, it mightactually make you feel more
vulnerable, it might make youfeel broken and they also do
(06:36):
this thing where they leveragethemselves as a rescuer.
So, by putting this hierarchyinto place, they're saying, hey,
like, I can rescue you, myprogram can rescue, my tools can
rescue you out of thissuffering that you're feeling.
Step three that I see out therein the world and this tends to
(06:57):
come right after there's aformula here, right, this tends
to come right after the painpoints is the freedom picture.
So the focus now shifts tocompelling you to imagine what
your life could look like ifonly your life was more free.
Live where you want, take onclients where you want, or take
on clients that you want, chargewhat you want, go where you
(07:18):
want.
And then these often come withpictures of Mai Tais on the
beach in Bali.
Maybe they're showing off theirbrand new luxury handbag next
to their luxury car.
They're, you know, showing offphotos of them being able to
spend all this time with theirkids and go on dates with their
husbands, and you know so like.
(07:41):
You get this picture of like oh, that's so different from what
my life looks like, and if onlyI signed up for this program,
then maybe my life can also looklike that.
Now, this concept of freedom isso compelling because, when you
are struggling, your nervoussystem narrows your focus down
(08:01):
to binary choices.
Narrows your focus down tobinary choices.
That's exactly what thiscommenter was sharing is that
she feels her nervous system gointo this black and white sort
of feeling right, and so whenyou feel trapped in your present
life, what you're craving isfreedom.
Little caveat I say this allthe time, every time I talk
(08:21):
about the nervous system andbinaries is this doesn't mean
that your nervous system iswrong.
It doesn't mean that there'sanything wrong with you.
It does not mean that you haveto fix anything.
This does not mean that you'rein a functional freeze.
What it means is that there'ssomething that feels really
threatening in your life and,like full disclosure, that
threat might be lack of money incapitalism.
And so, you know, when we're inthat place, we start to narrow
(08:47):
our choices down to one, like,to two things.
Right, and this is what ournervous system has done for
generations and generations.
We don't want to be looking intothe eyes of a bear that might
is trying to attack us and think, oh, like, I have to create
some nuance here.
I want to understand what thisbear is, is all about.
Like, no, like.
You need to narrow down yourchoices to fight or flight.
(09:08):
And so your nervous systemdoesn't understand the
difference between a bear thatis coming after you or you
trying to build a businesswithin this extractive
capitalistic system, becausethey both register as threats in
your nervous system, and soyour nervous system is going to
do the thing that it knows whatto do, which is binary choices,
right, and so the pain pointmarketing.
(09:30):
What it does is it preys on thisdesire for freedom, because,
again, when you're in binarychoice mode, you're feeling
trapped, and so you know yourbody is craving that sense of
exhale, that freedom, that thenuance, the choice.
And so, because pain pointmarketing understands this,
(09:51):
they're going to paint thatpicture for you and even if that
picture is something that, like, you might not even want, right
?
Like I know, I have fallen forpain point marketing from a
particular business coach andshe showed pictures of her life
that had nothing to do with howI wanted to live my life.
(10:11):
Right, she had pictures of herat Burning man and going to a
bunch of different parties and,you know, renting these gorgeous
houses on the ocean side,gorgeous houses on the ocean
side, and that's totally not myvibe.
But what it did is it preyed onmy own desire to create freedom
in my own life.
(10:32):
Now, this is particularlycompelling.
If your present moment is sopainful for you that you want to
run away, the freedom picturecatalyzes that disassociation
and again we're looking atdopamine here as that
neuromodulator.
It shifts that focus from hereand now, what you are
experiencing in this moment,here and now, which feels
(10:52):
incredibly painful, which youmight equate with suffering, to
something outside of yourpresent experience.
Your body, your life and againI want to bring in this like
trauma-informed nuance in thislens is part of our work of
doing trauma-informed regulationwith our clients is bringing
(11:12):
them back into the here and now,even if it's painful, even if
it feels like suffering.
We want them to reallyunderstand what is happening in
their body in this presentmoment, so that they are able to
move forward with regulationinstead of moving forward from a
place of fight or flight.
Step four is that they highlightstudent success stories, but
(11:38):
only the best of the best, onlythe top student success stories
are highlighted and they tellstories of you know this client
used to be just like you and howyou know their overnight
success was so easy and thisprogram was the magic sauce that
, like, made everything happen.
And I want to just like focusin on this.
(12:01):
Concept of easy easy ishighlighted, it is underscored
and it is in bold.
And concept of easy Easy ishighlighted, it is underscored
and it is in bold.
