January 28, 2025 • 13 mins
"Strive for mediocrity" probably isn't the advice you want your company's mentors giving to new hires.
But without a proper understanding of mentorship, your mentors may—wittingly or unwittingly—be setting future talent up for years of apathy and mediocrity.
So, take a moment during the final few days of National Mentoring Month to check out this mentor-inspired episode of The Energy Detox, which covers:
1 - The key distinctions between mentoring, advising, and coaching;
2 - Why consciously choosing to wear your mentor, advisor, or coach hat matters; and
3 - How quantifying the value of "squishy" things like mentorship and in-person work can create measurable advantages for you and your organization.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So 20 years ago, during my firsthitch offshore in what used to
be called the Gulf of Mexico, Iasked my mentor for career
advice, and he told me, "Joe,strive for mediocrity."
Strive for mediocrity. That wasit. That was the advice. He
could have told me anything Iwas an impressionable young
field engineer, looking for sometips and tricks, some some
(00:23):
advice that's going to launch meinto this long, solid career,
and he tells me to strive formediocrity. Now, where was he
going with that? Well, as youmay have guessed, he's basically
trying to say, Look, you want tofly under the radar. You don't
want to draw attention toyourself, either positively or
negatively. And if you can dothat well, you'll have success,
you'll be comfortable, you'll behappy, and you know, that's what
(00:45):
you want to do, Joe. And while Ididn't exactly take that advice
over the last 20 years, I willadmit that anytime I hear mentor
or mentorship, I immediatelythink of that anecdote, and
quite often share that anecdote.
And since I don't think I'veshared that yet here on the
energy detox and given the factthat we are in the tail end of
National Mentoring Month here inJanuary, I thought it'd be good
(01:09):
opportunity not just to sharethe anecdote, but to also take a
moment to distinguish betweenmentorship, advising and
coaching, because all three ofthose things are undoubtedly an
element of being a good leader.
However, there's also plenty ofdistinctions, and if you as a
(01:30):
leader are not aware of thosetimes when you're wearing a
mentorship hat versus anadvising hat versus a coaching
hat, well, you could be settingyourself up and the people that
you're advising or mentoring orleading or coaching or managing
or whatever, setting them up foreither disappointment or, quite
frankly, failure. So that beingsaid, that is the number one
(01:52):
goal today.
Well also, if there's time atthe end tie in the fact that I'm
standing in front ofPittsburgh's federal building
now, again, that is not a slightor a knock at all, and
suggesting that anyone hereworking for the federal
government is mediocre. There isa more sound, topical, timely
reason for that, but we'll sharethat for the end. But first
again, what are thosedistinctions? Well, first
(02:15):
mentorship, what is a mentor?
Again, you probably have yourown definition of what a mentor
is, and at least for me, I wouldsay, by and large a mentor is
somebody who is using his or heractual experiences to share with
somebody else, saying, Look,I've been here, I've done this,
and, you know, this is how Iproceeded. Or perhaps, hey,
look, I didn't do this, and Iregret doing this. And, you
know, take that information forwhat it's worth. That by and
(02:38):
large is what a mentor is. Now,again, we're not going to get
into semantics here, becausethat's not the only definition,
but that's a pretty gooddistinction between advising and
coaching. We'll talk about whythat is here in a moment. But
first, I also want to talk aboutwhy mentoring also can have a
more sort of transactional role,and that is in companies like
(03:01):
again, when I was assigned amentor early on, say, look, hey,
here is somebody in a mentor whounderstands policies, procedures
and how the company operates,what's expected of you. And
again, that's another goodopportunity for a mentor to
share those things and perhapseven be an advocate or
representative of the company.
Now, in the case of me again, mymentor quit the company actually
(03:23):
two weeks after he gave me thatsound advice. So maybe he wasn't
the best person to be there,guiding me and mentoring me, but
nevertheless, that's anothersort of fundamental functional
role of a mentor, distinct froman advisor.
So what is an advisor? Well,again, if we want to try to try
to force in some distinctdefinitions, and we do, because
I said, that's one of the goalstoday. Well, it's an advisor
(03:46):
coming in and saying, Look, Ihave expertise in this area.
