Equity Under Fire: Why We Can’t Stay Silent

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In this powerful episode of The Equity Hour, Dr. Tami Dean is joined by Dr. Shelly Jones Holt, founder and CEO of Leadership Legacy, for a courageous conversation that reframes what equity means in education, leadership, and society. They dive deep into neurodiversity, the myth of meritocracy, the impact of epigenetic trauma, and why authentic leadership requires discomfort.

Together, they unpack:

• The roots of equity as a people-centered movement
• How epigenetics and historical trauma affect generational outcomes
• Why poor white communities must be included in the equity conversation
• How educators and leaders can navigate discomfort to push for liberation
• The power of family leadership and how bias starts at home
• Neurodiverse brilliance and shifting social norms in the workplace

This episode is both unflinching and hopeful—offering real-world insights for school leaders, DEI professionals, educators, and anyone working toward systemic change.

🔗 Connect with Dr. Shelly
Website: http://www.leadershiplegacyconsulting.com/
Leadership Legacy Consulting

💬 Share your thoughts using #TheEquityHour #LeadershipLiberation #EquityInAction

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Episode Transcript

Dr (00:03):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Equity
Hour with me, your host, Dr.
Tami Dean.
I am super excited to, ofcourse, introduce our guest this
week.
We have with us Dr.
Shelly Jones Holtz, and she isthe founder and CEO of
Leadership Legacy.
Dr.

(00:23):
Shelly is dedicated to fosteringequity and inclusion in
education.
Her goal is to support andempower all students, families,
and educators by creatingenvironments where everyone
feels valued and respected.
Yes, she strives to break downbarriers and ensure that every
individual has an opportunity tothrive.

(00:43):
So welcome Dr.
Shelly.

Dr. Shelly (00:46):
Thank you so much Dr.
Tami.
I am so glad to be here.
I, I loved our initialconversation.
And I'm really excited to seewhat we're gonna come up with
and put out to the world in thishour.
It's, it, it's an awesome timeto be courageous leader, focused
on all people getting what theyneed, when they need it, and the
way they need it.
Delivered

Dr (01:07):
Oh, absolutely.
And I think that's so important,just even to start off the fact
like all people, because I thinksometimes the narrative with
equity and this work getsshifted that we're only talking
about a very small subset ofpeople, but that's not the truth
at all.

Dr. Shelly (01:26):
Not at all.
And that, and I think thatthat's part of the misnomer and,
you know, uh, the propagandathat folks are playing with.
I don't deal in propaganda.
Let's deal in facts.
And the truth of the matter iseverybody hasn't always gotten
what they need to be successfulbecause we need different things
to be successful, all of us ashuman beings.

(01:47):
And sometimes it's because ofour gender.
Sometimes it's because of amedical status.
Sometimes it's because of ouridentity and the way the world
sees us.
But whatever the reason we inAmerica have been founded and,
and we believe a whole in thisidea that everybody should have

(02:07):
an opportunity.
That's what this country wasfounded upon.

Dr (02:10):
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly (02:11):
as we've been progressing, there's been a lot
of movement.
ensuring that we correct some ofthe systemic harms that have led
to people not being able to getthese things.
And right now, we're in a timewhere that is being tested and
we're, have to see, as asociety, are we gonna pass this
test or are we gonna let ourancestors down and not move this

(02:34):
work forward?
And it's not gonna be easy, butit needs to be done.

Dr (02:37):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I wanna come back to somethingyou said there in just in just a
minute, but I wanna start, um, Ialways ask my guests to tell a
little bit like this.
I know the short version becauseI know mine is long.
I know yours is long.
Um, how did you first getstarted?
Like what was your like equityjourney and path?
Because I always think peoplethink it's like a one and done

(02:59):
or it's like a quick thing, butreally it is a marathon if we're
going to use that analogy.
And there's always something tolearn.
There's always someone toconnect with, and so share a
little bit about your journey tothis work, if you don't mind.

Dr. Shelly (03:16):
My journey.
Like most it, it's convoluted,but I will say it is based in
this idea of ensuring that weput people first, and that's
always been at the core of who Iam, is that we put people and
their needs first.
And I remember my first, myfirst really big recollection
that there were definitely someinequities was when I was a

(03:40):
teenager and I had to, I learnedand then I had to go, or I
figured out, I should say, orwas told, I don't know what an
OB GYN was and what this allentailed.
And that was a thing for me.
I'm like, they're gonna do what?
Where?
Huh?
Like, I was trying to wrap mymind around it.
And when I finally did, I waslike, okay, well if I have to do

(04:00):
this, like if this is a thingYeah.
has to be done, I would like togo in and talk with a woman who
looks like me.
Yeah.
and so I'm in Oakland,California.
At the time I was going toBerkeley, um, and literally in
all of Oakland, I couldn't find,not Alameda, all this whole

(04:22):
Northern California area.
I couldn't find one blackO-B-G-Y-N.
There was one black nursepractitioner, Kaiser.
And I literally went and satoutside of her office to beg her
to take me onto her roster.
Oh my gosh.
ma'am, I don't know what this isgonna entail.
Like literally, but I need totalk to somebody that looks like

(04:44):
me.
And I, and she was so like,taken aback that I was like,
good.
Literally just stalking outbecause I'm like, this is not a
thing that is normal in my mind.
Like, remember, Yeah.
16, 17, 18-year-old brain going,now you're gonna have to put
something where and look at whyand how.
And so that was my first realidea that, wait a minute, why

(05:07):
can't I find everybody else canfind somebody to go to that
looks like Yeah.
of my Asian friends could findsomebody.
Remember I'm at Berkeley.
Um, you know, my white friendscould find folks.
And when I would talk to themabout it, they were like, wait a
minute, nobody like to the,where it became a thing in the
dorms, like everybodyeverybody's trying to look.
Yeah.
We're all gonna look.
And we were like, oh my gosh,there's nobody.

(05:29):
And so that was one of my firstlike entrances into, well wait a
minute, we all don't get to doand receive the same services.
Hmm.
seeing, um, I became a healtheducator at Berkeley, and seeing
the way that different peoplewere impacted by different
sexually transmitted diseases.

(05:49):
And I was like, whoa, this isnot hitting everybody in the
same way.
The situations are not the same.
And you know, of course, I havefurther back history and for
forward history, but I thinkthose were probably two of the
most significant moments wasrealizing that going into the
medical field, um, there wasn'tpeople that looked like us.

(06:11):
So I initially was going tobecome a medical doctor.
And then I realized I couldn'tstand the side of fit.
And that was something I just, Iwas like, oh, so yeah, this,
this is, you don't want me to dothat?
I, Like, maybe not.
Maybe not.
know, cringing at the side, atthe thought of touching you.
Like, that's not gonna work.
Swear.

