September 30, 2025 • 50 mins
What if “joy in schools” isn’t possible without belonging? Dr. Tami Dean and Dr. Max Weinberg unpack how humane, trauma-informed practice—and real partnership with families, paraprofessionals, and communities—creates conditions where every student is seen, safe, and able to learn.
What You’ll Learn
- Why belonging is the prerequisite for joy—not the other way around.
- How testing culture and scripted curricula erode critical thinking and equity.
- Practical ways to center in loco parentis and dignity in daily instruction.
- The overlooked power of paraprofessionals and how to align the whole team.
- Navigating 504/IEP rights with curiosity instead of compliance theater.
- Equity lenses on charters, vouchers, school funding, and neighborhood schools.
- How educator preparation and No Child Left Behind-era schooling still shape today’s classrooms.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of The Equity
Hour with me, your host, Dr.
Tami, and I am so excited.
Today we have Dr.
Max Weinberg in the house.
Hi Max,
Max Weinberg (00:12):
Hi, good to see you.
Dr (00:14):
Thanks for joining us today, Max.
Uh, tell y'all a little bitabout Max.
He is the founder of BelongingLLC and has spent more than 25
years in the educationprofession serving as a teacher
trained, special educator, coachand administrator.
Max's passion for belongingarises from his experiences as a
student, parent and professionaladvocating for marginalized
(00:35):
children, ensuring that allchildren are seen and understood
in Schools is personal andprofessional.
Max brings his background as aloss affected youth as a
transracial adoptive parent, andas a trauma informed educator
and advocate to each situationhe encounters.
Thank you so much for joining uson the podcast today.
(00:55):
Thanks
Max Weinberg (00:55):
for having me.
This is very cool.
Dr (00:58):
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
Okay, Max.
So.
As my listeners know, and as youprobably know, like I start each
episode about talking about eachof my guests, about their equity
journey, and I do that because.
This is a journey.
To me, it is a marathon, like itis a consistent process of
learning or unlearning.
(01:19):
And so I feel like in the worldthere's this idea that you can
do one professional developmentor you do this one thing, or
been doing this X amount of.
You know, and now all of asudden you're a quote unquote
expert.
And in my opinion, like you'renever really an expert because
there's always something
Max Weinberg (01:39):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (01:39):
So you may be very knowledgeable, you may be very
experienced, but it may be inonly certain aspects of
Max Weinberg (01:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (01:47):
Equity and belonging and inclusion, because there are so
much intersectionality andnuance within it.
So I would love, can you share alittle bit, and I always say
like, when I have guest who'sbeen in this work, as long as I
have like the Cliff notesversion,
Max Weinberg (02:03):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (02:04):
bit about your journey into this work.
Max Weinberg (02:07):
Thank you for, um, well thanks for having me.
This is very, very cool.
I've enjoyed listening to yourpodcast and yes, I am on an
equity journey and, in thescheme of things.
Because I'm a believer in howfoundational childhood is.
I, even though I feel like, andI wanna say, and I take pride in
(02:28):
saying that I got into educationfor, to work on equity or to,
make the world a better place.
Especially when it came tohistorically marginalized
people.
I'm really a beginner.
I'm, I, I'm still there is stillso, so, so, so, so much to learn
and I think.
That shows up in the layers likelocally.
(02:50):
And then if we just use our, theway we're set up, I live in a
suburb, so big city, state,federally, and then just like
historically, like 400 years ormore of this mess being created
more, right?
More than 400.
But, but, and, and trying tounderstand.
(03:11):
And contextualize every singleday.
Things were getting worse for somany and better, for so few, um,
multiplied by, like I said,every day.
And there's so much to learn,all to say.
So, I was raised in the suburbsof Chicago, white nuclear
family, 1980s.
(03:33):
A little queer kid but couldmask pretty well.
Um, when it came to safety, likelearn to keep my mouth shut
about things, was like prettyfemme but could hide it.
Or could hide behind my bigsister or, this is a harder
thing to talk about'cause Ihaven't really unpacked it.
But being Jewish in a prettynon-Jewish community also gave
(03:57):
me like.
It both, it both othered me, butalso gave me a community to feel
safe to hide in.
Dr (04:05):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (04:06):
that was white, that was all steeped in white
supremacy too.
So, that's all been part of myjourney of understanding how I
had privilege there by being ina tight knit white supremacist
Jewish culture, but also beingable to wave a flag of
minoration.
I lost my sister.
I already mentioned my sister.
Really, really, really close.
(04:26):
Lost my sister and that's wheremy kind of profound loss came.
She was a, or the primaryattachment figure in my life,
and she kind of like had pavedthe way, just the person she was
like.
Punk rock.
Um, a kid living with cancerproudly and all of the markers
of having childhood cancerreally proudly, um, in her own
(04:49):
like teenage way fighting thesystem of hospitalization for
kids and like naming equityissues, like just because it
was, she was awesome and thatwas just what she saw.
She was treated on the southside of Chicago.
So at University of Chicagowhere like racial.
Disparities were on fulldisplay.
Dr (05:05):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (05:05):
Um, and it's like those were my, those were in me.
And then, went to school andwent to a school on the east
coast that I struggled to namecurrently, but I really had a
great education.
And their motto was, truth, evenon unto its innermost parts.
And I wanted to be a journalistand that really meant a lot to
me, truth even un, to itsinnermost parts.
(05:27):
Then I got to a school that hadundergrad that had crazy racial
disparities, on display and wassteeped in Zionism.
And, I kind of wondered whatthat meant.
Truth even un, to its innermostparts.
Wanted to be a writer.
Wanted to be a journalist.
Um.
A bunch of us moved to New YorkCity together and working in the
(05:50):
publishing industry was not sofun.
And lots and lots and lots ofinteresting sort of dynamics
showing up there aboutsocioeconomics and racial
dynamics.
Who had a voice at the table?
Who was running the show?
Um, this was, you know, 1999 andlanded yes, in Teach for
America, which is a wholeconversation for another time.
(06:12):
I am very thankful for theopportunities that many people
in that organization gave me.
And they supported me going to areally progressive child
centered Master's program atBank Street School of Education.
And I was teaching in the SouthBronx and eventually in Harlem,
and I just say like, my firstday on the job in the South
(06:33):
Bronx.
I was given a class that wascalled the lowest, a tiered
class, four out of fourth out offour.
And I stood in front of them thefirst day sort of using my
nostalgia of what it meant to bea teacher.
And I think I tried to lecturethem for eight hours, maybe the
first week.
And they showed me that wasnever gonna happen.
(06:55):
And they were sixth graders.
They were adorable and beautifuland hilarious and just like I
just.
They were magnetic.
Like I was just like, you areall amazing and each one of you
has the most amazing perspectiveon the world.
And so that was just like, thatwas it.
I was hooked.
That was the blast.
A blast.
My mom is a career educator too,so like I grew up in a house
(07:17):
where we not just valuededucation from like a middle
class white perspective, butalso like.
What it meant to have greatteach like teachers who really
got you and advocated for youand what effective principals
do.
Like that was very much just thetopic of conversation at the
dinner table.
Dr (07:34):
Yeah.
Well, you know, I always find itso interesting that they always
give the students with thehighest need to the least
experienced
Max Weinberg (07:43):
That was me.
Dr (07:44):
like.
Max Weinberg (07:45):
And you know the one,
Dr (07:46):
in this story too.
Max Weinberg (07:48):
right?
That was me and, um.
The school.
Just to even go deeper withthat, the school was known as
like a failing school.
It was in the South Bronx, theasthma capital of the world in
Hunts Point.
And when I interviewed for thejob, it was like one of these
sit for 15 minutes and theprincipal says, we have a
position.
Do you want it?
We really need someone.
(08:08):
And I was like, I, yes, Iabsolutely do.
Like, you know, I, I, I don'tknow what I'm doing, but I wanna
save the world.
It was, was a failing school ona street named, um, fail Street
in the South Bronx.
Oh.
And when he interviewed me, hesaid, you might know our
neighborhood from the HBO.
Rea it was reality show, but Idon't know if we had that name
(08:29):
for it at the time.
Probably just beginning withreality shows, docuseries, um,
hookers at the point, you mightknow us from the show called
Hookers at the Point, and I waslike, I do know that show.
And it was, you know, thecommunity was just so, so, so
traumatized.
It's had a tiny bit of rerevitalization.
Dr (08:47):
Uh.
Max Weinberg (08:48):
Um, and there's, there always have been amazing
community activists there.
Um.
But for a principal to tell methat that's how the school is
known, just kind of context, puteverything into perspective of
like, yeah, this is, this iskind of, um, a really strange
way to set up, to set up yourschool and your perception of
what the kids bring to theschool too.
(09:08):
So
Dr (09:09):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (09:10):
my
Dr (09:10):
about the community, right?
And like that the, thesestudents come to you.
From, right, like whatpreconceived biases
Max Weinberg (09:21):
right.
Dr (09:22):
having, if that is how you describe your school
environment.
Max Weinberg (09:27):
Yeah.
And, and you know, I, again,there you will hear throughout
this conversation, I'm veryaware of it and we can talk
about it, but you'll hear me saythings like this, like, how
simple would it have been tohave that street change, that
street name changed?
Dr (09:42):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (09:42):
And so when I say, I know, when I say, how simple
would that have been, I knowthat's my, that's all my
privilege, right?
Like, um, you just go, it's,it's, it's.
Um, the, the Karen in me, right?
Like, you just go, you fight forit, you ask for it, you demand
it, and that street name getschanged in honor of the kids.
And that's like a duality that Ilive with.
And I, I tussle with it even atmy dining room table with my
(10:04):
kids of like, I know I have a, alot of privilege to walk in
there and say stuff, um, and itmay or may not get done, get
done, but I feel that energy andsimultaneously I want everyone.
To be able to do that.
Like I want those kids andparents to be able to say,
you're educating my child at a,on a street called Fail Street.
(10:28):
We must change that now.
Like it should be ExcellenceStreet.
And it was F-A-I-L-E to be fair,it was named after someone.
Um, but you know, like, like howsimple would it have been to
stop talking smack about thekids or the community and to
advocate for real change for alocal, with a local
representative or governingbody?
Dr (10:46):
Yeah, but you know, I, I think you bring up a really good
point when we talk about.
Different access to things orprivilege that we may or may,
not have.
Like even though I'm from amarginalized community, like my
education and experiences giveme privileges, right?
To know.
(11:07):
to say or access.
Like I, I can tell you a story,like I was advocating for
something that was happening ina school district I was working
in with the superintendent andhe's like, well, the other
parents don't know.
They don't know you.
I said, I know they don't knowwhat I know and that is why I am
here
Max Weinberg (11:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr (11:23):
okay.
Max Weinberg (11:23):
Yeah.
Dr (11:25):
And I say all that to say the important part is like, what
do you do with that privilege?
Like, you know, you haveprivilege to go to the table.
