March 10, 2024 • 37 mins
Step into the shoes of Pancho Villa, the enigmatic figure whose raid on Columbus, New Mexico, became a legendary act of defiance. Join us, Johnny and Drew, as we uncover Villa's journey from an outlaw to a revolutionary leader, challenging the United States in a brazen border conflict. Through the smoldering ruins of Columbus, we piece together the fateful events of March 9, 1916, scrutinizing Villa's motives and the turbulent sociopolitical landscape that fueled his crusade. We promise an expedition through history that's as enlightening as it is thrilling, revealing the intricate dance of revolution and retaliation that shaped the future of U.S.-Mexico relations.
Witness the dawn of modern military maneuvers as we recount the aftermath of Villa's audacious attack and the subsequent Punitive Expedition led by General "Blackjack" Pershing, marking the first instance of airplanes in U.S. military history. The legacy of Villa, the Centaur of the North, remains as captivating as the mirrored saloon that stood unscathed amidst destruction. Together, we'll explore the might and mythology, the strategic blunders and the legendary escapes, all converging to paint a vivid portrait of a time when revolutionaries and generals pushed the boundaries of warfare and diplomacy. The Men of Enchantment, your time-traveling guides, bringing the past to life with facts, anecdotes, and a healthy dose of reflection on the shadows cast by yesterday's conflicts onto today's geopolitical stage.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Enchantment Chronicles featuring
Johnny the man of Enchantmentand I'm Drew.
Today we'll be talking aboutthe Pancho Villa raid on
Columbus, new Mexico, of March 9, 1916.
Alright, drew.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Today's Pancho Villa huh.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, it was the first time the United States had
been invaded since the War of1812, which I guess would have
been 104 years before if my mathis right.
Columbus, new Mexico in 1916,was a sleepy little town, the
home of Fort Furlong, whichwould host about 500 soldiers
(00:57):
typically, but on the night ofMarch 9, only about 350 were
present, to add to a localpopulation of about 330 Mexican
and American citizens.
That night, pancho Villasrevolutionaries would shadow the
(01:21):
piece of the town.
Sometime after the moon wentdown around 4 am, they attacked
Columbus, attacked Fort Furlong,crying Viva Villa and death to
the gringos, according to someaccounts, and would wind up
(01:42):
killing 10 soldiers and 8civilians during the raid.
But that wasn't the first timeViva had visited the United
States, right, johnny?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
That's correct.
Pancho Villa would come backand forth around El Paso.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Is that right?
Yes, yes.
He escaped from prison andeventually fled to El Paso in
late 1912 and early 1913.
He spent a few months there.
Just to give a littlebackground on the Mexican
revolution, villa had supportedPresident Medero, who was able
(02:41):
to successfully overthrowPorfirio Díaz after decades of
kind of misrule.
But general Victoriano Huertahad insisted that Medero in
prison.
Villa and Medero, kind ofhoping to compromise with Huerta
, had actually agreed to do soand refused to pardon Villa,
(03:07):
even though there were appealsfrom the governor, chihuahua and
others to let Villa go.
But ultimately that attempt toappease Victoriano Huerta
completely failed.
And so there's 10 days oftragedy, from February 9th to
19th, when President Medero wasoverthrown and killed.
(03:31):
Luckily for Villa he'd escapedon Christmas Day of 1912.
Before then, just as in thefirst year of New Mexico's
statehood, he escapes by bribinga clerk at the jail for a
hacksaw and a lawyer suit.
He walks out and eventuallymakes it to El Paso and spends a
(03:57):
few months in El Paso alongwith that clerk that helped him
escape.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And so what was he doing in El Paso?
Just?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I guess supplies, supplies, and he's gathering
troops.
He's going to go and take onHuerta.
He's.
He speaks pretty highly ofMedero, but more importantly,
villa had viewed a mentor,abraham Gonzalez, who had
rescued him from a life inviolence, and he referred to
(04:34):
that, to Gonzalez, as a noblemartyr for democracy.
And in his memoirs he writes he, gonzalez, invited me to fight
for the revolution, for therights of the people that had
been trampled on by tyranny.
There I understood for thefirst time that all the
suffering, all the hatred, allthe rebellions that had
accumulated in my soul during somany years of fighting had
(04:57):
given me the strength and ofconviction and such clear will
that I could offer my country tofree her from the snakes that
were devouring her entrails.
So he's determined, he's goingto go back and fight, he's going
to avenge Medero and he's goingto avenge Gonzalez, who'd been
(05:19):
executed shortly after this asHuerta was consolidating power.
So he manages to raise a totalof eight troops before he
crosses back into New Mexico.
Eight followers, his prisonclerk among them.
He has nine horses, one threefollower, nine rifles, 4,000
(05:43):
cartridges, two pounds of sugarand a pound of salt.
And that's how the most wellorganized of the Mexican
Revolutionary Divisions begins.
It's the Division del Norte, soyou know it's kind of reforming
after the initial success.
(06:04):
He gathers more and morerecruits across Mexico and he's
not really a politician, so hecarries out these raids.
And what do they call PanchoVilla, johnny?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
The Mexican Robin Hood yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, both sides of the border.
He's got a few stories, thatsort of support, that reputation
, but then there's some kind ofscary ones.
He robbed a bank of about50,000 pesos, but he distributed
most of that money to peoplethat he saw as meeting it.
(06:45):
He raids, corrupt merchants andgives away their wares and
forces them to sell them atsubstantial discounts, which you
know.
I'm sure that's his perceptionof corruption.
He certainly does administersummary justice, including
(07:05):
summary executions and places.
But as he's committing thesecrimes or revolutionary acts,
whatever your perception is,he's gathering more and more
followers to him because there'sa perception that the power for
(07:27):
certainly oppressing the poorin Mexico, and so he becomes
kind of a hero, you know, but onthe other hand, yeah, he'll
execute you.
He robs a train of silver andhe uses it to buy food,
ammunition and weapons fromAmerican merchants.
