October 6, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, author David W. Berner joins the program to discuss his career in media and how he became an author, as well as the publishing industry and his new release "Garden Tools" (a poetry collection).
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(00:02):
Hello and welcome to the program.
My name is Michael Finney. Today I am joined by David West
Berner. Would you like to say hello,
Sir? Yes, I would.
Hello. Thanks for having me here,
Michael. I appreciate that.
So let's get into a little bit of your background.
(00:22):
You know who you are, where you're from, where you are now,
anything. Well, I, I grew up in
Pennsylvania. I grew up in western
Pennsylvania, southwestern Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh,
just outside of Pittsburgh. I came to the Chicago area in
(00:44):
1988. I'd been in broadcast journalism
in Pittsburgh for a long time after I left college and my
undergrad at least came to Chicago in 88 for a position
here of radio position, which I fully embraced and loved and
glad I came to Chicago, raised my kids here.
(01:05):
It's, you know, I love Chicago and it's really my home now, but
I have a great affinity for Pittsburgh too.
It's a town that, not unlike Detroit, came out of the ashes
and rediscovered itself, reinvented itself, and it's
quite a place. It's not what people think.
It's not its old image. So I come from there.
(01:27):
I have a lot of that. I like to say that I have steel
and oil and coal in my blood from that area and kind of the
sound of the working man sensibility.
And I came here in radio and I worked in radio for a long time,
did radio journalism for a long time, did some stuff for NPR,
did some stuff for CBS Radio. And then started teaching
(01:50):
college and became a full time professor and associate
professor later in life, tenured.
And I did that for 18 years while I still worked in
broadcasting and I still do today a little bit.
But mainly my, my work, my efforts, my energy goes toward
writing. First book was written back in
my, when I was in my 40s and I've written over a dozen books
(02:14):
now. And I, it's not about the
quantity, it's about the quality, I hope.
But I tend to write fast and I think that comes from my
broadcast background. It's like, you know, what have
you done for me lately in the last five minutes Even so I, I
tend to be a fast writer, a veryslow editor, but a fast writer.
And that's what I do now, and that's what I love.
(02:37):
And I've written memoir and fiction and some of it
gratefully has been awarded prizes and recognized in some
way. I appreciate that very much.
Just was at Printers Row Litfestin Chicago the other day.
And it's great to talk to readers who come by and have
either read my books or maybe orbuying another one.
(02:59):
And it's great to talk to them. I've done book clubs before,
which is so much fun when they read my book and I get to be
there. So that's what I do now.
I've got a poetry collection coming out on a later this year
and that's my first poetry collection.
I'm very proud of it and a lot of help pulling that together.
So that's kind of a synopsis of where I am.
(03:21):
I live in the western suburbs, suburbs of Chicago now and I do
a little bit of teaching still for Gotham writers in New York.
I used to teach for Columbia, Columbia College, Chicago, but
no longer. So I hope that gives you at
least a good scenario where I am, where I've been, maybe where
I'm going. Yeah, absolutely.
(03:42):
I want to dive into what I am seeing as a overlap in your
career and that would be very broadly media content creation,
content development and journalism.
(04:04):
Maybe before you start getting into the creative writing thing,
what do you see as exemplifying that over overlap between your
radio career and your writing career, perhaps as a journalist,
but maybe maybe not even that aspect, just the skills it takes
(04:27):
to participate in those things and to be productive.
And you know, you said you're fast writer.
Yeah, it's a good question because it wasn't too long ago
that I tried to. Maybe it was for an interview or
maybe it was for a published interview.
I don't remember what it was for, but I was asked a similar
question a few years ago about that.
(04:48):
And I think what it comes down to is that I have always been a
storyteller and every medium that you can think of, maybe
I've been a part of it. I've, I've written songs, I've
played music, you know, that's aform of storytelling.
I've told news stories, you know, that's a form of
storytelling. I did theatre many, many years
(05:10):
ago. That's a form of storytelling.
I did a very little bit of television, but that was a form
of storytelling. Radio journalism is a form of
storytelling. So it's really about telling
stories. So I think, you know, if at the
end of the day, if somebody gaveme a title, my title would be
Storyteller because that kind ofoverlaps everything that I've
done. And I have to say, both of my
(05:34):
parents gave me a little bit of the jeans for that.
My father was, you know, Irish heritage.
And you know, whether you want to be cliche or not, but the
Irish certainly have a way of, of, of, of telling stories.
And as 111 of my friends says, it's in the tea.
(05:58):
And my dad was a great storyteller.
He was a great joke teller, justa great storyteller.
My mother was a voracious reader.
So I think those kind of jeans kind of melded together a little
bit for me. So to answer your question,
really I think it's just the storytelling aspect.
I love telling stories, whether they be fictional, non
fictional, whether they be in poetry form, lyrical form, you
(06:23):
know, I, I just love that aspectof the, of the really the human
spirit, you know, part of the human nature, our human nature,
human condition is to tell each other stories.
And I think that's probably whatI do best and what I do most and
what I do most prolifically in terms of like different media.
(06:45):
So I hope that answers your question.
I think it did. Yeah, very cool.
We kind of share that varied background of music and and
writing and audio, some video stuff.
I, you know, I'm across the board in the same way
photography and, and what have you not periodical work and, you
(07:08):
know, trying to find how to convert the stories, the
information in between all kindsof different formats.
It's really kind of at the heart, I think of a lot of
people in media. Yeah, I think that's true.
Especially I think you've been especially today, because I
think you have to be versed in in a lot of different.
You know, back in the day, if you were a, you know, a
(07:30):
newspaper journalist, you were anewspaper journalist and that's
all you did. Today.
You've got to be, I think, versed in a lot of different
things because of the way we consume media now.
Way we. Consume content?
Yeah, absolutely. Have you, you know, I don't know
how attentive you are to the landscape, but have you paid
(07:56):
attention to how social media and social networking has
changed journalism or changed how you reach an audience or
anything along those lines? I'm just kind of curious 'cause
you've been at it for a while. Well, I've, I've used social
media for a long time and I haveAI have to say, I have a love
(08:19):
hate relationship with that. There's a part of me that thinks
it's fantastic and it's helpful.And especially as a journalist,
you can connect with the, with people who are your people you
may be wanting to interview or even people who come out of, you
know, are witnesses to something.
They can connect very easily. And that's worked very well for
(08:39):
me. But in terms of my writing, I,
I, I find it to be almost essential in today's work to be
an author or a storyteller in any way because it's a, it's a
way to connect magnificently really in a lot of ways with an
audience. I'd say about a year ago, I
(08:59):
reluctantly went on the TikTok. But the reason I went on the
TikTok is I'd heard many of my author friends who have used it
and I found a really vibrant audience there on terms of
readers and people who love literature.
And, and I was highly surprised at how strong the book reading
(09:25):
community is on TikTok. So I've spent a little time
there. I've still spent a little time
there. And I, I try to, you know, post
on a regular basis. And I think that's important not
only for, you know, the marketing, but just to, you
know, there's a landscape out there that's full of content and
(09:46):
you've got to find a way to breakthrough.
And yes, you can get lost in thesocial media jungle, too.