Max Weinberg (11:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (11:33):
who are we inviting to come with us?
Max Weinberg (11:35):
For sure.
Dr (11:36):
To the table, like who are we opening the door for with the
areas in which we know we haveprivilege.
For those that don't have that
Max Weinberg (11:45):
Yeah.
Dr (11:45):
have knowledge that they may not yet have, that we can share
and collaborate with.
Max Weinberg (11:51):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting thing, and
I know we'll talk about it, butlike education as a protective
fact.
Like I think we talk abouteducation as being a protective
factor for individuals and we'renot great at talking about it.
Well, it's actually a protectivefactor for communities, and
communities that thrive are.
Get the education they deserveand they're given per, they're
(12:13):
given permission or they findways to allow themselves to
connect and activate with oneanother.
And, communities of valueeducation are able to receive
that activism too and havehealthy co discourse about it.
Um, so the protective factor isnot just about the individual,
but like entire societies areable to thrive when this
happens.
Dr (12:35):
Yeah.
Well this just makes me thinkright now like education as a
whole to me.
I mean, it's been under attackfor a minute, but, um, I feel
like public education is evenmore so under attack.
So we're starting to remove theidea of community, like, with
(12:55):
the, the growth of charterschools, with the conversation
around vouchers.
Max Weinberg (13:00):
Yeah.
Dr (13:01):
away, I mean, well even the fact that public schools are
funded based on property taxes,right?
Max Weinberg (13:08):
Right, right,
Dr (13:09):
there's just so many layers to the
Max Weinberg (13:13):
right.
Dr (13:13):
of what makes public education inequitable in this
country, despite how peoplewanna think it is equitable.
Max Weinberg (13:25):
Yeah, I think we're not it, it's, this is also
one more like we're just gettinginto, and it, and it is specific
to my journey, a fast trackprogram, alternative
certification program and in,and it happened to be in New
York City.
So seeing, seeing those peoplewho are part of just like
forming teacher core.
(13:46):
Um, rise through the ranks andend up where they are now.
It really makes sense.
Like, like I'm not, I'm reallyupset, but not that surprised
at, where we are because, youknow, um, my, I forget what she
was called.
My program director was someonewho.
Um, told me to keep my mouthshut and, um, you know, get back
(14:09):
in the classroom.
And she was so disappointed inme for raising issues of safety
and child wellbeing At thisfirst school I was at on Faile
Street,
Dr (14:16):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (14:17):
um, went on to run one of the biggest districts in
New York City that oversaweducation at, uh, Rikers Island,
which was like the scariestthought for me, like here was
someone who was telling teachersto be quiet about.
Physical abuse or mentaldistress at the very least at
(14:37):
school.
And now she's running this andthen went on to have an e even
bigger position in New York.
And now I'm sure is like inregular conversation with really
heavy hitters.
And you see this like all overthe place and it's, you know, we
know that every president hashad their hand in sort of, every
president in our lifetime hashad their hand in, um.
(15:00):
The destruction of neighborhoodpublic schools.
It's really, really interestingand I'm a huge fan of the
Obamas, but we're right here inChicago.
The Obama Center is going up andthere's been a school in Hyde
Park in the neighborhood theylived in, in the community they
lived in.
That, has is a beautiful,beautiful, beautiful building.
But it's been really, there's,it's seen huge.
(15:21):
Divestment over the past fewdecades.
Now, the Obama Center is goingup and it's getting tons of
attention, and as, as it alwaysshould have.
Um, it's also in the shadows ofthe University of Chicago and
the University of Chicago LabSchool, which has put in like
millions and millions ofdollars.
And so it's interesting thisconversation of like, you know,
(15:43):
we are able to find theresources.
When we know there is sort of amutual benefit, like this
school's gonna get a lot ofresources, it's gonna be
beautiful.
Hopefully it becomes a school ofchoice.
Everyone in the community wantsto go there.
Um, but why does it take, a newinternationally known museum or
center to beef up a school forchildren?
(16:06):
Like, like our, our, it feels sobackwards.
Like, shouldn't the children begetting the best first?
And then we build up from there.
Dr (16:14):
Uh, I mean, yes, I'm gonna, uh, I'm gonna agree with you.
I mean, I even, just like wewere like, oh, it's
characterized as a failingschool.
Like even how that language has.
Come about in my lifetime as aneducator, like that wasn't a
thing when I
Max Weinberg (16:33):
Hmm.
Dr (16:34):
edu, teaching and, and working in education and now
that is all that people talkabout.
And it is sad to me be for somany reasons, most of which it
is this testing era that isn'tabout anything but money.
Max Weinberg (16:51):
Mm.
Dr (16:52):
It really isn't about what's best for kids.
It really isn't about learningand excelling and improving our
academics.
And I know that because when yougo and you see what educators
and educational leaders arebeing asked to do, right, we're
over assessing.
Like you, you can't assess thatmuch and then
Max Weinberg (17:13):
Right.
Dr (17:13):
any growth, right?
Or it's.
Removing critical thinking,right?
Because
Max Weinberg (17:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (17:18):
to be easily scored, have to be multiple choice we've
Max Weinberg (17:21):
Right,
Dr (17:22):
like the writing assessment we've taken away and it just, I
don't even know where I'm goingwith this except it just makes
me sad.
It makes
Max Weinberg (17:30):
right.
Dr (17:31):
for the state of education that we think we need to label
schools as failing.
Max Weinberg (17:37):
Yeah.
And, and you know that it, that,um, when I describe my students,
like I.
Yeah, those students, my firstyear, we did the most fun stuff
in the world.
Like we got involved in aneighborhood arts arts
organization.
We helped with greening theBronx River.
I really like, used everything Ihad learned at summer camp, um,
(17:58):
like as a counselor going tocamp because I, it was, it was
clear that a very traditionalapproach to teaching and
learning, even though I didn'tknow how to teach, really, it
was clear like that wasn't gonnawork.
Dr (18:09):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (18:09):
these guys.
This was why they were for thesekids.
This is why they were in placewhere they were.
We wrote to Sandra Cisneros.
She came and visited our, shecame to visit the school.
Give them the resources and thetools and they were going to
change the world, right?
Like, like these are the mindsthat we say we want and we need,
um, you know, bill Gates'sdaughter, I just, I keep seeing
(18:30):
this over and over and over.
It must be something about myalgorithm.
Bill Gates's daughter justcreated a shopping app.
Um, you, it like helps you shop.
And I was like, so all of thesethinkers who sent their kids to
Montessori schools and said theynever gave them devices, who got
the best of the best of the bestare now creating shopping apps.
Like any one of my children inHunts Point in the Bronx who
(18:55):
understood how to see the worldin the most complex ways could.
You know what, out of thatshopping app and change the
world in all of their beautifuldiversity, and I haven't even
really talked explicitly aboutall of the diversity was there
because I think theirexperiences, the story that was
told about them, um, would evenbe so essentialized.
(19:18):
Right?
And even like, you know, this isthe community that Jonathan
Kozel would write about.
I think it was Daisy and like I,I love him and I love his heart.
But those, the way those booksare used, even in teacher
education programs, right?
It's like, it's like, it's avery essentializing way of
looking at schools.
And, I haven't, when I get to mystory, eventually being a
principal of a neighborhoodschool in Evanston, Illinois,
(19:40):
you know, a zip code that issupposed to shoot you, to
Stanford, um, it was like inwork and leading a very
segregated school, sort of, um,25% black.
Most of the students.
Low socioeconomic, I don't lovethat term.
I'm not using the right term,but 75% white and wealthier.
(20:00):
I knew which kids could thinkoutside of the box and I knew
which kids, were going to changethe world.
And I knew which kids, and, andit, it's not, it's not, you
know, only, one group or theother, but I knew which kids
were just sort of like, Treadingwater, water to keep up with the
exact path that their parentscreated for them, or wanted for
them, or thought they bought forthem by buying into the zip
(20:21):
code.
It's like, that's, that's notthe type of change we say we
want.
And I, and I, and I, when I saywe want, I say, you hear that
from any, any, um, politician,we need to build 21st century
skills and we need to build it.
It's like, do we or are we justlooking to fund billionaires
trust funds?
Dr (20:42):
Well, yeah.
Or do we or are we willing, arewe willing to do what it takes
to build that?
Like I had so much hope we wouldout of COVID and like realize
like
Max Weinberg (20:52):
Right.
Dr (20:53):
were doing was so broken.
I firmly believe children arecreative.
They think outside the box.
They notice things we don'tnotice and how we've shifted
education over the last twodecades.
Really, it, it.
Sucks that life out of them,
Max Weinberg (21:12):
right,
Dr (21:12):
we want them to all be the same, and we are seeing the
results of now, and then we'relike, oh, why are they like
this?
What do you mean they can'tthink for themselves?
Because we've educated them notto, we've educated them to fit
inside this box or only dothese, these things.
Max Weinberg (21:35):
right.
Dr (21:35):
society needs all kinds of diversity of thought, of ideas,
of ways of being taking awaykids access to art and
humanities and you know, andthen you wonder why people don't
understand what's happening withour government right now.
Because we weren't teachingsocial studies, you know, like
Max Weinberg (21:55):
That's right though.
Dr (21:56):
an impact.
Max Weinberg (21:58):
I think about that all the time because some of my
work is in teacher coaching andteacher development, and you and
I know you, that's yourbackground.
Um, you know the teacher, the 21and 22, well, 25-year-old,
26-year-old teachers are nochild left behind students, so
right.
Not only did they not gettrained on effective science and
social studies like applied mathand science teaching and
(22:20):
learning, they themselves didnot go to schools where they got
that.
And so many of them had theirarts programs cut even.
And I, and I say this even insuburban schools, like I spent
time, I said a, a, a schoolleader in Evanston.
And um, to get teachers to teachscience and social studies daily
was an uphill battle.
(22:42):
Um, and even every permission inthe world, like take them out to
the forest preserve.
I'd rather you do that thanteach, you know, what Houghton
Mifflin says needs to be taughtand challenging.
And you know, I say this withlove for teachers, but also like
you, it is hard to teach in away you've never experienced
(23:02):
yourself unless you've had alot, a lot, a lot of
professional development andlike exposure.
Dr (23:08):
Yeah.
Well, and as a former liketeacher educator, I definitely
saw that in my time there.
Like I could see when theystarted to come.
Max Weinberg (23:19):
Uh.
Dr (23:19):
To the college classroom.
And what we were saying is, youknow, best practice.
And then what happens when theygo then and have to go into a
school district where it's notthe same,
Max Weinberg (23:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (23:33):
There's not an alignment because we're now moving toward
script curriculum, you know,
Max Weinberg (23:37):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (23:37):
I know people are on attack, two teacher ed programs saying,
right, they're not doing X, Y,or C, which.
I firmly disagree with,'cause alot of those people saying that
aren't actually doing realresearch, but that's a whole
nother, whole notherconversation.