(06:31):
so I went in, right.
I really wanna, but.
Like that's a fluid.
Mm.
I'm not sure.
Yeah.
Right.
You don't want me to do that.
So I ended up becoming aneducator and then a leader in
the education field because Ifigured if I can't help people
directly with, you know, the,the Mm-hmm.

(06:52):
I can at least help build andraise and teach the future
doctors of the world andensuring that more young people
who look like me were able to goget into medical school and
become practitioners in thisfield.
Um, and so that's part of myequity journey, but I will say
it had to do with not being ableto get the services that were so

(07:13):
readily available to my peersand trying to do something about
that,

Dr (07:18):
Yeah, and I think that that's such a good point because
if we think about then whoinfluences, how do we respond?
To people, right?
Or what research gets funded orRight.
How we understand the nuance ofwho's more susceptible, like
back to the diseases you weretalking about, Yes, If we don't

(07:41):
have diversity in those spaces,then we're not gonna get the
diversity of solution either,right?

Dr. Shelly (07:50):
And well, and also recognizing that in that
diversity of solution, whatworks for some people does not
work for other people.
And sometimes those differencesfall along racial lines.
And usually when it falls alongracial lines or um, or
nationality lines, don't get anunbiased approach here in

(08:12):
America.
Mm-hmm.
the pro is one of the biggestproblems, is that we need an
unbiased approach to things likeeducation, like medic medicine
and other, public service andpublic health fields, because we
are different.
Yes, we all may bleed red, butthe, the contents and the makeup
and the genetic, um, uh, impact.

(08:34):
Or the genetic genetics that Ihave are different from anyone
else.
that is not just our raciallines.
That's on an individual level.
When you start looking at sympdifferent symptomatic diseases
and different ways that diseaseshave hit people, when you start
talking about things likeepigenetics with ma, which many
people are not as familiar with,and how the trauma that that

(08:57):
hits people can impact your DNAand therefore travel from mother
to child.
And when we think about theimpact of epigenetics, if it
only takes one generation toshift your DN DNA as it did with
survivors of the Holocaust,imagine what's happened with
those who have survived theAmerican enslavement.

(09:19):
That was, you know, foundationalto this country.
One generation with our Jewishbrethren, we saw genetic impacts
that lessen their ability tohandle stress and trauma.
What do you think happens after400 years and 25 or 30
generations?
Right.
the, the like, the idea thatyes, we are all human beings and

(09:43):
we have, we have the right tohave opportunities is a very,
uh, basic one.
It's one that most people say,yeah, if you work hard, you, you
should have the opportunities,but the reality of what that
actually means and looks like inpractice and what that means for
having to look at your practicedifferently as a teacher.

(10:04):
where I decided to go into, Ihad to teach my kids
differently.
I had kids that came in thatspoke different languages.
Some kids that came in that had,um, learning differences, some
kids that had familial traumaand weren't eating in the
morning or didn't have, youknow, clean clothes.
And, you know, these basicnecessities and those, every one
of those types of children aregoing to learn differently.

(10:26):
It makes sense that they wouldalso need differences in other
things going all the way to themedical field and the workplace.
And if we are abandoning ormisunderstanding or
misinterpreting this idea ofequity being, getting people
what they need, we become partof the problem.
And so Yeah.
just glad that we're continuingthis conversation even amidst

(10:48):
some of the pushback that it'sgetting.
But let's be honest, uh,progress.
Progress has always gottenpushback.
Let's

Dr (10:55):
I was like, this is not new.
I keep saying this to people, Iwas like, look, this is not new.
It may be a little more in ourface for those of us that did
not grow up in the civil rightsera.
Right.
Um, but it was all ineverybody's faces for quite some
time.
Right.
This pushback is not new.
It maybe went under, I don'teven wanna say under the radar,

(11:17):
'cause I don't even really thinkit was, no, it wasn't as in your
face.

Dr. Shelly (11:21):
Yeah.
believe that it was there.
I think we really, and I, and Ican confess to this too, like I
want in my heart to believe thatwe are farther ahead than the
civil rights era.
And I think that right now it'sreminded us honey ain't much
changed.
And we were, I think we had abelief that we, it had, Hmm.

(11:41):
it had Yeah.
it.

Dr (11:43):
Yeah.
I, I have so many thoughts rightnow, like, one of them being
right, like we, there was thisidea that we were in this
post-racial society because weelected Barack Obama, right?
Um, that answer is no.
All of this is actually aresponse to the fact that we did

(12:06):
elect Barack Obama because it'sdisrupting the privilege status
that people have become soaccustomed to, and the systems
that they feel like that theydon't even always realize,
right?
Support them in ways that don'tsupport others.
So yes.
two things that come to mind.

(12:26):
One, when we're thinking aboutgroups of people, I think the
challenge, especially when wethink about, well, I'm just
gonna stick with educators forright now, but really with any
group, is we think aboutcultural competence.
So it's very easy to be like,oh, I am like this.
All students that look like mehave had the same experience, or

(12:49):
I have ex-friend and this is myunderstanding of a particular
group.
And so now I, project, for lackof a better word, my
understanding onto others thatmay, I may come across.
But I think one of the thingsthat you said that was really
important is right, like withinthis broader umbrella, there is

(13:10):
individuality for everyone.
And if we focus on theindividual and supporting what
each individual needs, thenwe're all gonna come out ahead.
So like put your assumptionassumptions aside, right?

Dr. Shelly (13:27):
I mean, well, and start focusing on people, uh,
and their needs as not being acrutch or a problem, but as
being actually the solution.
I've, Yes.
had the pleasure of being ableto, run very large departments,
school districts, organizations,and to support some amazing

(13:47):
executive leaders.
And I think one of the biggestshifts in mindset that
successful executives versusunsuccessful executives have is
that they see those differencesin needs and, and, and their
abilities to function andoperate in the gifts that people
bring as assets versus that needto be cultivated and built and

(14:13):
nurtured versus deficits thatneed to be handled or put away
or set aside.
Hmm.
I mean, we are in an era rightnow where a lot of our, um,
young people, and well, I'll saypeople of all ages who are
blessed with autism are all of asudden now in a space of place
where we can acknowledge thatthere are many people with

(14:34):
autism that are absolutelybrilliant.
Oh yes.
because they may not have thesame social, the social prowess,
if you will, to be able tonavigate some of these faces in
certain ways as we expect themto, doesn't mean that what they
bring to the table isn'textremely valuable and
necessary.

(14:55):
And so we're gonna have to workthrough some of those social
norms, those quirks, thosethings that, you know, people do
that are different.
And I think it's, we're seeingthis, especially in the AI era
and in the technology era thatwe're in, where we're saying,
Hey, you might not have the,social skills or the, and I'm
being very, um.