Forget about my own personalexperience. I've studied this. I
understand this deeply. And I'mgoing to tell you what I think
you might want to do if you wantto have success, if you want to
be more profitable, whatever thecase might be. Now, again, it
doesn't necessarily mean theadvisor has lived that
(04:07):
experience, but it also meansthat the advisor is coming in
and almost has the pressure totell you what he or she thinks.
And there's a time and a placefor that. There's a time and a
place for expertise. There's atime and place for somebody to
say, look, Joe, this is what youshould do. You have this
problem, and I think you shoulddo this. I'm not sure if it's
(04:28):
gonna work from firsthandexperience, but again, I'm an
expert. I understand thisdeeply, and hey, maybe you're
gonna pay me a couple dollars totell me what to do. That's the
role. I'm an advisor. And again,in all sort of circumstances,
not just third party advisors toclients, but internally, there
are times when leaders need towear that hat and say, Look,
(04:49):
this is what you should do. Iknow this. I understand this
better than you, and here's whatyou should do that is very
distinct from a coach.
And I say this, of course. As acoach, where a coach is coming
in and doesn't necessarily haveexpertise, doesn't necessarily
have the experience that amentor would, but a coach is
coming in with a skill andasking questions and saying,
(05:12):
Look, I am here to help youunlock your potential. I'm going
to assume that you may actuallybe an expert in what you do. I'm
going to assume that you havehad these experiences and you
just need somebody to helpunlock those experiences, unlock
those answers, get out of yourown way, remove those hurts,
remove those roadblocks. That'swhat a coach does. And again, in
a corporate environment, there'sa time and a place to be that
(05:34):
coach. You're looking to giveownership to your people. You're
looking to demonstrate that youtrust their opinions and their
ability to think and to againchoose Path A over path B. Well,
telling them path A or tellingthem path B is obviously not the
way to do that. The way to dothat is to ask questions. Help
(05:55):
them say, hey, what have youdone before? Where are you
leaning? What resources have youtapped into already. I might be
there and you know what, I mighthave the right answer. I might
be able to put on that advisorhat and tell you basically what
you should do. But when it comesto growth and development,
there's a time and a place toput on your coaching hat instead
slow things down and say, Youknow what, I'm going to help
(06:16):
this person unlock the answer.
Now, again, that was a veryoversimplified distinction
between those three things. Ifyou're looking for more
information, there's plenty ofbooks and plenty of people who
have articulated thosedistinctions much better than I,
including Michael Stanier. Hewrote two books on the topic,
actually, the first of which isthe Coaching Habit, where,
again, he really lays out thatdistinction between coaching and
advising.
(06:38):
But again, here, as we stand, acouple days remaining in
mentorship month. It's alsoimportant that there's a time
and a place to simply be amentor, not be there to try to
solve these grand problems, notbe there to make the other
person kind of hunt for answersand grow and develop again.
There's a time and a place forthat, but perhaps to say, look,
(07:00):
here's an example of what I'vedone. Follow me or not, but
here's the example. So with thatbeing said, Why am I harping on
this? Why do we spend fiveminutes diving into this? Well,
it's because far too manyleaders find themselves in a
position where they feel forcedto be an advisor. Far too many
leaders put too much stock inbeing a mentor and feeling like
(07:22):
they need to constantly set anexample, whereas more leaders,
if they put on their coachinghat more often, can find
themselves in a position wherethey're not as stressed. They
don't feel the same pressure.
And again, it's an opportunityto help unlock the potential of
their people. Now that beingsaid, one more caveat here,
before we start winding thingsdown, you can go overboard on
(07:45):
the coaching. And perhaps thebest example of that is the you
know, an opportunity. Ifsomebody comes to you and says,
Hey, you know, I need to use thebathroom, can you tell me where
the bathroom is? And a purecoach would say, Well, the last
time you needed to use abathroom, where did you find
one? We're on a scale of one to10, you know, how badly do you
need to use the restroom?