But I think if you can tell stories behind the stories in a
way, if you can open up a different side of you on social
media that allows people to feelmore connected to you as a
storyteller in the broad sense of that word, I think that's
(10:08):
great. And that has changed
dramatically over the last, what, 1520 years in terms of how
it's used, why you use it, best practices, all those kinds of
things. So I embrace social media.
I think it's important to what Ido, but I also know that you can
(10:29):
get really caught up in it and it can drive it.
It almost becomes the catalyst to everything.
And that I don't want to have happen.
I don't want that to become, youknow, sort of like the only
thing I worry about. But it is a tool and and for the
most part it's a good tool. Yeah, I'd find the same thing.
Great way to connect with readers or ideas.
(10:53):
But at the same time, you know, it can become a massive time
sync. Oh yeah.
And, you know, you gotta, you gotta get stuff out.
You know, you taught in college,you know, the adage there is
publish or perish. But I think the speed of social
media and social networks has kind of brought that same line
(11:15):
of thinking to all media in in areally broad sense that, you
know, you don't want to be late to the conversation.
And also you need to make sure that you're promoting there
early. What are some of your favorite
platforms? I see you're on Instagram,
(11:36):
you're on Tiktok, you know, do you use Facebook?
You know, whatever else. Well, I have two Facebook
accounts. One is for family and friends.
You know, it's really not a public place, but the my, my
other Facebook page, David Berner, David W Berner Writer,
is open to everybody. It's public and I use it
regularly. I mean, I would say I probably
(11:57):
use Instagram more often than anything else, but I have been
relatively active over the last 8-9 months on TikTok, even
though I was reluctant. But I did find a a wonderful
supportive literary community onthere, which surprised me a
little bit, But I was happy to find that all that was good.
(12:21):
And I would say, you know, do I have a favorite social media?
I don't know if I have a favorite, but I would say it
probably leaned toward Instagrammore than they do anything else.
That's where I, I think I probably posted the most, but
it's probably not that much morethan Facebook or TikTok.
And sometimes I'll post similar things on, you know, all three
of the platforms 'cause I find that the audiences, the sort of
(12:46):
users of the, each one of those platforms is slightly different.
They're they're they're sort of demographic and socio economic
backgrounds and everything are all like to be slightly
different, homogenized and somewhat but slightly different.
Yeah. You know, I guess the unifying
factor is you and them being interested in your work.
(13:07):
But kind of going back to what we were talking about before and
the idea of making media that translates across all kinds of
different channels and types, Itsort of holds that same line of
thinking for something like Instagram where you know, it
traditionally it was pictures, it's more video now.
(13:29):
Facebook again, you know, started with more words and
blurbs, kind of got into pictures, started to get into
video. Where you have Tiktok now is
really about short form video. And you know, some of the other
platforms are adopting that. But it really, I would say in
the same way that Snapchat did put that kind of like up front
(13:52):
and made it its primary feature out of the gate.
Yep, Yeah, That's very true. Yeah, I and I, I think, you
know, I mean, how many times, you know, what best practices
will tell you if you can get a, a photograph that's moving, a
video on any of those platforms,they're more likely to be
spotted or paid attention to. It's probably just the human
(14:15):
condition, you know, where, where we, the dog barks at the,
you know, the running jogger or the guy on a bike more than he
does if somebody standing still.So I, I just think that that's
part of what we do. So I try to do that.
I try to post things where I might be talking about something
I'm working on or if I'm. Barking at a cyclist passing by
(14:40):
anything, Yeah. We had the galleys for my poetry
collection arrived the other day.
So I was going through those andI just did a little video about,
you know, that process. So those kinds of things.
And I try to do stuff that wouldn't be normally offered or,
you know, available to a reader to show them kind of behind the
(15:00):
scenes stuff. We got to give them some kind of
value to coming to those social media sites.
So I, I, I just try to do it a little differently.
I don't know if that's a little differently, but that's kind of
the best practice to me. Let's hear about influences.
Now you've worked in fiction andnon fiction.
So, you know, we think about maybe some of the folks going
(15:23):
way back, You know, Orwell worked in fiction and non
fiction. Hemingway worked in fiction and
non fiction, A Hunter Thompson worked in fiction and non
fiction. Who were some of the people that
influenced you? Doesn't necessarily have to be
anybody that worked in both of those sides of writing, but it
could be radio personalities, media personalities, writers for
(15:47):
whatever you know, works that you're interested in in drawing
a line to. I, I think that there's a lot of
people who have influenced me ormade me at least think about
some way of storytelling or maybe a particular mood or
something like that. There's a lot of people and I, I
would probably start because my first love really was music when
(16:11):
I was a teenager. And there's no question in my
mind that the lyricist of that era when I was growing up, so
that the Bob Dylan's, the Joni Mitchell's, those people have
made an impact on me and still do to this day.
And if there are musicians now that are influencing me, I would
say Jason Isbell is 1. It's the people who tend to be
(16:35):
iron and Wine Sambi, people who are more lyrically oriented.
You know, the lyrics mean a lot.I heard a song, brand new song
from Brandi Carlile the other day that just blew me away.
I mean, it was absolutely a stunning piece of work.
And it was mostly about the lyrics.
So those things have influenced me and they still do to this
(16:55):
day. You know, writers, I'm kind of
all over the place with a lot ofthat.
I mean, my writing tends to be it comes from, you know, a basis
of broadcast style, I think, which is sort of like simple and
direct. And that's very much a Hemingway
thing. But I also, so there's some
(17:16):
influence there. I think there's also influence
from people like Kerouac, you know, pushing the boundaries a
little bit or playing with language a little more.
Maybe there's a little bit of that in there.
One of my absolutely favorite artists of all time in in across
(17:37):
different platforms is Patti Smith.
You know, she's a poet, she's a musician, she's a world renowned
author. You know, the, the memoir just
kid. This is magnificent.
I, I find her to be an artist artist and I, I respect that.
(17:59):
I really do. So it's hard to say, oh, this
is, you know, my, my artistic muse.
You know, one or two people. There's a lot of them.
I'm looking at a bookshelf rightin front of me right now and I
see a book from, you know, Sam Shepard and one from a Norwegian
writer who I love, Per Peterson.Fantastic writers.
(18:22):
And so I get a little bit from all of them.
Yeah, I think that's kind of thecritical thing when you're
trying to be creative, when you're trying to dial into the
muse, is to say, you know, yes, I have these things that speak
to me, but also these messages that I want to deliver.
I have to find the best ways of expressing them and packaging
(18:47):
them. Sometimes it is through a song,
sometimes it's through an image,sometimes it's through words,
whether they are prose or poetic.
And it's all right to mix those things together.
You know, we're like I said before, we're we're in a very
similar boat. You know, I've, I've done a
handful of book projects and, and video fiction and non
(19:11):
fiction and made music for some of this stuff.
And I, I would be as pressed as you are to dial in on
influences. I would say I would have to be
like, you know, this project wasinfluenced by XY and Z.
Yeah, that's a good way to. Put it you know, I I couldn't
speak across the board and say all of my work was influenced by
(19:35):
one writer or another. Right.
