90 From Compliance to Strategy: How Smart Business Owners Build Long-Term Success | Christopher Papin - The Entreprenudist Podcast: The Place To Hear Real Entrepreneurs & Business Owners Bare It All

Episode Transcript
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(00:14):
Welcome to another episode ofThe Entrepreneur Podcast, the
place that we're here, realentrepreneurs and business owners.
Bear it all.
Uh, I am your hostagain, Randolph Love ii.
And I'm so happy that we're starting,uh, doing more of these, uh,
one-on-one interviews with people.
I know a lot of people have been very,uh, uh, entertained by, uh, are showing

(00:36):
the insides of these workshops and,and what the conversations are, but.
So a lot of times you need to havethat one-on-one time and have that
conversation with these experts,professionals, and people who
are practicing at being perfect.
Uh, and I have somebody likethat on my podcast right now.
A please tell people whoare you and what do you do.

(00:57):
You got it.
I am Christopher c Papin.
I go by Chris.
There's two Chris's.
Chris is in the office, sooftentimes I get the affectionate,
you know, uh, athletic, Hey,Papin, what's going on here?
Mm-hmm.
Um, attorney, CPA carryinginsurance license.
Um, we position ourselves, our clientbase, and all of our conversations

(01:18):
or talking to small businesses.
Small business owners and folks thatare adjacent to those industries.
Um, helping people build wealth, helpingpeople navigate, you know, kind of the,
just the real life stuff that there'snot really anybody else to talk to.
Uh, as a business owner, sometimesit's lonely at the top, right?

(01:38):
Mm-hmm.
Attorney, CPA, like you arelike the super refer, like, you
know how, um, somebody that.
I imagine anybody that you refer.
Those people go to immediately.
And I also imagine that when peoplecome to you and ask you for your
opinion, they usually don't research it.

(01:59):
They be like, all right, Chris,Chris Papin said it, it must be true.
Yeah.
There's, it's, it does go both ways.
The, the thing that's alwaysinteresting on a, on a referral is, um.
I think especially istrue in today's world.
You need those validators,like a website, like a domain.
You know, if I had C papin@gmail.com,I bet it would carry a different

(02:24):
weight than we've got a lawfirm at Papin CPA at Papin Law.
So those little validatorsgoing along with.
Credentials or, or things like that Ithink are just as important, even though
people probably would not verbalize them.
Hmm, exactly.
And, and even if they don't realize,uh, that it's important, uh, 'cause

(02:49):
what you just named out is thedifference between having that, uh, at
Gmail or at something that's custom.
Uh, and, and, and once again, that'sone of those things to where you don't
realize it until you talk to somebodysuch as yourself that says, Hey, you
might not have realized this, but youknow, you look at your nose all day
and, and, and, and when I tell peoplethat, they'll be like, what do you mean?

(03:11):
I say, look at your field of view.
Do you see your nose?
No.
Alright.
Now look down.
Yes.
Alright.
So you realize your noseis in your field of view.
This whole time, your brain just blocksit out because it doesn't realize
it's important or it doesn't thinkit's important As far as sin, it's, it
sounds like, um, working with you isn'tjust, uh, one thing for what you need.

(03:35):
It sounds like you look at what'scurrently going on in their business
and then you point out things like that.
I, it's, that's a great way to set it up.
Um, you know, like I get easy forme to say like a new business owner,
uh, maybe a new insurance agent,you know, they're coming to you
saying, I need an LLC, I need someguidance on tax and accounting work.
How should I be?

(03:56):
We know the questions they'regonna ask in 18 months.
We know the questions they'regonna ask in 36 months.
We know the question they're thatthey're gonna ask when their lease
is renewing, but to your point.
I'm focused right here,not right here, right here.
It's subtle.
For those that are listening,I'm pointing at my nose.
I'm pointing just slightly in front of it.

(04:18):
It's important though in in proximitymatters and all of that stuff.
No different than some ofthe best athletes out there.
Mm-hmm.
You can make all thefree throws in practice.
But if they don't go down inthe fourth quarter, they make
fun of you on Sports Center.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
You, you only as good as, uh,what you most recently did.
Uh, is there nothing that you knownow that you wish you knew when you

(04:41):
first started doing what you're doing?
I. Probably two things.
Uh, the first one is easy.
Uh, when I was younger, I had atendency to want to know the answer
or be the guy that had the answer.
And sometimes being able to sayI don't know, is actually just
as powerful as having the answer.
So I wish I'd have learnedthat a little sooner.

(05:02):
I had some mentors coach me into thatearly, but it was still something
I, I kind of carried with me.
And then the second is I was very, um, I.
Objective oriented isthe way I'm gonna say it.
I was a, as a former athlete,I played soccer all my life.
I coach soccer now, so, youknow, you got 50 some odd years

(05:25):
of experience being in that.
So it, it was about winningthe game or advancing to the
next stage of the tournament.
And with a lot of businesses,it's not about win or loss.
Sometimes it is, but oftentimesit's about just iterations of
being a better version of yourself.

(05:45):
And it's, I equate it to practice moreso than, than the the game itself.
And I think you started here, someonewho's practicing to be perfect.
That's the goal.
Fully recognizing we're nevergonna be perfect, but every day
you gotta iterate, you've gottachange, you've gotta be adaptable.
To whatever's coming at youso that you are progressing.

(06:08):
Because if you're not, peopleare flying by you, especially
in today's technology land.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And, and that's one of the things thatI, I share with people because, uh, with,
with the line of work that I'm in, um, alot of time and, and especially with the
duality of my personalities, uh, I, I,I, I encounter a lot of people who are I.

