DEI in Education: Strategies and Stories

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Dr. Tami Dean welcomes Dr. Sara Piotrowski to discuss the integration of equity and diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) principles into educational systems. They delve into the evolution of educational practices, the importance of historical context in teaching, and strategies for effective and inclusive instruction.

Join Dr. Tami & Dr. Sara as they discuss: 

• Educational Journey and Growth in DEI
• Challenges in Implementing Equity
• Empowering Educators

Books Mentioned in this Episode:
This Book is Anti-Racist
Men Explain Things to Me
The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle
Fit Nation

Summer Webinar Series 

Coaching Discovery Call

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Episode Transcript

Tami (00:00):
Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of the equity

(00:05):
hour, a dragonfly risingpodcast.
I am so excited.
It is your host, Dr.
Tami Dean.
I have joining me today, Dr.
Sara Petrowski.
She is the coordinator of.
Student teaching for history andsocial sciences education.
I got that all in one breath forIllinois State University in

(00:25):
Normal, Illinois.
Welcome, Sara.
All

Sara (00:28):
Thank you for having me.
And you got the name and thetitle and it didn't take up half
my episode.
So there you go.

Tami (00:35):
the things, all the things.
So so excited to have, Sara herejoining us today.
We're going to, we're going totalk about, of course, all
things equity.
And Sara, you've probably hearda few episodes and just say yes.
Yes, you have.
Yes.
But I always love to start withthinking about what is your, and

(00:55):
has been, your journey with DEIand equity work, because I
really think it's important forpeople to realize this isn't
like a one stop, I've learnedall the things and then I'm
done.
It really is a journey.
So I would love for you to sharea little bit about your journey
with equity.

Sara (01:13):
you know, it's interesting since, since you contacted me
about coming on at first, I waslike, I don't have a journey.
You shouldn't talk to me aboutthis.
I'm not qualified.
And then I started thinkingabout, no, I've been, I've been
on a really long journey.
And I think that part of myjourney, it wasn't called this,
right?

Tami (01:28):
Mm hmm.

Sara (01:29):
Wasn't about equity.
I think of things that I'vedone, you A couple of years ago,
actually, unfortunately, I hadto do it during the pandemic,
but we used to have an urbanpipeline,

Tami (01:40):
Mm.

Sara (01:41):
with, it was the national center for urban education
through ISU doesn't existanymore, which is very sad,

Tami (01:47):
Oh, that is sad.

Sara (01:48):
Yeah, I think the grant money ran out.
But, you know, I got to, like,do a course rewrite.
And so, I didn't get to do,like, the homestay, right?
but I did a whole week on Zoom,and I got to meet school
partners and all this stuff.
And I really got to, like, I'vedone that, and I've done some
restorative justice training.
So, like, I've done someofficial things, right?
but I think a lot of it has beenwatching our educate, our

(02:13):
community.
Yeah.
Our profession shift, assomebody who used to teach high
school history, social studiesand who now has actually, I've
actually spent more of my careerpreparing future teachers, which
is crazy to think that that'swhat I thought was going to be
like a brief moment in timeuntil my kids got over is now
like the thing that I do and soI've been doing it, whether it's

(02:34):
reading, whether it's advocatingfor students, whether it's
Whether you know being servingon different committees.
So I've been, I've been doingit.
And then when you asked me totalk about it, I realized that,
wow, I do live in this space.
I think back to, and this ishorrible.
Did you ever like have to writelike a philosophy of teaching
when you first started out?

Tami (02:54):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
And even when I applied forprofessor jobs, I had to share
my philosophy of teaching.
Yes.

Sara (03:03):
so I recently stumbled upon what I wrote back in 2003,
and it, it makes my skin crawl.
One of the things I said,because I had changed my major
for broadcast journalism toeducation.
And I'd like called, and like myparents, specifically my dad had

(03:23):
said something about wanting tobe a teacher and like I ended
this philosophy statement withthe phrase, Daddy knows best.
I like I can feel myself gettinghot and like good.
Good.
No, I mean, I love my dad, whichis also a space like a stop on
my equity journey.
Neither of my parents went tocollege some 1st gen.

(03:44):
My parents are actually highschool sweethearts and but they
were like, fierce advocates ofpublic education.
When the neighborhood school, Igrew up in the area when the
neighborhood school closed, myparents were in their meetings
and doing things and it closed,unfortunately.
So then, they filled out anapplication and I was able to go

(04:05):
to a magnet school.
And so I was still part of thejoint public schools, but now in
later in life, actually inteaching history, I learned,
like, I am a product ofdesegregation, you know, like, I
am a product of integration,right?
I was bused east side of Joliet.
I filled out, you know, it was.
You know, so just thinkingabout, some of the pieces, like

(04:28):
my parents really wanted me tohave a good education.
Coincidentally, they also onlypaid for A's and B's.
Nothing like getting that, that,that sea and weather like
writing a number down andnegotiating with my mom, like
across the table, like this iswhat I can give you.

Tami (04:46):
See it whether that was a course, it was a class whether

Sara (04:49):
it was part of the geography endorsement.
Yeah.
You know, so like, there arethings that I've been doing.
things that I've learned aboutmyself.
Oh, so in that same statement,besides the fact that it was, I
just really want to chalk it upto, I was like, trying to finish
this quickly.
I also said that, like, myphilosophy was like, I will meet
students in the middle.

(05:11):
Like, I will, like, if you willdo things, I will meet you in
the middle.
I can't do that anymore.
I can't, like, that is the, youknow, the famous little, like
like, the image of, like, equityversus equality.

Tami (05:23):
like with the the boxes and then the remover of the
fence and

Sara (05:27):
Yes.
And I use that in a lot of myclasses because we'll get some
people like, ah, I was going tobe an equity thing.
And I was like, but, but it isan equity issue and it's an
access issue and it's aprivilege issue.
And so I think back then, beforeI had spent a significant amount
of time in a classroom, I was inthe middle.
Like, if you do things, if youshow up, I'll do what I can.

(05:48):
Well.
There are some students thatthey're like, they're already
starting in the middle.
So they have very little do theyneed very little for me.
And then there's students thatare over here that just getting
them to the middle isn't evengoing to be enough.
So I think that like, I'velearned, I think a lot of my
equity issue is just, has beenexperienced.

Tami (06:07):
hmm.

Sara (06:08):
I think another part of, my equity journey, has also been
becoming a mother.
Nothing, nothing stops you inyour track, like your kid
wanting to like know whysomething isn't fair.
You know what I mean?

(06:28):
And, and so I think that, so inthe summer of 2020, I put some
books aside because I amnotoriously, as somebody who has
multiple degrees in history,can't remember like names and
dates.
So I put the, brought the books

Tami (06:42):
that's okay.
You know, what are the are thedates and names the most
important part like You knowwhat I will say this so I used
to not like history

Sara (06:51):
that's fair.
I mean, there's a lot of you.
Mm hmm.

Tami (06:55):
boring, so boring, right?
Like, memorize this stuff.
We're going to talk about thesame little chunk of history
like eight times, you know.
But then I met people who lovehistory.
And we're actually talking aboutthe story of Of history and the
Oh, it made little hearts.
That was so cool.

(07:16):
Okay.
I didn't know I didn't know itdid that.
Okay, y'all like there werelittle hearts on the screen.
That was so cool.
Okay, I'm going to show thatclip.
I'm going to have to put thatclip out on Instagram because
that was super cool.
But no, I really met people thatlove history and then really
actually told the story ofhistory because that's the power

(07:38):
her.
Of history is the narrative andthe story of the people because
I'm super big on narrative andstory is storytelling because
that is how I believe weconnected how we have
historically throughout historyconnected as humans.
And that is how we should beable to continue to connect with
humans is also why I love apodcast, right?
Because that's what a podcastis.
It is a story, right?