(15:15):
very stereotypical, simplybecause that's what my son who
is blessed with autism, histhing is the social skills.
So that's what I'm most familiarwith, but I wanna Yeah.
clear that it's an entirespectrum and there are all kinds
of different, I call them quirksbecause that's what I see them
as is they'll have, quirks andticks and challenges that we
have to work through that makethem a bit different, that make

(15:37):
interacting with these youngpeople, um, a little bit more of
a task on the part of Yeah.
that's interacting.
Like, huh, I gotta figure outwhat's going on here.
But in the end, when you look atthe benefit, because of the,
they think and operate sodifferently from the rest of us,
that's exactly what we need tosolve.
Some of the complex problemsCool.

(15:58):
to face or that we are facing.
And I think we're seeing an eraright now where people are not
sure how to deal with ourneurodiverse population, but
they're recognizing like, but weneed to, because you know that,
that that person over therethat, may have all the social
quirks, knows how to work somethings with computers that, most
of us may not even have

Dr (16:20):
Yeah.

Dr. Shelly (16:20):
the synapses or the patients, if you will, to deal
with.
But we're also seeing thatthere's an ugly side to this
that we have, that we have tocurtail in what we're seeing
that's happening next to ourgovernment.
Um, and that we know Elon Muskis definitely on the spectrum,
but it can also go to a veryshadowy side.
And so there's just so much thatright now when this equity

(16:41):
movement, we need to process andunderstand as a people that we
can't throw people away ordismiss them or, you know, toss
them aside because they aredifferent.
And that's something thatAmerica has been doing for a
long time.
I mean, you, you Oh yeah.
the stories Well, who would getpregnant and we would throw
them, to these Catholicwhatevers, you

Dr (17:03):
we go hide them away.
Right?

Dr. Shelly (17:05):
Like, them away

Dr (17:06):
or shame them, but not the, I mean, they didn't do that by
themselves.
Like the, they needed some help,right?
Like, but this idea, I, I, wegotta fix, I.
Fix.
And I'm doing air quotes rightnow, y'all.
'cause you can't see me.
doing right Right?
people.
fix people.
We don't need to fix people.

(17:26):
We, we need to.
not people Yes.
problems.
And to be quite frank, we allhave our own individual quirks
and nuances.
Right?
And I mean also, who says, whosays that this is the way we
need to move through the world,right?
When we think about who haspower in setting social norms,

(17:51):
right?
And what those expectations are,who has that power?
So how are we to say that whatsomeone else is doing is quote
unquote wrong?
I mean, it's not wrong.
It's part of the diversity ofhumanity.

Dr. Shelly (18:07):
Yes.
But it's also a, uh, I meanthere, think that sometimes when
those differences fall alongcultural

Dr (18:13):
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly (18:14):
we struggle.
And, and what it, what you justsaid made me think of, um, I am
falling in love with this younglady, Jasmine Crockett, who is
just showing out like no other.

Dr (18:26):
Yes.

Dr. Shelly (18:26):
my oldest son is in law school right now at
University of Alabama.
Right.
And we have these wonderfulconversations and you know about
a.
I, uh, we got on the phone andshe had just done something,
something that she had just toldsomebody about themselves in the
best ways that black womenalways do.
Right.
I'm just so excited I'm watchingoff you.

(18:46):
I'm like, go ahead baby.
Just, just,

Dr (18:48):
Yes.

Dr. Shelly (18:49):
I mean, like, I, you make me wanna come to Texas and
vote wherever you are just tomake sure that you could
continue to do what you're doing

Dr (18:56):
Right, right.

Dr. Shelly (18:56):
she is a just, she's disrupting the system.
Well, he and I had a veryinteresting conversation and
he's like, mom, like, one of afew of her professors that she
had in law school are alsoprofessors at University of
Alabama now and are speakingabout her.
And, um, said, well, mom,they're saying that, you know,
we need to not be like her.

(19:18):
And I'm like, well, help meunderstand.
He is like inside the legalfield, they're very, critical of
her and saying that if you wannabe heard and you wanna be,
effective, you need not be likeher.
And my initial thought was, holdup, hold up.
Because she's operatingauthentically as who she

Dr (19:35):
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly (19:35):
and we are a different kind of people as
African Americans, and I'msaying that's different from
Africans that are in America.
That's different from people whohave more of the vanilla
persuasion in America and havebeen able to operate as the
privilege of white like this.
She's operating in her trueself.

Dr (19:54):
Yeah.

Dr. Shelly (19:55):
is an educated woman, but she's also one who's
not going to sit here and playthese little games that you all
like to pay play to maintainpower.
She is speaking her truths andspeaking truth to power.
She's accurate, unfortunatelyfor them.
She's often right and that's,you know, messing with folks
right now because it's like,well, yeah, she's right, but

(20:15):
she's not saying it nicely.
I'm But whoa, whoa.
Hold up.
I'm gonna need you to, uh, like,I'm gonna need us to roll back
yeah.
idea, and I'm going into thisidea of the social norms.
This idea of being nice andbeing, polite or whatever that
is that we wanna say.
Let's be honest, that has notworked very well.
Polite people in history havenot often made pain and created

(20:39):
difference.
And, you know, and, and he saidmore than just polite.
I, I'm, I'm

Dr (20:44):
Well, yeah, that's that.
Like well behaved women rarelymake history, right.
But again, polite.
Polite is code for silence.
Like, so she's like navigatingtwo areas, right?
As a woman, right?
And then as a black woman,right?
In a, in, in a, in a place whereshe can have her voice.

(21:04):
And that makes people souncomfortable.
It, it really does.
Like, or she asks a question andit's a valid question, I mean.
I'm sure you've experiencedthis.
I've experienced this.
Someone's like, well, I wouldlike you to use your voice for
positive instead of, you know,pushing back.
I was like, it's a question.
Asking a question isn'tinherently negative, but if you

(21:30):
are uncomfortable with me askingthe question, that means I've
probably hit on some truth thatyou don't want to reveal.

Dr. Shelly (21:39):
and I think that we need to distinguish.
I love the fact that you usedthe word uncomfortable because
you're uncomfortable with it.
It does not mean you are unsafeand therefore need to be on the
defensive

Dr (21:49):
Yes.

Dr. Shelly (21:50):
because you get uncomfortable you may not know
the answer to the question, youmay not, you know, like what
that question is implyingbecause it's something that you
may not want to face.
It's something that iscontradictory to who you believe
you are.
of this can be true and you canstill be uncomfortable and be

(22:10):
safe in the space.
And that there's a differencethough.
And we have misconstrued lack ofsafety for lack of comfort, and
that has caused some huge issuesin our society Yeah.
when we are unsafe, we feel likewe need profe protection.
Somebody needs to come and saveus if we're unsafe.
If you're uncomfortable, thatmeans you need to put your big

(22:31):
girl panties on or your big boypan pants on Yeah.
with whatever is in front ofyou, even if you may be unsure
how or what the result is goingto be.
The those two are very differentsituations and saving people
from uncomfortable situations iswhat has gotten us this far in
this mess that we're in.

