January 18, 2025 • 74 mins
Welcome back to the Emotional Alchemy Podcast! After a seven-month hiatus, Kat HoSoo Lee returns with a heartfelt episode featuring her husband, Shawn Frazier. Together, they delve into the life-changing events of the past year, the strength of their relationship, and practical frameworks for navigating life and love.
Highlights:
•Kat’s Seven-Month Hiatus: The emotional journey of supporting her father’s stroke recovery in Korea and the lessons learned.
•Relationship Resilience: How Kat and Shawn maintained their bond during her extended time away and the concept of treating their relationship as a “third entity.”
•Secure Relationships: Shawn shares insights on fostering safety, adaptability, and trust in partnerships.
•Life Shifts and Prioritization: Kat reflects on shifting business and personal priorities after her time in Korea.
•Emotional Alchemy: Shawn’s perspective on integrating emotions and maintaining balance through life’s challenges.
Takeaways:
•The importance of mutual generosity and curiosity in relationships.
•Lessons on navigating crises as a team and maintaining connection despite physical distance.
•Frameworks for building and sustaining secure, fulfilling partnerships.
Theme Music Credit - Forest Lullaby by Olexy @olexymusic
Kat HoSoo Lee is an Emotional Alchemy Coach, Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Emotional Alchemy Podcast.
She loves playing in the space where science and spirituality converge because this is where we get to experience emotional alchemy. In her work, she educates space-holders about somatic physiology and environmental biology so they can deepen their practices of listening and presence which ultimately helps them expand their capacity to hold space for others.
As a Spiritual Business Mentor, she guides soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. The work bridges the emotional landscape with practical tools which allow them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, relational marketing and purposeful service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kat Lee (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Emotional Alchemy podcast.
This is Kat Lee and I havetaken a big break away from this
podcast the last time Ipublished something was back in
early June and it is now earlyJanuary of 25 and had to take a
(00:24):
big break for big tectonicshifting reasons.
And today's guest is myfavorite human.
This is Sean Frazier.
He is my husband and I broughthim on for two reasons.
Um, I do best in storytellingwhen I have someone to sort of
(00:50):
like, respond to and share spacewith and answer questions, and
so I've asked him on to sort ofhelp me tell the story of my dad
.
And I'm sure that I'm going tocontinue to have those stories
trickle through the podcast andthrough Instagram and through
the newsletter and all that.
(01:11):
But I thought just sort oflaying the foundational
groundwork of like, hey, wherehas Kat been for seven months
would be a good place to startand Sean's going to help me tell
that story and Sean's going tohelp me tell that story.
And, um, I don't know about you, but whenever there's big
things that happen in life, Ithink it is a big opportunity to
(01:33):
sort of shift and recalibrateand really understand what is of
value and one of the gosh, I'mlike already gonna start crying.
One of the the biggest thingsthat I feel like I've walked
(01:55):
away from this experience is thevalue of secure relationships
and, um, I've not always beenthe best at relationships and I
think that Sean has been areally huge teacher, partner,
co-creator of of thisrelationship and he has helped
(02:20):
me sort of sink into my owncapacity and and ability to to
communicate better.
And you know, one of the thingsthat a client told me recently
is like oh, how do?
you know all this stuff aboutnervous systems and how to
communicate, and and I was like,because I've been there and I
(02:43):
continue to do this work, andand she was like you know,
that's so surprising.
I just thought you were perfectat this and I really want to
take the veil off of beingperfect at relationships, at
nervous system regulation, atemotional alchemy, alchemy, um,
(03:09):
and we should really like that'ssuch a myth from the coaching
industry is like let me stand ontop of this like precipice and
show you this, uh, curated,filtered version of what you
think you want your life to looklike, and and really like I,
one of the things I am so proudof in my life is this
relationship that I have with myhusband, and you know we've
talked about, you know,potentially having him come on
(03:31):
and do several of these episodestogether, because I want to
sort of pop the hood on a strongpartnership and talk to you and
, you know, reflect between himand I about, like, what makes
our relationship work.
And so two intentions in thisepisode is Sean's going to help
(03:54):
me tell this story and we'realso going to talk about some of
the practical frameworks thatwe have in terms of our, our own
relationship, and I hope thatthat will apply to whatever
relationship you're navigatingin your life, whether it's a
romantic partnership or, youknow, relationship with a family
(04:14):
member or, honestly, like thisis gonna sound kind of silly,
but, like I, take our frameworksand apply them to horse
training and dog training andchicken wrangling, like it's
totally applicable to all theseaspects.
So that's what we're going todo today.
Shawn Frazier (04:35):
Sounds good.
Yeah, you ready to start?
Kat Lee (04:38):
Yes.
Shawn Frazier (04:40):
Okay, so we'll go from.
Kat Lee (04:42):
Wait before we start, okay, Okay, so we'll go from
Wait before we start.
Okay, I'm having troublestepping out of the interview.
Words Words.
Shawn Frazier (04:53):
Seems like you're stepping out of words right now
.
Kat Lee (04:58):
Can you just introduce yourself and talk about who you
are?
Sean Frazier husband.
Shawn Frazier (05:04):
Sure, I'm Sean Frazier, husband of yours.
You know we've been in arelationship for eight-ish years
, going from long distance.
When I was in Nevada, you werein California.
You moved to Vancouver.
We were longer distance.
(05:29):
You got trapped there duringCOVID.
It was a nightmare.
We persevered through a lot ofups and downs.
You moved down to Nevada, thenwe both moved up to Washington.
We got married along the way.
I bought 10 acres with you, meand you bought 10 acres with a
barn, two mini horses, two babyregular horses, a dozen and a
(05:53):
half chickens, a turkey and agarden, and we live together and
we are life partners together,and that's probably the relevant
details of who I am in relationto you.
That's enough of the stage, Ithink.
Kat Lee (06:16):
We were not just in a relationship for eight years.
I had a massive crush on you inhigh school.
Shawn Frazier (06:23):
Likewise.
Kat Lee (06:24):
And so we knew each other between the ages of what
15 to 18 ish, and then this waspre Facebook, pre social media
days.
And so we kind of disappearedfrom each other's lives for
about 14 years, before I foundyou on Facebook.
Shawn Frazier (06:45):
Yeah.
Kat Lee (06:46):
So, yes, yes, context for our relationship.
I also want to just add that,like you're a good guy, like
when people ask me you know, youknow what's like?
I feel like the only way that Ican really summarize it is he's
(07:12):
a good guy, and what I mean bythat is you have this internally
directed compass of likemorality.
I want to say morality, and theright thing yeah, like we joke
that the thing that you keepsaying over and over again, as
you're like moving through theworld, is like that's just not
(07:33):
right like you know yeah, I meanthere's yeah, um, but I think
that sort of that good guycompass has, um, has been
important just in terms of youknow, we come across, let's say,
(07:54):
a difficult conversation thatwe need to be having and even if
it's a difficult thing, yousort of lean into like what's
the right thing to do here,what's the kindest thing to do
here, what is the like, even ifit is temporarily really fucking
(08:17):
uncomfortable, what can I do tosort of look at the longterm of
this?
And to me, like I think thatthat's, that's a good guy,
that's a good guy quality yeahthat's.
Shawn Frazier (08:29):
That's part of the.
Yeah, yeah okay so you havequestions for me.
We had kind of we have.
This is kind of a before,during and after story, so we'll
start with before, sure, sowe'll go back to june 2024.
Um, I'm in my second year ofbeing a bus driver.
(08:54):
Finally get a vacation.
So we have, I have a vacation,oh I forgot that.
Kat Lee (08:59):
This is how it all happened, yeah so we're hanging
out, you know.
Shawn Frazier (09:04):
You're podcasting , seeing clients moving and
shaking.
You're at the farm.
Um, we're thinking aboutgrowing food.
We're thinking about gettingchickens.
We get the chickens.
That's what's going on with thefarm, and then things are going
good.
Lindsay was down, hung out fora week or so.
(09:27):
She goes home the next day.
Kat Lee (09:29):
Y'all know Lindsay, she's on the podcast.
A lot Lindsay Lockett, yeah.
Shawn Frazier (09:33):
Lindsay Lockett yeah, so she goes home the next
day.
We're hanging out together.
I have one more day after thatvacation.
Kat Lee (09:44):
You get a phone call and I think, for context, my
parents never call me.
It's actually been like kind ofa painful part of my
relationship with my parents isI've always wanted more
closeness with them and they'vebeen distant, I think my whole
(10:12):
life and there's an aspect ofour relationship where they feel
like they need to protect mefrom themselves, if that makes
sense.
And so to get a phone call frommy parents, like immediately my
heart is out of my body and um,it's my mom on the other line
(10:34):
and she's panicking, she's atthe hospital, my dad has had a
stroke and um and um, I and thisis like again, if we can talk
about the safety in ourrelationship is getting off.
(10:57):
That phone call, I think is thehardest I've cried in my life.
Um, and I think a lot of thework that I've done up until
that point has been aboutexpressing feelings and, you
know, being in touch with yourbody and understanding like
where all these things arecoming from, but like the grief
that swept over me was justunbelievable yeah and um, I just
(11:22):
remember like tapping my chestand saying to you over and over
again I just didn't get enoughtime with him.
I didn't get enough time withhim and you know, you sort of
went straight into action mode.
Um, you like hopped online,bought a plane ticket I'm like
(11:46):
sobbing as you're packing up myclothes, um, and I was basically
on a plane the next day yeah, Iremember.
Shawn Frazier (11:59):
For both of us it was like I'll see you when I
see you.
Kat Lee (12:03):
Yeah.
Shawn Frazier (12:05):
Because there was no.
I'm going to go for a couple ofweeks and get things situated.
It was like you're going to gofor as long as you need to go.
You'll see what your dad'sconditions, like when you get
there?
Kat Lee (12:19):
Yeah, and I wasn't sure if my dad was even going to be
alive.
When I got there, you know, um,um, the airline pilot like it
was either the day before orafter father's day as I was
flying out, and, um, the pilotcomes online and it's like, hey,
if there's any, if there areany dads on board, like happy
(12:39):
father's day.
And you know, don't forget towish your father's uh, you know,
happy father's day.
And and I just remember hearingthat and just like sobbing and,
um, like I cried the whole wayto Korea, I think.
And then when I got there,because we didn't have a return
(12:59):
ticket back, it was just like,you know, I'll see you when I
get there, or I'll see you whenI see you.
I had no idea that I was goingto be gone for five months.
Yeah, um, you know, just sort oflike right off the bat, when
people ask me how my dad isdoing, um, today, I the most
(13:21):
honest answer that I can say ishe's doing okay.
He had a major brain surgery.
You know we had to.
The doctors had to try to placea stent in.
It didn't work, so he had, youknow, an ischemic stroke, which
(13:42):
is essentially like a blood clotthat gets lodged in the brain
and, um, it was on the left sideof his brain and, um, the stent
surgery didn't go as well asthey had hoped, and then he had
a hemorrhagic stroke a coupleweeks after that first one.
(14:02):
And so you know, today, as aswe're recording this, he can
walk with a cane and withassistance, which I think is
amazing he will probably neverhave full use of his hand his
right hand, um, and speech isprobably not going to come back
(14:24):
fully, and because his strokewas on the left side of his
brain, a lot of the logicalsystems have come offline.