(07:58):
We're having a conversation andwe're telling, telling a story.
So.
No judgment there, but that wasfull disclosure.
I used to not like history.
Now I think it's super cool.
Cause I hang out with the coolpeople that are, you know,

Sara (08:11):
We, we make it happen.
Am I allowed to ask youquestions?

Tami (08:14):
Oh, you could ask me a question if you want.

Sara (08:15):
I don't know the, I don't know the rules.
This is my first time on apodcast.
So, I'm curious, like, whatstory made you like history?
Is it because the story, upuntil that point, you weren't
representative?
Were they like dead white men?

Tami (08:29):
Oh, you know, that is

Sara (08:32):
Was that real?
Was that really point, was thatreally pointed?
Because I, I've asked you aquestion, but then I can tell
you why I got into history, butI want to hear your answer.

Tami (08:41):
You know, That's interesting, only because I,
ironically enough, have notthought about that perspective
around my study of history.
It is probably very true becauseI have talked in the past about
just, growing up a multi racial,multi ethnic person, you know,
going to high school in theearly 90s in a school that was

(09:02):
predominantly white, right?
Like, there was a lot of How doyou identify yourself?
Like being a multiracial persondidn't exist in 1990, right?
So, yes, that perspective wasprobably missing, but I probably
wouldn't have recognized itthen.
What I think captured me was thepassion of people or the person

(09:26):
that was starting to tell meabout These historical events
and I was like that is superintriguing like there was
interesting information thatconnected back to the actual
people living in the time aroundthe history so that's kind of
what.

(09:47):
You know, brought me in to it.

Sara (09:52):
you think of what that person, place, thing, event, or
idea in history was that likehooked you, if you ever think of
it, I'm just curious, becausemine was the OG American Girl
Dolls.

Tami (10:06):
Oh,

Sara (10:07):
so I'm just going to keep outing myself as your dorkiest,
as your dorkiest guest.
In fifth grade,

Tami (10:14):
we're all dorky.
That's why we're here.
I mean, just saying.

Sara (10:19):
in fifth grade.
With my paper route money

Tami (10:24):
had a paper route.

Sara (10:25):
yes, I came home from school and I had to roll the
papers and, I put the bag on myscooter and I went and, and then
also can we talk about the factthat my parents, I mean, this
entire generation, right, likethey would send me out with this
little like clipboard thing togo collect money from people and
they either had to write me acheck or give me, exact change.

(10:46):
I was just out going to gettheir paper money, like they
gave, they gave me the money

Tami (10:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Sara (10:53):
and so that job, that job doesn't even exist because A,
that means you would have to buypapers and B I think, I think
the paper routes now are topeople that go early in the
morning and they drive aroundbecause they can't actually,
there's not enough papers to bepassed in a subdivision like if
they drive around, I believeit's how it's, right.

Tami (11:11):
I don't know.
My paper route was in myneighborhood and the adjoining
neighborhood.
And then a friend of mine hadthe neighborhood.
Had the route on theneighborhood across the way from
us.
So sometimes we would sub foreach other.
But yeah, I had to deliver thepapers early, early in the
morning.
So this is shout out to my dadbecause he did, you know, we, we
propped up the hatchback with abroomstick.

(11:34):
Yeah.
And then I sat out the backinhaling all the exhaust fumes,
you know, but like I deliveredall the papers, but he would get
up and he would, you know, driveme around.
If I sometimes I would go on mybike and I had the big bag, you
know, and then I would.
You know, throw them out.
Very cliche.
But yeah,

Sara (11:50):
No, I did it on my scooter, and I think I had to
deliver them by, like, five orfive thirty.
To think that, like, that peoplehad to wait until Sara got home
from school, have a quick snack,rolled papers, rubber band them,
put them in my bag, and comeout, like, that's how people had
to wait to get their news in thenineties.

Tami (12:09):
it boggles.
It totally boggles.
Like my own children's mind.
They're like, well, how did youknow information?
I said, well, we had to waittill the next day or we watched
the news at 10 o'clock.
Some

Sara (12:20):
it didn't show up on my For You page, and let's talk
about how you shouldn't just getyour news from TikTok.
But that's one other,

Tami (12:28):
That's a whole nother episode.
That's a whole nother episode.
Okay.
So you had a paper route.

Sara (12:32):
got a paper out, saved my money, at that point I had, I
had the books, both from thelibrary and I had some, and so
I, I, I had Kirsten, was myfirst American Girl doll.
So fifth grade, arguably asmidge, a smidge too old to be
playing with dolls, but youknow, that's, that is, that's
how I, like, really got intohistory, You know, learning

(12:55):
about the plains, and there wasMolly, and Samantha, and
Felicity, I think were the fourof the first four.
And nothing struck me like whenmy daughter, who I believe we
got her first American Girl dollcatalog before she could sit up.
So like, it's like they, theyhave a, they have some sort of
like Spidey sense, like, oh, weshould send a

Tami (13:17):
Like we need the mailing list of the births that happened
at the hospital and then we'regoing to send you our catalog.

Sara (13:22):
And we still get them, by the way, even though she
doesn't, my daughter is now 14,but we got one last week and
American Girl has partnered withthe Disney Princess.
I was like, oh, that would have,but that, so to get back, that
is how I, Learned about history.
I learned about girls, my age,what they were doing, who they

(13:45):
were with, their trials andtribulation.
my daughter was into AmericanGirl.
Her first was Kit.
We joke that she used to likeplay Great Depression.
It was like she had a littletypewriter and a little like
scooters thing.
Tell me your mom's a historyprofessor without, right?

Tami (14:02):
Oh my gosh.
That's so crazy.
But it's the story, right?
You could relate to their story.

Sara (14:08):
those were the stories.
That's what I wanted to learnmore about.
And so I have no idea how weeven got here.
I have outed myself for talkingabout American girl and

Tami (14:19):
We,

Sara (14:20):
my

Tami (14:21):
your equity journey, we were talking about history and
the love of history and how youbecame like interested in
history.
So as a part of your journey ofhistory.

Sara (14:33):
Part of my journey.
So, and I think back, like, tohigh school, my electives, they
had a, I don't remember what theclass was called, but
essentially we read Malcolm X'sbiography autobiography,

Tami (14:47):
Mm hmm.

Sara (14:48):
yes, autobiography, and we read a rumor war, a Vietnam
book.
So, essentially it was like acivil rights cold war Vietnam
class, only female in the class.
And that happened.
Quite a few times when I was incollege as well like the only on
the history class.
One of the districts I taughtin, I was the first female

(15:09):
social studies teacher in 2005.
So, like, I've been, you know,with the, with the whole idea
that, like, you know, socialstudies teachers are there to
coach, I've been in spaces, youknow, where now to be clear,
I've worked with a lot of great,great men and women.
I've worked with a lot of greatcolleagues, but, you know, a lot
of that sexism persists and alot of it is that that

(15:31):
stereotype.
And,, I think every year thatI've taught history, or I've
taught people how to teachhistory.
A lot of it is about whosestories can we can who can we
include.
Right, like, like, first, Ithink first.
It was like black history as wejust got out of black history
month, right?
Because we should talk aboutthat in February.

(15:51):
Right?
And now now we're in women'shistory month.
Right?
So I think, you know, and if youthink back to like, old
textbooks, they just used tohave like a little picture of

Tami (16:00):
little side.

Sara (16:01):
little little

Tami (16:02):
little inset.

Sara (16:04):
Yeah.