(22:52):
We're saving people from havingto answer the hard questions.
Let's answer something like,what if epigenetic trauma has
had an impact on black bodiesand Jewish bodies?
How is that same trauma ofbeating, raping, lynching people
for generations, what has thatdone to your DNA?
What has that done to yourability to feel empathy?

(23:14):
What has that done to yourability to see the world through
different perspectives?
could that be an issue that isnot something for the
minoritized to deal with?
That is something for the largerpopulation, the dominant group
to deal with.
If it's changed my ancestry,what's to say that it hasn't
changed yours?

(23:36):
Yeah.
are uncomfortable topics andconversations for folks.
Whereas when I say have theepigenetic conversation about
what's happened to people whohave been harmed, we can have
that conversation.
Even though it's a littleuncomfortable, folks can Yeah.
in it.
When we start talking about thepeople who have done the harm
and whether or not,'cause thequestion I ask is, if you have

(23:56):
this kind of history, if youhave this kind of, of DNA in
your body.
Are you fit to lead and are youfit to lead people who you, you
or your ancestry havetraditionally seen as less than
human?
Mm-hmm.
should you be doing before youstep into a position of
leadership, especially ofdiverse communities?

(24:18):
See, these are conversationsagain, they make the power
structure very uncomfortable,but they're not unsafe.
You Yeah.
not like the answer.
You got to give.

Dr (24:29):
Yes, yes and no.
A hundred percent and.
I think a way for people thatare new to the work or are
trying to think about how thisapplies to them in
uncomfortableness is wheregrowth happens.
If you aren't uncomfortable,you're not growing.
So if you start a new workoutregimen, Here we go.

(24:52):
right.
to, I admit.
I need to.
I'm, I'm in that space.
Girl, you are speaking mylanguage.
I started Pilates in Februaryand I am in love.
Okay.
So yes.
So I'll just use myself, right?
Like I'm a hundred days into myPilates journey.
There are some things that I cando pretty well, but then they
make some small tweak or I learnsome small new thing and it's

(25:13):
uncomfortable.
My muscles are uncomfortable,but my, the change happens when
I push through the uncomfort.
To get to the next level, and Ihave to continue when the next
uncomfortable moment or feelingcomes continue to push forward.

(25:34):
And I think that is how you canthink about this work when a
moment of uncomfortablenesscomes up, hold on, right?
Like and push through and you'regonna learn something, you're
gonna move to the next, youknow, level, for lack of a
better word.
That's where this work is ajourney, right?

(25:57):
I've been doing this for 25years and I won't say the
conversations make meuncomfortable anymore, but I am
willing to, when I learnsomething or something is
brought up to me that I didn'tknow, I didn't know, Yes.
you can't know everything,right?

Dr. Shelly (26:14):
Dr.
Tami, you are speaking truth tolife in every way.
I mean, um, I didn't really talktoo much about this, but my, my
main job now is as an executiveleadership coach, and Yeah.
the things I say at LeadershipLegacy Consulting, we do the
journey deliberation, which iswhat we say is that this journey
that you are on to liberation,which is a higher level, a

(26:37):
deeper level of freedom, Yeah.
is one thing that's just takingthe shackles off of your body.
And what's physically Iimpacting you?
Oftentimes, or the legal, uh,pieces, the politics, but
liberation is freedom of themind.
Hmm.
is finally free, you're in awhole nother level.
And one of the things that wesay in our work is that the

(26:59):
courageous leadership that youseek and courageous leadership,
which is our signature program,is, um, courageous means to push
through fear.
Leadership being to serve.
You have to push through fear ifyou are going to be of service
to others, and the courageousleadership you seek is on the
other side of the discomfort youcovet and this and, and so, or

(27:21):
the comfort you covet.

Dr (27:22):
Yeah.

Dr. Shelly (27:23):
have to push forward through that discomfort.
I'm gonna say that one more timethe courageous leadership you
seek is on the other side of thecomfort you covet..
When we stop coveting, comfortand embrace at the experience of
discomfort.
'cause oftentimes, GlennSingleton speaks about this in
his agreements for courageousconversations about race, that

(27:45):
if we can truly get to a placewhere we experience discomfort,
I mean, and let's be honest, wedon't like to be uncomfortable.

Dr (27:52):
No.

Dr. Shelly (27:53):
we have fans, we have, you know, water bottles,
we have cushy seats, we do allkinds of things so that we are
not uncomfortable in any way,shape, or form.
Right?
But it's through the discomfortthat the growth happens.
It's through the discomfort thatyou realize what you're really
capable of.

Dr (28:11):
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly (28:12):
the discomfort that you realize what you fear was
gonna break, you actually helpedmake you like, these are the
things that you realize.
And if you are always sittinghere trying to push back the
discomfort.
And that's one of thechallenges, and I'm just gonna
say it out loud, it's one of thechallenges of Eurocentric
culture is that Eurocentriccultures have traditionally.

(28:33):
uh, uh, celebrated just success,but not necessarily the journey
or the

Dr (28:38):
Mm.

Dr. Shelly (28:39):
that success.
They celebrate what it is that,the image that you're supposed
to project, but not necessarilyall the struggles that created
that image.
Whereas many collectivistcultures, whereas African
American culture is more of acollectivist culture, we
actually celebrate the struggle.
We wanna put the issue in themiddle of the room and have
everybody talk about it.
Yeah.

(28:59):
wanna see like all the uglysides.
'cause that's where we know wecan see the growth.
Like, oh, you went through that,that, that, and you still, okay,
that's inspirational.
Whereas oftentimes inEurocentric culture, it's, well,
don't tell'em the struggle, thestruggle.
Don't tell'em how hard it wasjust so that you did it right
and you overcame.
That's where that image ofsuccess, uh, versus the journey

(29:22):
to success.
At which do you value more?
We tend to value the journey.
other people tend to value theimage or the power that comes
with it.
And so this discomfort piecethat we're hitting on is a big
issue in the equity worldbecause when everybody is
getting what they need, when youhave to do something different

(29:42):
for somebody else, if yourmindset isn't in a place where
you're saying, I'm willing todo, like if Dr.
Tami needs something and I gottado something different so Dr.
Tami can be successful, thenI'm, I'm actually happy to do
that.
But if I feel like, well, I haveto do something so I'm losing
out so that Dr.
Tami can win, then the mindsetbecause, well, that's not Dr.

(30:03):
Tami's issue.
She gotta deal with that versusit is our issue to be
collectively successful, even atsomething like a podcast, we
have to make sure we are meetingeach other's needs.
If that doesn't happen, then itdoesn't become an enjoyable and
productive experience.
The same thing applies, I wouldargue, in every situation where

(30:24):
you have more than one persontrying to accomplish a task,

Dr (30:27):
Yeah.

Dr. Shelly (30:28):
have to be able to meet one another's needs, even
if that means it's gonna take alittle bit of extra effort on
your part to make sure the nextperson has what they need.
If you see that as a deficit anda problem versus part of the
process and the journey tosuccess, therein lies the
difference.

