July 7, 2025 • 51 mins
In this session, we recap the Summer Book Sale, discuss audiobook production, and consider the value of having a series of books to promote.
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(00:00):
Couple things for folks listening to the recording.
New Writers Workshop article up on Sub Stack.
One a month. Subscribe, get it sent directly
to your inbox. Also, the recording from 2 weeks
ago is available on all of your favorite podcast platforms.
(00:22):
Put out the new pre-order for next month's ebook and audiobook
pairing that will be exploring our National Parks Badlands.
Bunch of photos in the e-book version.
Obviously the audio book versionwill won't have any pictures.
No pictures in there, just a recap.
(00:43):
Some highlights from this month.I put out a remake of There is
Unrest in the Forest and AI filmshort I started I made last year
but I updated this year with some new tools.
Also Anunnaki origin of Samaria Hit I lost Heidi Anunnaki origin
(01:09):
of Samaria hit #1 on the new releases for Alien Contact.
Heidi, we have you back. Are you up on stage or do I have
to reinvite you? How has it been since the last
time I talked to you? Not much has changed in the past
short period. It's been fine, It's been fine.
(01:29):
The sun's coming out here, the fog's melting away.
Getting a little sunshine. That'll be nice.
Yeah, happy, happy about that. Yes, I am.
My tomatoes are growing. I'm.
Going to tell you something right now, it has been quite hot
over the last week and after this hangout session I got to
(01:52):
get outside and fertilize and water because some of the plants
are begging for water but also it's that time of the cycle for
fertilization as well. I need to do that too.
Yeah, give it a shot. I need to get some fertilizer
out there and you know, things are going pretty darn well right
(02:15):
now. Beautiful summer.
Yeah, it's very mild here, right?
Now it's been scorching for the last week here.
Yeah, well, I'm not complaining.It's kind of perfect, frankly,
because it's like lucky you're not cold and you're not hot.
Yeah, I'm starting to get tomatoes coming in.
(02:37):
I've got some Peppers coming in.I've got radishes coming in.
I've got what else is out there.All kinds of herbs are ready to
go. Yeah, a lot of stuff.
Yeah, beans are growing. We got cucumbers making their
way. Yeah.
(02:59):
All kinds of good stuff. Can't wait.
Very excited for that. You should share some pictures
of your garden. Make us all jealous.
Sounds really, maybe at some point we'll see.
I, I, you know, but right now I,I just am thinking about like,
man, I got to water these thingsbecause they, I haven't done it
yet today. Usually I'll do that in the
morning And I, I water a little bit every day for the plants
(03:20):
because some of them are still kind of young.
So I don't like to put the hose on them when they're little.
Yeah, I know. So I can water at this stage of
things, but it won't be too muchlonger.
I'll be busting out the hose on them.
We both have interesting publishing news in the sense of
(03:43):
getting audiobooks turned in andsubmitted for distribution.
And you know, Congrats to you ongetting yours turned in.
I know that doesn't mean approved and live, but I feel
good that yours is going to be approved and made live soon.
Well, you've listened to all of it and then the chapters that
(04:05):
were really problematic I re recorded.
So I think that was the best wayaround it to just re report it
then then to try and fix them. Yeah, you do what you can.
It just made the most sense. So I think I'll tell you, I
don't think I told you this. I, when I realized I was getting
(04:28):
that rumble sound in my recording and it was, it wasn't
this, it wasn't that. And I finally, you know, finally
figured out I, I just, I, I hit a wall because I couldn't figure
out what the problem was. I was like, I can fix this.
I will, I will do what I have to, but I can't figure it out.
It was just so randomly happening and I literally, I got
(04:53):
down on my knees and prayed and within 10 minutes my kids showed
up and said try these headphonesand fixed it.
And that's when I realized it was the port in the mic that was
causing it. So thank you God and and it went
and I was able to finish from that point on it just it just
(05:14):
went. We're very happy for you.
One year in production is a goodrun.
That that's way too long. It shouldn't have taken that
long, but but a big chunk of that was me, as you well know,
learning how to do it so and then making some some, some
(05:35):
mistakes that took time. Next one's only going to take a
fifth of the amount of time, luckily.
I know right I got it now I knowno I'm I mean that's not even a
joke. It's for real.
I mean, I, I need to upgrade my mic setup because my mic's we
discussed this my mic not good. It's not, you know, the right
the right thing to be using for an.
(05:56):
Well, it's fine for it, but you got a baby.
Something like that. Before we get too into the weeds
on the technical hardware thing,I want to say hi to Zach because
I don't think you've been on theprogram before, though we have
done a podcast with you and yourbrother to promote the books
that you guys release. Would you like to say hello,
(06:17):
promote anything? I know your volume three of your
series has come out or is comingout shortly.
You tell us. Yeah, I just, I just had to do
that. Yeah, perfect.
Excellent. Yeah.
Tell us all of the things, please.
All the things I got to be honest, I didn't hear anything
for. The last like 2 minutes.
Excellent. Well, let me recap here for you
(06:39):
and everybody else can listen again.
So basically tell us about the new book either coming out or is
released or pending with your brother in the series, anything
like that. And we can even get into the
book sale and and what not as wego.
(07:00):
Sure. Yeah.
So I believe my interview with you on speaker Cone was already
out. Oh yeah, last one.
Yes, so the book is called Toothand Nail.
It is the third in our post apocalyptic series.
When I say our I mean me and my brother Joshua.
(07:20):
It just came out June 20th, so we already saw some sales.
I was hoping that the base book sale would give us a little bit
of a boost because we put the first two books on sale and
obviously I was right. That worked out.
We saw some sales on all three of them, even picked up a couple
(07:41):
reviews already, which is alwaysnice.
Gives me a little bit more traction.
But where, you know, Josh is already starting writing his own
thing now. I think our interview with David
over on Earthquake the other dayreally convinced him to start
writing his own stuff. Because I've already got one of
(08:01):
my own books that I did that's Slipspace.
So Joshua was kind of like, oh, maybe I should have something to
my name too. But we're really happy with our
Continuum series. We love that it's a trilogy now.
We think there's more to come, but even if it takes us a while,
(08:22):
you know, it's nice to have the three books.
It's a very nice, complete feeling.
To say, yeah, I've got a trilogyof my books out and you know,
people are reading all three of them feels really good.
Yeah, it's awesome man Congrats.Very happy for you guys.
And you know, I assume that we'll see more either
coordinated writing from the both of you or particularly
(08:46):
within the world that you've started because I feel like
you're going to get more ideas and things will pop up inside of
there. Oh yeah.
Oh yeah. Funnily enough, we actually for
the first time in a while, we sold one of our a copy of our
spin off novella that we wrote, which is just it's like related
(09:08):
to this series. It's not in one of the mainline
sections on Amazon, but it was, it used to be a Kendall Vella
story. It's called Dead Capital and
it's about a character from book2 that we spun off and took to
Washington, DC just to kind of explore that corner of, of our
world. And like I said, it was a
(09:30):
Kendall Vella story and then Kendall Vella shut down.
So I thought, well, why not justconvert it to a quick like
15,000 or less word, you know, novella.
And so that's what I did and I didn't expect much of it.
You know, I didn't really get a whole lot of attention right
away, but it was there. And this sale actually helped us
get that one off the grounds. Now that one has a review and.
(09:53):
Congrats. We sold it, so it it's the whole
series I think is going to benefit and I'm excited to see
how much more we can do with it.This is something that Heidi and
I talk about kind of regularly is like hitting critical mass,
you know, with having enough material out there for people
that are interested in your workto really fall in love with the
(10:15):
work. And just like continue to to
read more and more of it. And to say, like, if you're if
you've announced a series but you only have one book out, then
we all know some people who havea problem finishing their
series. I've been told that so I, I
stopped. I I think the mistake is don't
(10:36):
market a series as a series on book 1, you know, tell people
once it's done. I think it's the approach.
Well, if you've got two books out in the series, you are going
to have to market it as a series.
Well, OK, at that point, but not, I mean, but it's like I was
flat because I'm working on a series, right?
So I was flat out told, well, I have a friend who who's really
(10:59):
interested, but they're going towait till all the books are out
because they don't want to have to wait for all the books to
come out, you know what I mean? Sure, sure.
But then I see someone like, youknow, JCM Byrne, he has his
Hybrid Helix series and he's just releasing a new book all
the time. I don't think he has a set
number for it. Like right now.
He's probably on book 8 or 9 or something.
(11:20):
And that's kind of how Josh and I are treating this series.
We don't really know for a fact where it's going to end.
We have a rough idea of what we want that final story to be, but
we just keep adding more stories.
And, you know, I think 3 is a good number to officially market
it as a series. But to say we need to finish it
(11:41):
first, I think that would be difficult just because there's
so many stories we could tell inthis world.
Well. I'd rather leave that open.
Yeah, I hear you. I mean, I, it's, it's kind of
it's, this was from a reader, not a writer, right?
So I mean, I, I think it's, it can be complicated.
And it's also, I mean for the onthe writing side, it can feel
(12:03):
kind of limiting like, because if, like you just said, we don't
know how far this is going to goyet.
You know, for me, I kind of, I, I think in groups of three.
So like I have a set of three and in the back of my mind I
have like another set of three, you know, maybe, you know, maybe
I'm a little influenced. I, I, I kind of like group like
(12:23):
that, I think. But that's just, you know,
that's how I think about it, youknow, and then maybe I have some
like ancillary things, like somenovellas that are ancillary to
the main. This is the first I'm hearing of
this second trilogy, Heidi. Well, let me finish.