Right.
But I think what it does is wehave the blind leaving the blind
(24:02):
a little bit.
Like, so even if we open it up,have we given them the tools to
be able to.
Access that, you know, um, we'veseen an increase in,
non-traditional teachers coming.
Some of that is great andwonderful depending on how they
were supported in coming to theclassroom.
(24:23):
Some of them, they're not sosupported, right.
Depending on your state and yourregulations, and they're just
kind of like thrown in there
Max Weinberg (24:30):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (24:30):
this idea, and this is my, this is just my personal
thought, right?
thinks they can be an educator.
Going back to kind of what yousaid, like I, I've, I've been
taught like, because I'veexperienced teachers, I now know
how to teach,
Max Weinberg (24:45):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (24:45):
those aren't necessarily, they're not the same
Max Weinberg (24:49):
Right.
Dr (24:50):
is a, it is a profession as a highly specialized profession
Max Weinberg (24:53):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (24:54):
historically doesn't get the, respect because it, let's
be honest, right, is beentraditionally a female
profession and role.
I mean, you go back to originalteachers, you couldn't be
married,
Max Weinberg (25:07):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (25:08):
be seen
Max Weinberg (25:09):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr (25:10):
after a certain time because, oh, schedule, right?
Like, so all of that influenceshow pe like, and I think when
we, when you talk about like thehistory, right?
All of this influences where weare.
In society today, and I thinkthat's really important for
people to know, because
Max Weinberg (25:29):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (25:30):
history, you can't understand where we are today
Max Weinberg (25:31):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (25:32):
history might be actually
Max Weinberg (25:35):
Yeah.
Dr (25:35):
it.
Max Weinberg (25:37):
I think the worry is, um, like even when you're
talking about like the pioneerschool days, like we, it, it,
it, even that structure, likewho was plucked and, and I'm
saying this while alsorecognizing patriarchy and, you
know, anti womanist.
Views, but like we also,there's, there was a humanity
(25:57):
piece lost, right?
Like, so I'm, I'm working on abook right now on school
belonging.
And so much of what I am pushingis best practice and best
lowercase b best, but like,really what I mean is humane
practice.
Yes.
It's trauma informed, yes, it'ssocial emotional, responsive.
Yes.
I, I hope I do justice withcultural competence, but it is
(26:19):
like sit down and listen.
Talk, explain how you start wentfrom A to B2C to D, and don't
assume that someone else's brainis going to do it the same way.
Dr (26:32):
Mm.
Max Weinberg (26:32):
Like, like sort of like what are our foundational,
what do we foundationallybelieve should be happening when
we are in a, you know, I knowthis is a loaded word, but a
transactional education moment.
But like if I am hired to do ajob, then standing up and
pushing iReady math is actuallynot the job I was hired to do,
(26:54):
where even if I look, even ifeven giving school districts all
the benefits without, when Ilook at my job description, it's
not all written about iReady.
It's written about in behind,behind it.
Ethically in local parentis,like I'm there for the child
when their parent cannot be.
I commit to keeping the childsafe.
I, yes, I am absolutelycommitted to lesson planning or
(27:15):
whatever language is used forthat.
And underneath that is like, I'mthere to dignify the children's
experience and this can easily,or the child's brain, the
child's experience, the child'spotential, all of those things.
I get into some sticky water,and I did as a principal too,
when it comes to teacher socialemotional wellbeing.
(27:36):
Like what promise for teachers?
That's a much, much, much morenuanced conversation.
I should, yeah, I think nuancedis a fair way to say it.
Conversation for me, from myperspective and when I think
about student belonging.
Um, but, but that piece of like,how did we get to a place where
we stop listening and affirmingwhoever that child is in what,
(27:58):
whatever shape they show up.
I do a little bit of workadvocating for parents, with
students with disabilities, andthe amount of, right now, the
place we're in.
When you go to the table for anIEP meeting or special
education?
It is, it just, it just feels sotense and my, you know, take on
it is so anti disability, it'sso ableist, but like fervently
(28:22):
anti disability.
I, I may have been guilty ofthis 10 or 15 years ago, like.
I'm assuming that parents arecoming to rig the system to lie
about their children.
Um, and that's the feeling youget sometimes.
And it's like, wait a minute,let's slow down here.
And remember again, we'retalking about children.
Dr (28:44):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (28:44):
And, and we do have an ethical development to,
to an ethical, you know,commitment to, to support them.
And how do, did we get to aplace that says whatever Pearson
is pushing out and selling onthe stock market is more
important to deliver than achild's experience like, like
(29:05):
that is so, you know, I thoughtwe did away with that when.
You know, well, I don't know.
I, I, I, I can't say anythingnow'cause politically clearly we
have not done away with that.
I was, I was listening to, therewas a big Google decision this
morning and I was listening toNPR say, Google has been, um,
Google has been very worriedabout how it was going to be
(29:29):
treated by the courts today.
And I wanted you wanna pause andbe like, dear NPRI love you.
Google was not worried.
Google does not have feelings.
The billionaire, millions whohave invested in Google may have
been worried, but we're gonna beokay.
And you know, who's reallyworried is like, you know, I, we
(29:49):
could go on and on about, atthis very moment, a newcomer to
Chicago, LA, or DC is very, veryworried.
Like, like, let's really talkabout where we should be putting
our attention.
Dr (30:02):
Yeah, I mean, that is such a good point, right?
Like the, there's been aapplying human.
Characteristics
Max Weinberg (30:12):
you.
Yes.
Dr (30:13):
companies, that is they don't have feelings, they don't
like any of those things.
Um, do wanna talk about, youtalked a little bit about your
experience and a little bitabout the work you do.
So you, founded BelongingEducation,
Max Weinberg (30:28):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (30:29):
so please share with us like how you decided to.
Build a company and, and what isit you do out here supporting,
um, belonging in, in schooldistricts?
Max Weinberg (30:43):
Yeah, so belong.
So, you know, I'm, sort of an,an infant business still.
Um, belonging, grew out of mydissertation I researched.
Effective practices, to supportadopted and looked after kids.
So I'm a transracial adoptiveparent and have supported, um, a
lot of kids who are in all typesof care situations as a teacher
(31:07):
and as a principal.
Adopted and looked after kids.
Kids in foster care, kids inkinship.
I use it, I use, looked afterit.
It was a term used in the uk,um, or it still is for kids who
really were in foster situationsor kinship care, but I use it
because it's such a niceumbrella term for anyone who's
been in temporary care, even ifit's informal care.
(31:30):
Hey, I need my friend to help,help out with my kids'cause I'm
going through it.
So I say looked after because alot of the experiences, um,
where it shows up sort ofemotionally and lived
experiences with being movedaround with for kids and having,
um, challenges to attachmentoften are the same whether
you're adopted or looked after.
(31:50):
Even, even for kids who areadopted a birth.
The, the, the.
Challenges that they workthrough are really, really
similar.
So my dissertation was onstrengthening school belonging
for adopted and looked afterkids, and I didn't wanna let it
go.
I'm now a school leadershipcoach and a lot of my work, um,
(32:12):
you walk around schools andgranted I was a little bit of a
hammer looking for a nail.
Like you walk around schools,you listen, you start to see
like, wait a minute.
I hear you talking about thisone child who their dad is not
changing, they're not fittingin.
Um, and, and this is probablyevery single school.
(32:33):
Um, and the more I startedhearing that, I was like, well,
I want to, I gotta do somethingwith this research because I
believe in it.
I was fascinated by what cameout of it.
Um, and so I started belonging.
There are certain parts of thisbelonging framework that grew
outta my research that areapplicable to all kids or to
(32:55):
kind of Gloria Latson billings.
Like that's just good teaching.
Dr (32:58):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (32:58):
Um, and then there's some that is really
about, um, justice and equityand centering populations who
have historically beenmarginalized.
Dr (33:08):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (33:09):
and right now the schools that I work with
directly.
Um, that's not true.
One school I work with directly,it is about voices who have
historically been marginalized.
Dr (33:18):
Okay.
Max Weinberg (33:19):
and one school it is much more holistic.
Like that's just good teaching.
But, um, with the other school,we are real with the, that's
just good teaching.
We are really focusing onbeefing up paraprofessional,
Dr (33:31):
Oh, mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (33:31):
knowledge, ability, skill, um, because
which feels like good,meaningful, like justice
oriented work.
Because the principals, like Igive them so much credit,
realized that they, reallycould, had more bandwidth to
spare as far as investing withtheir para professionals and
knew that, they were worthinvesting in.
(33:51):
And that, kids deserved to haveall of their teachers totally
aligned no matter sort of statusor where they were coming from.
Dr (34:00):
I, think that is.
I think paraprofessionals are anoften overlooked group in the
educational system, but
Max Weinberg (34:07):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:09):
um,
Max Weinberg (34:10):
Angels, I mean, and, and, and, and I think, I
think parents we're in a littlebit of like, you know, parents
are getting all information fromall sorts of parent places about
schools and education, but Ithink parents understand better
than school leaders how vitalparaprofessionals are.
Like they really champion and,and I think we've, we've missed
(34:31):
that.
We have misunderstood that too.
Like why is this parent soclose?
Or why does this parent want totalk so desperately to this
paraprofessional?
And I think school leaders, Imight have been, I'd have to
think back, but I was probablyguilty of this sometimes like.
Like, no, we've gotta get themto talk to the teacher and there
is a hierarchy here and thatjust hurts the kid.
(34:51):
And it's really undignifying forthe, you know, skilled
paraprofessionals.
Like, you know, I recently putup something on my social media,
like, there are no unskilledworkers.
Like, let's stop that phrase.
Um, we might be really bad attraining people.
That might be our fault, butlike paraprofessionals come in
with like a whole lot ofknowledge and a passion for
(35:12):
supporting and educating kids.
Dr (35:14):
Yeah.
Well yeah to me the reason theparent wants to talk to the
paraprofessional is because theparaprofessional knows their
child I always say I if likesomething make you comfortable,
you have to look back andreflect on yourself, why is that
making you uncomfortable?
Like,
Max Weinberg (35:33):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (35:34):
that this parent is going this paraprofessional?
And it's probably because theyknow something that you should
probably know and whether or notyou're ready to admit that to
yourself.
But it it, it's true.
And or how do you foster acollaborative partnership with
your paraprofessional to gainsome of the knowledge that they
have about your students?
Because it is very real.
Max Weinberg (35:55):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (35:56):
teachers have 30 students that, you know, they have a
large number of students.
So if you have this additionallayer of support
Max Weinberg (36:02):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (36:03):
space to help you get to know students better
Max Weinberg (36:06):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (36:07):
and maybe a little bit differently of the access they
have,
Max Weinberg (36:11):
Right.
Dr (36:12):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (36:12):
Yeah.
Dr (36:13):
Let's use that.
Right.
Going back to what you saidabout what is best for kids.
Max Weinberg (36:19):
We also, we also, it's been interesting to watch.