Dr (30:45):
Yeah.

Dr. Shelly (30:45):
see it as a problem something you're taking away
from me, I'm less likely to doit.
But Yeah, it as an enhancementto, if I put, provide this for
Dr.
Tami, this is what it'll bringback for me, and even if it
doesn't bring anything back forme, it's gonna make Dr.
Tami successful, which meansthat we are successful.
Right?
That's a different mindset.

(31:07):
think we have to talk about thediscomfort sometimes that exists
in ensuring that somebody elsegets something, even if you get
nothing from it, other than tomake sure that they're okay.

Dr (31:18):
yeah.
Yeah.
I have, I know I have two.
Two big thoughts, two bigthoughts right now.
Um, one is it goes beyond, I'mgonna call it lip service of
valuing diversity of thought,because you see it time and time
again.
I have definitely experiencedit.
They're like, oh, two heads arebetter than one.

(31:40):
We're all better together.
But not really, because when youexercise your individuality, it
is not well received.
And then it, yeah, and it alsomakes me think of like the
process versus the end result.
When we think about, back whenyou were originally talking

(32:03):
about what you brought toequity, my mind keeps centering
around like this myth ofmeritocracy that exists in the
United States, right?
Work hard.
Here is your result.
And it makes it seem like lotsof people work hard every day.
Like to be honest, they worktheir ass off in a variety of
ways, right?

(32:25):
But when we don't have access tothe same opportunities, the same
systems to be valued for who weare and what we bring to the
table as individuals, like Icould go on and on and on,
right?
When all of those things arenots coming back to how we need
to give people different thingsto help them be successful,

(32:47):
right?
And I think that's the piece.
By looking at individuals andhelping everyone grow, it does
not take away from your successor take away from your
opportunity, but it is thecollective that is the
challenge.
Oh,

Dr. Shelly (33:04):
It's, it's the collective and it's the
realizing that if I put forththis effort and let, and, in
some cultures things are verytransactional.
do this for you, you're gonna dothis for me.
You're set, your culture is verytransactional.
We're seeing that right now withour president.
Right.
You know, traveling all over theworld doing, God knows what I,

(33:25):
I'm not even gonna try to getinto Right.
it's a very transactional pieceMm-hmm.
is happening.
And this belief that the worldoperates on these transactions,
and that is also along withmeritocracy, is a myth.
The world does not necessarilyoperate on pure transactions.
When you look at countries thathave been able to successfully

(33:48):
do some things, and I'm notsaying that any, I I, I
shuttered the, any country outloud.
'cause literally when I say,yeah, look at China, look at
Japan, look at, or people willpoint out all the negative
things.
I'm not saying that there is anysociety on the planet that is
ever so perfect and, and Right.
its problems.
There are all kinds of problemsin all kinds of society, America

(34:09):
included.

Dr (34:10):
Yeah.

Dr. Shelly (34:11):
my point is that there are some cultures that
have figured out that, you know,if we work better together, if
we work harder together.
Then we can be able to pushforward.
And I'm not saying everythinghas to be done together.
What I am saying though is thatwhen you look at, going back to
what I was saying around JasmineCrockett Mm-hmm.
able to show up authenticallywhen we look at some times, um,

(34:34):
what I started to do after myson told me that at, at the
university, they werediscouraging them from being
more like Jasmine Crockett,which to me was, I was just
totally taken aback from'em.
And I'm like, why would they beteaching young people to not
speak up when they see somethingwrong?
Like, Yeah.
does that Right?
And I started to really thinkabout the fact that it's not

(34:58):
always what she is saying that'sbothering people.
It's the fact that one, she issaying it and it's the fact that
two, they're not sure how tointeract with somebody who is
putting it out there in thatway.
Yeah.
not and and is unapologeticallyand unabashedly moving forward
in, you know, her critique ofwhat's happening.

(35:20):
And when you are not, and I hateto say this, but there's a
certain intelligence factor aswell when you have not had to
work as hard to get to a certainplace when you have not had to
be as educated to be in the samespace.
When you come up against someonelike that when your path has not
been Yeah, has been filled withhaving to know and do some of

(35:42):
the things that she had to knowand be able to do, that woman is
brilliant.
And that yeah.
with people intelligence.
And it goes back to theneurodiversity piece.

Dr (35:50):
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly (35:51):
from people that pe that that are not expected to be
intelligent is messing with thiscountry in a way like no other.
when we look at the fact thatblack women are the most
educated demographic in theUnited States of America right
now and have been for some time.
That doesn't fit the mammynarrative that she's supposed to

(36:12):
be at home.
Suckle having babies suckle onher and you know, which from
Yeah.
going back to the civil rightsera,'cause I think we forget the
people from the civil rights eraare still with us.
They're not gone,

Dr (36:25):
Yeah.
It wasn't that long ago.

Dr. Shelly (36:27):
It was not that long ago.
Right.
And so these are the same peoplewho would look at a Jasmine
Crockett and think that she wassupposed to be somebody's wet
nurse.
She's supposed to be somebody'smaid.
She's not supposed to be sittingup in Congress telling people
about themselves.
That's where we gotta figure outhow.
Yes, we have people in oursociety that need, need to get

(36:48):
what they need, when they needit, in the way they need it
delivered, which is, my internaldefinition of equity, the one I
work with, um, with my clientsand people.
When we look at what, who needswhat in our society, we don't
think of people who are from thedominant culture needing to have
equity.
you look at who needs somethingin order to get into a battle of

(37:10):
wits with a Jasmine Crockett,you got people like Marjorie Te
Taylor Greene, who are literallyunarmed.
Like you don't have the level ofintelligence to be able to
compete with somebody like that.
And yet you're in the same spaceand you've been told all these
things and you don't understandthis idea of how to work
together.
And where I'm going with this isthat yes, we need equity for our

(37:32):
minoritized populations thathave not had an opportunity to
achieve levels of success.
But something we don't oftentalk about is there also needs
to be an equity movement for ourwhite brothers and sisters who
have not been allowed, forcedYeah.
to operate, haven't been forcedto have to be educated, haven't
been forced to have to be thebest in a space in order to move

(37:56):
forward.
They've been, they've been movedin other ways that now when you
get inside of a space withsomeone who has had a different
journey.
To the level of liberation thatshe has reached and you're
trying to compete with that.
You're literally unarmed andYeah.
that what we're not reallytalking about is we're moving
more towards that.

(38:17):
More people who have been givenwhat I call the white man hand
up, you know, they just keepgetting handed up.
They, they tend to fail up likenobody I've ever met.
Right?

Dr (38:26):
Yes.

Dr. Shelly (38:26):
keep doing that, that and defining success as
where you've been, but not thejourney you've taken, not, you
know, the, the, the way thatyou've achieved that, we just
define it as well, you'resuccessful and you're powerful
because you've gotten there.
is where the problem is.
And we think that the peoplethat need the equity and the
opportunity are those that areminoritized, that have had the

(38:48):
education and that's not thecase.