Tami (16:05):
With like, one woman.
Like, one.
And it was always the same one.

Sara (16:11):
Right.
I'm trying now.
I'm like, you know, like someEleanor Roosevelt, not that
she's not, you know, some like,just some like, very like like

Tami (16:18):
It'll be like Pocahontas.
be like, Betsy Ross.

Sara (16:22):
Betsy.
Right.

Tami (16:24):
Anthony.

Sara (16:25):
Rosa Parks.
There you go.

Tami (16:27):
Rose Parks.

Sara (16:28):
right.
Civil, civil rights.
You know, she's black.
She's a woman.
I mean, she could be in bothmonths.

Tami (16:34):
Harriet Tubman.

Sara (16:35):
February, March, February and March.
You could learn about her.
For a little about them for twoout of the 12 months.
That makes sense.
So I think, and I think it's,did you say where I'm doing?
Can I say the state that I livein?
Have you already said where?
Okay, so in Illinois, I don'tknow why I'm asking.
There's so many rules.
Am I allowed to ask questions?
Can I say where I live?

(16:55):
So, we have lots of mandates nowin this state.
We were the 5th state to requireLGBTQ plus history, we have
Asian American history, youknow, so we are, I am proud to
live in a state, that we aremaking sure that there are more
voices heard, I went to a panellast week, about the movie,
killers of the flower moon.

Tami (17:16):
Yes.

Sara (17:17):
Oh, and so it was 1 of our faculty members and a couple,
she had a couple indigenousfolks there.
1 of them from the nation.
And, you know, like we're, youknow, we're talking about
everything and they're like,yeah, but in Oklahoma, where
this took place, they're notallowed to teach it.
And it was only in the lastthree years that in Oklahoma,
they can teach about the Tulsarace massacre, not the Tulsa

(17:40):
race.
Right.
And so it's just like it's, youknow, boggles me.

Tami (17:45):
Oh, boggles my mind as well, right?
There's, I'm not sure whythere's this idea if we, Act
like it didn't happen, then thatmeans it didn't happen.
And I, and I'm curious why thisis so prevalent in America,

(18:08):
right?
Because I think of like theHolocaust and how in Germany and
in those places, like they'renot trying to hide from the
history or make these personsheroic in some way.
They are being true to thedevastating loss.

(18:30):
And genocide that happened inthe Holocaust.
I, I really don't know why

Sara (18:39):
And

Tami (18:40):
that can't happen here.
Or hasn't.

Sara (18:43):
And I, I mean, I think some, I think a lot of it is
politics, right?
I think it is who's in charge ofour school boards, who's writing
our curriculums, you know, whatTexas wants, Texas gets, right?
Like, for the textbooks, there'sa really good New York Times
article that compares Texas andCalifornia textbooks that we
often have our students readthat give just like full on

(19:04):
excerpts,

Tami (19:05):
hmm.

Sara (19:07):
So the space that I live in right now preparing future
teachers in Illinois, right?
But they can go anywhere becauseyou can say whatever you want
about our state, but we havegreat reciprocity with our
license.
Our license is chef's kiss.
Like you can go like 30something states.
You know, but this, they areyoung, impressionable, largely

(19:29):
white, right, like, I think,what's the stat, like, 82
percent of teachers are whiteand female, and that's looking
at, like, you know,

Tami (19:36):
In middle class.

Sara (19:37):
yes, and middle class and I, I know it is skewed a little
bit different for high schoolbecause I know a lot of, like,
When you do the full trunk, youknow, with elementary, but
either way, right now, our, ourprogram was like flirting with
50 50 in terms of gender.
And like, we now are have moremale students again.

(19:57):
I don't know, like, the exact,the exact like breakdown in our
in our program.
we make up about give on anygiven year between 70 to 80
percent of the historydepartment.
They are history ed.
And so, they're terrified toteach anything controversial.
Right, because they don't wantto lose their jobs and mostly

(20:19):
they want to get their studentteaching.
Right?
So, because the whole goal pass,you know, get your certificate,
get a letter of rec, it's a lotof times we have to say, like,
read the room.
Right?
Like, know the district thatyou're in.
We're not saying that this iswhere you have to teach for
life, but this is, you know, youneed to respect kind of the
norms established.

(20:39):
Now, that doesn't mean you can'tpush back by, like, having
credible sources that you'vecited, you know, and doing
things like that.
But, more and more often, and wetry, we try so hard to teach
them strategies that they canuse in the classroom that We'll
make sure that both sides of anyargument are given equal weight,

Tami (21:03):
hmm.

Sara (21:04):
also talk about.
When we don't debate closedissues, was slavery bad?
We don't need to debate that.
Right.
Like, should gay marriage belegal?
But you know, it's, you know,cause you read these stories or
like people that like set up a,a mock slave.

Tami (21:25):
Oh, you mean like that?
Oh my gosh, what did I see?
Where they were like, oh, theylabeled one room white, entry
whites only, blacks only.
I was like, why?

Sara (21:39):
So some of this stuff, it's like,

Tami (21:40):
Like trauma, right?
But that's like trauma.
You're inducing trauma.

Sara (21:46):
And so it's like, A, use your best judgment.
It's kind of like when studentsare like, is this appropriate to
wear for student teaching?
If you had to ask me, the answeris no, right?
The goal

Tami (22:01):
would always be like, okay, check, lean over, dah,
dah, dah, this, that they'relike, what?

Sara (22:06):
Right, but it was funny.
One of the students made acomment.
It's like, well, the new MLBpants aren't allowed because you
know, they're like see through.
I don't always get sports jokelike jokes, but I did know that
1

Tami (22:16):
gosh.

Sara (22:18):
but, you know, it's and so we try to arm them with, like,
teaching strategies.
Like, we'll do a structuredacademic controversy.
Right?
Have you ever heard this?
You know, where you present eachside and each side has to speak
and take notes and say it backand whether it's a fishbowl
discussion, a QFT, a questionformulation technique.
Like, so we are, what we'retrying to do is, especially in

(22:41):
our methods classes, like, let'sarm them with the strategies.
That they can walk into abuilding, they're given the
standard, or they're given thecontent or however that is
aligned.
And they can pull out sourcesthat they can help students have
a healthy dialogue.
And really, as somebody whodoesn't personally love, like,

(23:05):
full on.
confrontation.
Like, I love a good discussion,but I don't like to come out
swinging just for the sake ofswinging.
And that's what also has a lotof students shut down.
We also talk about, like, do youhave to have a debate?
Because the debate insinuatesthat there's going to be a
winner and a loser.
And a lot of complex issues inhistory and in the social

(23:27):
sciences that you can say yes,but, or no, but.
And so the idea that, you know,and you're teaching them to, you
know, You're, you're ultimatelywant your students, like our
students who will teach futurehigh school students, you know,
that they can look for sourcesthat they can listen for
understanding.
And, you know, and so it's, butthey are, they're very, they're

(23:49):
very nervous about, where theywill get a job and what that
will mean for what they get toteach because.
We've prepared them to tellthese, to look at all of these
stories, you know, Indigenous,LGBTQ, you know, all of them.
And a lot of our students arereally looking forward to that,

(24:11):
and they don't want to go to aplace where they could lose
their job if they do.

Tami (24:16):
Yes.
Well, you know, I live in Texasnow,

Sara (24:19):
I know I didn't mean, it was like not, I said it just
because Texas really not the newcountry, but

Tami (24:24):
they do.
But I think that's important,right?
Because there are so manyeducators in Texas.
that still are looking to try tohave these conversations.
So I did, some teacher prep herein Texas for a while, right?
And this would be theconversation, like you're
talking about, well, how do I Dothis.