And one of the things that Ireally want to like like stress
here is that a lot of the thingsthat we want to accomplish, a
lot of the goals that we want toaccomplish and again I'm going
to bring this in the context ofbusiness like business is meant
(12:23):
to be hard and I don't say thatin the like you know, martyred,
like I just love torturingmyself sort of way.
But you know, what business doesis.
It asks you to look at your owntriggers within yourself.
(12:43):
It's asking you to identifysome of these belief systems
that don't work for you.
It's asking you to move throughlayers of things that haven't
felt safe historically for you.
And then you put that in thecontext of like society and
culture and the collective, andwe are fighting against
(13:07):
essentially this extractivecapitalistic system and so like
to do that it is really fuckinghard.
And so you know, in a littlebit I'm going to name some other
coaches that I think who aredoing a really excellent job of
relational marketing.
But in each of their niches,what I see is they are trying to
(13:30):
do really hard work.
So why would their business andhow their business comes into
fruition, why would that?
Be super easy.
I also think that we have thisidea, particularly in the last,
I want to say like five to10-ish.
If it's not easy, people tendto not want to do that thing and
(13:53):
what we're seeing is there'sthis like lack of resiliency
that is showing up in ourcollective culture and to me,
like this is the underpinning ofa lot of different cultural
dynamics that I don'tnecessarily want to get into,
but, like, like one of thethings that I see nowadays is
it's so hard to haveconversations with somebody who
(14:14):
disagrees with you, like that isa hard thing to do, and I find
that people are like, likemoving away from that dynamic
because it feels so hard insteadof actually sitting there and
having the hard conversationwith somebody that they love and
you know, trying to move thecollective needle towards
(14:34):
understanding instead ofdisagreement, and this like
fissure that we're seeing, right.
And so if, at every point ofdifficulty, you were hit with
this pain point, marketing thatsays, oh no, it's easy, you just
have to download this thing,you just have to take my program
, you just have to work with mething, you just have to take my
(14:56):
program, you just have to workwith me.
Again, it creates that dynamicof rescuer and victim.
And so, you know, one of thethings that I really want to
highlight about all of myprograms is that there is a
variety of results that happenthrough moving through my
programs.
Right, I do have clients whoyou know.
I have one client who's aboutto bill half a million dollars
(15:17):
this year through an offeringthat she created through this
program, through my program, andI also have students who go
through my business outcome asmentorship program and decide
that they don't actually want tocreate an online business.
I think that, for me, actuallywant to create an online
(15:37):
business.
I think that for me, the morecompelling story is, did moving
through the program help you getcloser to who you are?
And I would say, fundamentally,you know, everyone looks
different on the outside betweennot following the path to
online coach world to being ableto, like, create this amazing
(15:58):
business on the other end of it,the common thread between them
all is that they all feel closerto themselves and they all feel
closer to their purpose.
They understand a bit moreabout what drives them and then
they're able to, you know,create their life from that
place.
And to me, that is so much moreimportant than you know.
(16:20):
I had one coach where I tookher business program and she had
us report each month how muchwe were making each month.
So then that that way she couldtake that into her marketing
and say like, oh, my studentscollectively made x, you know,
thousands of dollars, um, inthis last month and so like.
(16:44):
To me, like that is just.
Oh, I guess I guess the thingthat bothers me about that is
just there's a superficial layerto it that doesn't account for
the nuance and differentexperiences and different life
paths that everyone is meant totake.
(17:05):
So something that I wrote onthis post is like pointing out
the buildup feeling right so,between the pain points, the
freedom picture and the successstories that that wave of
dopamine is like finding itscrest, and to me, like that is
like where pain point marketingis like yes, like we're hitting
(17:27):
the nail on the head.
And to me, like that's like apretty gross way to sell to
people.
Step five is to tell people toinvest in themselves.
This is the perfect time, asthat wave is cresting, to make
the offer, and oftentimes theprice is named as a investment.
(17:48):
This one word is subtlymanipulative, and I say that as
somebody who has actually usedthis word before.
And so full disclosure.
I've changed a lot of the copyon my website.
If anybody out there who islike going through my website
and sees the word invest onthere, please let me know.
I think I've caught it all, butthere might be a couple of
(18:11):
words out there that I haven'tcaught.
But there might be a couple ofwords out there that I haven't
caught, but I moved away fromthat word because it feels
manipulative.
Think about how you justify themoney that you're spending when
you're making an investmentversus when something is a cost.
And so I'm really explicit thatthis is a cost because I bet
that you're willing to spend alittle bit more outside of your
(18:34):
comfort zone.
If something is an investment,then that's something that I see
, that's vocabulary that I see alot with coaches these days,
and something that feels likekind of icky to me.
And then step six is to createpressure.