That further I'm not. An idea, I have a background
idea and I'm I sort of like developing it.
(12:46):
I've got the some novellas, short novels that I would put as
ancillary to the main story. Does that make sense?
Yeah, totally. In the world.
So no, I get it. And it's sort of like, you know,
you it's again, I think it just comes down to critical mass.
If there's enough stuff out, youknow, enough of those pieces
(13:08):
available. And this is not necessarily all
of them. Folks stop thinking about I'm
not, I'm going to wait till it'sdone.
I'm going to, they start wantingto just kind of jump in.
I don't know. I think critical mass is the key
here. That's the best I can come up
with. Yeah.
I mean, they say the best, the best marketing strategy is to
(13:28):
write another book. That's what I've heard.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah.
So I mean, if you if you have a series going and you want more
attention on that first one or you want to make your marketing
more sustainable, like if you'repaying for ads, right, you only
got one book out, that's probably not going to turn a
profit book, pub ads or whatever.
(13:49):
But if you have a trilogy with aspin off or two whatever and you
market the latest one or you market the first one on sale,
that one ad could turn into three sales, which of course
would be profitable. So that's definitely the right
strategies to just keep going and put it out there.
(14:09):
Yeah, yeah, right. The concept that the first book
is once you have more second book, at least the first book
becomes your marketing and your loss leader.
So. Speaking of sales, Heidi chose
not to participate in the summerbased book sale.
How's it feel being left out in the cold?
(14:31):
Let's just preface all of that with Heidi was really
overwhelmed with trying to deal with her audio book and let a
few things go. How's that is that is that let's
let's preface it with that. It wasn't necessarily a
conscious decision so much as itwas a conscious decision to to
focus on on the thing that was making, you know, that that I
(14:53):
had to get done. And it that's just, and I just
let everything else fall to the side.
The audio book that you had no set release date for.
Yes, that's the one. I'm just dogging you.
Always a pleasure doing with my firstly.
His kindness and generosity are are just so overwhelming.
(15:13):
I just can never wait to get into a space with him.
And you're in a space with me like 2 to three times a week.
Yeah, think about that. You really do love it.
I clearly I clearly have some problems.
I'm just messing we've we have been looking forward to this
audio book for like a year. So it's like super awesome that
(15:36):
it is now basically stealing home from third base and about
to come out because we all get to like do our part and signal
boost this thing, which I've heard the entire thing.
I've listened to it from front to back, obviously.
Now Heidi went and re recorded acouple chapters on me.
I'm sure they're fine. I'm sure there's no major
(15:57):
differences in performance or presentation, production and
such. It sounds good.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
The major difference is the rumbles gone.
Well, I, I'll be honest with you, I wasn't hearing what you
were hearing. There were some I gave, I gave
Heidi like extensive notes chapter by chapter on the audio
quality and stuff like that. Little things to to fix and
(16:21):
whatnot. She was hearing something that I
wasn't. I am still not even confident
that was there because I never got those tracks, Heidi.
I never got to check them again.And you went and made more work
for yourself. But here's the thing.
It's done now. No, no, seriously, it it, it was
(16:43):
not you could I listen to them and, you know, three different
ways from Sunday, right? It was there and it was just
this low grade rumble and I, I know that part of it is because
my mic was breaking and I somehow limped past the finish
line with things. So let's I'm just hoping that
(17:06):
it, you know, if we get approvalin a couple of weeks, right?
Yeah, no, I, I, I have no doubt in my mind that they will
approve your book and it'll go live and then we'll be we'll be
tracking, we'll be tracking our own podcast session to promote
and, you know, getting that thing into other people's ears.
(17:27):
That's the important part. So you're.
Recording. You're recording it yourself,
the audio book. I did it.
Yeah. I, I did the audio, yeah, I was
going to do a dual narrative, but it didn't I, I realized it
was better to just do me because, you know, it was a
whole learning experience. So there was a bunch of, you
(17:48):
know, it would just this long convoluted story that I was,
this is part of the reason it took so long is I, you know, I
had to figure out how to to bestpresent the book and my initial
vision was flawed, shall we say.Your initial vision was not
flawed, it was just ambitious. It was ambitious, but it wasn't
(18:12):
ambitious with the right people,shall we say.
Compatriot perhaps? Yeah, I, I mean, and that's,
that's huge, right? If you're you're working with
the people who aren't, I mean, how much do I want to say?
You don't. You don't have to say anything.
Hard to record an audio book. It's it's, it's a lot of work
(18:33):
and it demands that you, you know, it's just like writing a
book. You have to like, you know, be
willing to kind of make a fool of yourself.
And if you're not willing. Just because you didn't like my
read and told me to go fly a kite?
Yeah. You probably would have done
better. Damn.
(18:53):
It's not really your thing though, Michael, You're more of
a a straight narrator. You don't know what I can do
until I've done it, Heidi. Oh, no, now, now, now.
We're all going to be hiring. No, don't.
You're in trouble. Now you're going to have to
start acting. I have I have been a thespian on
(19:16):
the microphone before Heidi. Oh, British too, now he.
Told me now he told me. I told you that long ago.
I've I've done voice acting before.
Hello. You know, I don't pay attention.
Yeah, I know you don't. Heidi's world.
(19:37):
Oh well, I'm in. I'm in a well, I have a constant
state of distraction. What can I say?
It's fine. You're done now though, you've
gotten it all wrapped up. That's awesome and
congratulations are in order on the day it is released.
Yes, let's hope we have a very exciting July.
(19:58):
Indeed, yeah. Zach, are you considered
audiobooks? I have I, you know, it's the
same thing with me. I need to find the time for it
if I'm going to do it myself or I need to find the money for it
if I'm going to get some someoneelse to do it.
The interesting thing about our series is, like, we have a lot
(20:19):
of characters, and I've tried before to like, brainstorm in my
head as I'm writing or editing. I'm just like, OK, let me give
this person this voice and assume that they talk like this.
And like, you know, when my brother and I read out loud
together, sometimes I'll treat it like I'm doing the audio
book. And I'll.
(20:41):
Yeah, I'll try to perform it forhim.
And it's just, it's a, you know,I I commend you, Heidi, because
it's a really difficult thing togive everyone a distinct sort of
voice. Yeah, We have a character named
Kennedy who is from, from Boston, right.
And he's this detective character.
(21:01):
And I've tried to land a voice for him so many times, and it's
so hard to give him that Boston,sort of.
Twang that authentic Boston. Yeah.
And still have that kind of hardboiled like detective attitude.
Like I've I'm having a real hardtime merging those too.
Good combo actually. Yeah, that is interesting.
(21:22):
Yeah, it's so difficult to mergethem together.
Here's something to think about though.
Additionally, so you kind of want to consider these aspects.
So you can do a straight narration where you're just
reading the story. It doesn't need to be voiced at
all. Then you can do a fully voiced
(21:45):
production where you're doing characters, or you can do a
multi voiced production where you have different readers
coming in and performing things.We could do an audio drama.
So what I often do for my fiction is I'll do a narration
only and then I will do an audiodrama, which is basically a
(22:05):
bunch of sound effects. Sometimes that audio drama is
fully voiced in the sense that Iwill do accents for the
characters, but not all the time.
So there's a lot of variables inside of that.
And I would say to take some of that into consideration in that,
you know, you could chip off little by little.
I know you have one stand alone novel out as well.
(22:29):
And like, it might be that you could do it the way that Heidi
has done, you know, knocking outchapter by chapter a little bit
at a time over the course of a long period of time.
And then you've got the thing, and then you can release that
and you know, who knows? Yeah, honestly, honestly, you're
probably right that it's probably more realistic to do an
(22:50):
audiobook for slip space just because it's right as right now
that is one book and it is on the shorter end.
I think it's 145,000 words. Holy good Lord, that's not a.
Shorter end For us, that's on the shorter end, right?
Our main series, because it's two of us writing, we tend to
have pretty big conkers. Our first book in the Continuum
(23:13):
series is over 200,000 words. Exhausting me just thinking
about lifting. It it's a post apocalyptic epic
is what we call. It certainly is an epic.
Yeah. The second one I think drops
back down to 160,000 and the third one we just finished I
think is 180 to 190. So we're, we're trying not to
(23:35):
write one just that long. You know, the first one I think
is going to stay the longest one, which I think is
acceptable. You know, it's introduces the
most and it's obviously the biggest story.
But Slipspace I think would be more realistic.
Like I said, 145,000 words, no sequel yet.
And it is just me who wrote it. So theoretically just me voicing
(23:59):
it is a little bit easier if I do decide to voice it right, I,
there is a chance that I say, well, I've got some money saved
up, let me hire somebody else that I trust to, to do it.
And that's kind of the big decision for me is do I want to
put in the work or do I want to put in the investment?
Put in the work. You think that's the better
(24:21):
idea? Yes, people would rather listen
to a book narrated by the author.
Interesting. Yeah, I would say it too.
I'll tell you, one of the experiences I had is it's like
unless is that they weren't ableto communicate, they, they
(24:41):
couldn't understand the materialenough to communicate it.
I guess saying it bluntly, you know, so I got in a position
where I was sort of almost micromanaging it, which nobody
wants to be in because everyone's confidence gets
destroyed. And you know, and I, I mean, I
have chapters that are male point of view and, you know,
(25:02):
they're like Cowboys. So it's like, you know, who
wants to listen to a woman talking like a cowboy?