(07:48):
This is actually formallyallowed by President Wilson
because of the perception thatthe Mexican government you know
that Huerta is, you know, athreat to the United States
they're allowing him to makethese purchases, but Vía has a
(08:09):
very fraught relationship withthe United States, as we'll
explore.
We're not even sure why heattacks Columbus.
There's at least four differenttheories going, but he does.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So, what is the story .
So I had always heard the bigreason why he did it was trying
to.
He was trying to go the UnitedStates into war with Mexico to
overthrow.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Huerta.
That theory is kind ofsupported by something we see in
the National Archives.
There's a story that he'sbasically trying to prove that
Huerta is a threat to them andaccording to that story, general
John J Pershing was receivingintelligence reports as soon asa
(09:04):
couple of months earlier inJanuary, that Vía was going to
make an attack on US territorythat would causehesia the
Americans to intervene.
That's embarrassing.
We're trying to grant agovernment that that time VS
fighting against.
But at the time Pershing isused to hearing these oh,
(09:28):
there's going to be an attack.
You know that's just kind of aregular thing, so they didn't
pay any particular attention toit.
There's another theory that Uh,that Via is actually punishing
President Wilson because Wilsonallowed 5,000 Mexican troops to
(09:52):
come from Eagle Pass, texas,that town that's In the news
today.
I think that's where theNational Guard, texas National
Guard, is camped out, um.
But he allowed 5,000 Mexicantroops to go on via train from
Eagle Pass, texas, to Douglas,arizona, and they had crossed
the border into Agua Prieta, um,back in November of 1915, and
(10:21):
that's kind of via waterloo.
Those 5,000 troops Ended a longrun of success of VS
Revolutionary Um division downnorth.
Okay, because those kind ofZista troops were able to
reinforce that Agua Prieta anddeliver a telling defeat.
(10:43):
So there's a theory that via istrying to um avenge that and
and warn the United States away.
And then there's another one,um.
The second theory is the onethat I had heard, and then it's
(11:03):
most kind of ridiculous.
I can't find any confirmation,but this is the one that I'd
heard.
What, what, what's that theory,johnny?
You talking?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
about the movie blank theory yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
The theory that somebody sold them blank
ammunition Mm hmm, it wasdestined for the movie theaters.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah.
So I'm not sure how true thatis, but, um, there is a theory
that some someone had sold himat least bad ammunition in some
versions, yes, you see it asmovie blanks, um and that had
helped with the defeat.
That sounds kind of a sounds alittle fishy, but there is an
(11:50):
account that I've actually heardfrom my family members.
It kind of supports, um, thattheory.
Uh, in that theory there's aguy named um Sam Ravel, who's a
rebel I'm not sure how you sayit RA VL who said to a double
(12:11):
crossed Vian a gun deal.
But there's a fella from Deming, raymond Reed, who, um,
eventually would open a companycalled steer safe.
He was the superintendent ofDeming public schools for a
while, um, and my father-in-lawactually worked for him.
So I've heard this story fromboth my father-in-law and a
(12:33):
brother-in-law that you knowRaymond Reed was fond of saying
he was born in the territory ofsome pre 1912, uh, people were
fond of saying.
But he was visiting hismaternal uncle in Columbus from
Deming, um on that night and hegets woken up and, like a lot of
(13:03):
the people from Columbus, he'sgoing to flee into the desert.
But according to both myfather-in-law and my
brother-in-law they said, hisuncle woke him up and put him on
a horse and he said you ridelike horse, you ride this horse
like held a Deming until it diesand when it dies you get off
and run Um.
(13:25):
So he does, he rides the horse,it dies on the path and he gets
off and runs all the way toDeming and he survives.
But he told that story all theway up until his death.
And his uncle did own amercantile, um, given that you
(13:49):
know, via had a reputation forattacking merchants.
You know, it's unknown whetherthat would have been the same
guy that supposedly sold the badammunition, or if it was just
what he was trying to do, um, orif he was just trying to read
that mercantile for for suppliesthat he was in desperate need
(14:10):
of.
And then, as we were readingthrough this, we found one more
possible story, and that one wasrelated in the El Paso times as
soon as the next day, january10th of 1916.
Do you know that one, Johnny?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I don't know very well.
All I know is um had somethingto do with, uh, the.
He was trying to target theAmerican mining interests or
what it what?
What was it?
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So there had been a massacre earlier at a place
called San Isabel where someAmerican miners were pulled off
of a train, stripped and andshot.
Um and a guy named Pablo Lopez,who was at Columbus at the
(15:13):
rating second in command, um,was held generally responsible
for that massacre, and so the ElPaso times on the next day
reports that among the raiderskilled was Pablo Lopez, second
in command, the man heldpersonally responsible for the
Santa Isabel massacre.
The fact that he was with viaindicates that his chief planned
(15:36):
the murder of the Americans whoare en route to the mines of
the Coosie mining company.
So that's, that was what a wideimpression was at the time.
It's interesting that via hadpromised to punish the people
responsible for the San Isabelmassacre, which um would seem to
(15:58):
indicate that he wasn't tryingto antagonize America.
But it's hard to it's hard tosee how he's not thinking that
crossing the border andattacking a town with an army
fort isn't going to antagonizeAmerica.
But the moral of the story iswe're just not sure what via was
thinking, um.
But it has a whole lot ofrepercussions all the way down
(16:20):
to today.
But we should talk about theraid itself, right, johnny?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
We can.
That'd be great.
It was took place on oh Arch9th 1916.
Is that right Yep.
Early in the morning PonchoVilla came across.
What four or five in themorning when it was dark?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
He had heard, through scouts I believe, that there
were not many people, not manysoldiers at the barracks and he
had heard that there was someammunition and other supplies.
So I think he had thought thatthere were about 50 soldiers at
(17:04):
that location.
What was it?
Camp Furlong?
Yes, mm-hmm, right, and he.
So he comes across, they comeacross.
And they were met not with 50,but what?
350, 400 troops.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, 350 or so troops, the attack is successful
.