And so, you know, even to thisday, he struggles with things
that are very sort of logical,like what is your name, what is
(14:46):
the day of the week, what is, umsort of like.
If you think about, like,categorizations, yeah, um, and
yet you know, one of the, thethings that I really just want
to, like say that I'm gratefulfor in the time that I've had
with him.
Like, say that I'm grateful forin the time that I've had with
him in Korea that four and ahalf months is.
(15:07):
My dad was always a verylogical, stoic, closed off kind
of a guy and, you know, prior tohis stroke.
I could probably name thenumber of times that he has said
I love you on one hand, like Ican think of like four instances
(15:28):
for sure.
I kind of have to like, like,make the best of assumptions and
think there must have been afifth one in there you know, I
didn't hear what he said.
Shawn Frazier (15:37):
It must have been .
Kat Lee (15:37):
I love you yeah, like there must have been a fifth one
in there somewhere.
But I can think of fourdistinct instances where he has
said I love you.
And in the four and a halfmonths that I got to spend with
him in Korea, um, it was I loveyou every morning, I love you
every evening and I got like alifetime of I love you's.
(15:58):
Um, in that time that I hadwith him, even on, like, there
were some really, really harddays.
I think even on the hard dayswe could at least say I love you
to each other.
So I find that so fascinatingabout the brain is the sort of
differentiation between the leftand the right hemispheres, and
(16:21):
you know, that's been one of thefrustrating things about having
him go through such asystemized.
Is that a word?
Systemized?
Yes, you know, doctors assumelike, oh, if you can't name this
(16:48):
shape, if you can't name that ahat is a hat, that you can't
name what your name is, thenyou've lost sort of the higher
level functionings and in myexperience with my dad is he's
not lost any of those higherlevel functionings and the
abstract thinking and, um, theemotions.
(17:08):
He's lost sort of like I don'tknow, like the first part of the
alphabet, but he can rememberthe last half of the alphabet.
Shawn Frazier (17:17):
You know, yeah, um, so yeah, I'll just pause
there so, in the context of umrelationships, you're in a
situation where you're away fromme, everything has been paused
(17:40):
and put on hold.
Paused, unput, unhold.
I think were you seeing clients?
You definitely weren'trecording podcasts.
I don't think you were reallymuch on social media.
Kat Lee (17:53):
I wasn't on social media very much.
I emailed my client list and Ihad just sold out BAM.
Do you remember when?
Shawn Frazier (18:05):
I left, I had just sold out BAM.
Do you remember?
Kat Lee (18:06):
when I left, I had just sold out BAM so I ended up
refunding everybody in thatgroup program because I couldn't
possibly think about hostingthose and I had had a sort of
short roster of one-on-oneclients and I emailed everybody
on the short roster and was likehey, like I'm for sure taking
the next month or so off andI'll let you know when my
(18:27):
schedule opens up and it willlikely be very limited and there
will have to be like thisunderstanding that I might have
to cancel last minute because ofmy dad and luckily everyone on
my client list was just sounderstanding and supportive
(18:50):
just so understanding andsupportive and yeah, yeah.
Shawn Frazier (18:52):
So I know while you were gone, there was many
things that I realized about ourrelationship, like areas where
I missed you uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh.
Kat Lee (19:04):
Tears on both sides.
It's a hard time to think about, huh yeah, keep this interview
(19:53):
rolling.
Shawn Frazier (19:53):
So I was learning a lot of things about our
relationship that made me feelvery strong feelings and
confirmation that, wow, I pickedthe right woman, you know cause
I missed you so much.
And I remember a story that youhad told me while you were
(20:16):
there that you were trying toget into one of your dad's
accounts something and your mom,you didn't know the password.
Your mom's like, oh, it'sprobably this nailed it first
try.
Yeah, first try, first guess soI guess in the context of
relationships, because we'refilling people in on where you
(20:39):
were, why you were gone, likewhat were the things that you
were noticing, maybe about yourparents relationships, that
relationship that you didn'tnotice before, and maybe like
our relationship that you didn'tknow or notice before.
Good question, thank you.
Kat Lee (21:03):
Thank you, it me a little while to get it out, got
there, I think, in terms of myparents' relationship.
They've been together for fouryears and my parents were an
(21:27):
arranged marriage and so I know,like I know the first half of
their marriage very well.
My mom didn't really want toget married to my dad and, you
know, kind of felt like she hadlost out on a lot of
opportunities.
She never got to date.
It was just this is the guyyou're going to marry and here
(21:51):
you go, have a life and havebabies, and she didn't feel like
she had a lot of choice.
So I'm very familiar with thatpart of the story where, you
know, there was duty and love,but it felt like the love was
(22:12):
because of the family unit, notnecessarily like love for each
other, um, and I think the thingthat became really clear to me
because this is the longest I'vespent with my parents since I
left the house is that love foreach other has grown to like a
(22:37):
devotion that like I can't, Icouldn't really comprehend Until
like I could relate it to myown relationship with you, um,
and so there's there's an aspectof my parents where they've
(23:00):
grown to love each other through, sort of like, maybe not the
best circumstances andcircumstances that we as
americans don't fully understandor comprehend.
Um, but there is such a deepdevotion that they have for each
other and such a deep love thatthey have for each other that,
like it's hard to sort of.
(23:20):
Yeah, it's it, you know.
Like we want to talk aboutsecure relationships and, um, I
think that my parents have hadto really forge that secure
relationship through not thebest circumstances and also like
(23:42):
fighting through their own.
You know, they don't have thelanguage around this, but like
their own attachment style.
My dad is a very avoidantperson, my mom is very anxious,
and they've had to find a happymedium that works for both of
them.
And it really does work forboth of them.
Yeah, I think, in the contextof our relationship, the
(24:06):
validation that I got, I mean,mean, I knew I was going to miss
you going away for that long,but I think the validation that
I got was like oh, here's aperson who I can do hard things
with.
Yeah, you know, um, and to me,like that feels like such an
(24:29):
essential part of a securerelationship is like life is
gonna be hard, like there aregonna be moments where you know
just, life is gonna happen youknow parents get sick, you know
there are natural disastersaround us, there are financial
(24:52):
struggles, there's you know anynumber of things and
difficulties.
I feel like a really importantfilter that I didn't realize
that I needed until I had it wasuntil I had.
(25:12):
It was like, hey, does thisperson make difficult things
easier or harder?
Because I've had tworelationships, two serious
relationships before you andboth of those relationships I
can unequivocally say that likeI couldn't surrender into how
hard or how difficult thatsituation was, whatever the
situation could be, cause I wasworried about how it was bland
(25:34):
for the other person and tryingto protect them from that other
thing, and I think that therewere a lot of sort of like
missed learning opportunitiesthat I could have had,
surrendering into difficultsituations because I didn't have
the right partner.
Shawn Frazier (25:50):
I guess the other , one of the other major things
that happened that I can thinkof you.
You know, business is put onhold, you're away from home for
an unknown amount of time andthen it seemed like you had
(26:15):
somewhat of a shift inpriorities.
When you came, when you gotback and after you know several
weeks, those were kind ofbecoming clear and seemed like
they were kind of solidifyingfor you.
Do you want to talk about howcertain things, maybe priorities
, shifted, what things maybe hada different perspective on?
Kat Lee (26:36):
I think I can share what I know now, because I feel
like the priority shifting isstill happening.
Feel like the priority shiftingis still happening.
Um, I think part of thatshifting is really looking at my
life and thinking about, like,like we have finite time, yeah,
(27:05):
you, and entropy is happeningall the time, like things left
to their own devices do notorder themselves, things left to
their own devices descend intochaos, and so what do I want to
spend my time doing?
(27:25):
What feels valuable, what feelslike it needs to be put into
order, has definitely been likea big sort of important shift
since I've been back.
I think a big part of that isprioritizing our relationship
(27:49):
and beyond that, I that isprioritizing our relationship.
Um, and beyond that, I would say, prioritizing, um, like, at
least in my personal life,prioritizing relationships that
feel nourishing and divestingfrom relationships that don't
feel nourishing.
And I think I can be even morespecific about that is I am, I
(28:11):
tend to be, a giver inrelationships and so, like, left
to my own devices, I will give80% and accept somebody's 20%,
and that's never happened in meand you 20%, and that's never
happened in me and you but sortof placing our relationship as a
(28:35):
model of like how I want tofeel in all of my relationships
has made me like really likesink into the few personal
relationships that I feel likesafe and secure in and and maybe
pull away some of my energy andrelationships and that might
(28:55):
even just look like, hey, likeI'm, I'm giving 50 instead of 80
now yeah, do you want to talkat all about maybe shifts and
how you see your business orprofessional slash career
trajectory?
(29:30):
having those few clients thatstayed with me through this
crisis and my family made merealize that I actually really,
really love one-on-one coaching.
I love the intimacy of aone-on-one coaching container
that lasts for several monthsand sometimes years container
that lasts for several monthsand sometimes years.
(29:50):
And like I think that there'sthis idea in the coaching world
of like, well, you need to scaleand you need to get bigger and
like you know, like the last twohigh and the output was so high
and like there were so manythings about that that just felt
(30:16):
unsustainable.
And so like, when I think abouthow do I want my business to
look, like moving forward, thethings I want to prioritize are
to have a really simple businesswith a low overhead and to have
every point to be like thetouchstone is like intimacy,
(30:40):
like how do we create moreintimacy?
Because I think coaching is anart form and I think that when
we industrialize this thing,that we do space holding, we
(31:00):
lose the intimacy.
And that like personal touch.
Because ultimately, like whatcoaching at least the way that I
think about coaching is likeit's about healing relational
wounds and sometimes you need asafe relational person to
practice that out with.
Think you can just do thatthrough automated videos and you
(31:33):
know, just here, watch this.
You know this workshop that Ihosted and expect to have that
same level of likeheart-to-heart connection that
you have with like true intimacy, yeah, and so I don't really
know what the structure ofthat's going to look like in the
business, but one of the biggifts that you've given me is
(31:54):
like the ability to actuallytake a step back from my
business and say like hey, billsare going to be okay, like
let's build something that likeyou want to be doing, like what
do you want your business toactually look like moving
forward?
And and having the ability tojust like receive that and do
(32:18):
that feels like such a gift.
Shawn Frazier (32:21):
Yeah.
So that's, I guess, how I wouldsegue into talking about things
more relationship-wise, securerelationship, because one of the
things that I've really valuedabout our relationship that
makes me feel secure is theability to adapt or be dynamic
(32:45):
without feeling like, uh-oh.
To adapt or be dynamic withoutfeeling like, oh, I have to
worry what my wife's going tothink if I want to take up this
hobby or this pastime or if Iwant to change my career in this
way.
So I guess maybe you actuallyalready answered that question
because I was going to.
(33:05):
I was going to ask kind ofabout where does that security
come from?
When you're thinking I want totake a massive shift in my
business, and we had thecomfortability to have the
conversation about if you scaleback in your business, what is
that going to look like and canwe afford it?