But I'll be honest with you, when it comes to acting, I think
it's going to be a lot more easier for people to hear a
woman voicing a man than a man voicing a woman.
It's very hard for men to do that, right?
I think because it starts, it can it, some of them can do a
(25:22):
really good job. Some people not so much.
It can start to sound very. It just doesn't necessarily it's
it's harder, you know, you've got to be a better actor, I
guess. Would you agree with that,
Michael? No, but again, I I listen to a
lot of audiobooks predominantly.You listen, but that's what the
(25:45):
good narrator. Sure, right.
I don't want to listen to a audiobook with a bad narrator.
Nobody. So, so, you know, I've also done
female lines and performing theminside of my stories and other
stories. And you know, there's, there's
(26:09):
choices that you have to make, you know what I mean?
And you also have to be like, you have to be willing to
suspend your own personality within the personification of a
character and try and like servethe role, serve the line, serve
the character and remove your yourself, your inhibitions who
(26:33):
are not present in that story and should not be present in
that story from that performanceso that you can go to that
vulnerable space where you can embody the emotions of a thing
that's on the page. You know, and I'm not saying I'm
good, I'm just saying that's what you have to do, you know?
That's exactly what you have to do and, and you know, and it, it
(26:55):
becomes transparent to the listener if you're doing, if
you're not doing it or if you are or you are not doing it.
I do think, I do think when the author's reading it, I mean it,
not every author wants to do it,you know, You know, it just
depends, right? Some people just don't have,
that's just, they're just not going to do it.
And that's fine. But if the author can, I think
(27:16):
one of the things the reader gets is all of the nuance that
you wrote into it, exactly the way the author, you know sees
it, for lack of a better word. That I think your point, I think
that makes a lot of sense actually.
I guess if I did pay somebody todo it, I would have to be
really, really like in deep withthem through the whole process,
(27:39):
review every little step along the way and make sure they're
doing it how I how I envision it.
Let's say this too, Heidi workedwith somebody, was working with
somebody that had no previous experience doing narration and
VO. And it say you hire somebody
online who has previous experience in narration and VO,
(28:04):
they're going to, you're going to be able to get samples from
them to where you're able to evaluate their capacity.
And inside of that, like you don't want to be having to
micromanage every single little thing that's going on.
Like you want to get something that's like 90% there.
And if you then ask them to say like either like maybe fix up
(28:27):
some production or maybe do somepunch insurance here and there,
that's OK. But if you got to go through and
do line edits on an audio read, that's exhausting.
Like, I mean, I've done music and when you're doing puncheons
and you're doing vocals and stuff, that's how meticulous you
have to be for that. But with narration it like
(28:53):
please get through like a paragraph without having,
without needing direction, you know like it should not be that
way. And this and and to no fault of,
you know, I didn't know what I was doing when I started this
and I was like, I'm going to do this.
We're going to dual narrations be great.
And I was at, you know, at zero and started working with someone
(29:14):
who is also at 0, which was fine, But the problem was me
having to pull me figuring it out.
And I, I feel that I kind of hada knack for doing the narration
because 1, you know, I am the author and I know all the
nuance. I understood the story
completely, you know, so that's just an advantage.
(29:37):
But The thing is, I was in the exact position he's talking
about. And you don't want to be in that
position. It's, it's too much.
It's exhausting to have to micromanage someone.
So when I'm pulling this person up, it's like I, I can't, it was
just, I'm trying to think of the, it's exactly what Michael
was saying. It's too it's, you're not
(30:00):
getting anywhere. You're just in this car.
It's, it's frustrating and it's,it's sort of like trying to save
a drowning victim by almost drowning yourself.
Does that make sense? Sure.
Yeah. No, I see what you're saying.
It's the hope would be, right ifthis was a real professional,
that you could be there with them for the first couple
(30:26):
chapters maybe. And they get the gist of it.
Like, like you only give them that real intense guidance at
the very start. And then they pick up on that
and they say, OK, I'm going to do this the whole way through
the book. But ideally that would be how it
works. Now, that's not a guarantee,
right? That's not how it's always
going. To work well, no.
And you have to you, you have to, you know, choose wisely.
(30:50):
I mean, if it comes down to it, that's the best I can say.
Especially it like you say, you go through audible or ACX, you,
you do it through a contract. I just did it with someone that
I met. And, and, and in this person's
defense, it's not that they wereterrible, but it was just that
it was just, it was too taxing on me because I had I, I
(31:14):
couldn't, I couldn't keep them afloat and myself.
Does that make sense? So, so that was why I was like,
you know, I'm just, I'm going tocut my losses and just do the
whole thing because at this point I can, I can finish it on
my own. This is one of the reasons it
took me so long to do it is I, Ihad to learn how to use
(31:36):
audition, how to do all of this stuff.
And then I had to deal with trying to pull someone else up
to speed. And it was, it was just too
much. If I were to work with someone
again, I would definitely pick someone professionally.
But once you have that contract,say through ACX, if that's the
route you go, it's hard to get out of it.
(31:59):
So you have to be really, you know, choose wisely if you're
going to do that. And I mean, if you feel like
you, you need to micromanage it,that's not, you don't want to be
in that position. I mean, that's not someone you
want to work with. If you feel like you have to
tell them everything. It's and it's not and it's not
on them so much. It's because it's it's not, it's
(32:21):
not. That's more than you want to be
doing. It's just more than you want to
be doing, right. Especially with the big my
books, I feel I feel redeemed. I keep getting told my books too
long. It's only 120,000 words, man.
I'm I'm I'm a little novella next to what you're doing right.
But yeah, so, but I mean, give it a shot yourself.
(32:43):
Try doing it, doing a couple chapters yourself.
I had to do 1 chapter where I'vegot like 6 different men talking
to each other. Man, I don't know that I'm
perfect. I mean, I'm sure that it a more
professional narrator would havebeen able to really
differentiate their voices better.
But The thing is, it's very clear in the text who's speaking
(33:05):
because again, when I'm writing it, I have to make it clear for
someone who's just reading it who's speaking because I got 6
different guys having a conversation.
That's an interesting thing to note as well in regards to
performing an audio book and that informing how you write
going forward in the future. It's definitely affected how I
(33:26):
write because I'm aware of not only how I read, but doing short
stories and stuff where I know I'm going to be doing an audio
book production that's an audio drama.
And knowing that there's going to be sound effects, like I take
that into consideration when I'mwriting to say like, how can I
translate this into an audio experience?
(33:48):
And in in the production side where it's like, yeah, I'll do
the narration only thing so everything's got to be on the
page. But can I create moments within
this story that become really engaging soundscaping
opportunities too? Yeah, no, I could see that.
(34:09):
I mean, any kind of medium that you you translate to definitely
helps your writing. I remember when I was in college
and I had first gotten into writing, I had to write the
script, I guess the, the kind of, you know, overlay for a
(34:31):
comic book for one of my classesthat I was in.
And that was a really interesting experience because
the whole point is somebody's going to take what you've
written and turn it into images and translate that into
something visual. So you have to not only be
telling a cohesive story in general, but also be conveying
(34:53):
the imagery well enough that somebody's going to create those
images completely accurately to what you're trying to say.
And I think that was a big boostto my writing and my confidence
in my writing right from the start because it makes me think,
OK, visually, this is what I'm imagining when I type out the
(35:15):
scene, and this is what I want the reader to be imagining,
right? And so I assume doing it through
audio is a much similar process where you're kind of tackling it
from another perspective. And that in turn is going to
make you better. You're going to think more about
it when you write in the future.This, this will help me on the
(35:36):
audio side if I write it this way, and it'll help it come
across better through listening.I could totally see that.
You know one of the things too. I don't know if you ever read
your stuff as part of your editing process.
I know Michael's huge on this and I have to completely agree
with him. I found so many things as a, as
(36:00):
doing the audio book. It was like doing the most
thorough proofread ever. I mean, I just, I'm, I'm going
to use that as part of the process from now on because it's
just you, you, you, you hear it,you see it.
It really makes difference, you know?
Yeah. I mean, and I don't know about
(36:20):
you, it's like, oh, read aloud. It's like, well, I'll read aloud
for about 3 lines. And if I'm not recording, if I'm
recording it, then I'm paying attention, you know, then I'll
do it. But so it's, it just makes a
huge difference. I, I mean, that's just a, that's
a real just bonus, even if you don't even release it, but you
(36:41):
might as well, if you're going to go to that much trouble.
I don't know. But yeah, it's quite, I mean,
again. And one of the reasons I think
it, it took me so long is because of, you know, it was, it
was, it was a, a, a learning experience, as they say.
So yeah, way across the board. Totally.
(37:08):
It's interesting. I want to go back to just real
quick. I know you said male authors or
male recorders might have a harder time with female
characters. I was just thinking about, you
know, I, I don't listen to a lotof audiobooks, admittedly, but
the ones I do listen to are usually like big series that I
(37:29):
need to get caught up on. But like, I don't necessarily
feel like sitting down to read. And so one of those is the
Timothy Zahn Star Wars books. I've read most of them myself,
but there's a few that I haven't.
And so I've just been trying to to listen to them in my spare
time just to get through all of them.
And that voice narrator that they do for those Star Wars
(37:53):
books, He's he's really good at all the male characters like
Megan, very distinct. He gives characters little
accents that that set them apart.
But all the female characters sound the same.
And I don't know how common thatis.
