Equity in Education: Transforming Classrooms through DEI Practices

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tami (00:00):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of

(00:03):
the Dragonfly Rising podcastwith me, your

Brandon Podcast Recording (00:05):
host, Dr.
Tami Dean.
I am

Tami (00:08):
super excited.
Today, our special guest is Dr.
Brandon Thornton.
He is a high school special edEnglish and math teacher from
Bloomington High School inBloomington, Illinois.
Brandon, welcome today.

Hi,

Brandon (00:22):
happy to be

here.

Tami (00:23):
We are so excited.
Brandon like Hey, does someamazing DEI and equity work and
has worn lots

hats and he's

Tami (00:30):
going to share

a little bit

Tami (00:32):
about that work and some, some tips with us today.
Brandon, one of the things Ilove to ask everyone when they
come on the podcast is aroundyour personal equity work
journey, because I believe thatthis journey is a marathon and
it's constant and it evolves aswe learn more and do more.

(00:54):
Share with us a little bit

about

Tami (00:56):
your experience and your own equity journey.

Brandon (01:00):
Sure.
I think I'm probably along thelines of a lot, like a lot of
listeners who, you know, DEI, weprobably knew it was here before
it became a buzzword, right?
And so for me, I've always knownabout diversity, equity

Brandon Podcast Reco (01:14):
inclusion,

Brandon (01:15):
and of course, it's taken different names over the
decades.
But my journey is, is pretty,pretty unique.
I feel like, you know, As an

Brandon Podcast Record (01:24):
American

Brandon (01:24):
teacher, you know, there's not a lot of people who
look like me, and that's been myentire experience,

even as a kid.

Brandon (01:31):
I was one of four black students in the honors English
classes when I got to IllinoisState University.
I was the only black

Brandon Podcast Recordin (01:40):
person who

Brandon (01:41):
was majoring in mathematics education.
So my whole four years, neversaw any other person that looked
like me in the undergraduateprogram.
And within the honors program atISU was the same kind of
situation.
And then when I became ateacher,

once again,

Brandon (01:57):
Maybe one of five and I teach in a district that is the
third most diverse district inthe state.
And so for the staff to notmatch that, it was kind of
disheartening.
But still, that was my

right?

Brandon (02:08):
That was my, I've always been the only black guy.
And so I never really realizedit was problematic.
Until I started my master'sprogram in special ed.
And then eventually my doctoratein special ed, where I started
reading that this was a problem,which is kind of funny because
it didn't feel like a problem

until I was reading about

Brandon (02:28):
myself.
yeah, yeah,

Tami (02:33):
your lived experience, it is what it is what, what drew
you to being an educator?

Sure.

Brandon (02:39):
So despite teachers not looking

me,

Brandon (02:42):
I still had.
Wonderful teachers.
Honestly, my first teacher thatlooked like me was in third
grade.
Her name

Miss

Brandon (02:48):
Johnson.
And then I had Miss Michaellater on, and both of them, I
remember them standing in thehall, greeting kids as they came
in, and it just felt like I wasat home.
It felt like, I was finally, Idon't know, I never felt any
different from my otherteachers, but it just felt
special there.
They look like my mom, you knowwhat I mean?
So I, it just felt verycomfortable.

(03:09):
But I was still too young.
Didn't really understand like,Oh, I could be a teacher.
It really didn't hit me untilhigh school.
I had really great math teacherswho would I guess I was a nerd
because I was in my lunch andmath class.
class talking to them.
And because of that, they wouldoften have me come in after
school and just help otherstudents.
And I really loved that feelingof helping others and,

them

Brandon (03:33):
saying things and it feeling like, Oh, wait a minute,
I can do this as a career.
And so that's kind of whathappened there.
And then the same thing was truefor my English classes.
I never felt othered in myEnglish classes.
And so I was kind of on thefence, like, should I teach math
or English?
And now I get to do both.
My mom, obviously she was thefirst teacher that I knew.

(03:53):
She owned a preschool.
So growing up, I always knewthat I was either going to take
over the family business or dosomething else.
And then it didn't really turninto high school until I went to
high school.
So

Tami (04:08):
And then you thought, I like these high school kids.

Brandon (04:11):
Yeah.
And obviously I had to work inthe, in the summers at my mom's
preschool and I kind of knew,oh, I can't do this age group.

Brandon Podcast Recordi (04:19):
There's no way.

Tami (04:21):
Know, it's funny how we find our niche.
I remember subbing when I firstfinished my undergrad to be a
teacher.
And First graders are great.
Love first graders.
I had to be in a kindergartenclass.
I was like, nope, nope,

nope.
Yeah.
Bless you kindergarten teachers

Tami (04:41):
out there.
You are amazing.
I can even handle the littletoddlers, you know, but I

don't know something

Tami (04:45):
that kindergarten.
That's a special.
But I taught middle school too,right?
And people say the same thing.
They say the same thing abouthigh school,

everyone has their.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Tami (04:54):
Yes.
I want to come back to somethingyou were saying about, as you
move through your master's andthen into your doctorate, and
then you started reading things,I'm really curious how and what
you were reading and what, Andhow that is influenced where
you've moved into your equitywork today.
Mm hmm.