In fact, some of the accountsindicate that it's like this
miserable failure in the part ofthe army.
There's reports that themachine guns were jamming, that
soldiers couldn't locate thekeys to their armory so they had
to break the locks, but lateryou see even some retractions,
(17:45):
some corrections, that kind ofpoint out.
Well, suddenly they wereattacked at the dead of night
and by hundreds of Mexicanrevolutionaries, by, you know,
over 500 to 350.
So, with a numerical advantage,they were attacked at the dead
of night and within an hour theyhad organized an effective
(18:05):
defense and started driving therevolutionaries back and they
managed to only lose 10 of theirnumber, I believe, during that
attack, with a few morecasualties.
But in the meanwhile Columbusis pretty much destroyed.
(18:26):
If you look, you see in one ofthe pictures we have, the
central area of Columbus hadbeen burned to the ground.
People are taking refuge in anold Adobe hotel there because
it's a little more fireresistant.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Burned down right.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
No, the Hoover hotel survived, I think, and then an
old schoolhouse, but most of thebusiness district did burn down
.
Three Americans that died werecremated, basically in another
burning hotel that just isincinerated.
(19:14):
You said that that was thefirst, almost the first light
that they could see the Mexicanraiders by right.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Right.
I read that when the Mexicanslit that on fire, the Americans
were having trouble to see theMexicans as they were riding
around, but that fire helpedglow the area, eliminate the
(19:44):
area and they were easy to pickoff, if you will.
So it kind of backfired on theMexicans and lit in that hotel.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, and, like I said, three American civilians
did die taking refuge in that inat least one of the hotels
there that does burn down.
The Deming Museum actually hasthis huge bar-length mirror from
a saloon that supposedly is thekind of miraculously survived
(20:20):
the raid, because the entirerest of the saloon gets
completely shot up, but for somereason this mirror that's, you
know good, I don't know morethan a dozen feet long and a few
feet tall.
Its glass was intact, as allthese bullets are flying
(20:40):
everywhere.
So I'm not sure how that workedout.
But similarly, you know,there's kind of miraculous that
fewer people were killed but alot of them, you know, just took
off into the desert while thearmy organized its defense.
It didn't really work out forVia in the short term, right,
(21:04):
jenny?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
No, he didn't really.
They didn't really accomplishtheir mission well, depending on
what their mission was, but itdid result in lots of casualties
.
Of the Viestas about 190, 200casualties out of 500.
(21:29):
In the United States only losta handful of people Seven US
soldiers dead, five wounded outof 350, and only a few civilians
dead and wounded.
So most of the well, almosthalf of the Mexican raiders died
.
I wonder, drew, if that wasbecause of the machine guns.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, you know, they certainly had them outgunned
after a minute.
I don't know exactly, but theydid pursue them.
They lost over 60 in the raidon the town itself once the
defense was organized.
And then VIA himself covers theretreat.
About 30 men with rifles arefiring down on a hilltop.
(22:17):
But that covering the retreatdoesn't really work out.
Over 100 are said to have beenkilled as they passed across the
border.
And just to give you an idea ofthe geography Columbus is, it's
a port of entry to the UnitedStates.
It's even up until a few yearsago I don't know if this is
(22:40):
still true, but there wereschool buses going back and
forth across the border lettingAmerican citizens that lived on
the Mexican side come across toUS schools here and there in
Columbus.
So you know it's a very porousborder there and the army
(23:05):
manages to pursue and kill about100 as they're crossing who
knows which side of the border.
You know the actual fightinggoes on there, it's just.
But it's clearly yet anothercrushing defeat for VIA and he
(23:26):
didn't really get, you know, allthe stuff he was trying to get
out of.
He was trying to get ammunitionand food and weapons.
You know that didn't work outfor him either, and then, within
another week or so, there's aretaliatory expedition, the
punitive expedition.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
The punitive expedition led by General
Blackjack Pershing.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
On Blackjack Pershing .
They launched it pretty quicklyafter the raid.
The raid happened on the 9thand the punitive expedition
started on the 16th of 1916.
Now wasn't Blackjack Pershing?
Wasn't he stationed in FortBliss and El Paso at that time?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yes, yeah, that's where he received that
intelligence he'd ignored and infact he'd been a veteran of
Texas and New Mexico.
He got the name Blackjack forcommanding the 10th troop of the
10th Cavalry Regiment ofBuffalo soldiers during the
Indian war period, so he'snicknamed that for serving with
(24:36):
African American soldiers.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
And, of course, a lot of people.
For those who don't know whoBlackjack Pershing is, he ended
up leading the army in World WarI in the European conflict.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yes, yes, and in fact serving under him is another
general, general Patton, whobecame, you know, a leading
general in World War II, in theEuropean Theater and the North
African Theater, a leading tankcommander.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Patton wasn't a general at that time.
He was a young soldier at thattime.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Right, right.
But he sees this punitiveexpedition which goes for almost
a year, all the way to February14th of 1917.
He sees military tacticsevolving and military equipment
(25:32):
evolving rapidly.
They send what?
14,000 regular army troopsacross the border into Mexico to
hunt for VIA and kept another140,000 army and National Guard
troops patrolling on the border.
But there were some big changesin the troop formations, right,
(25:58):
johnny yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
This is the first time the airplanes were used in
mission, is that right?
And the military mission forthe United States is the first
time airplanes were used and ifI remember correctly, there were
(26:22):
hangars all throughout with LosCruces and Deming and Columbus.
Yeah, this also goes towards asa precursor.
This area where they practicedis kind of the precursor for all
the later.
The missiles and everythingnearby and in white sands and
(26:44):
the horn on it don't work.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
So yeah, some of those hangers, I think are still
in existence in Demi.
You can drive past them.
You know the hatch chili plantdown there.
I forget what it's called now,it's not called the hatch chili
plant, but but uh, that that airreconnaissance wasn't
successful.
Um, in fact, nothing wassuccessful.
(27:06):
Uh, in terms of catching via,he gets another nickname.