Dr (38:50):
Yeah.

Dr. Shelly (38:50):
now need to go back and rethink how they're being
educated are those that havebeen provided these
opportunities withoutnecessarily earning them in the
ways that others have had to.
And this is gonna cause a riftin our society that we're now
seeing the beginnings of.
And this is what gets meexcited.
'cause I see it and go, oh yeah,yeah, y'all ain't ready for this

(39:12):
one.
No.
for a No.
of Like, no.
the, she's just Well, and we gota OC, Maxine Waters.

Dr (39:21):
right?
We got a AOC.
We got Kamala Harris, right?
And.
They advocate it's servantleadership.
It's what true leadership is,because leaders advocate for
those that they are in place tolead, right?
So, and they think it's aboutthem as a person.
And it is, it is not.
And look, and, and when we thinkabout, I, I think you're hitting

(39:45):
a very, very important, uh,point when we think about equity
in how people are educated.
Because, let's be honest, theelite or well off white
population has consistently,time and time again, benefited
from this privilege of upwardmobility without having to show

(40:08):
the ability to execute andbringing in lower socioeconomic
white.
Persons, they still need equity.
Like I think one of the mostinteresting things about like
rolling back all this equity islike white women in general

(40:28):
specifically are realizing youare part of this journey.
Like if you all think like, I amnot that old, but when I was
born, women could not have theirown credit card.
What?
Right.
Like,

Dr. Shelly (40:42):
and I kid you not like, when, when we look at
that, and, and here's the otherthing, and I know this is going
to, this is gonna strike somechords, but we have not fought
in our society about whitepeople operating at a deficit.

Dr (40:56):
yeah.

Dr. Shelly (40:57):
We, they, they don't like that.
That's something that peoplelike, well, what do you mean?
Like, it's always been this ideathat this is the standard, but
I'm gonna, I, I'm gonna pushback on that and I push back on
it quite hard and I'm saying,well, what makes them the
standard?
Other than that they just said,they were like, even with our
current president, he's walkingaround here, you know, Oh my

(41:17):
god.
because he's saying he's a king.
And then just.

Dr (41:20):
Oh, I don't have to follow a court ruling.
What?

Dr. Shelly (41:25):
It's like, let's see how this, let's see how this all
pans out.
Because you're seeing thesystems that have been created
here in America, stretched in somany ways at the same time, this
is why I say it's a veryexciting time for us.
Two things, John Hope Bryant,who talks a lot about, finance.
He said, like right now, if weas, especially as a minoritized

(41:47):
community, this is going to bethe time period where we can
level the playing field.
And AI is our friend, y'all.
I'm just saying like, you know,we need to be able to come up
with these beautiful ideas,figure out a way to, I don't
know, AI power them, whateverthey call it these days, right?

Dr (42:07):
Yes.

Dr. Shelly (42:07):
to move forward because this is going to be the
largest they, they saying rightnow, still the largest shift in
wealth.
That we're going to see in thiscountry.
And what we're seeing right nowin our politics is the pushback
to that movement.
So there's a Yeah.
to really, you know, double downon this, but, the Obama pointed
out something really, I'm sorry,for President Obama, pointed out

(42:29):
something recently in a speechthat he gave.
I forget where it was, but hepointed out that we've gotta be
careful with how we look at,even the gifts that we receive.
we talk a lot.
There's a talk right now thatTrump gave me a check.
People say, oh, the Covid Trumpgave me a check.
'cause Trump put his name on theactual checks that he handed

(42:51):
Right, But come back to whenObama provided money to get us
out of the recession, whenPresident Joe Biden did, uh, did
give out checks.
Guess what they didn't do?
didn't put their names on.

Dr (43:07):
right.

Dr. Shelly (43:07):
didn't put their names on them because it wasn't
about them.
They are, they, they operatedmore in this servant leadership
mindset that this is abouthelping the American people.
This is about making sure thatwe're able to push through hard
times.
This is not about a politicalstunt to make sure that my name
and me and I and et cetera, andwe're facing an era in

(43:27):
leadership where we're seeingthat, um, even those who are in
these spaces that have notelevated based on merit have,
that have not elevated based on,you know, having earned the
positions and having earnedtheir degrees, having earned
their education.
And, the intelligence isshowing.
Tho those that are in thosespaces are now forced to have to

(43:50):
go in, into, I'm trying to saythis in the nicest way, but
they're having to use, um, lessthan legal means Oh than,
ethical needs yeah.
Yeah.
Forward because they'reliterally running out of
strategy at this point.
Yeah.
point, the strategy is we'rejust gonna take it and, you
know, kind of see what happens.

(44:11):
Yeah, is that this is not goingto end well, not because, um,
it's not effective, but becausewhen we talk about the, least
educated us, of the things thatI faced when I was
superintendent in my district,and it was a hard reality pill
to swallow to the point wherepeople were getting angry at me
for saying it, is that whereastypically people are, are

(44:33):
comfortable, if I say, you know,our African American students,
our special education students,our English learner students,
yeah.
really need our support.
That da da da, my lowestperforming group was not African
American.
My lowest performing demographicwas my low income white
students.
Yeah.
And when I had to say that outloud that we're approaching an

(44:54):
over identification of poorwhite students in our special
education programs because ourteachers were not equipped with
the skills to educate them.
And that's been the typicalmovement is even in education,
is if I can't educate a kid,there's not anything wrong with
my teaching strategies.
It's not that I need to dothings differently, it's that
there's something wrong withthat kid and that kid just can't

(45:16):
learn.
So they need a special place forthem.
Right.
is that when I started to talkabout the fact that in Michigan,
um, based on the 2000, I wannasay it.
Uh, it might be the 2007.
It might be the 2017.
Forgive me for not rememberingmy numbers, but it's a piece of
test results.
What it pointed out was thatMichigan was the worst place in

(45:38):
America to learn to read if youwere black, it was the second
worst place to learn to read ifyou were white.
My point in saying that is thatwe, without literacy, without
being able to read andunderstand, you are at a
disadvantaged off jump.
Off jump.
And we're Yeah.
at third through 11th gradereading scores being the lowest

(46:00):
in the nation in some of theseplaces.
And now you fast forward to themessaging that they're hearing,
they're going, they're lookingfor a beacon of like, somebody
give me some relief, somebodyhelp me.
And part of what I see as afallacy and our equity movement
is, yes, we do need equity forour minoritized populations.
Yes, Yeah, is alive, homophobiais alive.

