August 19, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of The Equity Hour, host Dr. Tami sits down with Jenn Tardy, founder of Jenn Tardy Consulting and author of The Equity Edge, to unpack the realities of bias in hiring and what leaders can do to build truly inclusive workplaces.
With two decades of experience in recruitment and DEI, Jenn brings a clear, actionable perspective on why representation matters, how subtle and underexplored biases derail talent pipelines, and what organizations can do to move from “checking the box” to systemic change.
Key Takeaways:
- Why equity—not just diversity—is the competitive advantage companies need in 2025
- Common but overlooked biases that shape hiring decisions (like “professionalism” and “competitor bias”)
- How to empower recruiters and hiring managers with plain-language tools to spot and mitigate bias
- The difference between “calling out” and “calling in” — and how leaders can create space for accountability without defensiveness
- Why equity is a marathon, not a one-and-done training, and how organizations can sustain momentum despite resistance
Whether you’re a C-suite leader, HR professional, or manager shaping team culture, this episode will give you practical strategies to create equitable systems that attract, hire, and retain top talent.
Resources Mentioned:
- The Equity Edge by Jenn Tardy
- The Platinum Bias Checklist (free resource)
Coaching Discovery Call
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Tami (00:11):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of
The Equity Hour with me, yourhost, Dr.
Tami.
I am so excited this week tobring Jennn Tardy to the
podcast.
Hello, Jenn.
Jenn (00:25):
Well, hello there.
Thank you for having me.
Dr. Tami (00:28):
We are so excited to have you on the podcast.
And of course, today we're gonnabe talking about all things
equity.
And let me tell you a little bitabout Jenn before we hop right
in today.
Jenn Tardy has been on a missionto help employers and job
seekers reach their goals since2004.
Driven by a passion to seeincreasing diversity.
Make sense?
(00:48):
And since, gosh, I love that.
As a recruitment thought leader,she established Jenn Tardy
Consulting, AKA team, JTC toenable employers to find a
track, engage, and hire moreapplicants from historically
underrepresented backgrounds.
Through her hashtag hiringsuccess programs, she has
empowered many organizations totalk openly about.
(01:10):
Underrepresentation, removeinequalities from their hiring
processes and foster moreinclusive work cultures.
Welcome, Jenn.
Jenn (01:21):
I'm happy to be here and to have this conversation.
Dr. Tami (01:24):
Oh, I am too.
You know, I think theconversation is always
important, right?
When we think about diversity,equity, inclusion in workspaces
and hiring in just everydaylife, I think.
Even more so right now, givensome of the
Jenn (01:42):
Yes.
Dr. Tami (01:43):
climate and more, what's the word I wanna say?
Like prevalent, pushback aroundit.
I think pushback has always beenthere.
It's just a little bit more, um,overt right now.
Jenn (01:56):
You know, I think resistance has always been
there, but pushback is whatwe're experiencing today and I
never thought about it untilyou.
Said it the way you said it justnow.
There's always been this subtleresistance, but now it's like,
there's like pushback and, and alot of my peers in this industry
are feeling it as well too.
Dr. Tami (02:16):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a really great wayto think about that.
Yeah.
Okay.
So.
On every episode because Ibelieve that this work is like a
marathon and not a sprint.
Oftentimes, some misconstrued,like it's a one and done thing.
Like we had a professionaldevelopment on non-biased hiring
(02:40):
practices, right?
And now we're money.
No, right.
This, this is a journey.
And I think one of the importantthings as we think about
humanity and humans is sharingour journey, sharing our story
of how we got into this work.
What does it look like, toinvite.
Others into the work or for the,to invite them to see how
(03:00):
they've maybe been doing some ofthis work and maybe not
realizing it.
So I ask every single one of myguests to share a little bit, a
short version.
Uh, because usually everybodythat's on here has like, and I
say that like a dissertationworthy, journey.
Jenn (03:15):
born.
Dr. Tami (03:17):
Yeah.
And then, um, you know, just alittle bit about your equity
journey, like what brought youhere, to kind of where you are
today.
Jenn (03:28):
Yeah, so, uh, I, I share with people that I grew up in
recruiting in general, and so Istarted off as a baby recruiter,
moved all the way up to leadingrecruiting leaders, and one of
the challenges that we faced asa leader has always been how do
we increase representationwithin our organization?
And so I wanted to do, I wantedto have training for my
(03:48):
recruiters.
And I would go out and take itfirst.
'cause I wanted to see if it wasimmersive, if it was deep enough
training and could not find whatI was looking for.
And you know what they say, youcan't find it, create it and
Dr. Tami (04:02):
Yep.
Write it, create it.
Which we're gonna get to thewriting part in a second.
Jenn (04:07):
okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, exactly.
So on, on my end.
It was really about doing a deepdive in history.
I never even realized that I, Iwould ever be that person that
says I'm a history.
I love learning about history,but the more I began to
understand about history, thedots started connecting very
easily.
When you look at history throughthe lens of employment.
(04:31):
And, um, and so that's the way Igot into this work of diversity,
equity, and inclusion andteaching and training about this
work.
So you were talking just now asecond ago about how there's
just too much general training.
So what we are focused on istraining through the lens of
recruiters so they canunderstand how to do this work.
(04:53):
So that's why I'm here today.
Dr. Tami (04:55):
Okay.
Awesome.
I love that.
If you don't see what you needin the world, go and make it for
yourself and for other peoplethat, that need it.
So I love that.
Um, and well that just kind oftakes us to, right, the
importance of what do we.
(05:16):
What do recruiters need to know?
Right?
When we're thinking abouthiring, when we're thinking
about retention, when we'rethinking about, workplace
culture, you hear so much likebuild an inclusive work
environment, build this, youknow, space of psychological
safety.
And I often find myself beinglike, but for whom?
Jenn (05:37):
Yeah.
Yeah, because, because somepeople are feeling safe, some
people are feeling safe andsecure, and it is just asking
whose voice is missing at thetable.
And so I'm a, I try to teach andtrain and talk in a very.
Plain language sort of way.
Almost like it's two of ussitting and having tea and we're
talking about something that canappear complex, but it's like
(06:00):
your friend is trying to explainit to you.
That's how I talk to recruiters.
Is that your tea or do you havecoffee right now?
Dr. Tami (06:06):
I have coffee, but.
Jenn (06:08):
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
Tea or coffee is absolute.
I've already had my tea thismorning, so we're good.
Okay.
So, um, as I'm trainingrecruiters, it's about looking
at.
Where bias shows up in everymilestone of the hiring process
from how you're thinking aboutfinding, attracting,
interviewing, selecting.
(06:28):
And so I want recruiters to beable to, and hiring managers to
be able to anticipate how biasshows up in all of us as humans
through, through what they'redoing on a regular basis, which
is hiring.
And so that's how I tend to, totrain people.
And we take things that canappear kind of complex and we
(06:50):
break it down into plainlanguage.
So for me, you know, when peoplewill always talk about, um, you
know, equality versus equity andthey would sort of exchange them
and I would, and I would justsay, well, I understand
equality, but then what isequity?
Right?
And I'm sure, you know, withyour show, you've had to explore
that as well too.
(07:10):
And so I talk about equity.
A way of saying, okay, so ifequality is everyone having
access, right?
What's preventing that access?
It's um, it's a lack of equity.
And so really creating equity isabout finding where the hurdles
are to, to actually havingequality and removing those
hurdles.
(07:30):
That's what equity is about.
And so within the hiringprocess, we're asking the
question, where are thosehurdles that are preventing this
equal opportunity?
If in our role where we areaccountable, anyone who touches
the hiring process is if you seesomething, say something,
because that's the only way wecan begin to, to remove bias in
(07:50):
hiring.
Dr. Tami (07:52):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
I have a couple thoughts.
Jenn (07:54):
I love
Dr. Tami (07:55):
imagine that, imagine that, um, I want to come back to
first.
To the idea about bias.
I think that sometimes that, andlet me know if this is what you
see too, is I think people feelchallenged with the idea that
they have bias.
