The Creator Middle Class Does Not Exist

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Thank you, hello and welcome.

(00:33):
My name is Tom.
This is the Enthusiasm Project,season 12, episode 8.
Ain't it great.
And it's a date, because todayI have my super special guest,
my lovely wife Heather I amlovely wife Heather.
That's true, and we are going tokind of expand on something
that we've been talking about abit on the couples table for the

(00:56):
past couple weeks.
So if you've been listening tothat, we're going to try to do a
recap-ish bit without goinginto all the excruciating detail
that we've already gone into.
So if you've already heard it,there shouldn't be much overlap.
But if you don't know whatwe're talking about, we want to
give you enough context as well.
So that's kind of what we'redoing today, all right.

(01:16):
Before that, though, a couplethings.
First got to talk about gear.
So today I'm using back on theRodecaster Pro 2, which I
haven't used for a podcast in awhile because I changed my whole
setup but the Rodecaster I wasusing for a video that I was
working on at my standingsitting rolling table, and so I
am using the Shure SM7B and theRodecaster Pro 2 on my SM7B

(01:40):
preset, and Heather is using theShure SM58 on the sm7b preset
as well.
Yes, are you struggling withyour headphones?

Speaker 2 (01:51):
I try to adjust them, but because they're too low on
my ears.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
But you tape them oh, those are my original ones and
I broke part of oh, you canadjust one side, just not the
other.
Um, but yeah, so he, heather'susing the 58.
And the reason I wanted to dothat and put them both on the
same preset is because theyshould be quite similar.
So the SM7B $400 mic, the 58,$100 mic, they have very similar

(02:16):
capsules and with the same EQ,they should actually sound
pretty similar.
All right, so there's that.
Before we jump into this, I dohave a voice message from Gil,
who I want to share, and I'mglad that Heather is here for
this specific one.
So, if I can do this correctlyfor once, take it away, gil.
The podcast you and Heatherwill be live.

(02:40):
This wasn't my fault, though.
I'm using speak pipe and I hadthe slider dragged all the way
to the left and for some reason,when I hit play it just went to
the middle.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Okay, anyway, let's restart that take it away gil,
so I rushed back home to get myheadphones okay okay, I've done
this plenty of times okay, thatwasn't me, that that was.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
You saw, I dragged, okay, so this is a speed pipe
situation.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
I think it's going to continue.
I refreshed the page, oh, okay.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Okay, so let's see here one more time.
I could edit this out, but I'mnot going to.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
Hey Tom, this is Gil.
I hope all is well.
So it's almost time for thecouples table to air and I'm
going to be filming or producinga podcast for a client and I'm
making sure I grab everythingthat I need, but around the time
that we're going to beproducing the podcast well, I'll

(03:33):
be producing the podcast youand Heather will be live.
So I rushed back home to get myheadphones, because I've done
this plenty of times where alive stream or a podcast or a
friend of mine is on YouTube andI just put an ear pod in tune
into y'all or whatever the caseis, and I thought that was super
funny.
How it's like, wow, I quiteliterally had y'all a part of my

(03:54):
routine and I just thought itwas really funny, really cool to
share.
I really appreciate y'all.
Live stream your podcast.
Keep up the great work.
Just wanted to share that.
Alrighty, thank shit.
Y'all.
Live stream your podcast.
Keep up the great work.
Just wanted to share that allrighty.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Thank you, gil, that was so nice perfect timing I
also think it's funny.
If you're like monitoring apodcast that's being produced
and then naturally we sayhilarious things.
You start laughing whilethey're talking about something
really serious.
Hopefully we didn't mess you upthere that's funny uh, but that
that, uh, thank you for that,though.
That's really nice.
Yeah, gil's always very goodabout sitting in fun stuff like

(04:29):
that, speaking of fun stuffSpeaking of fun stuff, Tom.
Now we can go into the topic oftoday's show, which is sort of
about the creator middle class.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
And the creator economy.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
And the lack thereof.
Yeah, so where do we want tobegin?

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Okay, so I think so.
Okay.
What is the creator economy?
Let's start there.
The creator economy is theeconomy and business around
content creation.
That's everything from techstartups to, obviously, the
platforms that we create contenton, to content creators, to
viewers and how you know,consumer behavior has changed.

(05:07):
It's all the things.
It's all the things.
And at nab nab show a coupleweeks ago.
We went well.
It was my request to go to onesession out of the entire
schedule and there was plenty ofsessions, but the only one I
wanted to go to was one calledthe state of the creator economy
, and the reason why is becausewhenever there's a talk about,

(05:29):
like, the state of the spacethat we work in, that's the
thing that I'm most interestedin, because I don't really care.
I mean, it's not that I don'tcare.
I know there's a lot of thingsthat we can, I can learn in
terms of workflow and you knowyoutube trends and new gear and
all these things, but to me,like I really like talking, the

(05:51):
thing that really interests meis the big picture stuff.
It always has ever since.
I mean, that's a huge reasonwhy I even got into this in the
first place.
I found it fascinating To Idon't know to talk about what we
like.
How the talk was, it was bad, itwas just I don't know.
I feel I don't want to putanyone on blast.

(06:12):
I've been having conflictingfeelings about this.
I made a video on my channelHeather just create, if you want
to go check it out where Isummarize like in detail talk
about, uh, what was discussed atthat talk, but basically, um, I
felt like the creator, middleclass or whatever you want to

(06:32):
call it.
There's, there's someone who'sa total beginner, there's
everyone in the middle and thenthere's like mr beast.
I know mr beast is likeliterally number one mega
creators, yeah but the yeah,exactly.
They have teams, they havestudios, they spend six figures
on one freaking video.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Or more.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, we don't make that in a year, man, like geez,
you know, and I just felt likethe talk was so centered around
that and it was discouraging,especially at NAB, because Tom
and I were having like such agenuine fun time and you know,
it was a time for us to reflecton our YouTube journey.
It was a chance for us,especially for Tom's channel, to

(07:15):
see the impact of his channelin real life, like to meet the
viewers who have, who have likebeen inspired and learned
something from your channel, whohave been inspired and learned
something from your channel, tomeet the brands and businesses
that partner with you, and allthis.
And then we go to this talk andit's just like, oh, this

(07:36):
creator middle class is justgoing to fade away, or just a
passing phase which, now thatit's been some time since the
talk, I'm like maybe it is likea traditional media agenda where
they think that the middle isjust going to fade away because
the TV show channels are themain reason why people go to
YouTube.

(07:56):
I don't know, I've had a lot ofmy thoughts, have evolved a lot
since then, but what was yourtake about the talk?

Speaker 1 (08:04):
So the thing to be clear, because I know how you
feel when it's like oh, I don'twant to say anything negative
about something somebody did andI feel bad about that.
I think you and I at this point, if someone's listening to this
podcast and isn't a couple theyknow that we don't speak
critically.
You know we don't thumbs down avideo or leave a negative
comment.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, exactly, I don't even write reviews on yelp
because I just like if I don'tlike something, I just won't go
there again, or I don't watchthe video again, or I don't
subscribe to the channel.
I don't need them, I don't needto make a statement about it.
But for this, though, it wasjust I.
I yeah, it was bad it was bad.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
I left in the middle of it.
I never would do that umnormally, but I just like I.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
And we've talked to other creators that were there
and they had they used the worddisheartening, yeah.
They've had.
They had a similar impression,so it wasn't just.
It wasn't just us.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
And the thing about it like okay One, the
description of the talk.
Like the talk didn't live up tothe description, which I'm
pretty sure, at this point wasjust an AI generated description
, but it didn't live up to thatOkay.
It's not only that.
It even if it were a talk, thatwas maybe okay.
The description made it soundlike it's geared towards

(09:15):
creators, maybe at our level, oreven like at a smaller level,
but instead the talk was gearedtowards mega creators.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
But instead the talk was geared towards mega creators
.
Even in that case, it was sopoorly structured and
contextualized and like therewas no tom.
This is our craft, like that.
We care so much about this.
I mean it, it is our life, likewe.
We don't stop talking about it.
And yeah, we're lucky becausewe've we've managed to turn the
thing that we're passionateabout into a job.
So it's, you know right thatcould be a dangerous thing, but
but we, it's the thing, it'salso the thing that we do to

(10:06):
have fun.
So you know, on date nights, weare talking about this, um, so
yeah it.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Just the thing that I was upset about was that it was
so minimizing to the thing thatwe do yeah, it was, you know,
because it goes beyond even justbeing a bad talk, which like,
okay, fine, I can get over that.
But I felt bad about what I do.
I felt stupid about what.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
I do yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
You felt I don't know you were angry.
The other people we were withalso felt bad.
Like we said, somebody else wedidn't see at the time but later
said the word disheartening.
That's pretty bad.
Like those are not good results.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
And it sucks because it's like the whole nab
experience was like oh my god,look at the space that we're
part of the opposite of that.
Yeah, like, what we do matters,you know it, it's impactful.
I was inspired, I was like I, Iwas just, it was, it was just
whiplash you know, like wait, sowe're passing phase, but then I
go, I walk the floor and it's atotally different experience

(11:06):
and it just doesn't match.
And I think the thing that Iwas kind of scared about was,
like the people who were on thatpanel are are, you know, the
thought leaders and thefigureheads of the creator
economy, like people listen tothem and then for them to say,
okay, this middle, this middleclass is just a passing phase,

(11:28):
just I just don't think that'sfair.
And then to not explain, youknow yeah, it's a very um
minimizing.
Yeah, it upset me and it didn'tgo.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
It didn't go in line, like you said, with anything
that we saw or experienced orthe other people we talked to
throughout the whole thing.
So not not to spend the wholeepisode just talking about this
talk, but the talk was thecatalyst for sort of recognizing
well, we got back to the hotelroom and I.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
I tried to ask tom like why, why was my heart rate
going up?