Yeah, I think that's that. I think that's a good way to put
it. And it depends on the project or
the particular thing I'm workingon, I think.
But, you know, I, I, I can get influences from everywhere.
I can hear a lyric from a song from an artist I don't know.
And I'd be like, you know, shattered by it and.
And somehow will find a way to incorporate whatever that
(19:57):
feeling is or that emotion that was brought forth from that into
my work somehow. I mean, you know, I've, I've had
reviewers, at least my publishing work have called me
contemplative, poetic prose, things of that sort.
(20:17):
So I I'm not a. I'm not a flash bang kind of
guy. I'm not a mystery writer.
I'm not a suspense writer. That's not what I do.
I have had people say to me, youshould write a really good, you
know, mystery novel. And I said I can't write a
mystery novel. I would be terrible at it.
(20:37):
It's just not my. It's not my, it's not what I do,
you know, but what I do, I thinkI do pretty well.
So I'm going to try to stay in my lane a little bit in terms of
that. But, you know, I broke out of
the lane a little bit when I started writing poetry and I got
some pieces published and then the poetry book came about.
(20:59):
So, you know, I, I will continueto, to, to, to stretch, but I
also know what I do well and what I don't do well.
So I'm very aware of that. Let's talk about your catalog,
maybe back catalog first before we get into the to the poetry
book. You know what has been
(21:20):
surprisingly successful or maybewhat has been, you know,
personal favorites of yours to work on or surprises.
You know that you, you discovered you really enjoyed
and maybe at the beginning of it, it, it was just like an idea
and all of a sudden it kind of cascaded into something that you
(21:41):
were became really passionate about.
Yeah, well, I never expected to write my first book.
I didn't plan to write a book about my experience.
And my first book is a memoir. I took some time off between my
college. I'm sorry, between my broadcast
journalism career and going to full time work at the college,
and I taught at a high school inoutside of Chicago, kind of a
(22:05):
depressed area. I don't want to call the high
school in any way, you know, a dangerous place, but it was a
troubled school. Then I taught there for a year.
And when I would come home and I'd tell my kids about
experiences I'd had, they asked me, Daddy, you're writing this
down. And I was embarrassed to say
that I wasn't. So I, I went back and I started
(22:26):
to kind of kept, kept notes and it became my first book.
And at the time that I was doingthat, you know, I was in love
with that book. I was in love with the writing
of it. I was in love with shaping it
and finding the best way to tellit.
But then the next book came and I fell in love with that book.
So, you know, to answer your question about a favorite, it's
the one I'm writing at that moment.
(22:47):
You know, it's the one I'm pushing at the moment.
It's the one I'm I'm, you know, with at the time, you know, sort
of like love the one you're with.
It's I like all of my work. I think all my work has merit,
but you know, I fall in love with the one that I'm working
on. So there's that.
You know, the first piece of fiction that I wrote in terms of
(23:10):
a full length manuscript, I kindof wrote it backward, meaning I
knew exactly what the ending wasgoing to be.
I had AI had a picture in my head of what I wanted the ending
to be. And I kind of thought about how
am I going to get there? I don't use outlines.
I'm a seat of the pants guy. I think the story is already
(23:31):
there in many ways. You just got to dig through the
dirt and the Moss and the mess to find it.
And that's kind of what I do. And sometimes when I'm writing,
I surprise myself, but where it's going.
And that's kind of fun. You know, that's, that's sort of
the beauty of it a lot of ways. And it's the antithesis of, of,
of journalism because you're working with facts and you're
working with, you know, a particular way that you want to
(23:53):
say something in particular style.
But when you're writing either memoir or fiction, you know, you
can pick and choose what, what you want to focus on.
So, yeah, I have, I have a fair amount of books and I, and I'm,
you know, over a dozen now. Some, you know, some of them are
memoirs, some of them are fiction.
Some of them, I've had a couple novellas.
(24:15):
The Islander is probably one that's been awarded the most or
at least acknowledged the most interesting project by this
publisher, Outcast Outpost, rather Outpost 19 in San
Francisco, smaller publisher that started this this
initiative called the shortest Project.
(24:38):
And they were only going to workwith novellas for this
particular imprint, which is highly unusual in the publishing
world right now because most publishers shun novellas because
they think nobody wants to read something it's only 150 pages
and spend $15. Well, that may be true, but we
are becoming shorter and shorterwith our attention spans and we
(25:00):
I don't see why people wouldn't love short books.
So that never made any sense to me, but my, my, my note that is
a novella, which I, I really love that book.
And I think that book has gottena lot of a lot of praise.
So there's that. I have, you know, I have some
other fiction that's, you know, a typical length fiction, 75,000
(25:23):
words kind of thing. But, you know, picking a
favorite is a tough one. It's like it's usually the one
I'm working on at the moment andI don't know where ideas come
from in terms of fiction. I think sometimes I've, I've
read a news story that sparked something and made me think
(25:43):
about something in a different way.
You know, you know, one of my memoirs, you know, is about 3
days. It's about 3 days in time.
So you know, it's, I've taken different approaches.
I think if you read all my work,though, it would have a similar
thread, meaning it's probably, you know, contemplative.
(26:06):
There's a lot of father, son relationship stories throughout
my work. Yeah, a lot of family oriented
things. I want to say I've not written
a, you know, a family epic saga kind of thing.
That's probably not me. But the connection between, you
(26:27):
know, the human condition between fathers and sons
families, I would say is a is a pretty strong theme.
And all of this stuff, even in the poetry collection, nature is
a big deal in a lot of the stuff.
The artistic process is a big part of it.
(26:49):
But you know, it's not like, youknow, Scott Tarot, who writes
basically everything out of the courtroom, right?
I don't, I don't have that kind of my, my stuff is a little all
over the place, but it has the the similarity of sort of my
contemplative style. I think that's what kind of
(27:11):
links them all together. I hope that answered your
question. Yeah, absolutely.
Let's turn to Garden Tools, the poetry collection you are
releasing this fall. Yes, I, I think it's going to
come out a a little after this episode goes live.
But where did it start? Was there a kind of topical
(27:33):
theme? You know, you've titled it
Garden Tools. You mentioned liking nature.
Tell us more. Yeah, so I had written, I
occasionally had written a poem here or there and sometimes I
did it only to just like stretchthe riety muscles, you know, it
wasn't meant to be published. I have a couple of typewriters
(27:55):
in my little writing shed and I use those sometimes the type
poems that my poems tend to be relatively short.
And I it just was an exercise. It was a kind of a meditative
exercise, a meditative writing exercise.
And then I, you know, Long storyshort, I had a couple published
and I kept thinking, well, maybeI maybe I should play around
(28:16):
with this a little bit more. So I did.
And I tried to write a poem a day for a while.
A lot of it was garbage, you know, but some of it was, you
know, not bad. And I started keeping a
collection and pulling it together.
And then I start thinking, well,maybe there's something to this.
So I reached out to a couple of friends of mine who are poets,
(28:37):
very good ones. And I had them, hey, look at
this manuscript and tell me whether you think this is, you
know, worthy of anything. And they were very helpful.
They're very encouraging. A couple of notes here or there
was very helpful for me, but I felt like I had something and so
I thought, well, maybe it is time to try this.
