Learning to Relearn: Building Identity-Affirming Classrooms

Episode Transcript
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Dr (00:00):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Equity
Hour with me, your host, Dr.
Tami.
I am so excited to bring anotheramazing equity educator to your
ears today and our newestepisode.
Today we have with us KwameSarfo Mensa.
Hello, Kwame.
Welcome.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah (00:20):
Hi Dr.
Tami.
How you doing?

Dr (00:22):
I'm doing great.
I'm doing great.
Lemme tell y'all a little bitabout Kwame.
Kwame is the founder of IdentityTalk Consulting, a global
educational consulting firm thatspecializes in developing K 12
educators into identityaffirming educators.
Rooted in the core values ofequity, empowerment, and
authenticity.
Identity Talk Consultingprovides a range of professional

(00:45):
learning experiences, includingkeynote speaking, virtual and
in-person trainings, leadershipconsulting and e-course to help
educators sharpen their culturalresponsiveness and anti-bias,
anti-racist practices.
Um, his latest book, Learning toRelearn, supporting Identity in
a culturally affirming Classroomhas received multiple awards and

(01:06):
we are gonna talk more aboutthat today and I'm super excited
about that.
So welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Dr (01:15):
Look, that was a bio I'm telling you.
I love it.
I love it.
Okay, we're gonna dive right in.
Um, as you know, Kwame, I alwaysstart with each of my guests
really talking about how theygot into the work of equity, a
little bit about their equityjourney because to me it is
really important for people tounderstand that this work isn't

(01:39):
a one and done.
It's not like a, I've done aworkshop, I've read a book, you
know, I've listened to a podcastepisode like this.
Right.
Not at all.
Exactly.
I've been doing this for over 25years.
I feel like I'm still alwayslearning something.
There are areas in which I havemore knowledge than others.
And so I always think it'sreally important for people to

(02:01):
know you can start where you areand then continue to go, you
know, from there.
And there's always so tosomething to learn, um, along
the way.
And so tell us a little bitabout your story and to getting
into this work.

Yeah.
So, um, I've been in educationfor 18 years.
Started my career as a middleschool math teacher
Philadelphia.
And then I eventually moved toBoston to continue my career
there.
So that's actually how I gotinto education to begin with.
while I was in the classroom, Ijust noticed a lot of

(02:39):
inequities.
Like I was very much aware of,the racism.
I, I saw the microaggressionsthat I experienced and other
students experience, and evensome of my colleagues of color
experience from others who are,uh, non melanated.
I, I saw that.
even experienced it myself.
So those were things that I wasvery familiar with.

(03:01):
But then you get into theseinequities and you realize that
you have students who come intoclassrooms like they have to be
a totally different person than

Dr (03:14):
Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensa (03:15):
authentically are.
And while I didn't have thelanguage that I have now to
articulate what was going on, Iknew that was a root cause for a
lot of the issues that weretaking place.
So when I transitioned abroadwith my family 2019, that's when

(03:35):
I was, that's when I say Istarted my journey because
initially I was going to get ajob with the international
school and it was a struggle toget my foot in the door.
So rather than force myself intothat space, I decided, all
right, how can I stay connectedto this thing I love called

(03:57):
education?

Dr (03:58):
Mm-hmm.

And I started a podcast, just like
your podcast.

Dr (04:02):
Yes.
Love a good podcast.

yeah, I figure I'm abroad.
I'm gonna be able to have accessto other educators who are
across the globe.
And I had just started reallygetting into social media and
following different teachers andyou had these teachers who were
showing off all the cool thingsthey were doing in their
classroom and giving tips andthings like that.

(04:26):
And I said, oh, that's dope.
Like, let me interview some ofthese people.
So December, 2019, I started mypodcast at Identity Talk
Educators Live.
And since then I've been able tointerview well over 200
different educators acrossdifferent nationalities,

(04:46):
different uh, linguisticbackgrounds, different cultural
backgrounds.
And I think as I started tointerview different people, I
was hearing these identitystories that they came in with,
I saw a common thread, which wasthe fact that they didn't have
the space within theirrespective school environments

(05:08):
to have conversations.
So my podcast became the spacewhere they were able to be a bit
more vulnerable.
They're able to be a bit moretransparent and honest about who
they were, who people perceivedthem to be

Dr (05:25):
Mm.

spaces.
how did they navigate life withall this going on, how did it
make sense of, of their livesand, and how does that inform
their worldview?
So I believe a lot of theconversations I had at the pod
in the, on the podcast reallyserved as the catalyst for me

(05:49):
writing my book, Learning toRelearn, which I know we're
gonna talk about, uh, because alot of the things I share in the
book stem from the learningsthat I receive from my guests
over the past five and a halfplus years.
so that's really where myjourney started.