So

Brandon (05:16):
disproportionality, right?
That

that wasn't

Brandon (05:18):
a word to me.
That's not a word that peoplejust throw out on social media.
It's not a word you have in acasual conversation.
What do you think aboutdisproportionality?
So I had

never heard the word

Brandon (05:28):
until I read about it.
And that word was alwaysattached to blackness, right?
There's a disproportionatepercentage of black and Hispanic
males who are being disciplinedmore than their peers.
And so I didn't even understandwhat that meant.
But it was everywhere, It was inall these articles.
And so I kept reading it,

and

Brandon (05:46):
then I just kept wondering why, like, what?
Every article has therecommendations and it's always
like, we need a more diverseteaching workforce to

combat this.

Brandon (05:54):
And so I just, I, obviously that's an obvious
solution, but for me, it waslike, yeah, that's true.
Why don't we have more peoplewho look like me in the
classroom?

And then I

Brandon (06:05):
just

felt on this rabbit

Brandon (06:06):
hole of, is it systemic?
It's like, and then kind ofpaused, took a little

because

Brandon (06:12):
is overwhelming to learn about the world's problems
and feel like you can't solve

them.

Brandon (06:17):
But the whole thing with George Floyd propelled me
back

that

Brandon (06:20):
work.
I was in the middle of mydoctorate work at that time and
a lot of things were happeningwith alumni from my school who
were coming back and havingdemands for the district to say
A, we need a more diversecurriculum, and B, we need a
more diverse workforce.
And to see Gen Z kind of rise upand demand these things kind of

(06:42):
forced me to be like, you shoulddo it too.

There's no reason I shouldn't,

Brandon (06:46):
that kind of like, got me back into it.

The reason I took

Brandon (06:49):
a break from even like, thinking about all the things
was because I was a subject of alot of FOIA

Brandon Podcast Recor (06:54):
requests.
For those

Brandon (06:55):
listening, that's the Freedom of Information Act, and
it wasn't like I was up to

anything

Brandon (07:00):
sinister.
I don't think, I don't know.

You know, you probably were not, but

Tami (07:05):
perception sometimes doesn't always equal reality

and it really was,

Brandon (07:10):
it was the perception because my name was attached to
several different student leadergroups, not in our school.
Things that kids were havingdemands on.
Maybe I was adjacent to them.
I coached speech and debate.
And so a lot of those kids

were in speech and debate.

Brandon (07:26):
And so my name just kept coming up.
I spoke at a gun rally.
And so all these.
FOIAs are digging for things

about Critical Race Theory,

Brandon (07:36):
and

DEI, and

Brandon (07:38):
at the time, I didn't

have

Brandon (07:39):
anything to show for it.
Like Critical race theory, wedon't do anyways, but like, DEI,

Tami (07:44):
we don't do Critical Race Theory in schools?
That's

not a thing?

Tami (07:46):
thing?

Brandon (07:49):
Shocker,

Tami (07:49):
Plot twist!

it's not a thing, it's not happening,
literally.
Your children are not earningdoctorates, y'all.
They are

Tami (07:57):
are not talking about critical race theory.

Brandon (08:00):
Exactly.

So

Brandon (08:02):
yeah, that was kind of my like, okay, I need to be
doing more.
People already think

I am

Brandon (08:08):
anyways, so I

as well.

Tami (08:11):
You're like, let me meet your

Brandon Podcast Re (08:13):
expectations

Tami (08:14):
and just put my hat back in the ring.

Brandon (08:17):
Yeah.
Absolutely.

Tami (08:20):
know what else I love about what you just shared?
I think sometimes Gen Z gets abad rap

about things and,

Tami (08:28):
I do appreciate their willingness to use their voice,
the things that they feelpassionate and compelled to
share their voice about, and,That's one of the missions and
messages of this podcast itselfis use your voice there is power
in your voice and when yourvoice connects with others who
are also using their voice, itjust exponentially has the

(08:52):
opportunity to change some ofthe systemic systems.
That have been in place

and make

Tami (08:58):
people aware.
Right?
Because maybe, you grew up inthem.
You don't even know,

recognize

Tami (09:05):
necessarily some of the oppressive systems that are
there because they've just beenthere.

Brandon (09:12):
Right.

Tami (09:14):
Yeah.

Brandon (09:14):
that's a very good point, because, at the start of
the pandemic, all we had was

social media,

Brandon (09:19):
we were all quarantining.
And so a lot of people in mylife were confused.
like why are kids

demands

Brandon (09:25):
on the school?
George Floyd is this isolatedevent.
And so I kind of had to helpconnect them to

George

Brandon (09:30):
Floyd happened because perceptions of black males

and these

Brandon (09:32):
perceptions are because of these things that we let
slide for so long and it's hardfor them to get ahead because of
the systemic issues and so Ireally have to be vulnerable and
share my truth through lettersto the editor and poetry that I
was sharing about growing upwith microaggressions hearing
things like you're reallyeloquent for a black person or

(09:54):
whatever.
I, you know, I didn't reallylike black people until I met
you.
People would say that to me allthe time growing up, and I used
to think it was a compliment.
People still tell me, like, oh,you're like an Oreo, black on
the outside, but white on

inside.
That's what I'm like, like,

Brandon (10:09):
you're cool.
People say that still, like it'ssome compliment like I

should be like,

Brandon (10:12):
yay! I'm white passing, even though that term doesn't
even matter, like, match what Iam.