(33:27):
And it's like, well, if we'rewilling to make changes here,
here and here, you can go aheadand take all the time you need
to figure out what that wants,what you want that to look like.
Yeah, so I guess I'm just kindof reiterating that that's one
of the things that I feel reallygood about as far as being
secure in our relationship is Idon't feel like I have to be the
(33:50):
guy that you met and I don'tfeel like you have to be Catley
the coach.
Podcaster.
X, y, z.
Do you have any?
Like, from your experience, isthat?
Is that a pressure point onrelationships of people?
(34:10):
You know that I feel like I'mstuck in this role because I
can't change or else my partnermight not want to change with me
.
Like, do you have any?
Kat Lee (34:19):
Certainly I think that, like when we get into at least
a lot of my clients, likethey're getting into the
self-development work, they'regetting into nervous system
regulation work most of my, mypeople are women, and they tend
to be in heterosexual couples.
That just is sort of the folksthat you know seem to be in my
(34:42):
space.
Um, there's, there's thisfeeling almost of like well, I'm
changing, you should bechanging at the same pace too,
and there's not a lot of like.
I think that this actually goesinto like one of the frameworks
of our relationship, which isgive the most generous
(35:04):
assumption of the other personlike assume that that person is
doing their best yeah and youknow, just because, let's say,
with finances, I know that, likewe've talked about doing a
whole episode on finances, butjust sort of as a touch point,
is like you know you got ahandle of your finances and like
(35:27):
your understanding of financesbefore I did, and had you been
there, being like, well, howcome you don't know this yet?
Like I feel like that would havemade me shut down even more
about finances and feel likeeven more dumb, about you know,
wanting to make changes but notknowing how to and not having
the tools and the skills to.
(35:48):
And so you know, I think thatthat can apply to everything,
whether it's communication andbeing like well, why don't you
know how to communicate?
Well, it's like maybe becauseyou know your partner hasn't
read that book about nonviolentcommunication, or maybe he
hasn't taken that class thatyou've taken.
And so it's about how can you,um, how can you both be on the
(36:18):
same team in the midst of bigchange and in the midst of big
shifts?
And to me, like the conceptthat you came up with years ago
that I think is such a huge andimportant part of our
relationship, is like we thinkabout our relationship as like a
(36:38):
third person in our family, youknow, so maybe you could speak
a little bit to that piece.
Shawn Frazier (36:45):
Yeah, so I remember it's actually had kind
of a question.
I was going to segue over that,so I'm glad you're asking, but
there's kind of like the idea Iknow like of if a couple is
(37:07):
having a fight, the thought oflike well, who won the fight?
And I remember kind of having aconversation with you years ago
about having watched my parentshave fights and thinking about
they're on a team.
And thinking about they're on ateam and, regardless of if
(37:32):
somebody wins that fight andsomebody loses, the team loses.
Yeah, and kind of thinking ofit as we have a team to take
care of and sometimes what'sgoing to suit the team best is
going to require maybe a littlebit more attention to you, a
little bit more attention to me,or maybe we both need to
sacrifice some of our own timeto do some more work on the
(37:54):
relationship so that more focuswould be put on the relationship
is there like a specificexample you can think of so?
yeah.
So you had said so you wouldgive 80 and accept 20 in our
relationship.
I think a good example is youhaving been away and having
(38:20):
priorities shift away from therelationship.
You had a major event your dadhad a stroke.
His condition is uncertain.
Getting there it's uncertain somuch uncertainty so I never
felt like I'm not getting enough.
I never felt like therelationship was getting enough.
However, objectively looking atit, the relationship took the
(38:43):
back burner, so it was more likea 90 95 percent of our
relationship resources went toyou.
I'm taking care of horses, I'mtrying to work as much overtime
as I can, I'm taking care of thegarden.
So there was like a 95 5 ratio.
Yeah, but when we look at thecontext of a relationship as me,
(39:05):
you and a relationship, itallows you to shift priorities
where they need to go for thegood of the team.
So I think having a concept ofthe relationship as its own
entity has kind of allowed usthe flexibility, the leeway, the
security to kind of not alwaysneed 50, 50.
(39:29):
Yeah, do you have anything youwant to say about that?
Kat Lee (39:35):
I think an important thing that you're naming and I
just want to highlight that islike it's never going to be
exactly 50, 50, 100 percent ofthe time.
You know, and accepting thatfeels really important.
I think another part of thatthat feels really important is
that, like what you, what we ask, like when I say we give to the
(40:04):
relationship, it never pulls meout of like, my authenticity.
It never asks me to mask or fawnor, you know, do something.
That feels out of integrity forme, and so I think that that
feels like an important piece islike I don't want somebody to
(40:26):
hear this and walk away beinglike well, I just need to keep
giving and giving and giving tothe relationship for the sake of
the relationship.
Like sometimes, when you havethat dynamic because I can
certainly say that I had thatwith my ex-husband is like like
so much of my resources wasgoing to this relationship to
(40:47):
keep us together that it waspulling me out of my
authenticity, of my own wantsand desires.
It's one thing to say hey, sean, I need you to put some of the
priorities that you don'tnormally prioritize in your life
like the horses in the garden.
I need you to put that on thefront burner and you can do that
for a short period of time,like the horses in the garden.
I need you to put that on thefront burner and you can do that
(41:09):
for a short period of time.
But it's not like, you know, asituation where I'm asking you
to be somebody that you're not,which I think that some people
get into like that kind ofdifficult dynamic when it comes
to their relationship.
Which I mean to me is this isthe important part around
discernment and choosing a goodpartner, choosing somebody who
(41:33):
is a good match for you, andmaybe we can go like in the way
way back machine for a moment,because I'd love for you to sort
of speak about what it was likebefore you and I started dating
, because, you know, one of thethings that I found really
attractive about when I firstmet you is you were somebody who
(41:57):
was already doing work like andby work I mean like you were
taking care of yourself, youwere exercising, you were, you
know, making sure that, like youwere taking care of yourself,
you were exercising.
You were, you know, um, makingsure that, like you were sort of
heating, meeting some healthgoals.
You were emotionally intelligent, you had good communication
skills like this was all stuffthat was like pre-existing
(42:20):
before you and I had met, and sothere was never this feeling
where I felt like I had fallenin love with the potential of
who you could be.
It was just I got to fall inlove with who you were in that
moment and we've continued tofall in love with all the
different versions of each otherthrough the years, you know.
So if you could sort of speakto that piece, I'd love to to.
(42:41):
I think that would be valuablefor folks who are maybe single
and wanting to find a partnerand like being like well, why
can't I find that person?
Shawn Frazier (42:52):
yeah, you know, no, that's exactly that kind of
exactly describes myself.
It's like I just felt goodabout myself.
I just felt like you know, I'ma good guy, I would be a good
partner.
Why can't I find somebody?
And I somewhat kind of got intothe like well, I'll just be
(43:14):
single forever mindset, but itjust wasn't really fulfilling
and I was always wondering whereis that person for me?
You know why am why am I alone?
Um, so there was just a kind ofa taking stock of where my life
was at, what I was looking forand who I was at the time, just
(43:39):
before we met.
Um.
So I got specific on what kindof person I was looking for and
you fit the bill you were very,you were very specific yeah, I
mean right down to wantingsomebody from same hometown,
preferably same high school.
(44:01):
as it turned out, same same peergroup, somebody I knew I wanted
, somebody familiar with thatbackstory, familiar and common
experiences that we could kindof bond over.
Then I kind of looked at myselfand was thinking you know, girl
(44:23):
walks through the door rightnow I have my chance.
How am I feeling?
What am I thinking like?
What do I have to offer?
And there was a time where Iwas like you know that it makes
sense that I'm alone becausewhat I want isn't really
matching what I'm working for,what I'm deserving of really.
So I kind of said put myself inher shoes.
(44:48):
Who is she looking for?
Is she looking for some bouncerwho's a slob who just drinks
with his buddies and chainsmokes on the weekend?
You know, like that's notenticing, that's not attractive.
So just put wheels in motion,start getting a little bit
better shape, keep the house alittle bit more straightened up,
you know, let's quit smoking,let's, you know, become somebody
(45:10):
that somebody else wouldactually want to be with.
Um, now, I didn't know it wouldhave this side effect, but when
we got back in contact, like,the position I was in was like
I'm super excited to meet thisperson, because I feel like, hey
, look at all this that I haveto include you in.
(45:32):
I have all these friends, Ihave all these places I could
take you to.
You know, I have my condo.
You know I'm fit, I'm healthy,I'm active.
Um, so, instead of being likedown on my luck, crying in my
beer, why am I so lonely?
I kind of put myself in aposition to be confident when I
(45:55):
met you, re-met you anyhow.
So that went.
I mean, the timing was great,we met, and I mean how did it
seem when we met?
Did I seem uncomfortable, did Iseem insecure, or did I seem
confident?
Did I seem ready to kind ofbear myself to you?
Kat Lee (46:19):
I would say you were confident.
I would say that the mostattractive part about meeting
you was that like you wereyourself.
And then, sort of as a rippleeffect of you being yourself, it
(46:44):
like made me feel confident, tosort of be myself as well.
And I think some of the workthat I had done up until that
point was, like you know, I havea tendency to fawn in
relationships.
I have a tendency to like moldand shift, um, because I grew up
with a father who was prettyabsent, you know.
(47:06):
And so then it becomes thisgame of like well, what can I do
to make you stick around?
And you know, I think I hadalso dated a lot of guys who
were like that as well, and sothen it was just like two people
fawning to each other.
(47:27):
You know, like what do I needto do to keep you around?
Shawn Frazier (47:31):
and what can I?
Kat Lee (47:31):
do to keep you around and then it's just like this,
like mushy, I think this is.
This is where we go into likecodependency patterns, right,
but I think that you know youbeing solid about who you are
and what your desires and wants,were allowed me to sort of meet
(47:53):
that and be like okay, so if itdoesn't work out, it doesn't
work out and that's okay.
You know, and I think thatthat's an important part of any
relationship is that we arechoosing to be there.
Um, I think that a lot of times, people feel like, for various
reasons and some of it can be inthe sort of like tangible 3d
(48:16):
world of like we have kidstogether, we have finances mixed
up together, you know, fill inthe blank, and it feels like
that choice goes away.
Yeah, and I think it's reallyimportant, particularly when it
comes to friendships, like deepfriendships and with your
(48:39):
partnerships, like do you choosethis person?
And examining that on like afairly regular basis, because I
can honestly say that, likeevery single one of the people
in my life like I choose to havein there.
I think another important partis and an important question to
(49:06):
ask in relationships is, like,if you have to step away like I
had to step away from ourrelationship for four and a half
months and there were timesduring, I think, the first half
of that trip, um, particularlybecause, like my dad was sort of
(49:29):
like in ICU, wasn't sure, likelike his schedule was crazy.
And then the time difference,like there were times where,
like I didn't talk to you forlike a week.
Shawn Frazier (49:46):
Yeah.
Cause you guys are 16 hoursahead, yeah, in South Korea.
So a lot of times you weregoing to bed, something like you
were going to bed right when Iwas on my way to work.
I was getting off work rightwhen you were waking up um.
(50:06):
So off work right when you werewaking up, um.