He gets the nickname thecentaur of the north because
he's you know, he useseverything.
He uses automobiles, he's hismotorcycle.
At one point he rides horsebackacross the rugged terrain.
Um, and the planes that theysent weren't really successful,
(27:30):
that within um, within a fewweeks, they're, they're, they're
losing planes to the?
Um.
I don't see a lot of reports ofcrashes or anything, but they,
the planes aren't holding up.
Basically, they're down to twoplanes within a couple months.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So the punitive expedition lasted for about a
year.
Uh, if I remember correctlyfrom reading, way back when it
served as a training ground,getting the truth ready for
world war one.
We tested out a lot of ourmachinery machine guns, planes.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Harvick cars yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, armored cars?
We never.
But we didn't catch.
We didn't catch via and umwhat's the same?
Maybe we didn't really intendto.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, yeah, there's, there's some speculation there,
um, and eventually they're.
They're Pulled back, notbecause out of despair.
They they feel like via is nolonger a threat to the united
states.
They feel like um.
The president says you know, Ithat the he feels the border has
(28:44):
been secured, essentially, um,and via doesn't read you know
the united states again at anypoint.
Um, meanwhile, you knowsoldiers like patin and pershing
, or learning how the shape ofwarfare is changing.
It's a moment, not unlike whatwe're seeing today.
We're um drone warfare andunmanned vehicles are
(29:09):
revolutionizing war.
Um, at that point, it's armoredcars and tanks and airplanes
that are changing the shape ofwar, and we'll see that in a
more dramatic fashion duringworld war one.
Just a yeah just, with theunited states coming in just
within that year.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I think you know.
One thing I find interestingabout this piece of history is
obviously this was Columbus inthis area is in the what was
known as the geths and purchase.
Yes, right, and one of the howdo I say?
(29:51):
One of the clauses of thetreaty of Guadalupe Haldago,
prior to the geths and purchase.
One of those clauses was toensure safety and peace on in
this strip, of course.
Then the geths and purchasecame along and that supposedly,
(30:13):
was going to fix some of thoseissues of who is going to be
responsible for the Safety ofthe people.
So it's interesting to me thatI don't know, for a hundred
years or so this area was one ofthe most I don't know if you
would say dangerous, but One ofthe more interesting periods or
(30:38):
places in the united states whenit came to safety and peace of
the People.
And this kind of just furtheredthat fear that had been there
for a long time already, in thatin that area, no, you're right,
it's uh.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
One of the headlines of the El Paso times from that
next day said the attack onMexico border town was carried
out with cruelty and ruthlesscunning Unknown in the united
states since the days ofGeronimo.
And of course, geronimo had alsoBeen operating in that same
strip from, you know, the, themountains of southern new mexico
(31:17):
to the mountains of northernair of northern mexico, that's,
that's where he'd been Fightingand and even the train ride.
It's one of our theories,johnny, they, where they let the
mexican soldiers pass from egopass to douglas, ego pass texas
to douglas, arizona, that thatvery train is put in Um Along a
(31:43):
path that we really didn't haveaccess to without the gadden
purchase that another reason forthe united states have tried to
purchase, that is, to get arailway connection to the
pacific and um, and to get a wayto bypass some of those rugged
mountains that, uh, that we knowof as the white mountains and
(32:04):
the healer wilderness today.
So, um, that's part of why thatarea was so dangerous was
people, you know, rebels andrevolutionaries, and um, and you
know People like geronimo couldhide out in those mountains,
and getting that train travelwas essential to pacifying it.
(32:24):
So we commemorate that that uhraid today, right, johnny?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, it's, it's now at new mexico steak park, where
the armory was.
I don't know if you've beenthere drew, but you can camp.
There's a nice little museum,you can camp there yeah it has
some Buildings that are stillstanding under Protected areas.
It's pretty neat.
I camped there a few years ago,so it's pretty remote.
(32:56):
You can see the border from itand pretty eerily.
If you head West from it on themost southern road in new
mexico and the most southernroad in the united states, you
can see that border patrol wall.
Okay, that's out there.
That's pretty creepy.
It goes past the.
The Continental divide startsjust west of columbus.
(33:20):
Right there the continentaldivide trail and the continental
divide is just west, maybe 30,40, 50 miles.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, it is interesting territory.
If you drive down there,actually I think you Uh along
one of those roads that you cantake um, there's the Columbus
Highway, but a little over fromthere is a stationary blimp run
by the Border Patrol.
But you know, as long as it'snot too windy, you'll see that
blimp hovering in the air andI'm sure it's got all kinds of
(33:52):
cameras and sensors and arraysthat it uses to watch that
border along through that patchof desert in Luna County.
But yeah, I have been to themuseum.
It's well worth a visit.
You'll see some of those earlyI don't even know if you
(34:13):
wouldn't even really call themtanks or like armored cars and
and things that we were kind oftesting out at that time that
became a staple of, you know,world War One and World War Two
military technology.
So you can see a lot of thatand and and you'll hear a little
(34:36):
more about Pantra via how hewas assassinated in Mexico City,
I think in 1923, a kind offunny rumor that I've heard.
And again, this cannot becorroborated, but supposedly
after he was gunned down in ahail of bullets.
Supposedly his last words wereit can't end like this.
(35:00):
Tell them I said somethingwhich kind of fits into Pantra,
via his reputation as a man ofaction and not of words.
But but I'm pretty sure that'san apocryphal story.
I just it's kind of aninteresting one.
I recommend going to visit thatmuseum.
I've never camped there likeyou have, johnny, but it's a.
(35:23):
It's a really interesting placeto see and an interesting part
of New Mexico down there inColumbus.
And visit the Deming Museum too.
While you're at it.
Go see some of that historicaland prehistorical exhibits they
have there.
It's one of the better museumsin New Mexico, I think so.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
I think it's pretty great.
It's what about 20 miles?
Columbus is about 20 milessouth of Deming.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, I think so.
I think it's maybe a littlemore, but not much so.