That's just my anecdotal experience, but it is an
interesting, it kind of gives credence to what you said where
(38:16):
like maybe, maybe there is some struggle there.
Well, here's my opinion, kind ofhaving I listen to a fair I
listen to audiobooks for the same reason when I don't have
time to sit down and read, but I'm just like, I I want to know.
I want to know this story, right?
So what what I I've heard it done really well.
(38:42):
So sorry. So my neighbor just texted me.
I've heard it done really well and I'm trying to think of an
example of it done really well. You could listen to that won't
make you crazy. A lot of the romance novels do
And and I'm you know, the cheesysmutty romance novels do the
(39:03):
dual narration with male female,but they're but well, that's in
so you'll have the men will be voicing the women.
But when it's done poorly, it's it's it's what Michael was
saying. It's, it's the, it's the actor
not able to get outside of themselves.
They're not able to remove themselves from the equation.
(39:25):
And you can hear it. I don't know how else to say it.
I mean, and it's, it's being vulnerable enough to not be
yourself, to allow yourself to embody that character.
And I think that it's easier forwomen to do that because they're
not giving up their masculinity,I guess is the best way to put
it. But for men, it can be a
(39:47):
challenge. And that was one of the
challenges. I heard it was sort of like, I
mean, the first thing was it wasjust raising to trying to talk
in a falsetto where it's, you know, just talking really high.
It's like, well, you know, it's like just this man's voice
talking high. But you don't.
I don't think they necessarily need to do that.
It's more about the way they speak as opposed to whether or
(40:10):
not. They, they have a high voice or
a low voice, you know, because everyone thinks I'll just talk.
I'll just talk like this. I don't sound like a female.
But it's not that at all. It's, it's the intonation.
It's the way. That's the Monty Python school
of voicing women. Yeah, and it's funny when they
and they're doing it for that reason.
(40:31):
It's because it's funny as it's hysterical, but it's not real
funny when you have a serious female character, you know, or
they'll do an old lady will be all old clipped.
It's like they're not paying attention to the character.
They're just, they're paying attention to the archetype
maybe, or just to the, I don't know this, but something like
(40:52):
that. Yeah, I mean, I, I think.
You know, yeah. And that's where, well, that's
where it goes wrong, right? So the guys who do it well don't
necessarily try to change the register of their voice, but
they change the way they speak. Yeah, I, I think if you view it
as the character I'm voicing is a female, then you're trying to
(41:15):
sound like a female. And that's already in and of
itself, like, not necessarily a challenge, but it's like a goal.
Like, OK, I want to sound female, but if there's, you
know, so many female characters in the book, you kind of can't
look at it that way necessarily.You got to give them something.
(41:36):
Yeah, you got to think this is this character is a little more
gravelly, a little more raspy, alittle more Husky.
Like I guess you can't look at it as the very first thing
you're changing is my voice needs to become female.
Because at that point, how much more are you going to be able to
change if you're not a really, really good voice actor?
Well, the thing too, I think is I don't.
(41:59):
I mean, I can't say if I'm a good void actor, but voice
actor, but I think a bit more about the personality of the
character as opposed to the sound of their voice and the
sound of their voice comes out of their personality, right?
So if I have a character who's innocent, then what I'm trying
to portray is innocence, right? Or if I have someone who's wise,
(42:23):
I'm trying to portray wisdom. If I have someone who's a liar
or a cheat, I'm trying to portray that.
I'm trying to portray the content of their character more
than just what they sound like. Does that make sense?
I don't know. You guys agree with that,
Michael? No, I think that's a good place
to start. You really want to think more
(42:44):
about like the voice as an expression of the
characterization, as opposed to a voice as an expression of like
a generic gender. Yeah, and that's, that demands
certain level of intelligence from the person doing the work.
I mean, that's the thing to kindof try and flush out is it's
(43:06):
like, dare I say it, how smart is this person?
You know? I mean it, the whole experience
gave me a respect for actors. I never thought I would have got
to be honest, because you realize that they have to be.
(43:27):
I mean, there's always a fluke, but there has to be a certain
level of intelligence to be ableto to understand and portray
these characters effectively. I'm on any kind of acting.
I think I've learned over the past year.
A. 100% I agree. And it's tough, I think when
(43:52):
you're first starting to be ableto do that stuff.
You know, I've only been doing fiction for the last two years
or so. Maybe.
Yeah, 2, little over 2 years, I guess, maybe three years Max.
When I first started, well, I guess when I first started
(44:12):
tracking recording stuff was almost three years ago.
But the thing that I learn is that as I find new challenges
within it, not only for my writing, but doing other
material, is that I discovered new ways of using and applying
(44:35):
my voice within it. Because it's, it's, it's a
muscle and it's a skill and it'ssomething that you have to like
keep in shape in general as wellso that you can execute on what
you hear in your mind. And that's the thing too.
Like when I'm doing a read, likeI'll read a line multiple times
(44:58):
until I get something that I feel is appropriate.
Or sometimes I'll do multiple readings in the exact same
cadence and then chop that stufftogether in post in editing,
because I find that while I was recording it, I really liked one
(45:18):
part. Or I really liked one line
reading. I might like one part from 1:00
and another part from another. And more largely, I like the way
that those two things seat together in relation to the line
before and the line that comes after.
Stuff you learn. Sure.
(45:42):
I mean, it's just like writing, right?
You got to. You want the best result, You
got to redo it a couple times. Yeah, I mean it, it is you
absolutely do. I think, I think you know when I
I think I did the recorded the 1st chapter.
I will say hi Ness. I haven't seen you in a while.
I when I OK, but let me back up when I did it, I think I
(46:07):
recorded the 1st chapter like 5 or 6 times until I really got a
feel for it and then I had to learn the the editing process.
I think I probably by the end ofit, I got a lot better at it.
But it's just, it's like anything you're not going to
you're, you're, you suck at it until you're good at it.
(46:27):
You just have to kind of hang inthere.
I don't think I knew that you did the first chapter 5 or 6
times. I did, I did it a bunch of times
because I, I, well, it's not, itwasn't, I was trying to learn.
It was, you know, it was fun andI was trying to figure it out.
So I mean, there's, you know, I hadn't done it before, so I had
(46:49):
to keep going at it. So I mean, it is what it is.
You got to start somewhere. But yeah, that's the thing I
would say, I think, I think figuring, I mean, you're, you're
safe if you're doing the narration, if you don't like
what you're doing, you can micromanage yourself all you
want, but once you get someone else, that's the only thing I
would say. It's like, I would start out at
(47:10):
least playing around with it yourself so you get a feel for
what you want and then if you want to hand it off to someone
you know because of time or justwhat whatever reason, at least
you have an idea of what you're looking for.
Once you've done it some becauseyou then you understand the
process does that. I think that might be the best
way to approach it. Does that make sense?
(47:32):
Yeah, I mean, the thing for me again, like if you're recording
a chapter 5 or 6 times, it's effectively no different than
recording a line 5 or 6 times, you know what I mean?
It's the same amount of time. It's just that like I'm doing it
(47:52):
all in line in one take. I'm not necessarily like setting
up, breaking down, listening back and then having to do that
over and over and over again. Which, you know, I get it
because you were figuring out how to do all the technical
stuff. Yeah, it wasn't so much that.
I mean, it was more me figuring it out and that's what, you
(48:15):
know, it was. It was trying to learn
everything. And I did it by practicing on
that first chapter a bunch of times.
Plus it's the first chapter. What?
Plus it's the first chapter so you want to land it.
This is true. This is true.
That's your 5 minute thing. That's your, Your 5 minute
retail sample is the five first 5 minutes of the 1st chapter.
(48:38):
So you definitely want to land that one.
But I mean, that was the one I, you know, I had to practice.
So that was what I did to practice and listen back and
figure out how I'm recording things and all this stuff.
Now your voice is good. Thank you.
I, I, I, you know, lucky to haveit.
(49:00):
Well, this is when we usually begin to wrap things up for the
day. So are there any final parting
thoughts, words, comments, things that we should know
about? I appreciate you guys help for
sure. I appreciate the audiobook
advice. Definitely say it's in the
(49:21):
future somewhere. I got to get through some real
world stuff trying to build a career and and all that jargon.
But you know, once I'm once I'm on my feet and I feel like I
have the time or the money, it'sdefinitely going to happen.
And I think that'll be another big boost.
(49:44):
Like like you guys said, you know, you got to get that stride
going. And now that I've got three
books in this series, potentially is equal to
Slipspace coming at some point because that's top performing
book we've got then yeah, I think, I think we only go up
from here. So lots coming down the pipeline
(50:06):
and looking forward to seeing what's next.
Heidi comments. Thoughts.
I'm just I'm I'm still numb thatI finished the blasted thing and
it's in it's in review over at audible huge though I might my
audio book just. Your white whale?
(50:28):
Yeah, my white. I caught the white whale better
than Ahab. I got him.
Congratulations. God, so that I've got a novella
that I want to get out definitely this year.
It might be good. Maybe fall.
I mean, I it's pretty quick. It's about 100 pages.
I mean, it's not a long thing. And then I've got my second
(50:52):
book. I need to, I'm going to start
working on that in tandem. I think I can, I think that's,
but that's more, it's going to take a little longer.
That's that's the bigger one. That's another 400 pager.
So this is probably the rest of my year and I'm going to try
really hard not to write this novel that's pounding in the
back of my head and, and, and weigh myself down some more.
(51:14):
So that's those are my goals right now.
