Writing, Publishing & Authorship : 5-28-25

In this session, the narrative voice, using POV and characterization for immersion, getting work done and released.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Got a new article this month. Been doing one every month on
Substack. Talking beta readers, beta
listeners. It's all the way to the left up
top. You can check that out.
Additionally, the most recent session of this space from 2
weeks ago is also available if you want to listen back.

(00:22):
It's not all your favorite podcast platforms.
Also pre-orders for Anunnaki going until the release as
pre-orders do June 1st release date on that.
So it'll be you know, days away.It's already ready.
I am finalizing the audiobook production right now doing the

(00:43):
audio drama. Had to go back to some stuff.
I might I might talk about that a little bit later, just because
it's relevant in terms of multimodal creativity working
between video and audiobooks. Also, we are wrapping up the
month of May's Daily Facts 1A day.

(01:05):
You might like some, you might learn a little videos compiled,
composited from AI clips. The history is real, even if the
imagery is partially synthetic. Well, let's say the motion is
synthetic. The imagery is also historical.

(01:27):
As it turns out, Bloody Sepulchre Audiobook came out
this month. It's up on all of your favorite
audiobook platforms, Apple Books, Spotify, wherever else
you might like to listen. Ricky, how is it?
What are you doing? How is it going today?

(01:49):
Pretty good Michael, I just hit 86 K on Dragon 2.
And yeah. Yeah, coming right around the
bend. I'm hoping in another week or so
I can wrap that up. And then I got a lot of editing.
I got to, I got to attend to some outlines.
You know, I'm, I'm having, I'm having a blast living the dream.

(02:12):
Yeah, very good. Yeah man, 80,000 words.
I don't know beyond me. Presently I've been doing a new
little experiment, working from one of my outlines and speaking
it into existence, narrating with speech to text basically

(02:41):
the the world building elements and some of the transitional
components just to basically, you know, give it a first draft
sort of text. Basically, it's a story that'll
come out next year and basicallyI'm just using this as a way to

(03:03):
RIP through my my outline and get something to work with it.
It might require me to do more editing than I typically do in
the sense of like going back andrewriting lines, but I'm I'm
willing to do the experiment. I'm willing to give it a shot

(03:24):
and see how it goes. I don't know if anybody else has
done speech to text or focused on the narrative voice as it
might be called. If anyone is familiar with
season 1 of Westworld with Anthony Hopkins, he would

(03:44):
occasionally break into the narrative voice when he was
speaking to some of the hosts. And that was, oh, I'm just
looking, I'm looking at what yougot here, what you're posting
up. Let's put it up in the nest,
buddy and I, I find it to be a really interesting thing, not

(04:07):
only as an exercise, but particularly right now.
Over the last couple of days, there's been a discussion about
younger readers having a problemwith third person omniscient and
preferring things in first person.
That narrative voice is sort of this omniscient voice, this

(04:29):
third person omniscient voice where he'll speak the actions
that the the hosts, the androids, the the the robots,
the machines inside of Westworldwill then execute in real time.
I'm liking it as an exercise. I don't know if it's the way I

(04:51):
would do everything. I don't think it's necessarily
the best way to go about stuff, but I'm trying it.
I'm trying a lot of different things.
You know, the Anunnaki is in first person, as it turns out,
just to juxtapose these two points of view next to each
other in example as well as dialogue.

(05:11):
That's something, you know, thatI, I'm trying to think more
about trying to, to expand my horizons, you know, do you use
any of those things, the narrative voice?
Do you speech to text? Do you like third person?
Do you like first person? And then obviously you're,

(05:36):
you're more than free to speak on second person as well, which
we find in tabletop role-playing.
We know that you have a history in it.
Yeah. Well, I, I mostly, I, I've heard
this whole thing about how the, the youngsters don't like third
person of Nesha and I guess I'm kind of doomed with that

(05:59):
demographic. I, I mostly write with in third
person of Nesha because of the, the freedom that it allows for.
I mean, you basically tell the story from anybody's point of
view and you're always telling it from like the camera or God,
however you want to call it. I mean, that's, that's why they
call it what they call it. Most of my eternity stuff is

(06:22):
third person. My Wargate stuff is like that.
Sometimes I break away and I'll write like a single chapter in
first or like prologue in first or something like that.
Especially if it's coming from like a different viewpoint then
you know, maybe the MC, you know, like in Nidhogg

(06:43):
Chronicles, I start off with a, with a chat.
I think it's yeah, it's some kind of prologue and that's the
one that has a chapter 02. Also I put Master off one in the
purple pill written third personI'm nation.
I got news recently that Master off 3 is almost done, so I'm

(07:06):
hoping, you know, I mean, I've been saying this for months, but
I'm hoping it'll be up on Amazonsoon, you know?
Yeah, very good. Looking forward to that.
And, you know, obviously keep usposted so we can all do the
promotion that it deserves. Yeah, years ago I was involved
in a project where we were trying to write a Choose Your
Own Adventure book, and those are in second person.