This is the cherry on top right.
So if that, that, that dopaminewave hasn't pushed this person
(18:59):
to buy yet, the little cherry ontop is the seller is going to
sprinkle in a little push ofpressure in the form of scarcity
and FOMO.
Pain point marketing relies onpushing you into an adrenalized
fight or flight state tomobilize and make a purchase
right.
Essentially, like both withrelational marketing and with
(19:24):
pain point marketing, what we'rehoping for is that the person
on the other side is going tomove towards us.
Pain point marketing uses thenervous system and again,
nervous system and dopamine topush people into a state of
fight or flight so that they'llgo and make that purchase.
In relational marketing, um,what we're hoping for is this
(19:47):
person feels so understood,they're in a parasympathetic
state, they are feelingempowered in their choice,
they're they're looking at theirchoice as an autonomous one,
and so then when they movetowards us to make a purchase
that comes from a place wherethere's regulation, there's
understanding, there'ssovereignty, right, and to me,
(20:09):
like that is the fundamental,like biggest difference between
relational marketing and painpoint marketing is what nervous
system state is that person inwho is buying?
So, just in case that buyerisn't quite there yet, that last
little bit of pressure will getyou there.
That oftentimes looks like avery, very narrow window of a
(20:34):
launch cycle.
There's a reason that businessalcoholist mentorship I am my
launch cycle is actually twomonths because I want people to
like A if they haven't heardabout it before, like I want
them to understand that theyhave like a full two months to
like make that decision.
If they haven't heard about itbefore and they've been thinking
(20:55):
about it and they're sitting onthe fence about it, I want them
to come to that decision from aregulated place, and so it's
not uncommon for my launchcycles to be really, really slow
in the beginning and thentowards the end is when, like,
most of my people end up buying.
And it's because I've giventhem all that space to consider.
I've given them all that spaceto like, think about, you know,
(21:20):
like my program is a year long,like that's a big commitment,
both financially and with time,and so like, does that make
sense to fit that into your lifein this moment?
Right, and um, I think that,like, short launch cycles paired
with, um, artificial reasons tocreate scarcity, right, um, I
(21:46):
don't think there's any reasonfor something that pre-recorded
to have a ton of pressure, thatthat's like the, the, the
perfect offering to not putpressure on to people.
And yet those are the offeringsthat I see with the most
pressure, where you know youclick and you buy one thing, and
(22:08):
then you go through theirfunnel and there's an upsell
after an upsell, after an upsell, and this deal is going to
expire after 10 minutes and youhave to buy this now, otherwise
it's going to go up in price,and so to me that's oh so, very,
very icky.
So a couple more things that Iwant to just share as we're
(22:29):
going through this.
Let's just take a moment andsit with the body.
I've just given you a ton ofinformation.
These are likely things thatyou've thought about and felt
before and you might not havebeen able to like name it as
such, right?
So sit with us all for a moment.
(22:50):
How does going through theanatomy of pain point marketing
feel in your body?
And I'll just give you a momentto like just sit with whatever
is arising for you.
So for me, when I sit with theseconcepts of pain point
(23:12):
marketing and feel where itlands in my body, the immediate
thing that comes up for me isshame.
I feel shame in my own body forhow many times I've fallen for
this kind of marketing.
Also for how I have used thesetactics myself.
You know, like I've sharedpretty explicitly that I have
taken business courses beforeand this is what I was taught.
(23:34):
I've been taught formulas andtemplates, and you know this
whole idea around don't let thatperson get off the sales call
without a yes.
And so we need to find ways toadjust these objections before
they're even having them, waysto adjust these objections
(23:55):
before they're even having them,and you know the ways in which
content marketing is really sortof taught these days, like I
don't see anything else outthere that isn't pain point
marketing.
So I myself have used thesetactics before.
Luckily, I didn't use them forvery long because it didn't feel
good in my body and I was likeI'm going to do something
different.
I have no idea where this istaking me, but I can't do it
this way anymore.
(24:17):
I also feel anger that this isthe water that we all swim in
these days, I think inparticular in the online and
social media spaces.
It's one of the reasons why Ifeel this pull to move.
I don't know if I'll ever getoff Instagram completely, but I
do feel a pull to move towardslong-form content.
(24:39):
I feel like long-form contentis inherently going to be less
pain pointy, because part of theum, part of that like push
energy that you feel from yourcontent creators is because they
feel limited in their space.
(25:00):
Right like instagram only givesus 10 slides to work with and
you know if you put up a storyit's like one minute at a time
and so to me, like as somebodywho's coming in with this like
creative energy, it feels reallystifling to put it in those
boxes.