Very good. Well, hey, this has gone well,
and we'll talk again before too long.
Couple things for folks listening to the recording.
New Writers Workshop article up on Sub Stack.
One a month. Subscribe, get it sent directly
to your inbox. Also, the recording from 2 weeks
ago is available on all of your favorite podcast platforms.
(00:22):
Put out the new pre-order for next month's ebook and audiobook
pairing that will be exploring our National Parks Badlands.
Bunch of photos in the e-book version.
Obviously the audio book versionwill won't have any pictures.
No pictures in there, just a recap.
(00:43):
Some highlights from this month.I put out a remake of There is
Unrest in the Forest and AI filmshort I started I made last year
but I updated this year with some new tools.
Also Anunnaki origin of Samaria Hit I lost Heidi Anunnaki origin
(01:09):
of Samaria hit #1 on the new releases for Alien Contact.
Heidi, we have you back. Are you up on stage or do I have
to reinvite you? How has it been since the last
time I talked to you? Not much has changed in the past
short period. It's been fine, It's been fine.
(01:29):
The sun's coming out here, the fog's melting away.
Getting a little sunshine. That'll be nice.
Yeah, happy, happy about that. Yes, I am.
My tomatoes are growing. I'm.
Going to tell you something right now, it has been quite hot
over the last week and after this hangout session I got to
(01:52):
get outside and fertilize and water because some of the plants
are begging for water but also it's that time of the cycle for
fertilization as well. I need to do that too.
Yeah, give it a shot. I need to get some fertilizer
out there and you know, things are going pretty darn well right
(02:15):
now. Beautiful summer.
Yeah, it's very mild here, right?
Now it's been scorching for the last week here.
Yeah, well, I'm not complaining.It's kind of perfect, frankly,
because it's like lucky you're not cold and you're not hot.
Yeah, I'm starting to get tomatoes coming in.
(02:37):
I've got some Peppers coming in.I've got radishes coming in.
I've got what else is out there.All kinds of herbs are ready to
go. Yeah, a lot of stuff.
Yeah, beans are growing. We got cucumbers making their
way. Yeah.
(02:59):
All kinds of good stuff. Can't wait.
Very excited for that. You should share some pictures
of your garden. Make us all jealous.
Sounds really, maybe at some point we'll see.
I, I, you know, but right now I,I just am thinking about like,
man, I got to water these thingsbecause they, I haven't done it
yet today. Usually I'll do that in the
morning And I, I water a little bit every day for the plants
(03:20):
because some of them are still kind of young.
So I don't like to put the hose on them when they're little.
Yeah, I know. So I can water at this stage of
things, but it won't be too muchlonger.
I'll be busting out the hose on them.
We both have interesting publishing news in the sense of
(03:43):
getting audiobooks turned in andsubmitted for distribution.
And you know, Congrats to you ongetting yours turned in.
I know that doesn't mean approved and live, but I feel
good that yours is going to be approved and made live soon.
Well, you've listened to all of it and then the chapters that
(04:05):
were really problematic I re recorded.
So I think that was the best wayaround it to just re report it
then then to try and fix them. Yeah, you do what you can.
It just made the most sense. So I think I'll tell you, I
don't think I told you this. I, when I realized I was getting
(04:28):
that rumble sound in my recording and it was, it wasn't
this, it wasn't that. And I finally, you know, finally
figured out I, I just, I, I hit a wall because I couldn't figure
out what the problem was. I was like, I can fix this.
I will, I will do what I have to, but I can't figure it out.
It was just so randomly happening and I literally, I got
(04:53):
down on my knees and prayed and within 10 minutes my kids showed
up and said try these headphonesand fixed it.
And that's when I realized it was the port in the mic that was
causing it. So thank you God and and it went
and I was able to finish from that point on it just it just
(05:14):
went. We're very happy for you.
One year in production is a goodrun.
That that's way too long. It shouldn't have taken that
long, but but a big chunk of that was me, as you well know,
learning how to do it so and then making some some, some
(05:35):
mistakes that took time. Next one's only going to take a
fifth of the amount of time, luckily.
I know right I got it now I knowno I'm I mean that's not even a
joke. It's for real.
I mean, I, I need to upgrade my mic setup because my mic's we
discussed this my mic not good. It's not, you know, the right
the right thing to be using for an.
(05:56):
Well, it's fine for it, but you got a baby.
Something like that. Before we get too into the weeds
on the technical hardware thing,I want to say hi to Zach because
I don't think you've been on theprogram before, though we have
done a podcast with you and yourbrother to promote the books
that you guys release. Would you like to say hello,
(06:17):
promote anything? I know your volume three of your
series has come out or is comingout shortly.
You tell us. Yeah, I just, I just had to do
that. Yeah, perfect.
Excellent. Yeah.
Tell us all of the things, please.
All the things I got to be honest, I didn't hear anything
for. The last like 2 minutes.
Excellent. Well, let me recap here for you
(06:39):
and everybody else can listen again.
So basically tell us about the new book either coming out or is
released or pending with your brother in the series, anything
like that. And we can even get into the
book sale and and what not as wego.
(07:00):
Sure. Yeah.
So I believe my interview with you on speaker Cone was already
out. Oh yeah, last one.
Yes, so the book is called Toothand Nail.
It is the third in our post apocalyptic series.
When I say our I mean me and my brother Joshua.
(07:20):
It just came out June 20th, so we already saw some sales.
I was hoping that the base book sale would give us a little bit
of a boost because we put the first two books on sale and
obviously I was right. That worked out.
We saw some sales on all three of them, even picked up a couple
(07:41):
reviews already, which is alwaysnice.
Gives me a little bit more traction.
But where, you know, Josh is already starting writing his own
thing now. I think our interview with David
over on Earthquake the other dayreally convinced him to start
writing his own stuff. Because I've already got one of
(08:01):
my own books that I did that's Slipspace.
So Joshua was kind of like, oh, maybe I should have something to
my name too. But we're really happy with our
Continuum series. We love that it's a trilogy now.
We think there's more to come, but even if it takes us a while,
(08:22):
you know, it's nice to have the three books.
It's a very nice, complete feeling.
To say, yeah, I've got a trilogyof my books out and you know,
people are reading all three of them feels really good.
Yeah, it's awesome man Congrats.Very happy for you guys.
And you know, I assume that we'll see more either
coordinated writing from the both of you or particularly
(08:46):
within the world that you've started because I feel like
you're going to get more ideas and things will pop up inside of
there. Oh yeah.
Oh yeah. Funnily enough, we actually for
the first time in a while, we sold one of our a copy of our
spin off novella that we wrote, which is just it's like related
(09:08):
to this series. It's not in one of the mainline
sections on Amazon, but it was, it used to be a Kendall Vella
story. It's called Dead Capital and
it's about a character from book2 that we spun off and took to
Washington, DC just to kind of explore that corner of, of our
world. And like I said, it was a
(09:30):
Kendall Vella story and then Kendall Vella shut down.
So I thought, well, why not justconvert it to a quick like
15,000 or less word, you know, novella.
And so that's what I did and I didn't expect much of it.
You know, I didn't really get a whole lot of attention right
away, but it was there. And this sale actually helped us
get that one off the grounds. Now that one has a review and.
(09:53):
Congrats. We sold it, so it it's the whole
series I think is going to benefit and I'm excited to see
how much more we can do with it.This is something that Heidi and
I talk about kind of regularly is like hitting critical mass,
you know, with having enough material out there for people
that are interested in your workto really fall in love with the
(10:15):
work. And just like continue to to
read more and more of it. And to say, like, if you're if
you've announced a series but you only have one book out, then
we all know some people who havea problem finishing their
series. I've been told that so I, I
stopped. I I think the mistake is don't
(10:36):
market a series as a series on book 1, you know, tell people
once it's done. I think it's the approach.
Well, if you've got two books out in the series, you are going
to have to market it as a series.
Well, OK, at that point, but not, I mean, but it's like I was
flat because I'm working on a series, right?
So I was flat out told, well, I have a friend who who's really
(10:59):
interested, but they're going towait till all the books are out
because they don't want to have to wait for all the books to
come out, you know what I mean? Sure, sure.
But then I see someone like, youknow, JCM Byrne, he has his
Hybrid Helix series and he's just releasing a new book all
the time. I don't think he has a set
number for it. Like right now.
He's probably on book 8 or 9 or something.
(11:20):
And that's kind of how Josh and I are treating this series.
We don't really know for a fact where it's going to end.
We have a rough idea of what we want that final story to be, but
we just keep adding more stories.
And, you know, I think 3 is a good number to officially market
it as a series. But to say we need to finish it
(11:41):
first, I think that would be difficult just because there's
so many stories we could tell inthis world.
Well. I'd rather leave that open.
Yeah, I hear you. I mean, I, it's, it's kind of
it's, this was from a reader, not a writer, right?
So I mean, I, I think it's, it can be complicated.
And it's also, I mean for the onthe writing side, it can feel
(12:03):
kind of limiting like, because if, like you just said, we don't
know how far this is going to goyet.
You know, for me, I kind of, I, I think in groups of three.
So like I have a set of three and in the back of my mind I
have like another set of three, you know, maybe, you know, maybe
I'm a little influenced. I, I, I kind of like group like
(12:23):
that, I think. But that's just, you know,
that's how I think about it, youknow, and then maybe I have some
like ancillary things, like somenovellas that are ancillary to
the main. This is the first I'm hearing of
this second trilogy, Heidi. Well, let me finish.