So I began to shop it out there.I used to have an agent.
(29:01):
I don't have an agent anymore. I found in today's world, if
you're trying to write commercial fiction, that's
probably a good idea to have an agent.
But if you're writing literary fiction or poetry or something
of that sort, agents don't, they're not, they don't do you a
whole hell of a lot of good. I'll be very honest with you.
(29:22):
Because they're not connected tothe publishers that want that
kind of work. They're connected to the
commercial publishers because they want to make their money.
I understand. So I was the one who, you know,
went out to the publishers and started shopping it around, got
a publisher and they seem to like it.
And Finishing Line Press is a, awell known poetry publisher.
(29:46):
It's a medium sized publishing company.
They, they tend to be very supportive and they do nothing
but poetry, which is a hard sellin itself sometimes.
But I, I felt like I had something.
And so, you know, you mentioned about the theme of it, that sort
of thing. Well, the name came from
(30:08):
something my wife. My wife was a very avid gardener
and a very good one. She, she said, you know, you got
to have the garden tools to, to create your garden.
And I thought, well, that's a metaphor.
You know, your garden is your life.
You know, the tools that you need to, to, to make a beautiful
(30:29):
life. And that's kind of where it came
from. So the if there's a thread
through the work, it's in three sections, land, landscape, love
and longing. And each one of those sections
has poems that are kind of linked to those phrases.
But it's really about tending toyour life, tending to the garden
(30:51):
that you're living. And that's kind of the theme.
So there are, there are poems inthis collection that are about
nature, that are about gardens, that are about family, that are
about dogs, that are about landscapes.
It's just about being present inthe world and, and making the
(31:15):
best of your garden, you know, in terms of your life.
And that's kind of what it, whatthe theme is through this.
And I, and I really, I didn't know what that was until I
started playing around with all the, the poems that I had and I
started finding a sort of threadthat was there.
(31:35):
I didn't pick a thread and then try to work poems into that
thread. I, the thread came out of the
poems. So there's 50 some poems in
there and most of them are fairly short, maybe 4 stanzas at
best, four or five stanzas. 1 isa little bit longer.
(31:56):
And, you know, I'm, it's a journey that I went on to do
this. And I kind of surprised myself.
I didn't, I didn't know that I would be able to, to make this
work. And I've gotten a lot of praise
for him. I had some other poems published
since then. And I'm working on a second
(32:16):
collection right now. So that's going to be a while.
But yeah, it's, it's been, it's been a, it's been a great
exercise not only for me, but just, you know, that sort of
literary exercise to sort of play with words and, and think
of things a little differently. So it's been a lot of fun.
You have another book slated forrelease next year, American
(32:38):
Moon. I assume that it is still maybe
a little in progress. Maybe you're in editing or or
anything like that. Just briefly, what should people
expect from that novella? Yeah, so we just finished up the
editing with my editor at Regal House Publishing.
I'm looking for probably in the next couple of months, maybe get
(33:03):
a cover design that'll be sent, and then we go into some
marketing issues. So the book is called American
Moon. It's a novella again.
I'm lucky enough to get a novella published this I won the
prize from the publishing house for literary novellas, which I
(33:25):
was pleased with. And with that prize came the the
publication. So I'm happy to be a Regal House
is wonderful. They're sharp and attentive and
supportive and well organized. They're very helpful.
So the story, it's called American Moon because it's about
(33:48):
sort of the, the rise and, and, and, and the fall in a lot of
ways. So the, you know, the, the moon
set and the moon rise of sort ofthe American dream.
It's like, and it's based off a story of a young man who is
(34:11):
travelling across the country and stays overnight in a motel,
kind of A roadside motel. And Long story short, discovers
a infant in the room next to himalone, crying.
And from there, he discovers themother and he discovers her
(34:32):
issues, of which she has many. And they both kind of set off in
a way together to sort of see ifthe American dream is still out
there, both carrying their own demons in a way.
And so it's a bit of a road tripstory.
(34:52):
It's a bit of a story about modern day America, the rise of
Donald Trump, the rise of the opioid crisis, the rise of
poverty, you know, is the American dream still alive?
But it's told through the story of these two people and their
(35:17):
their want to find something that that is good for them, good
for their lives. The the, you know, what they
would consider their American dream.
So that's the story. And, you know, I'm not sure.
(35:38):
The only way this book came about was I had this idea.
I read about a story or read a news story many years ago about
someone who had found an infant,you know, like on the doorstep
or something. And it just struck me.
It's like, well, what, you know,what do you do when that
happens? And how do you, how do you live
with that? How do you, how does that sit
with you? You know, how does that affect
(36:00):
you? And I started playing around
with it and the story came to life and it just, it just really
came out. I mean, it's just like, wow,
it's just all there. Just a matter of sitting in
front of the keyboard and getting it out.
So that's that's what that story's about.
And I'm really, I'm really looking forward to this book
(36:21):
coming out. You know, like I said, I'm in
love with the one that I'm currently working on.
It's kind of like that. But yeah, it's, you know,
publishing sometimes is a long process.
I mean, I won that award from them, what, a year and a half
ago. So we're really just getting
into the publishing of the really the works of the
publishing now. So it takes some time, sometime,
(36:41):
but I'm looking forward to it, yeah.
Are there any final thoughts that you have or things that you
haven't said that you feel that need to be said about your work,
your career, your books? You know, first of all, I would
say anybody who, because I work with students all the time, work
with young writers and older writers who are trying to write
(37:03):
something. If you are in a creative world
and, and you know, I'm a big believer in in the music
producer Rick Rubin's words about just create for yourself,
do it for you. If there's an audience there or
if someone's going to like it, you're going to connect more
that audience. If you do something for you,
(37:24):
consider the human spirit, consider the human condition,
but as a creator, make sure you do it for you first.
I don't write for an audience. I don't write to an audience.
I know some people do and that'sfine if that's how they want to
work. But I, I write a story that I
want to read and then I just hope that others do too.
(37:45):
So if you're a creator and you're out there and you're
trying to write to an audience, stop, start writing for
yourself, whether it be lyrics, music, poetry, whatever it is,
do it for you first and you'll find, you'll find an audience.
So I think that's important. But in terms of, of, of me, you
(38:07):
know, I, I said the other day toa friend, I said, I think I
might be near the end of my longmanuscripts.
I don't know if I'm going to be writing much more novels.
And he just looked at me and laughed.
And he said, come on, man, you've been writing so long and
there's so much. There's more stories there.
Or maybe that's true. So every time that I thought
(38:27):
that this is my last book or my last hurrah or my last try,
something else comes along. So, you know, I would say that
to myself, and I would say that to others, You know, find the
time to be creative. We all have a creative streak in
US. We all have something to say.
And I don't mean to sound, you know, sentimental or, or sort
(38:51):
of, you know, New Agey about this.
I truly believe that we all havestories.
We all have creative aspects of our lives.
It's part of the human condition.
So massage it, use it, use that muscle and don't let anybody
tell you any different. Well, hey, David, I appreciate
you taking the time to talk today.
(39:12):
So this is great. Thank you, Michael.