Speaker 3 (12:00):
like why did I?

Speaker 2 (12:00):
start sweating.
Why was I actually like on aphysical level, having a
reaction to this?
It was just a weird I don't.
I'm normally not like that, youknow, and I find a lot of
things interesting.
Like you could talk aboutPokemon cards and if you're into
it, I'll you know like I willlisten to it if you're into it.
But this was just like I don'tknow.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Not only only did it make sense, I felt like they
weren't even really I mean, Ifelt I in a way I felt bad for
the people on the panel, becausethere were what four, four
people on the panel, um, Idefinitely felt like two and a
half of them maybe weren'tappropriate to be there, um,
whereas the other ones were, buteither way, it almost felt like

(12:44):
they.
I don't even know if they knewwhat the talk was.
It's almost like they wereinvited to be on a panel.
They're on a panel and they'resort of just reacting to but see
like to me that, yes, that isfair.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
But also, to me, the state of the creator economy at
nab is different than just let'sme and you talk about the state
of the creator economy.
The people who are watchingthis show, who are at this
conference, who are at thistrade show watching the state of
the creator economy, are partof you know, like they have a

(13:15):
lot of reach and impact andpower to make decisions that
influence.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
It was definitely that we work in it was
definitely a strange thingbecause it was NAB's first year
really pushing creators to beincluded.
Where this talk took place wasin like the creator theater or
something.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
It was sort of like this upstairs thing.
Creator lab, where it's like awhole thing geared towards as a
whole floor dedicated to thecreator economy.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, with like a lounge and maybe some more
creator-specific booths andthings.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
And so it's like okay , we're taking this group that
has traditionally beenmarginalized and not taken
seriously, we're now bringingthem into the fold with
traditional media and the biggerbroadcast industries, but we're
just going to continue tominimize.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
It was like Well, I don't know, I believe it's
because they just don't know I,I, I believe it's because they,
they just don't know that we'rehere right because so that's why
it didn't feel malicious, itjust yeah, it's just ignorant
yeah, exactly because.
Because you know, if I were nab,why wouldn't you start with the
content creators of your space?
They're creating content atyour trade show right there.

(14:24):
Like I can't, I can't believeyou wouldn't ask.
Why would you pull in the 21year old lifestyle vlogger who
went viral six months ago onyoutube?
Well talk about the state ofthe creator economy.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
It's just bizarre to me well, the the thing that they
were plugging then was like,okay, if you like this, come
back tomorrow, because if youwant to learn more about
creating, we have the ceo of mrbeast.
And I was like that'severything I need to know.
It's not even, although,although we obviously know mr
beast channel is not a guy, it's, it's a company.
It's many people three and ahalf million dollars on one

(14:58):
video it's not even a milliondollars on a video, the face of
the channel isn't there, theperson who started it, the c.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
The channel has a ceo , and that's I hate it because
people say, oh, learn from thebiggest creator on the platform.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
No, he's nothing to learn from that he's a company
he's an enterprise he's a it's.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
It's deceiving because it's like mr beast is
one person yeah, yes, he's theface of it, but there's a whole.
There's a whole large sizesizebusiness that makes that happen.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
I can learn a lot when I go on the Warner Brothers
backlot tour.
It's super fun and it's superinteresting and it's cool to see
things work at that scale.
But there's also like I can'tgo home and then do what they do
there.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, but it's still interesting.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
It's cool, it's not.
It's not it's cool, it'sinteresting.
And this is sort of the samething, except it's, in a way,
either being pretend they'repretending or they're being
pitched as.
Yeah, it's called the samething as what you and I do right
now.
We're gonna set up a road.
You want to start a youtubechannel.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
It's not too late.
Listen to the freakingpresident yo yeah of mr b.
It's like what, is it just like?
Okay, if you wanted to start abusiness, it would not be
appropriate for you to hear atalk from the ceo of google,
right, like it's just not.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
It would be interesting, but it would be
much more appropriate for you togo to your chamber of commerce
or talk to the guy who owns abakery on a corner or whatever
exactly like.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
So, anyway, we were at the hotel room and I and we
were trying to figure out likewhy, you know, why was I so
upset, why were we so upset?
And basically what we came upwith, like.
We started out with like whattopics would we have?
like, sure like if we were incharge of the state of the
creator economy.
How would we have done it?
Like if we were in charge ofthe state of the creator economy
, how would we have done itdifferently?
And then even the programming,what would we have done

(16:49):
differently?
But then we backpedaled andthought, well, why are these
topics important?
Because we are part of a groupof creators that are not being
represented and, I feel like,are just being ignored because
we don't know.
People don't know we're herebecause we're.
We're not big enough, you know,and we're not you said this

(17:11):
before the people who are juststarting out.
There's so many resources,there's so many youtube channels
, there's so many freakingthings to help you get your
channel, like to start a youtubechannel or to start creating
content or become an influenceror whatever but if you're
already going right and you'reat 10,000, 50,000, 100,000
subscribers, I don't, there'snot really.

(17:32):
It's just us texting each otherlike, yeah, that's the help we
get.
To use the business analogy,it's less of like you're not at
a Google phase or a giantcorporation phase that has a
legal team, an HR team, afreaking you're not at a Google
phase or a giant corporationphase that has a legal team, an
HR team, a freaking accountingteam.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
But you're also not at the kitchen table
brainstorming phase.
You're at the point where yourshop doors are open.
Customers are coming in.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
You're maintaining it every day and you're just doing
that, day in, day out.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
But you're just trying to figure it out and the
thing that we noticed,especially NAB, was so good for
this, because so much time, somuch of our time, is just you
and I talking, but nab, we gotto interact with so many other
people who are going through thesame thing and the thing that
that struck both of us, I think,was that, even though we all
got to a point where we have ashop with doors open, we all had

(18:20):
to reinvent the wheel to getthere instead of, you know,
maybe getting some other levelof support or understanding
along the way.
And that's where it's like youkind of realize this middle
section because, no, you know,nobody's going to be make it to
the mega creator phase, likeit's such a small group overall,

(18:41):
even though it brings in a lotof viewers and a lot of money to
the platform, and I understandwhy the platform's focused on
them and they're not doinganything wrong.
They shouldn't go away but thefact that they have the same
label that we have is weird is.
It's confusing and and turns outprobably a little bit harmful,
because now the whatever youwant, the small business size
creator who is just trying toget things going and reinventing

(19:05):
the wheel completely gets leftin the dust.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, and I think that's the thing that upset me
was that it kind of felt like wedidn't matter.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
You know, and it sucks.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
It just broke my heart because it's like we put
in so much work into this.
We care so much yeah, and it'snot even just us, it's everyone
we met.
Everyone is genuinelypassionate about this and
there's an interest there thatdrives.
You don't have to be here, youdon't have to do this, you don't

(19:40):
have to do any of this.
But the fact that you're doingthis and making an impact and
inspiring people all around theworld and then for it to just be
dismissed because we're not bigenough, that's the part that
like upset me, because, whatever, if you want to talk about mr
beast, yeah let's go.
I'm not saying don't yeah,that's not like I'll watch the
call and smear episode, whatever, but it it's the.
It's the part that like we'rejust a passing phase, you know

(20:04):
we're going to fade out, becauseeveryone's just everyone is
just going to watch the topchannels Like.
To me, that is genuineignorance, because it's not true
.
It's not true.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
And so many of the people that we spent a lot of
time with you know doing this astheir full-time or part-time,
potentially full-time thing.
You know it's a second, thirdcareer.
They're people who aren't 19years old necessarily, although
a couple of them were younger,but a lot of them were career
changers.
Career changers closer tomiddle age supporting families

(20:34):
like that's, that's very cool tobe able to build that start
that raising a family working afull-time job, doing this on the
side, like to me, that'sadmirable.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's commendable.
This is all stuff that I saidin my original video, so I
apologize but to have noresources for that, though, is
the well, not even resources.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
That's like wishful thinking I mean support like any
recognition, yeah we're here,you know, I'll just take that
acknowledgement of yourexistence.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, it's just frustrating, so,
uh, so here's what I did.
Uh, well, this is what we did,tom and I, because I I couldn't
stop thinking about it, and thenso I came up, I came up with a
thesis that was basically sayingthat the creators that we're

(21:21):
referring to have more in commonwith a small business like the
small mom pop pop shop down thestreet.
We have more in common withthat person than we do with mr
beast, because, if you just lookat it on a business level,
we're operating at differentbudgets, we have different goals
, we have different, you know,operations, and that's fine.