(08:08):
Clearly, there's a time and aplace to take off your coaching
hat and put on your advisinghat, put on your mentorship hat,
and say, look the bathrooms downthe hall. Go ahead, you know,
hang a left and two doors down,you'll find what you need and
move on with life. But again, ifyou're not aware of the times
when you need to put on theright hat, you're not going to
have long term sustainablesuccess, and that's the message
(08:31):
today. So be aware when you gointo meetings, when you go into
conversations, ask yourselfwhich hat is appropriate. And
even in the middle of aconversation, ask your hat which
wearing, and again, you knowwhether you should take that off
and don a different hat. Thatbeing said, Why am I here in
front of the federal building inPittsburgh, and what does that
have to do with mentorship?
Well, one of the questions whenit comes to mentorship, or
(08:55):
really any of those sort offluffy, difficult to quantify
things in business, is, well,what is the value? What is the
value of having a great mentor?
And certainly, you know, inbusiness, you can read all kinds
of biographies of HighlySuccessful People who will tout
having great men mentors. Andhow, you know, billionaires who
(09:18):
give much of their credit tomentors. Now, does that mean
that was a billion dollarmentor, perhaps. But in more
practical terms, how do youquantify the value of things
like mentorship? That might be alittle squishy, that might have
long term paybacks, if you will.
Well the first answer, orperhaps related anecdote comes
(09:40):
to us from the building that'shidden behind me at the moment
by this bus, and that is thefederal building.
And why? Well, because one ofthe first executive orders that
President Trump signed was tosend federal workers back to the
office the old RTO return tooffice. Yeah. And, you know,
(10:01):
with that executive order,obviously plenty of conversation
ensued regarding, you know,whether it makes sense or not,
how much value is really lockedup in sending large swaths of
federal workers back to theoffice and reducing the amount
of time that they're spendingworking from home. And you know,
my goal today is not to weigh inon that debate, but to use that
(10:23):
as another example of whencompanies or federal
governments, in this case, whenthey miss opportunities to
quantify squishy things likeworking in the office. Because
many companies, rightly so, andmany individuals are very quick
to point out the quantifiablebenefits of working from home.
Many companies, manyindividuals, are very quick to
(10:43):
say how much they save oncommuting, like all these busses
here behind me, or toll ordriving or gas money. Many
people will be quick to pointout how much less money they
have to spend on things likeclothing, right? So they're not
going to the office as muchwell, you know, they don't have
to spend as much on those cans.
Maybe they still need tops, butmaybe they don't need much dry
cleaning, because doesn't matterwhether they sink or not.
(11:04):
Anyway, we don't have to go downall that path the world of
storage. You can add thosethings up, right? But when it
comes to the other direction,quantifying the value of being
in the office, that's where alot of companies that I work
with fall short. Quite frankly,that's where a lot of companies
ignore. Maybe it's my advice inthis case, and not coaching, but
my advice to say,Well, why not quantify the
benefits of being in the office?
(11:27):
If that's important to you,quantify the impact of having an
in person mentor. Quantify thebenefits of being in person in
offices, being able to learn howto read body language,
especially early on in a career.
Get to the point where you say,hey, look, if you come and work
for us in the first five yearsof your career, working for us
in our culture and ourenvironment, versus working
somebody somewhere else, whereyou're only working remotely, or
(11:49):
mostly working remotely, webelieve that your earnings over
the next 2030, years of Yourcareer will be pick a number,
seven figures, maybe millions ofdollars more by working in
person, in the office with us,because of our mentorship,
because of our attention todetail, because of all those
things that you're not going toget elsewhere. You can quantify
(12:11):
those things. It would bedifficult, don't get me wrong.
Might be difficult to support,might not fit nicely in an Excel
model, but I will tell you thatcompanies and individuals and
teams who can quantify theupside of their work
environment, well, they have aleg up, because, again, they're
competing against people whoare, you know, have no problem
quantifying the other direction.
(12:34):
So think about that. Think aboutthat. If you're a leader in the
federal government, if you feellike you know that you run the
risk of losing some talentbecause of this executive order?
Are you taking the time toactually try to quantify the
benefits, not just the benefitsof again, in general, working
for the federal government,which many people are quick to
do, and again, tout the longterm benefits of stability and
(12:57):
the long term benefits ofbenefits and things of that
nature. Take it a step further.
If there's truly value inworking in person, put a number
to it.