Um, I was mostly an elementaryperson, but having high
schoolers of my own and workingwith some high schoolers, it's
really interesting to, to seehow we do or don't live out our
commitment to career andtechnical education.
Because that, that's also astriking thing of like.
(36:41):
How, you know, I know this ismostly an adult podcast, so I
think I can say like how shitupon some members of a school
community are, while we're alsosaying we so support career and
technical education, so everyoneknows who I'm talking about,
right?
We're talking about the lunchworkers, the recess workers, the
clerk, the bus driver, thecustodial staff, like the un,
(37:03):
the ways that, you know, mastersand PhD level educators can.
Again, I'm sure I was guilty ofthis, so I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm
both pointing fingers and owningit.
Um, the way we can kind ofprioritize what we think is
being the most important work ofschools, while ignoring that,
like, our kids are picking up onall of these messages and they
(37:28):
might be the most kick-ass anyone of these positions and we
need them, like, we need them tobe actually, so, um.
We lose, we lose that in the, inthe, i I think in all, you know,
in all parts of schoolconversations, um, there are no
committees.
(37:48):
If I work with, if right now I'mworking with about 15 schools in
various capacities, there arezero committees that, um,
support all of the people in abuilding.
And I would, and I would even goso far as to say, even schools
that have social committees tendto leave out recess workers.
Clerks, you know, like, like thepeople who are really making
(38:09):
things run for the kids.
Dr (38:11):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (38:14):
I know I'm jumping, I know I'm jumping
around a little bit.
Dr (38:16):
Oh no, you're fine.
Look, Max is how my brain works'cause it's, but okay, this is
what I always tell people,right?
Like, this is how your brainworks.
I used to talk about this allthe time when I worked with, um,
preparing pre-service teachersor doing graduate level courses
with teachers, I would say, youknow, they'd be like, oh, I
can't, you know, have my kids dogroup work or I can't, whatever.
'cause they start having theseconversations I was like, what
(38:38):
do you think you all do?
Like you all do it all the time.
I said, but it is actually anatural human way.
Like someone says something, itmakes you think of something, it
connects to something else.
Eventually it does circle backaround.
Sometimes you may need a littleredirect with the,
Max Weinberg (38:52):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (38:53):
student group and even the adult student group.
Uh, but that is how our brainswork because that is how we
connect and remember things.
So yes, it seems like it's allover, but really it's not.
It's
Max Weinberg (39:06):
Right.
Dr (39:07):
to the experience of what we're talking about, and I
always
Max Weinberg (39:10):
Right.
Dr (39:11):
remember this because.
It is my biggest soapbox to stopexpecting things from children
that we cannot do as an adult.
Max Weinberg (39:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (39:22):
Like there are so many of those, some of which is like
sitting perfectly still or likenot moving right, or not need,
like you all do all thesethings, you know, pay attention
to your next professionaldevelopment
Max Weinberg (39:33):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (39:33):
ever looking at your phone?
Um, I bet you do.
Max Weinberg (39:36):
Yeah.
Dr (39:37):
um.
Not saying we shouldn't haveexpectations, but like, let's,
let's make them realistic,right?
Like a first grader can't sitfor 45 minutes still on a rug,
or you
Max Weinberg (39:47):
Yeah.
I just, just before we got on, Iwas, working with the teacher
for.
Let's say a child I care verymuch about who has an
educational plan.
And, the plan guarantees thatshe get time and a half on
assignments, um, based onlearning profile and that, and
we reminded the teacher, and theteacher came back and said,
(40:07):
okay, like, I'm willing to dothat, which, you know, this
should not be up for debatebecause it's a legal document, 5
0 4 IEP 5 0 4.
And the teacher came back andsaid, I'm willing to do this as
long as the child makes the mostout of the class time that I
give.
And I had the same reactionyou're talking about, like, you
know, I train adults for aliving.
Like the amount of breaks wehave to build in the amount of
(40:30):
time we have to allow for justcatching up or meandering.
Um, and you know, the questionof like, are we running a
factory or we rerunning aschool?
Like if, you know, anyone thinksdifferently.
As everyone does, then sittingstill for 85 minutes for a topic
(40:51):
that's totally new every day andjust cramming it in your brain,
you're not gonna get what youexpect to get.
Uh, what you might get is a lotof kids who are just compliant
and could just sit and make itlook like they're working or,
you know, fiddling with thepaper.
But, um, that's not how deep,long-term meaningful thinking
(41:11):
and learning works like you'regonna turn kids off.
Um, and, and, and I think thefear when I get that back from
teachers is like, so there's afederal law that protects the
child about this.
Dr (41:24):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (41:24):
know, like, and this is, this is how you're
perceiving of your job.
And I'm not blaming theindividual teacher, teacher.
I'm saying, what in that systemis telling that teacher that
this is the right way?
To center childhood at this,like such a formative time.
We're talking about high school,early high school, freshman year
at such a formative time oflife.
(41:47):
Um, you really, kids really,really, really get put through
the ringer.
Um, with traditional schoolingright now.
Dr (41:55):
yeah, yeah.
And you know, they need.
They need advocates, they need,I talk all the time about, you
know, use your voice, right.
This goes back to like whenyou're in space as a privilege,
like if you see something likethat, you know, people aren't
trying to follow five oh fours.
They are, you know, they'retrying to talk about setting up
systems that aren't best forkids because really that is.
(42:16):
Why we are in education, right?
We're in education to supportchildren.
Max Weinberg (42:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (42:22):
And if you're in education and you don't wanna support
children, you might need to havesome reflection time and, and
think about that because that isreally what the job is.
The job is about supporting andproviding the best environment
for kids to.
Grow and be successful adultsout in society.
Right?
Like, it's like parenting,right?
Like your job as a parent is tohelp build individual,
(42:43):
independent
Max Weinberg (42:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (42:45):
that are able to go off into the world.
Well, you know, in Locus ez,that is the mirroring
Max Weinberg (42:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (42:52):
what the educational system is supposed to do.
Um.
Okay, so we talked, we've talkedabout so many things, and I love
it, and I always, every episodethere's like, we could have
three other episodes about otherthings that
Max Weinberg (43:05):
Yeah, and local parentis is definitely the under
song.
It, it is not getting enoughairtime in in current lexicon or
current conversations aroundschool.
Like we, there are all sorts ofreasons for it, I think, but
that is like we have to bringteachers.
Back to that A, so a socialworker recently asked me, what's
the code of ethics foreducators?
(43:26):
And I was like, there are many.
And I, you know, I, I kind ofwent to like union contracts,
have them, there are a lotfloating around.
I was like, but honestly Ireally think it's in loco
parentis.
Like, like we don't have thesame one as social workers have,
which is beautiful and lengthyand rich and guided by all sorts
of things.
We have a lot of school law, butI was like.
(43:47):
Actually it's in local parentis.
Kids are spending more, we knowthis.
It's been this way for a longtime.
Kids spend more time at school.
Um, we know this because HolySmokes school shooting.
Like we know this.
I mean, you know, so, yeah.
Yes, yes.
So.
Dr (44:07):
You are like, yes.
Yes.
Okay.
So, um, I like to kind of bringthings together, with like a tip
to listeners.
I know we, we could pull from alot of different things, but
what is like the one thing youwant people to walk away is, or
doing this journey, what issomething you think that they
could, could take on and do?
Max Weinberg (44:30):
I want this to sound really positive.
I want this to sound like,hopeful.
Um, but I do wanna, I'm gonna.
Just sort of like frame it alittle bit.
There's been a conversation fora while now.
I think.
Um, it was starting beforeCOVID, um, about joy, joy in
schools in my kids' district.
(44:52):
The phrase.
This came up through a corporatemodel of educating in Chicago
called the J Factor.
Um, and the J factor was, everylesson plan should have, it was
sort of like a hook or somethingthat really stimulates the kids.
Dr (45:07):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (45:09):
in our district, it's become just sort of like
shorthand for like, you know,kids come to school and have fun
and like with many things, myargument is there's no joy
without belonging.
Um, and I think that that issomething that like, I really
would love, really anyone whoworks with kids traditional
(45:33):
school or not to think about.
Sometimes we create systems ofwhat we call joy or experiences
that we might think is joyful.
You know, playing a brain breakon a YouTube video, having a
whole school assembly wherethey're playing like prices,
right?
Types, types of games.
And those might, pep rally,those might be joyful for some,
those might have like acollective feeling of joy.
(45:56):
But if you just stand in acorner and look around, um, it's
really not that hard to see.
How many people might be sortof, um, either externally or
internally withdrawing fromexperiences like that, which I
think then we can extrapolateinto like the educational
experience.
Um, so my, my push and my ask isfor educators to like, yes, find
(46:19):
the joy, but first, seek outways to help kids belong in
schools through authenticconnection.
Um, and if I back it up evenmore, I would say.
Adults showing deep, realcuriosity, sometimes longer than
(46:39):
they feel comfortable doing.
So I'm gonna ask why, why, why,why, why?
You're telling me this storyright now and I'm gonna love
every minute of it, even if I'mbusy.
Um, can back up, can, can, um,be like the driveway into
belongingness for a lot of kids.
I, I don't think we have to talkabout, we, we don't have to
diagnose kids with things likeavoidant attachment or
(47:00):
attachment issues.
If we as a system are actuallypouring into helping them
belong, um, you know, it doublesthe burden on kids.
So that's sort of the one thingI, I wish and ask for.
And I think, going back to howyou introed me, which I really
appreciated, like that is athrough line, both as a kid and.
(47:20):
Even as, someone balding withgray hair as I go to school is
like, if you had just taken 30extra seconds, then that kid
might not have just withdrawn or
Dr (47:33):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (47:33):
um, you know, gotten really upset.
Dr (47:38):
I think that's a really powerful, thing to ask, and I
think it's really important forpeople to remember like, we're
the adults in the situation andwe should be holding the
ownership.
And to often that ownership getstransferred to the students or
(47:58):
the children
Max Weinberg (47:59):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (47:59):
and, and it shouldn't be.
So I think.
I'm gonna even ask you to take apause, right?
When you feel like you're gonnabe pushing some blame onto a
child, and is that a bias comingup before you, know, act on it?
Because sometimes that is, itmay be an untapped recognition
of bias, you
Max Weinberg (48:19):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (48:20):
as I've said many times, y'all, bias is a part of human
nature.
Max Weinberg (48:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (48:24):
what you do with when you start to recognize it that you
know, will really make all thedifference.
Max Weinberg (48:30):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (48:31):
Um, well thank you Max for joining
Max Weinberg (48:34):
Thank you Dr.
Ine.
Dr (48:36):
Listeners, I'll put a link, uh, to Belonging Education in
the show notes so you can checkit out and check out Max's
service.
And eventually, when his bookcomes out, uh, you can
Max Weinberg (48:46):
Looking for July 26th from, from Rutledge?