(21:42):
There's nothing.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
There's no better or worse, but it's just different
yeah, but honestly, if we wentto the mom pop shop down the
street and asked them about howthey run their business, I bet
we would learn more than goingto the talk yeah from the
president of mr beast who, likeyou know it's just you, you, you
spent three million, three anda half million dollars well, I

(22:06):
remember this was a couple yearsago when, like mr beast was
first popping up on my radar andthere was a video about like I
bought every car at a cardealership to give away or
something.
And it was, you know, one ofthose big, crazy giveaway videos
and people were, you know, likehe's so generous, he's so this.
And I remember thinking at thatpoint this was when there was a
little bit less transparencyabout the behind the scenes of

(22:27):
that channel I was like there'sno way, like I've bought a car
before you bought a car before.
It took me I don't know sixhours, seven hours, to sign the
papers on my rav4, my one rav4seven years ago.
If you're buying an entire, likethere's so much, so many

(22:47):
logistics and so much back endand so many legal things which
obviously did not do whichobviously did not do he's able
to hire the right people to dothat, to take care of that and
then move forward with the ideafrom there.
But right there it like.
Then you have people thinkinglike I should be able to, like,
orchestrate something big, Ishould be able to do something

(23:09):
like, and it's like no, you, you.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
You should not be comparing yourself to this thing
, because you are not the samewell, that, and like I feel like
a lot of creators, the onesthat we're thinking about, don't
like.
If you aspire to be absolutelyfamous, celebrity, big, awesome,
right, but like I don't no onewe know is on that track.
Yeah, like to me, the peoplethat we're talking about, the

(23:33):
thing that motivates them isthat they're genuinely excited
to create content about thething that they're passionate
about they want to share.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
They want to share a thing.
Being on camera almost becomesa necessity of it, because
that's the way you would betalking about it anyway yeah, I
need to share my knowledge,share my.
The way to do that is throughyoutube okay the way for me to
do that is you need to see andhear me, and so now I now I've
had to pick up the skill ofbeing an on-camera personality,
which is, you know, out ofnecessity and not the main goal,

(24:01):
which is why, at the talk, oneof the main people there who had
a former career in hollywood,was trying to say, like, oh, all
creators need to join sag andit's like this, which is a
screen actors guild, it's aunion that hollywood actors and
performers and stuff are in.
There are performers andentertainers on youtube who
function like typical tv andmovie stars and, I don't know,

(24:22):
maybe joining sag could beappropriate for them, but for
that's not, but not anybody.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
We know like no, it's not appropriate at all?

Speaker 1 (24:29):
we don't.
It's not.
It's not the answer for amillion reasons and also it's
not a thing like, oh, just gosign up, like sign in with
google account, like it doesn'twork that way yeah, exactly so,
basically like the thing.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
So my thesis was that there is a type of creator like
you and me and a lot of peoplethat we know, uh, and there's no
recognition, no representationand, of course, like, if we can
get to this point, that'd beawesome, but no, no support, no
resources, no advocacy.
I've.
All I want is a seat at thetable at this point, just so, if

(25:07):
you're gonna, if someone isgonna, do a talk about the state
of the creator economy, please,like, we matter and I think you
know you're.
Uh, I think you had the analogyof the patreon, but, like, if
you know, tom's channel is 144000 subscribers as of this
morning.
Congratulations hey uh, and yes,he is.
You can say he's easilyreplaceable.

(25:29):
If you stop creating content,there's somebody to fill his
place because there's so manychannels on youtube.
But if you take you, if youtake me, if you take all of
these creators that we'retalking about, who don't have
necessarily a millionsubscribers on their own, I'm
curious how much we would havecollectively right and not not
even just viewer count, but thenhow?

(25:52):
Economic impact.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
Right how exactly how much revenue are you driving to
the youtube platform?
How much revenue are youdriving to businesses and brands
and things, not even thatyou're making, but how much are
you?

Speaker 2 (26:05):
yeah, it's not even how much you're making, it's
like how much, how how much doesyour channel contribute to the,
to the economy in general andthat's something that we heard
from somebody over the pastcouple weeks.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
It's been so many of these conversations but where
they were saying that at thebeginning of the year, this year
, a bunch of big, long, big,longtime creators quit and
retired from YouTube, which is anatural part of this thing
going on for longer than youknow, a couple of years, and
that's actually a good thingbecause it shows that you can
have a full on career beginning,middle and end on the platform.

(26:38):
Mr peace is an example.
I he's youtube's darling rightnow because it's massive.
If he decided to quit or Idon't know, netflix offered like
a lucrative deal and went over,there would be effed that'd be.
That's a lot.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
That's a huge chunk of viewership and revenue be
very worrying for youtube right.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
So they're.
They're, despite how manycreators are and how many.
You know how varied it is.
There are a lot of eggs in acouple of these very big baskets
, and the person we were talkingto was saying that, especially
with sort of like the massexodus earlier this year,
youtube seems to be pivotingtowards boosting smaller
channels.
Like you and I, and pretty mucheveryone we've talked to, have

(27:21):
noticed that we've been gettingrecommendations for very small
channels.
On our you know channel has 200subscribers, a video has 10
views, like it's not just thetrending page on your homepage
and that's cool, like that'ssomething that people have been
wanting for a long time is smallcreators being able to also
have their voice heard inloudness.
And the analogy of Patreon thatI used was if you're somebody

(27:44):
who makes $5,000 a month viaPatreon, for example, but you
have one $5,000 patron or two$2,500 patrons and they leave,
You're effed, you're at zero.
Yes, if you have $5,001 patrons,there's a lot more room for
flexibility there.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
People can come in and out.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
People can naturally come and go as life happens and
things change and you're not,you're not, you know probably
people won't all leave at thesame time unless you do
something it would be weird, itwould be very weird, and so you
know it makes sense for youtubeto then also do that to, of
course.
Of course they're going to payattention to the massive studio

(28:23):
channels like of course, yeah,and that's fine.
They should like.
Those channels are veryimportant, but at the same time
it's nice that then okay, maybethese smaller channels are here.
But it sort of seems to be thisrandom shotgun blast approach.
We're still.
It's almost like the approachis okay, let's go find the
smallest channels and promotethose.
It's still the thing where theperson in the middle is just

(28:45):
kind of overlooked yeah, likeand that's, and that's the thing
too with youtube that I'vetalked about before.
If you are one of those megachannels mr beast is the easiest
example because he's thebiggest but even if you're at
the, you know he's at 260million or so.
It's a.
It's an absurd number.
But even if you're at, we'llsay, a modest 15 million, 10
million subscribers on YouTube,you have a little more access to

(29:09):
some support, you have a littlemore resources, you can do
things on the platform and withthe platform that other people
can't do, and you're probablyoperating at a different budget,
you know.
Chances are, at that point youaren't a one person crew
or-person crew, but everythingelse I mean and honestly I know
it's not.
You know this doesn't applyuniversally across the board,

(29:32):
but I would say, speakinggenerally, channels that have up
to a couple million, two tothree million subscriber base
which you can run as a singleperson, all the way down to the
person who clicked createaccount.
Today they're all just lumpedin the same pile and their needs
are so different, theirexperiences are so different and
when something goes wrong orthey need help with this thing

(29:53):
that's now their livelihoodthey've built up, there's
nothing.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah.
So I came up with a term calledsmall business creator.
And again, the reason why Icame up with that term was
because I thought that this typeof creator had more in common
with the small business creator.
And again, the reason why Icame up with that term was
because I thought that this typeof creator had more in common
with the small business mom popshop down the street, because we
are a small small business yeahum, I understand I've gotten
feedback that this is uhdifferent in different countries

(30:17):
, but at least here in americathere is a lot.
There is, I would say theaverage american um recognizes
and values shopping local, likethere's a a big push for
shopping locals, shop smallbusiness.
We have thanksgiving blackfriday and then small business
saturday.
Uh yes, amazon's taking overand all this.