And so,

Brandon (10:19):
I had to call those things out.
and I did hurt a

lot

Brandon (10:22):
of feelings.
People would text me longapologies, even though it wasn't
about them, but in their ownreflective journey, Oh, I, I
used to say things like, you'remy only black friend and I
didn't know that would hurt you.

I'm

Brandon (10:34):
like, it is hurtful because why am I your only black
friend?
We like,

Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Oh.

Tami (10:41):
And I'm sure there was some of that.
Well, I'm a nice person, so Ican't be biased.
It's coming from a good place.
I like you.
We're friends.

Brandon (10:49):
Mm hmm.

Tami (10:50):
that narrative that tends to reoccur around some of those
microaggressions.

Right.

Brandon (10:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.

And that's why it's a
microaggression.

Brandon (11:00):
Of course you'd untend.
But

it's

Brandon (11:02):
hurt.
It's still stung,

Tami (11:05):
And well, and connects back to your implicit bias
because you don't

Brandon Podcast Rec (11:09):
necessarily realize

Tami (11:11):
why that's a

Right.
Right.

Brandon (11:15):
I think online, they are not microaggressions.
People know exactly what they'resaying when they say it.
Mm

Yeah.
The power of hiding

Tami (11:23):
behind a screen

has

Tami (11:25):
brought out some very interesting

conversation or

Tami (11:31):
use of

words.
Absolutely.
You know,

Tami (11:35):
which is interesting, because it was always there.
It was just maybe more

So is it better?

Tami (11:39):
Is subversive better or is it being overt?
That is better in that.
Can we make more change whenit's being there being overt
versus

Brandon (11:49):
Yeah,

I kind

Brandon (11:51):
of think overt, it's hurts, but it's better because
now there's evidence now we canscreenshot.
I'm

okay, we

Brandon (11:56):
can call people in more we can acknowledge that it
exists now, like it's easier totrack

now, unfortunately.

Brandon (12:04):
Yeah,

Tami (12:08):
It's like

a,

Tami (12:10):
good for that, to maybe prompt the conversation, and bad
because it's just that emotionaltoll like you were talking about

earlier.
It's

Tami (12:18):
just there and it's exhausting and

doing this work

Tami (12:22):
while it's important really does Take a lot of
personal emotional

energy.

Tami (12:29):
So hop back into the ring, Did some policy work and You
know, wearing, kind of doingwhat

do

Tami (12:41):
with students and supporting the students with,,
advising or, because studentgroups need a teacher

to,

Tami (12:50):
you know what's the word I'm looking for?
Super, supervise, for lack of abetter word.
Supervise them, right?
They have to have an educatorthere that's responsible for
them.
And then you were doing somepersonal work I'm sure there are
teachers on here that are like,how do I those two worlds?

Brandon (13:07):
Sure.
Yeah.
Balance is a good

word actually.

Brandon (13:11):
And that's what I had to do.
Me personally, I didn't reallywant to.
Mix my policy work with what washappening in school.
Both were at DEI centered, butthe clubs that I sponsor, our
school is very, our districtattorney is very intentional,
they're, they're called studentled clubs and the sponsor just

(13:32):
opens up their classroom.
And, and so a lot of the thingsthat the students were fighting
for were adjacent to what I wasdoing, but I was intentional on
not saying we should do this.
And so really they just inspiredme to act.
Once I took off my teacher hat,Although I guess we don't have
teacher hats anymore.
They're like permanentnightcaps.

(13:52):
I don't know.
Once

I,

Brandon (13:54):
once I powered down,

Tami (13:57):
We

down?
Yeah, not even, not even that.

Brandon (14:00):
Just used social media as a way to say what I said.
For my Instagram, I opened itup.
Anyone could follow me.
Students, parents, teachers,Facebook was where I would share
my draft to the public letter tothe editor.
I would always repost things.
I was writing.
But still my work with theRacism Free Schools Act.
No one knew about that, but thatwas something that I was

(14:23):
secretly doing on the sidebecause I just didn't want to
have

explain myself.

Brandon (14:29):
I knew it

it was

Brandon (14:29):
important and the team people I was

working with knew was important and that
was all I needed.

Brandon (14:34):
I didn't want to have to explain to people outside of
teaching why we need policies inplace where students can report
racial harassment just in thesame way they can report sexual
harassment.
I didn't want to have to explainto

people

Brandon (14:47):
because The word race was still dicey at the time.
And so, I was very intentionalon keeping that to myself, that
way I could still feel excitedabout it.
You know, when you, when youshare certain things with
people, then you gotta likedefend it so much that it just
becomes Oh my goodness.
And so, I didn't,

if

Brandon (15:06):
you ask my principal, he probably doesn't even know
that

that, that that happened.