(06:32):
Just coming into the business.
And I'm also in masterminds, youknow, those type of masterminds
that cost, uh, 20,000 plus annuallyof people who've been in the, uh,
industry for 10, 20, 30, 40 plus years.
And then I'm able to collapse thattime, of course, me, uh, establishing
myself in my industry and payand being able to pay that money.

(06:54):
But also, uh, bring people in.
And one of the first things thatI teach them is that people, most
affluent people, you know, you know,not necessarily the count counting the
people that inherited it, but the peoplewho earned their money, most of them
know when you don't know an answer, andmost of them are not gonna correct you

(07:18):
when you say something that's not true.
They're gonna ask you questions,understanding that it's impossible for
anybody to know anything, but when youstart trying to answer a question that
you don't know and are unable to say thatyou don't know it, it sends a red flag to

(07:39):
the front of their brain and the back oftheir brain to not do business with you.
So, yeah, uh, I agreewith what you're saying.
The ability to say, I don't know,you need to learn sooner than later.
Uh, uh, no matter who you're workingwith, but especially if you are working
with a affluent person who earnedtheir money and can read body language.
Yeah.

(08:00):
Yeah.
I, and, and the way you, the way you'vesaid that, like, there, there is something
inside of folks that have earned becausethey've been down that path before.
And you're, you're absolutely correctabout kind of a BS meter, if you will,
to, to put it in different terms.
But the, um, well, I don't know,let me pose this as a question

(08:24):
to you rather than a statement.
'cause I'd, I'd be curious in,in working with the folks in
your, in your mastermind groups.
When they sense that you've already kindof talked about the red flags, but what is
the feedback that they give to you of howthey behave when they sense those things?
So, uh, myself and them as wellas well, uh, we've learned not

(08:49):
to give unsolicited advice.
So typically in those scenarios whenwe sense that our inner good person.
Wants to give them the right answer.
And or correct them, right, for whatever.
And 'cause we know it's about failingforward for whatever engagement that

(09:12):
they're gonna have in the future.
Like, I'm not gonna do business withyou, but I wouldn't mind sharing
with you what triggered me, right?
Uh, but in those instances, unlesssomebody asks them or myself explicitly,
I'm not gonna necessarily say.
Uh, what, you know, I'm not gonna, I'mgonna not, I'm not gonna voluntarily
say what triggered, uh, that red flag.

(09:34):
I'm just gonna, uh, you know,nod and, uh, politely end the
conversation and move forward.
And, and I think this sets up whatI, what I was hoping to get at.
I'm grateful you answered it theway I hoped you might, but client
feedback, customer feedback, beingable to ask, am I on the right path?

(09:55):
Do you have concerns?
And being vulnerable to the actuallegitimate feedback they give you is,
is really, really powerful because Ithink that can create a, a very good
bond with folks, you know, did I. What Iheard you say was most people have been
taught manners and don't immediatelycome in hot and say, Hey, guess what?

(10:16):
You're wrong.
Mm-hmm.
They will just kind ofcatalog that and move on.
Something that simple is powerful.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, absolutely.
And, and that is a mistake that a lot of.
Uh, upstarts make, you know, a lot ofthem, the reason why they're successful
is they're going against the grain and notnecessarily listen to traditional advice.

(10:37):
Uh, uh, and, and, and when I say, uh,actually asking the right people for
their opinion instead of just, uh,dealing with the unsolicited people,
are there no other common mistakes thatyou found working with the business
owners that you all, that you work with?
Other common mistakes besides notasking the right people for advice?

(10:58):
Um, there's, there's an interestingparadigm with this statement.
Everybody wants to do it differently.
And to some extent those thatare the most successful do.
But the fundamentals, if you're aninsurance agent, it's still insurance.

(11:20):
How you approach your customers or howyou handhold or how you meet the different
sales objectives might be differentthan the folks you're familiar with.
But they don't reinvent somethingso different that it's not really
within a templated platform.
So it's, it's always interesting kindof watching those personalities that

(11:41):
I'm gonna take the world by storm,I'm gonna be the next smart Cuban.
Ah, maybe, but last time I checkedthere's only one of those guys.
And statistically, you can't be him too.
Mm-hmm.
It just doesn't work like that.
You've gotta both sides of that.
I think people have that perspective.
Usually do the best.
Mm-hmm.
Young, old, anywhere in between.

(12:03):
I think there's just this common mistakeof I can do it better than the other guy
because, and sometimes maybe you shouldhave done it like them, you should have
just answered the phone one extra time.
You know, everything else in therecipe was right, except for one thing.
That doesn't mean you gottablow up the whole recipe.

(12:25):
Simple, but pretty easy to do.
Oh yeah.
Pretty easy to do, uh, when youhave the right supporting staff.
Uh, so there's something that, uh,that I, uh, so I, I like words, right?
I'm very into words.
And, uh, it's, um, my granddaddy,when I was growing up, he told me.

(12:45):
The difference that you got an idiotand then you got an buil, an idiot.
You know, according to the dictionary,they have the mental capacity up
to the age of zero to three, and anbuil has the mental capacity up to
the age of three to seven, right?
And then when you look up the wordidiot andile, in today's Webster
dictionary, they just simply say.

(13:07):
Stupid, right?
So as I'm thinking about this,I say, well, I wonder what the
origin of the word idiot is, right?
So I look up the origin of the word idiot,and you know, the origin, the definition,
the origin is a private person.
Now really their definition was acomparison between a public citizen, like

(13:29):
somebody in the Senate, uh, uh, and thisis Greek, so like the Roman, and then the
private people, which the government, uh,I don't know if too much has changed, but
they considered the masses idiots, right?
So they called them idiots,but it just as private persons.
But it just graduated to the word.
Stupid.