(30:40):
But I do think that there is a,there's an importance of the
small business, the hardworkingAmerican man and woman who built
their business from scratch and, just you know, hung up the
shingle.
That's the American dream.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
The store, the restaurant that's been in the
town for years and years,exactly.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Right and I was like okay, I feel like that same
dedication, that same courageand bravery to be able to do
that.
We've done that.
It just happens that our thingis digital, it's content
creation, it's this thing.
That is very weird and looksdifferent to you know, it's very
diversified, but in terms oflike, have Tom and I started a

(31:22):
business that is successful?
Yes, like, totally, we've donethat.
And so I came up with the termsmall business creator and then
we were trying I was trying todifferentiate like what are the
criteria for this type ofcreator that is not being
recognized right now?
I've used different terms likecreator, middle class.
I did a whole thing about thepassion economy.

(31:43):
I don't think small businesscreator is going to catch, so
I'm thinking about changing it.
So, if you have any ideas, yeah,but my thing is that I want to
give a voice Right To this typeof creator, so that so, instead
of us being dispersed like,let's unite.

(32:05):
And I feel like just startingthere, just being able to start
the conversation.
Well, just being able to talkamongst ourselves, I feel like,
is more support than the justflying blind, because we're all
reinventing the wheel.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
And there's, there's some I mean there's so many
things.
Literally, talking to someother creators, in five minutes
I ironed out pain points in mylike behind the scenes workflow
and issues that I've beenstruggling with for over a year.
But I had no, no way to knowand they're like oh, you can
just do this, that and the otherthing oh, I had no idea.
Problem solved.
Like you know, I I've talkedabout my experience and shifting

(32:39):
from starting a channel where Iwas very anti-earning any money
off of it because it needed tobe pure and have all integrity
intact, to then spending sevenyears learning like, guess what,
you can do something thatgenerates money and has
integrity and maybe that's kindof the best thing because then
you can support yourself withthe thing that you love and I

(33:01):
know my journey is unique, Justlike navigating all that you
know.
I probably could have, you know,tightened up that time frame a
little bit, which probably wouldhave been better for a lot of
reasons, instead of having tojust poke around in the dark and
trial and error it, because I'malso inventing the wheel, while
you're inventing the wheel,while everyone else is doing it.
It's like we're all just tryingto get to the same basic place.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
So being able to get everyone T-Night, I think would
be awesome, but then long, noteven long-term.
What I would love to happen isa seat at the table at these
things that talk about thecreator economy.
Someone represent this verylarge group of creators that by

(33:45):
themselves is not enough to getthe support of the big guys.
But we're here and we matterand we have a successful
business that we built off ofcontent creation.
We matter and we have asuccessful business that we
built off of content creationand I think it's.
It's really sad that you wouldjust dismiss it and I I don't.
I don't want to say that it'sintentional, I just really don't

(34:07):
think that they know, I thinkit's genuinely ignorance.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, you don't know any better.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
And, of course, obviously like, if you're if
you're a mega tuber, you'reprobably not watching a channel
that's like 20 000 subscribers,but if you're if you're a mega
tuber you're probably notwatching a channel that's like
20,000 subscribers.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
But if you're putting on, if you come from a
traditional media background andyou're putting on a thing
creator economy you're going tolook at oh, that means YouTube.
Okay, well, what are thebiggest ones?
Let's go there and I get likeit sounds weird, but from an
ignorant standpoint, that makessense.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
Right?
Well, because everyone's alwaysgoing to look at it from their
own lens, which that's why it'slike I don't, I don't blame them
, but I think the problem isthat, like we can't, no one can
speak if we do not get together.
That's the problem, you know,because, like sure, I'll be the
one to speak, but right now it'sme and tom hi.
I need people like we need toget together.

(34:57):
I don't know, I'm still tryingto wrap my head around this, but
I think it's important, and so,for the rest of this podcast,
what we wanted to do is talkabout the criteria that we Like
what does it mean to be a smallbusiness creator?
Yeah, or whatever the term endsup being.
The pending name right now issmall business creator.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
I'm telling you it's Official name TBD yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
But, but basically the person in the, the creator
in the middle right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Like, if you're listening to this, does it apply
to you?
Does it not apply to you?
Would you even want it to applyto you?
Yeah, whether or not it doesthat kind of stuff, yeah, and I
think that's good because itgoes from then.
You know, it's one thing tolike have complaints and be
frustrated about something, butit's another to have complaints
and then bring forward some kindof solution or idea.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
I definitely think the solution is to get people
together so there can be a voice.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
So this is that second part.
Then We've identified the thingthat bothers us, that we're
complaining about, that we'refrustrated with.
So now moving into the tryingto figure out a solution phase.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yes, okay, so here's the criteria, not in any order.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
And it's just what we have been like discussing.
So it's not.
This is not like a vettedresearch thing, it's not
finalized.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
This is Heather and Tom.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
It's not full.
You know there could be more.
There could be less yeah, butfull, you know there could be
more.
There could be less yeah, butthis is, this is the kind of
creator that we're thinkingabout.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, okay, so the first thing, uh, was annual
revenue minimum.
I do think that there needs tobe a minimum annual revenue
because we wanted todifferentiate from the person
who accidentally went viral oraccidentally made money on
adsense.
There's a difference betweenaccidentally making money on a
platform, which is very possible, yeah, but how do you sustain

(36:40):
that into a business over time?
Right, the?
You have to think about it, youhave to build it, right?

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
So we're calling that annual revenue for the minimum
just ten thousand bucks, whichis, you know, a significant
amount of money.
It's a life changing amount ofmoney.
But if this is a part timething for you, then yeah, 10 000
bucks yeah, so it doesn't meanyou have to be a full.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
It's not necessarily someone who's doing it full-time
right we know plenty of peoplewho are doing it part-time.
But you know, like, I have asecond youtube channel that I
post on, post whatever I want,whenever I want.
It last year got monetized andnow makes 20 to 25 a month.
Maybe if that were my onlychannel, it would not count.

(37:20):
I am getting creativefulfillment out of it building
connection with an audience,improving my video skills, like
all of those great things arestill happening.
It doesn't mean that thechannel is worthless, but it's
not.
It's not putting me in thiscategory of small business
creator because my annual incomeis a couple hundred bucks.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Maybe I think you have to look, you have to spend
the time thinking about, aboutyou know your value, just the
business it's hard toaccidentally make ten thousand
dollars a year.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, so by the time you've done that, being
intentional about it.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, all right, so that's the minimum.
Right now.
We have no maximum.
I initially put $5,000.
$500,000.
Sorry, yeah, $500,000.
And the reason why I did thatwas because I wanted to
differentiate between the peoplewho had payroll, who had
employees, who had a team, whohad a studio.
But I do feel like we mightknow a 1 million, 2 million

(38:15):
creator.
That is just in a very highpaying niche.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yeah, I think so that might actually make more than
that.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
So right now I'm just not going to put a cap.
No cap, no cap Okay, so here'sanother one Authenticity,
creative expression andindividuality are a priority.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
The driving factors.
Yeah, between why you makesomething in the first place.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
yes, I think, uh, connect, being able to connect
with people who get the thing,who either get you or get the
thing that it is that you'retalking about, I feel like, is a
huge part of why this creatormakes content, because I'll I'll
use Tom as an example.
Tom makes videos about audioand video.

(39:00):
This is what you have beenpassionate about, since you can
hold a camera.
If you saw that Minecraft wastrending, you're not going to
pivot to now chase this trend toget more views.
You can only make videos aboutthis topic, because this is the
thing literally camera on,camera off you're talking about.
Okay, he's, he's telling meabout the changes in the studio.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
I'm like, babe, just go record a video and go tell
your members yeah, no, it's,it's that, and it's not that you
can't, it's not that obviouslyyou can't.
You know, be a small businessseem like you're a small
business creator if money isyour priority, but when you're
looking at this and you look atsomeone who starts a business,

(39:44):
they're usually not trying toopen up their bakery for a year
or two and then shut it down.
You know and then change to likeyeah they usually want to do it
for the foreseeable future, andI think that's a quality that
the authenticity leads to, isit's people who do this for a
long time and before you're inthe small, small business
creator phase, when you're justin the small channel phase where
nobody's watching, there's norevenue happening.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
you have to do it when no one's watching and that
that could last for years.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
You know that could.
That could take a very longtime to, if you ever get out of
that stage.
But it almost doesn't matter,because you enjoyed it so much.
You're not going to give up,even when you're in that stage,
because you, you almost can'tyou're like compelled to make
these things, share the stuff,create these things and then, if
it happens, to grow, now you'rein the situation where you're
like, okay, how do I manage this?