Dr (48:49):
Okay.
Max Weinberg (48:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr (48:50):
Less than a year away.
Max Weinberg (48:52):
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr (48:53):
is so
Max Weinberg (48:54):
Thank you.
Dr (48:55):
Thank you all for listening again today.
Um, go ahead and check out theshow notes.
Remember to like, share andsubscribe and remember to use
your voice today.
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of The Equity
Hour with me, your host, Dr.
Tami, and I am so excited.
Today we have Dr.
Max Weinberg in the house.
Hi Max,
Max Weinberg (00:12):
Hi, good to see you.
Dr (00:14):
Thanks for joining us today, Max.
Uh, tell y'all a little bitabout Max.
He is the founder of BelongingLLC and has spent more than 25
years in the educationprofession serving as a teacher
trained, special educator, coachand administrator.
Max's passion for belongingarises from his experiences as a
student, parent and professionaladvocating for marginalized
(00:35):
children, ensuring that allchildren are seen and understood
in Schools is personal andprofessional.
Max brings his background as aloss affected youth as a
transracial adoptive parent, andas a trauma informed educator
and advocate to each situationhe encounters.
Thank you so much for joining uson the podcast today.
(00:55):
Thanks
Max Weinberg (00:55):
for having me.
This is very cool.
Dr (00:58):
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
Okay, Max.
So.
As my listeners know, and as youprobably know, like I start each
episode about talking about eachof my guests, about their equity
journey, and I do that because.
This is a journey.
To me, it is a marathon, like itis a consistent process of
learning or unlearning.
(01:19):
And so I feel like in the worldthere's this idea that you can
do one professional developmentor you do this one thing, or
been doing this X amount of.
You know, and now all of asudden you're a quote unquote
expert.
And in my opinion, like you'renever really an expert because
there's always something
Max Weinberg (01:39):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (01:39):
So you may be very knowledgeable, you may be very
experienced, but it may be inonly certain aspects of
Max Weinberg (01:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (01:47):
Equity and belonging and inclusion, because there are so
much intersectionality andnuance within it.
So I would love, can you share alittle bit, and I always say
like, when I have guest who'sbeen in this work, as long as I
have like the Cliff notesversion,
Max Weinberg (02:03):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (02:04):
bit about your journey into this work.
Max Weinberg (02:07):
Thank you for, um, well thanks for having me.
This is very, very cool.
I've enjoyed listening to yourpodcast and yes, I am on an
equity journey and, in thescheme of things.
Because I'm a believer in howfoundational childhood is.
I, even though I feel like, andI wanna say, and I take pride in
(02:28):
saying that I got into educationfor, to work on equity or to,
make the world a better place.
Especially when it came tohistorically marginalized
people.
I'm really a beginner.
I'm, I, I'm still there is stillso, so, so, so, so much to learn
and I think.
That shows up in the layers likelocally.
(02:50):
And then if we just use our, theway we're set up, I live in a
suburb, so big city, state,federally, and then just like
historically, like 400 years ormore of this mess being created
more, right?
More than 400.
But, but, and, and trying tounderstand.
(03:11):
And contextualize every singleday.
Things were getting worse for somany and better, for so few, um,
multiplied by, like I said,every day.
And there's so much to learn,all to say.
So, I was raised in the suburbsof Chicago, white nuclear
family, 1980s.
(03:33):
A little queer kid but couldmask pretty well.
Um, when it came to safety, likelearn to keep my mouth shut
about things, was like prettyfemme but could hide it.
Or could hide behind my bigsister or, this is a harder
thing to talk about'cause Ihaven't really unpacked it.
But being Jewish in a prettynon-Jewish community also gave
(03:57):
me like.
It both, it both othered me, butalso gave me a community to feel
safe to hide in.
Dr (04:05):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (04:06):
that was white, that was all steeped in white
supremacy too.
So, that's all been part of myjourney of understanding how I
had privilege there by being ina tight knit white supremacist
Jewish culture, but also beingable to wave a flag of
minoration.
I lost my sister.
I already mentioned my sister.
Really, really, really close.
(04:26):
Lost my sister and that's wheremy kind of profound loss came.
She was a, or the primaryattachment figure in my life,
and she kind of like had pavedthe way, just the person she was
like.
Punk rock.
Um, a kid living with cancerproudly and all of the markers
of having childhood cancerreally proudly, um, in her own
(04:49):
like teenage way fighting thesystem of hospitalization for
kids and like naming equityissues, like just because it
was, she was awesome and thatwas just what she saw.
She was treated on the southside of Chicago.
So at University of Chicagowhere like racial.
Disparities were on fulldisplay.
Dr (05:05):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (05:05):
Um, and it's like those were my, those were in me.
And then, went to school andwent to a school on the east
coast that I struggled to namecurrently, but I really had a
great education.
And their motto was, truth, evenon unto its innermost parts.
And I wanted to be a journalistand that really meant a lot to
me, truth even un, to itsinnermost parts.
(05:27):
Then I got to a school that hadundergrad that had crazy racial
disparities, on display and wassteeped in Zionism.
And, I kind of wondered whatthat meant.
Truth even un, to its innermostparts.
Wanted to be a writer.
Wanted to be a journalist.
Um.
A bunch of us moved to New YorkCity together and working in the
(05:50):
publishing industry was not sofun.
And lots and lots and lots ofinteresting sort of dynamics
showing up there aboutsocioeconomics and racial
dynamics.
Who had a voice at the table?
Who was running the show?
Um, this was, you know, 1999 andlanded yes, in Teach for
America, which is a wholeconversation for another time.
(06:12):
I am very thankful for theopportunities that many people
in that organization gave me.
And they supported me going to areally progressive child
centered Master's program atBank Street School of Education.
And I was teaching in the SouthBronx and eventually in Harlem,
and I just say like, my firstday on the job in the South
(06:33):
Bronx.
I was given a class that wascalled the lowest, a tiered
class, four out of fourth out offour.
And I stood in front of them thefirst day sort of using my
nostalgia of what it meant to bea teacher.
And I think I tried to lecturethem for eight hours, maybe the
first week.
And they showed me that wasnever gonna happen.
(06:55):
And they were sixth graders.
They were adorable and beautifuland hilarious and just like I
just.
They were magnetic.
Like I was just like, you areall amazing and each one of you
has the most amazing perspectiveon the world.
And so that was just like, thatwas it.
I was hooked.
That was the blast.
A blast.
My mom is a career educator too,so like I grew up in a house
(07:17):
where we not just valuededucation from like a middle
class white perspective, butalso like.
What it meant to have greatteach like teachers who really
got you and advocated for youand what effective principals
do.
Like that was very much just thetopic of conversation at the
dinner table.
Dr (07:34):
Yeah.
Well, you know, I always find itso interesting that they always
give the students with thehighest need to the least
experienced
Max Weinberg (07:43):
That was me.
Dr (07:44):
like.
Max Weinberg (07:45):
And you know the one,
Dr (07:46):
in this story too.
Max Weinberg (07:48):
right?
That was me and, um.
The school.
Just to even go deeper withthat, the school was known as
like a failing school.
It was in the South Bronx, theasthma capital of the world in
Hunts Point.
And when I interviewed for thejob, it was like one of these
sit for 15 minutes and theprincipal says, we have a
position.
Do you want it?
We really need someone.
(08:08):
And I was like, I, yes, Iabsolutely do.
Like, you know, I, I, I don'tknow what I'm doing, but I wanna
save the world.
It was, was a failing school ona street named, um, fail Street
in the South Bronx.
Oh.
And when he interviewed me, hesaid, you might know our
neighborhood from the HBO.
Rea it was reality show, but Idon't know if we had that name
(08:29):
for it at the time.
Probably just beginning withreality shows, docuseries, um,
hookers at the point, you mightknow us from the show called
Hookers at the Point, and I waslike, I do know that show.
And it was, you know, thecommunity was just so, so, so
traumatized.
It's had a tiny bit of rerevitalization.
Dr (08:47):
Uh.
Max Weinberg (08:48):
Um, and there's, there always have been amazing
community activists there.
Um.
But for a principal to tell methat that's how the school is
known, just kind of context, puteverything into perspective of
like, yeah, this is, this iskind of, um, a really strange
way to set up, to set up yourschool and your perception of
what the kids bring to theschool too.
(09:08):
So
Dr (09:09):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (09:10):
my
Dr (09:10):
about the community, right?
And like that the, thesestudents come to you.
From, right, like whatpreconceived biases
Max Weinberg (09:21):
right.
Dr (09:22):
having, if that is how you describe your school
environment.
Max Weinberg (09:27):
Yeah.
And, and you know, I, again,there you will hear throughout
this conversation, I'm veryaware of it and we can talk
about it, but you'll hear me saythings like this, like, how
simple would it have been tohave that street change, that
street name changed?
Dr (09:42):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (09:42):
And so when I say, I know, when I say, how simple
would that have been, I knowthat's my, that's all my
privilege, right?
Like, um, you just go, it's,it's, it's.
Um, the, the Karen in me, right?
Like, you just go, you fight forit, you ask for it, you demand
it, and that street name getschanged in honor of the kids.
And that's like a duality that Ilive with.
And I, I tussle with it even atmy dining room table with my
(10:04):
kids of like, I know I have a, alot of privilege to walk in
there and say stuff, um, and itmay or may not get done, get
done, but I feel that energy andsimultaneously I want everyone.
To be able to do that.
Like I want those kids andparents to be able to say,
you're educating my child at a,on a street called Fail Street.
(10:28):
We must change that now.
Like it should be ExcellenceStreet.
And it was F-A-I-L-E to be fair,it was named after someone.
Um, but you know, like, like howsimple would it have been to
stop talking smack about thekids or the community and to
advocate for real change for alocal, with a local
representative or governingbody?
Dr (10:46):
Yeah, but you know, I, I think you bring up a really good
point when we talk about.
Different access to things orprivilege that we may or may,
not have.
Like even though I'm from amarginalized community, like my
education and experiences giveme privileges, right?
To know.
(11:07):
to say or access.
Like I, I can tell you a story,like I was advocating for
something that was happening ina school district I was working
in with the superintendent andhe's like, well, the other
parents don't know.
They don't know you.
I said, I know they don't knowwhat I know and that is why I am
here
Max Weinberg (11:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr (11:23):
okay.
Max Weinberg (11:23):
Yeah.
Dr (11:25):
And I say all that to say the important part is like, what
do you do with that privilege?
Like, you know, you haveprivilege to go to the table.
Max Weinberg (11:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (11:33):
who are we inviting to come with us?
Max Weinberg (11:35):
For sure.
Dr (11:36):
To the table, like who are we opening the door for with the
areas in which we know we haveprivilege.
For those that don't have that
Max Weinberg (11:45):
Yeah.
Dr (11:45):
have knowledge that they may not yet have, that we can share
and collaborate with.
Max Weinberg (11:51):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting thing, and
I know we'll talk about it, butlike education as a protective
fact.