Tami (15:11):
Well, it sounds like you didn't want to feel like, you
needed to ask permission, right?

is it okay that I'm

Tami (15:17):
doing this?
Because it

definitely is okay.
So,

Tami (15:22):
tell me a little bit about, For the people that don't
live in, In Illinois the racismfree school policy and that
advocacy work you were

doing.

Brandon (15:35):
Sure.
So this was, this was ledthrough a program called teach
plus teach plus is national, butthis is for teach plus Illinois.
and teach plus their whole goalis to take average teachers and
teach them about educationalpolicy.
And so each cohort has to comeup with something they want to
change.
We wanted to tackle teacherrecruitment and retention for

(15:58):
teachers of color, and

started

Brandon (16:00):
dreaming of how can we do this?
And then ultimately we realized,we're trying to recruit
teachers, but

the,

Brandon (16:07):
current landscape isn't really

accessible,

Brandon (16:11):
like it's not approachable, there's so many
things happening.
across the state that, schoolsmight not be a desirable place
for people of color.
And so then we kind of thoughtabout, let's take a more, let's
take a step back.
Let's ask why.
And then we Landed on, we needpolicies in place to protect
students and teachers fromracial harassment.

(16:32):
And during that time, there wereso many viral things happening.
There was the school in RockIsland where football players
hung a

banana underneath

Brandon (16:42):
their Only Black Players locker.
And the parents were going to,like, move forward, and then
overnight they said, We don'twant any more attention and
we're please just leave usalone.
And so, no justice

served

Brandon (16:55):
because it went viral before, The schools could see
what's happening.

It happened in

Brandon (16:59):
Southern Illinois where a student's track coach called
her a monkey out of there's moreto the story, but essentially,
she was running barefoot, andshe made her She compared her to
an African and then a monkey,and so.
once things go online, oncethings hit Snapchat, Instagram,

Instagram, Facebook,

Brandon (17:16):
now we have public opinion, and now the privacy is
leaked.
Both of those students names areall throughout the media, even
though, there's laws protectingtheir privacy.

And so

Brandon (17:24):
we thought, like, that never happens with sexual
harassment.
It's private, it's slow, youinvestigate, both parties have a
chance to say their piece, aresolution is made, and we can
begin to heal.
You can't do that wheneveryone's talking about it in
the comments

resharing.
Yeah, the court of publicopinion Yeah,

Tami (17:45):
there's no mercy really in that social media Court whatever
gets put out first

is

Tami (17:51):
Always

the truth.
Yeah, that's the truth.

Tami (17:55):
It could be crazy and all the way out in left field

And it's so hard

Tami (18:00):
for anybody to recover

Yeah.
From that.
The perpetrator

Brandon (18:05):
and the victim.
It's hard because now you'regonna get defensive and there's
no opportunity to learn fromwhat happened.
You can't learn from the harmyou caused So that's essentially
what the Racism Free Schools Actis going to do.
It's going to mandate thatschools have a policy in place.
It's not mandating training.
It's not mandating curriculum.
It's just schools need to have apolicy in place that they

(18:27):
distribute to staff and parentsand families on what to do if
you think you are experiencingracial harassment in the same
way we display what to do whenyou are experiencing sexual
harassment.
So it's that that's all it is.
The Anti Racism Schools Actfeels very like they're

critical race

Brandon (18:45):
theory.
And so I just didn't want wantto go

through that, but that's what

Tami (18:48):
I'm going to

drop a resource in the show notes

Tami (18:51):
about what is

race theory and what it's not.
I'm going to, I'm going to dropthat

Tami (18:56):
y'all because, and those of you listening probably know,
but for those of you that maybeare listening and don't or want
to know, I'm going to drop thatfor you.

Because I think it's

Tami (19:03):
important

to know what

Tami (19:05):
the difference is and what it isn't.

Absolutely.

Tami (19:08):
yes, It does.
Right.
And

that

Tami (19:10):
term like anti racist, people have this

emotional.
Response to it.

Tami (19:19):
And I get that because it can feel very personal

and

Tami (19:24):
I think that's one of the important pieces of this policy
it gives an opportunity becausethere's emotion

around this

Tami (19:32):
and whenever humans are in their emotion, it's hard to be
logical or listen.
To another person's perspective.
And I think that's one of thereally key pieces of DEI work,
is one, you got to get awarenessaround yourself and understand
your own personal emotionaltriggers so you can,

whoop, take a

Tami (19:53):
step back when you need to in those moments.
Cause you're going to have them.
you're you are, cause you're ahuman being and it's connecting,
you know, it's oftentimespersonal or feels personal, even
if it's maybe not personal,cause policy is not personal,
but it affects peoplepersonally.

Brandon (20:08):
Mm-Hmm.
.Oh, I love that.