I appreciate it too. Absolutely enjoy the rest of
your day and we will talk again before too long.
Hello and welcome to the program.
My name is Michael Finney. Today I am joined by David West
Berner. Would you like to say hello,
Sir? Yes, I would.
Hello. Thanks for having me here,
Michael. I appreciate that.
So let's get into a little bit of your background.
(00:22):
You know who you are, where you're from, where you are now,
anything. Well, I, I grew up in
Pennsylvania. I grew up in western
Pennsylvania, southwestern Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh,
just outside of Pittsburgh. I came to the Chicago area in
(00:44):
1988. I'd been in broadcast journalism
in Pittsburgh for a long time after I left college and my
undergrad at least came to Chicago in 88 for a position
here of radio position, which I fully embraced and loved and
glad I came to Chicago, raised my kids here.
(01:05):
It's, you know, I love Chicago and it's really my home now, but
I have a great affinity for Pittsburgh too.
It's a town that, not unlike Detroit, came out of the ashes
and rediscovered itself, reinvented itself, and it's
quite a place. It's not what people think.
It's not its old image. So I come from there.
(01:27):
I have a lot of that. I like to say that I have steel
and oil and coal in my blood from that area and kind of the
sound of the working man sensibility.
And I came here in radio and I worked in radio for a long time,
did radio journalism for a long time, did some stuff for NPR,
did some stuff for CBS Radio. And then started teaching
(01:50):
college and became a full time professor and associate
professor later in life, tenured.
And I did that for 18 years while I still worked in
broadcasting and I still do today a little bit.
But mainly my, my work, my efforts, my energy goes toward
writing. First book was written back in
my, when I was in my 40s and I've written over a dozen books
(02:14):
now. And I, it's not about the
quantity, it's about the quality, I hope.
But I tend to write fast and I think that comes from my
broadcast background. It's like, you know, what have
you done for me lately in the last five minutes Even so I, I
tend to be a fast writer, a veryslow editor, but a fast writer.
And that's what I do now, and that's what I love.
(02:37):
And I've written memoir and fiction and some of it
gratefully has been awarded prizes and recognized in some
way. I appreciate that very much.
Just was at Printers Row Litfestin Chicago the other day.
And it's great to talk to readers who come by and have
either read my books or maybe orbuying another one.
(02:59):
And it's great to talk to them. I've done book clubs before,
which is so much fun when they read my book and I get to be
there. So that's what I do now.
I've got a poetry collection coming out on a later this year
and that's my first poetry collection.
I'm very proud of it and a lot of help pulling that together.
So that's kind of a synopsis of where I am.
(03:21):
I live in the western suburbs, suburbs of Chicago now and I do
a little bit of teaching still for Gotham writers in New York.
I used to teach for Columbia, Columbia College, Chicago, but
no longer. So I hope that gives you at
least a good scenario where I am, where I've been, maybe where
I'm going. Yeah, absolutely.
(03:42):
I want to dive into what I am seeing as a overlap in your
career and that would be very broadly media content creation,
content development and journalism.
(04:04):
Maybe before you start getting into the creative writing thing,
what do you see as exemplifying that over overlap between your
radio career and your writing career, perhaps as a journalist,
but maybe maybe not even that aspect, just the skills it takes
(04:27):
to participate in those things and to be productive.
And you know, you said you're fast writer.
Yeah, it's a good question because it wasn't too long ago
that I tried to. Maybe it was for an interview or
maybe it was for a published interview.
I don't remember what it was for, but I was asked a similar
question a few years ago about that.
(04:48):
And I think what it comes down to is that I have always been a
storyteller and every medium that you can think of, maybe
I've been a part of it. I've, I've written songs, I've
played music, you know, that's aform of storytelling.
I've told news stories, you know, that's a form of
storytelling. I did theatre many, many years
(05:10):
ago. That's a form of storytelling.
I did a very little bit of television, but that was a form
of storytelling. Radio journalism is a form of
storytelling. So it's really about telling
stories. So I think, you know, if at the
end of the day, if somebody gaveme a title, my title would be
Storyteller because that kind ofoverlaps everything that I've
done. And I have to say, both of my
(05:34):
parents gave me a little bit of the jeans for that.
My father was, you know, Irish heritage.
And you know, whether you want to be cliche or not, but the
Irish certainly have a way of, of, of, of telling stories.
And as 111 of my friends says, it's in the tea.
(05:58):
And my dad was a great storyteller.
He was a great joke teller, justa great storyteller.
My mother was a voracious reader.
So I think those kind of jeans kind of melded together a little
bit for me. So to answer your question,
really I think it's just the storytelling aspect.
I love telling stories, whether they be fictional, non
fictional, whether they be in poetry form, lyrical form, you
(06:23):
know, I, I just love that aspectof the, of the really the human
spirit, you know, part of the human nature, our human nature,
human condition is to tell each other stories.
And I think that's probably whatI do best and what I do most and
what I do most prolifically in terms of like different media.
(06:45):
So I hope that answers your question.
I think it did. Yeah, very cool.
We kind of share that varied background of music and and
writing and audio, some video stuff.
I, you know, I'm across the board in the same way
photography and, and what have you not periodical work and, you
(07:08):
know, trying to find how to convert the stories, the
information in between all kindsof different formats.
It's really kind of at the heart, I think of a lot of
people in media. Yeah, I think that's true.
Especially I think you've been especially today, because I
think you have to be versed in in a lot of different.
You know, back in the day, if you were a, you know, a
(07:30):
newspaper journalist, you were anewspaper journalist and that's
all you did. Today.
You've got to be, I think, versed in a lot of different
things because of the way we consume media now.
Way we. Consume content?
Yeah, absolutely. Have you, you know, I don't know
how attentive you are to the landscape, but have you paid
(07:56):
attention to how social media and social networking has
changed journalism or changed how you reach an audience or
anything along those lines? I'm just kind of curious 'cause
you've been at it for a while. Well, I've, I've used social
media for a long time and I haveAI have to say, I have a love
(08:19):
hate relationship with that. There's a part of me that thinks
it's fantastic and it's helpful.And especially as a journalist,
you can connect with the, with people who are your people you
may be wanting to interview or even people who come out of, you
know, are witnesses to something.
They can connect very easily. And that's worked very well for
(08:39):
me. But in terms of my writing, I,
I, I find it to be almost essential in today's work to be
an author or a storyteller in any way because it's a, it's a
way to connect magnificently really in a lot of ways with an
audience. I'd say about a year ago, I
(08:59):
reluctantly went on the TikTok. But the reason I went on the
TikTok is I'd heard many of my author friends who have used it
and I found a really vibrant audience there on terms of
readers and people who love literature.
And, and I was highly surprised at how strong the book reading
(09:25):
community is on TikTok. So I've spent a little time
there. I've still spent a little time
there. And I, I try to, you know, post
on a regular basis. And I think that's important not
only for, you know, the marketing, but just to, you
know, there's a landscape out there that's full of content and
(09:46):
you've got to find a way to breakthrough.
And yes, you can get lost in thesocial media jungle, too.