(07:28):
Right. And it's really not that
inconvenient to compose in that,in that perspective.
But in the same token, I don't, I don't prefer it.
It, it's it's the same thing with the first.
It's like there are to me and a lot there are people who don't

(07:51):
agree with me, but there are forme.
There's a lot of limits to the first and second person.
And, and I've, I've read Lewis wrote a book and I think it's
called Until We Have Faces, that's in first person.
And that was very well written. But it's just, it's, it's a

(08:11):
matter of, it's a matter of, of,of preference.
I obviously, I, I, well, I don'tknow if it's obviously, I don't
know if you people know who Robin Hobb is.
She's a fantasy writer. I think she lives in Alaska on
YouTube. There's a lot of videos with her

(08:32):
where they have speaking tours, she and George RR Martin, who
wrote The Song of Ice and Fire, among other things, and her
Assassin's Apprentice. It's like a trilogy with this
chivalry that's in first person.That and it's probably one of

(08:52):
one of the finest examples of the first person perspective
because at no point am I like bothered by it.
And normally I don't want to getcurmudgeon E or cantankerous or
whatever, but it's like I I it, I just see eyes.
It's like not, not EYE, but like, you know, the I, the ego,

(09:14):
I, it's every sentence, every other sentence is like, I like
there's tons of eyes and paragraphs and it's just my
whole redundancy, my redundancy complex, which serves me well in
my editing, loathsome as it is, because I'm not really that fond
of the editing phase. But anyway, I, I think you see

(09:36):
what I'm getting at here. I mean, you really have to be
very, very poetic and very artful and, and very, very wise
about how you compose. I mean, I'd love to hear someone
else's take on that, you know? Well, hey Nicholas, this is the
first time you've been in here in a while.

(09:57):
Good to see you back. Are you driving?
How is your book going? What do you think about point of
view? Yes, hello, I have.
I'm not driving. I'm still just editing the book,
combing, combing, combing through until there's no more
knots. I have nothing to say on it at
this point. The point of view question.

(10:21):
People can't read third person on mission anymore.
I think that this is a joke. Actually.
I think we're all being trolled.I can't possibly.
It's like fake news. I, I can't possibly imagine,
like I, I'm, I'm a very empathetic person.
I can see things from other people's perspectives and I just
can't, I can't do it with it. I can't fathom that somebody is,

(10:43):
isn't capable. Third person omniscient is like
the most basic storytelling. You sit around a campfire and,
and you know, listen to a story.I'm reading The Hobbit right now
to my, to my son. And this is third person
omniscient. You know, Bilbo did this, The
Hobbit did that, Dwarf said this.
And once in a while Tolkien willwill say something directly to

(11:06):
the reader where he's like, ah, you probably solved this Riddle
already or we'll soon find out that Bilbo, you know, solved
this prop. So third person omniscient.
And it's the easiest thing to read.
So I just, I just don't buy it. I think we're all being had.
I don't disagree with that to some level, but I think that

(11:34):
when we consider perhaps how people are digesting stories
predominantly right now, when we're looking at the vertical
video phenomenon of the last 10 plus years, people just speaking
into the camera at an audience performatively as opposed to

(12:01):
maybe traditional storytelling, this perhaps is where things
create a divide and get lost. You know, I don't know.
I'm just speculating. Yeah, I don't know.
I don't, I don't. I find third person of nation to
be totally accessible. Yeah, it's like it's, it's like
the gentleman said, Nicholas. It's like a coal biter, like a

(12:25):
campfire thing. I mean, you know, the complexity
and it could be first in that same way, but it's like, I don't
know, I, I guess I just don't, Idon't get it.
And I'm hoping that it is sort of that we are sort of being
sold or whatever because I, I chiefly composed in that.

(12:46):
So oh boy, you know. Yeah.
I, I will also say on the topic of POVI, recently read a fairly
long novel that was written in first person and there was a lot
of fighting scenes. And actually I found myself
thinking the first person POV took away from the story because

(13:09):
there's not a lot of dramatic tension.
This, this book was like 600 pages long and he's getting into
a fight, you know, in like the second chapter and I'm like, OK,
well, obviously he's going to make it through this fight
because there's 600 more pages he needs to get to the end.
I think it can work very well incertain circumstances where the

(13:30):
narrator's kind of giving you the reader like a wink and a nod
throughout some of these fights or whatever.
But you know, certain formats, it's like you it, I guess
certain types of stories. I think it just doesn't work.
It's you got just I think just stick with third person like
generally is is safe unless there's a really good reason to

(13:50):
steer from that path. Yeah, excellent example.
In the grand scheme of things, you can't have very low risk and
stakes in Chapter 2 with a fightand you got hundreds of pages

(14:10):
more story if it's in first person.
So yeah, very good example. I would say.
We've got Hash Master and Heidi up if you guys have thoughts on
any of this or you want to kick around new ideas.
Also for the folks hanging out in the audience, if you would
like to come up, raise your hand.

(14:31):
And this is an open conversation.
We are not trying to just talk at you, but at the same time,
you know, feel free. Oh, wait, we, we, we lost hash
master and though I got the new request, I got to bring you back
up. Hold on just a second there it
is. All right.
If we're going alphabetically speaking, you know, whatever,

(14:54):
but you know, we haven't heard from you guys yet.
This is your chance. Is that me?
Is it? Is it, is it?
Is it ladies first or alphabetical?
Which do you prefer, Michael? How do we know is hash master?
How do you know? Let's go with the live people

(15:15):
first. Let's go ladies first, all
right? We can thank you.
No, I I'm kind of in agreement. I'm, I'm not a massive fan of
first person. I read first person novels.
There's good ones and I think you're on to something, Michael,
with the we, we see that, that talking to the camera like