But in reality, right, as ahuman, that is part of humanity,
(08:16):
is we have bias.
The essential part is how do Irecognize my bias?
How do I act or not act on mybias?
Right?
And recognize those, thosebiases.
I'm curious when we're thinkingabout the hiring process and,
and bias and, I know we're gonnaget into your, your book here in
(08:38):
a second, but I know you talkabout underexplored biases and
I'm really curious, like whatare like, maybe a little, couple
nuggets you could share aboutthat, that people think they're
noticing but maybe they're notWhen it comes to, uh, the
workplace.
Jenn (08:54):
I have so many thoughts isn't right now as well too,
because even when you thinkabout, um, bias, it is always
important.
If you have something or someonewho can say, here's how bias
typically shows up, and we allhave it, everybody has it, and
here's how it shows up in thiscontext for you, in your role,
(09:18):
can be very, very helpful.
Because it, it's almost likeit's the stop sign is going to
come, and I want you to knowit's going to come.
So when you approach it, youknow what to do.
So that's sort of the, the formof here's how you can become
more aware of it.
But some exec and, and, thereason that, that there's so
many biases that aren't aware ofbecause of our conditioning,
(09:39):
we've all been conditioned.
Um, in different ways, you know,even how we identify, you know,
culturally from the, a genderstandpoint, from all of,
there's, there's still certainconditionings that happen too
that make us less aware of it.
Okay.
Now to your specific question,
Dr. Tami (09:56):
Those social norms coming in that we don't even
know that we were taught.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (10:01):
Yes.
So like, uh, even how we thinkabout professionalism, who is
and who isn't professional,there's bias.
We see that through a lens ofbias.
When you think aboutprofessionalism, you think about
what's socially acceptable inthe workplace, and you have to
ask yourself who's been in theworkplace the longest?
And, and typically when youthink in the frame of the United
(10:22):
States of America, it's beenwhite men.
And so as they're showing up in,in their suits and ties and,
and, and all of those things,it, it all, the whole idea of
professionalism sort of connectsto that.
And so now fast forward to 2025.
I was reading this article oncethat was talking about.
The more closely you identify oryou show up as, um, as an
(10:45):
able-bodied heterosexual whitemale, the more you're deemed
professional, the more you'redeemed more successful.
And the further you are awayfrom that, the less it is.
So that's one area of bias.
Another one that we don't talkabout enough that I, I do talk
about in the Equity Edge is,competitor bias.
If you've ever worked in aworkplace and specifically have
(11:08):
been in recruiting, you may haveheard hiring managers say, well,
I don't wanna hire anybodythat's ever worked at this
organization over here.
They don't have, you know, theydon't produce great talent, so
don't if, if this, if thisworkplace is on their resume,
don't send them over here.
But, you know, there's biaswithin that.
Right.
Um, and you may be losing out ongreat talent.
(11:31):
They may have gone over thereand decided, I don't wanna work
here either.
I, I'm, I'm too talented.
Dr. Tami (11:37):
Like, this isn't my space or this, this place vexes
my values, or whatever it is,right?
Like
Jenn (11:43):
absolutely.
Um, and so like those are twothat I, that I typically point
out, on what bias can actuallylook like in the workplace.
Dr. Tami (11:52):
Yeah, I think.
Oh, that's like so powerful.
The, and it's so true.
Like even from my own personalexperience, like the further you
are away from the white,heterosexual male, and it can
show up in the smallest of ways,even if we just think about
women in general and how awoman.
Like can show up in a certainway in the workspace or ask
(12:15):
certain questions or, you know,quote unquote be assertive.
Jenn (12:19):
Yeah,
Dr. Tami (12:20):
Um, right.
And that's the word that's oftenused, right?
Like, you're too assertive orwhat?
Versus like, oh, you're being aleader or like a strong leader.
So it's, The, the, I always tellpeople like, it's important to
pay attention to the languagepeople use and, and label with.
Different groups of peoplewithin a space.
Jenn (12:43):
Yeah.
Yes, I absolutely agree.
And while I'm thinking about ittoo.
I actually have a free guide,um, called, Platinum Bias
Checklist, where we have over400 different biases that we
talk about in there.
It's actually a, a pretty thickguide, and we talk, we say This
is the bias, here's how ittypically shows up.
(13:03):
Here's an example of, and here'sone way to mitigate it.
So I'll, I'll give you that
Dr. Tami (13:07):
Oh, I love it, y'all.
I'll put it in the show notes soyou can go get it.
Yes.
We love a free resource, we lovea re free resource.
Um, I love that because it'slike, this is a way to get
started.
I always think it's really niceto have like a quick way to get
started and I, I wanna come backto something you said too,'cause
I was just talking about, youknow, pay attention, right?
(13:29):
When, how people are labeled orhow we talk about people.
In the workspace or when we'rein the, you know, hiring
process.
And you said if you seesomething, say something.
I guess I wanna talk a littlebit about, I think in some
spaces people are afraid to saysomething because the
environment is necessarilyconducive to listening when they
(13:52):
see something and want to saysomething.
So what would be.
I guess your advice or yourthoughts around how to work
through being in that situation.
Jenn (14:06):
Yes.
And so the whole idea of if yousee something, say something, we
hear that all the time, like inairports, if you see something,
say something there.
And so I pull that into the workthat we do, here.
And um, I also wanna prefacethis by saying.
My personal philosophy is not acall out.
(14:26):
I'm, it's not my ministry.
I'm not here to call people out.
Like I see something that I'mgonna point my finger.
Hey, there are some people that,that, that is their ministry and
that's completely okay.
It's like, in order to get thiswork done, I have to call you
out.
My philosophy is more of a callin, right?
And in calling people in, it'smore about asking questions
(14:48):
because we, we wanna assumepositive intent.
And then we wanna ask morequestions to better understand
where were they trying to get towith it.
So that's, that's one way ofjust asking more questions and
then through opening that spaceto ask questions, you know,
there could be an opportunity tohelp, to educate, even though
it's not everyone's job to doany education.
(15:08):
Now, if you're talking in termsof, being a recruiter and how we
teach our recruiters about, ifyou see something, say
something, you.
You have to position yourself asan advisor, as a recruiting
advisor, I'm a recruitingpartner to you hiring manager,
and so my job is to help toprotect you, even if it's from
(15:29):
your own self.
And so being able to positionyourself as an advisor, calling
them in, asking more questions,then it creates that space where
you can share some feedback.
Um, there,
Dr. Tami (15:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jenn (15:40):
what we do.
Dr. Tami (15:41):
I think that's a very important distinction, right?
The, the calling out and thepointing the finger versus an
invitation.
I like to think of it as like aninvitation to a conversation
because if we think about justhumans in general, when someone
is calling us out, a, whateverit is, right?
(16:02):
We automatically get a little
Jenn (16:05):
Tense.
Dr. Tami (16:06):
right, and tense, and our defenses get up.
Which makes us naturally lessopen to listen and hear what
someone else is saying.
'cause we're probably morethinking about how am I
protecting my person?
'cause that is just humannature.
But a question and an invitationor a curiosity around something
you've noticed is, is a littlebit more.
(16:28):
Calming,
Jenn (16:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (16:30):
then not, and, and they may, and you may find, I
think this is also important,you may find in that invitation
in the conversation, they're notin a space to, maybe
Jenn (16:40):
And then you
Dr. Tami (16:40):
some feedback that could help shift it, which is
also great information for youto know, it is not everybody's
job to
Jenn (16:49):
To educate.
Dr. Tami (16:49):
educate everybody.
Jenn (16:51):
Right, right.
And, and another thing that youhad said too was, um.
That make me think about whypeople don't lean in more to
these conversations is becausethey don't wanna experience,
backlash.
Right?
They may be fearful of that.
And so one of the things that Ishare with teams, is language to
(17:13):
use.
I am an avid believer that, um.
Effective language moves morepeople along and leaves less
people feeling left out of theconversation.
And so if you have a team, evenhaving a living, a live document
of.
Here's effective language thatyou can use.
If you wanna lean into thisconversation around equity, you
(17:35):
can just start a document.