Speaker 2 (40:32):
also.
I just want to put this outhere.
Uh, I always feel like I haveto disclaim this.
I'm not hating on people whochase trends, who want to be a
creator because they just wantto create.
You know, there are people whowant to be content creators and
it doesn't even really matterwhat the content is Like.
You want to be a part of thespace.
That is awesome, great.
I'm just trying to identify thetype of creator that we're

(40:58):
talking about so that we can gettogether.
It's not excluding because wethink you're better or we think
we're better, whatever.
I'm just trying to.
I feel like this group does nothave support.
We need to get together inorder to be supported, because
that's the thing is like.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
I always felt like a weirdo where it's like you know
you're investing so much timeand energy in this thing that
you know why are you doing that.
It makes sense now when peopleare like, oh, you can do it full
time in the channel group andthere's a decent income.
Of course you're going to dothat, but you know for most of
the time that I did the channel.
It was not that case and you, ofcourse, understood right from
the beginning.
But for other people, like thatis one of the first questions.

(41:34):
People ask how you make moneywith that.
And now I have, like it's stillan uncomfortable question.
But when it's like, oh, I don't, I'm spending money, I'm losing
money every year on thischannel.
Why are you doing that?
It's like I don't know how toexplain intrinsic motivation to
you.
You know, why do you want tolearn how to play the guitar,
even though you'll never be afamous musician Like I, just

(41:57):
really want to learn how to playthe guitar because I love it.
And that's a tough thing toexplain and it's an easy thing
to feel kind of crazy andisolated about, and it seems
like the people that we arethinking of and the people we've
interacted with, they all kindof started that way.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, All right.
Next thing is integrity andethics.
I'm not really sure how to.
Will you explain this, Causeyou're really good about this.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
It is having them, and and I would say that's not
to say okay.
There is a thing I've heardpeople say that it's impossible
to become a billionaireethically.
There's no such thing as amoral billionaire and if you
look at what somebody has to do,even if it seems like they have
the best intentions, there'sreally no way to amass that

(42:43):
amount of wealth without doingsomething.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
So I'm not even gonna say that, because I don't know
a billionaire.
I don't either.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
That's why I'm saying this is a thing.
I do believe this, but becauseit's an absurd you know, lord of
the Rings, dragon level, amountof wealth.
I don't want to say that youcan't be massive without
sacrificing integrity.
Because there are big creators,I would say, like Marques
Brownlee, I would say, mr who'sthe Boss we were talking about?

(43:14):
Like I'm thinking of like kindof these bigger tech channels
because that that's sort of moreof my sphere who operate under
a lot of integrity and it'sreally important to them, even
though they have teams, theyhave studios, yeah, and if they,
if they were to lose theirintegrity, it would kill their
entire business.
So it's a thing.
It's a thing that allowed themto grow.
It's a thing that they valuevery much, very much.
So it's not that bigger thingscan't have that stuff, but I

(43:36):
feel like smaller, smallercreators not only need to
operate from a place ofintegrity and ethics.
But because you're reinventingthe wheel, it's so easy to get
swept up in sacrificing thosethings without realizing you're
sacrificing them.
When you see a big creator youlike have a sponsorship from a
company and then that or asimilar company reaches out to

(43:59):
you, you might not realize thatthe terms they're giving you are
incredibly different and thatthe things they're asking you to
do are maybe a little bitquestionable, and you might
think this is just how it worksand the person that you admire,
maybe they said yes to the samethings, even though you have no
idea whether or not, that'sactually true.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Hell would who?
The hell would you?
Who are you going to go to toknow this?

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Yeah, you just have to figure it out yourself and
and I know for a fact, talkingto people if five creators work
with the same brand on fivesponsored things or brand deals,
they had five very differentbrand deals in so many different
ways.
And if you don't have a solididea of what you stand for and
what's important to you, itcould become so easy for you to

(44:39):
get manipulated and molded intowhatever the big brands.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Well, it's even like just doing things for the views
you know, like maybe you'redoing things that you wouldn't
necessarily.
Are you going to?

Speaker 1 (44:51):
put a lot of cleavage in your thumbnail.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
And you know, whatever you do you, how you do
you, but what I would do if it's?

Speaker 1 (44:57):
if it's a video about excel spreadsheet tutorials and
you got to put a bunch ofcleavage in the thumbnail.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Maybe that's you know like I don't know it's
questionable to talk aboutbecause I don't want to make
anybody feel bad.
Who does this?

Speaker 1 (45:11):
like you know, I don't here's the thing I don't
want to make.
I I think I'm almost to thepoint where I don't think we
need to disclaim it, becausewe're not out to harm anybody or
say anything negative toanybody, but what we want to do
is, right now we are part of agroup that does not have a place
yeah and by trying to sort ofbe over inclusive with people

(45:32):
who don't even care to beincluded in this place in the
first place we continue to endup without a place.
So straight up, if you're theperson who says you need to put
like tons of cleavage in yourthumbnail to get views or
whatever, we're not on the samepage right you can go do your
thing and you can be very happyabout it and you can get all
your views and I can be overhere and doing my thing.
But I don't really want to talkto you about how you're running

(45:53):
your business, because we arenot on the same page and I don't
want to run my business the waythat you're running your
business tom is popping off.
Guys, let's go sometimes youthe thing I really loved about
the video you made on yourchannel which go about go watch
it.
By the way, you should go watchit, it's very well put together
and it makes a lot of sense.
Um, but the thing I reallyliked was you did sort of put a

(46:18):
stake in the sand, like you madea claim, you formed an opinion
and that is going to potentiallyturn some people away or even,
you know, maybe upset someone ormake somebody feel bad if they
don't feel like they're part ofthat, and I don't want anyone to
feel bad, we're not talkingabout you.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
You you go find, go make your own thing, you know
yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
And if we're pointing out what you're doing and you
feel bad about it maybe that'sthe integrity.
Self-reflection is in order.
Like I don't, like I like.
There are obviously a lot ofdifferent circumstances and
people and situations around.
I don't think we can accountfor every single one of them.
We have no ill intent foreveryone.

(46:58):
We're trying to bring aspecific group of
underrepresented people together.
Transparency authenticity.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
I think, if you are listening to this podcast, is a
priority for both me and Tom.
Yes, I think you know this ifyou're listening to this and
that's the case for everybody.
That we know, so here's anexample.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
I don't know if you want to even talk about this,
but we were brainstormingyesterday while we're walking
the dogs.
We're like what if this didbecome a big group thing one day
?
It's a huge group and what if,you know, there's like, rather
than just being sort of like arandom group, a hodgepodge of
people like I think that suitsme, but what if it were maybe
something, a more official groupthat someone were a part of,
and a part of that might be thatyou have like some level of

(47:39):
like.
I don't know what it would be acertification, a something that
that states you know you're onboard with this type of ethic
statement yeah we'll say it'smodeled on the one that I have,
because that's one that peoplehave taken and used for
themselves in the past, and sonow anybody who sort of has that
little sticker, that badge,that gold star, any brand that

(48:02):
approaches them, knows the termsright away, and that means
they're not going to.
I'm not going to be able towork out something where I get
paid X amount of dollars andnobody has to review the thing
that I make, but then you workwith the same brand and you get
paid half as much and they haveto do three revisions on your
video.
Yeah, exactly it's all the same,it's all that.
That that's a very down theline.

(48:25):
You know potential like pipedream thing, but that kind of
thing and working with that kindof towards something you know,
having that idea of integrityand ethics, you know, doing as
little damage as possible, aslittle harm as possible, and all
that you do, I think, is a veryimportant part and I think also
it.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
It's not that like I don't know it's weird to talk
about, because I don't want tomake it seem like I feel I'm
like above these people who haveno integrity or whatever, but I
I do feel like having integrityas a content creator is
important to the longevity ofyour business it comes, it comes
transparency is part of this.

(49:07):
Like, literally, you are playingin a space where internet
sherlock sleuths yes willfreaking pick out your
frame-by-frame apology video,like it is in your favor to be
transparent, to have integrityand to have, like you know,
ethics.
I think otherwise it's just.

(49:29):
I mean, look at what'shappening with this other brand
right now.
You know we won't go into itwith this other brand right now.
You know we won't go, we won'tgo into it.
But I think I honestly think itis part of running a successful
business as a content creator,I don't know how else you do it.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
What if there were a restaurant and every table that
was seated got a menu withdifferent prices on it?
How long would that restaurantstay in business?
When it's like oh yeah, that $4burger was amazing.
What do you mean?
$4?
It cost me $34.
Like, oh, you mean the $80burger?
And suddenly everyone'srealizing like wait a minute,
this is all like going over here.