(15:37):
reality TV, like it's up close and personal, like this is real.
And I think that's part of whereit's coming from.
And I know that the the modern romance novel, you know, and,
and I know you guys are big romance fans, so you've probably
read them all right, but they'reall written in first person.
It's like you have to write themin first person because you'll

(15:59):
have like 1 chapter from the female point of view, 1 chapter
from the male point of view. If you know you're doing a
traditional sort of thing. And that's, that's how it will,
will go. And they, the thing about them,
I think the other reason that everyone's pushing first person
is because of audiobooks. So when you're listening to the

(16:23):
audiobook, it's like the person is talking to you.
It's like a, it's more of a performance.
It's like the actor is is speaking their role, you know,
So the whole thing comes off like dialogue when you're
listening. That said, I still like
audiobooks that are third person.
I don't think it matters, but I think that's one of the reasons

(16:44):
it's happening. And I kind of agree.
I agree with you guys. I'm not a big fan of it.
I mean, obviously there are there are situations where it's
great, like catcher in the Rye or till we have faces where it
it works, but it's done not style.
It's not done. I neither of those are done

(17:07):
because it's was popular. It they were done because that
was the way to tell that story effectively and you know, and
you know, sometimes you want thenarrative to be limited, you
know, especially like you look at like till we have faces.
You know, she's a rule. I've no, I have no idea.

(17:28):
I've never been able to figure out how to pronounce it.
Arul Arul is the main character who's the first person
perspective. She is coming at you with
limited knowledge. And Louis, I think wanted her to
have limited knowledge because Imean, this is this is a
Christian novel telling a Christian story from a certain

(17:51):
perspective, from a pagan's perspective.
So she can't understand what's happening at 1st.
And then you get to the very endof that book and it switches
point of view where there's thissort of medieval trial, like,
like something out of trousers were like the parliament of
Phulace where she is on trial. And it becomes sort of this

(18:13):
third person omniscient at the end.
I mean, this was structured in avery purposeful way.
It wasn't done for popularity. So I mean, ultimately, yeah.
I mean, I, I, I'm not a massive fan of it, but I think the
reasons it's happening is it's just an oversimplification of,
of storytelling. They're just like, well, this is

(18:35):
the E, this is what people want.And it's like, well, I don't
know, is, is that really what they want?
Or is it just, you know, a bit of a troll?
I mean, I, I, I'm sure people can read that, but you'll see,
you'll see people saying, I'm not reading this because it's in
first. It's not in first person.
It's like, then you're not really a reader.

(18:58):
I don't know what you're doing, man.
But OK, I'll stop. Yeah, let's get after the heart
of what you're saying here. I'm not sure it's a trend so
much as the the readers are idiots.
You know, they're serving. They're serving this crowd of
people who cannot hold the the narrative in their mind when

(19:25):
it's not in first person becausethere's too many perspectives
that they're having to jump between.
Hashmaster, what are you thinking?
I I. Kind of want to frame my answer
in more of a question just to like expand on what you guys are
talking about. Do you feel like you can get?

(19:47):
As immersed into a character, specifically from the
descriptions of an outside pointof view like or.
Is, is that just, it's somethingin my brain right now thinking
about because I feel like if I'mwriting a character and I'm
writing them from the first point, the first person point of
view, I, I feel like I can kind of narrow in on what my feelings

(20:10):
in the specific situation are. And that might help the readers
understand why the decisions arebeing made and why the the
tensions pull in from multiple points of view where I don't
feel like. I personally could explain that
and maybe it's just I haven't written a lot, but that's just
where I feel like. Do you guys think that you can?
Be as immersed from inside a specific character from third

(20:34):
person. For me, when I think about third
person stuff, I think about video games.
I think about a lot of stories where it's more ensemble
oriented or television that is, you know, weird beyond the 4th
wall. Am I immersed into the story or

(20:57):
am I immersed in a character's point of view?
Well, no for the character's point of view, because that's
not necessarily what that point of view is intending to do so.
I understand what Ash is gettingat.
I've heard that. I've heard that before.

(21:19):
For one like me, I don't really write heavy characterization in
the 1st place. With me, it's more like art
types. I write from from the
perspective of art types. And you know, there's, there's
characters and there's characterization.

(21:39):
But the benefit for me is the flexibility.
You're at liberty to do a telescopic, telescopic
perspective. I could zoom out far away and
act like like I said, the cameraor Almighty God and Rolodex
through any character that's in the chapter and then I focus

(22:02):
zoom in on them. You know, the cyber Christ said
Lord Draken, well done, you know, and he thought of that
time before. And it's the same thing with
with the MC. It's like I can zoom in
introspectively to what the MC is thinking while still in a

(22:22):
third person perspective. That's that's a telescoping,
that's a telescopic. I don't know why I can't say
that word today. That's a telescopic perspective.
So if you go, I mean, because it's the the modes are in.
Is it, is it, is it dialogue? Is it action?
Is it, is it, is it combat? Is it introspection?

(22:45):
Is it, you know, is it some kindof oversight?
Is it overview of, of concepts like what, what are, what, what
are we conveying? You know, and I don't, that's
one of the reasons because if you're, if you write in first
person, to me, it's harder to zoom out and then expand and,

(23:05):
and therefore transitions might be limited or, or stuff like
that. It I assume it's all according
to the kind of storyteller you are, but I don't know.
I it's pretty easy situation forme.
I know what I prefer. I have no problem with a third
person getting immersed into a character.