But I think if you can tell stories behind the stories in a
way, if you can open up a different side of you on social
media that allows people to feelmore connected to you as a
storyteller in the broad sense of that word, I think that's
(10:08):
great. And that has changed
dramatically over the last, what, 1520 years in terms of how
it's used, why you use it, best practices, all those kinds of
things. So I embrace social media.
I think it's important to what Ido, but I also know that you can
(10:29):
get really caught up in it and it can drive it.
It almost becomes the catalyst to everything.
And that I don't want to have happen.
I don't want that to become, youknow, sort of like the only
thing I worry about. But it is a tool and and for the
most part it's a good tool. Yeah, I'd find the same thing.
Great way to connect with readers or ideas.
(10:53):
But at the same time, you know, it can become a massive time
sync. Oh yeah.
And, you know, you gotta, you gotta get stuff out.
You know, you taught in college,you know, the adage there is
publish or perish. But I think the speed of social
media and social networks has kind of brought that same line
(11:15):
of thinking to all media in in areally broad sense that, you
know, you don't want to be late to the conversation.
And also you need to make sure that you're promoting there
early. What are some of your favorite
platforms? I see you're on Instagram,
(11:36):
you're on Tiktok, you know, do you use Facebook?
You know, whatever else. Well, I have two Facebook
accounts. One is for family and friends.
You know, it's really not a public place, but the my, my
other Facebook page, David Berner, David W Berner Writer,
is open to everybody. It's public and I use it
regularly. I mean, I would say I probably
(11:57):
use Instagram more often than anything else, but I have been
relatively active over the last 8-9 months on TikTok, even
though I was reluctant. But I did find a a wonderful
supportive literary community onthere, which surprised me a
little bit, But I was happy to find that all that was good.
(12:21):
And I would say, you know, do I have a favorite social media?
I don't know if I have a favorite, but I would say it
probably leaned toward Instagrammore than they do anything else.
That's where I, I think I probably posted the most, but
it's probably not that much morethan Facebook or TikTok.
And sometimes I'll post similar things on, you know, all three
of the platforms 'cause I find that the audiences, the sort of
(12:46):
users of the, each one of those platforms is slightly different.
They're they're they're sort of demographic and socio economic
backgrounds and everything are all like to be slightly
different, homogenized and somewhat but slightly different.
Yeah. You know, I guess the unifying
factor is you and them being interested in your work.
(13:07):
But kind of going back to what we were talking about before and
the idea of making media that translates across all kinds of
different channels and types, Itsort of holds that same line of
thinking for something like Instagram where you know, it
traditionally it was pictures, it's more video now.
(13:29):
Facebook again, you know, started with more words and
blurbs, kind of got into pictures, started to get into
video. Where you have Tiktok now is
really about short form video. And you know, some of the other
platforms are adopting that. But it really, I would say in
the same way that Snapchat did put that kind of like up front
(13:52):
and made it its primary feature out of the gate.
Yep, Yeah, That's very true. Yeah, I and I, I think, you
know, I mean, how many times, you know, what best practices
will tell you if you can get a, a photograph that's moving, a
video on any of those platforms,they're more likely to be
spotted or paid attention to. It's probably just the human
(14:15):
condition, you know, where, where we, the dog barks at the,
you know, the running jogger or the guy on a bike more than he
does if somebody standing still.So I, I just think that that's
part of what we do. So I try to do that.
I try to post things where I might be talking about something
I'm working on or if I'm. Barking at a cyclist passing by
(14:40):
anything, Yeah. We had the galleys for my poetry
collection arrived the other day.
So I was going through those andI just did a little video about,
you know, that process. So those kinds of things.
And I try to do stuff that wouldn't be normally offered or,
you know, available to a reader to show them kind of behind the
(15:00):
scenes stuff. We got to give them some kind of
value to coming to those social media sites.
So I, I, I just try to do it a little differently.
I don't know if that's a little differently, but that's kind of
the best practice to me. Let's hear about influences.
Now you've worked in fiction andnon fiction.
So, you know, we think about maybe some of the folks going
(15:23):
way back, You know, Orwell worked in fiction and non
fiction. Hemingway worked in fiction and
non fiction, A Hunter Thompson worked in fiction and non
fiction. Who were some of the people that
influenced you? Doesn't necessarily have to be
anybody that worked in both of those sides of writing, but it
could be radio personalities, media personalities, writers for
(15:47):
whatever you know, works that you're interested in in drawing
a line to. I, I think that there's a lot of
people who have influenced me ormade me at least think about
some way of storytelling or maybe a particular mood or
something like that. There's a lot of people and I, I
would probably start because my first love really was music when
(16:11):
I was a teenager. And there's no question in my
mind that the lyricist of that era when I was growing up, so
that the Bob Dylan's, the Joni Mitchell's, those people have
made an impact on me and still do to this day.
And if there are musicians now that are influencing me, I would
say Jason Isbell is 1. It's the people who tend to be
(16:35):
iron and Wine Sambi, people who are more lyrically oriented.
You know, the lyrics mean a lot.I heard a song, brand new song
from Brandi Carlile the other day that just blew me away.
I mean, it was absolutely a stunning piece of work.
And it was mostly about the lyrics.
So those things have influenced me and they still do to this
(16:55):
day. You know, writers, I'm kind of
all over the place with a lot ofthat.
I mean, my writing tends to be it comes from, you know, a basis
of broadcast style, I think, which is sort of like simple and
direct. And that's very much a Hemingway
thing. But I also, so there's some
(17:16):
influence there. I think there's also influence
from people like Kerouac, you know, pushing the boundaries a
little bit or playing with language a little more.
Maybe there's a little bit of that in there.
One of my absolutely favorite artists of all time in in across
(17:37):
different platforms is Patti Smith.
You know, she's a poet, she's a musician, she's a world renowned
author. You know, the, the memoir just
kid. This is magnificent.
I, I find her to be an artist artist and I, I respect that.
(17:59):
I really do. So it's hard to say, oh, this
is, you know, my, my artistic muse.
You know, one or two people. There's a lot of them.
I'm looking at a bookshelf rightin front of me right now and I
see a book from, you know, Sam Shepard and one from a Norwegian
writer who I love, Per Peterson.Fantastic writers.
(18:22):
And so I get a little bit from all of them.
Yeah, I think that's kind of thecritical thing when you're
trying to be creative, when you're trying to dial into the
muse, is to say, you know, yes, I have these things that speak
to me, but also these messages that I want to deliver.
I have to find the best ways of expressing them and packaging
(18:47):
them. Sometimes it is through a song,
sometimes it's through an image,sometimes it's through words,
whether they are prose or poetic.
And it's all right to mix those things together.
You know, we're like I said before, we're we're in a very
similar boat. You know, I've, I've done a
handful of book projects and, and video fiction and non
(19:11):
fiction and made music for some of this stuff.
And I, I would be as pressed as you are to dial in on
influences. I would say I would have to be
like, you know, this project wasinfluenced by XY and Z.
Yeah, that's a good way to. Put it you know, I I couldn't
speak across the board and say all of my work was influenced by
(19:35):
one writer or another. Right.
Yeah, I think that's that. I think that's a good way to put
it. And it depends on the project or
the particular thing I'm workingon, I think.