Tami (20:10):
Woo.
It's Like we get down deep.
I'm loving

this

Tami (20:12):
deep.
conversation, I I'm

excited.

Tami (20:16):
That there is policy in place because when we come back
to even the beginning and yourjourney we're talking about why
is there not more diversity inschools and we have to think
about historically speaking, howwelcoming have schools felt to
persons of color as they wentthrough school

and if

Tami (20:36):
it's not welcoming, why on earth would

choose

Tami (20:39):
to do that?

Brandon (20:40):
Yep.
Why would you come back?

Tami (20:42):
Why You would it you would it and so I think policies like
this are really important.
I think building awareness isimportant.
I think community andunderstanding the families in
which you partner with as aneducational institution

is

Tami (21:00):
important.

Brandon (21:02):
Yeah.

Tami (21:03):
You know, moving away from

assumption and

Brandon (21:05):
Mm hmm.

Tami (21:06):
getting into this cultural competence.
Just because.
student why.
looks like me, or I think maybecame from the same kind of up
background and upbringingdoesn't always mean they're just
like me.

Brandon (21:22):
Right, right.

Tami (21:24):
how do we value these different ways of knowing and
being and acting in the world?
And

Brandon (21:32):
that's a good point, because I made that mistake when
picking, diverse texts, becauseI thought, you know what, this
book is gonna resonate withthem, and because it's a black
boy, And it didn't.
It did

one year, but it didn't with the
next group because

Brandon (21:46):
Their lived experiences just weren't the same.
I dunno if you've read Long Waydown, but that was the book I

chose.

Tami (21:51):
Yes! I love that

Brandon (21:54):
I love it too, and I thought, like, it would,

I did it,

Brandon (21:57):
we did it with our co-taught kids.
they loved

it, and a

Brandon (22:00):
lot of the kids were, were

recalling

Brandon (22:03):
their memories of their lived experiences and how it
kind of matched

what the

Brandon (22:07):
main character was going through.
And I thought, I'm gonna slidethis over next year to my
instructional group.
And it just didn't, they didn't,they couldn't get past the
rules, they didn't, couldn't getpast the, what do you mean you
should take revenge?
What do you mean no snitching?
For them, their lives, like, itjust wasn't connecting and
that's the first couple pages.

(22:28):
And

so.
Yeah.

Brandon (22:30):
It really just turned into a complicated poetry

for

Brandon (22:33):
them when really I wanted to, like, I

them

Brandon (22:35):
to feel seen.
So

don't

Brandon (22:38):
make assumptions.
Lessons learned.

Tami (22:41):
Yes, you know what they say about

y'all.
Yeah.
say about

Tami (22:45):
a so, Oh my gosh.
So, I want to talk a little bitabout,

DEI.

Tami (22:50):
DEI And that work and the everyday and what you do,
because I also think people arelike gonna be like, Oh my gosh,
he went and did this policy workand he's done this.
Right.
And I,

I

Tami (23:03):
can't do that.
I mean, you can people, I'm justgonna tell you

can.

Tami (23:06):
I'm gonna give you permission.
And there are ways toincorporate principles of DEI
and culturally responsiveteaching in everyday
interactions with students, andyou're probably already doing
some of them.
I want to talk a little bitaround what do do on the
everyday?
What are your tips and tricksfor educators to do that?

I

Brandon (23:31):
think my biggest tip is pick a principle, right?
Accessibility, that's somethingthat we all value.
Pick an area of your life andask yourself, is it accessible
to anyone?
If anyone want to walk into thisdoor, can they enjoy what I'm
enjoying right now?
So for example, with

speech and debate

Brandon (23:48):
for those who don't know what speech and debate is,
it's pretty complicated, so Ican't really explain it in this
hour.
But

essentially, think of it

Brandon (23:55):
as competitive public speaking with a little bit of
acting, a little bit of debate,and a little bit of broadcasting
and poetry slams.
It's all of that combined.
And as a

special ed teacher, I

Brandon (24:07):
always felt like You know, the kids I teach, they
never go out for these clubsand, and activities.
And so I just started talking itup.
I teach English.
So I'm like, why don't I justtell them about it?
Here's what

speech and debate

Brandon (24:19):
is.
Speech and debate, speech anddebate.
And ever since I started doingthat, a lot more kids who I
teach have started coming outfor

team.