(24:46):
How do I bring this up?
How do I have a similar thing?
Know the why and the researchthat backs up why you're doing
it and the process.
Right.
But I understand why they'reafraid and scared.
And I think that's also part ofwhy conversations like this are
so important is because ourcollective voice has power.

(25:10):
And when we speak up about ourprofession, To the people that
are trying to make decisionsabout what we do in our
classroom, because just becauseyou went to school doesn't mean
you know how to best teach.
You were just a student, okay,which is great, but we're
professionals, right?

(25:32):
So

Sara (25:32):
we are, we've been trained to do this.

Tami (25:34):
yes, we know how to do that.
A primary source is a primarysource or a book, right, that
represents.
Another viewpoint of life orexperience or a culture is just
as valid, right?
It doesn't mean it's quoteunquote woke.

Sara (25:57):
I hate that, I hate that that word has become like
weaponized, like, or that it'slike, I guess, you know, that,
you know, it's like a joke, likemy children.
They will call me a Karen or aboomer or what you're just like
as a way to like be mean, meanteenagers.
I joke that I have the meanteens.
They really do actually love mevery much, but it's the whole

(26:19):
idea, even in my classes, theywill be like, my students will
be like, okay, so like, how do Ilike what I, what I believe in
personifies being woke.
Like, how do I not be labeledwoke?
That was like, I don't knowbecause, I don't want the bad
label, but I want to teach whatcomes with the bad label.

Tami (26:40):
Yes.
Yes.

Sara (26:43):
a mean, like, naming all in for no reason.

Tami (26:47):
yes,

Sara (26:48):
no, there's a reason.

Tami (26:49):
well there is a reason and I Think there is like trying to
figure out like what do I how doI want to say this?
I think there are some peopleYou that are, are just following
the pack because, right, ashumans, we always were trying to

(27:09):
categorize and group and like,we do all of these things to
make sense of our world.
And they're like, Oh, thisperson said this, and I respect
this person or whatever for thiscertain person.
And I'm just going to followwhat they say.
Say, and I'm going to keeprepeating it, even though I have
absolutely no idea what thatactually means, right?
So coming back to what you weretalking about teaching critical

(27:34):
thinking skills and looking atthe factual information around
what happened in history or aprimary source document or
evidence from history Removesthat piece to me in my mind,
right?
Because this is the actualdocument from that time.

(27:55):
And the words of the people inthat moment.

Sara (27:59):
Well, and like some of my favorite things, okay, I
shouldn't say favorite, but liketo show a contract, a teaching
contract.
And basically that, like, awoman couldn't marry that she
couldn't be out past 8 PM thatshe had to be there in time to,
like, start the fire and sweepthe floor.
And it's like.

(28:19):
You know, or even like when Iget to the 1950s and stuff, the
like, the propaganda that wasshared, like the date your
family.
And it's like a, you know, it'slike a video about how to, you
know, you know, the daughtersthat sell the dessert and, you
know, just like how to be agood, I would eat.
I would be a terrible 1950shousewife.

(28:41):
Like, I would be

Tami (28:42):
I would have been horrible.
I would have been horrible.
Horrible.
Okay.
I just had this thought, and I'mcurious what you're thinking
about it, right?
Because you're bringing up,historically speaking around
education, and education hashistorically been a female led
thing.
profession and patriarchy,right, has been this major

(29:06):
system in force that influenceseverything we do.
Even if you don't think it is,folks, it is because you are.
Like grew up and live in thissystem.
So I just am starting to thinkabout right patriarchy and how
the pushback around what happensin education because of the

(29:31):
women are still not viewed.
As intellectual beings that canhandle these decisions and
things like that, right?
Because even if you look at, youknow, a lot of leadership and
education are male, right?

(29:51):
So, I don't know.
Thoughts on that.
Very complicated.

Sara (29:57):
So, it's a very, like, On our next episode, no, I'm just
kidding.
I think,

Tami (30:03):
This happens on every episode, just so you know, like
I could really branch off intolike

Sara (30:07):
oh, the ones I've listened to, I was like, oh, she could
do, like, a whole separatepodcast about this.
Like, a whole series.
So, okay, I, like I said, I gotsome books.
I didn't even talk about thisone.
This was my, this book is antiracist.

Tami (30:19):
Oh, I love that book.
Love that book.

Sara (30:21):
got that in summer 2020, actually did some of the
activities with my children.
That is when you know, let's seewhose copy is this, this was
Jake's, he had just learnedcursive.
This is when, again, you know,your mom is a teacher that she's
making you do an anti racistworkbook.
But we had some really gooddiscussions surrounding it.
And one of them is that I, I am,and I am, and I bring that up

(30:42):
because like I, I am a mother,but I'm also a very capable
woman, right?
Like the idea that somethingdoesn't define me.
Okay.
But the other that I was justmoving that out of the way.
This.
These two books Men ExplainThings to Me and Burnout, The
Secret to Unlocking the StressCycle, are pretty much the

(31:03):
equivalent of my Bibles thesedays.
Like my important texts.
Are you familiar with either ofthese?

Tami (31:11):
I have actually not read either of these.
I'm very excited though to hearabout them.
And I will, you know, in theshow notes, I'll put some links
there for y'all too.

Sara (31:18):
So this, so this one actually, I was, I have, this
was actually gifted to me bysomeone else who has been on
your podcast.

Tami (31:28):
With the cool

Sara (31:29):
you do, you do hang out and and I have purchased, like,
I just kind of like usually havesome copies around so I can give
them to people and things likethat.
Yeah.
And so,

Tami (31:41):
some free little libraries.

Sara (31:43):
oh, I should do that.
Normally, what I do is I givethem to female students who come
to talk to me because they feelthat their male classmates are
explaining things to them ortalking over them, or they will
say something and it isn't untilthe male student says it that

(32:05):
it's recognized.
I had one student, I had onestudent.
Tell me they were working ingroups and she was typing on her
computer and her male classmatetook her computer and started
typing

Tami (32:23):
Why

Sara (32:24):
because he could type faster, better.
I have no idea.
So this book,

Tami (32:30):
could he also land a plane?
I'm sorry, I couldn't, I'msorry, I couldn't help

Sara (32:36):
absolutely.
And this book is a series ofshort essays.
You can be, you know, like, andyou can learn, like, it's not
like, you know, because we areas women incredibly burnt out.
So it's not like extra reading,but I think this goes, this
talks about, like, genderinequality, the patriarchy.
It does, like, trigger warning,getting some violence against
women, just a little heads up,like, because that is, you know,

(32:59):
a very unfortunate part aboutbeing a woman.
I think, like, it opens up,like, one of the first or second
essays is about, like, the statsaround surrounding rape that is
incredibly, alarming.

Tami (33:09):
Like, like if you're in a room with three women, at least
one, like one in three women orsomething like that has been a
victim of sexual assault?
Mm

Sara (33:17):
here in the United States, this is from 2013 it is reported
a rape every 6.
2 minutes.
One in five women will be rapedin their lifetime.
Yes, they are generally to beclear.
I mean, that's a very relevanttopic and not to diminish that
that's generally not whystudents are coming to talk to
me, though.

Tami (33:34):
hmm.

Sara (33:34):
Although mandated reporter, you know, I've heard
great things are very sad thingsover the years, but it really,
it's about, like, women's voicesbeing heard women's voices being
respected.
The book opens up withessentially the, the author,
Rebecca Solnit, I can't, I'm abad being mansplained about her

(33:55):
book that she wrote, either herbook or her article.
So somebody is like mansplainingto her not knowing she was the
author.
And I was like, That's a nicelittle antidote.
We also, this is not like rootedin this book, but I often tell
students, I think it originatedin a Ted talk and they did it on

(34:16):
Grey's Anatomy or vice versa,but like the super man pose that
you're supposed to do, you know,and so I even have told,
especially some of our studentsthat are more introverted, more
meek.
I was like, listen, Before yougo into that classroom, you go
to the bathroom, right?