You can start a document in yourteam.
And so people realize that, oh,if I say this or use this
phrase, it's effective and we'veall agreed on it.
So now I'm, I'm gonna feel morecomfortable.
Sometimes just giving peoplethe, uh, accepted language to
use within that team environmentcan help more people lean into
conversations.
Dr. Tami (17:55):
Absolutely.
That's the power of communityreally when you think about it,
right?
Because we're all now acollective, and I'm not standing
in, you know, on my own, on thisisland.
So, okay, so all these thingsare happening.
you got into this'cause you'relike, this doesn't even exist.
What I needed to, I, I have justa feeling, I mentioned this
(18:16):
earlier, like if the book that Ineed isn't there, I'm supposed
to write it.
Was it Tony Morrison that saidthat?
I think it was,
Jenn (18:22):
I don't know.
Dr. Tami (18:22):
I, I'll have to look it up, y'all, but I, I don't
know.
I'm feeling, I think it was her.
Jenn (18:27):
Okay.
Dr. Tami (18:28):
rest in peace.
But, I feel like maybe that'show your book came to be was, or
you've had these experiences andyou wanted to put it together.
So I'm just, tell me a littlebit how your book came to be and
what gems you have in there andyour hopes for it, because it
just came out everyone in June.
So exciting.
Congratulations on your book,baby.
Jenn (18:47):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And I do wanna clarify, it's notthat diversity recruitment
training didn't exist.
It just, it just wasn't aseffective as I needed it for the
team.
I would walk into thesetrainings and, um, and the
facilitator.
Would only be able to answersomething very surface level.
(19:08):
I don't know if you've everheard before.
Um, when you think of someonewith more expertise, can they go
three questions deep so you, youanswer the surface level.
Okay, let, let's go deeper.
Can you go?
And they couldn't go deeperbeyond the surface.
Now I wanted something justdeeper now, once we started
rolling out the training and Istarted seeing the questions
that people were asking me, andI loved those conversations, I
(19:31):
started thinking to myself, if.
What is the fuller picture?
What is the, and I'm gonna useyour word'cause I think this is
where you and I really bond thehuman version.
What is the human story that I'mtrying to tell here to bring it
all together and how do Icondense it?
And that's when I startedthinking about the book, the
Equity Edge.
And so with the Equity Edge, notonly do I get to take.
(19:54):
Hiring leaders and recruiters,on a journey or just leaders in
general on a journey on findinggood talent on your team.
I also get to layer in thethings that people have always
wanted to say, but they neverfelt comfortable saying it.
For instance, I have a sectionabout, um, unquestioned answers.
(20:20):
So one of the things thatperpetuates our,
underrepresentation is thatthere are a lot of answers that
we just accept because it's theway we've always done things and
no one ever really questions itlike.
If we have a lack of diversitywithin our organization, it's
because of there's nobody outthere, right?
(20:43):
Or you know, there's a smallerpopulation out there.
Is that the truth?
And so we begin to have thoseconversations.
And another thing about theEquity Edge too, is that I get
to layer in a lot of my personalstories, because again, it makes
it human.
I talk about my dad who workedat the same job for 30 years.
(21:04):
Um, and he never made it beyond,a supervisory position, because
he didn't have his bachelor'sdegree.
However, all of his managers,all the leaders, would always
pull him in to fix things athigher levels because he was the
best at what he did.
They'd always pull him in sothey could give him the work,
(21:26):
but they couldn't give him thetitle, which also didn't equate
to the pay.
Yeah.
And so I get to tell realstories like that throughout the
book, and so being able to bringit all together was very
exciting for me, and I hopepeople can feel it.
Dr. Tami (21:40):
Oh, I, I, I love the power of story.
Like to me, that is how we haverelated to each other as humans,
like throughout our history,right?
Before, you know, like the oral,our oral story, like.
Jenn (21:54):
yeah.
Dr. Tami (21:54):
just the power of story and, and its relatability.
And, you know, as you weretelling your dad's story,
Jenn (22:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (22:03):
me think a lot about.
The hidden work that exists fora lot of people, like maybe
going back to what we talkedabout, the further you, you are,
you are, the further I can'ttalk, the further you are away
from this accepted sort of norm,the less likely you might be
able to be elevated into thosespaces, but they want to.
(22:29):
You know, get some free ideasand free, you know, labor from
you, to do that.
Which is a hard place, becauseone, you feel valued when
someone wants your ideas, right,and your knowledge and you know
that your valuable to them.
But two, it also feels not sogreat because you aren't getting
(22:50):
the recognition and thecompensation you're like.
Wait, what?
You know, it's funny'cause myson, who just graduated from
college was asking me if I hadheard of the Peter principal the
other week
Jenn (23:02):
I haven't, what is the Peter principal
Dr. Tami (23:04):
Oh, okay.
So I was like, this, is whatthis makes me think of.
The Peter principal isessentially that.
Um, people keep getting promotedwithin an organization based on
their ability to do theircurrent job, and they keep
getting promoted to the point,right, where they're, they
(23:24):
really don't have the skillsetto do the role in which they're
placed.
And I know this is something Ihave seen
Jenn (23:31):
Yeah,
Dr. Tami (23:31):
and I know lots of people have, but it makes me
think about that, so you mighthave someone who's been promoted
because they're the right,whatever.
Jenn (23:39):
the right
Dr. Tami (23:40):
Yeah, yeah, whatever.
But then, oh, I'm notnecessarily really qualified for
this.
So now I'm pulling up peoplethat I need their ideas because
I'm not quite in place.
So anyway, the Peter principlejust made me think of this Peter
principle, and I feel like yourbook is a way to kind of maybe
counteract that.
(24:00):
Like if we're looking at the bigpicture within our organization.
Jenn (24:04):
Yes, absolutely to understand that these things are
happening and, and how to, youare exactly right.
How to counteract it.
Uh, there's this one study thatI have been looking for for
years that I cannot go back andfind.
So if any of your listeners findthis, please
Dr. Tami (24:20):
Send it on.
Yes.
Jenn (24:22):
because it was a study about why.
Um, individuals frommarginalized communities tend to
perform at a higher level oncethey get to executive ranks, and
it's not an anomaly that their,that their performance is
actually higher.
Um, and, and it's because theyare.
(24:46):
They spend so much time at themanagerial level because it's so
challenging from people fromunderrepresented groups to go
from the managerial level intothe executive ranks.
But because they've spent somuch time usually double their,
their white male peers, that bythe time against the executive
ranks, they're just performingbetter.
And when I, and I was lookingback for that researcher, I
(25:08):
could not find it, but it was avery interesting article.
Things don't just happen.
You know, we don't just wake upone day to underrepresentation.
There are, there are actualthings that are happening that,
that are causingunderrepresentation at all
levels within an organization.
Dr. Tami (25:26):
Mm yes.
Oh, that's very.
Jenn (25:32):
Isn't that interesting?
Dr. Tami (25:33):
That's so interesting and it, it probably is true,
right?
Especially if you think about ifsomeone's sitting in like a mid,
mid-level management role,right?
You're, that role is kind oftugged from both.
Areas, right?
And you get to kind of learn howto navigate all the spaces,
which really sets you up.
(25:53):
I, I'm a very much like asystems brain thinker girl and
to me, the more you understand asystem when you are at an
elevated role, the easier it isto relate and to make decisions
or.
Strategically build systems thatget the voices at the table that
(26:14):
need to be heard, so you get thedesired outcomes I think
sometimes when people areelevated too quickly or don't
have the experience, they justwanna make decisions because
they're, I'm the executive andthis is what we need to do.
And it maybe ignores, um.
Jenn (26:33):
The bigger picture,
Dr. Tami (26:34):
Uh huh Uhhuh and then the people in the mid-manager
right.
Are scrambling to, you know,make, make things work.
Jenn (26:42):
I would, I would absolutely agree.
I couldn't have said it better.
Dr. Tami (26:47):
Love it.
Love it.
Okay, so your book, I, what areyour kind, what are your goals?
What are your hopes for theimpact that your, your book will
have?