Like I think we talk abouteducation as being a protective
factor for individuals and we'renot great at talking about it.
Well, it's actually a protectivefactor for communities, and
communities that thrive are.
Get the education they deserveand they're given per, they're
(12:13):
given permission or they findways to allow themselves to
connect and activate with oneanother.
And, communities of valueeducation are able to receive
that activism too and havehealthy co discourse about it.
Um, so the protective factor isnot just about the individual,
but like entire societies areable to thrive when this
happens.
Dr (12:35):
Yeah.
Well this just makes me thinkright now like education as a
whole to me.
I mean, it's been under attackfor a minute, but, um, I feel
like public education is evenmore so under attack.
So we're starting to remove theidea of community, like, with
(12:55):
the, the growth of charterschools, with the conversation
around vouchers.
Max Weinberg (13:00):
Yeah.
Dr (13:01):
away, I mean, well even the fact that public schools are
funded based on property taxes,right?
Max Weinberg (13:08):
Right, right,
Dr (13:09):
there's just so many layers to the
Max Weinberg (13:13):
right.
Dr (13:13):
of what makes public education inequitable in this
country, despite how peoplewanna think it is equitable.
Max Weinberg (13:25):
Yeah, I think we're not it, it's, this is also
one more like we're just gettinginto, and it, and it is specific
to my journey, a fast trackprogram, alternative
certification program and in,and it happened to be in New
York City.
So seeing, seeing those peoplewho are part of just like
forming teacher core.
(13:46):
Um, rise through the ranks andend up where they are now.
It really makes sense.
Like, like I'm not, I'm reallyupset, but not that surprised
at, where we are because, youknow, um, my, I forget what she
was called.
My program director was someonewho.
Um, told me to keep my mouthshut and, um, you know, get back
(14:09):
in the classroom.
And she was so disappointed inme for raising issues of safety
and child wellbeing At thisfirst school I was at on Faile
Street,
Dr (14:16):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (14:17):
um, went on to run one of the biggest districts in
New York City that oversaweducation at, uh, Rikers Island,
which was like the scariestthought for me, like here was
someone who was telling teachersto be quiet about.
Physical abuse or mentaldistress at the very least at
(14:37):
school.
And now she's running this andthen went on to have an e even
bigger position in New York.
And now I'm sure is like inregular conversation with really
heavy hitters.
And you see this like all overthe place and it's, you know, we
know that every president hashad their hand in sort of, every
president in our lifetime hashad their hand in, um.
(15:00):
The destruction of neighborhoodpublic schools.
It's really, really interestingand I'm a huge fan of the
Obamas, but we're right here inChicago.
The Obama Center is going up andthere's been a school in Hyde
Park in the neighborhood theylived in, in the community they
lived in.
That, has is a beautiful,beautiful, beautiful building.
But it's been really, there's,it's seen huge.
(15:21):
Divestment over the past fewdecades.
Now, the Obama Center is goingup and it's getting tons of
attention, and as, as it alwaysshould have.
Um, it's also in the shadows ofthe University of Chicago and
the University of Chicago LabSchool, which has put in like
millions and millions ofdollars.
And so it's interesting thisconversation of like, you know,
(15:43):
we are able to find theresources.
When we know there is sort of amutual benefit, like this
school's gonna get a lot ofresources, it's gonna be
beautiful.
Hopefully it becomes a school ofchoice.
Everyone in the community wantsto go there.
Um, but why does it take, a newinternationally known museum or
center to beef up a school forchildren?
(16:06):
Like, like our, our, it feels sobackwards.
Like, shouldn't the children begetting the best first?
And then we build up from there.
Dr (16:14):
Uh, I mean, yes, I'm gonna, uh, I'm gonna agree with you.
I mean, I even, just like wewere like, oh, it's
characterized as a failingschool.
Like even how that language has.
Come about in my lifetime as aneducator, like that wasn't a
thing when I
Max Weinberg (16:33):
Hmm.
Dr (16:34):
edu, teaching and, and working in education and now
that is all that people talkabout.
And it is sad to me be for somany reasons, most of which it
is this testing era that isn'tabout anything but money.
Max Weinberg (16:51):
Mm.
Dr (16:52):
It really isn't about what's best for kids.
It really isn't about learningand excelling and improving our
academics.
And I know that because when yougo and you see what educators
and educational leaders arebeing asked to do, right, we're
over assessing.
Like you, you can't assess thatmuch and then
Max Weinberg (17:13):
Right.
Dr (17:13):
any growth, right?
Or it's.
Removing critical thinking,right?
Because
Max Weinberg (17:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (17:18):
to be easily scored, have to be multiple choice we've
Max Weinberg (17:21):
Right,
Dr (17:22):
like the writing assessment we've taken away and it just, I
don't even know where I'm goingwith this except it just makes
me sad.
It makes
Max Weinberg (17:30):
right.
Dr (17:31):
for the state of education that we think we need to label
schools as failing.
Max Weinberg (17:37):
Yeah.
And, and you know that it, that,um, when I describe my students,
like I.
Yeah, those students, my firstyear, we did the most fun stuff
in the world.
Like we got involved in aneighborhood arts arts
organization.
We helped with greening theBronx River.
I really like, used everything Ihad learned at summer camp, um,
(17:58):
like as a counselor going tocamp because I, it was, it was
clear that a very traditionalapproach to teaching and
learning, even though I didn'tknow how to teach, really, it
was clear like that wasn't gonnawork.
Dr (18:09):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (18:09):
these guys.
This was why they were for thesekids.
This is why they were in placewhere they were.
We wrote to Sandra Cisneros.
She came and visited our, shecame to visit the school.
Give them the resources and thetools and they were going to
change the world, right?
Like, like these are the mindsthat we say we want and we need,
um, you know, bill Gates'sdaughter, I just, I keep seeing
(18:30):
this over and over and over.
It must be something about myalgorithm.
Bill Gates's daughter justcreated a shopping app.
Um, you, it like helps you shop.
And I was like, so all of thesethinkers who sent their kids to
Montessori schools and said theynever gave them devices, who got
the best of the best of the bestare now creating shopping apps.
Like any one of my children inHunts Point in the Bronx who
(18:55):
understood how to see the worldin the most complex ways could.
You know what, out of thatshopping app and change the
world in all of their beautifuldiversity, and I haven't even
really talked explicitly aboutall of the diversity was there
because I think theirexperiences, the story that was
told about them, um, would evenbe so essentialized.
(19:18):
Right?
And even like, you know, this isthe community that Jonathan
Kozel would write about.
I think it was Daisy and like I,I love him and I love his heart.
But those, the way those booksare used, even in teacher
education programs, right?
It's like, it's like, it's avery essentializing way of
looking at schools.
And, I haven't, when I get to mystory, eventually being a
principal of a neighborhoodschool in Evanston, Illinois,
(19:40):
you know, a zip code that issupposed to shoot you, to
Stanford, um, it was like inwork and leading a very
segregated school, sort of, um,25% black.
Most of the students.
Low socioeconomic, I don't lovethat term.
I'm not using the right term,but 75% white and wealthier.
(20:00):
I knew which kids could thinkoutside of the box and I knew
which kids, were going to changethe world.
And I knew which kids, and, andit, it's not, it's not, you
know, only, one group or theother, but I knew which kids
were just sort of like, Treadingwater, water to keep up with the
exact path that their parentscreated for them, or wanted for
them, or thought they bought forthem by buying into the zip
(20:21):
code.
It's like, that's, that's notthe type of change we say we
want.
And I, and I, and I, when I saywe want, I say, you hear that
from any, any, um, politician,we need to build 21st century
skills and we need to build it.
It's like, do we or are we justlooking to fund billionaires
trust funds?
Dr (20:42):
Well, yeah.
Or do we or are we willing, arewe willing to do what it takes
to build that?
Like I had so much hope we wouldout of COVID and like realize
like
Max Weinberg (20:52):
Right.
Dr (20:53):
were doing was so broken.
I firmly believe children arecreative.
They think outside the box.
They notice things we don'tnotice and how we've shifted
education over the last twodecades.
Really, it, it.
Sucks that life out of them,
Max Weinberg (21:12):
right,
Dr (21:12):
we want them to all be the same, and we are seeing the
results of now, and then we'relike, oh, why are they like
this?
What do you mean they can'tthink for themselves?
Because we've educated them notto, we've educated them to fit
inside this box or only dothese, these things.
Max Weinberg (21:35):
right.
Dr (21:35):
society needs all kinds of diversity of thought, of ideas,
of ways of being taking awaykids access to art and
humanities and you know, andthen you wonder why people don't
understand what's happening withour government right now.
Because we weren't teachingsocial studies, you know, like
Max Weinberg (21:55):
That's right though.
Dr (21:56):
an impact.
Max Weinberg (21:58):
I think about that all the time because some of my
work is in teacher coaching andteacher development, and you and
I know you, that's yourbackground.
Um, you know the teacher, the 21and 22, well, 25-year-old,
26-year-old teachers are nochild left behind students, so
right.
Not only did they not gettrained on effective science and
social studies like applied mathand science teaching and
(22:20):
learning, they themselves didnot go to schools where they got
that.
And so many of them had theirarts programs cut even.
And I, and I say this even insuburban schools, like I spent
time, I said a, a, a schoolleader in Evanston.
And um, to get teachers to teachscience and social studies daily
was an uphill battle.
(22:42):
Um, and even every permission inthe world, like take them out to
the forest preserve.
I'd rather you do that thanteach, you know, what Houghton
Mifflin says needs to be taughtand challenging.
And you know, I say this withlove for teachers, but also like
you, it is hard to teach in away you've never experienced
(23:02):
yourself unless you've had alot, a lot, a lot of
professional development andlike exposure.
Dr (23:08):
Yeah.
Well, and as a former liketeacher educator, I definitely
saw that in my time there.
Like I could see when theystarted to come.
Max Weinberg (23:19):
Uh.
Dr (23:19):
To the college classroom.
And what we were saying is, youknow, best practice.
And then what happens when theygo then and have to go into a
school district where it's notthe same,
Max Weinberg (23:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (23:33):
There's not an alignment because we're now moving toward
script curriculum, you know,
Max Weinberg (23:37):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (23:37):
I know people are on attack, two teacher ed programs saying,
right, they're not doing X, Y,or C, which.
I firmly disagree with,'cause alot of those people saying that
aren't actually doing realresearch, but that's a whole
nother, whole notherconversation.
Right.
But I think what it does is wehave the blind leaving the blind
(24:02):
a little bit.
Like, so even if we open it up,have we given them the tools to
be able to.
Access that, you know, um, we'veseen an increase in,
non-traditional teachers coming.
Some of that is great andwonderful depending on how they
were supported in coming to theclassroom.
(24:23):
Some of them, they're not sosupported, right.