That further I'm not. An idea, I have a background
idea and I'm I sort of like developing it.
(12:46):
I've got the some novellas, short novels that I would put as
ancillary to the main story. Does that make sense?
Yeah, totally. In the world.
So no, I get it. And it's sort of like, you know,
you it's again, I think it just comes down to critical mass.
If there's enough stuff out, youknow, enough of those pieces
(13:08):
available. And this is not necessarily all
of them. Folks stop thinking about I'm
not, I'm going to wait till it'sdone.
I'm going to, they start wantingto just kind of jump in.
I don't know. I think critical mass is the key
here. That's the best I can come up
with. Yeah.
I mean, they say the best, the best marketing strategy is to
(13:28):
write another book. That's what I've heard.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah.
So I mean, if you if you have a series going and you want more
attention on that first one or you want to make your marketing
more sustainable, like if you'repaying for ads, right, you only
got one book out, that's probably not going to turn a
profit book, pub ads or whatever.
(13:49):
But if you have a trilogy with aspin off or two whatever and you
market the latest one or you market the first one on sale,
that one ad could turn into three sales, which of course
would be profitable. So that's definitely the right
strategies to just keep going and put it out there.
(14:09):
Yeah, yeah, right. The concept that the first book
is once you have more second book, at least the first book
becomes your marketing and your loss leader.
So. Speaking of sales, Heidi chose
not to participate in the summerbased book sale.
How's it feel being left out in the cold?
(14:31):
Let's just preface all of that with Heidi was really
overwhelmed with trying to deal with her audio book and let a
few things go. How's that is that is that let's
let's preface it with that. It wasn't necessarily a
conscious decision so much as itwas a conscious decision to to
focus on on the thing that was making, you know, that that I
(14:53):
had to get done. And it that's just, and I just
let everything else fall to the side.
The audio book that you had no set release date for.
Yes, that's the one. I'm just dogging you.
Always a pleasure doing with my firstly.
His kindness and generosity are are just so overwhelming.
(15:13):
I just can never wait to get into a space with him.
And you're in a space with me like 2 to three times a week.
Yeah, think about that. You really do love it.
I clearly I clearly have some problems.
I'm just messing we've we have been looking forward to this
audio book for like a year. So it's like super awesome that
(15:36):
it is now basically stealing home from third base and about
to come out because we all get to like do our part and signal
boost this thing, which I've heard the entire thing.
I've listened to it from front to back, obviously.
Now Heidi went and re recorded acouple chapters on me.
I'm sure they're fine. I'm sure there's no major
(15:57):
differences in performance or presentation, production and
such. It sounds good.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
The major difference is the rumbles gone.
Well, I, I'll be honest with you, I wasn't hearing what you
were hearing. There were some I gave, I gave
Heidi like extensive notes chapter by chapter on the audio
quality and stuff like that. Little things to to fix and
(16:21):
whatnot. She was hearing something that I
wasn't. I am still not even confident
that was there because I never got those tracks, Heidi.
I never got to check them again.And you went and made more work
for yourself. But here's the thing.
It's done now. No, no, seriously, it it, it was
(16:43):
not you could I listen to them and, you know, three different
ways from Sunday, right? It was there and it was just
this low grade rumble and I, I know that part of it is because
my mic was breaking and I somehow limped past the finish
line with things. So let's I'm just hoping that
(17:06):
it, you know, if we get approvalin a couple of weeks, right?
Yeah, no, I, I, I have no doubt in my mind that they will
approve your book and it'll go live and then we'll be we'll be
tracking, we'll be tracking our own podcast session to promote
and, you know, getting that thing into other people's ears.
(17:27):
That's the important part. So you're.
Recording. You're recording it yourself,
the audio book. I did it.
Yeah. I, I did the audio, yeah, I was
going to do a dual narrative, but it didn't I, I realized it
was better to just do me because, you know, it was a
whole learning experience. So there was a bunch of, you
(17:48):
know, it would just this long convoluted story that I was,
this is part of the reason it took so long is I, you know, I
had to figure out how to to bestpresent the book and my initial
vision was flawed, shall we say.Your initial vision was not
flawed, it was just ambitious. It was ambitious, but it wasn't
(18:12):
ambitious with the right people,shall we say.
Compatriot perhaps? Yeah, I, I mean, and that's,
that's huge, right? If you're you're working with
the people who aren't, I mean, how much do I want to say?
You don't. You don't have to say anything.
Hard to record an audio book. It's it's, it's a lot of work
(18:33):
and it demands that you, you know, it's just like writing a
book. You have to like, you know, be
willing to kind of make a fool of yourself.
And if you're not willing. Just because you didn't like my
read and told me to go fly a kite?
Yeah. You probably would have done
better. Damn.
(18:53):
It's not really your thing though, Michael, You're more of
a a straight narrator. You don't know what I can do
until I've done it, Heidi. Oh, no, now, now, now.
We're all going to be hiring. No, don't.
You're in trouble. Now you're going to have to
start acting. I have I have been a thespian on
(19:16):
the microphone before Heidi. Oh, British too, now he.
Told me now he told me. I told you that long ago.
I've I've done voice acting before.
Hello. You know, I don't pay attention.
Yeah, I know you don't. Heidi's world.
(19:37):
Oh well, I'm in. I'm in a well, I have a constant
state of distraction. What can I say?
It's fine. You're done now though, you've
gotten it all wrapped up. That's awesome and
congratulations are in order on the day it is released.
Yes, let's hope we have a very exciting July.
(19:58):
Indeed, yeah. Zach, are you considered
audiobooks? I have I, you know, it's the
same thing with me. I need to find the time for it
if I'm going to do it myself or I need to find the money for it
if I'm going to get some someoneelse to do it.
The interesting thing about our series is, like, we have a lot
(20:19):
of characters, and I've tried before to like, brainstorm in my
head as I'm writing or editing. I'm just like, OK, let me give
this person this voice and assume that they talk like this.
And like, you know, when my brother and I read out loud
together, sometimes I'll treat it like I'm doing the audio
book. And I'll.
(20:41):
Yeah, I'll try to perform it forhim.
And it's just, it's a, you know,I I commend you, Heidi, because
it's a really difficult thing togive everyone a distinct sort of
voice. Yeah, We have a character named
Kennedy who is from, from Boston, right.
And he's this detective character.
(21:01):
And I've tried to land a voice for him so many times, and it's
so hard to give him that Boston,sort of.
Twang that authentic Boston. Yeah.
And still have that kind of hardboiled like detective attitude.
Like I've I'm having a real hardtime merging those too.
Good combo actually. Yeah, that is interesting.
(21:22):
Yeah, it's so difficult to mergethem together.
Here's something to think about though.
Additionally, so you kind of want to consider these aspects.
So you can do a straight narration where you're just
reading the story. It doesn't need to be voiced at
all. Then you can do a fully voiced
(21:45):
production where you're doing characters, or you can do a
multi voiced production where you have different readers
coming in and performing things.We could do an audio drama.
So what I often do for my fiction is I'll do a narration
only and then I will do an audiodrama, which is basically a
(22:05):
bunch of sound effects. Sometimes that audio drama is
fully voiced in the sense that Iwill do accents for the
characters, but not all the time.
So there's a lot of variables inside of that.
And I would say to take some of that into consideration in that,
you know, you could chip off little by little.
I know you have one stand alone novel out as well.
(22:29):
And like, it might be that you could do it the way that Heidi
has done, you know, knocking outchapter by chapter a little bit
at a time over the course of a long period of time.
And then you've got the thing, and then you can release that
and you know, who knows? Yeah, honestly, honestly, you're
probably right that it's probably more realistic to do an
(22:50):
audiobook for slip space just because it's right as right now
that is one book and it is on the shorter end.
I think it's 145,000 words. Holy good Lord, that's not a.
Shorter end For us, that's on the shorter end, right?
Our main series, because it's two of us writing, we tend to
have pretty big conkers. Our first book in the Continuum
(23:13):
series is over 200,000 words. Exhausting me just thinking
about lifting. It it's a post apocalyptic epic
is what we call. It certainly is an epic.
Yeah. The second one I think drops
back down to 160,000 and the third one we just finished I
think is 180 to 190. So we're, we're trying not to
(23:35):
write one just that long. You know, the first one I think
is going to stay the longest one, which I think is
acceptable. You know, it's introduces the
most and it's obviously the biggest story.
But Slipspace I think would be more realistic.
Like I said, 145,000 words, no sequel yet.
And it is just me who wrote it. So theoretically just me voicing
(23:59):
it is a little bit easier if I do decide to voice it right, I,
there is a chance that I say, well, I've got some money saved
up, let me hire somebody else that I trust to, to do it.
And that's kind of the big decision for me is do I want to
put in the work or do I want to put in the investment?
Put in the work. You think that's the better
(24:21):
idea? Yes, people would rather listen
to a book narrated by the author.
Interesting. Yeah, I would say it too.
I'll tell you, one of the experiences I had is it's like
unless is that they weren't ableto communicate, they, they
(24:41):
couldn't understand the materialenough to communicate it.
I guess saying it bluntly, you know, so I got in a position
where I was sort of almost micromanaging it, which nobody
wants to be in because everyone's confidence gets
destroyed. And you know, and I, I mean, I
have chapters that are male point of view and, you know,
(25:02):
they're like Cowboys. So it's like, you know, who
wants to listen to a woman talking like a cowboy?