Who, who should get this book?
Jenn (26:58):
So the impact that I'm hoping it has is that it stir
greater discussion around what.
Not only what real equity is,but how it can be an edge for
your organization, how it can bea benefit and advantage for your
organization.
And so it um, one of the thingsthat I failed to mention earlier
when we were talking about thebook is that at the end of each
(27:20):
chapter, I also write.
A note to job seekers.
So it's almost like, Hey, payattention to what I'm telling
employers, because here's howyou can use this information to
your advantage if you're on yourjob search.
So it's to people who are ontheir job search.
It's to leaders withinorganizations that have to fill
positions on their team or whoare thinking about who needs to
(27:43):
go to the next level.
Um.
So, yeah, if you're in aworkplace and you're trying to
drive change, even if you're noteven connected to these, even if
you're just an employee in yourworkplace and you want to drive
change, just slide this bookover to your CHRO.
I say the things in there foryou.
Dr. Tami (28:03):
Look.
I love that.
I love that.
What about, um, I'm curious.
You know, we wanna slide itover, but I feel like this could
even be a space to start withmaybe some ERGs or those types
of groups who are, you know,tasked in some ways to help
support, um, building that edge.
I really love that.
I love the way you explain that.
(28:24):
I'm like, it's gonna give youthat edge.
Like, oh, I was like, that ismoney.
I love it.
Jenn (28:30):
Here's how you can really think about leveling the playing
field to have an edge.
But you're, you're absolutelyright.
If your organization, um, has anERG or, and they have a book
club, or if there's a book clubwithin your, this is a great
book to use in a very tacticalway to figure out if you're
asking, Hey, what's next?
Especially now, you know, inthis current landscape, it's,
(28:53):
it's what's next, um, for us,within our organization.
And so this is a good book forthat.
Dr. Tami (28:58):
Yeah, I wanna talk about that a little bit, right?
The current landscape andclimate, we talked about the
resistance, a little bit and.
I feel like your book is anopportunity for those that might
be challenged a little bit withthe resistance.
Like where do we fit, where dowe align?
You know, there's, there's a lotof legislation or like, not even
(29:21):
legislation, it's just executiveorders.
Um, I, I just need everybodyunderstand those are not the
same thing.
Jenn (29:28):
Correct.
Dr. Tami (29:29):
One is not the law.
Sorry, that was a little sidenote.
But there's a lot of thingshappening.
There's the, the pushback wetalked about, so not quite
resistance.
Um, and I lost my question in myside note, but let me Hold on.
It'll go, go ahead.
Jenn (29:50):
But let, but, so with, with the current landscape,
which is what we were talkingabout, um, because I, I tend to
talk about this a lot onpodcasts too, that it's almost
like with this administration,it makes you wonder, was the
goal?
To keep workplaces sort ofspinning in this perpetual way,
(30:12):
sort of spinning.
So it's not a, Hey, we, we don'tdo this, we won't do this.
It's a, I don't know how we cando this, you know, this human
work to create equitable access.
I don't know how we can do thisbecause we're, we're still not
fully understanding all of thelegislation.
(30:33):
And I wonder if that was theactual goal, just to keep people
sort of.
Confused a little bit so that nomotion happens, right?
Dr. Tami (30:42):
Oh, I feel like that is probably spot on.
I, I keep saying that about alot of things, like it's smoke
and mirrors, right?
Because if like, don't look inthe right hand.
'cause I got, you're, you're,you're looking at the left hand
and what's happening over hereand something's happening over
here and I think.
Jenn (30:58):
That's how it feels.
Dr. Tami (31:00):
Yeah, I think you're probably spot on.
'cause if you're circling thedrain right, you're not gonna
make a decision.
You're trying to make changesbecause, this was said this week
and then it's repealed the nextlike, and so all you're doing
is, is
Jenn (31:16):
to circle.
Dr. Tami (31:17):
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (31:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you do with that?
And so my goal, my goal, um, wehave a, a newsletter on LinkedIn
called, Increased Diversity.
My goal has been how do I helpto bring some clarity to,,
employers who are still tryingto come out of that spinning,
you know?
So every week we're posting anarticle where we're talking
(31:39):
about, you know, these things.
So.
Dr. Tami (31:42):
You know, that's so funny.
I was just gonna bring up yournewsletter because.
I am so intrigued by thecurrent, uh, Workday class
action.
Jenn (31:53):
you've been following
Dr. Tami (31:54):
Oh, yes.
I've been following it and I,yeah, so y'all like, you need to
subscribe to this newsletterbecause it's so informative.
A hundred percent.
And I, of course will put alink, um, to the website so you
can do that.
But.
I'm so curious.
Like just, anybody, if you're onLinkedIn,
Jenn (32:14):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (32:15):
you see just every day this narrative about people and
like, I'm applying for hundredsof jobs, like all this jobs and
like AI and all this stuff.
So, um, if you're not familiarright now, there's a, a lawsuit
that's about to be heard relatedto Workday and like them using
ai.
To filter, um, their applicantsand that the AI as an agent of
(32:40):
these companies is biased, whichwe do know, like AI learn, going
back to what we talked about,society, right?
Like AI learns what it gleansfrom society.
So by its very nature, it isalso going to be biased because
it is learning biasedinformation, right?
Jenn (32:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because how it's being built.
So, and I always, I tell peopleoften that when it comes to AI
you have to remember two things.
One is people who are buildingthese software, they still have
to pay attention to their ownbiases as well, because it feeds
(33:16):
into the thinking and the logicin this.
And then second, I alwaysrecommend that if employers are
using AI.
That they do not replace it fromthe real work.
That has to be done withidentifying your own biases too,
because you're just delaying theinevitable.
Eventually, they're gonna meetyou and, and your team, and if
(33:36):
you, if you're still nottraining them to identify their
own biases, you're still gonnarun into issues down the line.
Dr. Tami (33:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I am.
So yeah, we're on part three offour.
Jenn (33:51):
I just approved part four today, so part three came, came
out today I think.
Um, and then part four will beout next week.
Dr. Tami (34:01):
Yes.
So y'all like I Well, it'll bereleased out.
It'll already be released.
So you need to go back and readpast issues by the time this
podcast comes out.
But like, and, and
Jenn (34:11):
Thank you.
Dr. Tami (34:12):
Yes.
And, you know, pay attention,because these are important
things, like, I think it's easy,like we were talking about, to
get, into the weeds witheverything that's happening and
like you don't have to.
Teach everyone.
You don't have to be intoeverything, but pick some things
that are important to you tocontinue and to learn about.
Um, get Jenn's book, the EquityEdge to to help you.
(34:37):
Um, anything else Jenn, youwanna share about your book that
I didn't ask you?
Jenn (34:44):
So in the very end we started talking about, you know,
throughout the book we talkedabout who is qualified.
It is this, it's this questionthat I want all of your
listeners to think about.
This, everywhere we go, we'reasking the question, who is
qualified even outside of theworkplace.
It's more than who's qualifiedfor this position.
(35:06):
It's who's qualified to be mybestie, who's qualified to be my
partner in life, who's qualifiedto be my um, business coach?
We're always asking thequestion, who was qualified?
You know, any of the lensthrough which we're qualifying,
people still has bias attachedto it.
(35:26):
So if we keep thinking that it'sjust about how we show up in the
workplace, we're missing thebigger picture.
It's a human factor, and that'swhat, um, I want people to be
able to understand as they'relooking at the Equity Edge here
too.
So, thank you.
Dr. Tami (35:39):
Oh, you are so welcome.
I love that.
I love We can't, yes.
Humans are so necessary we can'tbe replaced.
Right?
And Lord knows we've seen enoughmovies.
What happens when we try, likeit's not a good idea.
Awesome.
Well, I want you all to, youknow, put in the show notes, uh,
(36:00):
information to get connectedwith Jenn if you are interested
in her services, A link to herbook, her free resource, she
mentioned.
I feel like you kind of gave afinal tip.
It was really related to yourbook, but do you have one kind
of final tip you wanna give, uh,to the listeners today before we
wrap up?