Tami (34:31):
Mm hmm.
Mm

Sara (34:32):
Stand at a stall or do whatever, you know, and some of
it is just, it's justconfidence.
Like you are, I will say like,you are smarter than most of
them, right?
Like you are, you, you have,have you done the reading,
you've done the writing, you'rearticulate, like you can
respond, your voice can beheard.
And so, And so I think that thatcomes from a space of our

(34:53):
schools, right?
Our administrators, ourdepartment chairs, who even just
like textbook companiescurriculum, you know, that kind
of do like the prepackagedstuff, you know, either who is
writing it or who is ultimatelymaking the decisions.
I just think it's such a slap inthe face when professionals, and
in this instance, femaleprofessionals, are not.
Don't get a seat at the table,

Tami (35:15):
yeah, or they have a seat, but no one's listening to them
at the table, right?

Sara (35:23):
but they need a cowbell.
I need more cowbell.
You know, like,

Tami (35:27):
But it, it's a slippery slope because then if you are,
you know,

Sara (35:33):
oh yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
No.

Tami (35:35):
up with your full presence and like intellect and the
things, you know, in the sameway, I actually just wrote a
LinkedIn post about this, right?
You show up with your voice inthe same way.
As a male would women hearthings like you are too loud.

(35:58):
You are, you know, all thesenegative characteristics.

Sara (36:03):
Mm-Hmm.

Tami (36:03):
then if you happen to also be a woman of color, now you're
aggressive.
You are, you know, there's allthese.
Huge negative stereotypes.
So women are silencingthemselves out of probably
stress.
I'm sure that book talks aboutthat, right?
And protection, right?
Do, is this a battle I want tofight right now?

(36:26):
But I think the most importantquestion would be, is this a
battle we should even have to befighting,

Sara (36:33):
It was interesting I was listening to NPR this morning
ahead of France voting to addabortion to their constitution,
right, to make it and they evensaid, like, they were
interviewing someone, they'relike, are people actually even
against this in your country?
And they're like, no, but we sawwhat happened in America, you
know, we want to make sure thatthis, you know, if other people

(36:55):
are in power and, you know, andit's not about abortion.
P.
S.
It's about access to healthcare.
Sometimes I feel like it's badbranding, right?
Like, who back in 2001, what areyou, who, who was gonna leave a
child behind?
Right.
I mean, that was my,

Tami (37:13):
you know, that was not about children.
That was about money.

Sara (37:17):
that was about my, and so that is when, when I started
teaching I graduated in Decemberof 2003.
So I started teaching during theNCLB era.
And I just remember all the.
All the faculty meetings, let megive you my list of the ones I
want to leave behind, you know,like, but all the different
things we made up for a AYP Iwish I

Tami (37:38):
Bubble kids, remember always talking about the bubble

Sara (37:41):
Okay,

Tami (37:43):
If, if I could go back in time, that would be like,

Sara (37:48):
right?
100%.

Tami (37:51):
up for where we are now to the, to the point where all
we're doing is assessing, like,where's the actual teaching and
instruction.
Like it, it's gotten so out ofcontrol.
Like, I can only hope thateveryone keeps just saying all

(38:11):
the things and the pendulum canswing back to where it needs to
be, because it's just, andyou're taking away so many
things that are of value.

Sara (38:22):
Well, and when, when I have friends who are not in ed,
right.
And they're always like, good,you know, like, oh, but I saw
the test scores online.
I'm like, please, if you aregoing to figure out where you're
going to live based on onlinetest scores, like don't, that
is, first of all, if you'relooking at any test scores since
2020, you basically should justleave America, right?

(38:45):
Like and you know, like, I don'talways need to get into the
nuances of like, well, thesetests are bias and, you know, it
just.
Everything that is, like, ifthat is the sole factor that
you're going to look at theschool that you want, the
community you want to live in,test scores, that would actually
be the last thing that I wouldwant to know.
If I, if I'm being the, I wantto know the class size.

(39:08):
That's what I want to know.
Like, I've always been like aclass size proponent because
I've seen with my children whathappens when they are, when you
just add a few more in.
That's always kind of been my,because I think that, well, and
the stress it adds to teachers,and to parents, and to kiddos,
and it just

Tami (39:27):
yeah.

Sara (39:28):
I taught high school and I had desks touching all four
walls.
It was like a, you know, theystill wanted me to move around,
right?
Cause we gotta be, and movingaround helps with like the
management.
And that was before, by the way,people were one to one.
So it wasn't like they all had alaptop, but it was a little bit
of a maze.

(39:48):
To zip

Tami (39:49):
Yeah, it's,

Sara (39:50):
make my way up to my overhead projector.

Tami (39:53):
Oh my gosh, overhead projector.
There was one year I was in aportable

Sara (39:58):
Oh, I'm so

Tami (39:59):
with 31 6th graders.
It

Sara (40:04):
And then it's like, it's

Tami (40:06):
was too much.

Sara (40:08):
like unfair working conditions and learning
conditions.
That's, you know because evenlike when the, when the pandemic
hit, you know, when teacherswere like, everybody loved us in
March of 2020, but then byAugust, when we were like,
actually, we would like safeworking conditions.
Parents were like, no, take themback.
And then we were like,

Tami (40:27):
Right?
Why are you complaining?
You get summers off.
I mean, that's a whole nother,that's a whole nother
conversation about expectationsand lack of boundaries that
teachers are supposed to have.
Burnout.
Another plug for this book.

Sara (40:41):
I know it.
I'm not.
See, this is written by twosisters.
Maybe they're twins.
I can't remember.
This one, I did not know about.
the bikini industrial complex.
So if you want to just layer inlike how women not only need to
like be meek and quiet there'san entire industry that is also
like a multi million dollarindustry trying to make us feel

(41:03):
like shit about ourselves forthe way that we look and act and

Tami (41:07):
Well, yeah, and it's constantly changing.
Like one year is supposed to belike a toothpick and the next
year, you know, you need a bootyand then, you know, like it's
never the same.

Sara (41:16):
I'll give another plug for a great historical book, Fit
Nation.
Oh, where did I put it?
It's like the history of Ah,here it is.
Fit Nation, the gains and painsof America's exercise obsession.
good.
Like, if you like history, readit.
If you're a woman, read it.

(41:36):
If you like exercise or areoverwhelmed by exercise or don't
know what, like any, you cancheck any of those boxes.
It was so good.

Tami (41:46):
Awesome.

Sara (41:47):
Thank you.
Didn't think that the sports brawas going to make any money.

Tami (41:50):
Wow.

Sara (41:51):
It was Reebok who was like, Hey, we'll get in on the
women's here

Tami (41:56):
Go Reebok.

Sara (41:57):
because women were wearing jock straps as sports bras

Tami (42:02):
I did not know that.

Sara (42:04):
didn't either.
But then I was like, yeah, whatdid they do before sports bras?

Tami (42:08):
wore like three bras,

Sara (42:10):
Great.
Oh yeah.
So

Tami (42:13):
something like that.
Oh, my gosh.
Oh, my gosh.
Okay.