But yeah, well, thanks, johnny.
This has been another episodeof the Enchantment Chronicles
highlighting the last invasionof the United States and the
(36:09):
first since 1812.
The Pantra via raid on Columbus, new Mexico.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
The mainland United States.
Obviously, we had Pearl Harbor.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.
Mainland, yeah, no problem.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, I just thought about that.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, I guess I mentioned invasion, you know,
because Pearl Harbor is abombing, obviously.
But yeah, you're right.
You're right, but it'sremarkable We've we've managed
to stay pretty safe in turbulenttimes since then.
All right, well, thanks Johnny.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
All right, we'll see you later next, next time, guys.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Thank you yeah.
Welcome to the Enchantment Chronicles featuring
Johnny the man of Enchantmentand I'm Drew.
Today we'll be talking aboutthe Pancho Villa raid on
Columbus, new Mexico, of March 9, 1916.
Alright, drew.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Today's Pancho Villa huh.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, it was the first time the United States had
been invaded since the War of1812, which I guess would have
been 104 years before if my mathis right.
Columbus, new Mexico in 1916,was a sleepy little town, the
home of Fort Furlong, whichwould host about 500 soldiers
(00:57):
typically, but on the night ofMarch 9, only about 350 were
present, to add to a localpopulation of about 330 Mexican
and American citizens.
That night, pancho Villasrevolutionaries would shadow the
(01:21):
piece of the town.
Sometime after the moon wentdown around 4 am, they attacked
Columbus, attacked Fort Furlong,crying Viva Villa and death to
the gringos, according to someaccounts, and would wind up
(01:42):
killing 10 soldiers and 8civilians during the raid.
But that wasn't the first timeViva had visited the United
States, right, johnny?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
That's correct.
Pancho Villa would come backand forth around El Paso.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Is that right?
Yes, yes.
He escaped from prison andeventually fled to El Paso in
late 1912 and early 1913.
He spent a few months there.
Just to give a littlebackground on the Mexican
revolution, villa had supportedPresident Medero, who was able
(02:41):
to successfully overthrowPorfirio Díaz after decades of
kind of misrule.
But general Victoriano Huertahad insisted that Medero in
prison.
Villa and Medero, kind ofhoping to compromise with Huerta
, had actually agreed to do soand refused to pardon Villa,
(03:07):
even though there were appealsfrom the governor, chihuahua and
others to let Villa go.
But ultimately that attempt toappease Victoriano Huerta
completely failed.
And so there's 10 days oftragedy, from February 9th to
19th, when President Medero wasoverthrown and killed.
(03:31):
Luckily for Villa he'd escapedon Christmas Day of 1912.
Before then, just as in thefirst year of New Mexico's
statehood, he escapes by bribinga clerk at the jail for a
hacksaw and a lawyer suit.
He walks out and eventuallymakes it to El Paso and spends a
(03:57):
few months in El Paso alongwith that clerk that helped him
escape.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And so what was he doing in El Paso?
Just?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I guess supplies, supplies, and he's gathering
troops.
He's going to go and take onHuerta.
He's.
He speaks pretty highly ofMedero, but more importantly,
villa had viewed a mentor,abraham Gonzalez, who had
rescued him from a life inviolence, and he referred to
(04:34):
that, to Gonzalez, as a noblemartyr for democracy.
And in his memoirs he writes he, gonzalez, invited me to fight
for the revolution, for therights of the people that had
been trampled on by tyranny.
There I understood for thefirst time that all the
suffering, all the hatred, allthe rebellions that had
accumulated in my soul during somany years of fighting had
(04:57):
given me the strength and ofconviction and such clear will
that I could offer my country tofree her from the snakes that
were devouring her entrails.
So he's determined, he's goingto go back and fight, he's going
to avenge Medero and he's goingto avenge Gonzalez, who'd been
(05:19):
executed shortly after this asHuerta was consolidating power.
So he manages to raise a totalof eight troops before he
crosses back into New Mexico.
Eight followers, his prisonclerk among them.
He has nine horses, one threefollower, nine rifles, 4,000
(05:43):
cartridges, two pounds of sugarand a pound of salt.
And that's how the most wellorganized of the Mexican
Revolutionary Divisions begins.
It's the Division del Norte, soyou know it's kind of reforming
after the initial success.
(06:04):
He gathers more and morerecruits across Mexico and he's
not really a politician, so hecarries out these raids.
And what do they call PanchoVilla, johnny?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
The Mexican Robin Hood yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, both sides of the border.
He's got a few stories, thatsort of support, that reputation
, but then there's some kind ofscary ones.
He robbed a bank of about50,000 pesos, but he distributed
most of that money to peoplethat he saw as meeting it.
(06:45):
He raids, corrupt merchants andgives away their wares and
forces them to sell them atsubstantial discounts, which you
know.
I'm sure that's his perceptionof corruption.
He certainly does administersummary justice, including
(07:05):
summary executions and places.
But as he's committing thesecrimes or revolutionary acts,
whatever your perception is,he's gathering more and more
followers to him because there'sa perception that the power for
(07:27):
certainly oppressing the poorin Mexico, and so he becomes
kind of a hero, you know, but onthe other hand, yeah, he'll
execute you.
He robs a train of silver andhe uses it to buy food,
ammunition and weapons fromAmerican merchants.
(07:48):
This is actually formallyallowed by President Wilson
because of the perception thatthe Mexican government you know
that Huerta is, you know, athreat to the United States
they're allowing him to makethese purchases, but Vía has a
(08:09):
very fraught relationship withthe United States, as we'll
explore.
We're not even sure why heattacks Columbus.
There's at least four differenttheories going, but he does.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So, what is the story .
So I had always heard the bigreason why he did it was trying
to.
He was trying to go the UnitedStates into war with Mexico to
overthrow.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Huerta.
That theory is kind ofsupported by something we see in
the National Archives.