Jenn (36:15):
I would just say stay connected to us.
You can just go to jennifertardy.com where we have so many
free resources and things there.
So if, if you're just interestedin how to get your feet wet and
what more you can do, just stayconnected to us as well, and we
can, we can keep you on theright path.
Dr. Tami (36:32):
Yes.
I love that.
Well, thank you, Jenn, forjoining me today.
Thank you listeners for tuninginto another episode of the
Equity Hour.
As you know, you can findeverything in the show notes and
make sure you're using yourvoice today.
Thank you, Jenn.
Jenn (36:48):
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate you.
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of
The Equity Hour with me, yourhost, Dr.
Tami.
I am so excited this week tobring Jennn Tardy to the
podcast.
Hello, Jenn.
Jenn (00:25):
Well, hello there.
Thank you for having me.
Dr. Tami (00:28):
We are so excited to have you on the podcast.
And of course, today we're gonnabe talking about all things
equity.
And let me tell you a little bitabout Jenn before we hop right
in today.
Jenn Tardy has been on a missionto help employers and job
seekers reach their goals since2004.
Driven by a passion to seeincreasing diversity.
Make sense?
(00:48):
And since, gosh, I love that.
As a recruitment thought leader,she established Jenn Tardy
Consulting, AKA team, JTC toenable employers to find a
track, engage, and hire moreapplicants from historically
underrepresented backgrounds.
Through her hashtag hiringsuccess programs, she has
empowered many organizations totalk openly about.
(01:10):
Underrepresentation, removeinequalities from their hiring
processes and foster moreinclusive work cultures.
Welcome, Jenn.
Jenn (01:21):
I'm happy to be here and to have this conversation.
Dr. Tami (01:24):
Oh, I am too.
You know, I think theconversation is always
important, right?
When we think about diversity,equity, inclusion in workspaces
and hiring in just everydaylife, I think.
Even more so right now, givensome of the
Jenn (01:42):
Yes.
Dr. Tami (01:43):
climate and more, what's the word I wanna say?
Like prevalent, pushback aroundit.
I think pushback has always beenthere.
It's just a little bit more, um,overt right now.
Jenn (01:56):
You know, I think resistance has always been
there, but pushback is whatwe're experiencing today and I
never thought about it untilyou.
Said it the way you said it justnow.
There's always been this subtleresistance, but now it's like,
there's like pushback and, and alot of my peers in this industry
are feeling it as well too.
Dr. Tami (02:16):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a really great wayto think about that.
Yeah.
Okay.
So.
On every episode because Ibelieve that this work is like a
marathon and not a sprint.
Oftentimes, some misconstrued,like it's a one and done thing.
Like we had a professionaldevelopment on non-biased hiring
(02:40):
practices, right?
And now we're money.
No, right.
This, this is a journey.
And I think one of the importantthings as we think about
humanity and humans is sharingour journey, sharing our story
of how we got into this work.
What does it look like, toinvite.
Others into the work or for the,to invite them to see how
(03:00):
they've maybe been doing some ofthis work and maybe not
realizing it.
So I ask every single one of myguests to share a little bit, a
short version.
Uh, because usually everybodythat's on here has like, and I
say that like a dissertationworthy, journey.
Jenn (03:15):
born.
Dr. Tami (03:17):
Yeah.
And then, um, you know, just alittle bit about your equity
journey, like what brought youhere, to kind of where you are
today.
Jenn (03:28):
Yeah, so, uh, I, I share with people that I grew up in
recruiting in general, and so Istarted off as a baby recruiter,
moved all the way up to leadingrecruiting leaders, and one of
the challenges that we faced asa leader has always been how do
we increase representationwithin our organization?
And so I wanted to do, I wantedto have training for my
(03:48):
recruiters.
And I would go out and take itfirst.
'cause I wanted to see if it wasimmersive, if it was deep enough
training and could not find whatI was looking for.
And you know what they say, youcan't find it, create it and
Dr. Tami (04:02):
Yep.
Write it, create it.
Which we're gonna get to thewriting part in a second.
Jenn (04:07):
okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, exactly.
So on, on my end.
It was really about doing a deepdive in history.
I never even realized that I, Iwould ever be that person that
says I'm a history.
I love learning about history,but the more I began to
understand about history, thedots started connecting very
easily.
When you look at history throughthe lens of employment.
(04:31):
And, um, and so that's the way Igot into this work of diversity,
equity, and inclusion andteaching and training about this
work.
So you were talking just now asecond ago about how there's
just too much general training.
So what we are focused on istraining through the lens of
recruiters so they canunderstand how to do this work.
(04:53):
So that's why I'm here today.
Dr. Tami (04:55):
Okay.
Awesome.
I love that.
If you don't see what you needin the world, go and make it for
yourself and for other peoplethat, that need it.
So I love that.
Um, and well that just kind oftakes us to, right, the
importance of what do we.
(05:16):
What do recruiters need to know?
Right?
When we're thinking abouthiring, when we're thinking
about retention, when we'rethinking about, workplace
culture, you hear so much likebuild an inclusive work
environment, build this, youknow, space of psychological
safety.
And I often find myself beinglike, but for whom?
Jenn (05:37):
Yeah.
Yeah, because, because somepeople are feeling safe, some
people are feeling safe andsecure, and it is just asking
whose voice is missing at thetable.
And so I'm a, I try to teach andtrain and talk in a very.
Plain language sort of way.
Almost like it's two of ussitting and having tea and we're
talking about something that canappear complex, but it's like
(06:00):
your friend is trying to explainit to you.
That's how I talk to recruiters.
Is that your tea or do you havecoffee right now?
Dr. Tami (06:06):
I have coffee, but.
Jenn (06:08):
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
Tea or coffee is absolute.
I've already had my tea thismorning, so we're good.
Okay.
So, um, as I'm trainingrecruiters, it's about looking
at.
Where bias shows up in everymilestone of the hiring process
from how you're thinking aboutfinding, attracting,
interviewing, selecting.
(06:28):
And so I want recruiters to beable to, and hiring managers to
be able to anticipate how biasshows up in all of us as humans
through, through what they'redoing on a regular basis, which
is hiring.
And so that's how I tend to, totrain people.
And we take things that canappear kind of complex and we
(06:50):
break it down into plainlanguage.
So for me, you know, when peoplewill always talk about, um, you
know, equality versus equity andthey would sort of exchange them
and I would, and I would justsay, well, I understand
equality, but then what isequity?
Right?
And I'm sure, you know, withyour show, you've had to explore
that as well too.
(07:10):
And so I talk about equity.
A way of saying, okay, so ifequality is everyone having
access, right?
What's preventing that access?
It's um, it's a lack of equity.
And so really creating equity isabout finding where the hurdles
are to, to actually havingequality and removing those
hurdles.
(07:30):
That's what equity is about.
And so within the hiringprocess, we're asking the
question, where are thosehurdles that are preventing this
equal opportunity?
If in our role where we areaccountable, anyone who touches
the hiring process is if you seesomething, say something,
because that's the only way wecan begin to, to remove bias in
(07:50):
hiring.
Dr. Tami (07:52):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
I have a couple thoughts.
Jenn (07:54):
I love
Dr. Tami (07:55):
imagine that, imagine that, um, I want to come back to
first.
To the idea about bias.
I think that sometimes that, andlet me know if this is what you
see too, is I think people feelchallenged with the idea that
they have bias.
But in reality, right, as ahuman, that is part of humanity,
(08:16):
is we have bias.
The essential part is how do Irecognize my bias?
How do I act or not act on mybias?
Right?
And recognize those, thosebiases.
I'm curious when we're thinkingabout the hiring process and,
and bias and, I know we're gonnaget into your, your book here in
(08:38):
a second, but I know you talkabout underexplored biases and
I'm really curious, like whatare like, maybe a little, couple
nuggets you could share aboutthat, that people think they're
noticing but maybe they're notWhen it comes to, uh, the
workplace.
Jenn (08:54):
I have so many thoughts isn't right now as well too,
because even when you thinkabout, um, bias, it is always
important.