So that, uh, that distance andlike the unavailability really
was it was an unfortunate way toconfirm how much I missed you,
(50:31):
how much I loved yourinvolvement, how much I valued
your, your input and just yourinvolvement in my day to day.
Um, I had spoken to some peopleat work that were like, oh my
God, you must really miss yourwife and I said you know, I'm,
I'm really lucky because I missher like crazy.
(50:53):
Um, I know some people werekind of like I wouldn't mind if
my wife or husband was gone fora while.
I remember thinking like that'skind of sad, you know, and yeah
and for me I don't know thatthis was a big could have been a
(51:16):
potential I want to, it was Iguess, objectively a stressor on
our relationship, that for me,the whole time it was just
confirmation after confirmationthat you were the right person
because one I was having to workharder than ever to maintain
(51:37):
things around here by myself.
On the other side of that was,I was happy to do it.
I was happy to be able toprovide for you the security of
just being able to focus on whatyou needed to focus on.
Kat Lee (51:54):
Yeah.
Shawn Frazier (51:55):
And there was the , you know, eating breakfast
alone and being like I reallywish my wife was here.
Kat Lee (52:06):
Yeah, you know, coming home from work and really
wishing you were there and beingglad that someday you, you,
would be there but also beingglad that I wasn't there, like I
think, you know, one of thethings that we've talked about
is like what a gift it was thatI got to go away for so long.
(52:27):
And you know, gift in both thebusiness sense, because I have a
business that travels with meand the business is also
flexible enough, like because ofthe clientele that I've that.
I've brought in, that everyonewas super understanding, but
also like what a gift it wasthat I have a husband who I can
(52:57):
step away, and when I come back,the relationship's actually
more secure and more stable thanit was before.
And like I think that that'ssomething that doesn't get
talked about.
A lot in relationships is like,well, what happens when you
step away out of necessity, youknow, and you know what happens
if you can't talk to your personevery single day or even every
(53:20):
other hour.
And for me it's like like that,like the vision that I'm having
, is this like little ember thatwe sort of keep alive even in
each other's absence and wetrust each other to keep that
(53:42):
alive even in each other'sabsence.
And you know, to me they'relike one.
One of the biggest gifts thatyou gave me is that I could step
away and I didn't have to worryabout you.
I didn't have to worry like, ohmy gosh, is this going to be
too much for our relationship?
You know, is this going to bethe thing that breaks us?
(54:03):
You know, is he going to beable to feed himself?
Like, like you know, I thinkthat that is that like
interdependence that we weretalking about and alluding to
earlier is we depend on eachother like in a very, very real,
daily sort of a way yeahand we're independent enough
(54:27):
humans that if we need to forthe sake of the relationship,
for the sake of life or whateverit is, you know we can still
pull each other, pull away fromeach other, and the structure
does not fall.
And you know, you and I thinkabout our relationship as being
(54:47):
a team and thinking about, likehow can we nurture this third
entity in our relationship?
How, like, what are the needsof this third entity in our
relationship?
And you know that might requirea sacrifice on one or both ends
, or it might be a stating ofneeds on on one or both ends.
But then also, like like youwere a teammate of our family,
(55:13):
even if that teamwork that youwere doing was like hey, like
I'm gonna work overtime and I'mgonna cover and make sure that,
like life is gonna be okay whencat comes back.
You know, and you know my momlike stated almost on a daily
basis like how wonderful is itthat Sean is able to like handle
(55:37):
things at home so that you canbe here with us, and how much
they needed me to be in Korea.
And I didn't have like even afiber of my being thinking or
being worried about like oh shit, is this going to break me and
Sean.
Shawn Frazier (55:58):
Yeah, yeah.
That's a real point of pridefor me, knowing that your
parents could see, of pride forme knowing that your parents
could see that you had a partnerthat is solid, somebody they
could approve of, especially foryour dad not knowing which way
(56:22):
his health might go, to knowthat his daughter is with
somebody that can take care ofher, I mean.
One thing I think about, though, is me also not having to be
worried that everything has tobe perfect, because while you
were gone, I had to setpriorities and say what needs to
(56:49):
be alive.
Our garden or our horses, um, Imean it kind of.
I mean we had peas coming up,potatoes doing great.
We had beets that were lookinggood.
We had a blueberry plant plantmulberry plant.
We had a blueberry plantmulberry plant.
(57:10):
We had gosh.
What else did we?
Kat Lee (57:10):
have.
We had a full garden kale.
Shawn Frazier (57:14):
The kale was blowing up, but it was taking me
an hour and a half to two hoursa day to haul water out to the
garden and water and then gotake care of the horses and then
get to work and it was like I'mburnt out, had to let you know.
I let the garden go in stageswhere it's like, okay, I'm just
(57:35):
going to focus on this, I'm justgoing to focus on this, and
then it got to where it's like,okay, I'm gonna water the
blueberry bushes and I'm gonnawater the asparagus.
That's all I got time for.
Take care of the horses, makesure they're alive, and then, as
far as like, around the house,the house wasn't perfectly clean
, you know, definitely not,definitely not.
(57:55):
So, yeah, you didn't have toworry about am I going to be
able to take care of this guy oris this guy going to be able to
take care of himself?
I also didn't have to worrythat I didn't do things
perfectly.
I didn't have to worry you weregoing to come home and say what
happened to this.
What is this doing here?
How come this is that way?
You know, we both having anunderstanding of being on a team
(58:21):
, we both realize each other aredoing the best, like I wasn't
slacking off.
I wasn't slacking off, youweren't slacking off, I wasn't
slaving away while you were juston vacation, you know so,
whereas you didn't have to worryabout me, it made me feel good
(58:42):
that you weren't worried aboutme.
I didn't want you worried aboutme and I didn't have to worry
about you coming home andnitpicking the way I maintained
everything.
Yeah, so I think, if I'mthinking of a secure
relationship, I look at thatexperience and I think one.
We had an enormous stressor onour relationship and at no time
(59:08):
did I start to feel like crackswere forming, so to speak, and
also I just feel like I feellike it just reinforced all of
the things that have made ourrelationship strong and good.
Kat Lee (59:30):
I think that that goes back to that like core framework
of ours, which is like make themost generous assumption of the
other person, you know, assumethat the other person is doing
their best and I feel like thatshuts down so much insecurity
and shuts down so much of likepotential arguments that could
(59:55):
happen, because another way thatthat could have gone is because
I do have a tendency to be alittle bit perfectionistic Is
like Just look at the husband.
You found perfect um but likeanother way that could have gone
(01:00:19):
is like you have a history ofnot doing your best, history of
not doing your best.
You know you have a history oflike slacking off and you know,
like not meeting not even thestandards of the house or the
(01:00:40):
relationship, but like notmeeting the standards of
yourself yeah, I mean at timeslike certainly you know, but
like if there was like along-standing history of that,
like I'm just thinking of myex-husband, like part of the way
that I think I would havethought in that relationship is
(01:01:02):
like I can't make the mostgenerous assumption of you,
because I know this isn't yourbest, you know, and so I think
that when there is concertedeffort on both sides and then
when we aren't meeting ourstandards of you know, ourselves
(01:01:25):
or our relationshipsexpectations, it's not well,
what's wrong with you?
You need to fix this.
It's like hey, like I wonderwhat's going on with you yeah
you know if we can sort ofapproach those moments where we
aren't doing our best curiosityinstead of contention and
instead of judgment.
(01:01:46):
Yeah, because certainly like wedon't we don't do our best all
the time but in those momentswhere we fall short it's like
okay, so can we step intocuriosity.
Shawn Frazier (01:01:58):
Yeah.
Kat Lee (01:02:00):
Can we?
Shawn Frazier (01:02:00):
step into compassion.
Yeah, and If your teammates notdoing your best, it doesn't
help the team to kick them whilethey're down.
You know you're on my team If,if you're struggling in any way
there's like even like cynicalways to look at this.
The best thing I can do formyself is not to dunk on you.
(01:02:26):
You know, the best thing I cando for myself is help you get
back up to form yeah you knowit's the best thing for you and
it's best thing for therelationship, whereas you know
getting into blaming or gettinginto like I just don't get it, I
don't you know why are youdoing this?
Like when, when you'restruggling to do your best and
(01:02:48):
somebody's acting like you'rejust choosing to be lazy in a
certain way, or you're just likeyou're choosing to fall short,
that's not helpful.
Yeah, you know.
So that general, that spirit ofgenerosity and like what's
going on?
yeah like I guess, like kind ofto go back on, you know, I think
(01:03:11):
you mentioned financialcompetency, where it was like I
seemed to be a little bit morefinancially secure and
knowledgeable and you weren'tthere.
Math is hard man, sure.
Sure I mean.
But the spirit of generosityfor me is like, well, I wonder
(01:03:32):
what your experience is like,not like what's wrong with you,
you know, I'm like hmm, I havethis wonderful person here.
She's smart, she's capable andshe's kind of ignorant in
certain areas.
What is that?
And she's kind of ignorant incertain areas.
What is that about?
Not, she's?
(01:03:52):
What a loser.
Wow, she's not as smart as Ithink she is.
Like no, my read is correctYou're smart and capable.
Let's investigate and seewhat's going on.
Yeah, you know.
And then the great thing aboutthat is you got up to speed and
then we had a little teamwork, alittle powwow, and now I'm even
(01:04:14):
on a new plateau, financiallyspeaking, as far as, like,
planning, budgeting,prioritizing.
So yeah, I think that spirit ofgenerosity and assuming that
somebody is doing their best, Ithink that's of generosity and
assuming that somebody is doingtheir best, I think that's
important.
Kat Lee (01:04:31):
Yeah.
So one of the things that Iwant to be asking each of my
guests at the end of eachepisode is the title of this
podcast is Emotional AlchemyPodcast.
What do you, how do youinterpret that?
What is your definition ofemotional alchemy and how has
(01:04:51):
that showed up in your life?
I'm putting you on the fly.
I didn't tell you, I didn'twant you to know that, that's
okay, I've actually got a prettygood answer.
Shawn Frazier (01:05:02):
Um, when I think of emotional alchemy, when I
hear that phrase, what I thinkof is what I think of is
emotional control, which is notromantically controlling your
(01:05:24):
emotions.
When I think of emotionalcontrol, I think of observing an
emotion, integrating it andmoving on.
And uh, you know, like me anddonovan have had conversations
donovan's, his best friend yeah,best buds, where he's been told
(01:05:46):
like, oh, like, you should goto therapy.
You're avoiding your emotions.
Well, he's not avoiding hisemotions.
I don't avoid my emotions, Ijust don't.
I'm not controlled by them.
So for me, emotional alchemy isabout experiencing your
(01:06:12):
emotions in a way that is safeand healthy and if they're
taking control of you,investigating that and trying to
find out what's going on.
I mean, now I think about it.
(01:06:33):
Before we moved here and beforewe moved on to our land and all
that I had like an emotionalnot there was like an anxiety I
had do you remember that?
Where it was like what is this?
And I remember we just leanedinto that, paid attention to
that, felt it out.
(01:06:56):
What's going on?
What am I feeling?
Why am I feeling this way?
It wasn't about getting rid ofthose feelings.