(13:49):
Right?
And then I said, well, hold up.
So if the origin of the word, uh,idiot is a private person, I wonder
what the origin of the word IMB isbecause, uh, my granddaddy always
told me is this progression, I lookedup the word imbecile and the origin
definition of the word imbecile isa person without supporting staff.

(14:12):
And, and, and what they're sayingis a staff as in a stick, right?
But a, a, a actual staff of employees,you, you utilize them to make things work.
And even if you're talking about a stick,you can use a stick to hit some something.
You can use a stick to support yourself.
You can use a stick toreach something high.

(14:33):
And what I concluded was.
You are an idiot or an ILE if you are aprivate person without supporting staff.
And I'm not even insulting you.
I'm just telling you what theoriginal definition of the word.
So I said all that to say this.
How does a business owner and how shouldthey correlate the legal, the financial,

(14:55):
the insurance is there no perfect wayof bringing all these things together.
I think your analogy rings true and we'regonna thank your grandfather for this one.
'cause I owe him one on, on thisdeal 'cause he is setting this up.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you need folks to help you translateno different than you just did because.

(15:19):
Take legal terms, legal, legal termsof art in, in my industry in estate
planning, health, education, maintenanceand support, that is a, a term of art.
It's four words that mean you aregonna live like you did yesterday.
When people read that they think hospitalor school or maintenance, I mean, what

(15:45):
the heck is maintenance to a person?
Right?
Okay.
Getting my hair cut.
So it, it feels different, but thattranslation process, having somebody
be able to help you kind of crossthat bridge of what is that term
of art or, you know, sometimes.
Just as simple as buying a businessbook that is generic, that can

(16:08):
kind of give you some vocabularyterms that other people are.
I'm gonna make fun of some clients here.
I'm gonna ask you aquestion on the back end.
Yes sir. But a lot of clients calland say, Hey, last year my revenue
was a million dollars and I feel,feel like I paid too much in tax.

(16:28):
And I will say something like,congratulations, you must
not have very many expenses.
They're taken back by it.
What they meant was my netincome, and again, I'm using
terms of art inside of accounting.
Mm-hmm.
But I set this up in the sense of.
They said revenue, which is thenumber before expenses, they min net.

(16:51):
I made a sarcastic remark justto pull out, to figure out the
meaning, and some people laughat me and say, ah, you got me.
You know, really, I was talkingabout other net income in some form.
Others will say something like, Idon't understand what you're talking
about, or Why are you making fun?
I like, I called you to help me.
Like instantly you cantell there's confusion.

(17:12):
Mm-hmm.
So in this scenario, and, and you said ityourself, you're, you're a man of words.
Yes.
You're also very intelligent person who'swilling to do a little bit of homework.
How would you self-help if Isaid something like that to you?
If, how would you figure out what I meant?
If somebody called me and said,uh, I, I, I just paid $200,000 in

(17:35):
taxes, and your question is whatwould be my response to that?
Yeah.
Hmm.
I'm, I'm trying to think.
I. Because the way that I usually, uh,uh, and just so you know, the, the way
my business model works is usually, uh, Icome in through, just like you said, uh,

(17:58):
I I, it sounds like your business modelof educating people on estate planning.
What I've discovered is if you, ifyour introduction to somebody is
about, uh, money, they get defensive.
If your introduction to them is aboutsetting up their, uh, uh, doing their
estate plan and helping them, gettingeverything organized, they're open

(18:21):
and the benefit is you've helpedthem, uh, set up their foundation.
Uh, that's, that, that'stheir immediate payoff.
And the immediate payoff forsomebody like me who helps people
with bus, you know, the exitplanning and the retirement is now.
I, I was able to collect the informationthat I need in order to put together
the best strategies possible for you.

(18:43):
Right?
So it usually, I don't have thatconversation of I paid this much in taxes.
Usually people don't under, theydon't even realize the amount that
they're paying is unreasonable.
So usually I'm the one that's.
Uh, making that.
But if somebody were to come to me, andthat's how they introduce, uh, themselves,
like, Hey, uh, good to meet you, Randolph.

(19:03):
I paid over $200,000 in taxes.
Uh, my, my immediate action, uh, uh,question would be for what reason?
And, and how.
And so tell me what you do.
How do you do it?
Uh, and, and then I'll go from there.
Uh, but yeah, it sounds likemaybe your response might be
better, uh, your response.

(19:24):
Uh.
It, it's kind of like a,it confuses them initially.
It, it, it, it, it almost congratulate'cause paying 200,000 in taxes is
what I call a good problem, right?
There are all types of problems.
Assuming you've got theinfrastructure to absorb it.
Yeah,

(19:45):
go ahead.
Oh, sorry.
Where, where I, where I wasgoing with this is your, your
approach is education Most.
Yes.
Which, which is I think whata lot of planners try to do.
Obviously I'm, I'm playing a little bit ofa game because I'm trying to extract data.
From the nonverbal, from the thebehavioral, which you heard me say.

(20:05):
Like, Hey, okay, congratulations.
Most people don't get that answer.
Yeah.
I'm not doing anything fundamentallydifferent than you are.
I'm just doing it with a different tact.
Mm. And I am bluntsometimes when I need to be.
Obviously money and emotion are attached.
At the hip they are the same thing.
And if you think otherwise, you're nuts.