But, you know, I, I, I can get influences from everywhere.
I can hear a lyric from a song from an artist I don't know.
And I'd be like, you know, shattered by it and.
And somehow will find a way to incorporate whatever that
(19:57):
feeling is or that emotion that was brought forth from that into
my work somehow. I mean, you know, I've, I've had
reviewers, at least my publishing work have called me
contemplative, poetic prose, things of that sort.
(20:17):
So I I'm not a. I'm not a flash bang kind of
guy. I'm not a mystery writer.
I'm not a suspense writer. That's not what I do.
I have had people say to me, youshould write a really good, you
know, mystery novel. And I said I can't write a
mystery novel. I would be terrible at it.
(20:37):
It's just not my. It's not my, it's not what I do,
you know, but what I do, I thinkI do pretty well.
So I'm going to try to stay in my lane a little bit in terms of
that. But, you know, I broke out of
the lane a little bit when I started writing poetry and I got
some pieces published and then the poetry book came about.
(20:59):
So, you know, I, I will continueto, to, to, to stretch, but I
also know what I do well and what I don't do well.
So I'm very aware of that. Let's talk about your catalog,
maybe back catalog first before we get into the to the poetry
book. You know what has been
(21:20):
surprisingly successful or maybewhat has been, you know,
personal favorites of yours to work on or surprises.
You know that you, you discovered you really enjoyed
and maybe at the beginning of it, it, it was just like an idea
and all of a sudden it kind of cascaded into something that you
(21:41):
were became really passionate about.
Yeah, well, I never expected to write my first book.
I didn't plan to write a book about my experience.
And my first book is a memoir. I took some time off between my
college. I'm sorry, between my broadcast
journalism career and going to full time work at the college,
and I taught at a high school inoutside of Chicago, kind of a
(22:05):
depressed area. I don't want to call the high
school in any way, you know, a dangerous place, but it was a
troubled school. Then I taught there for a year.
And when I would come home and I'd tell my kids about
experiences I'd had, they asked me, Daddy, you're writing this
down. And I was embarrassed to say
that I wasn't. So I, I went back and I started
(22:26):
to kind of kept, kept notes and it became my first book.
And at the time that I was doingthat, you know, I was in love
with that book. I was in love with the writing
of it. I was in love with shaping it
and finding the best way to tellit.
But then the next book came and I fell in love with that book.
So, you know, to answer your question about a favorite, it's
the one I'm writing at that moment.
(22:47):
You know, it's the one I'm pushing at the moment.
It's the one I'm I'm, you know, with at the time, you know, sort
of like love the one you're with.
It's I like all of my work. I think all my work has merit,
but you know, I fall in love with the one that I'm working
on. So there's that.
You know, the first piece of fiction that I wrote in terms of
(23:10):
a full length manuscript, I kindof wrote it backward, meaning I
knew exactly what the ending wasgoing to be.
I had AI had a picture in my head of what I wanted the ending
to be. And I kind of thought about how
am I going to get there? I don't use outlines.
I'm a seat of the pants guy. I think the story is already
(23:31):
there in many ways. You just got to dig through the
dirt and the Moss and the mess to find it.
And that's kind of what I do. And sometimes when I'm writing,
I surprise myself, but where it's going.
And that's kind of fun. You know, that's, that's sort of
the beauty of it a lot of ways. And it's the antithesis of, of,
of journalism because you're working with facts and you're
working with, you know, a particular way that you want to
(23:53):
say something in particular style.
But when you're writing either memoir or fiction, you know, you
can pick and choose what, what you want to focus on.
So, yeah, I have, I have a fair amount of books and I, and I'm,
you know, over a dozen now. Some, you know, some of them are
memoirs, some of them are fiction.
Some of them, I've had a couple novellas.
(24:15):
The Islander is probably one that's been awarded the most or
at least acknowledged the most interesting project by this
publisher, Outcast Outpost, rather Outpost 19 in San
Francisco, smaller publisher that started this this
initiative called the shortest Project.
(24:38):
And they were only going to workwith novellas for this
particular imprint, which is highly unusual in the publishing
world right now because most publishers shun novellas because
they think nobody wants to read something it's only 150 pages
and spend $15. Well, that may be true, but we
are becoming shorter and shorterwith our attention spans and we
(25:00):
I don't see why people wouldn't love short books.
So that never made any sense to me, but my, my, my note that is
a novella, which I, I really love that book.
And I think that book has gottena lot of a lot of praise.
So there's that. I have, you know, I have some
other fiction that's, you know, a typical length fiction, 75,000
(25:23):
words kind of thing. But, you know, picking a
favorite is a tough one. It's like it's usually the one
I'm working on at the moment andI don't know where ideas come
from in terms of fiction. I think sometimes I've, I've
read a news story that sparked something and made me think
(25:43):
about something in a different way.
You know, you know, one of my memoirs, you know, is about 3
days. It's about 3 days in time.
So you know, it's, I've taken different approaches.
I think if you read all my work,though, it would have a similar
thread, meaning it's probably, you know, contemplative.
(26:06):
There's a lot of father, son relationship stories throughout
my work. Yeah, a lot of family oriented
things. I want to say I've not written
a, you know, a family epic saga kind of thing.
That's probably not me. But the connection between, you
(26:27):
know, the human condition between fathers and sons
families, I would say is a is a pretty strong theme.
And all of this stuff, even in the poetry collection, nature is
a big deal in a lot of the stuff.
The artistic process is a big part of it.
(26:49):
But you know, it's not like, youknow, Scott Tarot, who writes
basically everything out of the courtroom, right?
I don't, I don't have that kind of my, my stuff is a little all
over the place, but it has the the similarity of sort of my
contemplative style. I think that's what kind of
(27:11):
links them all together. I hope that answered your
question. Yeah, absolutely.
Let's turn to Garden Tools, the poetry collection you are
releasing this fall. Yes, I, I think it's going to
come out a a little after this episode goes live.
But where did it start? Was there a kind of topical
(27:33):
theme? You know, you've titled it
Garden Tools. You mentioned liking nature.
Tell us more. Yeah, so I had written, I
occasionally had written a poem here or there and sometimes I
did it only to just like stretchthe riety muscles, you know, it
wasn't meant to be published. I have a couple of typewriters
(27:55):
in my little writing shed and I use those sometimes the type
poems that my poems tend to be relatively short.
And I it just was an exercise. It was a kind of a meditative
exercise, a meditative writing exercise.
And then I, you know, Long storyshort, I had a couple published
and I kept thinking, well, maybeI maybe I should play around
(28:16):
with this a little bit more. So I did.
And I tried to write a poem a day for a while.
A lot of it was garbage, you know, but some of it was, you
know, not bad. And I started keeping a
collection and pulling it together.
And then I start thinking, well,maybe there's something to this.
So I reached out to a couple of friends of mine who are poets,
(28:37):
very good ones. And I had them, hey, look at
this manuscript and tell me whether you think this is, you
know, worthy of anything. And they were very helpful.
They're very encouraging. A couple of notes here or there
was very helpful for me, but I felt like I had something and so
I thought, well, maybe it is time to try this.
So I began to shop it out there.I used to have an agent.