(23:29):
I will say A Song of Ice and Fire is actually one of my
favorite book series. I'm I'm really sad that he
doesn't look like he's going to be able to finish.
And I think that part of the reason it's so great is he is an
expert at getting you into the character's skin and he does it
all through third person. Now, granted, I guess I haven't
probably read enough first person to find life comparisons.

(23:53):
I'm sure that it works well thatway.
But there's there's like no issue whatsoever for me with the
third person. Just, you know, based on my
experience reading those books. In fact, I think the third
person might even be better when, when you or when you're
first person, you're, you're like, you're telling a story

(24:14):
through like, through your own. And, and to, to make the voice
like believable, you have to kind of like tell it in a
certain way that like a third person narrator has a little bit
more liberty to describe what's actually like this, this the OK,
the character like Jane Doe was getting really impatient with
what was happening in front of her and her face started to

(24:36):
flush and she started biting hernails and tapping her toes.
And, and you can describe a lot from the third person, but if
you're telling it in a first person voice and you're like
really bought into that voice and you're like, I am telling
you a story. I'm sitting here and I'm getting
impatient. I might not even be conscious of
the fact that I'm tapping my toes or biting my fingers.
So I'm not going to describe that as it's happening because

(25:00):
I'm so I have to be committed tothe bit, right?
There's like you can almost fromthe third person see more and
and therefore I get into the person's skin a little bit more.
I'm speculating, of course, because like I said, I've never
really read a ton of really goodfirst person books, but I've
never had an issue. And in fact, I think there's
benefits from keeping in a thirdperson.

(25:21):
Sure, fair, reasonable. I think Ricky raised your hand
1st and then Heidi. Does that sound right?
Yeah, Hash, just real quick, as I recommended before, I don't
know if you were in the room when I said it, but Robin Hobb
is a fantastic writer. She's a genius.
And Assassin's Apprentice, I think it's a trilogy.

(25:43):
That's one of the best first persons I ever read.
So you, even though I don't advocate for it, I recommend
that if if you're you're lookingfor that, check that out.
As far as George Martin is concerned, he teaches us a
lesson. I mean, all his all his chapters
are character chapters. And then as he gets further on

(26:06):
in the series, they get he he keeps adding characters.
Some of them he kills, some of them he doesn't.
Some of them he just brutalizes and mutilates.
Some of them die. But towards the end of the book
series, which is a fantastic book series.
I mean, he was once he was once a genius.

(26:27):
I don't know if he remembers like what he was doing and if he
was having fun, if he's having fun anymore.
I'm not sure, but later on in the later books of the Song of
the Song of Ice and Fire, they're not even like
characters. They, they start turning into,
you know, it's like, it's like versions of other characters

(26:49):
like, or it's more like their situation chapters 'cause it's
like he's got too many, he's gottoo many like spider webs in his
narrative. There's too many like like
complexities and and he can't for some reason he can't like,
like line it up. I mean, I, he has outlines, but

(27:10):
he claims to be what he calls a gardener and that he doesn't
actually outline. I've watched many, many, I've
I've listened, I should say to many, many hours of podcasts
about people who who have, they're trying to diagnose some
of them in an autopsy, others, others are just trying to pull
it apart and see like what's up.Like, why, why can't he finish

(27:32):
it? Why is it so hard?
And I mean, the narrative dead is massive.
The character chapters are constrictive and perhaps the
gentleman doesn't have patience for it anymore.
But it's like, that's why you got to pick your, your
perspectives very, very carefully.
Because if you keep, you know, you, if you write, paint
yourself into a corner or write yourself into a corner, as it

(27:53):
were. My, I'll be brief.
I promise. My thing with character chapters
that I dislike is that there forme, there are chapter 1.
Every time you start a new character, it's like you're
starting a chapter one of a, of a, of a book 'cause you got to
die. It's not just the character you
got to die all the characters world in.

(28:14):
So there's a lot of like introductory stuff and, and you
know, it's, it's, it's like for some people that's great, but I
don't know that George could sustain it.
Anyway, sorry about the long windedness, but I if I could go
on and on about that man. I'm tying one arm behind my back
here. Heidi the Nick.

(28:36):
Yes. So two things.
To the first point, in terms of can you learn as much about a
character, I think I think of itkind of like this.
If you if there's a crime and you you need, if you have one

(28:58):
witness, you only get that one witnesses perspective, which is
faulty. You know, we have third person,
you start getting more perspectives on what's
happening. So it gives you a much better
idea of what's actually happening.
So, and they're not necessarily going to match up per SE, but
they they're going to give, say the jury, the reader a better

(29:21):
perspective of what actually happened.
So in a way, I think third person gives you more, gives you
more insight into the character.And again, you know, I would, I
would add on to this, you know, how well does any one person
actually know themselves? So sometimes you need that sort

(29:42):
of omniscient God over there whocan sort of clarify things a
little bit. Oh gosh.
So the other point I would make in regards to what?
Oh, shoot, sorry. The other point I would make is
that what to Ricky was saying interms of character development

(30:05):
chapters, you know, it should bekind of a combo.
A chapter where you're introducing a character should
also be giving you information about the plot, right?
I mean, there has to be both of those things happening if it's
just about the character, you know, it sounds like, I mean, I
don't think that works terribly well.
I mean, it, it has to be the thecharacters relationship to the

(30:30):
story. And so you're sort of feeding
two things it's you know what I mean?
You're telling you're giving information about the character
and you're giving information about the story.
But I just, I mean, that's how Ithink it should work.
I'm, you know, I'm, I'm eager tohear what you guys have to say.
Hey, OK, I'm not going to go down this tangent.