(20:26):
But you can go through theseprocesses and usually I get folks
that are voicing the pain point.
And the reason I kind of set it upthis way is you, you alluded to that.
Most that are in a scenariothat are, that have that kind of
payment to make, probably don'teven know that they paid it.
It's just part of the process wherepeople get frustrated is, I didn't

(20:51):
withhold enough, I didn't plan for it.
Oh my gosh.
There's this surprise.
So sometimes just the timing ofwriting the check is the difference
between success and failure.
Mm-hmm.
It's not that we impacted tax, it'sthat we built it into the cashflow plan.
Which all assumes a biggerinfrastructure, but we've, we've both

(21:13):
led the, led the audience througha little bit of a journey here.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I'm just generic rhetorical questionto the audience and then we can kind of
transition wherever you want to go here.
But if somebody came to you andsaid, you've got a surprise tax
bill, what's that threshold thatwould make you uncomfortable?
Hmm.
Do you actually know that answer?
I. Because if you don't, you probablyneed to spend some time diving in

(21:38):
and understanding what's there.
Because I asked my clients thatand some of 'em will be like, oh my
gosh, if I have to write a write acheck at all, I'm gonna freak out.
I don't wanna explain to my wife whywe had to write a check in April.
Mm-hmm.
Why you don't wanna overpay do youwould really getting a big giant,
like I can control through ourtax planning, how much of a refund

(21:59):
or how much of a payment you get.
Wait, you can.
That's the aha moment we're looking for.
So again, back to the audience,what's that number for you?
It's a, it's a tough question to ask offolks, but where's that pain threshold?
Oh yeah.
And, and that actually brings me to mynext question for you, because you said

(22:20):
something that's very, very important.
You said planning.
Mm-hmm.
Is there no way for a business ownerto future proof their tax and legal
strategy and in other words, planaccordingly to where they're not

(22:40):
calling, uh, somebody like me to say,I just got a surprise, 200 grand.
Nah, because they work with Papin.
Christopher Papin, Chris Papin, they,uh, they, they, it, it didn't even arise.
Is there no way to future proof.
There.
There absolutely, absolutely is.
With the caveat of my crystal ballis broken, I cannot predict the

(23:01):
future any better than anybody else.
So you do it based off of trends.
You do it based off of educated guesses.
You set a template in place based on aset of assumptions, and most business
owners that I work with, sophisticatedor not know their industry well enough

(23:21):
to know that there's a bump in the road.
Or, you know, I, I think of a painterI worked with years ago, and he
always advertised when he was busiestand he never got through his head.
He needs to advertiseright before he's slow.
So his chief complaint was, I, Iadvertise, I get all these phone calls,

(23:42):
but by the time I call somebody back,they've already hired somebody else.
And it's just a subtle shift,but that's that forward looking.
He just needed somebody to sit next to himand say, Hey, advertise at the end of the
summer, not in the middle of the summer.
That's when you'll start to get thecalls, and as you're kind of going
into your colder, slower seasons, youcan queue up the indoor painting jobs

(24:06):
instead of the outdoor painting jobs.
But it's, it's no different forfinancial planning or anything else.
Are the assumptions good if they're not?
Do you have a meeting cadence or do youhave somebody who is kind of on call?
A lot of our clients, we don'tnecessarily meet every month,
but we have standing orders.
If one side or the other suspectsomething is out of bounds, we

(24:28):
should be able to meet within 30days to be able to adapt to it.
Somebody gets sick.
Somebody gets fired.
Um, I don't know.
God forbid COVID happens again.
You know all of that stuff.
If your business is shut downfor four months, guess what
your financial projections are.
That's where you adapt and overcomeand build a new set of assumptions.

(24:48):
It seems pretty easy.
It's really hard becausewe're all guessing.
I mean, I'm, I'm sure you've, you'vebeen in, uh, planning and budgeting
scenarios where, where folks aresaying, well, I don't really know
how to determine this number.
Right?
Oh, yeah.
It's because, you know, every, all truthsto parallel is something that's, uh,
that, that's a common trend in my life.

(25:09):
And, uh.
Of course IQ test.
The higher the eye your IQ is, is yourability to recognize patterns, which yeah,
that should let you know that everythingis the same in a manner of speaking.
Uh, I know, uh, I, I heard this storyonce that there were two young fish just
floating in the water and this old fishjust came swimming along and the old fish

(25:33):
looked at the young fish and he says.
How you doing, fellas?
The water's fine today, isn't it?
And then he just kept right onswimming and the two young fish
looked at each other and theysaid, what the hell is water?
Right?
They've been in water their entirelives, but they had no idea they were
in water until the seasoned advisorinformed them that they were in water.

(25:58):
And now that they justlearned that they're in water,
they can act accordingly.
Uh, I think a lot of people in ourindustry doesn't, don't realize that you
have traditionalists and then you havemultidisciplinary, uh, practitioners.
Is there no difference betweenworking with a traditional CPA
or attorney versus working withsomebody that's multidisciplinary?

(26:22):
Uh, other than letting people know that,metaphorically speaking, they're in
water and to move accordingly, I. Yeah.
The, the, the way I like to phrase it tomy clients is there are tax preparation
places, compliance based shops, and thoseare more of your traditional type models.
Mm-hmm.
And then you've got more progressivefirms that are trying to be forward

(26:42):
looking and trying to help clientsanticipate what's coming at them.
I'm gonna at least try to describewhat water is to my clients,
whether or not they figure itout or not is on their clients.
But to call like an h and r block, forexample, and expect a forward-looking
service when really they're just in,I say they're just, they, they have

(27:05):
some other forward-looking servicestoo, to do them justice, but mm-hmm.
Typically it's, Hey, I'm filing my return.
And a lot of people look at it as that.
A lot of legal compliance, um, you know,insurance audits, you know, if you've
got workers' comp or something like that,everybody gets all bent outta shape.
Oh my gosh, I gotta jump through all thesehoops just so I can pay a bigger premium.