There's a story that he'sbasically trying to prove that
Huerta is a threat to them andaccording to that story, general
John J Pershing was receivingintelligence reports as soon asa
(09:04):
couple of months earlier inJanuary, that Vía was going to
make an attack on US territorythat would causehesia the
Americans to intervene.
That's embarrassing.
We're trying to grant agovernment that that time VS
fighting against.
But at the time Pershing isused to hearing these oh,
(09:28):
there's going to be an attack.
You know that's just kind of aregular thing, so they didn't
pay any particular attention toit.
There's another theory that Uh,that Via is actually punishing
President Wilson because Wilsonallowed 5,000 Mexican troops to
(09:52):
come from Eagle Pass, texas,that town that's In the news
today.
I think that's where theNational Guard, texas National
Guard, is camped out, um.
But he allowed 5,000 Mexicantroops to go on via train from
Eagle Pass, texas, to Douglas,arizona, and they had crossed
the border into Agua Prieta, um,back in November of 1915, and
(10:21):
that's kind of via waterloo.
Those 5,000 troops Ended a longrun of success of VS
Revolutionary Um division downnorth.
Okay, because those kind ofZista troops were able to
reinforce that Agua Prieta anddeliver a telling defeat.
(10:43):
So there's a theory that via istrying to um avenge that and
and warn the United States away.
And then there's another one,um.
The second theory is the onethat I had heard, and then it's
(11:03):
most kind of ridiculous.
I can't find any confirmation,but this is the one that I'd
heard.
What, what, what's that theory,johnny?
You talking?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
about the movie blank theory yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
The theory that somebody sold them blank
ammunition Mm hmm, it wasdestined for the movie theaters.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah.
So I'm not sure how true thatis, but, um, there is a theory
that some someone had sold himat least bad ammunition in some
versions, yes, you see it asmovie blanks, um and that had
helped with the defeat.
That sounds kind of a sounds alittle fishy, but there is an
(11:50):
account that I've actually heardfrom my family members.
It kind of supports, um, thattheory.
Uh, in that theory there's aguy named um Sam Ravel, who's a
rebel I'm not sure how you sayit RA VL who said to a double
(12:11):
crossed Vian a gun deal.
But there's a fella from Deming, raymond Reed, who, um,
eventually would open a companycalled steer safe.
He was the superintendent ofDeming public schools for a
while, um, and my father-in-lawactually worked for him.
So I've heard this story fromboth my father-in-law and a
(12:33):
brother-in-law that you knowRaymond Reed was fond of saying
he was born in the territory ofsome pre 1912, uh, people were
fond of saying.
But he was visiting hismaternal uncle in Columbus from
Deming, um on that night and hegets woken up and, like a lot of
(13:03):
the people from Columbus, he'sgoing to flee into the desert.
But according to both myfather-in-law and my
brother-in-law they said, hisuncle woke him up and put him on
a horse and he said you ridelike horse, you ride this horse
like held a Deming until it diesand when it dies you get off
and run Um.
(13:25):
So he does, he rides the horse,it dies on the path and he gets
off and runs all the way toDeming and he survives.
But he told that story all theway up until his death.
And his uncle did own amercantile, um, given that you
(13:49):
know, via had a reputation forattacking merchants.
You know, it's unknown whetherthat would have been the same
guy that supposedly sold the badammunition, or if it was just
what he was trying to do, um, orif he was just trying to read
that mercantile for for suppliesthat he was in desperate need
(14:10):
of.
And then, as we were readingthrough this, we found one more
possible story, and that one wasrelated in the El Paso times as
soon as the next day, january10th of 1916.
Do you know that one, Johnny?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I don't know very well.
All I know is um had somethingto do with, uh, the.
He was trying to target theAmerican mining interests or
what it what?
What was it?
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So there had been a massacre earlier at a place
called San Isabel where someAmerican miners were pulled off
of a train, stripped and andshot.
Um and a guy named Pablo Lopez,who was at Columbus at the
(15:13):
rating second in command, um,was held generally responsible
for that massacre, and so the ElPaso times on the next day
reports that among the raiderskilled was Pablo Lopez, second
in command, the man heldpersonally responsible for the
Santa Isabel massacre.
The fact that he was with viaindicates that his chief planned
(15:36):
the murder of the Americans whoare en route to the mines of
the Coosie mining company.
So that's, that was what a wideimpression was at the time.
It's interesting that via hadpromised to punish the people
responsible for the San Isabelmassacre, which um would seem to
(15:58):
indicate that he wasn't tryingto antagonize America.
But it's hard to it's hard tosee how he's not thinking that
crossing the border andattacking a town with an army
fort isn't going to antagonizeAmerica.
But the moral of the story iswe're just not sure what via was
thinking, um.
But it has a whole lot ofrepercussions all the way down
(16:20):
to today.
But we should talk about theraid itself, right, johnny?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
We can.
That'd be great.
It was took place on oh Arch9th 1916.
Is that right Yep.
Early in the morning PonchoVilla came across.
What four or five in themorning when it was dark?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
He had heard, through scouts I believe, that there
were not many people, not manysoldiers at the barracks and he
had heard that there was someammunition and other supplies.
So I think he had thought thatthere were about 50 soldiers at
(17:04):
that location.
What was it?
Camp Furlong?
Yes, mm-hmm, right, and he.
So he comes across, they comeacross.
And they were met not with 50,but what?
350, 400 troops.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, 350 or so troops, the attack is successful
.
In fact, some of the accountsindicate that it's like this
miserable failure in the part ofthe army.
There's reports that themachine guns were jamming, that
soldiers couldn't locate thekeys to their armory so they had
to break the locks, but lateryou see even some retractions,
(17:45):
some corrections, that kind ofpoint out.
Well, suddenly they wereattacked at the dead of night
and by hundreds of Mexicanrevolutionaries, by, you know,
over 500 to 350.
So, with a numerical advantage,they were attacked at the dead
of night and within an hour theyhad organized an effective
(18:05):
defense and started driving therevolutionaries back and they
managed to only lose 10 of theirnumber, I believe, during that
attack, with a few morecasualties.