(50:06):
Oh, this vegetarian thing turnsout it's just beef.
Like, if this business isoperating without integrity,
they're not paying theiremployees on time.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
They integrity.
They're not paying theiremployees on time.
They're like it's probablygonna go under pretty quick.
Well, that and like I feel.
So the thing that I'm thinkingabout is, like, over the eight
years that I've been doing this,one of the one of the pieces of
advice that I got was to beextreme oh yeah, I remember and
the person who told me to beextreme had an eating channel
where they would eat food oncamera and the video that I
watched after they told me to beextreme in order to get views

(50:47):
Because you got this advice.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
It was like okay, well, let me go home.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
This person was in the six-figure subscriber, you
know hundred.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
I don't know.
Multiple, like multiple timesover, yeah, and I obviously I'm
nowhere near that and I have notbeen subscriber.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
You know hundred, I don't know multiple, like
multiple times over, yeah, andand I obviously I'm nowhere near
that and I have not been.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
They gave you this advice and you went home, looked
up their channel, like what dothey mean?
What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (51:03):
yes, and the the thing that I saw which, again,
I'm not judging, it's just notwhat I would do was like taking
a corn dog, putting all thismustard at the end of it and
then like shoving it down yourthroat.
I would never do that.
It's just not.
I don't know, it's just not.
It's extreme.
It's definitely extreme.

(51:23):
I, that person, doesn't makecontent anymore, right, so it's
extremely unsustainable I just Ithink that part of having
integrity is creating contentthat you're proud of, and so I
think that's different foreverybody, but it's not just
like being transparent, but it'salso like if you have to

(51:46):
sacrifice a part of your soul toget views.
I'm just not talking about you.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Go, do you Go, do you , you know?

Speaker 2 (51:56):
obviously it worked.
Obviously it worked.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
For a time it did.
But especially if you'resomebody who's still like you
know, if you're so far down thatyou're probably not listening
to this, you're so far in thatdirection.
But if you're somebody who,every time you click upload, you
kind of have to get past thispit in your stomach of like I
feel weird about this, butthat's, I guess that's how it is
.
Click, that's one of thosesignals to like, look at and to
think about, because you're onlygoing to want to talk yourself

(52:20):
out of something.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
I'll use an example for me right.
The first time I ever got Ibelieve this is the very first
time I got a brand deal was theCool Wheel.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Which is an electric skateboard.
And they reached out to mebecause they saw my boosted
board review and they were likehey, we're gonna send you this
600 product, can you make avideo about it?
And I I, I think I don't evenknow.
This is like 2016.
I did have the know-how of likecan I be absolutely honest.
They were like, yeah, we justwant a video.
And then it got complicatedbecause they were like can we

(52:55):
use your face on the website?

Speaker 1 (52:57):
and I was like, oh, yeah, hang on a minute, yeah, I
don't know about that, but I'llmake a video on my channel.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Uh, I ride the thing.
It is it.
It doesn't suck.
It's just to me.
Compared to the boosted board,it sucked um right and I felt.
I felt weird.
I didn't know how to navigatethis.
I felt weird about like yeah.
It was the equivalent of it'sfine.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
You know, I was just like yeah, it's fine, you know.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
But you know there's a better thing out there.
Yes.
It's not to be the one you'regoing to pick up and use ever
there's never going to be a time.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
I mean I gave it away .
Yeah, I still, you know.
So that that's me navigating itthere.
My gut was telling me, you know, I want to be honest here, but
it's hard now that I know no oneknows that I got that.
And then back then, this was2016.
There was no checkbox to checkthat you got a sponsored thing
or you know not, yeah.

(53:54):
So sometimes it's clear-cut,sometimes it's not sometimes,
but being able to have a groupwhere you who get people who get
it, they're trying to do thesame thing that you're doing, so
we can talk to each other andnavigate yeah, exactly, so
you're not just doing it, byyourself reinventing the wheel
yeah, I mean here's.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Here's a good example .
Actually, this is one of theconversations we had at nAB.
We were with a group ofcreators and someone was
explaining somebody else'schannel to us it's a camera
channel and they were saying,yeah, it's super interesting.
He noticed his views increasedwhen he stopped putting the name
of like the camera lens or thecamera in the title and just
does something like this is thelens you need, or you know, wide

(54:33):
angle, masterpiece, whatever.
This is the lens you need oryou know, wide angle,
masterpiece, whatever.
And so he doesn't say the nameof the lens and like doesn't
hide it, like later in the videoit will pop up.
But it's almost like the way itwas sort of pitched at first was
like, oh, he noticed his viewswent up because people have to
watch to do the thing, and I waskind of thinking, cause I
hadn't met this person yet, Iwas sort of thinking like, oh,
it's sort of like, hmm, I don'tknow how I feel about that.

(54:55):
Then I met the person and hisexplanation for that was yes, I
did notice the views went upwhen they did that, but that's
because people don't necessarilycare about this specific focal
length or this specific thingthey want to know what you can
do with it.
So if I'm making a video thatsays you know whatever, 24 to
105 lens, so many people are noteven going to know what that

(55:17):
means or care or be interested.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
But if you make a video, that person who already
knows, knows, but then theperson.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
If you, if there's a video, that's like the only lens
you need for vacation orsomething right, oh, I'm going
on vacation.
I want to know what that lensis, and I don't even I don't
even care about the numbers thatare on the lens.
I want to know, oh, it's goingto let me take wide shots of
scenery, but I can still zoom inand get you know, like wildlife
or portraits or something.
Oh, that's pretty cool, and oh,and at the end it happens to be

(55:44):
this one, or here's the linkthat takes me to the lens, but I
don't even care what it is, andso it was something that
sounded kind of shady when itwas described to me, but then,
after meeting the person, seeinghow they did it and why they
did it, I feel that it's totallylike a win-win.
It's a thing that they'reoperating with a level of ethics
and integrity.
They're also doing what'sbeneficial for their channel,

(56:05):
which is growing, and it'sbeneficial for the audience
because people are understanding, probably reaching a different
audience Exactly.
People are understanding and,believe it or not, by the end,
by the time someone goes throughthat, watches the video, buys
the lens, uses it, they're goingto pick up that info and now
they're going to know, they'regoing to have an idea they have
learned.
Yeah, I'm using this is arandom exam, I don't even think
it's an example, but they'regoing to know what 24 to 105 is,

(56:26):
which they wouldn't have caredabout before.
So it's, it's one of thosethings that's a win-win-win.
But that's a very savvyapproach that requires trial and
error and conversation andfiguring out.
And you know, for every videothat now does well, because this
formula has been found, therewere probably many, many that
didn't and were frustrating andyou know like navigating that

(56:48):
kind of thing, excuse me whathappened to you A little choked
up here.
All right, let's move on to thenext thing's do it uh,
influencing happens organicallyyes, so it's an influencer who
only pitches organic goods uh,so okay, creators versus

(57:08):
influencers I feel like there isa difference this is a whole.
This is a whole discussion onits own.
We do could do a whole podcaston this so like, let's try to.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
Yeah, it's there's a Venn diagram where there's
overlap.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Some creators are influencers.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
I feel like the group that we're talking about.
They do not use the wordinfluencer to describe
themselves.
They also don't use the wordentrepreneur to describe
themselves is my hunch.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Even if they are an influencer or they are an
entrepreneur, but they don'tthey don't.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
That's not the label they give themselves.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
I remember sitting next to someone at a hockey game
and they were asking, like,during the intermission, what do
you do?
And I was like oh, like have ayoutube channel, whatever.
And he was like oh, so thatmeans you're like an influencer?
And I remember going like Iguess technically, but like I
don't like that term and hewasn't wrong, but I wouldn't I
don't think an influencer cameup with the word influencer.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
No, that's a marketing term.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
But I mean you.
You know when, when you'recreating from this place and you
reach a point where you're, youknow, generating a full or
part-time revenue from it, youprobably do have some kind of
influence over an audience thatyou have built up over a long
time.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
And see the thing, thing that's so stupid.
Sorry to cut you off.
It's like obviously we haveinfluence among our family and
friends, right?
I love you.
If I see something that I knowyou're going to like, obviously
I'm going to tell you about it,right?
If I care about, if I careabout this person, I see
something that makes me think ofthem, I use something that I
think that they would like.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
I'm going to like, I'm gonna it's word of mouth,
right and I feel like that isthe organic part of what these
creators do on their channel.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Yeah, so like for you , same thing.
Yeah, like, hey, I took thismicrophone to nab whatever.
Like this is what was greatabout it.
Here you go.
It's different when it's likeyou just become the home
shopping network yeah, yeah it's, it's entirely different, like
the, you know the any you didn't.
You got it because you weresent it.
You wouldn't have got itotherwise.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Yeah, I mean, and even in in some of those cases
so, like the.
A good example of this is theHolly land Mars, which is a
wireless video transmittersystem.
So you can plug one into acamera, plug the receiver into
like your computer or a switcheror something, and now you can
wirelessly transmit videowithout needing a cable.
That's very cool and that'ssomething I was very curious

(59:22):
about, but it was like 700 bucksand I wasn't curious enough
about it to spend $700 on it,but eventually this was maybe
like three or four years agoHollyland reached out, said, hey
, do you want to try this?
And I said I really do want totry this because I'm genuinely
curious about it.
Of course, it's the whole thingno obligation to make a video
or anything but I ended upmaking a video because I found
it so interesting and because Iwanted to answer a lot of the