So, yeah, I feel anger.
(25:21):
I also feel rage that I amseeing this tidal wave of pain
point marketing being used tosell nervous system work and
somatics.
I think that nervous systemwork and somatics are sacred,
sacred medicines.
Lindsay and I spent this lastepisode 143, talking about all
that, and I have a feeling thatwe're not quite done talking
(25:44):
about it because it's justrampant.
Because I talk about thenervous system, the algorithm
loves showing me these 30 daysomatic trauma healing courses
that I need to take and, youknow it, it just feels so gross
that it's being marketed in thisway, because that is not what
(26:06):
nervous system work is meant todo essentially.
So I am in the middle oflaunching business alchemist
mentorship right now, and noneof these tactics are going to
show up in my content, eventhough if I use pain point
marketing, I would probably getmore enrollments in BAM if I
(26:27):
marketed in that way.
And the reason why I refuse touse pain point marketing in my
content is because I don't thinkmore is better.
I think that a lot of ways thatpeople are taught how to do
business these days is alwaysthis idea of more is better, and
(26:47):
I fundamentally disagree withthat.
I think that the work that we doin BAM is really hard.
Like I sort of alluded tobefore, we are disentangling
threads of trauma, years ofmisunderstanding.
You know stories and beliefsthat no longer align for you.
We're restructuring whatcommunity support looks like.
(27:10):
We're dismantling theseextractive business practices
and choosing something that,honestly, like I feel like it
doesn't always feel like it hasform, and so I'm not looking for
more people to be on thatjourney with me.
If I use pain point marketing,what it would attract is
(27:32):
entrepreneurs who are idealisticin their desire to deconstruct
capitalism while still wantingcapitalism to work for them, and
what I would be attracting arepeople who basically want to
continue to act like wolves andput on a sheep's outfit, and
(27:53):
that's not what I'm interestedin.
So, yeah, I'm going to get lesspeople.
In addition to that, it wouldrepel the exact kind of people
that I want to attract in andwho I think are going to find
belonging in the BAM community.
We are a small army of witchy,sensitive, nerdy, feral weirdos
(28:19):
who see business as a spiritualpractice, and that is not the
journey for everybody.
That's not the journey forreally most of the entrepreneurs
that I see out in the world,for really most of the
entrepreneurs that I see out inthe world, and so you know, I
gave a lot of examples of whatpain point marketing looks like.
I also wanted to give you someexamples of what relational
marketing looks like, and so Ihave some folks that I want to
(28:43):
send you to, and you know acouple of them are horse people,
some of them are business folks, some of them are creative
mentors.
You know, even if you're notparticularly interested in
horses, let's say, because noteverybody's into horses like
just go and read through some oftheir content and and just like
(29:05):
sink into what it feels like tobe in their spaces.
So the first two I want to nameare Lockie Phillips from
Emotional Horsemanship andShannon Bahan from Humming Horse
Equestrian.
These two are my two horsetrainers.
So it's like not a coincidencethat you're going to see me
naming folks that I either amstudents of, or they were
(29:25):
students of mine, or they'restudents of mine, or they're
collaborators of mine, or somemix and combination of those.
Those three roles right isbecause, you know, if I find
relational marketing to be soimportant in my own business,
you better damn well understandthat when I choose to work with
somebody as my coach.
(29:46):
I'm going to be leaning intopeople who I also see doing this
relational marketing thing,even if they they don't have the
vocabulary vocabulary to put onthat on the way that they're
marketing.
So, lockie Phillips, emotionalHorsemanship.
Shannon Ban from Humming Horse,equestrian.
What they have in common isthey are trying to shift the
(30:08):
dynamics of the horse world,which is actually incredibly
abusive, and abusive to bothhorses and to equestrians, I
would say and they're reallytrying to bring in a safe,
relational dynamic between horseand equestrian.
(30:30):
And so I think about mysessions with them as like,
almost like, translationsessions.
They're not even horse trainingsessions per se.
They're helping me understandmy horses better.
The other folks I want to namehere Lindsay Lockett, if you've
(30:51):
been around with me, she's beenon my podcast a bajillion times.
I've already referenced that.
We just did one, 143.
And like, the thing I want topoint out with her stuff is that
(31:27):
it is long right Like.
She's also another woman who islike long form content and that
is because the concepts that weget into it's so hard to make
them fit in the boxes.
Another one in that category isSarah Cook from Freelance
Feminist.
She's got a beautiful sub stackand you know, again, like sub
stack creates a differentplatform where long form content
is a little bit more acceptedand to me, like when I jump into
her writing, into her writing,it is again nuanced, it is
(31:51):
tender, there's zeroprescription, and so like that's
really kind of what I'm lookingfor when I'm looking at
relational marketing.