If you have something or someonewho can say, here's how bias
typically shows up, and we allhave it, everybody has it, and
here's how it shows up in thiscontext for you, in your role,
(09:18):
can be very, very helpful.
Because it, it's almost likeit's the stop sign is going to
come, and I want you to knowit's going to come.
So when you approach it, youknow what to do.
So that's sort of the, the formof here's how you can become
more aware of it.
But some exec and, and, thereason that, that there's so
many biases that aren't aware ofbecause of our conditioning,
(09:39):
we've all been conditioned.
Um, in different ways, you know,even how we identify, you know,
culturally from the, a genderstandpoint, from all of,
there's, there's still certainconditionings that happen too
that make us less aware of it.
Okay.
Now to your specific question,
Dr. Tami (09:56):
Those social norms coming in that we don't even
know that we were taught.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (10:01):
Yes.
So like, uh, even how we thinkabout professionalism, who is
and who isn't professional,there's bias.
We see that through a lens ofbias.
When you think aboutprofessionalism, you think about
what's socially acceptable inthe workplace, and you have to
ask yourself who's been in theworkplace the longest?
And, and typically when youthink in the frame of the United
(10:22):
States of America, it's beenwhite men.
And so as they're showing up in,in their suits and ties and,
and, and all of those things,it, it all, the whole idea of
professionalism sort of connectsto that.
And so now fast forward to 2025.
I was reading this article oncethat was talking about.
The more closely you identify oryou show up as, um, as an
(10:45):
able-bodied heterosexual whitemale, the more you're deemed
professional, the more you'redeemed more successful.
And the further you are awayfrom that, the less it is.
So that's one area of bias.
Another one that we don't talkabout enough that I, I do talk
about in the Equity Edge is,competitor bias.
If you've ever worked in aworkplace and specifically have
(11:08):
been in recruiting, you may haveheard hiring managers say, well,
I don't wanna hire anybodythat's ever worked at this
organization over here.
They don't have, you know, theydon't produce great talent, so
don't if, if this, if thisworkplace is on their resume,
don't send them over here.
But, you know, there's biaswithin that.
Right.
Um, and you may be losing out ongreat talent.
(11:31):
They may have gone over thereand decided, I don't wanna work
here either.
I, I'm, I'm too talented.
Dr. Tami (11:37):
Like, this isn't my space or this, this place vexes
my values, or whatever it is,right?
Like
Jenn (11:43):
absolutely.
Um, and so like those are twothat I, that I typically point
out, on what bias can actuallylook like in the workplace.
Dr. Tami (11:52):
Yeah, I think.
Oh, that's like so powerful.
The, and it's so true.
Like even from my own personalexperience, like the further you
are away from the white,heterosexual male, and it can
show up in the smallest of ways,even if we just think about
women in general and how awoman.
Like can show up in a certainway in the workspace or ask
(12:15):
certain questions or, you know,quote unquote be assertive.
Jenn (12:19):
Yeah,
Dr. Tami (12:20):
Um, right.
And that's the word that's oftenused, right?
Like, you're too assertive orwhat?
Versus like, oh, you're being aleader or like a strong leader.
So it's, The, the, I always tellpeople like, it's important to
pay attention to the languagepeople use and, and label with.
Different groups of peoplewithin a space.
Jenn (12:43):
Yeah.
Yes, I absolutely agree.
And while I'm thinking about ittoo.
I actually have a free guide,um, called, Platinum Bias
Checklist, where we have over400 different biases that we
talk about in there.
It's actually a, a pretty thickguide, and we talk, we say This
is the bias, here's how ittypically shows up.
(13:03):
Here's an example of, and here'sone way to mitigate it.
So I'll, I'll give you that
Dr. Tami (13:07):
Oh, I love it, y'all.
I'll put it in the show notes soyou can go get it.
Yes.
We love a free resource, we lovea re free resource.
Um, I love that because it'slike, this is a way to get
started.
I always think it's really niceto have like a quick way to get
started and I, I wanna come backto something you said too,'cause
I was just talking about, youknow, pay attention, right?
(13:29):
When, how people are labeled orhow we talk about people.
In the workspace or when we'rein the, you know, hiring
process.
And you said if you seesomething, say something.
I guess I wanna talk a littlebit about, I think in some
spaces people are afraid to saysomething because the
environment is necessarilyconducive to listening when they
(13:52):
see something and want to saysomething.
So what would be.
I guess your advice or yourthoughts around how to work
through being in that situation.
Jenn (14:06):
Yes.
And so the whole idea of if yousee something, say something, we
hear that all the time, like inairports, if you see something,
say something there.
And so I pull that into the workthat we do, here.
And um, I also wanna prefacethis by saying.
My personal philosophy is not acall out.
(14:26):
I'm, it's not my ministry.
I'm not here to call people out.
Like I see something that I'mgonna point my finger.
Hey, there are some people that,that, that is their ministry and
that's completely okay.
It's like, in order to get thiswork done, I have to call you
out.
My philosophy is more of a callin, right?
And in calling people in, it'smore about asking questions
(14:48):
because we, we wanna assumepositive intent.
And then we wanna ask morequestions to better understand
where were they trying to get towith it.
So that's, that's one way ofjust asking more questions and
then through opening that spaceto ask questions, you know,
there could be an opportunity tohelp, to educate, even though
it's not everyone's job to doany education.
(15:08):
Now, if you're talking in termsof, being a recruiter and how we
teach our recruiters about, ifyou see something, say
something, you.
You have to position yourself asan advisor, as a recruiting
advisor, I'm a recruitingpartner to you hiring manager,
and so my job is to help toprotect you, even if it's from
(15:29):
your own self.
And so being able to positionyourself as an advisor, calling
them in, asking more questions,then it creates that space where
you can share some feedback.
Um, there,
Dr. Tami (15:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jenn (15:40):
what we do.
Dr. Tami (15:41):
I think that's a very important distinction, right?
The, the calling out and thepointing the finger versus an
invitation.
I like to think of it as like aninvitation to a conversation
because if we think about justhumans in general, when someone
is calling us out, a, whateverit is, right?
(16:02):
We automatically get a little
Jenn (16:05):
Tense.
Dr. Tami (16:06):
right, and tense, and our defenses get up.
Which makes us naturally lessopen to listen and hear what
someone else is saying.
'cause we're probably morethinking about how am I
protecting my person?
'cause that is just humannature.
But a question and an invitationor a curiosity around something
you've noticed is, is a littlebit more.
(16:28):
Calming,
Jenn (16:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (16:30):
then not, and, and they may, and you may find, I
think this is also important,you may find in that invitation
in the conversation, they're notin a space to, maybe
Jenn (16:40):
And then you
Dr. Tami (16:40):
some feedback that could help shift it, which is
also great information for youto know, it is not everybody's
job to
Jenn (16:49):
To educate.
Dr. Tami (16:49):
educate everybody.
Jenn (16:51):
Right, right.
And, and another thing that youhad said too was, um.
That make me think about whypeople don't lean in more to
these conversations is becausethey don't wanna experience,
backlash.
Right?
They may be fearful of that.
And so one of the things that Ishare with teams, is language to
(17:13):
use.
I am an avid believer that, um.
Effective language moves morepeople along and leaves less
people feeling left out of theconversation.
And so if you have a team, evenhaving a living, a live document
of.
Here's effective language thatyou can use.
If you wanna lean into thisconversation around equity, you
(17:35):
can just start a document.
You can start a document in yourteam.
And so people realize that, oh,if I say this or use this
phrase, it's effective and we'veall agreed on it.
So now I'm, I'm gonna feel morecomfortable.
Sometimes just giving peoplethe, uh, accepted language to
use within that team environmentcan help more people lean into
conversations.
Dr. Tami (17:55):
Absolutely.
That's the power of communityreally when you think about it,
right?
Because we're all now acollective, and I'm not standing
in, you know, on my own, on thisisland.
So, okay, so all these thingsare happening.
you got into this'cause you'relike, this doesn't even exist.