(59:44):
questions I had about it when Iwas thinking about using it, and
so I made a video about it.
But I still use it a lot and soeven now, sometimes it will pop
up in a thing where people willsay what's that connected to
your camera?
And I say, oh, it's a HollylandMars wireless video thing.
I use it for this reason.
They might click a link to gobuy that because of that.
So therefore, I'm influencingthem and I was sent the thing

(01:00:10):
for free, but I'm not making thevideo or showcasing it.
You need to get this, eventhough you don't really need to
get it, but you need to get itbecause you need to click my
link and get the thing.
It's just like yeah, this isthe thing I use and it's cool.
Other times it's, you know, Idon't know.
Here's the desk mat I bought onamazon.
You like the way it looks.
Well, here's where you go getit.
I don't know this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
This varies among niches, right, but I I also
think that there is something tobe said, like red bull's
approach you know of, likethere's no way you can do this
on your own, but we have thefunding yeah like we can help
you do this insane thing.
It's the same thing.
Like you know, the company canpay you and then now you're able

(01:00:49):
to I don't go on a trip and dothese- right, great like do this
thing that you.
it matters who is doing it tothe audience.
Because they care.
There's a trust there Becauseof the integrity B&H sent us to
NAB.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Right, they covered our travel costs to go to NAB.
We could have gone without them, but it would have been a lot
more difficult and a lot easier,especially prior to going and
knowing what it's like to bethere.
It would have been easier to golike nah, just not, yeah.
But they enabled us to do thatby covering those costs.
All they asked in return was,if you make anything, just say
thanks, b&h, for sending us here.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
So thanks, b&h.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Yes, thanks B&H, which we did and that's it.
They didn't.
There wasn't like it needs tobe this long it you make
anything.
So that's, that's pretty good,um, and that's pretty organic.
And also like I've been shoppingat bnh since 2001, when or no,
2000, when my ninth grade videoproduction teacher was like, oh,

(01:01:43):
you want to get a camera, go tothis website.
And I was like you can buystuff on a website.
That's so crazy, that's notebay um, like so, 24 years of
using bnh's website, having beento their store multiple times,
you know, know, like I trustthem.
Right, I'm totally.
They enable us to do somethingreally great, which ended up
being a very powerful thing forus, and I'm very happy to give

(01:02:05):
them credit for doing that.
And it's also a thing where, ifI tell somebody, yeah, I bought
my cameras from B&H, I boughtthis, whatever, so many things
from B&H funded both of myschool programs with so much
stuff from bnh.
I trust that when that persongoes to bnh, they're going to be
taken care of, they're going toget a fair price, good customer
service, be able to returnsomething if something goes

(01:02:26):
wrong, you know.
So it's like that.
There's that level of integrity.
You shop at bnh I shop at pnh,yeah and have for years that is
not because you're paid exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
So yeah, influencing happens organically, okay.
So the next one is uh, theright fit matters for whatever
is being sold.
I'm not, I'm actually not soldon this point, but I, I just I
don't know I almost feel likethat ties into integrity and
ethics a bit.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Yeah, like you know, my whole thing here was.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Like you know, an online course is a very popular
product for content creators.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Oh, you mean what the person is selling.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Yeah, Like the right fit matters to whatever it is
that you're selling.
So like an online course,popular product, you have one.
But what I have seen is youknow you'll have a marketing
funnel and it doesn't matter whothe hell gets in the funnel,
Just put a million people inthere and then you know you can
trust a conversion rate of like20%.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
You just want everyone like buy my course, buy
my course, buy my course.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
It'll change your life.
Yeah, you know you'll make sixfigures.
I want you to buy my.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Final Cut.
Pro course, I don't care thatyou edit with Resolve.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Buy my it with resolve by my final cut course.
Yeah, it's a terrible as I feellike.
Okay, I'm gonna use peterlingren as an example, because
he designed his battery chargerright based off of his own pain
points and his own experience.
And there you go people whowatch his channel.
Guess what?
they have the same pain pointsright because it's you have that
in common, which is why you'rewatching him, and so it wouldn't
make sense to anybody else.
But if you are someone whocreates content or whatever,
like peter, it's a perfect fit,right?

(01:04:02):
Yes, so I feel like there is a,there is a care in terms of
what is being sold and who it isbeing like, who's being
targeted with the thing that youare selling yeah, and is it?

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
is it a decent thing or is it just like some hunk of
junk?
You slapped a logo onto orsomething?

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
so the reason why I'm not sure if that should be like
uh criteria is I don't know ifthe way that we all this group
monetizes is so different, so Idon't even know if I feel like
that's a subset of integrity andethics yeah, maybe not a
standalone point, but it's sortof a subset.
There you can hear the penclicking okay, uh, okay.

(01:04:42):
The next point is um, wantingto make a difference, slash
impact.
I, I don't think I didn't starta youtube channel because I
wanted to make a difference.
You know, know, that's whathappened.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Actually I did, but you wanted to educate and
empower people to utilizedigital media to achieve
meaningful goals.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Yes, so I actually did, but I feel, like a lot of
people, it's okay.
So I started two YouTubechannels.
Yeah, I started the one thatwas the tutorial channel to do
that, that mission statement,and then I started a vlog to
document the journey in buildingthat.
To vlog to document the journeyin building that on my vlog I I
didn't think anyone would watch, it was just, it was an easier

(01:05:20):
way for me to journal sure whichI would have done, but it takes
too long, and so I was liketalking to the camera.
I didn't think anyone actuallywould watch.
You know, I just I don't know,and and when I was making it no
one was watching, right, uh.
But now that I have made animpact I've gotten comments,
I've talked to people, I've madefriends, I've met you yeah

(01:05:43):
through this platform where I Iam able I don't even know how
this is possible, but I'm ableto inspire, educate, empower,
support, encourage, empower,support, encourage, be your
cheerleader, like if not forYouTube, I wouldn't be able to
do that.
Yeah, you know and I take pridein that.

(01:06:03):
That is one of the reasons whyI do it and I'm excited about
that, and I think a lot of thesepeople care about the impact
that they make.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Yeah, I think that works, and that's it reminds me
it might be a subset, it couldbe a subset, but I remember when
, especially when I would dodocumentary projects with my
students and I was teaching um,one of the points in the prompt
talked about audience andpurpose and it was always what
do you want someone?

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
purpose.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Ooh, I like that there and say in the prompt what
do you want someone to know,think, feel or do as a result of
this?
And you know that could besomething like register to vote
and go vote in the next like avery active, you need to go
physically do this.
Or it could just be somethingof like you know this, or maybe
you're thinking about this thinga different way, or you feel
entertained but having a purposewhich is beyond just like look

(01:06:57):
me, I'm making a video.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
It's important if you if you just look at this list
right here, do you see what Imean in terms of like this is a
craft that we put so much ofourselves into and then for it
to be dismissed.
You see why I was upset oh yeah, no, I left.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
That's what?
Because heather keeps going.
You know, she's like theself-doubt comes in and she's
like am I just overreacting oris this I?
Keep going like I left and Iwas again sitting in the middle
of the row, so I had to debate.
Leaving didn't mean like, oops,stand up.
I had to stand up and thenexcuse me, excuse me, excuse me,
excuse me and then leave and wewere like in the third row.
Yeah, we were in the middle,middle, yeah, so everyone and I

(01:07:33):
have a big camera bag andstuff's falling out and it's
like you know, and I, finally, Iwas like these people don't
care that I'm here, so I'm notgonna care that.
I actually would rather goorganize my microphones right
now yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
So, uh, the, oh, the last two.
Um, this should have been atthe top, but it's a one person.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
It's a one person, so a lot of the mega creators we
were talking about.
You know you can say a lotabout mr beast.
That's a one person.
It's a one person.
So a lot of the mega creatorswe're talking about.
You know you can say a lotabout mr beast.
That's a whole studio, likeeven uh, mark rober.
You know, like the colin andsamir recently did a profile on
him, he already had a massivestudio warehouse thing and they
go to his like how it's beenexpanded and they're like oh, it
was so small and chill beforebecause now it's like literally
building a soundstage.

(01:08:15):
There's teams of people thatare producing basically a
factory for, like, physicalproducts and things.
That's cool.
I feel like mark rober operateswith a lot of integrity and a
lot of ethics and super cool isa net positive on humanity and
the platform.
That's not this, though, exactlyso what he's doing is great,
but it's not this, and it's notsomething I could ever do or
would actually ever want to do,probably yeah um.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
So a team of one, you're, you're the independent I
said one or two because, youknow, tom and I are an example
we help each other with thechannel yeah and I.
I do feel like there's a lot ofuh, you know, couples or
partners or you know whateverthat two people run a channel
it's, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
And that's not to say you don't contract out.
So it doesn't mean like, ohwell, I hire an accountant, so
yeah, does that mean I'm too?