It was about naming them,categorizing them, putting your
finger on them, seeing what theyare and why they're there.
Kat Lee (01:07:17):
So that's my interpretation of emotional
alchemy.
Lovely, does that answer thequestion?
Yeah, well, thank you for beingmy emotional support person as
I lean into restarting thispodcast again.
I was really excited to do itbut I think I had, like you know
, first day jitters.
And thanks for being you,thanks for being my honey and uh
(01:07:44):
, you're so welcome you're noton the socials so I can't.
Usually, usually, uh, I invitepeople to to find my guests on
social media but, you don't dothe social find me through her
all right.
(01:08:04):
Well, I'm hoping to have manymore conversations on the
podcast with you.
So if you're listening, andyou've listened this far and
you're kind of interested, we'lltake questions.
So if you have, dm me oncathosuly.
We'll see you soon.
Hello and welcome to the Emotional Alchemy podcast.
This is Kat Lee and I havetaken a big break away from this
podcast the last time Ipublished something was back in
early June and it is now earlyJanuary of 25 and had to take a
(00:24):
big break for big tectonicshifting reasons.
And today's guest is myfavorite human.
This is Sean Frazier.
He is my husband and I broughthim on for two reasons.
Um, I do best in storytellingwhen I have someone to sort of
(00:50):
like, respond to and share spacewith and answer questions, and
so I've asked him on to sort ofhelp me tell the story of my dad
.
And I'm sure that I'm going tocontinue to have those stories
trickle through the podcast andthrough Instagram and through
the newsletter and all that.
(01:11):
But I thought just sort oflaying the foundational
groundwork of like, hey, wherehas Kat been for seven months
would be a good place to startand Sean's going to help me tell
that story and Sean's going tohelp me tell that story.
And, um, I don't know about you, but whenever there's big
things that happen in life, Ithink it is a big opportunity to
(01:33):
sort of shift and recalibrateand really understand what is of
value and one of the gosh, I'mlike already gonna start crying.
One of the the biggest thingsthat I feel like I've walked
(01:55):
away from this experience is thevalue of secure relationships
and, um, I've not always beenthe best at relationships and I
think that Sean has been areally huge teacher, partner,
co-creator of of thisrelationship and he has helped
(02:20):
me sort of sink into my owncapacity and and ability to to
communicate better.
And you know, one of the thingsthat a client told me recently
is like oh, how do?
you know all this stuff aboutnervous systems and how to
communicate, and and I was like,because I've been there and I
(02:43):
continue to do this work, andand she was like you know,
that's so surprising.
I just thought you were perfectat this and I really want to
take the veil off of beingperfect at relationships, at
nervous system regulation, atemotional alchemy, alchemy, um,
(03:09):
and we should really like that'ssuch a myth from the coaching
industry is like let me stand ontop of this like precipice and
show you this, uh, curated,filtered version of what you
think you want your life to looklike, and and really like I,
one of the things I am so proudof in my life is this
relationship that I have with myhusband, and you know we've
talked about, you know,potentially having him come on
(03:31):
and do several of these episodestogether, because I want to
sort of pop the hood on a strongpartnership and talk to you and
, you know, reflect between himand I about, like, what makes
our relationship work.
And so two intentions in thisepisode is Sean's going to help
(03:54):
me tell this story and we'realso going to talk about some of
the practical frameworks thatwe have in terms of our, our own
relationship, and I hope thatthat will apply to whatever
relationship you're navigatingin your life, whether it's a
romantic partnership or, youknow, relationship with a family
(04:14):
member or, honestly, like thisis gonna sound kind of silly,
but, like I, take our frameworksand apply them to horse
training and dog training andchicken wrangling, like it's
totally applicable to all theseaspects.
So that's what we're going todo today.
Shawn Frazier (04:35):
Sounds good.
Yeah, you ready to start?
Kat Lee (04:38):
Yes.
Shawn Frazier (04:40):
Okay, so we'll go from.
Kat Lee (04:42):
Wait before we start, okay, Okay, so we'll go from
Wait before we start.
Okay, I'm having troublestepping out of the interview.
Words Words.
Shawn Frazier (04:53):
Seems like you're stepping out of words right now
.
Kat Lee (04:58):
Can you just introduce yourself and talk about who you
are?
Sean Frazier husband.
Shawn Frazier (05:04):
Sure, I'm Sean Frazier, husband of yours.
You know we've been in arelationship for eight-ish years
, going from long distance.
When I was in Nevada, you werein California.
You moved to Vancouver.
We were longer distance.
(05:29):
You got trapped there duringCOVID.
It was a nightmare.
We persevered through a lot ofups and downs.
You moved down to Nevada, thenwe both moved up to Washington.
We got married along the way.
I bought 10 acres with you, meand you bought 10 acres with a
barn, two mini horses, two babyregular horses, a dozen and a
(05:53):
half chickens, a turkey and agarden, and we live together and
we are life partners together,and that's probably the relevant
details of who I am in relationto you.
That's enough of the stage, Ithink.
Kat Lee (06:16):
We were not just in a relationship for eight years.
I had a massive crush on you inhigh school.
Shawn Frazier (06:23):
Likewise.
Kat Lee (06:24):
And so we knew each other between the ages of what
15 to 18 ish, and then this waspre Facebook, pre social media
days.
And so we kind of disappearedfrom each other's lives for
about 14 years, before I foundyou on Facebook.
Shawn Frazier (06:45):
Yeah.
Kat Lee (06:46):
So, yes, yes, context for our relationship.
I also want to just add that,like you're a good guy, like
when people ask me you know, youknow what's like?
I feel like the only way that Ican really summarize it is he's
(07:12):
a good guy, and what I mean bythat is you have this internally
directed compass of likemorality.
I want to say morality, and theright thing yeah, like we joke
that the thing that you keepsaying over and over again, as
you're like moving through theworld, is like that's just not
(07:33):
right like you know yeah, I meanthere's yeah, um, but I think
that sort of that good guycompass has, um, has been
important just in terms of youknow, we come across, let's say,
(07:54):
a difficult conversation thatwe need to be having and even if
it's a difficult thing, yousort of lean into like what's
the right thing to do here,what's the kindest thing to do
here, what is the like, even ifit is temporarily really fucking
(08:17):
uncomfortable, what can I do tosort of look at the longterm of
this?
And to me, like I think thatthat's, that's a good guy,
that's a good guy quality yeahthat's.
Shawn Frazier (08:29):
That's part of the.
Yeah, yeah okay so you havequestions for me.
We had kind of we have.
This is kind of a before,during and after story, so we'll
start with before, sure, sowe'll go back to june 2024.
Um, I'm in my second year ofbeing a bus driver.
(08:54):
Finally get a vacation.
So we have, I have a vacation,oh I forgot that.
Kat Lee (08:59):
This is how it all happened, yeah so we're hanging
out, you know.
Shawn Frazier (09:04):
You're podcasting , seeing clients moving and
shaking.
You're at the farm.
Um, we're thinking aboutgrowing food.
We're thinking about gettingchickens.
We get the chickens.
That's what's going on with thefarm, and then things are going
good.
Lindsay was down, hung out fora week or so.
(09:27):
She goes home the next day.
Kat Lee (09:29):
Y'all know Lindsay, she's on the podcast.
A lot Lindsay Lockett, yeah.
Shawn Frazier (09:33):
Lindsay Lockett yeah, so she goes home the next
day.
We're hanging out together.
I have one more day after thatvacation.
Kat Lee (09:44):
You get a phone call and I think, for context, my
parents never call me.
It's actually been like kind ofa painful part of my
relationship with my parents isI've always wanted more
closeness with them and they'vebeen distant, I think my whole
(10:12):
life and there's an aspect ofour relationship where they feel
like they need to protect mefrom themselves, if that makes
sense.
And so to get a phone call frommy parents, like immediately my
heart is out of my body and um,it's my mom on the other line
(10:34):
and she's panicking, she's atthe hospital, my dad has had a
stroke and um and um, I and thisis like again, if we can talk
about the safety in ourrelationship is getting off.
(10:57):
That phone call, I think is thehardest I've cried in my life.
Um, and I think a lot of thework that I've done up until
that point has been aboutexpressing feelings and, you
know, being in touch with yourbody and understanding like
where all these things arecoming from, but like the grief
that swept over me was justunbelievable yeah and um, I just
(11:22):
remember like tapping my chestand saying to you over and over
again I just didn't get enoughtime with him.
I didn't get enough time withhim and you know, you sort of
went straight into action mode.
Um, you like hopped online,bought a plane ticket I'm like
(11:46):
sobbing as you're packing up myclothes, um, and I was basically
on a plane the next day yeah, Iremember.
Shawn Frazier (11:59):
For both of us it was like I'll see you when I
see you.
Kat Lee (12:03):
Yeah.
Shawn Frazier (12:05):
Because there was no.
I'm going to go for a couple ofweeks and get things situated.
It was like you're going to gofor as long as you need to go.
You'll see what your dad'sconditions, like when you get
there?
Kat Lee (12:19):
Yeah, and I wasn't sure if my dad was even going to be
alive.
When I got there, you know, um,um, the airline pilot like it
was either the day before orafter father's day as I was
flying out, and, um, the pilotcomes online and it's like, hey,
if there's any, if there areany dads on board, like happy
(12:39):
father's day.
And you know, don't forget towish your father's uh, you know,
happy father's day.
And and I just remember hearingthat and just like sobbing and,
um, like I cried the whole wayto Korea, I think.
And then when I got there,because we didn't have a return
(12:59):
ticket back, it was just like,you know, I'll see you when I
get there, or I'll see you whenI see you.
I had no idea that I was goingto be gone for five months.
Yeah, um, you know, just sort oflike right off the bat, when
people ask me how my dad isdoing, um, today, I the most
(13:21):
honest answer that I can say ishe's doing okay.
He had a major brain surgery.
You know we had to.
The doctors had to try to placea stent in.
It didn't work, so he had, youknow, an ischemic stroke, which
(13:42):
is essentially like a blood clotthat gets lodged in the brain
and, um, it was on the left sideof his brain and, um, the stent
surgery didn't go as well asthey had hoped, and then he had
a hemorrhagic stroke a coupleweeks after that first one.
(14:02):
And so you know, today, as aswe're recording this, he can
walk with a cane and withassistance, which I think is
amazing he will probably neverhave full use of his hand his
right hand, um, and speech isprobably not going to come back
(14:24):
fully, and because his strokewas on the left side of his
brain, a lot of the logicalsystems have come offline.
And so, you know, even to thisday, he struggles with things
that are very sort of logical,like what is your name, what is
(14:46):
the day of the week, what is, umsort of like.
If you think about, like,categorizations, yeah, um, and
yet you know, one of the, thethings that I really just want
to, like say that I'm gratefulfor in the time that I've had
with him.
Like, say that I'm grateful forin the time that I've had with
him in Korea that four and ahalf months is.
(15:07):
My dad was always a verylogical, stoic, closed off kind
of a guy and, you know, prior tohis stroke.
I could probably name thenumber of times that he has said
I love you on one hand, like Ican think of like four instances
(15:28):
for sure.
I kind of have to like, like,make the best of assumptions and
think there must have been afifth one in there you know, I
didn't hear what he said.