What I needed to, I, I have justa feeling, I mentioned this
(18:16):
earlier, like if the book that Ineed isn't there, I'm supposed
to write it.
Was it Tony Morrison that saidthat?
I think it was,
Jenn (18:22):
I don't know.
Dr. Tami (18:22):
I, I'll have to look it up, y'all, but I, I don't
know.
I'm feeling, I think it was her.
Jenn (18:27):
Okay.
Dr. Tami (18:28):
rest in peace.
But, I feel like maybe that'show your book came to be was, or
you've had these experiences andyou wanted to put it together.
So I'm just, tell me a littlebit how your book came to be and
what gems you have in there andyour hopes for it, because it
just came out everyone in June.
So exciting.
Congratulations on your book,baby.
Jenn (18:47):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And I do wanna clarify, it's notthat diversity recruitment
training didn't exist.
It just, it just wasn't aseffective as I needed it for the
team.
I would walk into thesetrainings and, um, and the
facilitator.
Would only be able to answersomething very surface level.
(19:08):
I don't know if you've everheard before.
Um, when you think of someonewith more expertise, can they go
three questions deep so you, youanswer the surface level.
Okay, let, let's go deeper.
Can you go?
And they couldn't go deeperbeyond the surface.
Now I wanted something justdeeper now, once we started
rolling out the training and Istarted seeing the questions
that people were asking me, andI loved those conversations, I
(19:31):
started thinking to myself, if.
What is the fuller picture?
What is the, and I'm gonna useyour word'cause I think this is
where you and I really bond thehuman version.
What is the human story that I'mtrying to tell here to bring it
all together and how do Icondense it?
And that's when I startedthinking about the book, the
Equity Edge.
And so with the Equity Edge, notonly do I get to take.
(19:54):
Hiring leaders and recruiters,on a journey or just leaders in
general on a journey on findinggood talent on your team.
I also get to layer in thethings that people have always
wanted to say, but they neverfelt comfortable saying it.
For instance, I have a sectionabout, um, unquestioned answers.
(20:20):
So one of the things thatperpetuates our,
underrepresentation is thatthere are a lot of answers that
we just accept because it's theway we've always done things and
no one ever really questions itlike.
If we have a lack of diversitywithin our organization, it's
because of there's nobody outthere, right?
(20:43):
Or you know, there's a smallerpopulation out there.
Is that the truth?
And so we begin to have thoseconversations.
And another thing about theEquity Edge too, is that I get
to layer in a lot of my personalstories, because again, it makes
it human.
I talk about my dad who workedat the same job for 30 years.
(21:04):
Um, and he never made it beyond,a supervisory position, because
he didn't have his bachelor'sdegree.
However, all of his managers,all the leaders, would always
pull him in to fix things athigher levels because he was the
best at what he did.
They'd always pull him in sothey could give him the work,
(21:26):
but they couldn't give him thetitle, which also didn't equate
to the pay.
Yeah.
And so I get to tell realstories like that throughout the
book, and so being able to bringit all together was very
exciting for me, and I hopepeople can feel it.
Dr. Tami (21:40):
Oh, I, I, I love the power of story.
Like to me, that is how we haverelated to each other as humans,
like throughout our history,right?
Before, you know, like the oral,our oral story, like.
Jenn (21:54):
yeah.
Dr. Tami (21:54):
just the power of story and, and its relatability.
And, you know, as you weretelling your dad's story,
Jenn (22:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (22:03):
me think a lot about.
The hidden work that exists fora lot of people, like maybe
going back to what we talkedabout, the further you, you are,
you are, the further I can'ttalk, the further you are away
from this accepted sort of norm,the less likely you might be
able to be elevated into thosespaces, but they want to.
(22:29):
You know, get some free ideasand free, you know, labor from
you, to do that.
Which is a hard place, becauseone, you feel valued when
someone wants your ideas, right,and your knowledge and you know
that your valuable to them.
But two, it also feels not sogreat because you aren't getting
(22:50):
the recognition and thecompensation you're like.
Wait, what?
You know, it's funny'cause myson, who just graduated from
college was asking me if I hadheard of the Peter principal the
other week
Jenn (23:02):
I haven't, what is the Peter principal
Dr. Tami (23:04):
Oh, okay.
So I was like, this, is whatthis makes me think of.
The Peter principal isessentially that.
Um, people keep getting promotedwithin an organization based on
their ability to do theircurrent job, and they keep
getting promoted to the point,right, where they're, they
(23:24):
really don't have the skillsetto do the role in which they're
placed.
And I know this is something Ihave seen
Jenn (23:31):
Yeah,
Dr. Tami (23:31):
and I know lots of people have, but it makes me
think about that, so you mighthave someone who's been promoted
because they're the right,whatever.
Jenn (23:39):
the right
Dr. Tami (23:40):
Yeah, yeah, whatever.
But then, oh, I'm notnecessarily really qualified for
this.
So now I'm pulling up peoplethat I need their ideas because
I'm not quite in place.
So anyway, the Peter principlejust made me think of this Peter
principle, and I feel like yourbook is a way to kind of maybe
counteract that.
(24:00):
Like if we're looking at the bigpicture within our organization.
Jenn (24:04):
Yes, absolutely to understand that these things are
happening and, and how to, youare exactly right.
How to counteract it.
Uh, there's this one study thatI have been looking for for
years that I cannot go back andfind.
So if any of your listeners findthis, please
Dr. Tami (24:20):
Send it on.
Yes.
Jenn (24:22):
because it was a study about why.
Um, individuals frommarginalized communities tend to
perform at a higher level oncethey get to executive ranks, and
it's not an anomaly that their,that their performance is
actually higher.
Um, and, and it's because theyare.
(24:46):
They spend so much time at themanagerial level because it's so
challenging from people fromunderrepresented groups to go
from the managerial level intothe executive ranks.
But because they've spent somuch time usually double their,
their white male peers, that bythe time against the executive
ranks, they're just performingbetter.
And when I, and I was lookingback for that researcher, I
(25:08):
could not find it, but it was avery interesting article.
Things don't just happen.
You know, we don't just wake upone day to underrepresentation.
There are, there are actualthings that are happening that,
that are causingunderrepresentation at all
levels within an organization.
Dr. Tami (25:26):
Mm yes.
Oh, that's very.
Jenn (25:32):
Isn't that interesting?
Dr. Tami (25:33):
That's so interesting and it, it probably is true,
right?
Especially if you think about ifsomeone's sitting in like a mid,
mid-level management role,right?
You're, that role is kind oftugged from both.
Areas, right?
And you get to kind of learn howto navigate all the spaces,
which really sets you up.
(25:53):
I, I'm a very much like asystems brain thinker girl and
to me, the more you understand asystem when you are at an
elevated role, the easier it isto relate and to make decisions
or.
Strategically build systems thatget the voices at the table that
(26:14):
need to be heard, so you get thedesired outcomes I think
sometimes when people areelevated too quickly or don't
have the experience, they justwanna make decisions because
they're, I'm the executive andthis is what we need to do.
And it maybe ignores, um.
Jenn (26:33):
The bigger picture,
Dr. Tami (26:34):
Uh huh Uhhuh and then the people in the mid-manager
right.
Are scrambling to, you know,make, make things work.
Jenn (26:42):
I would, I would absolutely agree.
I couldn't have said it better.
Dr. Tami (26:47):
Love it.
Love it.
Okay, so your book, I, what areyour kind, what are your goals?
What are your hopes for theimpact that your, your book will
have?
Who, who should get this book?
Jenn (26:58):
So the impact that I'm hoping it has is that it stir
greater discussion around what.
Not only what real equity is,but how it can be an edge for
your organization, how it can bea benefit and advantage for your
organization.
And so it um, one of the thingsthat I failed to mention earlier
when we were talking about thebook is that at the end of each
(27:20):
chapter, I also write.
A note to job seekers.
So it's almost like, Hey, payattention to what I'm telling
employers, because here's howyou can use this information to
your advantage if you're on yourjob search.
So it's to people who are ontheir job search.