Depending on your state and yourregulations, and they're just
kind of like thrown in there
Max Weinberg (24:30):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (24:30):
this idea, and this is my, this is just my personal
thought, right?
thinks they can be an educator.
Going back to kind of what yousaid, like I, I've, I've been
taught like, because I'veexperienced teachers, I now know
how to teach,
Max Weinberg (24:45):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (24:45):
those aren't necessarily, they're not the same
Max Weinberg (24:49):
Right.
Dr (24:50):
is a, it is a profession as a highly specialized profession
Max Weinberg (24:53):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (24:54):
historically doesn't get the, respect because it, let's
be honest, right, is beentraditionally a female
profession and role.
I mean, you go back to originalteachers, you couldn't be
married,
Max Weinberg (25:07):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (25:08):
be seen
Max Weinberg (25:09):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr (25:10):
after a certain time because, oh, schedule, right?
Like, so all of that influenceshow pe like, and I think when
we, when you talk about like thehistory, right?
All of this influences where weare.
In society today, and I thinkthat's really important for
people to know, because
Max Weinberg (25:29):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (25:30):
history, you can't understand where we are today
Max Weinberg (25:31):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (25:32):
history might be actually
Max Weinberg (25:35):
Yeah.
Dr (25:35):
it.
Max Weinberg (25:37):
I think the worry is, um, like even when you're
talking about like the pioneerschool days, like we, it, it,
it, even that structure, likewho was plucked and, and I'm
saying this while alsorecognizing patriarchy and, you
know, anti womanist.
Views, but like we also,there's, there was a humanity
(25:57):
piece lost, right?
Like, so I'm, I'm working on abook right now on school
belonging.
And so much of what I am pushingis best practice and best
lowercase b best, but like,really what I mean is humane
practice.
Yes.
It's trauma informed, yes, it'ssocial emotional, responsive.
Yes.
I, I hope I do justice withcultural competence, but it is
(26:19):
like sit down and listen.
Talk, explain how you start wentfrom A to B2C to D, and don't
assume that someone else's brainis going to do it the same way.
Dr (26:32):
Mm.
Max Weinberg (26:32):
Like, like sort of like what are our foundational,
what do we foundationallybelieve should be happening when
we are in a, you know, I knowthis is a loaded word, but a
transactional education moment.
But like if I am hired to do ajob, then standing up and
pushing iReady math is actuallynot the job I was hired to do,
(26:54):
where even if I look, even ifeven giving school districts all
the benefits without, when Ilook at my job description, it's
not all written about iReady.
It's written about in behind,behind it.
Ethically in local parentis,like I'm there for the child
when their parent cannot be.
I commit to keeping the childsafe.
I, yes, I am absolutelycommitted to lesson planning or
(27:15):
whatever language is used forthat.
And underneath that is like, I'mthere to dignify the children's
experience and this can easily,or the child's brain, the
child's experience, the child'spotential, all of those things.
I get into some sticky water,and I did as a principal too,
when it comes to teacher socialemotional wellbeing.
(27:36):
Like what promise for teachers?
That's a much, much, much morenuanced conversation.
I should, yeah, I think nuancedis a fair way to say it.
Conversation for me, from myperspective and when I think
about student belonging.
Um, but, but that piece of like,how did we get to a place where
we stop listening and affirmingwhoever that child is in what,
(27:58):
whatever shape they show up.
I do a little bit of workadvocating for parents, with
students with disabilities, andthe amount of, right now, the
place we're in.
When you go to the table for anIEP meeting or special
education?
It is, it just, it just feels sotense and my, you know, take on
it is so anti disability, it'sso ableist, but like fervently
(28:22):
anti disability.
I, I may have been guilty ofthis 10 or 15 years ago, like.
I'm assuming that parents arecoming to rig the system to lie
about their children.
Um, and that's the feeling youget sometimes.
And it's like, wait a minute,let's slow down here.
And remember again, we'retalking about children.
Dr (28:44):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (28:44):
And, and we do have an ethical development to,
to an ethical, you know,commitment to, to support them.
And how do, did we get to aplace that says whatever Pearson
is pushing out and selling onthe stock market is more
important to deliver than achild's experience like, like
(29:05):
that is so, you know, I thoughtwe did away with that when.
You know, well, I don't know.
I, I, I, I can't say anythingnow'cause politically clearly we
have not done away with that.
I was, I was listening to, therewas a big Google decision this
morning and I was listening toNPR say, Google has been, um,
Google has been very worriedabout how it was going to be
(29:29):
treated by the courts today.
And I wanted you wanna pause andbe like, dear NPRI love you.
Google was not worried.
Google does not have feelings.
The billionaire, millions whohave invested in Google may have
been worried, but we're gonna beokay.
And you know, who's reallyworried is like, you know, I, we
(29:49):
could go on and on about, atthis very moment, a newcomer to
Chicago, LA, or DC is very, veryworried.
Like, like, let's really talkabout where we should be putting
our attention.
Dr (30:02):
Yeah, I mean, that is such a good point, right?
Like the, there's been aapplying human.
Characteristics
Max Weinberg (30:12):
you.
Yes.
Dr (30:13):
companies, that is they don't have feelings, they don't
like any of those things.
Um, do wanna talk about, youtalked a little bit about your
experience and a little bitabout the work you do.
So you, founded BelongingEducation,
Max Weinberg (30:28):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (30:29):
so please share with us like how you decided to.
Build a company and, and what isit you do out here supporting,
um, belonging in, in schooldistricts?
Max Weinberg (30:43):
Yeah, so belong.
So, you know, I'm, sort of an,an infant business still.
Um, belonging, grew out of mydissertation I researched.
Effective practices, to supportadopted and looked after kids.
So I'm a transracial adoptiveparent and have supported, um, a
lot of kids who are in all typesof care situations as a teacher
(31:07):
and as a principal.
Adopted and looked after kids.
Kids in foster care, kids inkinship.
I use it, I use, looked afterit.
It was a term used in the uk,um, or it still is for kids who
really were in foster situationsor kinship care, but I use it
because it's such a niceumbrella term for anyone who's
been in temporary care, even ifit's informal care.
(31:30):
Hey, I need my friend to help,help out with my kids'cause I'm
going through it.
So I say looked after because alot of the experiences, um,
where it shows up sort ofemotionally and lived
experiences with being movedaround with for kids and having,
um, challenges to attachmentoften are the same whether
you're adopted or looked after.
(31:50):
Even, even for kids who areadopted a birth.
The, the, the.
Challenges that they workthrough are really, really
similar.
So my dissertation was onstrengthening school belonging
for adopted and looked afterkids, and I didn't wanna let it
go.
I'm now a school leadershipcoach and a lot of my work, um,
(32:12):
you walk around schools andgranted I was a little bit of a
hammer looking for a nail.
Like you walk around schools,you listen, you start to see
like, wait a minute.
I hear you talking about thisone child who their dad is not
changing, they're not fittingin.
Um, and, and this is probablyevery single school.
(32:33):
Um, and the more I startedhearing that, I was like, well,
I want to, I gotta do somethingwith this research because I
believe in it.
I was fascinated by what cameout of it.
Um, and so I started belonging.
There are certain parts of thisbelonging framework that grew
outta my research that areapplicable to all kids or to
(32:55):
kind of Gloria Latson billings.
Like that's just good teaching.
Dr (32:58):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (32:58):
Um, and then there's some that is really
about, um, justice and equityand centering populations who
have historically beenmarginalized.
Dr (33:08):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (33:09):
and right now the schools that I work with
directly.
Um, that's not true.
One school I work with directly,it is about voices who have
historically been marginalized.
Dr (33:18):
Okay.
Max Weinberg (33:19):
and one school it is much more holistic.
Like that's just good teaching.
But, um, with the other school,we are real with the, that's
just good teaching.
We are really focusing onbeefing up paraprofessional,
Dr (33:31):
Oh, mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (33:31):
knowledge, ability, skill, um, because
which feels like good,meaningful, like justice
oriented work.
Because the principals, like Igive them so much credit,
realized that they, reallycould, had more bandwidth to
spare as far as investing withtheir para professionals and
knew that, they were worthinvesting in.
(33:51):
And that, kids deserved to haveall of their teachers totally
aligned no matter sort of statusor where they were coming from.
Dr (34:00):
I, think that is.
I think paraprofessionals are anoften overlooked group in the
educational system, but
Max Weinberg (34:07):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:09):
um,
Max Weinberg (34:10):
Angels, I mean, and, and, and, and I think, I
think parents we're in a littlebit of like, you know, parents
are getting all information fromall sorts of parent places about
schools and education, but Ithink parents understand better
than school leaders how vitalparaprofessionals are.
Like they really champion and,and I think we've, we've missed
(34:31):
that.
We have misunderstood that too.
Like why is this parent soclose?
Or why does this parent want totalk so desperately to this
paraprofessional?
And I think school leaders, Imight have been, I'd have to
think back, but I was probablyguilty of this sometimes like.
Like, no, we've gotta get themto talk to the teacher and there
is a hierarchy here and thatjust hurts the kid.
(34:51):
And it's really undignifying forthe, you know, skilled
paraprofessionals.
Like, you know, I recently putup something on my social media,
like, there are no unskilledworkers.
Like, let's stop that phrase.
Um, we might be really bad attraining people.
That might be our fault, butlike paraprofessionals come in
with like a whole lot ofknowledge and a passion for
(35:12):
supporting and educating kids.
Dr (35:14):
Yeah.
Well yeah to me the reason theparent wants to talk to the
paraprofessional is because theparaprofessional knows their
child I always say I if likesomething make you comfortable,
you have to look back andreflect on yourself, why is that
making you uncomfortable?
Like,
Max Weinberg (35:33):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (35:34):
that this parent is going this paraprofessional?
And it's probably because theyknow something that you should
probably know and whether or notyou're ready to admit that to
yourself.
But it it, it's true.
And or how do you foster acollaborative partnership with
your paraprofessional to gainsome of the knowledge that they
have about your students?
Because it is very real.
Max Weinberg (35:55):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (35:56):
teachers have 30 students that, you know, they have a
large number of students.
So if you have this additionallayer of support
Max Weinberg (36:02):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (36:03):
space to help you get to know students better
Max Weinberg (36:06):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (36:07):
and maybe a little bit differently of the access they
have,
Max Weinberg (36:11):
Right.
Dr (36:12):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (36:12):
Yeah.
Dr (36:13):
Let's use that.
Right.
Going back to what you saidabout what is best for kids.
Max Weinberg (36:19):
We also, we also, it's been interesting to watch.
Um, I was mostly an elementaryperson, but having high
schoolers of my own and workingwith some high schoolers, it's
really interesting to, to seehow we do or don't live out our
commitment to career andtechnical education.
Because that, that's also astriking thing of like.
(36:41):
How, you know, I know this ismostly an adult podcast, so I
think I can say like how shitupon some members of a school
community are, while we're alsosaying we so support career and
technical education, so everyoneknows who I'm talking about,
right?