Other folks in this world EmmaRose Tate she's a dear friend of
mine, she's also a businesscoach and you know she talks
(32:20):
about very, very similar thingsto me Nadine Zumat and Cecily
Saylor, also worth mentioninghere.
Nadine talks about money,trauma and Cecily Saylor, she
runs Typewriter Tarot and shehas a series on this podcast
with me where we compare andcontrast, uh, the tarot and the
itching again.
These are folks who are doingdifficult work right, and
(32:43):
difficult work means that we arefor lack of a better way of
saying this like, like we're not, we're not dumbing our shit
down, right.
So the markers that I look forwhen I look at relational
marketing is are they gettingsuper fucking nerdy about their
(33:03):
communities?
Are they listening?
Are they getting really curiousabout what these folks are
experiencing and then creatingcontent that helps those people
feel understood?
Are they honest, like that'ssuch an important one is like I
feel like I now have this likelike sniffer when it comes to
(33:24):
honesty in the social mediaspaces, because I can fucking
like sniff that stuff out whenpeople are being completely
dishonest and when they'reshowing a facade and the energy
of it just feels like just realsticky.
Yeah, the energy just feelsreally sticky to me.
(33:45):
Um, are they focused oncreating oxytocin and serotonin
connection rather than dopamineconnection?
And that is going to feelreally different in my body.
It also means that it's probablygoing to take a little bit
longer for people to warm up,and so, for example, I followed
(34:08):
him for years and I had him onmy podcast and then I've been on
his podcast and like it wasjust this like like back and
forth of like quite honestly,kind of testing the waters to
see if he was the right horsetrainer for me.
And it was only after yearsthat I signed up to do private
sessions with him and then alsogo to his in-person clinics.
(34:28):
And you know, the reallywonderful thing about relational
marketing is that you end upcreating a very, very loyal base
of community members, becauseit's built on trust, because
it's built on accountability andit's built on transparency and
honesty.
I also think that when I lookat relational marketing, there's
(34:54):
a really lovely balance betweeneducation and sharing the work
through stories and livedexperiences.
And so to me, like I, I can getso nerdy about these concepts
and I honestly love sharingbecause I want people to be
(35:14):
educated, even if folks neverwork with me.
What I love to do is teach andI love to educate people and
help them see through some ofthe stuff that like is so
pervasive in our, in our cultureand through that process.
You know, hopefully you'remaking different decisions in
your life when it comes to whoyou're choosing as a coach, who
(35:35):
you're choosing, as you know,even like in your personal life,
who you're choosing as apartner, who you're choosing for
your therapist.
Right, like, all of thesethreads of finding safety and
finding feeling into if thatperson is regulating or
dysregulating, like it ripplesout into everything that we do.
(35:57):
And then, um, just to like,continue to like.
You know, bring this home.
Is this idea of like.
Stop simplifying shit.
That's complicated.
That's like one of the thingsthat just drives me nuts about
using pain point marketing withsomatics and with nervous system
(36:19):
regulation work is, because Iknow how complicated and nuanced
nervous system work in somaticscan be, because I have been in
that world for the last decadeand if it feels too good to be
true, you know like I'm seeingthose same ads that you're
(36:41):
seeing.
Heal your nervous system, healyour trauma in 30 days by using
this somatic exercise program.
Like, doesn't that sound likefishy right off of the bat?
You know, I've talked with somany people in my DMs who have
shared with me that they'vetaken these classes or they've
bought that program and theyfeel immediately icky right
(37:03):
after and they share that thereason why they ended up signing
up for those programs isbecause of FOMO.
The reason why they ended upsigning up for those programs is
because of FOMO.
Like, you put enough pressureon a person until they buy and
at the end of their buyingprocess they don't actually feel
supported, they don't feelnourished, they actually feel
FOMO.
(37:23):
So that is all I have to sayabout pain point marketing.
Actually, that's not all I haveto say.
I'm sure I've got lots more tosay, but that's all I have to
say about pain point marketing.
Actually, that's not all I haveto say.
I'm sure I've got lots more tosay, but that's all I have to
say today about pain pointmarketing and you know, like I
had shared, if you're hearingthis on my podcast, I'm going to
be putting a lot more stuff upon YouTube.
(37:44):
These days I'm already startingto feel that pull, and so if
you are somebody who's intoYouTube, please come subscribe,
and if you're listening on thepodcast, subscribe through
whatever platform you'relistening through, and that
really helps other folks, justlike you find this work and I
(38:04):
would love to just continue tobuild this community.
So thanks for listening andwe'll see you soon.
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