(30:51):
I promise I'm not going to derail Michaels.
He wants to talk about George RRMartin indefinitely is what he
wants to do. Yes, I, I, I really want to
mount Timeless. We should have another space to
do the autopsy because 'cause I respect Michael and his and his
space too much. We can't go too far down this
team. We are constantly doing an
autopsy on George Martin, Tolkien, Star Wars.

(31:20):
These are perpetual topics. We've been here before.
We're going in circus. We're going to be here again, I
promise you. Yes, but just so yeah, we we in
Mount Timeless, we can talk about this some more, but on the
topic of I think it's relevant to Mike's space here about how
Martin uses the different POV characters in the chapters.

(31:41):
You know, yes, obviously he starts to introduce brand new
characters like halfway through.That's annoying.
That's a whole other problem. But some of the main characters,
he starts to give different title names.
You know, it'll be like Arya, Arya, Arya, Arya, she has 20
chapters and then all of a sudden like the 4th book she's

(32:02):
called, like there's a chapter titled, I don't know, like, like
the horse faced girl or something like that.
Like he gives a different title name.
And he's always talked about or always he's mentioned at some
point about how he's deliberate with why he's choosing the, the
chapter titles that he uses. I believe that he's doing this
at least with the main characters, because each of them

(32:26):
are kind of going through an identity crisis, like they
started, you know, a place of comfort.
They they all go on their hero'sjourneys.
They get thrust in the unknown and they kind of have to cycle
through these different identities before they're
learning who they are. So it's even the title names
changing of the chapters is sortof a way that he's doing
characterization itself, if thatthat's my theory anyways.

(32:47):
And I, I think there's a method to the badness and I think it
works. I think having each of these
chapters per character again, aswe talk about how we're using PO
VS, you know, for characterization, I love it.
It's, it's working for me. I don't care about this brand
new character from Dorn that's like been introduced, you know,
5000 pages in. That's another discussion.
But the POV chapters work and even changing the names.

(33:10):
I, I think I see what he's doing.
So I'll, I'll defend Martin. Still, I am the only guy.
You're Martin stop guy out on the timeline.
It's a, it's an interesting hillto die on, but I, I respect it.
I, I, I, I do, I do respect it. And there is something to be
said about the characterization that that can occur because I, I

(33:31):
know what you mean. Like, see, Sansa is eventually
with when, when she's travellingwith Baelish after the moon door
thing. And after he, he takes, he
seizes the veil, basically. Spoiler alert.
But eventually she pretends thatshe's Elaine, who is supposedly
his bastard daughter. And they're I, I, I haven't read

(33:54):
that in a minute so I forget exactly where they are in
Westeros. But she's, she's acting, she's
learning everything. She all the lives of King's
Landing are coming back and she's creating a persona where
she has to be this this, this young maiden that doesn't exist.
And it is actually flying in theface of her entire disposition.

(34:19):
And so it's interesting. And I mean, you could do that
without character chapters. You know, you don't need that
that device in order to accomplish the same thing.
It just, it makes it kind of cool.
It kind of justifies using the character chapters, I suppose.
And there's the you're on Greyjoy thing with what's his

(34:42):
name? The, the, the, the damp pair or
whatever his name is. There's I, I love the, the
Greyjoy stuff. I could, I could, I could read
that all the time, you know? I'm fine with all of this
discussion in general because itgets after a literary concept

(35:04):
and also is a currently relevanttopic in the world.
And you know, let's be honest inperpetuity, you know, we're,
we're never gonna get away from these ideas of point of view and

(35:26):
having to make these sorts of decisions in regards to
storytelling. And also because of the the
variety of media that we're creating and consuming, we are
constantly as storytellers, as writers, as film makers, as

(35:48):
media creatives, we're always pushing ourselves into the space
where we have to make those decisions.
And you know, just to round backto the the point I was kind of
alluding to in terms of an audiobook.
And it, and it also came up in regards to the experience of an

(36:10):
audio book when you're doing saya, a narration only read in
comparison to say, an audio drama production that has a
bunch of different stuff. I think that you can you can
create texture and immersion foryour listeners with the sound

(36:37):
effects or through a multi voiced production in a way that
narration only even with a greatnarrator who can do all sorts of
accents and and voices and things like that does not
necessarily capture. It's a it's a totally different

(36:59):
thing. You know, for me doing these
reads versus producing an audio drama as I am right now in the
middle of trying to get one wrapped up.
And I'm looking at this story that started as a video and has
all these sound effects and it has all this music.
And I'm pulling this stuff into this new session and finding

(37:20):
it's like, well, some of that stuff I don't need, it doesn't
work. Or where I created much more
music to basically become a soundtrack and a score for the
film. A lot of that becomes kind of
superfluous. It's just not necessary inside
of an audio drama production. It becomes a distraction.