Sara (42:16):
we're, we've got, this is, this is what it's like to have a
conversation with me.
I apologize if you wanted it

Tami (42:22):
this is what it's like to just have a conversation.
This is how our human brainswork, right?
And I, I actually would sharethis a lot with my pre service
teachers because they would wantto do group work or have, you
know, this time for students tohave a conversation.
So I think this is a reallyimportant thing to say.
This is what humans do becauseyou're, you know, Talking about

(42:42):
something and it makes you builda connection or you have a
connection to something else.
And so you'll go talk about thatbecause it makes sense to what
you were talking about.
And then it brings you back towhere you were.
That's a very natural, normalhuman thing.
And teachers, that is what youdo.
You do it all the time.
You do it in professionaldevelopment.
You're not quiet the whole time.
You don't sit still the wholetime.
You're not, not touching yourphone the whole time.

(43:04):
So.
So please let's have some gracefor our students.
That's my plug for students.
Okay.
Let's stop expecting youngpeople to do things that full
grown adult people cannot do.
So, no, but I think this makessense, right?
Like all these things.
That are happening to women,historically speaking about
women, women in history or notas much as history.

(43:27):
I just really think that's sointeresting about, I had this
conversation, maybe I had itwith Kate.
We were talking about, or I haveanother colleague who does
history from anotherinstitution.
And you know, all these coachesend up in history.
Because I don't know, somehow wethink history is not important.
So I, which I don't understandbecause history is really

(43:48):
important

Sara (43:49):
Yeah.

Tami (43:49):
because that's how we learn and try to do better as
humans.
So you have female students.
You mentioned you have femalestudents come to see you.
Because of sort of the malegaze, is that the right way to
maybe the male gaze, the malepositionality, historically
speaking in, in history.
Ooh, huh?

Sara (44:11):
Privilege.

Tami (44:12):
Male privilege.
That's probably, yes.
Ding, ding, ding.
The male privilege that exists.
So how has.
Being able to be in this spaceright where this is again as
another form of representationmatters and having people that
look like you or may have hadsome similar Experience or can

(44:36):
understand your perspectiveBetter than maybe some others
are really important.
How do you see that happening orcoming together in your worker?

Sara (44:45):
I think that, okay, for all my students, right, if I ask
them, like, what do you, wheredo you see yourself in five
years, right, a lot of them willbe like, I see myself teaching,
maybe having started a master's,they'll say different variations
of something about a family, youknow, or maybe not, you know,
thing, you know, kind of likein, in that realm.

(45:06):
And, and I want to be like,great.
And but what if you're notright?
Because the whole idea that wewant you to stay in the
profession, but a lot of peopleare leaving in those first,
like, three to five years.

Tami (45:17):
Yeah

Sara (45:19):
And so I've been trying to find a way to help our students
understand that teaching ishard.

Tami (45:29):
Mm hmm

Sara (45:30):
Especially in the beginning, like it is, you're
going to have to dig deep.
Like you're going to have towork through hard stuff.
Like I'm not, and to be clear, Isay to them, cause my husband is
not in education.
I'd be like, I can also say forsomeone who's in the private
sector, like things have notalways been great.
So like teaching is not the onlyprofession that is hard, right.

Tami (45:49):
Mm hmm.

Sara (45:50):
But you do have to like set, set like goals and
expectations for yourself.
And then I say to him, causesome of my female students.
Sometimes they're like, Dr.
P, I just want to grow up and beyou.
And at first I'm like, that'sincredibly flattering.
They're like, you're just, youknow, you got two kids and you

(46:11):
have two masters, PhD, you know,and this and that.
And I want to be like, I wantyou to know that was really,
really hard.
Like I'll give like an anecdote,right?
So one day I'm teaching, it's acollege class.
Right.
And I know.
It's a 300 level, it's a seniorclass it's a social studies
methods class.
I know a lot of these students.

(46:32):
My husband is out of town forwork, so I am what we call in
our household, the parent onduty, as in I'm in town, but I
can't totally be on duty becauseI'm teaching, right?
I'm teaching and I just put theminto groups, I set a timer on
the board for like seven minutesor something like that to have
them work, and I see a call comethrough for my kid's school.

(46:52):
It's like the dreaded, I'm like,no.

Tami (46:55):
Like, oh! Oh, that's the worst feeling.

Sara (46:58):
I'm like, just, and I automatically, I don't even know
what the call has entailed, whoit is in regards to, but I've
already gone into problem solvermode while also still trying to
like think about this class.
So I answer the phone, it's thenurse, can you come get Brooke?
And I'm like, I can't.
And then I'm, I'm thinkingthrough my Rolodex, like, I'm
like, oh my God, everybody thatwe are friends with here in town

(47:21):
that could go collect this childfor me and take her home is a
teacher or an educator or islike.
Here on campus teaching rightnow.
And so I have a student andanother who is One of the
benefits being on a collegecampus is you have a lot of
responsible drivers.
So I say,

Tami (47:38):
Yes, I, I used some former students for my child pickup
people for

Sara (47:43):
Oh, so basically I'm about to have Brie, my current driver
in my next class.
I call Brie, Brie, can you goget my daughter, can you take
her home and then be back inclass?
And, and I was like, and I'llpay you, right?

Tami (47:58):
hmm.

Sara (47:58):
And drops everything.
I called the nurse back.
I'm like, here's the name ofthe, the, you know, the person
who's going to come get it, comeget her.
All this stuff works out.
It's I do all that in less thanseven minutes and then I cut the
timer goes off and I come backand I'm like, I'm ready to just
move on.
Right.
And all students are just likesitting there like this.
They're like, did you just dothat?

(48:21):
I was like, I was like, so to beclear, like when you're teaching
high school, that wouldn't bethe very best way.
And they're like, wait, wait,wait, you just like parented and
taught us at the same time.
And I was like, okay, soactually that's like, okay.
And not a great I'm actuallysetting a really like bad
example of how to do but likethat's the expectation right
like the other parent was out oftown.

(48:41):
I was trying to do the very bestI could to keep with my
obligations.
And so some of the femalestudents talked to me a couple
days later and they're justlike, so we said that we wanted
to be you but it turns out thatlike being you might be a lot of
work, and I was like, yeah, likeit is.
Yeah.
I have all like I would hats,plates, whatever you're doing,

(49:02):
like, I can't just be like,okay, from 11 to 1215, I am just
going to be your professor forthis class.
And like, usually that is mysole responsibility.
And I just realized that nightwhy I felt this intense level of
burnout.
And I felt like I had to comehome and disassociate because I
had to keep doing what I wasdoing.

(49:24):
Right.
No, could I have stopped what Iwas doing and cancelled my
classes and gone and got mydaughter?
Yes.
It would, you know, I reallyfelt based on what the nurse
told me, I think, like, I didn'tfeel to be clear and I'm
sounding like a terrible mother.
I didn't feel that it requiredme.

(49:44):
I think she just needed to behome.

Tami (49:46):
You don't sound like a terrible mother, but that, you
know, there's an actual theoryabout that.
But like the good enough mother,if you heard about this, yeah.
Right.
That's not a thing.
Like, and mothers do that.
They're like, Oh, I feel, no,you, you took care of your
child.

Sara (50:03):
Her needs, her needs were met in between.
And I, of course, it was a daythat I taught back to back
classes.
In that 10 minutes, I talked toher on the phone, made sure
everything was okay.
Taught another, you know, and solike, I think this.
And that's just like oneexample, like if you are, you
know, in high school when you'reteaching high school and it's,
you know, it's a seven periodday or eight period day and you

(50:27):
know, you teach five of them andyou know, you have a plan period
and then you have a lunch and aduty like there is, I think you
are on so much of ourprofession.
Not, you know, like I even waslike joking, I was like doing
this podcast at seven o'clock atnight should definitely be out

(50:47):
of my bra and in yoga pants atthis point.
Like, it'll be on zoom.
So I got to think about that.
I was talking to my parents lastnight.
I was like, Oh, I got to getinto my pajamas.
Like, please know I need to getI'm in comfy clothes.
I need to get into morecomfortable clothes.
Like there's a trajectory.