Dr (06:10):
Yeah.
Oh, that's so powerful.
Right.
And as you were talking, I waslike, absolutely.
Like the perception of who youare when you're in a
professional space as amelanated person versus the
reality of who you are and howyou navigate those tensions.
And then that's also happeningwith students like who they need

(06:34):
to be, uh, need to be.
I say that in air quotes y'all,like, um, and who they really
are, and what is allowed oraccepted.
And, you know, there are so manynuances to that, that space of
identity, right?

Yeah.

Dr (06:48):
there's just so, so many places we could go.
We could have just an episodeabout that, like, right?
For sure.
For sure.
Oh my gosh.
Well thank you so much forsharing that story.
I think that's really powerful.
And I think I, I hear that alot, right?
People will be like, I wastalking to other people and it
made me think about X, Y, or Z,or, I'd never thought about that
that way.
And now I'm thinking about itthis way.

(07:10):
And that's one of the thingsthat I hope people get from just
this podcast.
I think that's one of the thingsthat's really important within
your book is to, you know,really understand.
Like sometimes we don't knowwhat we don't know until we know
it,

That's right.

Dr (07:24):
you know?
And I know there's always a lotof tension this may, around
bias, right?
Because some of theseexpectations, are rooted in
systemic inequities and youknow, racism to be really, you
know, hitting a button on thenose.
And you may or may not realizethat because whether you are a
melanated or non melanatedperson, because that's the

(07:47):
society in which you grew up in.
And so it just becomes what itis until you realize that's not
what it should be.
And so that's where bias comesin, and that's one of the things
I always like to talk about.
I'm like, everybody has bias.
All of us.
We're a human being.
We have bias, period, right?

(08:07):
That, that's just the nature ofhumanity.
The important thing is, do yourecognize it?
Once you recognize it, what doyou do with it?
How do you handle it?
How do you act on it?
How do you not act on it?
Like there are so many thingsaround recognizing systems, um,
biased systems and your ownpersonal bias, just having been

(08:31):
in the world because the worlditself has bias.

Of course.

Dr (08:36):
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.
And I think wasn't until Iremoved myself from that
classroom teacher setting Irealized how deeply entrenched
we are in an education systemthat perpetuates these biases
that we're speaking of,

Dr (08:57):
Yes,

It took me being out the classroom to have
those reflections.
Because one thing that you and Iknow is that when we're in the
trenches and doing the work, wedon't have time to have these
drawn out reflections.
We're calling parents, we'regrading papers, we are backwards

(09:21):
designing, we are, uh,

Dr (09:24):
looking at data.

redesign, looking at data, doing
assessments.
There is so much that that'sentailed when we talk about the
work of teachers.
So where's the time to do thisdeep reflection and come to this
epiphany?
For me, uh, when I was writingLearn to Relearn, I was not in

(09:46):
the classroom.
I had lots of time think back towhen I was in the classroom,
when I did engage in certainmicroaggressions, when I did
have certain biases aboutdifferent groups of people who
came from backgrounds that I didnot share personally.

Dr (10:02):
Mm-hmm.

That was really what it was for me.
And then I also thought about myown journey, uh, being a first
generation Ghanaian Americanpeople, assuming that because my
parents came from Africa, theyweren't educated.
me starting my first four gradeswith an IEP and being in a

(10:27):
self-contained special educationclassroom, people thought
because I had that label, thatwasn't smart.
So I had to fight through thatand overcome that.

Dr (10:41):
Yeah.

of course, uh, my family moved to Ghana,
well, I moved to Ghana with myfather and my youngest sister
after my sixth grade year,

Dr (10:52):
Mm-hmm.

even though this is my country, right?
I

Dr (10:57):
Yeah.

you see right there, I, I start to go
into school.
And even though I look like themphenotypically, eating all the
same cultural foods andeverything.
The minute I open my voice, oh,you're different.
So now the othering happens in aspace that supposed to feel like

(11:21):
home.