But I'll be honest with you, when it comes to acting, I think
it's going to be a lot more easier for people to hear a
woman voicing a man than a man voicing a woman.
It's very hard for men to do that, right?
I think because it starts, it can it, some of them can do a
(25:22):
really good job. Some people not so much.
It can start to sound very. It just doesn't necessarily it's
it's harder, you know, you've got to be a better actor, I
guess. Would you agree with that,
Michael? No, but again, I I listen to a
lot of audiobooks predominantly.You listen, but that's what the
(25:45):
good narrator. Sure, right.
I don't want to listen to a audiobook with a bad narrator.
Nobody. So, so, you know, I've also done
female lines and performing theminside of my stories and other
stories. And you know, there's, there's
(26:09):
choices that you have to make, you know what I mean?
And you also have to be like, you have to be willing to
suspend your own personality within the personification of a
character and try and like servethe role, serve the line, serve
the character and remove your yourself, your inhibitions who
(26:33):
are not present in that story and should not be present in
that story from that performanceso that you can go to that
vulnerable space where you can embody the emotions of a thing
that's on the page. You know, and I'm not saying I'm
good, I'm just saying that's what you have to do, you know?
That's exactly what you have to do and, and you know, and it, it
(26:55):
becomes transparent to the listener if you're doing, if
you're not doing it or if you are or you are not doing it.
I do think, I do think when the author's reading it, I mean it,
not every author wants to do it,you know, You know, it just
depends, right? Some people just don't have,
that's just, they're just not going to do it.
And that's fine. But if the author can, I think
(27:16):
one of the things the reader gets is all of the nuance that
you wrote into it, exactly the way the author, you know sees
it, for lack of a better word. That I think your point, I think
that makes a lot of sense actually.
I guess if I did pay somebody todo it, I would have to be
really, really like in deep withthem through the whole process,
(27:39):
review every little step along the way and make sure they're
doing it how I how I envision it.
Let's say this too, Heidi workedwith somebody, was working with
somebody that had no previous experience doing narration and
VO. And it say you hire somebody
online who has previous experience in narration and VO,
(28:04):
they're going to, you're going to be able to get samples from
them to where you're able to evaluate their capacity.
And inside of that, like you don't want to be having to
micromanage every single little thing that's going on.
Like you want to get something that's like 90% there.
And if you then ask them to say like either like maybe fix up
(28:27):
some production or maybe do somepunch insurance here and there,
that's OK. But if you got to go through and
do line edits on an audio read, that's exhausting.
Like, I mean, I've done music and when you're doing puncheons
and you're doing vocals and stuff, that's how meticulous you
have to be for that. But with narration it like
(28:53):
please get through like a paragraph without having,
without needing direction, you know like it should not be that
way. And this and and to no fault of,
you know, I didn't know what I was doing when I started this
and I was like, I'm going to do this.
We're going to dual narrations be great.
And I was at, you know, at zero and started working with someone
(29:14):
who is also at 0, which was fine, But the problem was me
having to pull me figuring it out.
And I, I feel that I kind of hada knack for doing the narration
because 1, you know, I am the author and I know all the
nuance. I understood the story
completely, you know, so that's just an advantage.
(29:37):
But The thing is, I was in the exact position he's talking
about. And you don't want to be in that
position. It's, it's too much.
It's exhausting to have to micromanage someone.
So when I'm pulling this person up, it's like I, I can't, it was
just, I'm trying to think of the, it's exactly what Michael
was saying. It's too it's, you're not
(30:00):
getting anywhere. You're just in this car.
It's, it's frustrating and it's,it's sort of like trying to save
a drowning victim by almost drowning yourself.
Does that make sense? Sure.
Yeah. No, I see what you're saying.
It's the hope would be, right ifthis was a real professional,
that you could be there with them for the first couple
(30:26):
chapters maybe. And they get the gist of it.
Like, like you only give them that real intense guidance at
the very start. And then they pick up on that
and they say, OK, I'm going to do this the whole way through
the book. But ideally that would be how it
works. Now, that's not a guarantee,
right? That's not how it's always
going. To work well, no.
And you have to you, you have to, you know, choose wisely.
(30:50):
I mean, if it comes down to it, that's the best I can say.
Especially it like you say, you go through audible or ACX, you,
you do it through a contract. I just did it with someone that
I met. And, and, and in this person's
defense, it's not that they wereterrible, but it was just that
it was just, it was too taxing on me because I had I, I
(31:14):
couldn't, I couldn't keep them afloat and myself.
Does that make sense? So, so that was why I was like,
you know, I'm just, I'm going tocut my losses and just do the
whole thing because at this point I can, I can finish it on
my own. This is one of the reasons it
took me so long to do it is I, Ihad to learn how to use
(31:36):
audition, how to do all of this stuff.
And then I had to deal with trying to pull someone else up
to speed. And it was, it was just too
much. If I were to work with someone
again, I would definitely pick someone professionally.
But once you have that contract,say through ACX, if that's the
route you go, it's hard to get out of it.
(31:59):
So you have to be really, you know, choose wisely if you're
going to do that. And I mean, if you feel like
you, you need to micromanage it,that's not, you don't want to be
in that position. I mean, that's not someone you
want to work with. If you feel like you have to
tell them everything. It's and it's not and it's not
on them so much. It's because it's it's not, it's
(32:21):
not. That's more than you want to be
doing. It's just more than you want to
be doing, right. Especially with the big my
books, I feel I feel redeemed. I keep getting told my books too
long. It's only 120,000 words, man.
I'm I'm I'm a little novella next to what you're doing right.
But yeah, so, but I mean, give it a shot yourself.
(32:43):
Try doing it, doing a couple chapters yourself.
I had to do 1 chapter where I'vegot like 6 different men talking
to each other. Man, I don't know that I'm
perfect. I mean, I'm sure that it a more
professional narrator would havebeen able to really
differentiate their voices better.
But The thing is, it's very clear in the text who's speaking
(33:05):
because again, when I'm writing it, I have to make it clear for
someone who's just reading it who's speaking because I got 6
different guys having a conversation.
That's an interesting thing to note as well in regards to
performing an audio book and that informing how you write
going forward in the future. It's definitely affected how I
(33:26):
write because I'm aware of not only how I read, but doing short
stories and stuff where I know I'm going to be doing an audio
book production that's an audio drama.
And knowing that there's going to be sound effects, like I take
that into consideration when I'mwriting to say like, how can I
translate this into an audio experience?
(33:48):
And in in the production side where it's like, yeah, I'll do
the narration only thing so everything's got to be on the
page. But can I create moments within
this story that become really engaging soundscaping
opportunities too? Yeah, no, I could see that.
(34:09):
I mean, any kind of medium that you you translate to definitely
helps your writing. I remember when I was in college
and I had first gotten into writing, I had to write the
script, I guess the, the kind of, you know, overlay for a
(34:31):
comic book for one of my classesthat I was in.
And that was a really interesting experience because
the whole point is somebody's going to take what you've
written and turn it into images and translate that into
something visual. So you have to not only be
telling a cohesive story in general, but also be conveying
(34:53):
the imagery well enough that somebody's going to create those
images completely accurately to what you're trying to say.
And I think that was a big boostto my writing and my confidence
in my writing right from the start because it makes me think,
OK, visually, this is what I'm imagining when I type out the
(35:15):
scene, and this is what I want the reader to be imagining,
right? And so I assume doing it through
audio is a much similar process where you're kind of tackling it
from another perspective. And that in turn is going to
make you better. You're going to think more about
it when you write in the future.This, this will help me on the
(35:36):
audio side if I write it this way, and it'll help it come
across better through listening.I could totally see that.
You know one of the things too. I don't know if you ever read
your stuff as part of your editing process.
I know Michael's huge on this and I have to completely agree
with him. I found so many things as a, as
(36:00):
doing the audio book. It was like doing the most
thorough proofread ever. I mean, I just, I'm, I'm going
to use that as part of the process from now on because it's
just you, you, you, you hear it,you see it.
It really makes difference, you know?
Yeah. I mean, and I don't know about
(36:20):
you, it's like, oh, read aloud. It's like, well, I'll read aloud
for about 3 lines. And if I'm not recording, if I'm
recording it, then I'm paying attention, you know, then I'll
do it. But so it's, it just makes a
huge difference. I, I mean, that's just a, that's
a real just bonus, even if you don't even release it, but you
(36:41):
might as well, if you're going to go to that much trouble.
I don't know. But yeah, it's quite, I mean,
again. And one of the reasons I think
it, it took me so long is because of, you know, it was, it
was, it was a, a, a learning experience, as they say.
So yeah, way across the board. Totally.
(37:08):
It's interesting. I want to go back to just real
quick. I know you said male authors or
male recorders might have a harder time with female
characters. I was just thinking about, you
know, I, I don't listen to a lotof audiobooks, admittedly, but
the ones I do listen to are usually like big series that I
(37:29):
need to get caught up on. But like, I don't necessarily
feel like sitting down to read. And so one of those is the
Timothy Zahn Star Wars books. I've read most of them myself,
but there's a few that I haven't.
And so I've just been trying to to listen to them in my spare
time just to get through all of them.
And that voice narrator that they do for those Star Wars
(37:53):
books, He's he's really good at all the male characters like
Megan, very distinct. He gives characters little
accents that that set them apart.
But all the female characters sound the same.
And I don't know how common thatis.
That's just my anecdotal experience, but it is an
interesting, it kind of gives credence to what you said where
(38:16):
like maybe, maybe there is some struggle there.