Tami (51:07):
Yes.

Sara (51:08):
But I think that For women, I'm going to speak about
women in education because I,this happens to all my female
friends that are also in thecorporate world, in realtors,
anything, any, any woman.
I feel like we often do ourjobs.

(51:29):
We do some of the invisiblefemale related tasks and
depending on what's going on inyour personal life and to be
clear, I have a wonderfulhusband.
He's an excellent co parent butlike our responsibilities don't
just stop during those bellhours.
And so I can see burnout is abig part of that.
even higher for female teachers.

(51:52):
I have often, so I just now havea child in high school.
So I still have my license, butI haven't used my nine through
12 license in a while.
So it's like theoretically thefirst time I could teach one of
my children.
And let's just know that thatwould be go disastrous.
It would be, I'm like yesterdayhe had to write a paper and he

(52:13):
was like, I shouldn't have dadread it.
I was like, you're right.
I, And to be clear, my husbandis a grammar genius, but like,
no, I don't teach people how towrite or have written a
dissertation, thesis, you knowbut I often, when my children
were little, would wonder, I waslike, how do elementary school
teachers do this and then gohome and have their own small

(52:38):
children?

Tami (52:39):
You know, I actually taught elementary, middle, I've
taught all grades, elementary,middle, and high school and
college.
I'm a weird little unicorn girl.

Sara (52:51):
You are a unicorn.
So

Tami (52:52):
know, I

Sara (52:53):
your favorite?

Tami (52:55):
Oh, you know what?
I like them all for differentreasons,

Sara (52:58):
That's what you say, especially with like, who's your
favorite child?

Tami (53:00):
but I really mean it.
Like, that's not a cop outanswer.
Like, I really do enjoy them fordifferent reasons.
The elementary kids, I justlove, they're just.
So curious and they're just,they're also like really cute,
but I just love their curiosityand they just think of things
and they just share those thingsand oftentimes they haven't like

(53:23):
yet hit the world that's toldthem that that's weird.
Right.
And they just are themselves.
And I love that about elementarykids.
Middle schoolers, I feel likeget this bad rap, right?
But I love this juxtaposition ofthem like where they're like
still kind of kid like but thenthey're trying to be grown And

(53:44):
they they get sarcasm now, whichis super fun Right, so they're a
fun middle school group.
High school kids, you could havesome really in depth
conversation with high schoolkids.
They really are like pioneersand like a lot of ways around
advocating, especially highschool kids now, right?

(54:09):
They're, they're really tryingto use their voice.
And I actually think we couldtake some lessons from these
young people about how toadvocate for what's important to
us and be a little relentlessabout it.
I love that.
Like be.
Unshakably relentless about whatsets your soul on fire and what

(54:29):
is important, right?
Like truly important.
So, you know, and they're,they're like trying to figure
out what they want to do in, inthe world.
Right.
And so, you know, and thencollege students are also trying
to figure out what they'redoing, but

Sara (54:45):
but they can drink and not, and they're not required to
go to class.

Tami (54:50):
Right?
I, I mean, and I, I had theprivilege.
I mostly taught juniors andseniors cause you know, I was in
teacher ed too.
So it was like at the pointwhere they were like interested
in their career at anotherinstitution.
Like I worked with freshmen andstuff and they were trying to
figure it out, but I just enjoy,like they're also figuring out
what they want to do and likethe potential and the, of these
folks to go out into the fieldof education with their thoughts

(55:14):
and ideas.
So I, I, I enjoyed them all

Sara (55:19):
In like So I have a so and I have my I can teach junior
high but I never did.
But my daughter's in eighthgrade.
And so, and so basically likefor the past four years, you
know, my son is in ninth grade,my son's a freshman.
So it's been very interesting.
You know, like I said, I canactually like I have taught high
school and could theoreticallyteach him.

(55:41):
And it's at.
And he also, I should share,like, he is autistic and has
ADHD, so we have a lot of theseconversations about how, like,
our public schools are not builtfor neurodiverse kids, right?
And, and how,

Tami (55:56):
Mm

Sara (55:58):
when I studied and like, well, how did you study?
I spent so much time and I'mlike, but what did you do during
that?
You know, it's just like, and,you know, when, when things are
so black and white, To him.
It's just in, and I guess that'sanother piece to go back to.
I think you may have only askedme one question, maybe two, but
to go back to like my veryfirst, your first question about

(56:20):
diversity, equity and inclusion.
I think that an area ofeducation that I never really
thought of.
I felt as a general ed teacher,I was in IEP meetings.
Right.
And even as a collegeinstructor, I, I meet all the
accommodations.
Right.
I feel like I have, I have moreaccommodations now than I used
to.
I have like a folder.

(56:40):
I even actually then startedjust keeping a note, like on
like a quick one, like thisclass and just so I can
remember.
Because in high school, therewas a person that did that for
you, right?
That is, is one drawback of, andwe can talk about that even too,
like, how do we meet theaccommodations?
We have all these kiddos who'vehad accommodations K 12, and

(57:00):
they come in and, you know,sometimes people who weren't
previously K 12 teachers, theydon't even really understand
accommodations, right?
Or,

Tami (57:08):
Well, yes, because historically speaking, you just
need to be an expert in yourcontent, not necessarily an
educator in higher ed.
Yeah.
Mm

Sara (57:18):
here, it, it is more work.
Now, I would say most of my Thatjust because of the nature of my
classes, a lot of them are justlike time and a half, but I
don't, like on exams, like Idon't really give exams, like a
lot of it's like papers andlesson plans, you know, but I
tell when I do teach freshmenand even now when I teach
juniors and seniors, I say,listen, you had an

(57:40):
accommodation, K 12, now is notthe time to take the training
wheels off.
Right.
Like, use your accommodations.
Because you still, you stillhave these four years of
teaching or four years as astudent.
So I think that that had been aninteresting space for me as a
parent.
So Jake was diagnosed between4th and 5th grade.

(58:01):
So that was so basically when hewas in 5th grade, that was the
1st time I attended an IEPmeeting as a parent and.
Even my husband, again, not ineducation, you know, I had
printed out an IP, it washighlighted, I had notes,
everything, and he like read itand everything, but afterwards
he was like, what do people doif, if they go into one of these

(58:22):
meetings and one of the twopeople aren't in education?

Tami (58:26):
Yeah.

Sara (58:27):
And to be clear, like, they've all, they've all had
great interactions andeverything, but like even the
system, It's like a law that'smeant to help and protect kids
and to give them, you know, theleast restrictive environment
and everything.
But sometimes I think that it'snot only overwhelming for the
student, but it's overwhelmingfor the, for the parents.
And so I think that that'sanother piece of the diversity,

(58:49):
equity and inclusion,

Tami (58:51):
Mm hmm.

Sara (58:52):
I like to use in my, I use the word neuro spicy.
But you are, are, are neuro areneuro diverse friends because
they, that it's a whole, youknow, and you hear people say
like, everybody has a diagnosisnow or everybody's on a
prescription now.
And I was like, well, but thething is like, there's a really
good chance that.

(59:12):
People were just not beingdiagnosed for a really long
time.
We didn't know we didn't hit,you know,

Tami (59:18):
Oh, I, I would agree with that.
Like, we didn't know what wedidn't know.
And now that we know, right?
I think the worst thing to do isalways look at, like, how
something was done to determinehow something should be done.
Like, because just becauseyou've done it that way in the
past doesn't mean that's stillthe best way.
Because when you know more, youshould do better.