Shawn Frazier (15:37):
It must have been .
Kat Lee (15:37):
I love you yeah, like there must have been a fifth one
in there somewhere.
But I can think of fourdistinct instances where he has
said I love you.
And in the four and a halfmonths that I got to spend with
him in Korea, um, it was I loveyou every morning, I love you
every evening and I got like alifetime of I love you's.
(15:58):
Um, in that time that I hadwith him, even on, like, there
were some really, really harddays.
I think even on the hard dayswe could at least say I love you
to each other.
So I find that so fascinatingabout the brain is the sort of
differentiation between the leftand the right hemispheres, and
(16:21):
you know, that's been one of thefrustrating things about having
him go through such asystemized.
Is that a word?
Systemized?
Yes, you know, doctors assumelike, oh, if you can't name this
(16:48):
shape, if you can't name that ahat is a hat, that you can't
name what your name is, thenyou've lost sort of the higher
level functionings and in myexperience with my dad is he's
not lost any of those higherlevel functionings and the
abstract thinking and, um, theemotions.
(17:08):
He's lost sort of like I don'tknow, like the first part of the
alphabet, but he can rememberthe last half of the alphabet.
Shawn Frazier (17:17):
You know, yeah, um, so yeah, I'll just pause
there so, in the context of umrelationships, you're in a
situation where you're away fromme, everything has been paused
(17:40):
and put on hold.
Paused, unput, unhold.
I think were you seeing clients?
You definitely weren'trecording podcasts.
I don't think you were reallymuch on social media.
Kat Lee (17:53):
I wasn't on social media very much.
I emailed my client list and Ihad just sold out BAM.
Do you remember when?
Shawn Frazier (18:05):
I left, I had just sold out BAM.
Do you remember?
Kat Lee (18:06):
when I left, I had just sold out BAM so I ended up
refunding everybody in thatgroup program because I couldn't
possibly think about hostingthose and I had had a sort of
short roster of one-on-oneclients and I emailed everybody
on the short roster and was likehey, like I'm for sure taking
the next month or so off andI'll let you know when my
(18:27):
schedule opens up and it willlikely be very limited and there
will have to be like thisunderstanding that I might have
to cancel last minute because ofmy dad and luckily everyone on
my client list was just sounderstanding and supportive
(18:50):
just so understanding andsupportive and yeah, yeah.
Shawn Frazier (18:52):
So I know while you were gone, there was many
things that I realized about ourrelationship, like areas where
I missed you uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh.
Kat Lee (19:04):
Tears on both sides.
It's a hard time to think about, huh yeah, keep this interview
(19:53):
rolling.
Shawn Frazier (19:53):
So I was learning a lot of things about our
relationship that made me feelvery strong feelings and
confirmation that, wow, I pickedthe right woman, you know cause
I missed you so much.
And I remember a story that youhad told me while you were
(20:16):
there that you were trying toget into one of your dad's
accounts something and your mom,you didn't know the password.
Your mom's like, oh, it'sprobably this nailed it first
try.
Yeah, first try, first guess soI guess in the context of
relationships, because we'refilling people in on where you
(20:39):
were, why you were gone, likewhat were the things that you
were noticing, maybe about yourparents relationships, that
relationship that you didn'tnotice before, and maybe like
our relationship that you didn'tknow or notice before.
Good question, thank you.
Kat Lee (21:03):
Thank you, it me a little while to get it out, got
there, I think, in terms of myparents' relationship.
They've been together for fouryears and my parents were an
(21:27):
arranged marriage and so I know,like I know the first half of
their marriage very well.
My mom didn't really want toget married to my dad and, you
know, kind of felt like she hadlost out on a lot of
opportunities.
She never got to date.
It was just this is the guyyou're going to marry and here
(21:51):
you go, have a life and havebabies, and she didn't feel like
she had a lot of choice.
So I'm very familiar with thatpart of the story where, you
know, there was duty and love,but it felt like the love was
(22:12):
because of the family unit, notnecessarily like love for each
other, um, and I think the thingthat became really clear to me
because this is the longest I'vespent with my parents since I
left the house is that love foreach other has grown to like a
(22:37):
devotion that like I can't, Icouldn't really comprehend Until
like I could relate it to myown relationship with you, um,
and so there's there's an aspectof my parents where they've
(23:00):
grown to love each other through, sort of like, maybe not the
best circumstances andcircumstances that we as
americans don't fully understandor comprehend.
Um, but there is such a deepdevotion that they have for each
other and such a deep love thatthey have for each other that,
like it's hard to sort of.
(23:20):
Yeah, it's it, you know.
Like we want to talk aboutsecure relationships and, um, I
think that my parents have hadto really forge that secure
relationship through not thebest circumstances and also like
(23:42):
fighting through their own.
You know, they don't have thelanguage around this, but like
their own attachment style.
My dad is a very avoidantperson, my mom is very anxious,
and they've had to find a happymedium that works for both of
them.
And it really does work forboth of them.
Yeah, I think, in the contextof our relationship, the
(24:06):
validation that I got, I mean,mean, I knew I was going to miss
you going away for that long,but I think the validation that
I got was like oh, here's aperson who I can do hard things
with.
Yeah, you know, um, and to me,like that feels like such an
(24:29):
essential part of a securerelationship is like life is
gonna be hard, like there aregonna be moments where you know
just, life is gonna happen youknow parents get sick, you know
there are natural disastersaround us, there are financial
(24:52):
struggles, there's you know anynumber of things and
difficulties.
I feel like a really importantfilter that I didn't realize
that I needed until I had it wasuntil I had.
(25:12):
It was like, hey, does thisperson make difficult things
easier or harder?
Because I've had tworelationships, two serious
relationships before you andboth of those relationships I
can unequivocally say that likeI couldn't surrender into how
hard or how difficult thatsituation was, whatever the
situation could be, cause I wasworried about how it was bland
(25:34):
for the other person and tryingto protect them from that other
thing, and I think that therewere a lot of sort of like
missed learning opportunitiesthat I could have had,
surrendering into difficultsituations because I didn't have
the right partner.
Shawn Frazier (25:50):
I guess the other , one of the other major things
that happened that I can thinkof you.
You know, business is put onhold, you're away from home for
an unknown amount of time andthen it seemed like you had
(26:15):
somewhat of a shift inpriorities.
When you came, when you gotback and after you know several
weeks, those were kind ofbecoming clear and seemed like
they were kind of solidifyingfor you.
Do you want to talk about howcertain things, maybe priorities
, shifted, what things maybe hada different perspective on?
Kat Lee (26:36):
I think I can share what I know now, because I feel
like the priority shifting isstill happening.
Feel like the priority shiftingis still happening.
Um, I think part of thatshifting is really looking at my
life and thinking about, like,like we have finite time, yeah,
(27:05):
you, and entropy is happeningall the time, like things left
to their own devices do notorder themselves, things left to
their own devices descend intochaos, and so what do I want to
spend my time doing?
(27:25):
What feels valuable, what feelslike it needs to be put into
order, has definitely been likea big sort of important shift
since I've been back.
I think a big part of that isprioritizing our relationship
(27:49):
and beyond that, I that isprioritizing our relationship.
Um, and beyond that, I would say, prioritizing, um, like, at
least in my personal life,prioritizing relationships that
feel nourishing and divestingfrom relationships that don't
feel nourishing.
And I think I can be even morespecific about that is I am, I
(28:11):
tend to be, a giver inrelationships and so, like, left
to my own devices, I will give80% and accept somebody's 20%,
and that's never happened in meand you 20%, and that's never
happened in me and you but sortof placing our relationship as a
(28:35):
model of like how I want tofeel in all of my relationships
has made me like really likesink into the few personal
relationships that I feel likesafe and secure in and and maybe
pull away some of my energy andrelationships and that might
(28:55):
even just look like, hey, likeI'm, I'm giving 50 instead of 80
now yeah, do you want to talkat all about maybe shifts and
how you see your business orprofessional slash career
trajectory?
(29:30):
having those few clients thatstayed with me through this
crisis and my family made merealize that I actually really,
really love one-on-one coaching.
I love the intimacy of aone-on-one coaching container
that lasts for several monthsand sometimes years container
that lasts for several monthsand sometimes years.
(29:50):
And like I think that there'sthis idea in the coaching world
of like, well, you need to scaleand you need to get bigger and
like you know, like the last twohigh and the output was so high
and like there were so manythings about that that just felt
(30:16):
unsustainable.
And so like, when I think abouthow do I want my business to
look, like moving forward, thethings I want to prioritize are
to have a really simple businesswith a low overhead and to have
every point to be like thetouchstone is like intimacy,
(30:40):
like how do we create moreintimacy?
Because I think coaching is anart form and I think that when
we industrialize this thing,that we do space holding, we
(31:00):
lose the intimacy.
And that like personal touch.
Because ultimately, like whatcoaching at least the way that I
think about coaching is likeit's about healing relational
wounds and sometimes you need asafe relational person to
practice that out with.
Think you can just do thatthrough automated videos and you
(31:33):
know, just here, watch this.
You know this workshop that Ihosted and expect to have that
same level of likeheart-to-heart connection that
you have with like true intimacy, yeah, and so I don't really
know what the structure ofthat's going to look like in the
business, but one of the biggifts that you've given me is
(31:54):
like the ability to actuallytake a step back from my
business and say like hey, billsare going to be okay, like
let's build something that likeyou want to be doing, like what
do you want your business toactually look like moving
forward?
And and having the ability tojust like receive that and do
(32:18):
that feels like such a gift.
Shawn Frazier (32:21):
Yeah.
So that's, I guess, how I wouldsegue into talking about things
more relationship-wise, securerelationship, because one of the
things that I've really valuedabout our relationship that
makes me feel secure is theability to adapt or be dynamic
(32:45):
without feeling like, uh-oh.
To adapt or be dynamic withoutfeeling like, oh, I have to
worry what my wife's going tothink if I want to take up this
hobby or this pastime or if Iwant to change my career in this
way.
So I guess maybe you actuallyalready answered that question
because I was going to.
(33:05):
I was going to ask kind ofabout where does that security
come from?
When you're thinking I want totake a massive shift in my
business, and we had thecomfortability to have the
conversation about if you scaleback in your business, what is
that going to look like and canwe afford it?
(33:27):
And it's like, well, if we'rewilling to make changes here,
here and here, you can go aheadand take all the time you need
to figure out what that wants,what you want that to look like.
Yeah, so I guess I'm just kindof reiterating that that's one
of the things that I feel reallygood about as far as being
secure in our relationship is Idon't feel like I have to be the
(33:50):
guy that you met and I don'tfeel like you have to be Catley
the coach.
Podcaster.
X, y, z.
Do you have any?
Like, from your experience, isthat?
Is that a pressure point onrelationships of people?
(34:10):
You know that I feel like I'mstuck in this role because I
can't change or else my partnermight not want to change with me
.
Like, do you have any?
Kat Lee (34:19):
Certainly I think that, like when we get into at least
a lot of my clients, likethey're getting into the
self-development work, they'regetting into nervous system
regulation work most of my, mypeople are women, and they tend
to be in heterosexual couples.