(29:01):
I don't have an agent anymore. I found in today's world, if
you're trying to write commercial fiction, that's
probably a good idea to have an agent.
But if you're writing literary fiction or poetry or something
of that sort, agents don't, they're not, they don't do you a
whole hell of a lot of good. I'll be very honest with you.
(29:22):
Because they're not connected tothe publishers that want that
kind of work. They're connected to the
commercial publishers because they want to make their money.
I understand. So I was the one who, you know,
went out to the publishers and started shopping it around, got
a publisher and they seem to like it.
And Finishing Line Press is a, awell known poetry publisher.
(29:46):
It's a medium sized publishing company.
They, they tend to be very supportive and they do nothing
but poetry, which is a hard sellin itself sometimes.
But I, I felt like I had something.
And so, you know, you mentioned about the theme of it, that sort
of thing. Well, the name came from
(30:08):
something my wife. My wife was a very avid gardener
and a very good one. She, she said, you know, you got
to have the garden tools to, to create your garden.
And I thought, well, that's a metaphor.
You know, your garden is your life.
You know, the tools that you need to, to, to make a beautiful
(30:29):
life. And that's kind of where it came
from. So the if there's a thread
through the work, it's in three sections, land, landscape, love
and longing. And each one of those sections
has poems that are kind of linked to those phrases.
But it's really about tending toyour life, tending to the garden
(30:51):
that you're living. And that's kind of the theme.
So there are, there are poems inthis collection that are about
nature, that are about gardens, that are about family, that are
about dogs, that are about landscapes.
It's just about being present inthe world and, and making the
(31:15):
best of your garden, you know, in terms of your life.
And that's kind of what it, whatthe theme is through this.
And I, and I really, I didn't know what that was until I
started playing around with all the, the poems that I had and I
started finding a sort of threadthat was there.
(31:35):
I didn't pick a thread and then try to work poems into that
thread. I, the thread came out of the
poems. So there's 50 some poems in
there and most of them are fairly short, maybe 4 stanzas at
best, four or five stanzas. 1 isa little bit longer.
(31:56):
And, you know, I'm, it's a journey that I went on to do
this. And I kind of surprised myself.
I didn't, I didn't know that I would be able to, to make this
work. And I've gotten a lot of praise
for him. I had some other poems published
since then. And I'm working on a second
(32:16):
collection right now. So that's going to be a while.
But yeah, it's, it's been, it's been a, it's been a great
exercise not only for me, but just, you know, that sort of
literary exercise to sort of play with words and, and think
of things a little differently. So it's been a lot of fun.
You have another book slated forrelease next year, American
(32:38):
Moon. I assume that it is still maybe
a little in progress. Maybe you're in editing or or
anything like that. Just briefly, what should people
expect from that novella? Yeah, so we just finished up the
editing with my editor at Regal House Publishing.
I'm looking for probably in the next couple of months, maybe get
(33:03):
a cover design that'll be sent, and then we go into some
marketing issues. So the book is called American
Moon. It's a novella again.
I'm lucky enough to get a novella published this I won the
prize from the publishing house for literary novellas, which I
(33:25):
was pleased with. And with that prize came the the
publication. So I'm happy to be a Regal House
is wonderful. They're sharp and attentive and
supportive and well organized. They're very helpful.
So the story, it's called American Moon because it's about
(33:48):
sort of the, the rise and, and, and, and the fall in a lot of
ways. So the, you know, the, the moon
set and the moon rise of sort ofthe American dream.
It's like, and it's based off a story of a young man who is
(34:11):
travelling across the country and stays overnight in a motel,
kind of A roadside motel. And Long story short, discovers
a infant in the room next to himalone, crying.
And from there, he discovers themother and he discovers her
(34:32):
issues, of which she has many. And they both kind of set off in
a way together to sort of see ifthe American dream is still out
there, both carrying their own demons in a way.
And so it's a bit of a road tripstory.
(34:52):
It's a bit of a story about modern day America, the rise of
Donald Trump, the rise of the opioid crisis, the rise of
poverty, you know, is the American dream still alive?
But it's told through the story of these two people and their
(35:17):
their want to find something that that is good for them, good
for their lives. The the, you know, what they
would consider their American dream.
So that's the story. And, you know, I'm not sure.
(35:38):
The only way this book came about was I had this idea.
I read about a story or read a news story many years ago about
someone who had found an infant,you know, like on the doorstep
or something. And it just struck me.
It's like, well, what, you know,what do you do when that
happens? And how do you, how do you live
with that? How do you, how does that sit
with you? You know, how does that affect
(36:00):
you? And I started playing around
with it and the story came to life and it just, it just really
came out. I mean, it's just like, wow,
it's just all there. Just a matter of sitting in
front of the keyboard and getting it out.
So that's that's what that story's about.
And I'm really, I'm really looking forward to this book
(36:21):
coming out. You know, like I said, I'm in
love with the one that I'm currently working on.
It's kind of like that. But yeah, it's, you know,
publishing sometimes is a long process.
I mean, I won that award from them, what, a year and a half
ago. So we're really just getting
into the publishing of the really the works of the
publishing now. So it takes some time, sometime,
(36:41):
but I'm looking forward to it, yeah.
Are there any final thoughts that you have or things that you
haven't said that you feel that need to be said about your work,
your career, your books? You know, first of all, I would
say anybody who, because I work with students all the time, work
with young writers and older writers who are trying to write
(37:03):
something. If you are in a creative world
and, and you know, I'm a big believer in in the music
producer Rick Rubin's words about just create for yourself,
do it for you. If there's an audience there or
if someone's going to like it, you're going to connect more
that audience. If you do something for you,
(37:24):
consider the human spirit, consider the human condition,
but as a creator, make sure you do it for you first.
I don't write for an audience. I don't write to an audience.
I know some people do and that'sfine if that's how they want to
work. But I, I write a story that I
want to read and then I just hope that others do too.
(37:45):
So if you're a creator and you're out there and you're
trying to write to an audience, stop, start writing for
yourself, whether it be lyrics, music, poetry, whatever it is,
do it for you first and you'll find, you'll find an audience.
So I think that's important. But in terms of, of, of me, you
(38:07):
know, I, I said the other day toa friend, I said, I think I
might be near the end of my longmanuscripts.
I don't know if I'm going to be writing much more novels.
And he just looked at me and laughed.
And he said, come on, man, you've been writing so long and
there's so much. There's more stories there.
Or maybe that's true. So every time that I thought
(38:27):
that this is my last book or my last hurrah or my last try,
something else comes along. So, you know, I would say that
to myself, and I would say that to others, You know, find the
time to be creative. We all have a creative streak in
US. We all have something to say.
And I don't mean to sound, you know, sentimental or, or sort
(38:51):
of, you know, New Agey about this.
I truly believe that we all havestories.
We all have creative aspects of our lives.
It's part of the human condition.
So massage it, use it, use that muscle and don't let anybody
tell you any different. Well, hey, David, I appreciate
you taking the time to talk today.
(39:12):
So this is great. Thank you, Michael.
I appreciate it too. Absolutely enjoy the rest of
your day and we will talk again before too long.
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