(59:41):
Right?
Like, and even access.
Yes.
To come to those IEP meetings,right, because I don't know what
the solution is that but theyalways have in the middle of the
day and if you have parents thatcan't get there, like, and I'm
not saying that teachers shouldhave to stay after school, but
you know, there's a lot ofcomplicated things around access
that are really important tothink about too related to that

(01:00:05):
because that's a whole barrierfor folks.

Sara (01:00:08):
even just knowing, like, to your example earlier, you
said earlier, like, everybodythinks they're an expert in
education because they were astudent once.
Right.
And so, but when you're comingto that space as a parent who
needs an accommodation, youknow, if you had a, you had a,
like, first of all, even walkinginto a high school or junior

(01:00:29):
high can just like triggertrauma.
Right.
Like or assuming that like yourbad experience is also going to
happen to your kid, you know,like, and even just I have found
that the, the, the.
The people that we have workedwith have been really awesome
and accommodating especiallybecause, like, I ask questions

(01:00:50):
from the perspective of a, of aneducator, but I'm not a special
educator, you know, in a I was ageneral ed and my husband asks
questions from somebody who,like, Didn't have an IEP,
doesn't know, you know, he, heknows Jake and he knows what
will work best for him, like,and I think even just like,

(01:01:16):
whether you have a diagnosis ornot, like a new space that I,
that, that teacher ed, a newresponsibility of teacher ed is
executive function.
I now spend and my colleagues aswell, like their advisor and
other folks teaching methodsclasses, we now have to say, do

(01:01:36):
you have a planner?
Do you know how to use aplanner?
Because this, I hate saying likethis generation, this group, the
Google classroom group, and theythink that going into what we
now use Canvas, Just going inthere and finding due dates,
like that's their planner.
And we're like, no, no, no, no,no, no.
Like, it's figuring, you know,learning how to balance, like I

(01:02:00):
sat down with a student once.
I said, okay, let's lay, I dothis regularly now, teaching
them how to plan their week.

Tami (01:02:07):
Yeah.

Sara (01:02:08):
down when you have class, when you work, this and that.
Then we tell them, scheduling,like what, What is, what, what
do you like?
What makes you tick?
You know, some of them, youknow, I like to lift, you know,
I like, you know, what I like toread.
Okay, we schedule it in.
I say, let's just for funschedule in 8 hours of sleep.

(01:02:28):
Okay, just because.
Okay, and even though we'rehistory majors, let's do a
little math.
There's 24 hours in a day andthen I show them that little
graphic that little chart thatsays, like, if you have a 3
credit class, like, how manyhours a week, it's, you know,
Okay.
So, okay.
And let's, and so we do the mathand it like, you just see like

(01:02:51):
the steam coming out of theirear.
They're like, the math doesn'tmath.
Like it does it, you know?
And so it's just teaching themhow to manage their time because
they were in high school.
Where there was 50 minutes everyday, a lot of because they see
your teacher every day.
A lot of time is built in towork on things in class.

(01:03:13):
You, your evenings werescheduled, right?
Whether you worked or whetheryou were babysitting or whether
you had this practice, like,your whole day was figured out
for you and then you get tocollege and you make a schedule
and you have to figure thesethings out.
And like, they, like, they, theyjust, they can't do it.

Tami (01:03:31):
Yeah.

Sara (01:03:33):
And it's, it is, it is a, like a hate, like blaming things
on COVID, but I do think like,it's a, I did not have to spend
this much time executivefunctioning, time management,
how to use a planner.
I did, that is something I didnot do regularly before COVID

Tami (01:03:53):
Hmm.
That's interesting.

Sara (01:03:56):
because they don't do planner check, right?
Like think about like in juniorhigh and high school.
Well, not maybe not so much highschool, maybe freshmen, but like
in junior high, even inelementary, like I remember
signing my kids planners andthen it just like went away
because it's on a device.

Tami (01:04:13):
I never had to sign a planner, nor did I ever, that
was never even an expectation,but you know, I'm a Gen Xer.
So I was literally responsiblefor myself by the time I was
like seven.
So

Sara (01:04:27):
I'm in this weird space.
Where I am considered ageriatric millennial, which I
think is just really mean, like,because

Tami (01:04:36):
that,

Sara (01:04:38):
I was born in 1982.
So, like, I had things like wehad a landline, right?
Like, we were able, like, I mademixed tapes.
There's like a whole list ofthings that, like, make you a
before and after.

Tami (01:04:53):
yes, no, but you know, So even if they're digital, I think
this brings up a good point,right?
Like we need to think about astimes move, how do our systems
and structures change to helpsupport students with success?

(01:05:14):
And it may look different thanit did before.
what do I do now?
Oh, I always had a planner or Isigned a planner.
I used a paper planner.
Like I haven't used paperplanner myself in a long time.
Cause I love, like I had, assoon as I had a Blackberry and I
could like color code stuff,like I was like a happy girl,

Sara (01:05:30):
and what we tell them is, you don't have to have a paper
planner, right?
Okay.
But you have, you have to have asystem, you know, a lot of them
be like, I use this sticky notefeature on my laptop.
That's not a system, you know,like, or they'll say like, I
make a huge long to do list andI get overwhelmed.
I say, okay, I got a strategyfor you.
Make your huge long to do list,pick the top three things, do

(01:05:54):
those three things, and then gowatch one episode of a show on
Netflix, and then come back.
You know what I mean?
Like, and so they, it's justthe, the strategies, I guess,

Tami (01:06:04):
Yes.

Sara (01:06:05):
And so I don't, I don't have, I mean, I use a hybrid
model of a calendar, like wehave a family shared calendar
that I have shoot into myOutlook calendar, but I also
still I like to sometimes, Ilike to paper it and kind of
make, I do a little bit of both.

Tami (01:06:25):
That's fair.
That's fair.

Sara (01:06:26):
There's no right way or

Tami (01:06:28):
There is no right or wrong way.
You find your own system.
And make it work for you andborrow from other people's
systems.
So, well, Sara, Sara, Sara, thishas been such, such a pleasure.
And I always like to end with apro tip advice.
What would be, when we'rethinking about equity work,

(01:06:49):
what's kind of your pro tip andadvice for the listeners?

Sara (01:06:53):
So I'm gonna mess up the quote.
But Shirley Chisholm quote Ugh,wait.
It's one of those things thatlike, I have it in my if they
don't give you a seat at thetable, bring a folding chair.
That is Shirley Chisholm.
If they don't give you a seat atthe table, bring a folding
chair.
And so I think that I think my,my message is, okay.

(01:07:17):
Couple parts.
If you're at the table who doyou need to invite in Voice is
not being heard because you youhave the privilege of being at a
table.
So who else can you invite?
And advocate for yourself.
I think that it's reallyimportant to, it's gonna, it's
gonna make you uncomfortablefrom time to time.
But I do think you have to saylike, this situation is wrong

(01:07:40):
and there needs to be othervoices at this table.
So yeah, I used a historicalquote for my pro tip.

Tami (01:07:47):
I love it, though.
I love it because those are bothvery important things for us to
think about and reflect on inour equity journey.
Because how do you use yourallyship to support, you The
equity efforts and otherpeople's voices.
So I love that.
I want to thank you, Sara, somuch for your time today.

(01:08:09):
It has been such a pleasuretalking to you.
I want to, yes, so fun.
And thank you all the listeners.
I will make sure to put links inthe show notes to the books we
talked about today.
And remember to like, share, andsubscribe to this podcast and
share with your educatorfriends.
And remember to use your voicetoday.