(27:26):
No, not really.
I. It's going through those paces thatactually help hold your premium down.
It's the people that createall of the risk and don't tell
the insurance company about it.
And then the insurance companyis defending that lawsuit.
That's when your insurance goes up.
That's the stuff youshould be frustrated with.
But I don't think folks see it likethat because it's a, a tick box.

(27:49):
It's not a revenue generator, it'sa something else I gotta do that I
don't know anything about or care.
So I think finding that balance, becauseI don't want my clients to be tax experts.
I don't need 'em to be, they're alreadyan expert in their industry, but they
do need to know, here's how our returnworks, here's why we need to do the
planning that we're doing, and here'swhy you call me in July of 2025 to do tax

(28:13):
planning, not January of 2026, becauseI don't have a time machine either.
My crystal ball and mytime machine are broken.
Brother, I know what to.
But it's hard.
It's hard in that instance because peopledon't always have the perspective of
what tools do you need when you're, whenyou're going down these different paths,

(28:35):
and oftentimes just candidly, one of thefirst questions we ask people are, what
are, what are your goals and objectives?
And I think sometimes we getlost in, my kids got a something
and then they got sick.
And on the way home from soccerpractice, I gotta get dinner and life
is playing there and we forget whatour objective is for our business day.

(28:59):
When in fact, a lot of the folks thatI bet you talked to in the mastermind
groups are getting closer and closerand closer to an exit plan that they've
envisioned for a long time, but neververbalized and never took steps to build.
Mm-hmm.
They knew they wanted it.
What did you do on a Tuesday in 2015 tobuild to that exit on a Thursday in 2025?

(29:25):
Hmm.
That's a, that's a fair question to askof folks and I, I don't think they know
how, and that's where strategic partnersalong the way, guys like you and I can
help develop that thought process out,or at least give people some action
items so that they can empower themselvesto achieve whatever that objective is.
Oh yeah.
Uh, Napoleon Hill calls it drift.

(29:47):
If you aim at nothing, youhit it every time, right?
Yep.
And, uh, a lot of drifters, uh, asNapoleon Hill describe it, aren't
typically, uh, business owners,but there is a level of drifting
where you are a business owner.
And then you revert backto that drift mentality.
Uh, and yes, you don'trealize that you're drifting.

(30:10):
You don't realize that you're in wateruntil somebody explains it to you.
So, uh, it, so is it, is it agood idea or is it not a good idea
to bring all this in one house?
Right.
Should, should you have your accounting,your legal, uh, and, and your
insurance vice all under one roof?
I, I would argue from a small businessesstandpoint, it is powerful to have

(30:34):
folks like this because it's one meetingrather than trying to get the attorneys
who's busy schedule to figure out whatthe CPA a, what their busy schedule is
and jump through all of those hoops.
Um, obviously that's advocatingfor me and folks like me.
Um, oh yeah, you're not biased at all.

(30:55):
But, but here's the catch.
I've been just the attorney or I'vebeen just the CPA for folks and mm-hmm.
In some instances, and I'm gonnapick on both professions equally.
I usually like to rip onattorneys 'cause everybody does.
But attorneys will do the planningand then hand it off and tell the
CPA, this is how you should reportit, with no perspective whatsoever at

(31:17):
all about what goes on a tax return.
Or a CPA will frame out the numbers andhand it off to an attorney and say, here's
how the profit share plan would work withno perspective whatsoever at all about the
risks that they're creating, the potentialliabilities they're creating, because
we didn't address all of the issues.

(31:38):
So this is where bringing both disciplinesand bringing folks together so.
The client can first understandand then prioritize what they're
willing to accept and not.
I have certain clients who arewilling to accept certain risks.
Litigation is not one of them for most.
I have certain attorneys who arelitigators and they'll say, oh,

(32:01):
we'll get it dismissed at lawsuit.
But if the client is never willingto get sued, why are we even having
a conversation about the lawsuit?
Hmm.
So those are the things where, whereI can see a lot of power in bringing
these disciplines together, havingkind of a consolidated thought process.
And so everybody's clear.
I am not the expert at everything.

(32:23):
The way I pi pitch myself asa, as an attorney is I'm a
paper pusher, I'm a planner.
The minute you go to the courthouse.
We are hiring specialty counsel.
I'll translate what they just saidto you, but no, I'm not gonna go
to the courthouse and litigate.
I can't do all of those things.
But as, as a board member to ourclients, if you will, I have a unique

(32:45):
discipline to sit next to you, shoulderto shoulder and say, Hey, when the
attorney said, when discovery is over.
That could be a six oreight month process.
That's gonna be a document grab, that'sgonna be depositions where you've gotta
get interviewed by the other attorneys.
There's gonna be interrogatories.
There's a whole bunch of steps inthat, not just, Hey, when you finish
filling out this email, I mean,that's the beginning, but there's that

(33:09):
translation process all over again.
So there, there's layers inside of that.
But I think the, the most powerful oneis what resources do you want and need?
If you don't know, I thinkinterviewing folks like go through a
process, interview somebody like me,interview a law firm independently,
interview a CPA firm, interview abunch of different insurance agents.

(33:31):
Um, everybody has a different style.
Everybody has a differentcommunication path.
I tell my clients, I'mnot a good babysitter.
If you were the client that needs38 reminders, there's two paths.
You get one email and we'll never do it.
Or you get one email with automatedreminders until you figure it out.
Those are the two paths.
There's not really anything in betweenbecause some folks just need, Hey,

(33:55):
let me get on the phone with you anddo A, B, and C. That's not my style.
So maybe you want a firm that doesthings like that and, and that's, you
know, a personal question and sometimeshard to know because you don't know
until you've been through the journey.
But part of the journey, embrace it.
Love it.
You can always change.
Yeah.