Brandon (24:26):
And I, I love it.
So, for example, two years agowe had a kid with autism.
And he wanted to do poetry.
And he wanted to talk about howpeople put him in a box, and how
Autism Speaks doesn't speak forhim.
And I thought, it's beautiful.
And so, and he

it,

Brandon (24:44):
and he performed it every Saturday like everyone
else, and he did well.
And, I think, People are afraidto open up certain activities to
people because they don't wantto hurt them.
Because in speech and debate,you were literally judged every
weekend with eye contact, socialskills, how are you in the
round, are you behaving all thethings before you even get up to

(25:07):
the front to give your speech.
And so I, I just stopped caringabout those things and my
worries for him

at this

Brandon (25:13):
just, Let's, let's do it.
And he

was embraced

Brandon (25:16):
by the community.
And so that's whatever you areinvolved in.
If you're coaching is your sportaccessible to people of
different races, differentethnicities,

ethnicities,

Brandon (25:25):
different abilities, languages, start there.
And then

you get comfortable with

Brandon (25:31):
those things, then move into the classroom.
are the things you're doing,will people talk about it 5,

5, 10

Brandon (25:39):
years down the line?
You know what I mean?
People don't talk about the

when they're

Brandon (25:44):
grown up.
You know, it was never reallyabout the crucible.
It was about this idea ofMcCarthyism and how lies can
ruin people.
So is there another way to drillthat into your students without?
Beating the literary canon todeath.
You could still show them thecrucible, but if the kids don't

(26:06):
match anyone in the crucible,and honestly, they're Gen Z, a
lot of those characters theydon't relate to, and so that's
something that My co teacher andI have been pushing the rest of
the department to let go of thisliterary canon and

maybe just explore

Brandon (26:24):
other books adjacent to, for example, we still do The
Great Gatsby, but we do thegraphic novel because it's
quicker and it's more accessibleand that gives us more time to
discuss the things I need toknow and then we show the movie
and then we read Fences andcompare the American Dream
across those two differentportrayals of the American

(26:45):
Dream.
And then in my class I show thePursuit of Happiness because
that's more relevant to whatthey're going through.
And so we're

still

Brandon (26:52):
doing the canon.

We're just

Brandon (26:53):
pumping some life into it.
And so that's what I recommendpeople do.
If you're afraid of someone,

why aren't

Brandon (27:00):
you teaching this?
You can still do it, but justsupplement it with some other
things, too.

Tami (27:04):
Yeah, I think that's really important Because we
should be asking, like, why?

Are we using this

Tami (27:10):
particular text

because that's what

Tami (27:15):
has traditionally been used, I just need you to reflect
for a moment.
What texts were traditionallyeven allowed to be taught in
school.
So that is how the canon becamethe canon.
And there are some great, peopleout there like Roberts, has got
a book called the novelapproach.
And in it, she does like, shewill take like a Canon text and

(27:35):
show you here are five or sixother books that address this
same literary concept

that are

Tami (27:44):
a little bit more relevant to your students.
So, I mean, that's my challengeto y'all.
You may love of Mice and Men orwhatever.
Book, you know, the horriblegreat expectations or pride and
prejudice.
Okay, that's just me talking.
I did

not

Tami (27:58):
like one of Those are not my favorite from English So now
I just talk about them because Ididn't like them and I was the
reader y'all but the why Why areyou choosing this text what is
the goal for the reading andlearning that's going to come
from that.
And is this the only way?

So I

Tami (28:17):
love this idea of y'all are doing multimodal text,
comparisons, that is critical

thinking, reading

Tami (28:25):
a novel regurgitating what happened in the chapter or
filling out a fill in the blank.
Y'all, this isn't even the pointof

podcast

Tami (28:34):
but I'm going to tell you this.
If you're bored, With yourinstruction, so are your
students,

right?
Like that's boring.
It really

Tami (28:43):
is.
It's

boring,

Tami (28:45):
You can't expect them to be excited about that.

Humans

Tami (28:47):
do better when we can connect with the material and I
get it.
Not everyone's going to connectwith everything, but how are you
trying?

Brandon (28:54):
Yeah,

you're

Brandon (28:55):
You're right.
If you're frustrated with thediscussion, it means they're not
getting it.
I was a great reader too.
And I don't remember.
The American dream meaninganything in the great Gatsby.
I remember reading it and doingwell on the test.
but, and so I started

it.
Me too.

Brandon (29:10):
I'm like, Oh, that's the theme.
That's one of the things.
I, I remember all the figurativelanguage, but I never connected
that this was an American dreamstory until.
I became an English teacher, soit

didn't do today years old,

Tami (29:24):
and I have a doctorate, like, oh, he's rich, and they're

having a party.
And then there's the light,

Tami (29:29):
right longing and love, the light

across the way.

Tami (29:32):
right?

Well,

Brandon (29:33):
and same with The Crucible, I remember how it all
played out, but to me it wasjust a witchcraft spooky story.

Maybe,

Brandon (29:41):
maybe I connected it to McCarthyism, but I still didn't
hit this idea that lies can ruinlives and the themes of
injustice and and so I startedteaching it, and then I felt
There's better ways to teach

injustice.
I didn't get that either.
And I also read the crucible

Tami (29:54):
and.
That was my high school's likeplay at the same time

we were reading it

Tami (29:59):
went to the play My one of my best friends in high school
at the time was in the playThat's what I remember the most
definitely didn't connect it toMcCarthyism

Brandon (30:07):
didn't get me.

yeah see so Until we started showing

Brandon (30:11):
the

Netflix

Brandon (30:12):
documentary the the Khalif Browder documentary

And

Brandon (30:15):
then We read our primary articles And kids were
just like wait, this is fromthis is present?
2016, this actually happened?
We're like, yeah, it actuallyhappened.
How does police product connectto John Proctor?
And now they're like, they wantto know more about John Proctor.
We did that before we read TheCrucible.
So they can see,

injustice

Brandon (30:35):
can still happen in modern day.
And then it kind of leads to abigger conversation of why, why
was he treated like this Soyeah, eat free.
You can

find

Brandon (30:47):
articles.
You don't have to have Netflix.
And that was their essay.
They had to do a modern daycrucible.
give us an essay on someonewho's also, in modern day, been
falsely accused.
of a crime and compare andcontrast it to one character
from the Crucible.