(46:22):
Yes.
But we also are forgetting thatthere are people who identify as
white who aren't even aware.
Of how much at a disadvantagethey have been placed.
And they're aligning themselvesbased on skin color and based on
yeah.
systems, but not based on whatis actually happening.
And that makes them A-A-A-I-I, Ifeel bad, honestly for'em,

(46:46):
because that makes them a veryeasy and vulnerable target for
people who want to use them.
And then, you know, kind of tossthem aside.
And we're seeing that right nowin Kentucky, what's happened
with the tornado warnings nothaving come out because of
course we have cut all thepeople that were supposed Right.
Therefore, now when the tornadohits and kills 18 people and

(47:09):
y'all going, what happened?
Why didn't anybody tell us?
Because fired people, somebodythat didn't have your best
interest Oh.
heart.
But I mean, I'm just saying whenwe talk about equity.
Yeah, about getting people whatthey need, when they need it,
and the way they need itdelivered.
Part of what we need to do inthis equity movement, and
unfortunately it's a lot ofpeople of color and people that

(47:29):
are allies with people of colorthat are doing this work, but we
cannot forget about our poorwhite folks because they're
being left hung out to dry.
And yes, some of them don't makethe best decisions, but we've
gotta go back again and look atwhy that's happening and how
that puts all of us in a veryvulnerable and dangerous
position.
yeah, I know I've kind of talkedin a big old

Dr (47:49):
no, absolutely.
I feel like we could justcontinue forever because you
know, there's some historicalcontext to when that shift
happened, when the poor whitesjoined the white movement.
So if you don't know.
1865, just Like there was a itup.
Um, as a literacy specialist,I'm gonna encourage you to look
at what's happening withliteracy and how we're kids are
reading less than ever before inschools.

(48:11):
So I want you to look at that.
'cause I feel like we could godown a whole nother road and I
know we're running.
I like, look, we could have liketwo more episodes, Dr.
Shelly, you know, but I knowwe're ready out.

Dr. Shelly (48:22):
need to bring you on my show.
And

Dr (48:23):
Yes.
Let's do it.

Dr. Shelly (48:25):
then, because really like this is, it's so deep when
we talk about the equitymovement.
And I made a statement the otherday in a session and I had to
catch myself.
but I did double down on itafter I said it.
'cause a couple people came upto me afterwards and I said of
the things that we didn't dowell in the equity movement over
the last few years, especiallyas we have seen this uprising,

(48:47):
um, since Mr.
George Floyd was murdered, Yeah.
we didn't, we didn't bring inour poor white folks into the
conversation to talk about theirstruggles.
Instead they felt blamed andshamed for everything Hmm.
going on instead ofunderstanding that this is for
you too.

Dr (49:03):
Yeah,

Dr. Shelly (49:04):
by not doing that, we kind of shot ourselves in the
foot, not realizing one, eventhough we had white fragility
and all these books to tell us,but I don't think we really
realized how fragile.
Our white brothers and sistersare when it comes to this, not
because they're weak, fragiledoes not mean weak folks.

Dr (49:22):
yeah,

Dr. Shelly (49:22):
means that the, that the understandings around this
are so complex that we've gottamanage the emotions as you learn

Dr (49:29):
yeah,

Dr. Shelly (49:29):
there's a lot of emotion that's gonna come as you
start to realize that thissystem that you believed in
actually is not had your bestinterest at heart.
yeah, And that's yeah, hard forfolks that I have plot for this
country.
I've done this for this country,this country, right?
And I get it.
I'm yeah, on that, but I needyou to look deeper.
I need yeah.
Yeah.
a little bit deeper and realize,and when we realized that, um,

(49:52):
and I realized this big timewhen I got to Michigan because
of the auto industry beingthere.
Remember, I'm California, bornand raised.
I got there and I started torealize that people had become
comfortable with not having tolearn because they knew they
could go get a job at the, atthe plant, the factory.
My uncle worked there, my cousinworked there.
I got a job coming to me.
So we've seen this slow decline.

(50:15):
the rigor that's been happeningin our schools around literacy
and around having to perform.
Because they could always, theycould go get a hundred thousand
dollars job, whether just with ahigh school diploma, it didn't
matter what your grades were,but by the time they hit, you
know, whatever age that, youknow, Ford or GM or whomever
would hire them, they wouldbring them on within, three to

(50:36):
five years.
They're making a hundredthousand dollars, got their,
picket fence, their wife, theirkids, or Right.
They're happy.
They're living this and they'rethinking that's gonna continue
forever.
Well, here comes AI and electricvehicles and all of these other
things and it has totallydisrupted this community that
had not had to focus veryheavily on education and now

(50:58):
they need to.
And yeah, yeah, And so yeah,think we did it.
We did ourselves a bit of adisservice.
And that's hard as an equityleader for the last, going on 30
years yeah, yeah.
you doing this work.
That's hard for us to facebecause it hasn't been the focal
point of our work.
But now we're seeing, oh, if wedon't focus on this group, look

(51:20):
what happens.
Like they tend to make decisionsthat are now, so we gotta, like
when we say it is gettingeveryone what they need, when
they need it, and the way theyneed it delivered.
I mean that with every fiber ofmy being, we've gotta focus on
everyone.
Yeah.
if we don't, we will leavepeople behind and those people
may vote outside of even theirown interest and definitely

(51:43):
outside of ours.
And we do not wanna end up inthis space again.

Dr (51:47):
No, no.
And I, um, think we're seeingsome of that, I'm gonna call it
regret, or awareness.
Maybe not regret, but awarenesscoming to light,

Dr. Shelly (51:57):
I think it's followed by regret, though.
I think that yeah, aware, it'slike, Ooh, I actually fell for
that.

Dr (52:03):
yeah.

Dr. Shelly (52:04):
Like, oh, I didn't think that was gonna affect me.
But, I, I think we're seeingthat awakening and I think
you're absolutely on point.
So how do we, in this, this,this moment in time in our
movement, um.
Bring those folks into theconversation.
Bring them into the movement,bring their, their perspective

(52:26):
into what it is we're doing,because at the end, we're all
gonna be better for it.
So, We are, and, and I really dobelieve that the way that we do
that is through focusing on ourfamilies and family leadership.
So one of, one of the thingsthat I did during the pandemic
and, um, some of, one of mygifts, you take those strengths,

(52:47):
one of the, uh, finders and allthat, yeah.
of the gifts that, um, I've,I've been blessed with, they
call me the sage that I, I, whenI did my little thing, they said
that You're a sage.
I didn't know really what thatmeant.
and I was like, what does thatmean?
That sounds very manipulative,but okay.
But what they describe the sageis that the sage is someone who
is so forward thinking.