(34:15):
There's nothing wrong with, Ilike how you describe yourself
as the person's board member.
Uh, and, and some people might say, 'causeyou know, a lot of times, uh, I, I got
a lot of attorney, friends, colleagues,customers, and I've had multiple attorneys
tell me in different, uh, segments, uh,that the reason why they make so much

(34:37):
money is 'cause people hate to read.
The reason, that's what they say.
And if you think about it, the peoplethat you want on your board are the
people who are, who love doing board work.
And when, and when I say bored, Imean B-O-R-E-D and not BOAR because
a lot of it can be very meticulousand it's a lot of information.

(34:59):
And it sounds like what you're sayingis when you're dealing with a, a company
that has all of this under one roof.
You avoid, metaphoricallyspeaking like a game of telephone.
You know that game of telephone whereyou have one person whisper it in the
ear and then the next person whisper itin the other ear and just, just three
people I. That message has completelychanged from that first whisper.

(35:24):
Uh, and it sounds like, uh, whenyou're dealing with a multidiscipline
disciplinary firm that does all ofthis under one roof, the legal, the
accounting, the insurance informationmoves at the speed of light and it,
it, it, it reduces the chances ofthings getting lost in translation.

(35:45):
Let's be clear, I'm an attorney.
Nothing moves at the speed of light.
Hey, that's, I'm perfect fun at all.
The guys, right?
Attorneys always take too long.
There's always a problem.
But yes, you're right.
I do think consolidatingit helps that pace.
Um mm-hmm.
You know, it is, is theanalogy on the telephone game.

(36:06):
Mm-hmm.
If I call the client and say the sky isblue and the client calls back and says,
Hey, let's talk about that guy that is.
What we're talking about, the sky,not a guy, but there's the, there's
the dysfunction of the telephone game.
Mm-hmm.
So it's important that you get theright people on the right page.

(36:26):
You know, there's, there's,uh, gosh, what's the book?
The right people on the right, onthe, the right people on the right
seats, on the right bus correction.
There we go.
Traction.
That's what I'm trying to think of.
That is incredibly powerful.
You don't need somebody to doa deep dive on a document that
is an inconsequential document.
Like, I don't need to review everybody'sclick bait terms of service wrappers.

(36:49):
Who cares?
You're either using you'reemail service or you're not.
And to put this in a, in a, in alight that I think will, will hit
the, the listeners correctly is weget the question all the time about,
Hey, this lease is due by Friday.
Can you read it and tell me?

(37:09):
It's good.
And my typical response you guys havefigured out there's a little sarcasm in
Papa's world is how about I don't read it?
You sign it and assume it's good.
Mm. And everybody's like, whatthe heck are you talking about?
We need you to read this.
What if there's somethinghidden in there that's wrong?
And I was like, that is notwhat you requested of me.
You didn't tell me to read itand point out the issues you told

(37:30):
me to read it and say it's good.
I am not willing to take on the risk.
I will read it, but I don'tknow what the result will be.
Mm.
Subtle but important, and the clientdoesn't even know they're doing it.
They're just wanting toget it done by Friday.
And you said in the beginning?
Mm-hmm.
People don't like to read.
What if.

(37:51):
It's not getting done by Friday.
There's gonna be revisions back and forth.
And therein lies my joke about,yeah, attorneys taking too long.
So yeah.
What do you actually worry about in there?
I've got a lot of clients thatI've worked with a lot of years.
They don't need me toread the whole document.
They'll read it and say, weknow, I want you to focus on
Article seven, nine, and 14.
Can you narrow your scope to thatbecause we gotta get it done by Friday.

(38:13):
So a difference between an informedconsumer asking their partner doing to
do something, as opposed to somebodythat's like never done a lease before.
Well, if you've never done a leasebefore, why are we signing it by Friday?
That's a bad recipe.
Straight outta.
Oh yeah.
Absolutely you setting up anunnecessary sense of urgency.

(38:34):
And, uh, yeah.
When it comes to, there's a reasonwhy marketers set up sense of urgency.
You, you, you want, you want somebodyto make a decision instantly so they
don't have time to think about it.
And, you know, sometimes it's a goodthing and sometimes it's a bad thing,
but especially when you're dealing withlong term lease, a lot of times with
business owners is at least five years.
A lot of times, uh, you, you wannamake sure you sign the right thing.

(38:55):
And so that actually leadsme to my next question.
How should business owners think about,uh, advice versus compliance services?
Is there a difference?
And if so, how should theythink about these things?
So I like to think about theselike layers on a sandwich.
So you've got your bread, and that'skind of the compliance based stuff.

(39:18):
Every sandwich is more or less made ofsome sort of bread or wrapper or whatever.
It's.
You know, just, let's just pick a, atypical, you know, sub sandwich type deal.
Mm-hmm.
What's in the middle matters, andthat's where it's gonna change.
Industry client.
Uh, personal preference.
You know, are we using ham?

(39:39):
Are we using spiced ham?
We using capa It, it,the vocab may change.
The countries may change, but end ofthe day it's still a port based product.
So when you think through this lens,the compliance pieces are kind of
the white bread components of it,or the wheat bread components of

(40:00):
it, or the rye bread components ofit, however you want that to land.
Almost everybody understandswhat bread is almost under.
Everybody understands what ham is.
I couldn't do it, but what isthe Arabic equivalent of ham?
I had no idea.
But yeah, perhaps that's notpermitted in, in, uh, based on

(40:20):
different dietary restrictions, right?
Religious beliefs that matters,
matters.
And that's the stuff in the middle,and that's where the planning kicks in.
So what a lot of business ownersare familiar with are Subway.
You go to Subway, you pick from themenu choices and you go, so they think,

(40:41):
okay, well my business has gotta fitinto a sub subway model for compliance.
And it doesn't.
It can fit whatevermodel you want it to be.
I would strongly encourage thatyou don't create your own custom
'cause it's the most expensive.
You do want to use some of thosetemplated formats that are out there.
You could create your ownaccounting system if you want to.