Tami (31:01):
Oh, I like that.
That's

powerful.
Yeah, so those are

Brandon (31:06):
things anyone can, right, like.

Tami (31:08):
ha

Brandon (31:09):
And in math, like math is the same, well, it's kind of
hard.
math always gets the short endof

stick, The stem, the stem places, but
if you look, NCTM and

Brandon (31:18):
NCTM and ICTM, the National Council for Teaching
Mathematics, they're alwayshaving webinars on infusing the
DEI into, Your curriculum.
And there's tons of texts outthere.
So I don't know.
I, feel like as a math teacher,my biggest thing is just
understanding that not everyone

has

Brandon (31:38):
An aptitude for math like I did.
I got there because I hadteachers who, pushed and pushed
and pushed

pushed.
but.
I think

Brandon (31:48):
people who get into teaching math do it because they
were great at math, and so it'shard for them to relate to
struggling learners.
and

I think

Brandon (31:55):
one of the principles of DEI could just be
understanding that you mighthave to make it more accessible.
You might have to pre teach alittle bit of standards that
aren't your grade level, andthat's okay.
You might have to understandthat not everyone can go home
and do 30 problems.
with a parent sitting with themat the table and helping.
And so maybe that

changes how you

Brandon (32:16):
do, structure your class time.
I don't send home any mathproblems.
We do

it in class.

Brandon (32:21):
We start it so I can at least see who gets it, who
doesn't, and then we finish, Ireteach it or I can move on.
And so, that's a big pedagogicalshift for many math teachers
that is rooted

needed in the DEI it is.

Tami (32:36):
Well, and that's important for so many reasons because the
teaching is supposed to happenin the

classroom

Tami (32:42):
and

the

Tami (32:44):
learning is supposed to happen in the classroom where
they have the opportunity to askthe questions of the
professional in the room, right?
And make it an assumption thateveryone has access.
To someone to support them athome, and I'm going to even go
even a little

further,

Tami (33:02):
Or that they should why do we send kids to school for eight
hours and then want them to gowork more

Brandon (33:12):
Mm hmm.

Tami (33:13):
when there are other opportunities for them to learn
and engage?
And maybe that's spending timewith their family.
Maybe they're trying to do ajob.
There's so many other thingsthat can happen outside of that.
Time where I think there's justthis narrative of homework and
you need to have homeworkbecause we've always had
homework And how do we you know,learn if you don't have homework

(33:34):
you learn in the

classroom

Tami (33:37):
I would encourage you to reflect on is that even
important

like the

Tami (33:41):
why behind why you're doing homework, and I think
that's the hard part, too, evenfor English teachers,

Brandon (33:45):
Mm hmm.

Tami (33:46):
I have an unpopular opinion cause I

either studied literacy and reading,

Tami (33:50):
I was a ELA teacher, not everyone is going to love to
read.

Brandon (33:54):
Yeah.

Tami (33:55):
And not everyone is going to be a, reader for fun, people
like reading.
different things and choose tospend their time in different
things.
Now, are we giving them accessto choose to be able to do that?
And the skills to be able to dothat if they

want to

Tami (34:06):
to for reading or math and are we checking our bias?
When it comes to reading andmath, because also, we think
certain students, girls,students of color are not good
at math, not smart at math,

Brandon (34:21):
Mm hmm.
Mm

right?
Or we

Tami (34:23):
over interrupt students that we feel need support versus
letting them,

work on the learning.
Productively struggle through.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yes.

Tami (34:35):
There's so much research about how often students that
are trying to have productivestruggle

that

Tami (34:42):
are perceived to be quote unquote lower level learners are
interrupted then students thatare quote unquote perceived to
be high learners, they're notinterrupted and they're allowed
to like work through thatthinking process.

Yeah,

Brandon (34:53):
Yeah.
Absolutely.

I'm glad that came up in this

Brandon (34:57):
podcast.
That's something else you allshould Google if you're a STEM
teacher.
Productive struggle, Mathtrauma, Math anxiety, the
learning pit.
Those are all things that youcould, that could really

you could,

Brandon (35:07):
and I'm glad

teaching and,

Brandon (35:09):
this podcast.
making your class moreaccessible, especially if you
are frustrated right now.
It's probably because your kidsaren't giving enough time to
productively struggle.
That's the only way to learnsomething.
That's how we learn how todrive,

Tami (35:22):
Yeah.

Brandon Podcast (35:23):
unfortunately, that's

Brandon (35:24):
that's how I learned how to drive.