So that being said, wrapping upthis episode again, as always, I
hope that you found value, evenif it's difficult to quantify.
In checking out this latestepisode of the energy detox, as
(13:19):
always, if you have suggestionson how to increase the value of
these podcasts by all means,please let me know. And with
that, as always, I hope you havea great rest of the day and a
great rest of National MentoringMonth.
So 20 years ago, during my firsthitch offshore in what used to
be called the Gulf of Mexico, Iasked my mentor for career
advice, and he told me, "Joe,strive for mediocrity."
Strive for mediocrity. That wasit. That was the advice. He
could have told me anything Iwas an impressionable young
field engineer, looking for sometips and tricks, some some
(00:23):
advice that's going to launch meinto this long, solid career,
and he tells me to strive formediocrity. Now, where was he
going with that? Well, as youmay have guessed, he's basically
trying to say, Look, you want tofly under the radar. You don't
want to draw attention toyourself, either positively or
negatively. And if you can dothat well, you'll have success,
you'll be comfortable, you'll behappy, and you know, that's what
(00:45):
you want to do, Joe. And while Ididn't exactly take that advice
over the last 20 years, I willadmit that anytime I hear mentor
or mentorship, I immediatelythink of that anecdote, and
quite often share that anecdote.
And since I don't think I'veshared that yet here on the
energy detox and given the factthat we are in the tail end of
National Mentoring Month here inJanuary, I thought it'd be good
(01:09):
opportunity not just to sharethe anecdote, but to also take a
moment to distinguish betweenmentorship, advising and
coaching, because all three ofthose things are undoubtedly an
element of being a good leader.
However, there's also plenty ofdistinctions, and if you as a
(01:30):
leader are not aware of thosetimes when you're wearing a
mentorship hat versus anadvising hat versus a coaching
hat, well, you could be settingyourself up and the people that
you're advising or mentoring orleading or coaching or managing
or whatever, setting them up foreither disappointment or, quite
frankly, failure. So that beingsaid, that is the number one
(01:52):
goal today.
Well also, if there's time atthe end tie in the fact that I'm
standing in front ofPittsburgh's federal building
now, again, that is not a slightor a knock at all, and
suggesting that anyone hereworking for the federal
government is mediocre. There isa more sound, topical, timely
reason for that, but we'll sharethat for the end. But first
again, what are thosedistinctions? Well, first
(02:15):
mentorship, what is a mentor?
Again, you probably have yourown definition of what a mentor
is, and at least for me, I wouldsay, by and large a mentor is
somebody who is using his or heractual experiences to share with
somebody else, saying, Look,I've been here, I've done this,
and, you know, this is how Iproceeded. Or perhaps, hey,
look, I didn't do this, and Iregret doing this. And, you
know, take that information forwhat it's worth. That by and
(02:38):
large is what a mentor is. Now,again, we're not going to get
into semantics here, becausethat's not the only definition,
but that's a pretty gooddistinction between advising and
coaching. We'll talk about whythat is here in a moment. But
first, I also want to talk aboutwhy mentoring also can have a
more sort of transactional role,and that is in companies like
(03:01):
again, when I was assigned amentor early on, say, look, hey,
here is somebody in a mentor whounderstands policies, procedures
and how the company operates,what's expected of you. And
again, that's another goodopportunity for a mentor to
share those things and perhapseven be an advocate or
representative of the company.
Now, in the case of me again, mymentor quit the company actually
(03:23):
two weeks after he gave me thatsound advice. So maybe he wasn't
the best person to be there,guiding me and mentoring me, but
nevertheless, that's anothersort of fundamental functional
role of a mentor, distinct froman advisor.
So what is an advisor? Well,again, if we want to try to try
to force in some distinctdefinitions, and we do, because
I said, that's one of the goalstoday. Well, it's an advisor
(03:46):
coming in and saying, Look, Ihave expertise in this area.
Forget about my own personalexperience. I've studied this. I
understand this deeply. And I'mgoing to tell you what I think
you might want to do if you wantto have success, if you want to
be more profitable, whatever thecase might be. Now, again, it
doesn't necessarily mean theadvisor has lived that
(04:07):
experience, but it also meansthat the advisor is coming in
and almost has the pressure totell you what he or she thinks.