That just is sort of the folksthat you know seem to be in my
(34:42):
space.
Um, there's, there's thisfeeling almost of like well, I'm
changing, you should bechanging at the same pace too,
and there's not a lot of like.
I think that this actually goesinto like one of the frameworks
of our relationship, which isgive the most generous
(35:04):
assumption of the other personlike assume that that person is
doing their best yeah and youknow, just because, let's say,
with finances, I know that, likewe've talked about doing a
whole episode on finances, butjust sort of as a touch point,
is like you know you got ahandle of your finances and like
(35:27):
your understanding of financesbefore I did, and had you been
there, being like, well, howcome you don't know this yet?
Like I feel like that would havemade me shut down even more
about finances and feel likeeven more dumb, about you know,
wanting to make changes but notknowing how to and not having
the tools and the skills to.
(35:48):
And so you know, I think thatthat can apply to everything,
whether it's communication andbeing like well, why don't you
know how to communicate?
Well, it's like maybe becauseyou know your partner hasn't
read that book about nonviolentcommunication, or maybe he
hasn't taken that class thatyou've taken.
And so it's about how can you,um, how can you both be on the
(36:18):
same team in the midst of bigchange and in the midst of big
shifts?
And to me, like the conceptthat you came up with years ago
that I think is such a huge andimportant part of our
relationship, is like we thinkabout our relationship as like a
(36:38):
third person in our family, youknow, so maybe you could speak
a little bit to that piece.
Shawn Frazier (36:45):
Yeah, so I remember it's actually had kind
of a question.
I was going to segue over that,so I'm glad you're asking, but
there's kind of like the idea Iknow like of if a couple is
(37:07):
having a fight, the thought oflike well, who won the fight?
And I remember kind of having aconversation with you years ago
about having watched my parentshave fights and thinking about
they're on a team.
And thinking about they're on ateam and, regardless of if
(37:32):
somebody wins that fight andsomebody loses, the team loses.
Yeah, and kind of thinking ofit as we have a team to take
care of and sometimes what'sgoing to suit the team best is
going to require maybe a littlebit more attention to you, a
little bit more attention to me,or maybe we both need to
sacrifice some of our own timeto do some more work on the
(37:54):
relationship so that more focuswould be put on the relationship
is there like a specificexample you can think of so?
yeah.
So you had said so you wouldgive 80 and accept 20 in our
relationship.
I think a good example is youhaving been away and having
(38:20):
priorities shift away from therelationship.
You had a major event your dadhad a stroke.
His condition is uncertain.
Getting there it's uncertain somuch uncertainty so I never
felt like I'm not getting enough.
I never felt like therelationship was getting enough.
However, objectively looking atit, the relationship took the
(38:43):
back burner, so it was more likea 90 95 percent of our
relationship resources went toyou.
I'm taking care of horses, I'mtrying to work as much overtime
as I can, I'm taking care of thegarden.
So there was like a 95 5 ratio.
Yeah, but when we look at thecontext of a relationship as me,
(39:05):
you and a relationship, itallows you to shift priorities
where they need to go for thegood of the team.
So I think having a concept ofthe relationship as its own
entity has kind of allowed usthe flexibility, the leeway, the
security to kind of not alwaysneed 50, 50.
(39:29):
Yeah, do you have anything youwant to say about that?
Kat Lee (39:35):
I think an important thing that you're naming and I
just want to highlight that islike it's never going to be
exactly 50, 50, 100 percent ofthe time.
You know, and accepting thatfeels really important.
I think another part of thatthat feels really important is
that, like what you, what we ask, like when I say we give to the
(40:04):
relationship, it never pulls meout of like, my authenticity.
It never asks me to mask or fawnor, you know, do something.
That feels out of integrity forme, and so I think that that
feels like an important piece islike I don't want somebody to
(40:26):
hear this and walk away beinglike well, I just need to keep
giving and giving and giving tothe relationship for the sake of
the relationship.
Like sometimes, when you havethat dynamic because I can
certainly say that I had thatwith my ex-husband is like like
so much of my resources wasgoing to this relationship to
(40:47):
keep us together that it waspulling me out of my
authenticity, of my own wantsand desires.
It's one thing to say hey, sean, I need you to put some of the
priorities that you don'tnormally prioritize in your life
like the horses in the garden.
I need you to put that on thefront burner and you can do that
for a short period of time,like the horses in the garden.
I need you to put that on thefront burner and you can do that
(41:09):
for a short period of time.
But it's not like, you know, asituation where I'm asking you
to be somebody that you're not,which I think that some people
get into like that kind ofdifficult dynamic when it comes
to their relationship.
Which I mean to me is this isthe important part around
discernment and choosing a goodpartner, choosing somebody who
(41:33):
is a good match for you, andmaybe we can go like in the way
way back machine for a moment,because I'd love for you to sort
of speak about what it was likebefore you and I started dating
, because, you know, one of thethings that I found really
attractive about when I firstmet you is you were somebody who
(41:57):
was already doing work like andby work I mean like you were
taking care of yourself, youwere exercising, you were, you
know, making sure that, like youwere taking care of yourself,
you were exercising.
You were, you know, um, makingsure that, like you were sort of
heating, meeting some healthgoals.
You were emotionally intelligent, you had good communication
skills like this was all stuffthat was like pre-existing
(42:20):
before you and I had met, and sothere was never this feeling
where I felt like I had fallenin love with the potential of
who you could be.
It was just I got to fall inlove with who you were in that
moment and we've continued tofall in love with all the
different versions of each otherthrough the years, you know.
So if you could sort of speakto that piece, I'd love to to.
(42:41):
I think that would be valuablefor folks who are maybe single
and wanting to find a partnerand like being like well, why
can't I find that person?
Shawn Frazier (42:52):
yeah, you know, no, that's exactly that kind of
exactly describes myself.
It's like I just felt goodabout myself.
I just felt like you know, I'ma good guy, I would be a good
partner.
Why can't I find somebody?
And I somewhat kind of got intothe like well, I'll just be
(43:14):
single forever mindset, but itjust wasn't really fulfilling
and I was always wondering whereis that person for me?
You know why am why am I alone?
Um, so there was just a kind ofa taking stock of where my life
was at, what I was looking forand who I was at the time, just
(43:39):
before we met.
Um.
So I got specific on what kindof person I was looking for and
you fit the bill you were very,you were very specific yeah, I
mean right down to wantingsomebody from same hometown,
preferably same high school.
(44:01):
as it turned out, same same peergroup, somebody I knew I wanted
, somebody familiar with thatbackstory, familiar and common
experiences that we could kindof bond over.
Then I kind of looked at myselfand was thinking you know, girl
(44:23):
walks through the door rightnow I have my chance.
How am I feeling?
What am I thinking like?
What do I have to offer?
And there was a time where Iwas like you know that it makes
sense that I'm alone becausewhat I want isn't really
matching what I'm working for,what I'm deserving of really.
So I kind of said put myself inher shoes.
(44:48):
Who is she looking for?
Is she looking for some bouncerwho's a slob who just drinks
with his buddies and chainsmokes on the weekend?
You know, like that's notenticing, that's not attractive.
So just put wheels in motion,start getting a little bit
better shape, keep the house alittle bit more straightened up,
you know, let's quit smoking,let's, you know, become somebody
(45:10):
that somebody else wouldactually want to be with.
Um, now, I didn't know it wouldhave this side effect, but when
we got back in contact, like,the position I was in was like
I'm super excited to meet thisperson, because I feel like, hey
, look at all this that I haveto include you in.
(45:32):
I have all these friends, Ihave all these places I could
take you to.
You know, I have my condo.
You know I'm fit, I'm healthy,I'm active.
Um, so, instead of being likedown on my luck, crying in my
beer, why am I so lonely?
I kind of put myself in aposition to be confident when I
(45:55):
met you, re-met you anyhow.
So that went.
I mean, the timing was great,we met, and I mean how did it
seem when we met?
Did I seem uncomfortable, did Iseem insecure, or did I seem
confident?
Did I seem ready to kind ofbear myself to you?
Kat Lee (46:19):
I would say you were confident.
I would say that the mostattractive part about meeting
you was that like you wereyourself.
And then, sort of as a rippleeffect of you being yourself, it
(46:44):
like made me feel confident, tosort of be myself as well.
And I think some of the workthat I had done up until that
point was, like you know, I havea tendency to fawn in
relationships.
I have a tendency to like moldand shift, um, because I grew up
with a father who was prettyabsent, you know.
(47:06):
And so then it becomes thisgame of like well, what can I do
to make you stick around?
And you know, I think I hadalso dated a lot of guys who
were like that as well, and sothen it was just like two people
fawning to each other.
(47:27):
You know, like what do I needto do to keep you around?
Shawn Frazier (47:31):
and what can I?
Kat Lee (47:31):
do to keep you around and then it's just like this,
like mushy, I think this is.
This is where we go into likecodependency patterns, right,
but I think that you know youbeing solid about who you are
and what your desires and wants,were allowed me to sort of meet
(47:53):
that and be like okay, so if itdoesn't work out, it doesn't
work out and that's okay.
You know, and I think thatthat's an important part of any
relationship is that we arechoosing to be there.
Um, I think that a lot of times, people feel like, for various
reasons and some of it can be inthe sort of like tangible 3d
(48:16):
world of like we have kidstogether, we have finances mixed
up together, you know, fill inthe blank, and it feels like
that choice goes away.
Yeah, and I think it's reallyimportant, particularly when it
comes to friendships, like deepfriendships and with your
(48:39):
partnerships, like do you choosethis person?
And examining that on like afairly regular basis, because I
can honestly say that, likeevery single one of the people
in my life like I choose to havein there.
I think another important partis and an important question to
(49:06):
ask in relationships is, like,if you have to step away like I
had to step away from ourrelationship for four and a half
months and there were timesduring, I think, the first half
of that trip, um, particularlybecause, like my dad was sort of
(49:29):
like in ICU, wasn't sure, likelike his schedule was crazy.
And then the time difference,like there were times where,
like I didn't talk to you forlike a week.
Shawn Frazier (49:46):
Yeah.
Cause you guys are 16 hoursahead, yeah, in South Korea.
So a lot of times you weregoing to bed, something like you
were going to bed right when Iwas on my way to work.
I was getting off work rightwhen you were waking up um.
(50:06):
So off work right when you werewaking up, um.
So that, uh, that distance andlike the unavailability really
was it was an unfortunate way toconfirm how much I missed you,
(50:31):
how much I loved yourinvolvement, how much I valued
your, your input and just yourinvolvement in my day to day.
Um, I had spoken to some peopleat work that were like, oh my
God, you must really miss yourwife and I said you know, I'm,
I'm really lucky because I missher like crazy.
(50:53):
Um, I know some people werekind of like I wouldn't mind if
my wife or husband was gone fora while.
I remember thinking like that'skind of sad, you know, and yeah
and for me I don't know thatthis was a big could have been a
(51:16):
potential I want to, it was Iguess, objectively a stressor on
our relationship, that for me,the whole time it was just
confirmation after confirmationthat you were the right person
because one I was having to workharder than ever to maintain
(51:37):
things around here by myself.