(37:42):
And also the timing of what I was doing when I was writing
that music for the the video does not line up the same way in
the read. So it's just not viable that
way. That doesn't mean that you can't
use little bits of it or there's, you know, sound effects

(38:02):
textured into the video that you're ripping out.
All of this I'm saying merely asa, as a point of getting after
the immersion element for the experience where it's like, OK,
if you just want to hear the story, that's an option.
If you want something that's a little bit more, I, I hate to

(38:23):
keep using the word immersive, but that is more encompassing of
the, the video version of the story, that's available too.
And I think it's a good challenge for anybody.
Obviously, if you're writing novels, this has God bless you
if you go through with it to, todo an audio drama production

(38:47):
because it is plenty of work. But if you did, maybe if you
just challenge yourself to say maybe a chapter even and just
try to try to do that productionof a chapter.
Or if you had a short story and you're converting that over to
an audio drama. I do think these are great
challenges to apply yourself towards and see what you're up

(39:11):
against inside of this adjacent vehicle for storytelling and
writing. You know, just some thoughts
that I had as I'm in the middle of it.
You're in the middle of it. Yeah.
I'm mad at myself because I havebeen messing around with this
audio book for far too long. So yeah, I I will.

(39:35):
I will echo the IT is so much work to put an audio book
together. It's plenty of work, and again,
it's. More than plenty.
And the stuff I'm doing is short, but he, you know, let's
in your defense, this is your first audio book and you've had
a lot of heavy lifting in terms of technology, hardware and

(39:58):
software performance compatriotsand and all the rest.
So you know as I have said very solid first effort inside of all
of that I don't want to say. The first word that came to my

(40:19):
mind, but let's use the second inside of all of what it is
taking you to get to the the doorstep of releasing this audio
book. Yeah, I'm going to get done.
I've had it. I'm mad at myself.
This is this is my, my statementthat I am going to finish this

(40:39):
blasted thing. I've had it.
I'm done. What do we say?
So yes. Get it done.
Here we go. I'm saying it in public just.
To. Humiliate myself if I don't
finish this blasted thing up in the next couple of months.
It's basically done already, youjust have to do some punch
insurance. It is basically done.
I'm just doing the final listen.Yeah, but that still demands

(41:02):
time. Yes, it still demands time.
And it's like it's going to be probably I'm, I was working on
it this morning because like I said, I'm just, I've had it with
myself. So 20, I'm in chapter 20 and
that's over six hours. And there are 46 chapters in the

(41:22):
book. So that's just the runtime.
That's not the amount of time that went into doing the
project, Yeah. Wait, what's the runtime did you
say? For the 1st 20 chapters and it's
the total book is 46 chapters at20 chapters where it's six
hours. Yeah, something to consider.

(41:43):
So that's a little under half. So it'll probably be like 1314
hours, maybe 12:00-ish. I'm not somewhere in there.
My luck, it'll be an even a lucky 13, right?
So, and my estimation for the recording sessions is that
you're basically 4:00 to 1:00. So if you have six hours of

(42:07):
produced audio, you maybe spent 24 hours to get those six hours.
And that's not including editing, which is a totally
different thing. I have not necessarily even
begun to quantify the amount of time to do editing, which is at
the very least one to one because you got to listen

(42:29):
through every moment of what yourecorded.
You generously also pointed out that it's taken me longer
because I had to learn how to doeverything.
That's all right. So that's the onboarding part
that you know, only happens once, but it takes a
considerable amount of time. Well, hey, if you're lucky,
you'll forget stuff and you can learn it all over again.

(42:50):
I I am a lucky person. I want to throw that out there
right now. I have the best of luck.
And let's not even talk about necessarily the way that you
learned it might not be the optimal way to perform some of
the tasks. So there's we're.
Not. Going to go.
There's a learning curve and then there's learning curve.

(43:11):
That's OK, we'll go there. Eventually we'll get there.
Any thoughts on any of those things for the folks hanging
out? If you would like to come up and
discuss what you're working on or have thoughts or comments,
this is your chance. You just hit that microphone and

(43:32):
then you get to come up to stageand share your thoughts here on
the program, which is every two weeks, writing, publishing and
authorship. Same time.
I did change the time a month ago.
I had to, I had to change the time unfortunately.
But usually, you know, 90% of the time, this is the time that

(43:54):
we do it every two weeks. Heidi and I also have been doing
the writer's block for like a year now, basically almost a
year. And Ricky has been been joining
us to Co host as well. So we've got a good program over
there which is on Tuesdays, midday for those based in the

(44:15):
US. If you're looking for more
thematic discussion. This is very much a just a
hangout Rif session. And ideally we get after some
literary points, some writing craft, ideally some aspects of
publishing and authorship shouldthe muse find us.

(44:39):
But this is really much more casual.
We don't have an an outline hereor any goals, you know, besides
having a good time. Are you guys having a good time?
That's I suppose we should push,push that out into the ether.
We got a thumbs up. We got one thumbs up.

(45:00):
That's not bad. 30, 3% of the people on stage.
Wait, OK, we're at 100%. This is fantastic.
This is we have quorum. I think at this point, you know,
what else are you guys working on?
What else? What else are you considering
focused on? You know, don't make me do all
the heavy lifting. I'm not here to talk.

(45:21):
Ricky, what's that book you posted down there?
That is the book of Mass Roth, volume one.
That is the beginning of the Eternity series.
It's a fantasy novel, sort of a lit RPG about the germ God, the
Lord of abominations, Mastrath Amrald Agonorius, the King of

(45:42):
Grief, some call him. He's just your usual typical
glowing green eyed, black clad sorcerer gene gene sorcerer,
biomancer Weaver of synthetic intelligence.
And the Book of Mastro's series is his origin, his origin story.