And there's a time and a placefor that. There's a time and a
place for expertise. There's atime and place for somebody to
say, look, Joe, this is what youshould do. You have this
problem, and I think you shoulddo this. I'm not sure if it's
(04:28):
gonna work from firsthandexperience, but again, I'm an
expert. I understand thisdeeply, and hey, maybe you're
gonna pay me a couple dollars totell me what to do. That's the
role. I'm an advisor. And again,in all sort of circumstances,
not just third party advisors toclients, but internally, there
are times when leaders need towear that hat and say, Look,
(04:49):
this is what you should do. Iknow this. I understand this
better than you, and here's whatyou should do that is very
distinct from a coach.
And I say this, of course. As acoach, where a coach is coming
in and doesn't necessarily haveexpertise, doesn't necessarily
have the experience that amentor would, but a coach is
coming in with a skill andasking questions and saying,
(05:12):
Look, I am here to help youunlock your potential. I'm going
to assume that you may actuallybe an expert in what you do. I'm
going to assume that you havehad these experiences and you
just need somebody to helpunlock those experiences, unlock
those answers, get out of yourown way, remove those hurts,
remove those roadblocks. That'swhat a coach does. And again, in
a corporate environment, there'sa time and a place to be that
(05:34):
coach. You're looking to giveownership to your people. You're
looking to demonstrate that youtrust their opinions and their
ability to think and to againchoose Path A over path B. Well,
telling them path A or tellingthem path B is obviously not the
way to do that. The way to dothat is to ask questions. Help
(05:55):
them say, hey, what have youdone before? Where are you
leaning? What resources have youtapped into already. I might be
there and you know what, I mighthave the right answer. I might
be able to put on that advisorhat and tell you basically what
you should do. But when it comesto growth and development,
there's a time and a place toput on your coaching hat instead
slow things down and say, Youknow what, I'm going to help
(06:16):
this person unlock the answer.
Now, again, that was a veryoversimplified distinction
between those three things. Ifyou're looking for more
information, there's plenty ofbooks and plenty of people who
have articulated thosedistinctions much better than I,
including Michael Stanier. Hewrote two books on the topic,
actually, the first of which isthe Coaching Habit, where,
again, he really lays out thatdistinction between coaching and
advising.
(06:38):
But again, here, as we stand, acouple days remaining in
mentorship month. It's alsoimportant that there's a time
and a place to simply be amentor, not be there to try to
solve these grand problems, notbe there to make the other
person kind of hunt for answersand grow and develop again.
There's a time and a place forthat, but perhaps to say, look,
(07:00):
here's an example of what I'vedone. Follow me or not, but
here's the example. So with thatbeing said, Why am I harping on
this? Why do we spend fiveminutes diving into this? Well,
it's because far too manyleaders find themselves in a
position where they feel forcedto be an advisor. Far too many
leaders put too much stock inbeing a mentor and feeling like
(07:22):
they need to constantly set anexample, whereas more leaders,
if they put on their coachinghat more often, can find
themselves in a position wherethey're not as stressed. They
don't feel the same pressure.
And again, it's an opportunityto help unlock the potential of
their people. Now that beingsaid, one more caveat here,
before we start winding thingsdown, you can go overboard on
(07:45):
the coaching. And perhaps thebest example of that is the you
know, an opportunity. Ifsomebody comes to you and says,
Hey, you know, I need to use thebathroom, can you tell me where
the bathroom is? And a purecoach would say, Well, the last
time you needed to use abathroom, where did you find
one? We're on a scale of one to10, you know, how badly do you
need to use the restroom?
(08:08):
Clearly, there's a time and aplace to take off your coaching
hat and put on your advisinghat, put on your mentorship hat,
and say, look the bathrooms downthe hall. Go ahead, you know,
hang a left and two doors down,you'll find what you need and
move on with life. But again, ifyou're not aware of the times
when you need to put on theright hat, you're not going to
have long term sustainablesuccess, and that's the message
(08:31):
today. So be aware when you gointo meetings, when you go into
conversations, ask yourselfwhich hat is appropriate. And
even in the middle of aconversation, ask your hat which
wearing, and again, you knowwhether you should take that off
and don a different hat. Thatbeing said, Why am I here in
front of the federal building inPittsburgh, and what does that
have to do with mentorship?