(41:03):
You could create your ownaccount accounting vocabulary.
It's gonna have to get translatedback to generally accepted accounting
principles, gap or tax on a return.
So maybe just start with thegenerally accepted principles.
So therein lies kind of that, that,okay, now we got the ham figured out.
It can be your flavor.

(41:25):
What about the lettuce?
What about the dressings?
What about the other else?
These are your other componentsthat you can kind of.
Layer in there.
So businesses that are growing,businesses that might sell businesses
that, uh, are in highly regulatedindustries, a lot of professional
services carry a license over the top.
They need those compliance based things.

(41:46):
They are the platform for planning.
Sometimes like a software company and, andone of the things that AI is struggling
with right now is AI is parroting backa lot of good information to folks and
we, and it gives us information faster.
What if it is giving outcopyrighted information?
What if it is giving theoriesthat are written in books?

(42:07):
That's actually someone else'sidea who has exposure there?
And you can start to see that's adifferent dressing on your sandwich,
you probably need copyright attorneys.
Whereas a guy like me that's ageneralist is gonna say, I don't know.
I don't know how thatrecipe comes together.
So you've gotta focus on who youare, kinda what, what are your core

(42:31):
disciplines of your business, and thenwhat are the risks that are out there?
Um, I would argue the licensedprofessions have it easier because
their licensing board has toldthem what they can and cannot do.
The software company on, forexample, sometimes they don't know
they've violated the law until theDepartment of Justice tells them
that they have committed an antitrustact and are subject to penalties.

(42:55):
Mm. All they tried to do isbuild something that consumers
wanted and everybody adopted.
Mm-hmm.
Whether that's fair or not, it'sa whole different conversation,
but that's just the lifecycle ofdifferent types of companies and I
think you gotta know where you are.
Um, I would argue, especially in today'sworld, that the future's changing so fast.
It would be hard not to have astrategic partner next to you that's

(43:18):
paying attention to those changes.
Mm. Because a guy like you that, orlet's pick on me on this one I already
picked on you today, but a guy likeme, I've been in calls all day long.
I barely know what happened in the pressjust because there's a ticker tape.
There could be a firedown the street from me.
I.

(43:38):
I, I'm a business owner too, andthat's the blind spots that you're
gonna want your other advisors kindof feeding info to you to help you
navigate whatever that complianceor planning based hurdle might be.
Oh yeah, as above, so below, andyou got the extremities, the, the
brain is nothing without the eyes.
Without the fingers, yeah.
Without this, the sense of smell, thesense of taste, the sense of touch.

(44:02):
Uh, you need these differentsenses, just like you need these
different advisors and all thesesenses are housed in one body, so.
Why not have these differentadvisors housed under one roof?
Uh, and, and, andthat's, that's very good.
'cause I like how you described it.
Uh, 'cause uh, uh, I'm notgonna, you, we all know bread has

(44:26):
never been undervalued, right?
Uh, there, there, there are whole.
Dietary plans to help peoplestop eating bread, right?
Yeah.
And and what the, the analogy thatyou used, you know, the, the white
wheat, the, the, the white, thewheat, the Italian urban cheese.
That's the industry.
But the, what, what's in the middlematters is what I heard you say.

(44:50):
You gotta hold that industry insidethat bread and, and how big of a bite.
Do you wanna take in this sandwich?
How, how, how much of a riskare you willing to take?
Do you want to take a big bite?
Right.
Uh, do you wanna only have a, justa, a, um, a grilled cheese sandwich
where it's a small bite, but yougot all those senses of flavor?

(45:12):
Or do you want to pay, uh, an absurdamount to take one of those challenges
at that restaurant to where if you.
Finish your sandwich in a certainamount of time, you get the free meal.
Meaning that if you're willing totake more risks, uh, based off of the
knowledge that you receive, uh, are, areyou willing to, uh, potentially risk,

(45:33):
uh, what most people wouldn't for thebigger payout, but being, uh, advised by
somebody such as yourself along the way.
Like, what, what are these,um, these condiments, uh, what
are these, uh, feeling, what,what condiments should I add?
I, I like that analogy.
Uh, Chris.
Thank you.
Every now and then they hithome, but that one's been one

(45:53):
that's, that's carried through.
And I, I also think like when you,when you think through risk, and,
and for business owners, a lotof this boils down to to numbers.
You know, if, if you are a family man orwoman and your spouse is dependent on your
income, you're gonna behave differentlythan if you have generational wealth.