It is also a productive struggle being
the parent in the seat.
Let me tell you, I've

Tami (35:32):
done it twice now, Woo.
but But yes, most things that ishow trial and error and,

everyone can relate to

Tami (35:44):
their parent or someone telling them, this is really the
best advice and you

probably

Tami (35:49):
do X and you didn't choose X.
You chose

Y.
Yep.
Because

Tami (35:55):
you thought you knew better, but you learned
something from that because, youdidn't.
So you're there to guide, you'rea facilitator, you're, a guide
that helps them move through thelearning that is there for them.

Brandon (36:07):
Yeah, Even that is a shift, mathematics teaching is
very lecture based.
And I think it's okay, y'all, tojust step back and let learning
happen, and then jump in andfacilitate as needed.
That's still good teaching.
You don't have to talk for 40minutes, and that's how we

(36:28):
learn, but like,

that's just not, it's not, it can't
happen.
I know.
I would say,

Tami (36:34):
you know who should be really tired at the end of the
day?
The students.
The students should be tired atthe end of the day because
they've been engaging in theproductive struggle, in the
learning, right?
They should be more tired thanyou.

I

Brandon (36:44):
love that.

Yeah,

Brandon (36:45):
absolutely.

Tami (36:46):
Wow.
We've talked about a lot ofreally

Brandon (36:49):
Yeah.

amazing things and

Tami (36:52):
So many, and I know we've dropped some resources and
places to go look at.
I'll grab all of those y'all forthe show notes.
So you can go back and

find them,

Tami (37:01):
Cause I want you to go use them cause these are good tools,
tips, and tricks.
I Want to think about, Brandon,what's your next step and one
tip takeaway that you want toshare with the listeners?
Cheers.
Cheers.

Sure.

Brandon (37:14):
So I think my next step is, my blackness is it's on me,
right?
You can see like, Oh, he'sblack.
And so it was easy to lean intothat work.
I think I want to embrace myqueerness, right.
As a gay male And, and I'm in aposition of influence.
And so how can I help shiftminds to understand those

(37:35):
microaggressions?
Because I mean, I still hearkids say that's gay or they
throw out the F slur like it'scandy, like it's a parade.
Everyone gets

go

Brandon (37:47):
in the hall.
Everyone's called that andespecially our male to male and
that's, and they're friends.
They just, that is how they talkto each other.
They don't think it's bad.
And so I really want to

Encourage

Brandon (37:59):
myself to do the work, especially for our trans
brothers

sisters,

Brandon (38:03):
and, you know, like pronouns, we all At this point
in education, we all havepronouns in our signature.
but what does it really mean?
If someone

were to ask me,

Brandon (38:12):
why do you have pronouns in your, in your
signature?
I probably couldn't give them aneloquent answer.
And so I need to do more, Soulsearching, I suppose more
research.
And that's okay.
Don't be afraid.
That's the biggest tip.
Don't be afraid to admit I don'tknow, let me go think about
that.
I need to figure out.
Why I don't know about that lensof D.

(38:32):
E.
I.
And I think that's okay.
Teachers were learners.
And the reason that we're greatat our job is because we're
great at, taking what we knowand telling it to other people.
And I think with D.
E.
I.
You don't have to have a D.
I.
Lesson.
But all the examples we sharedin this podcast are ways you can
infuse it into your teaching andinto your life.

(38:53):
And so, even if you don't thinkyou have diversity in your life,
you do, everyone has somethingunique about themselves.
You're from

from a small

Brandon (39:04):
town, and now you're teaching at a city.
People can't relate to thatsmall town mentality, so teach
them about that, because whenthey graduate, they might move
to a

a small

Brandon (39:13):
town.
Your gender, your genderidentity, we're all different.
So, I, don't be afraid to Sharesome of that because you're
going to reach someone whoprobably hasn't been seen yet.

Tami (39:24):
Oh, I love that.
Yes,

I love that.

Tami (39:27):
By sharing yourself, you provide space for others to also
be seen.

Yeah.
Awesome.

Tami (39:33):
Awesome.

And that's okay.
You're not,

Brandon (39:36):
not against the law.

It is not.
It is

Tami (39:41):
not.
None of this is against the law.
None

Brandon (39:43):
None of it's

Tami (39:44):
of it is.
Well, Brandon, I want to thankyou so much for joining me today
and having this greatconversation.
Listeners I'm going to dropthose references in the show
notes so you can access them.
Please go

check out Brandon's

Tami (39:59):
Instagram page.
Cause he's also just told you

that it

Tami (40:02):
is public, so you can check it out.
And if you have any questions orwant to get started with some
DEI work, please reach out to meand schedule

time.

Tami (40:11):
And remember, share this podcast with your educator
friends and use your voice.

Thanks, Brandon.

Brandon (40:16):
Thank you.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Breakfast Club

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Equity in Education: Transforming Classrooms through DEI Practices

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Breakfast Club

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

Equity in Education: Transforming Classrooms through DEI Practices

On Purpose with Jay Shetty