Well, here's my opinion, kind ofhaving I listen to a fair I
listen to audiobooks for the same reason when I don't have
time to sit down and read, but I'm just like, I I want to know.
I want to know this story, right?
So what what I I've heard it done really well.
(38:42):
So sorry. So my neighbor just texted me.
I've heard it done really well and I'm trying to think of an
example of it done really well. You could listen to that won't
make you crazy. A lot of the romance novels do
And and I'm you know, the cheesysmutty romance novels do the
(39:03):
dual narration with male female,but they're but well, that's in
so you'll have the men will be voicing the women.
But when it's done poorly, it's it's it's what Michael was
saying. It's, it's the, it's the actor
not able to get outside of themselves.
They're not able to remove themselves from the equation.
(39:25):
And you can hear it. I don't know how else to say it.
I mean, and it's, it's being vulnerable enough to not be
yourself, to allow yourself to embody that character.
And I think that it's easier forwomen to do that because they're
not giving up their masculinity,I guess is the best way to put
it. But for men, it can be a
(39:47):
challenge. And that was one of the
challenges. I heard it was sort of like, I
mean, the first thing was it wasjust raising to trying to talk
in a falsetto where it's, you know, just talking really high.
It's like, well, you know, it's like just this man's voice
talking high. But you don't.
I don't think they necessarily need to do that.
It's more about the way they speak as opposed to whether or
(40:10):
not. They, they have a high voice or
a low voice, you know, because everyone thinks I'll just talk.
I'll just talk like this. I don't sound like a female.
But it's not that at all. It's, it's the intonation.
It's the way. That's the Monty Python school
of voicing women. Yeah, and it's funny when they
and they're doing it for that reason.
(40:31):
It's because it's funny as it's hysterical, but it's not real
funny when you have a serious female character, you know, or
they'll do an old lady will be all old clipped.
It's like they're not paying attention to the character.
They're just, they're paying attention to the archetype
maybe, or just to the, I don't know this, but something like
(40:52):
that. Yeah, I mean, I, I think.
You know, yeah. And that's where, well, that's
where it goes wrong, right? So the guys who do it well don't
necessarily try to change the register of their voice, but
they change the way they speak. Yeah, I, I think if you view it
as the character I'm voicing is a female, then you're trying to
(41:15):
sound like a female. And that's already in and of
itself, like, not necessarily a challenge, but it's like a goal.
Like, OK, I want to sound female, but if there's, you
know, so many female characters in the book, you kind of can't
look at it that way necessarily.You got to give them something.
(41:36):
Yeah, you got to think this is this character is a little more
gravelly, a little more raspy, alittle more Husky.
Like I guess you can't look at it as the very first thing
you're changing is my voice needs to become female.
Because at that point, how much more are you going to be able to
change if you're not a really, really good voice actor?
Well, the thing too, I think is I don't.
(41:59):
I mean, I can't say if I'm a good void actor, but voice
actor, but I think a bit more about the personality of the
character as opposed to the sound of their voice and the
sound of their voice comes out of their personality, right?
So if I have a character who's innocent, then what I'm trying
to portray is innocence, right? Or if I have someone who's wise,
(42:23):
I'm trying to portray wisdom. If I have someone who's a liar
or a cheat, I'm trying to portray that.
I'm trying to portray the content of their character more
than just what they sound like. Does that make sense?
I don't know. You guys agree with that,
Michael? No, I think that's a good place
to start. You really want to think more
(42:44):
about like the voice as an expression of the
characterization, as opposed to a voice as an expression of like
a generic gender. Yeah, and that's, that demands
certain level of intelligence from the person doing the work.
I mean, that's the thing to kindof try and flush out is it's
(43:06):
like, dare I say it, how smart is this person?
You know? I mean it, the whole experience
gave me a respect for actors. I never thought I would have got
to be honest, because you realize that they have to be.
(43:27):
I mean, there's always a fluke, but there has to be a certain
level of intelligence to be ableto to understand and portray
these characters effectively. I'm on any kind of acting.
I think I've learned over the past year.
A. 100% I agree. And it's tough, I think when
(43:52):
you're first starting to be ableto do that stuff.
You know, I've only been doing fiction for the last two years
or so. Maybe.
Yeah, 2, little over 2 years, I guess, maybe three years Max.
When I first started, well, I guess when I first started
(44:12):
tracking recording stuff was almost three years ago.
But the thing that I learn is that as I find new challenges
within it, not only for my writing, but doing other
material, is that I discovered new ways of using and applying
(44:35):
my voice within it. Because it's, it's, it's a
muscle and it's a skill and it'ssomething that you have to like
keep in shape in general as wellso that you can execute on what
you hear in your mind. And that's the thing too.
Like when I'm doing a read, likeI'll read a line multiple times
(44:58):
until I get something that I feel is appropriate.
Or sometimes I'll do multiple readings in the exact same
cadence and then chop that stufftogether in post in editing,
because I find that while I was recording it, I really liked one
(45:18):
part. Or I really liked one line
reading. I might like one part from 1:00
and another part from another. And more largely, I like the way
that those two things seat together in relation to the line
before and the line that comes after.
Stuff you learn. Sure.
(45:42):
I mean, it's just like writing, right?
You got to. You want the best result, You
got to redo it a couple times. Yeah, I mean it, it is you
absolutely do. I think, I think you know when I
I think I did the recorded the 1st chapter.
I will say hi Ness. I haven't seen you in a while.
I when I OK, but let me back up when I did it, I think I
(46:07):
recorded the 1st chapter like 5 or 6 times until I really got a
feel for it and then I had to learn the the editing process.
I think I probably by the end ofit, I got a lot better at it.
But it's just, it's like anything you're not going to
you're, you're, you suck at it until you're good at it.
(46:27):
You just have to kind of hang inthere.
I don't think I knew that you did the first chapter 5 or 6
times. I did, I did it a bunch of times
because I, I, well, it's not, itwasn't, I was trying to learn.
It was, you know, it was fun andI was trying to figure it out.
So I mean, there's, you know, I hadn't done it before, so I had
(46:49):
to keep going at it. So I mean, it is what it is.
You got to start somewhere. But yeah, that's the thing I
would say, I think, I think figuring, I mean, you're, you're
safe if you're doing the narration, if you don't like
what you're doing, you can micromanage yourself all you
want, but once you get someone else, that's the only thing I
would say. It's like, I would start out at
(47:10):
least playing around with it yourself so you get a feel for
what you want and then if you want to hand it off to someone
you know because of time or justwhat whatever reason, at least
you have an idea of what you're looking for.
Once you've done it some becauseyou then you understand the
process does that. I think that might be the best
way to approach it. Does that make sense?
(47:32):
Yeah, I mean, the thing for me again, like if you're recording
a chapter 5 or 6 times, it's effectively no different than
recording a line 5 or 6 times, you know what I mean?
It's the same amount of time. It's just that like I'm doing it
(47:52):
all in line in one take. I'm not necessarily like setting
up, breaking down, listening back and then having to do that
over and over and over again. Which, you know, I get it
because you were figuring out how to do all the technical
stuff. Yeah, it wasn't so much that.
I mean, it was more me figuring it out and that's what, you
(48:15):
know, it was. It was trying to learn
everything. And I did it by practicing on
that first chapter a bunch of times.
Plus it's the first chapter. What?
Plus it's the first chapter so you want to land it.
This is true. This is true.
That's your 5 minute thing. That's your, Your 5 minute
retail sample is the five first 5 minutes of the 1st chapter.
(48:38):
So you definitely want to land that one.
But I mean, that was the one I, you know, I had to practice.
So that was what I did to practice and listen back and
figure out how I'm recording things and all this stuff.
Now your voice is good. Thank you.
I, I, I, you know, lucky to haveit.
(49:00):
Well, this is when we usually begin to wrap things up for the
day. So are there any final parting
thoughts, words, comments, things that we should know
about? I appreciate you guys help for
sure. I appreciate the audiobook
advice. Definitely say it's in the
(49:21):
future somewhere. I got to get through some real
world stuff trying to build a career and and all that jargon.
But you know, once I'm once I'm on my feet and I feel like I
have the time or the money, it'sdefinitely going to happen.
And I think that'll be another big boost.
(49:44):
Like like you guys said, you know, you got to get that stride
going. And now that I've got three
books in this series, potentially is equal to
Slipspace coming at some point because that's top performing
book we've got then yeah, I think, I think we only go up
from here. So lots coming down the pipeline
(50:06):
and looking forward to seeing what's next.
Heidi comments. Thoughts.
I'm just I'm I'm still numb thatI finished the blasted thing and
it's in it's in review over at audible huge though I might my
audio book just. Your white whale?
(50:28):
Yeah, my white. I caught the white whale better
than Ahab. I got him.
Congratulations. God, so that I've got a novella
that I want to get out definitely this year.
It might be good. Maybe fall.
I mean, I it's pretty quick. It's about 100 pages.
I mean, it's not a long thing. And then I've got my second
(50:52):
book. I need to, I'm going to start
working on that in tandem. I think I can, I think that's,
but that's more, it's going to take a little longer.
That's that's the bigger one. That's another 400 pager.
So this is probably the rest of my year and I'm going to try
really hard not to write this novel that's pounding in the
back of my head and, and, and weigh myself down some more.
(51:14):
So that's those are my goals right now.
Very good. Well, hey, this has gone well,
and we'll talk again before too long.
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