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
big payroll is different than paying
contractors are different.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
If, even if you hire someone to do your thumbnail or
you send your captions out tosomething like rev or whatever
you know you're, you're stillthe independent thing you're
contracting stuff independentcreator you're an independent
creator yeah and that shouldmean one or two people.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
Beyond that, as soon as you're hiring employees that
in dealing with like an hr world, yeah it's different so the
last thing isn't isn't actuallylike officially part of the list
, but this was one that youwanted to put on there, which is
um like uh, a minimum amount oftime that you've been doing

(01:09:44):
this so what I meant by I don'tknow that that needs to be on
there.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
I think that's a self , I think it like takes care of
itself right if you check theseboxes in six months, right
exactly um but you're, why didyou put it on there?
yeah, so this is this has beenmy.
My gripe with youtube for for along time is, like I was saying
earlier in this, if you're asmall creator and you're just
starting out which is anobviously a very important part

(01:10:11):
of the journey that everyone hasto go through there's a lot of
resources for you, uh, but youalso, like, the stakes aren't
very high.
You know, like, yeah, thestakes aren't very high.
If you're a mega creator, youhave different resources.
Everything from you know whatmanagement, what gets?
chosen as management directcontact at youtube legal.
The example I used was if oneof those mega channels gets

(01:10:32):
taken over by, like a bitcoinscheme or whatever it's going to
be a frustrating nightmare forthem, but it's going to be
resolved in less than a day,maybe even before anyone notices
.
It might give some people someheart attacks behind the scenes
that work on the channel, butit's going to get taken care of.
If that happens to pretty muchanyone else, they may never get
their channel back and even,like you know, kevin the basic

(01:10:53):
filmmaker, one of our friends,who had that happen to him
several years ago, it took himweeks, maybe over a month, six
weeks weeks to get his channelback, where it just showed up
and had his videos and stuff onit again, and to this day, over
three years later, it has neverrecovered.
It essentially got shadowbanned because YouTube was

(01:11:13):
picking it up as like well,you've done sort of sketchy
streams in the past.
Instead of being able to have aperson look at this channel
that had been on the platformfor over a decade with well over
100,000 subscribers, had neverviolated anything, had this one
incidence where it was attackedand being able to go.
Oh, all the suspicious activitycame from this.
One thing it's not you.
We can unshadow, ban yourchannel or whatever yeah no, to

(01:11:37):
this day it's still a problem.
That's really scary.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
And it's really scary that the the, like I said
earlier, if you're kind of underthat like three million
subscriber mark to zero, you'reall in the same lump yeah, and
what you were saying was thatyou know, if you, if you have a
proven track record of like two,three, four longer than that

(01:12:01):
years of successfully creatingcontent on the channel,
consistently growing a channelyou're, you're consistently
uploading, you're consistentlygetting new views and engagement
, and all of that doesn't thatcount for something?
and then, and the reason forthat is like even if you're a
smaller channel, doesn't thatcount for something?

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
yeah, it's, it's not even so much channel size, but
it kind of goes back to thething of, like youtube, you know
, if they want to spread theviews around so that all their
eggs aren't in this, these onebaskets of like huge, huge
channels that could decide toleave one day Instead of just
picking anyone.
You know, like, if you look ata channel, like, okay, if I quit
, if I quit, yes, somebody else,there will be another channel

(01:12:44):
taking my place.
Are they going to create 500videos over a period of seven
plus years, or are they going tocreate a couple of videos this
month and then Peter out?

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):
like you have a proven no-transcript.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Hey, I want to support your channel.
Do you prefer Patreon orYouTube?
In a perfect world, I wouldjust say YouTube because
everything's in one place.
I can do members only streams,I can see everybody.
It's the easiest thing to joinand you don't have to leave the
platform.
I told them Patreon because ifYouTube goes crazy and
disappears, I don't want all theeggs in one basket.
I have YouTube and Patreon andthat's because I want it to be

(01:13:44):
whatever somebody prefers.
But if someone's going to askme what they prefer, I say
Patreon because it's separate,because I don't trust YouTube,
because they give no reason totrust them for these kinds of
things.
What if they did?
And that means what if theyfound these creators and sort of
cultivated these you know theserelationships to make you feel
a little bit secure.

(01:14:04):
There's only so much they couldoffer, so much security they
could give you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
But any you know, yeah, there's nothing, it's four
at zero, any would be nice.

Speaker 1 (01:14:17):
And so that the idea, by the time you would get to
that point it's not evennecessarily about your audience
size, but by the time you get tothat point you've already sort
of figured some stuff out,you've already built an audience
, you've already figured outthat this wasn't like one of
those ideas you have late atnight.
We're like I'm gonna start aYouTube channel.
I'm psyched about it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
You've built a business.
You've built a successfulbusiness, yeah, by the time
you've got to that point.

Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
You've built a business yeah and so that it's
not.
It's not that there needs to bea duration of time, but it it
probably just can't, bydefinition, be someone who's
like I started a channel twomonths ago, like I want to be a
small business creator.
It's like maybe one day yeah,but right now you're in the
figuring it out growing phaseand there's nothing wrong with
that.
But it's a very important phase.
But you need to figure out,like are you going to keep doing

(01:14:57):
this when?
When it's video, you know videoone and two are really cool and
fun, but when it's video 86 andyou're still getting 30 views,
maybe Right, you know like, yeah.
That's the example I have.
By the time I had 50, 45, 50videos on my channel I had been
doing it for many, many months Ihad 36 subscribers.

(01:15:21):
yeah, it's a lot of videos fornot a lot of eyeballs yeah um,
but then I just kept going forseven more years like yeah, and
so that's it.
That's all I got I mean, that'sa good, that's just what we're
thinking about.
So, again, to kind of take itback, if I'm curious, you know,
if you listening to this, if anyof that resonated with you, or

(01:15:43):
if you thought any of it was wayoff the mark, or if you thought
, yeah, also, what about blah,blah, blah?

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
yeah, so on my video.
Uh, scroll down to the comments.
You know a lot of people didnot leave a comment and instead
reached out to me, um, becausethey allowed a lot more to say
or didn't want to publicly saywhich is fine.
So it's been.
Obviously, this has kicked offa conversation like it's not

(01:16:08):
just in Heather's head.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
Right?
No, it actually connected withpeople, and some of the people
emailed you too, or like.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
Well, actually one of them was a panelist, One of
them was one of the panelistsfrom the talk, which is great.
They wanted to know more, andthey were.
She was the one that I actuallylike.
She should have just done thewhole talk, in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Yeah, it was the one positive thing you said, so
maybe that's why they're the onethat reached out.
But I will definitely link toHeather's video in the notes for
this episode, in the notes forthis episode and if people want
to.
Obviously, if you have thoughts, you can always do the normal
channels of Tom andEnthusiasmProjectcom or
HiMyNameIsTomcom, but if youalso want to reach out to
Heather directly, oh, just hitme up on Instagram.

(01:16:46):
At Heather Just Create.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
Yeah, but the thing that I wanted to leave everyone
with is people have told me andtom to do it like you should do
this.
Sorry, oh my god, you seventhgrader right now.
Are you serious?

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):
oh my god anyway, oh yeah, yeah, people see the video
and they go.
This is great.
Yeah, you guys should totallydo this yeah we don't know what
that is.
What is it?

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
yeah, and I have, I have a ton of ideas.
I have all of the ideas, uh.
But I'm curious if you identifywith this criteria, what would
you like to see?
You know, I so much of whatwe're basing this off of is our
own experience, but also all ofthe creators that, collectively,

(01:17:35):
we've met over the 15 yearsthat we've been doing this
between the two of us right uh,but now that we've we've kind of
put together some parametersand you know, we we've kicked
off the conversation.
Uh, how do you feel about this?
What would you like to see?
You know, do you care, Right?

(01:17:57):
So, cause my my thing, my, thisis my self doubt.
Uh is like who cares?
You know Cause okay, cool,let's, let's so.
So what if we get together?
How is that any different thanall the discord servers that
already exist?

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
I discord servers that already exist.
I feel like it struck a chordwith me and many other people,
but I, the more you can help,heather, extinguish, snuff out
the self-doubt, the better I, Iwant, I am passionate about this
, I want to do something.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
I want to do something and I have some, uh,
pretty viable ideas, I think.
But I want to see, like, if youare you know, if you're a small
business creator in Nebraska, Idon't know what you're going
through Like, what would youlike to see you know?
Or in a totally different niche, or country, or whatever.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:18:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
So there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
That's a great place to leave it.
All right.
Thanks for being here andsharing all your insights.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for listening Again.
You know where to go if youhave any questions, comments or
anything.
Otherwise, I hope you have asafe, happy, healthy, fun rest
of your day and I'll see younext time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
Bye, we'll see you next time.

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