But in the meanwhile Columbusis pretty much destroyed.
(18:26):
If you look, you see in one ofthe pictures we have, the
central area of Columbus hadbeen burned to the ground.
People are taking refuge in anold Adobe hotel there because
it's a little more fireresistant.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Burned down right.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
No, the Hoover hotel survived, I think, and then an
old schoolhouse, but most of thebusiness district did burn down
.
Three Americans that died werecremated, basically in another
burning hotel that just isincinerated.
(19:14):
You said that that was thefirst, almost the first light
that they could see the Mexicanraiders by right.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Right.
I read that when the Mexicanslit that on fire, the Americans
were having trouble to see theMexicans as they were riding
around, but that fire helpedglow the area, eliminate the
(19:44):
area and they were easy to pickoff, if you will.
So it kind of backfired on theMexicans and lit in that hotel.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, and, like I said, three American civilians
did die taking refuge in that inat least one of the hotels
there that does burn down.
The Deming Museum actually hasthis huge bar-length mirror from
a saloon that supposedly is thekind of miraculously survived
(20:20):
the raid, because the entirerest of the saloon gets
completely shot up, but for somereason this mirror that's, you
know good, I don't know morethan a dozen feet long and a few
feet tall.
Its glass was intact, as allthese bullets are flying
(20:40):
everywhere.
So I'm not sure how that workedout.
But similarly, you know,there's kind of miraculous that
fewer people were killed but alot of them, you know, just took
off into the desert while thearmy organized its defense.
It didn't really work out forVia in the short term, right,
(21:04):
jenny?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
No, he didn't really.
They didn't really accomplishtheir mission well, depending on
what their mission was, but itdid result in lots of casualties
.
Of the Viestas about 190, 200casualties out of 500.
(21:29):
In the United States only losta handful of people Seven US
soldiers dead, five wounded outof 350, and only a few civilians
dead and wounded.
So most of the well, almosthalf of the Mexican raiders died
.
I wonder, drew, if that wasbecause of the machine guns.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, you know, they certainly had them outgunned
after a minute.
I don't know exactly, but theydid pursue them.
They lost over 60 in the raidon the town itself once the
defense was organized.
And then VIA himself covers theretreat.
About 30 men with rifles arefiring down on a hilltop.
(22:17):
But that covering the retreatdoesn't really work out.
Over 100 are said to have beenkilled as they passed across the
border.
And just to give you an idea ofthe geography Columbus is, it's
a port of entry to the UnitedStates.
It's even up until a few yearsago I don't know if this is
(22:40):
still true, but there wereschool buses going back and
forth across the border lettingAmerican citizens that lived on
the Mexican side come across toUS schools here and there in
Columbus.
So you know it's a very porousborder there and the army
(23:05):
manages to pursue and kill about100 as they're crossing who
knows which side of the border.
You know the actual fightinggoes on there, it's just.
But it's clearly yet anothercrushing defeat for VIA and he
(23:26):
didn't really get, you know, allthe stuff he was trying to get
out of.
He was trying to get ammunitionand food and weapons.
You know that didn't work outfor him either, and then, within
another week or so, there's aretaliatory expedition, the
punitive expedition.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
The punitive expedition led by General
Blackjack Pershing.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
On Blackjack Pershing .
They launched it pretty quicklyafter the raid.
The raid happened on the 9thand the punitive expedition
started on the 16th of 1916.
Now wasn't Blackjack Pershing?
Wasn't he stationed in FortBliss and El Paso at that time?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yes, yeah, that's where he received that
intelligence he'd ignored and infact he'd been a veteran of
Texas and New Mexico.
He got the name Blackjack forcommanding the 10th troop of the
10th Cavalry Regiment ofBuffalo soldiers during the
Indian war period, so he'snicknamed that for serving with
(24:36):
African American soldiers.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
And, of course, a lot of people.
For those who don't know whoBlackjack Pershing is, he ended
up leading the army in World WarI in the European conflict.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yes, yes, and in fact serving under him is another
general, general Patton, whobecame, you know, a leading
general in World War II, in theEuropean Theater and the North
African Theater, a leading tankcommander.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Patton wasn't a general at that time.
He was a young soldier at thattime.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Right, right.
But he sees this punitiveexpedition which goes for almost
a year, all the way to February14th of 1917.
He sees military tacticsevolving and military equipment
(25:32):
evolving rapidly.
They send what?
14,000 regular army troopsacross the border into Mexico to
hunt for VIA and kept another140,000 army and National Guard
troops patrolling on the border.
But there were some big changesin the troop formations, right,
(25:58):
johnny yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
This is the first time the airplanes were used in
mission, is that right?
And the military mission forthe United States is the first
time airplanes were used and ifI remember correctly, there were
(26:22):
hangars all throughout with LosCruces and Deming and Columbus.
Yeah, this also goes towards asa precursor.
This area where they practicedis kind of the precursor for all
the later.
The missiles and everythingnearby and in white sands and
(26:44):
the horn on it don't work.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
So yeah, some of those hangers, I think are still
in existence in Demi.
You can drive past them.
You know the hatch chili plantdown there.
I forget what it's called now,it's not called the hatch chili
plant, but but uh, that that airreconnaissance wasn't
successful.
Um, in fact, nothing wassuccessful.
(27:06):
Uh, in terms of catching via,he gets another nickname.
He gets the nickname thecentaur of the north because
he's you know, he useseverything.
He uses automobiles, he's hismotorcycle.
At one point he rides horsebackacross the rugged terrain.
Um, and the planes that theysent weren't really successful,
(27:30):
that within um, within a fewweeks, they're, they're, they're
losing planes to the?
Um.
I don't see a lot of reports ofcrashes or anything, but they,
the planes aren't holding up.
Basically, they're down to twoplanes within a couple months.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So the punitive expedition lasted for about a
year.
Uh, if I remember correctlyfrom reading, way back when it
served as a training ground,getting the truth ready for
world war one.