(46:05):
And the Book of Dragon, which I'm writing is the sequential
sequel to to after to the whole thing.
I mean, Mastro's the character in that one.
So anybody that's listening to my reads of the Book of Dragon
would probably want to lay theirhand on on that one.
There's two of them up on Amazonand soon to be a third, God

(46:25):
willing, my editor and my layoutpeople just got back to me
earlier in the week, I should say probably late last week
about that. And there's a fourth one.
And I wrote these about 10 yearsago, starting about 10 years
ago. And I had a blast.

(46:47):
And I'm having a blast with Dragon too.
There's they're all fantastic, like a dream come true.
Thank you so much for asking. I appreciate it.
Well, I saw it down there. You're more than welcome.
Yeah, I feel like we don't necessarily get after some of
the nuts and bolts of the stuff that we release inside of that.

(47:09):
And Ricky particularly has been hand spinning this yarn, this
into, you know, whatever your favorite garment might be,
massive world building. Kimberly, we we just we lost

(47:29):
her. She was up and then we were
about to introduce her so she could talk and now she's back
down. That's unfortunate.
Well, you know, raise your hand again if you want to come back
up. That's how it goes.
There's still time. Wait up, wait.
Here we go. This is now we can.

(47:53):
We can do it again. All right, You better be ready.
Here you go. Kimberly.
You are connected. Hey, I'm not quite sure I'm
enjoying listening everything. There it goes.
Every time I I go to talk I get a disconnect.

(48:13):
Not quite sure what's happening with this, but anyway, I've
written so many shorts and I wrote a a book, a secular book
when my church fell apart and I wrote it took me like 3 years on
the destruction of gossip, one might say misinterpretations.

(48:38):
And people have always asked me to, you know, just publish it.
But I guess where my lack of momentum comes to my writing is
my own interpretation and criticism.
Criticism of my own writing, if that makes any sense.

(49:02):
I don't even know if I said thatproperly or not, but.
It does. It's a paralysis.
Yes, right. But I wake up with this idea and
I write them down and I can create so many different stories
based upon them, but I never move forward.

(49:23):
And I'm now in a place in my life where I just want to move
forward. So any suggestions, any guidance
and, and the way that I might start doing that would, I would
appreciate. I, I, I just admire people that
just move forward with their passion and, and go for it.

(49:44):
Whereas I do little bits and pieces of everything and I never
accomplished anything either, you know?
You got to focus, you got to finish it, and you got to put it
out there and just get it done. You know, basically, you cannot
linger on the insecurity of the peanut gallery.

(50:08):
You know, we're all going to putthe slop out there, and the hogs
love the slop. Give them the slop.
OK, It's fine. Maybe one of your things turns
into a hit then. That's fantastic.
We cannot predict what of our works are going to find an

(50:30):
audience or take off. We, we, we can't now.
But you, we have to do the work to discover and find out.
And if you do get a hit, well, then, you know, then you're on
base. Maybe you got to figure out how
to advance the runner. You know, that's the whole
thing. I don't know who raised your
hand first. Was it Heidi?

(50:50):
Was it Ricky? I feel like it kind of happened
in tandem. But you know, you guys know, you
know, you know who it was. I think Ricky went up before I
did OK. Well, Kimberly, we're sort of
reversed. You and I, I, I actually wrote
my first, I say Christian in thesense that it's the Christian

(51:13):
genre, but it's, it's really a, a politics book of politics and
theology about Western, Western Christianity.
I wrote my in other words, most of my books are secular quote UN
quote secular books. But if you want to reach out in
DMI have workshops. If you're looking to move a

(51:34):
project ahead, I'd love to be ofassistance.
Not to be too forward, but you're you're literally asking.
It almost sounds like there's like a stalled project or a
stalled process like a stalled method.
And I have workshops that could hopefully assist you in that
matter. My my website is it's almost

(51:58):
there every everything moves like molasses in winter, but
it's not I have wonderful peoplewho are helping me.
It's just life. Life is very busy.
But by all means that me and reach out and I'd love to assist
you if I if I can, if you're willing so.

(52:18):
Also, Ricky hosts Spaces as wellwhere he does this exact thing,
and you might find some use in bringing your work to one of
those sessions to do some reading and maybe bounce the
ideas around with other folks. They're just a suggestion and
I'm telling you what to do. But, you know, take take
advantage. Heidi's got her hand up.

(52:40):
I, I will just, I will throw this out.
I, I feel you. I was like that for a very long
time where I never really managed to connect.
And I finally came to the to thethinking came around to the sort
of thinking where I was like, I don't care.
I'm just going to put out a mediocre, crappy book.

(53:02):
It'll still be 100% better than everyone else who hasn't put
anything out at all. So I mean, obviously my goal
isn't to write a mediocre book, but I just, I just stopped
caring. So I mean, you just and Michael
said that to you, you literally have to stop caring about the
peanut gallery. You just have to care.

(53:24):
You just have to want to do the work.
That has to matter more, that ithas to matter more.
You have to decide that it matters more to you to do this
that that, regardless of what anyone thinks of it.
It's a mindset, I guess maybe Ricky, when I'm sure Ricky and
his maybe and can, you know, figure out, figure out what it

(53:46):
is that gets you there. For me, it was actually when my
cousin died rather dramatically and and, you know, he had a
massive heart attack. You know, he was my he's in my
age group, right. So, well, he's a little bit
older than me. But the point for me was I
started realizing, you know, there's only so much time.