It's to leaders withinorganizations that have to fill
positions on their team or whoare thinking about who needs to
(27:43):
go to the next level.
Um.
So, yeah, if you're in aworkplace and you're trying to
drive change, even if you're noteven connected to these, even if
you're just an employee in yourworkplace and you want to drive
change, just slide this bookover to your CHRO.
I say the things in there foryou.
Dr. Tami (28:03):
Look.
I love that.
I love that.
What about, um, I'm curious.
You know, we wanna slide itover, but I feel like this could
even be a space to start withmaybe some ERGs or those types
of groups who are, you know,tasked in some ways to help
support, um, building that edge.
I really love that.
I love the way you explain that.
(28:24):
I'm like, it's gonna give youthat edge.
Like, oh, I was like, that ismoney.
I love it.
Jenn (28:30):
Here's how you can really think about leveling the playing
field to have an edge.
But you're, you're absolutelyright.
If your organization, um, has anERG or, and they have a book
club, or if there's a book clubwithin your, this is a great
book to use in a very tacticalway to figure out if you're
asking, Hey, what's next?
Especially now, you know, inthis current landscape, it's,
(28:53):
it's what's next, um, for us,within our organization.
And so this is a good book forthat.
Dr. Tami (28:58):
Yeah, I wanna talk about that a little bit, right?
The current landscape andclimate, we talked about the
resistance, a little bit and.
I feel like your book is anopportunity for those that might
be challenged a little bit withthe resistance.
Like where do we fit, where dowe align?
You know, there's, there's a lotof legislation or like, not even
(29:21):
legislation, it's just executiveorders.
Um, I, I just need everybodyunderstand those are not the
same thing.
Jenn (29:28):
Correct.
Dr. Tami (29:29):
One is not the law.
Sorry, that was a little sidenote.
But there's a lot of thingshappening.
There's the, the pushback wetalked about, so not quite
resistance.
Um, and I lost my question in myside note, but let me Hold on.
It'll go, go ahead.
Jenn (29:50):
But let, but, so with, with the current landscape,
which is what we were talkingabout, um, because I, I tend to
talk about this a lot onpodcasts too, that it's almost
like with this administration,it makes you wonder, was the
goal?
To keep workplaces sort ofspinning in this perpetual way,
(30:12):
sort of spinning.
So it's not a, Hey, we, we don'tdo this, we won't do this.
It's a, I don't know how we cando this, you know, this human
work to create equitable access.
I don't know how we can do thisbecause we're, we're still not
fully understanding all of thelegislation.
(30:33):
And I wonder if that was theactual goal, just to keep people
sort of.
Confused a little bit so that nomotion happens, right?
Dr. Tami (30:42):
Oh, I feel like that is probably spot on.
I, I keep saying that about alot of things, like it's smoke
and mirrors, right?
Because if like, don't look inthe right hand.
'cause I got, you're, you're,you're looking at the left hand
and what's happening over hereand something's happening over
here and I think.
Jenn (30:58):
That's how it feels.
Dr. Tami (31:00):
Yeah, I think you're probably spot on.
'cause if you're circling thedrain right, you're not gonna
make a decision.
You're trying to make changesbecause, this was said this week
and then it's repealed the nextlike, and so all you're doing
is, is
Jenn (31:16):
to circle.
Dr. Tami (31:17):
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (31:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you do with that?
And so my goal, my goal, um, wehave a, a newsletter on LinkedIn
called, Increased Diversity.
My goal has been how do I helpto bring some clarity to,,
employers who are still tryingto come out of that spinning,
you know?
So every week we're posting anarticle where we're talking
(31:39):
about, you know, these things.
So.
Dr. Tami (31:42):
You know, that's so funny.
I was just gonna bring up yournewsletter because.
I am so intrigued by thecurrent, uh, Workday class
action.
Jenn (31:53):
you've been following
Dr. Tami (31:54):
Oh, yes.
I've been following it and I,yeah, so y'all like, you need to
subscribe to this newsletterbecause it's so informative.
A hundred percent.
And I, of course will put alink, um, to the website so you
can do that.
But.
I'm so curious.
Like just, anybody, if you're onLinkedIn,
Jenn (32:14):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (32:15):
you see just every day this narrative about people and
like, I'm applying for hundredsof jobs, like all this jobs and
like AI and all this stuff.
So, um, if you're not familiarright now, there's a, a lawsuit
that's about to be heard relatedto Workday and like them using
ai.
To filter, um, their applicantsand that the AI as an agent of
(32:40):
these companies is biased, whichwe do know, like AI learn, going
back to what we talked about,society, right?
Like AI learns what it gleansfrom society.
So by its very nature, it isalso going to be biased because
it is learning biasedinformation, right?
Jenn (32:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because how it's being built.
So, and I always, I tell peopleoften that when it comes to AI
you have to remember two things.
One is people who are buildingthese software, they still have
to pay attention to their ownbiases as well, because it feeds
(33:16):
into the thinking and the logicin this.
And then second, I alwaysrecommend that if employers are
using AI.
That they do not replace it fromthe real work.
That has to be done withidentifying your own biases too,
because you're just delaying theinevitable.
Eventually, they're gonna meetyou and, and your team, and if
(33:36):
you, if you're still nottraining them to identify their
own biases, you're still gonnarun into issues down the line.
Dr. Tami (33:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I am.
So yeah, we're on part three offour.
Jenn (33:51):
I just approved part four today, so part three came, came
out today I think.
Um, and then part four will beout next week.
Dr. Tami (34:01):
Yes.
So y'all like I Well, it'll bereleased out.
It'll already be released.
So you need to go back and readpast issues by the time this
podcast comes out.
But like, and, and
Jenn (34:11):
Thank you.
Dr. Tami (34:12):
Yes.
And, you know, pay attention,because these are important
things, like, I think it's easy,like we were talking about, to
get, into the weeds witheverything that's happening and
like you don't have to.
Teach everyone.
You don't have to be intoeverything, but pick some things
that are important to you tocontinue and to learn about.
Um, get Jenn's book, the EquityEdge to to help you.
(34:37):
Um, anything else Jenn, youwanna share about your book that
I didn't ask you?
Jenn (34:44):
So in the very end we started talking about, you know,
throughout the book we talkedabout who is qualified.
It is this, it's this questionthat I want all of your
listeners to think about.
This, everywhere we go, we'reasking the question, who is
qualified even outside of theworkplace.
It's more than who's qualifiedfor this position.
(35:06):
It's who's qualified to be mybestie, who's qualified to be my
partner in life, who's qualifiedto be my um, business coach?
We're always asking thequestion, who was qualified?
You know, any of the lensthrough which we're qualifying,
people still has bias attachedto it.
(35:26):
So if we keep thinking that it'sjust about how we show up in the
workplace, we're missing thebigger picture.
It's a human factor, and that'swhat, um, I want people to be
able to understand as they'relooking at the Equity Edge here
too.
So, thank you.
Dr. Tami (35:39):
Oh, you are so welcome.
I love that.
I love We can't, yes.
Humans are so necessary we can'tbe replaced.
Right?
And Lord knows we've seen enoughmovies.
What happens when we try, likeit's not a good idea.
Awesome.
Well, I want you all to, youknow, put in the show notes, uh,
(36:00):
information to get connectedwith Jenn if you are interested
in her services, A link to herbook, her free resource, she
mentioned.
I feel like you kind of gave afinal tip.
It was really related to yourbook, but do you have one kind
of final tip you wanna give, uh,to the listeners today before we
wrap up?
Jenn (36:15):
I would just say stay connected to us.
You can just go to jennifertardy.com where we have so many
free resources and things there.
So if, if you're just interestedin how to get your feet wet and
what more you can do, just stayconnected to us as well, and we
can, we can keep you on theright path.
Dr. Tami (36:32):
Yes.
I love that.
Well, thank you, Jenn, forjoining me today.
Thank you listeners for tuninginto another episode of the
Equity Hour.
As you know, you can findeverything in the show notes and
make sure you're using yourvoice today.
Thank you, Jenn.
Jenn (36:48):
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate you.
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