(46:14):
And so what if you burn a hundredthousand dollars in Las Vegas today?
Those are different decisionpoints, and that's completely okay.
You just gotta know the factsyou're working with, what are our
ingredients, what's in front of us,and we'll figure out our sandwich.
Oh yeah.
People like to say knowledge is power.
That isn't true.
Applied knowledge is power.
Uh, I can tell you anything, Chris cantell you anything, but if you don't

(46:36):
apply to knowledge, it means nothing.
Is there no question that I, that Ididn't ask that I should have asked?
Probably you've done a really goodjob with all the questions, but, but
let me throw another one out there.
Just one of these rhetoricalquestions and mm-hmm.
And maybe you can answer and I'llgive an answer and, and somewhere

(46:57):
in there, and hopefully the audiencewill come up with something as well.
But when you think throughbusiness, do you show up every
day with your goal in mind?
That's a good rhetorical question,and I can answer that question.
Uh, I definitely do.
Uh, I have, uh, uh, if you, if youhaven't figured out, I'm, I'm a big

(47:20):
fan of Napoleon Hill, so I have a, a, adefinite chief aim as he refers to it.
And, uh, and like he says,we're all subject to, uh, what
they call hypnotic rhythm.
Uh, either bad or good.
And so, yes, every day I show upwith that definite chief aim in
mind and, and go, uh, from there.

(47:42):
But I know most people don't.
And I think a lot of people that you justposed this question to, they're gonna,
whether you said rhetorical or not,they would've treated it as rhetorical.
They would've changed the subject.
They would, or they wouldn'tanswer the question.
And this would be mychallenge to the audience.
Go write that one down and answer it.
And in, in my case, the, the storyI like to tell is, is the chief

(48:04):
aim might be slightly different.
Day to day, or week to week,but let's, you know, NBA finals
kinda went through recently.
Let, let's think our way through that.
It was a seven game series.
It was a tough series.
Go OKC because I'm inOKC played out for us.
But there were definite points in thatwhere you could watch both teams make

(48:24):
strategic decisions based on a sevengame series, not a one game series.
And that's what I think is importantwith people's intentionality.
I think we show up on a Monday toget to five o'clock and leave when in
reality you should be showing up ona Monday, setting up your Friday, or
setting up your next Monday or settingup your next month, and, and therein

(48:47):
lies that power of intentionality.
By going through there.
So I hope that was a fair randomquestion to ask, but it's just subtle
because if you, if you win gamesix at all costs and you lose game
seven, you still lost the title.
Hmm.
That's tough sometimes and,and I don't think people think

(49:10):
through the intentionality.
We're worried about what's onfire right here, right now, today.
Oh yeah, because when I, when I, when Iheard that analogy of somebody preparing
for game one, instead of all the way outto game seven, I imagined somebody blew,
like, like just comparatively speaking,blowing their lobe, like just, just

(49:32):
busting a gasket on that first game.
And, uh, almost, and, and thenyou, then you can't, just to put
another sports analogy, you can'tmake it to the championship rounds.
Uh, I heard this one, uh, saying onlya mediocre man can perform at their
best a hundred percent of the time.
And, and, and what that meant was,uh, what the person was trying to

(49:53):
say was, you are going to fail.
Things are going to happen.
However, don't think because, uh, you.
Pace because you failed and then youlearn to pace yourself and you're looking
online and see other people seemingly, uh,skipping the, the compliances, seemingly

(50:16):
skipping the, uh, the advised ways to dothings and seemingly getting away with it.
However, and, and, and it might even seemlike every day is perfect for them, uh,
but only once again, only a mediocre manperforms at his best a hundred percent
of the time once you fail, and then onceyou realize you need a supporting staff.

(50:39):
And once you bring on somebodylike, uh, Chris Papin, uh, I think
that's when you say, all right,this isn't just one game series.
This is a seven game series.
I know that maybe the advice thatChris told me isn't the advice that
I preferred to hear, but I understandthat he knows what water is and he's

(51:01):
thinking about game seven and I, andthis is my first time in the, uh,
finals and maybe I should listen to him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny as you, as youillustrate that, I think about
YouTube, TikTok Instagram videos.
Hey, you wanna pay zero on taxes?
Everybody wants to pay zero on taxes.

(51:22):
How you do it matters.
Do you have somethingleft over in the end?
Do you wealth build with yourdecisions for, do you just spend money?
'cause if you make a million andyou spend a million, you owe zero on
tax, but you don't have any money.
Hmm, your your choice.
My sarcastic answer on clients allthe time is Just give it to me.

(51:44):
I'll pay the tax for you.
Let me know how much youwanna pay us in fees.
Nobody's taken me up on thatdeal before because I think they
know my sarcasm by that point.
Amen.
Hey, uh, thank you somuch for the conversation.
Please, once again, tell peoplewho you are, what you do, and
how they can get in touch.

(52:04):
Yeah, Chris Papin, um,Papin, CPA, Papin Law.
Uh, the easiest way is probably LinkedIn.
Look for my name, last name, P-A-P-I-N.
Certainly my firm websites,all kinds of good stuff.
We're always looking to, to reachout to small businesses, business
owners and folks that like tohave these kinds of conversations.
Really appreciate you having me all.
Man, thank you so much for comingand, uh, please feel free to get

(52:26):
back on my agenda at any time.
Man, I, I really enjoyed thisconversation and I like, uh, your
approach of how you help people.
Uh, definitely understanding that everyoneshould have a supporting staff and it's
okay to be a private person, uh, to the.
General public, but you need somepeople that you know, like, and trust,

(52:47):
uh, to where you're not so private.
You need to be open because ifnobody knows what you're dealing
with, nobody can help you.
This has been another episode of TheEntrepreneurs Podcast, A place to hit
real entrepreneurs and business owners.
Bear it all.
I am your host, Randolph Love ii.
I'm so happy to be getting backto doing more of these one-on-one
interviews so I can talk morewith people like Chris Papin.

(53:10):
And so keep it locked.
We're gonna keep doing it.
Uh, once again, the Entrepreneurs Podcast.
See you on the next one.

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90 From Compliance to Strategy: How Smart Business Owners Build Long-Term Success | Christopher Papin

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}90 From Compliance to Strategy: How Smart Business Owners Build Long-Term Success | Christopher Papin