(54:08):
You know, time is not is not going to wait for you to figure
this out, you know, so you know,hopefully, you know, you don't
need something jarring like that, but I would just suggest
finding how to get into that mindset.
I don't know if that helps or not, but that's kind of where

(54:28):
you got to go. Yeah, those are good points that
that Heidi made. Being that you're a theist, I
don't want to make assumptions of denomination, but it seems
like you're a Christian. I don't normally talk about this
matter because I don't want to bother people who are or atheist

(54:51):
or agnostic, but my writing is aspiritual practice I have.
I have a dream of being a novelist that was impressed upon
me. The story is long so and I'm I'm
event I want to maybe write one day.
I sort of have a novel outlined that it's biographic, but it's

(55:15):
not fun to write because it's about me and I don't even care.
So I don't know. But the point being is that I,
when I write a chapter, I, I incorporate a spiritual
component where I'm connected towhat I call the transcendent
force. And you can call it God.

(55:35):
You can call it, you can call itvery, but transcendence and
timelessness is what art is madeout of.
The more of those things, the better the art is.
When you go and you're walking through a art gallery and you're
looking at all these beautiful paintings or pieces, like if
it's a suit of armor or whateverit is, you're looking at

(55:56):
timelessness, you're looking at transcendence, you're looking at
something that is beyond that, beyond this, that transported
quality, you know, it fuels the escapism and it fuels immersion
and, and the exploration of unconsciousness, which is where
all this great significance dwells.

(56:18):
It's where inspiration comes from.
It's where it arises. So you have access if you are a
theist and you have that faith. Not everyone does.
But if you'd like, every time I write a chapter, I, I, I'm
grateful to that, to that force.I'm grateful to God, you might
say. And I expressed that.

(56:38):
And I don't make it about me. I make it about unconscious and
conscious about temporality and timelessness.
You just if it I, I don't know, like I said, I could probably
amplify it, amplify it more as far as what I mean by that, but
I don't want to. I don't want to take over the
whole space. You know, maybe tomorrow I'll

(56:58):
try to. I have a show tomorrow at 3:00
PM Eastern Time. It's Mount Timeless podcast
writing overview, creative overview.
I do with Tom Tiernan. So if you're open at that time,
swing on through and remind me of what we're talking about.

(57:19):
Maybe I could blow it up a little bit, you know?
This is your chance. We are in the homestretch,
ladies and gentlemen. Let's offer some final thoughts
for Heidi and Nicholas. Let's keep them brief, you know.
OK, I know you need to go. Tighten it up.

(57:40):
OK, just quickly, Kim. Yeah, I'm, I'm a Christian and
my writing is deeply influenced by it.
And I, I'll just throw out that I'm, I'm going to agree with
Ricky. It's like it, it feels like a
calling, you know, fruits of thespirit kind of thing.
So I will, you know, and it's that that thing about the, the
parable of the talents. If you know that parable, I view

(58:02):
it from that perspective as well.
So I will leave it at that. I know Michael needs to go, I
don't know, check his tomatoes or something.
So I will see y'all later. Thank you.
We finished, I finished really fast.
Nice. Nicholas, are we?
Are you there? Yes, hello.

(58:23):
Sorry, we're just speaking to myheart.
I, I feel like my story, which I've been writing for about 10
years, is it, it's like something that I discovered
that's I didn't create it like it was there.
And it's, I'm just, I'm just a conduit that it's coming
through. Here's a quote from Nietzsche.
This will take me maybe just 30 seconds to read.
He says, has anybody at the end of the 19th century a distinct

(58:46):
conception of what poets of strong ages called inspiration?
If not, I will describe it. If one had the slightest residue
of superstition left in one, onewould hardly be able to set
aside the idea that one is merely incarnation, merely
mouthpiece, merely medium of overwhelming forces.
The concept of revelation in thesense that something suddenly,

(59:08):
with unspeakable certainty and subtlety becomes visible,
audible, something that shakes and overturns one to the depths,
simply describes the fact. 1 hears, 1 does not seek, 1 takes,
1 does not ask. Who gives a thought flashes up
light like lightning, with necessity unfalteringly formed.

(59:29):
I never had any choice and I think that that hits the nail on
the head. Fitting well read.
I want to give you the choice that I never had.
This has gone well and you know we'll be back here in two weeks.
Tuesdays. Join Ricky, Heidi and myself on

(59:52):
the writer's block if you would like.
We talk thematically, We talk about all kinds.
So I'm going to tell you what wewill be discussing on this
coming Tuesday. I'll tell you right now, Oh my
gosh, we are back into the writing hero's journey.
We're going to be talking tests,allies and enemies.

(01:00:13):
So that I'm actually looking forward to that.
I should have remembered that 'cause I looked at it yesterday
just to. Peer ahead around the corner for
a minute. As it turns out, you know I do
appreciate you taking the time today.
Huge news in the world of sumo. As it turns out, Ozeki Ono Sato

(01:00:38):
was promoted to the rank of Yokozuna.
He is the 75th Yokozuna Japanesenative.
We've had a, a run of Mongoliansand you know, I think it's, I
think it's appropriate that there is a, a young man who is

(01:00:59):
just very dominant right now. Looks like he's got years ahead
of him. He's already got 4 Emperor's
Cups under his belt and you know, we look forward to his
performances going forward. Potentially the a rivalry
between Ono, Sato and Hoshodu. This could be, this could be,

(01:01:24):
this could set up, you know, thenext five years potentially of
just great sumo at the top ranks.
Anyhow, that's all for today. I do appreciate you taking the
time, and we'll talk again before too long.