We tested out a lot of ourmachinery machine guns, planes.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Harvick cars yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, armored cars?
We never.
But we didn't catch.
We didn't catch via and umwhat's the same?
Maybe we didn't really intendto.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, yeah, there's, there's some speculation there,
um, and eventually they're.
They're Pulled back, notbecause out of despair.
They they feel like via is nolonger a threat to the united
states.
They feel like um.
The president says you know, Ithat the he feels the border has
(28:44):
been secured, essentially, um,and via doesn't read you know
the united states again at anypoint.
Um, meanwhile, you knowsoldiers like patin and pershing
, or learning how the shape ofwarfare is changing.
It's a moment, not unlike whatwe're seeing today.
We're um drone warfare andunmanned vehicles are
(29:09):
revolutionizing war.
Um, at that point, it's armoredcars and tanks and airplanes
that are changing the shape ofwar, and we'll see that in a
more dramatic fashion duringworld war one.
Just a yeah just, with theunited states coming in just
within that year.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I think you know.
One thing I find interestingabout this piece of history is
obviously this was Columbus inthis area is in the what was
known as the geths and purchase.
Yes, right, and one of the howdo I say?
(29:51):
One of the clauses of thetreaty of Guadalupe Haldago,
prior to the geths and purchase.
One of those clauses was toensure safety and peace on in
this strip, of course.
Then the geths and purchasecame along and that supposedly,
(30:13):
was going to fix some of thoseissues of who is going to be
responsible for the Safety ofthe people.
So it's interesting to me thatI don't know, for a hundred
years or so this area was one ofthe most I don't know if you
would say dangerous, but One ofthe more interesting periods or
(30:38):
places in the united states whenit came to safety and peace of
the People.
And this kind of just furtheredthat fear that had been there
for a long time already, in thatin that area, no, you're right,
it's uh.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
One of the headlines of the El Paso times from that
next day said the attack onMexico border town was carried
out with cruelty and ruthlesscunning Unknown in the united
states since the days ofGeronimo.
And of course, geronimo had alsoBeen operating in that same
strip from, you know, the, themountains of southern new mexico
(31:17):
to the mountains of northernair of northern mexico, that's,
that's where he'd been Fightingand and even the train ride.
It's one of our theories,johnny, they, where they let the
mexican soldiers pass from egopass to douglas, ego pass texas
to douglas, arizona, that thatvery train is put in Um Along a
(31:43):
path that we really didn't haveaccess to without the gadden
purchase that another reason forthe united states have tried to
purchase, that is, to get arailway connection to the
pacific and um, and to get a wayto bypass some of those rugged
mountains that, uh, that we knowof as the white mountains and
(32:04):
the healer wilderness today.
So, um, that's part of why thatarea was so dangerous was
people, you know, rebels andrevolutionaries, and um, and you
know People like geronimo couldhide out in those mountains,
and getting that train travelwas essential to pacifying it.
(32:24):
So we commemorate that that uhraid today, right, johnny?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, it's, it's now at new mexico steak park, where
the armory was.
I don't know if you've beenthere drew, but you can camp.
There's a nice little museum,you can camp there yeah it has
some Buildings that are stillstanding under Protected areas.
It's pretty neat.
I camped there a few years ago,so it's pretty remote.
(32:56):
You can see the border from itand pretty eerily.
If you head West from it on themost southern road in new
mexico and the most southernroad in the united states, you
can see that border patrol wall.
Okay, that's out there.
That's pretty creepy.
It goes past the.
The Continental divide startsjust west of columbus.
(33:20):
Right there the continentaldivide trail and the continental
divide is just west, maybe 30,40, 50 miles.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, it is interesting territory.
If you drive down there,actually I think you Uh along
one of those roads that you cantake um, there's the Columbus
Highway, but a little over fromthere is a stationary blimp run
by the Border Patrol.
But you know, as long as it'snot too windy, you'll see that
blimp hovering in the air andI'm sure it's got all kinds of
(33:52):
cameras and sensors and arraysthat it uses to watch that
border along through that patchof desert in Luna County.
But yeah, I have been to themuseum.
It's well worth a visit.
You'll see some of those earlyI don't even know if you
(34:13):
wouldn't even really call themtanks or like armored cars and
and things that we were kind oftesting out at that time that
became a staple of, you know,world War One and World War Two
military technology.
So you can see a lot of thatand and and you'll hear a little
(34:36):
more about Pantra via how hewas assassinated in Mexico City,
I think in 1923, a kind offunny rumor that I've heard.
And again, this cannot becorroborated, but supposedly
after he was gunned down in ahail of bullets.
Supposedly his last words wereit can't end like this.
(35:00):
Tell them I said somethingwhich kind of fits into Pantra,
via his reputation as a man ofaction and not of words.
But but I'm pretty sure that'san apocryphal story.
I just it's kind of aninteresting one.
I recommend going to visit thatmuseum.
I've never camped there likeyou have, johnny, but it's a.
(35:23):
It's a really interesting placeto see and an interesting part
of New Mexico down there inColumbus.
And visit the Deming Museum too.
While you're at it.
Go see some of that historicaland prehistorical exhibits they
have there.
It's one of the better museumsin New Mexico, I think so.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
I think it's pretty great.
It's what about 20 miles?
Columbus is about 20 milessouth of Deming.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, I think so.
I think it's maybe a littlemore, but not much so.
But yeah, well, thanks, johnny.
This has been another episodeof the Enchantment Chronicles
highlighting the last invasionof the United States and the
(36:09):
first since 1812.
The Pantra via raid on Columbus, new Mexico.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
The mainland United States.
Obviously, we had Pearl Harbor.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.
Mainland, yeah, no problem.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, I just thought about that.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, I guess I mentioned invasion, you know,
because Pearl Harbor is abombing, obviously.
But yeah, you're right.
You're right, but it'sremarkable We've we've managed
to stay pretty safe in turbulenttimes since then.
All right, well, thanks Johnny.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
All right, we'll see you later next, next time, guys.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Thank you yeah.
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