Well, one of the questions whenit comes to mentorship, or
(08:55):
really any of those sort offluffy, difficult to quantify
things in business, is, well,what is the value? What is the
value of having a great mentor?
And certainly, you know, inbusiness, you can read all kinds
of biographies of HighlySuccessful People who will tout
having great men mentors. Andhow, you know, billionaires who
(09:18):
give much of their credit tomentors. Now, does that mean
that was a billion dollarmentor, perhaps. But in more
practical terms, how do youquantify the value of things
like mentorship? That might be alittle squishy, that might have
long term paybacks, if you will.
Well the first answer, orperhaps related anecdote comes
(09:40):
to us from the building that'shidden behind me at the moment
by this bus, and that is thefederal building.
And why? Well, because one ofthe first executive orders that
President Trump signed was tosend federal workers back to the
office the old RTO return tooffice. Yeah. And, you know,
(10:01):
with that executive order,obviously plenty of conversation
ensued regarding, you know,whether it makes sense or not,
how much value is really lockedup in sending large swaths of
federal workers back to theoffice and reducing the amount
of time that they're spendingworking from home. And you know,
my goal today is not to weigh inon that debate, but to use that
(10:23):
as another example of whencompanies or federal
governments, in this case, whenthey miss opportunities to
quantify squishy things likeworking in the office. Because
many companies, rightly so, andmany individuals are very quick
to point out the quantifiablebenefits of working from home.
Many companies, manyindividuals, are very quick to
(10:43):
say how much they save oncommuting, like all these busses
here behind me, or toll ordriving or gas money. Many
people will be quick to pointout how much less money they
have to spend on things likeclothing, right? So they're not
going to the office as muchwell, you know, they don't have
to spend as much on those cans.
Maybe they still need tops, butmaybe they don't need much dry
cleaning, because doesn't matterwhether they sink or not.
(11:04):
Anyway, we don't have to go downall that path the world of
storage. You can add thosethings up, right? But when it
comes to the other direction,quantifying the value of being
in the office, that's where alot of companies that I work
with fall short. Quite frankly,that's where a lot of companies
ignore. Maybe it's my advice inthis case, and not coaching, but
my advice to say,Well, why not quantify the
benefits of being in the office?
(11:27):
If that's important to you,quantify the impact of having an
in person mentor. Quantify thebenefits of being in person in
offices, being able to learn howto read body language,
especially early on in a career.
Get to the point where you say,hey, look, if you come and work
for us in the first five yearsof your career, working for us
in our culture and ourenvironment, versus working
somebody somewhere else, whereyou're only working remotely, or
(11:49):
mostly working remotely, webelieve that your earnings over
the next 2030, years of Yourcareer will be pick a number,
seven figures, maybe millions ofdollars more by working in
person, in the office with us,because of our mentorship,
because of our attention todetail, because of all those
things that you're not going toget elsewhere. You can quantify
(12:11):
those things. It would bedifficult, don't get me wrong.
Might be difficult to support,might not fit nicely in an Excel
model, but I will tell you thatcompanies and individuals and
teams who can quantify theupside of their work
environment, well, they have aleg up, because, again, they're
competing against people whoare, you know, have no problem
quantifying the other direction.
(12:34):
So think about that. Think aboutthat. If you're a leader in the
federal government, if you feellike you know that you run the
risk of losing some talentbecause of this executive order?
Are you taking the time toactually try to quantify the
benefits, not just the benefitsof again, in general, working
for the federal government,which many people are quick to
do, and again, tout the longterm benefits of stability and
(12:57):
the long term benefits ofbenefits and things of that
nature. Take it a step further.
If there's truly value inworking in person, put a number
to it.
So that being said, wrapping upthis episode again, as always, I
hope that you found value, evenif it's difficult to quantify.
In checking out this latestepisode of the energy detox, as
(13:19):
always, if you have suggestionson how to increase the value of
these podcasts by all means,please let me know. And with
that, as always, I hope you havea great rest of the day and a
great rest of National MentoringMonth.
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