(53:08):
I, I, I always, I always getthat visionary east.
When I, whenever I do thoseassessments, I try my best.
Um, even if I, you know, don'tnecessarily do it very well at
times, I tend to see the bigpicture.
And that's been a gift that I'vehad.
And they called it the Sagegift.
And so really when, um, whenthings started to take a turn,

(53:28):
right after George Floyd wasmurdered, I was doing sessions
and I started to see adifference in my folks about a
year into the work of doingequity post George Floyd.
that I started to see folks thatbefore would be, kind of
sympathetic, all of a suddengetting like, almost like
racially tired.
They're, they're in racialexhaustion because of how much

(53:49):
they had talked about it.
And they were like, man, this isreally deep, this is really big.
And it goes to speak to thefragility and the ability to
handle as much as, and as deepas this stuff runs.
um, when I noticed that Inoticed it and also in my
clients that I would talk to,like, here are CEOs that have
brought me on as their executivecoach, and I'm having some

(54:10):
serious conversations with themabout very personal matters,
many of which, uh, forced themto deal with the fact that
racism and sexism was not onlyin the homes that they grew up
in, but some of them wererealizing that it was also in
the children they were raising.
was a harsh reality when peopleare Yeah.
they're raw now at home and theycan see and hear and experience

(54:33):
some of their beliefs and ideasof their kids or other people
around them.
And it was almost like a, anawakening like, whoa.
Wait a minute, I didn't thinkthis was actually happening in
my kid.
And that led me to move myleadership work more towards the
family because I even saw it inmy own kids.
And so I'm a firm believer thatif we're gonna make it through
this, the equity work has toshift from workplaces and

(54:55):
schools'cause racism and sexismand these power struggles and
these social norms that we havenor, um, normalized and began to
idolize.
They didn't start at theworkplace or Right.
They started around the dinnertables at home and how we talked
about one another, how we talkedabout, um, people who were
different, how we talked aboutthe relatives and all.

(55:15):
And I, and when people reallystarted to Yeah.
how do you talk about people athome?
And even no matter which home itis, I don't care if it was an
Arabic speaking home, a Jewishhome, a black home, a white
home, a mixed race home, anAsian home, Chinese, Japanese,
Chinese, Korean, it did notmatter.
No matter who I was speaking to,they spoke about how, yeah, we
would talk, like there would bepeople talking about each other

(55:37):
at home.
They would hear their parents orthey talking about relatives.
They would hear, you know, um,the N word or the other, you
know, slurs, et cetera.
I had to even face the fact thateven in my own household, like
my dad, I love my dad very much,but my dad is an old black man,
who was raised by an old blackman from the south, and they
Right.
and some words course.

(55:59):
Of course.
Yeah.
so I'm a firm believer that theequity we seek right now is the
work that we need to do to bringabout equity is at home.
We need to really start focusingon how we're leading our
families with intentionality.
How are we talking about, uh,people very intentionally around
our children?
How are we having conversationsabout one another, about people

(56:22):
who are different?
How are we engaging and focusingon our own family leadership?
'cause right now, everybody's sofocused outside and I know that
the results of your familyleadership show up at the
schoolhouse every day.
I could tell you whose familywas arguing, whose family has
something to eat.
Yeah.
tell you where you went.
Your kids are telling all yourbusiness,

Dr (56:41):
they are.
And we see all the jokes aboutit too.
They're like, right, like allthe projects.
Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Shelly (56:48):
You know, we know we don't, and which means that when
my kids go to school, theirteachers know, you know, kind of
what's Yeah.
in our household.
And it, it, it just led me tobelieve that we have to really
focus on our family leadershipand being very intentional,
being very strategic, being verythoughtful about how we're
raising our kids and showingthem the right ways to talk

(57:11):
about people or not showing themthe right ways to interact with
one another.
Because if we rely on whatthey're seeing right now in the
news or in in the media or onthe video games or anywhere
else, I don't, I don't want mykids emulating any of that.
I want them to be able to lookat that, and that becomes the
topic of our conversation athome when the President of the

(57:33):
United States is literallyspending time instead of
focusing on bringing down thecost of all the things that are
literally killing ourpocketbook.
You are liter, you're, and I'msaying literally something in a
public social media argumentwith a rockstar.

Dr (57:50):
Right.
Yes.

Dr. Shelly (57:52):
I mean, I just, and, and look and, and you're using
words like fool an idiot and ohgosh, like I Yeah.
us to pause for a moment,America, and really look at,
regardless of the politics,regardless if you agree or
disagree, is that what we wantour children emulating and Yeah.

(58:13):
as the way that we're supposedto disagree with one another?
And I argue no.
If we don't want that, then weare gonna have to take control
of that in our own households.
So I'm a firm believer that theequity work now needs to start
shifting towards the home andeverybody really minding your
business, minding your family,making sure that the children

(58:35):
that you are raising are notgoing out here making fools out
of themselves and talking crazyto people or taking advantage of
the education that's beingprovided to them and making sure
that they are learning how toread and think critically and
analyze and, you know, make allof these different critical
thinking decisions that we need'em to make.

(58:55):
We've got to focus there.
And so family leadership, Ithink is one of the biggest
solutions in equity that has notreceived as much attention as it
needs to.

Dr (59:04):
I totally agree with that, and I think we're gonna end with
that today.
Dr.
Shelly, I feel like we couldjust keep on talking for hours,
but it has been such a pleasure.
And listeners, I'm gonna goahead and put a link to Dr.
Shelly's website, so if you'reinterested in any of the things
she has brought up today, youcan get in contact with her.

(59:25):
So look for that in the shownotes.
But Dr.
Shelly, thank you so much forcoming on today.

Dr. Shelly (59:30):
Thank you, Dr.
Tami, for having me and lettingme just speak about something.
I'm, I'm just so passionateabout, um, what I didn't tell
you.
I, I knew, I told you I wascoming off of my uncle's funeral

Dr (59:40):
Yeah.

Dr. Shelly (59:41):
and this morning is just giving me all the revital,
like having that Oh yeah.
this morning with you.
Like, it is it, it is giving meall that I need to move forward
this time of year for educatorsis really hard.
It's also hard for us asconsultants and supporters, and
this morning has just letting mejust speak freely about this has

(01:00:03):
been all the therapy I'veneeded.
So Thank you.
And you.
we talk I do wanna hear morefrom you.
I'm like, I feel like I talked alot, but I needed to get some of
that.

Dr (01:00:12):
Yes.
No.
Yes.
Perfect.

Dr. Shelly (01:00:15):
We got to do this.
We can do this.
We all can do this Thistogether.
So I wanna thank you for thatmoment.
'cause it was, it was therapyfor me this morning.
Um.
Thank you for having me.

Dr (01:00:27):
Thank you.
You know, honestly we talk aboutserving leadership and I feel
like the podcast is part of thatbecause having conversations
with folks like you also fillsmy heart and my spirit around
this work.
And the intention here is to letpeople know like, you are not
alone, right?
Like there are people doing thiswork every day.
They're having these thoughtsand feelings and experiences.

(01:00:47):
And I think the more we shareand talk about our commonalities
and our journey, the bettersuccess we're gonna have around
equity and, and getting what weneed.
So thank you again.

Dr. Shelly (01:01:00):
Thank you.
And, and folks, um, I appreciateeverything that you've done and
you're doing, and pleasecontinue to listen in to Dr.
Tami's podcast, think she's gotsome great things coming for us.

Dr (01:01:10):
Thank you.