We're talking about the lunchworkers, the recess workers, the
clerk, the bus driver, thecustodial staff, like the un,
(37:03):
the ways that, you know, mastersand PhD level educators can.
Again, I'm sure I was guilty ofthis, so I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm
both pointing fingers and owningit.
Um, the way we can kind ofprioritize what we think is
being the most important work ofschools, while ignoring that,
like, our kids are picking up onall of these messages and they
(37:28):
might be the most kick-ass anyone of these positions and we
need them, like, we need them tobe actually, so, um.
We lose, we lose that in the, inthe, i I think in all, you know,
in all parts of schoolconversations, um, there are no
committees.
(37:48):
If I work with, if right now I'mworking with about 15 schools in
various capacities, there arezero committees that, um,
support all of the people in abuilding.
And I would, and I would even goso far as to say, even schools
that have social committees tendto leave out recess workers.
Clerks, you know, like, like thepeople who are really making
(38:09):
things run for the kids.
Dr (38:11):
Mm-hmm.
Max Weinberg (38:14):
I know I'm jumping, I know I'm jumping
around a little bit.
Dr (38:16):
Oh no, you're fine.
Look, Max is how my brain works'cause it's, but okay, this is
what I always tell people,right?
Like, this is how your brainworks.
I used to talk about this allthe time when I worked with, um,
preparing pre-service teachersor doing graduate level courses
with teachers, I would say, youknow, they'd be like, oh, I
can't, you know, have my kids dogroup work or I can't, whatever.
'cause they start having theseconversations I was like, what
(38:38):
do you think you all do?
Like you all do it all the time.
I said, but it is actually anatural human way.
Like someone says something, itmakes you think of something, it
connects to something else.
Eventually it does circle backaround.
Sometimes you may need a littleredirect with the,
Max Weinberg (38:52):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (38:53):
student group and even the adult student group.
Uh, but that is how our brainswork because that is how we
connect and remember things.
So yes, it seems like it's allover, but really it's not.
It's
Max Weinberg (39:06):
Right.
Dr (39:07):
to the experience of what we're talking about, and I
always
Max Weinberg (39:10):
Right.
Dr (39:11):
remember this because.
It is my biggest soapbox to stopexpecting things from children
that we cannot do as an adult.
Max Weinberg (39:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (39:22):
Like there are so many of those, some of which is like
sitting perfectly still or likenot moving right, or not need,
like you all do all thesethings, you know, pay attention
to your next professionaldevelopment
Max Weinberg (39:33):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (39:33):
ever looking at your phone?
Um, I bet you do.
Max Weinberg (39:36):
Yeah.
Dr (39:37):
um.
Not saying we shouldn't haveexpectations, but like, let's,
let's make them realistic,right?
Like a first grader can't sitfor 45 minutes still on a rug,
or you
Max Weinberg (39:47):
Yeah.
I just, just before we got on, Iwas, working with the teacher
for.
Let's say a child I care verymuch about who has an
educational plan.
And, the plan guarantees thatshe get time and a half on
assignments, um, based onlearning profile and that, and
we reminded the teacher, and theteacher came back and said,
(40:07):
okay, like, I'm willing to dothat, which, you know, this
should not be up for debatebecause it's a legal document, 5
0 4 IEP 5 0 4.
And the teacher came back andsaid, I'm willing to do this as
long as the child makes the mostout of the class time that I
give.
And I had the same reactionyou're talking about, like, you
know, I train adults for aliving.
Like the amount of breaks wehave to build in the amount of
(40:30):
time we have to allow for justcatching up or meandering.
Um, and you know, the questionof like, are we running a
factory or we rerunning aschool?
Like if, you know, anyone thinksdifferently.
As everyone does, then sittingstill for 85 minutes for a topic
(40:51):
that's totally new every day andjust cramming it in your brain,
you're not gonna get what youexpect to get.
Uh, what you might get is a lotof kids who are just compliant
and could just sit and make itlook like they're working or,
you know, fiddling with thepaper.
But, um, that's not how deep,long-term meaningful thinking
(41:11):
and learning works like you'regonna turn kids off.
Um, and, and, and I think thefear when I get that back from
teachers is like, so there's afederal law that protects the
child about this.
Dr (41:24):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (41:24):
know, like, and this is, this is how you're
perceiving of your job.
And I'm not blaming theindividual teacher, teacher.
I'm saying, what in that systemis telling that teacher that
this is the right way?
To center childhood at this,like such a formative time.
We're talking about high school,early high school, freshman year
at such a formative time oflife.
(41:47):
Um, you really, kids really,really, really get put through
the ringer.
Um, with traditional schoolingright now.
Dr (41:55):
yeah, yeah.
And you know, they need.
They need advocates, they need,I talk all the time about, you
know, use your voice, right.
This goes back to like whenyou're in space as a privilege,
like if you see something likethat, you know, people aren't
trying to follow five oh fours.
They are, you know, they'retrying to talk about setting up
systems that aren't best forkids because really that is.
(42:16):
Why we are in education, right?
We're in education to supportchildren.
Max Weinberg (42:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (42:22):
And if you're in education and you don't wanna support
children, you might need to havesome reflection time and, and
think about that because that isreally what the job is.
The job is about supporting andproviding the best environment
for kids to.
Grow and be successful adultsout in society.
Right?
Like, it's like parenting,right?
Like your job as a parent is tohelp build individual,
(42:43):
independent
Max Weinberg (42:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (42:45):
that are able to go off into the world.
Well, you know, in Locus ez,that is the mirroring
Max Weinberg (42:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (42:52):
what the educational system is supposed to do.
Um.
Okay, so we talked, we've talkedabout so many things, and I love
it, and I always, every episodethere's like, we could have
three other episodes about otherthings that
Max Weinberg (43:05):
Yeah, and local parentis is definitely the under
song.
It, it is not getting enoughairtime in in current lexicon or
current conversations aroundschool.
Like we, there are all sorts ofreasons for it, I think, but
that is like we have to bringteachers.
Back to that A, so a socialworker recently asked me, what's
the code of ethics foreducators?
(43:26):
And I was like, there are many.
And I, you know, I, I kind ofwent to like union contracts,
have them, there are a lotfloating around.
I was like, but honestly Ireally think it's in loco
parentis.
Like, like we don't have thesame one as social workers have,
which is beautiful and lengthyand rich and guided by all sorts
of things.
We have a lot of school law, butI was like.
(43:47):
Actually it's in local parentis.
Kids are spending more, we knowthis.
It's been this way for a longtime.
Kids spend more time at school.
Um, we know this because HolySmokes school shooting.
Like we know this.
I mean, you know, so, yeah.
Yes, yes.
So.
Dr (44:07):
You are like, yes.
Yes.
Okay.
So, um, I like to kind of bringthings together, with like a tip
to listeners.
I know we, we could pull from alot of different things, but
what is like the one thing youwant people to walk away is, or
doing this journey, what issomething you think that they
could, could take on and do?
Max Weinberg (44:30):
I want this to sound really positive.
I want this to sound like,hopeful.
Um, but I do wanna, I'm gonna.
Just sort of like frame it alittle bit.
There's been a conversation fora while now.
I think.
Um, it was starting beforeCOVID, um, about joy, joy in
schools in my kids' district.
(44:52):
The phrase.
This came up through a corporatemodel of educating in Chicago
called the J Factor.
Um, and the J factor was, everylesson plan should have, it was
sort of like a hook or somethingthat really stimulates the kids.
Dr (45:07):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (45:09):
in our district, it's become just sort of like
shorthand for like, you know,kids come to school and have fun
and like with many things, myargument is there's no joy
without belonging.
Um, and I think that that issomething that like, I really
would love, really anyone whoworks with kids traditional
(45:33):
school or not to think about.
Sometimes we create systems ofwhat we call joy or experiences
that we might think is joyful.
You know, playing a brain breakon a YouTube video, having a
whole school assembly wherethey're playing like prices,
right?
Types, types of games.
And those might, pep rally,those might be joyful for some,
those might have like acollective feeling of joy.
(45:56):
But if you just stand in acorner and look around, um, it's
really not that hard to see.
How many people might be sortof, um, either externally or
internally withdrawing fromexperiences like that, which I
think then we can extrapolateinto like the educational
experience.
Um, so my, my push and my ask isfor educators to like, yes, find
(46:19):
the joy, but first, seek outways to help kids belong in
schools through authenticconnection.
Um, and if I back it up evenmore, I would say.
Adults showing deep, realcuriosity, sometimes longer than
(46:39):
they feel comfortable doing.
So I'm gonna ask why, why, why,why, why?
You're telling me this storyright now and I'm gonna love
every minute of it, even if I'mbusy.
Um, can back up, can, can, um,be like the driveway into
belongingness for a lot of kids.
I, I don't think we have to talkabout, we, we don't have to
diagnose kids with things likeavoidant attachment or
(47:00):
attachment issues.
If we as a system are actuallypouring into helping them
belong, um, you know, it doublesthe burden on kids.
So that's sort of the one thingI, I wish and ask for.
And I think, going back to howyou introed me, which I really
appreciated, like that is athrough line, both as a kid and.
(47:20):
Even as, someone balding withgray hair as I go to school is
like, if you had just taken 30extra seconds, then that kid
might not have just withdrawn or
Dr (47:33):
Yeah.
Max Weinberg (47:33):
um, you know, gotten really upset.
Dr (47:38):
I think that's a really powerful, thing to ask, and I
think it's really important forpeople to remember like, we're
the adults in the situation andwe should be holding the
ownership.
And to often that ownership getstransferred to the students or
(47:58):
the children
Max Weinberg (47:59):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (47:59):
and, and it shouldn't be.
So I think.
I'm gonna even ask you to take apause, right?
When you feel like you're gonnabe pushing some blame onto a
child, and is that a bias comingup before you, know, act on it?
Because sometimes that is, itmay be an untapped recognition
of bias, you
Max Weinberg (48:19):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (48:20):
as I've said many times, y'all, bias is a part of human
nature.
Max Weinberg (48:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (48:24):
what you do with when you start to recognize it that you
know, will really make all thedifference.
Max Weinberg (48:30):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (48:31):
Um, well thank you Max for joining
Max Weinberg (48:34):
Thank you Dr.
Ine.
Dr (48:36):
Listeners, I'll put a link, uh, to Belonging Education in
the show notes so you can checkit out and check out Max's
service.
And eventually, when his bookcomes out, uh, you can
Max Weinberg (48:46):
Looking for July 26th from, from Rutledge?
Dr (48:49):
Okay.
Max Weinberg (48:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr (48:50):
Less than a year away.
Max Weinberg (48:52):
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr (48:53):
is so
Max Weinberg (48:54):
Thank you.
Dr (48:55):
Thank you all for listening again today.
Um, go ahead and check out theshow notes.
Remember to like, share andsubscribe and remember to use
your voice today.
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