On the other side of that was,I was happy to do it.
I was happy to be able toprovide for you the security of
just being able to focus on whatyou needed to focus on.
Kat Lee (51:54):
Yeah.
Shawn Frazier (51:55):
And there was the , you know, eating breakfast
alone and being like I reallywish my wife was here.
Kat Lee (52:06):
Yeah, you know, coming home from work and really
wishing you were there and beingglad that someday you, you,
would be there but also beingglad that I wasn't there, like I
think, you know, one of thethings that we've talked about
is like what a gift it was thatI got to go away for so long.
(52:27):
And you know, gift in both thebusiness sense, because I have a
business that travels with meand the business is also
flexible enough, like because ofthe clientele that I've that.
I've brought in, that everyonewas super understanding, but
also like what a gift it wasthat I have a husband who I can
(52:57):
step away, and when I come back,the relationship's actually
more secure and more stable thanit was before.
And like I think that that'ssomething that doesn't get
talked about.
A lot in relationships is like,well, what happens when you
step away out of necessity, youknow, and you know what happens
if you can't talk to your personevery single day or even every
(53:20):
other hour.
And for me it's like like that,like the vision that I'm having
, is this like little ember thatwe sort of keep alive even in
each other's absence and wetrust each other to keep that
(53:42):
alive even in each other'sabsence.
And you know, to me they'relike one.
One of the biggest gifts thatyou gave me is that I could step
away and I didn't have to worryabout you.
I didn't have to worry like, ohmy gosh, is this going to be
too much for our relationship?
You know, is this going to bethe thing that breaks us?
(54:03):
You know, is he going to beable to feed himself?
Like, like you know, I thinkthat that is that like
interdependence that we weretalking about and alluding to
earlier is we depend on eachother like in a very, very real,
daily sort of a way yeahand we're independent enough
(54:27):
humans that if we need to forthe sake of the relationship,
for the sake of life or whateverit is, you know we can still
pull each other, pull away fromeach other, and the structure
does not fall.
And you know, you and I thinkabout our relationship as being
(54:47):
a team and thinking about, likehow can we nurture this third
entity in our relationship?
How, like, what are the needsof this third entity in our
relationship?
And you know that might requirea sacrifice on one or both ends
, or it might be a stating ofneeds on on one or both ends.
But then also, like like youwere a teammate of our family,
(55:13):
even if that teamwork that youwere doing was like hey, like
I'm gonna work overtime and I'mgonna cover and make sure that,
like life is gonna be okay whencat comes back.
You know, and you know my momlike stated almost on a daily
basis like how wonderful is itthat Sean is able to like handle
(55:37):
things at home so that you canbe here with us, and how much
they needed me to be in Korea.
And I didn't have like even afiber of my being thinking or
being worried about like oh shit, is this going to break me and
Sean.
Shawn Frazier (55:58):
Yeah, yeah.
That's a real point of pridefor me, knowing that your
parents could see, of pride forme knowing that your parents
could see that you had a partnerthat is solid, somebody they
could approve of, especially foryour dad not knowing which way
(56:22):
his health might go, to knowthat his daughter is with
somebody that can take care ofher, I mean.
One thing I think about, though, is me also not having to be
worried that everything has tobe perfect, because while you
were gone, I had to setpriorities and say what needs to
(56:49):
be alive.
Our garden or our horses, um, Imean it kind of.
I mean we had peas coming up,potatoes doing great.
We had beets that were lookinggood.
We had a blueberry plant plantmulberry plant.
We had a blueberry plantmulberry plant.
(57:10):
We had gosh.
What else did we?
Kat Lee (57:10):
have.
We had a full garden kale.
Shawn Frazier (57:14):
The kale was blowing up, but it was taking me
an hour and a half to two hoursa day to haul water out to the
garden and water and then gotake care of the horses and then
get to work and it was like I'mburnt out, had to let you know.
I let the garden go in stageswhere it's like, okay, I'm just
(57:35):
going to focus on this, I'm justgoing to focus on this, and
then it got to where it's like,okay, I'm gonna water the
blueberry bushes and I'm gonnawater the asparagus.
That's all I got time for.
Take care of the horses, makesure they're alive, and then, as
far as like, around the house,the house wasn't perfectly clean
, you know, definitely not,definitely not.
(57:55):
So, yeah, you didn't have toworry about am I going to be
able to take care of this guy oris this guy going to be able to
take care of himself?
I also didn't have to worrythat I didn't do things
perfectly.
I didn't have to worry you weregoing to come home and say what
happened to this.
What is this doing here?
How come this is that way?
You know, we both having anunderstanding of being on a team
(58:21):
, we both realize each other aredoing the best, like I wasn't
slacking off.
I wasn't slacking off, youweren't slacking off, I wasn't
slaving away while you were juston vacation, you know so,
whereas you didn't have to worryabout me, it made me feel good
(58:42):
that you weren't worried aboutme.
I didn't want you worried aboutme and I didn't have to worry
about you coming home andnitpicking the way I maintained
everything.
Yeah, so I think, if I'mthinking of a secure
relationship, I look at thatexperience and I think one.
We had an enormous stressor onour relationship and at no time
(59:08):
did I start to feel like crackswere forming, so to speak, and
also I just feel like I feellike it just reinforced all of
the things that have made ourrelationship strong and good.
Kat Lee (59:30):
I think that that goes back to that like core framework
of ours, which is like make themost generous assumption of the
other person, you know, assumethat the other person is doing
their best and I feel like thatshuts down so much insecurity
and shuts down so much of likepotential arguments that could
(59:55):
happen, because another way thatthat could have gone is because
I do have a tendency to be alittle bit perfectionistic Is
like Just look at the husband.
You found perfect um but likeanother way that could have gone
(01:00:19):
is like you have a history ofnot doing your best, history of
not doing your best.
You know you have a history oflike slacking off and you know,
like not meeting not even thestandards of the house or the
(01:00:40):
relationship, but like notmeeting the standards of
yourself yeah, I mean at timeslike certainly you know, but
like if there was like along-standing history of that,
like I'm just thinking of myex-husband, like part of the way
that I think I would havethought in that relationship is
(01:01:02):
like I can't make the mostgenerous assumption of you,
because I know this isn't yourbest, you know, and so I think
that when there is concertedeffort on both sides and then
when we aren't meeting ourstandards of you know, ourselves
(01:01:25):
or our relationshipsexpectations, it's not well,
what's wrong with you?
You need to fix this.
It's like hey, like I wonderwhat's going on with you yeah
you know if we can sort ofapproach those moments where we
aren't doing our best curiosityinstead of contention and
instead of judgment.
(01:01:46):
Yeah, because certainly like wedon't we don't do our best all
the time but in those momentswhere we fall short it's like
okay, so can we step intocuriosity.
Shawn Frazier (01:01:58):
Yeah.
Kat Lee (01:02:00):
Can we?
Shawn Frazier (01:02:00):
step into compassion.
Yeah, and If your teammates notdoing your best, it doesn't
help the team to kick them whilethey're down.
You know you're on my team If,if you're struggling in any way
there's like even like cynicalways to look at this.
The best thing I can do formyself is not to dunk on you.
(01:02:26):
You know, the best thing I cando for myself is help you get
back up to form yeah you knowit's the best thing for you and
it's best thing for therelationship, whereas you know
getting into blaming or gettinginto like I just don't get it, I
don't you know why are youdoing this?
Like when, when you'restruggling to do your best and
(01:02:48):
somebody's acting like you'rejust choosing to be lazy in a
certain way, or you're just likeyou're choosing to fall short,
that's not helpful.
Yeah, you know.
So that general, that spirit ofgenerosity and like what's
going on?
yeah like I guess, like kind ofto go back on, you know, I think
(01:03:11):
you mentioned financialcompetency, where it was like I
seemed to be a little bit morefinancially secure and
knowledgeable and you weren'tthere.
Math is hard man, sure.
Sure I mean.
But the spirit of generosityfor me is like, well, I wonder
(01:03:32):
what your experience is like,not like what's wrong with you,
you know, I'm like hmm, I havethis wonderful person here.
She's smart, she's capable andshe's kind of ignorant in
certain areas.
What is that?
And she's kind of ignorant incertain areas.
What is that about?
Not, she's?
(01:03:52):
What a loser.
Wow, she's not as smart as Ithink she is.
Like no, my read is correctYou're smart and capable.
Let's investigate and seewhat's going on.
Yeah, you know.
And then the great thing aboutthat is you got up to speed and
then we had a little teamwork, alittle powwow, and now I'm even
(01:04:14):
on a new plateau, financiallyspeaking, as far as, like,
planning, budgeting,prioritizing.
So yeah, I think that spirit ofgenerosity and assuming that
somebody is doing their best, Ithink that's of generosity and
assuming that somebody is doingtheir best, I think that's
important.
Kat Lee (01:04:31):
Yeah.
So one of the things that Iwant to be asking each of my
guests at the end of eachepisode is the title of this
podcast is Emotional AlchemyPodcast.
What do you, how do youinterpret that?
What is your definition ofemotional alchemy and how has
(01:04:51):
that showed up in your life?
I'm putting you on the fly.
I didn't tell you, I didn'twant you to know that, that's
okay, I've actually got a prettygood answer.
Shawn Frazier (01:05:02):
Um, when I think of emotional alchemy, when I
hear that phrase, what I thinkof is what I think of is
emotional control, which is notromantically controlling your
(01:05:24):
emotions.
When I think of emotionalcontrol, I think of observing an
emotion, integrating it andmoving on.
And uh, you know, like me anddonovan have had conversations
donovan's, his best friend yeah,best buds, where he's been told
(01:05:46):
like, oh, like, you should goto therapy.
You're avoiding your emotions.
Well, he's not avoiding hisemotions.
I don't avoid my emotions, Ijust don't.
I'm not controlled by them.
So for me, emotional alchemy isabout experiencing your
(01:06:12):
emotions in a way that is safeand healthy and if they're
taking control of you,investigating that and trying to
find out what's going on.
I mean, now I think about it.
(01:06:33):
Before we moved here and beforewe moved on to our land and all
that I had like an emotionalnot there was like an anxiety I
had do you remember that?
Where it was like what is this?
And I remember we just leanedinto that, paid attention to
that, felt it out.
(01:06:56):
What's going on?
What am I feeling?
Why am I feeling this way?
It wasn't about getting rid ofthose feelings.
It was about naming them,categorizing them, putting your
finger on them, seeing what theyare and why they're there.
Kat Lee (01:07:17):
So that's my interpretation of emotional
alchemy.
Lovely, does that answer thequestion?
Yeah, well, thank you for beingmy emotional support person as
I lean into restarting thispodcast again.
I was really excited to do itbut I think I had, like you know
, first day jitters.
And thanks for being you,thanks for being my honey and uh
(01:07:44):
, you're so welcome you're noton the socials so I can't.
Usually, usually, uh, I invitepeople to to find my guests on
social media but, you don't dothe social find me through her
all right.
(01:08:04):
Well, I'm hoping to have manymore conversations on the
podcast with you.
So if you're listening, andyou've listened this far and
you're kind of interested, we'lltake questions.
So if you have, dm me oncathosuly.
We'll see you soon.
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