Dr (11:23):
Wow.

there is some isolation there.
Uh, there is some, oh, not thedivision, but they definitely
engage in, in that isolationwhere, all right, you're in this
space.
We are here.
And

Dr (11:40):
Yeah.

because I do come with a certain amount of
socioeconomic privilege

Dr (11:46):
Mm-hmm.

of the fact that I have an American
passport, because of the factthat.
I came from a household whereboth my parents were college
educated,

Dr (11:58):
Mm-hmm.

So like I understand that I'm able to
access certain spaces that myclassmates weren't able to
access.
Those were things that I wasvery much aware of, it made me a
bit self-conscious because Ididn't wanna be given
preferential treatment becauseof that.

Dr (12:15):
Yeah.

just wanna be a part of the, a part of the
crew.
I just wanted to be just one of,just, just like everybody else,
but realize that you're not,

Dr (12:26):
Mm-hmm.

pretend as if you are.
so I think for teachers, inorder for us to really
understand how education systemswork and how we play a role in
keeping these systemsfunctioning the way they've
always done, w.

(12:49):
Is that we have to do ourresearch, we have to ask the
basic questions, right?
Um, and it, it always comes downto the why.
The why.
Like, why

Dr (13:02):
Mm-hmm.

that they, we believe where these ideas
come from in our context.
Who fed these ideas to us at anearly age?
Was it our parents?
Uh, was it members within ourneighborhood?
Was it friends, family members?
Was it something that we watchedon TV or listened to on a radio

(13:27):
song that we to sing all thetime?
Like, we get these messages fromso many different points it
doesn't, and it is not until yousit down and really think back
to realize that, oh, I see whythis is problematic now.

(13:48):
I didn't, I didn't know thatbefore, but I do know now, and I
still have these moments, evennow as an adult, I still have
moments where it's like, oh,like yo, they used to be my
song.
They used to be singing all thetime.
And then all of a sudden yourealize, oh yeah, I probably
should have been singing that.

(14:09):
Oh, we

Dr (14:09):
Well.

this cartoon or this TV show.
Oh, okay.
shouldn't have been watchingthat neither.
So I think the more you start toclean those lenses,

Dr (14:23):
Mm.

the more you realize that, alright, there are
certain things that we need tointerrogate

Dr (14:32):
Yeah.

our world.

Dr (14:34):
Yeah.
I love that idea of clean, the,clean the lenses.
There was a period of time whereI was a professor working with,
uh, pre-service teachers and, weread some of Lisa Del's work and
her book, and we read, PeggyMcIntosh is Unpacking the

(14:55):
Invisible Knapsack.
And,

Yeah.
Yeah.

Dr (14:57):
you know, and that's exactly like what some of these future
teachers said.
They were like, it was like,they're like, I feel like my
rose colored glasses have beentaken off and I have put on a
new set of eyes.
And they would come back andjust start noticing things that

(15:21):
they had not noticed before.
Just like what you said.
And I think that that speaks to.
The human experience, right?
Because once we learn something,we start to notice it.
It even things like if you thinkoutside of this conversation,
it's just like you get a newcar, you're interested in a car
or something, and now all of asudden you see this car

(15:43):
everywhere because you now arethinking about it, right?
Those cars were always there.
Right.
Always.
You just didn't necessarilynotice them.

Mm-hmm.

Dr (15:55):
I think that's one of the important things for me.
Like, and I think that's one ofthe important things about this
work and that what you'retalking about is noticing and
being able to start to name,noticing and naming and then
what do I do now?
Like what is the, the shifts Iam, I'm curious, um,'cause you
mentioned, you started to thinkof, you know, some examples when
you got outside of the classroomthat you might not have noticed

(16:18):
when you were in the classroom.
What are some, what are a couplethings that you could share with
people that you notice once youkind of were able to step back?

Yeah.
Um, I, I think for one, oneexample that comes to mind
immediately is like, when youthink about just students
transitioning through thehallways,

Dr (16:45):
Mm-hmm.

why do to be in a line.
I grew up, I mean, I grew uphaving to be in line to go from
one place to another, and I justthought, that's what you're
supposed to do.
I never questioned it because Isaw every teacher of mine

(17:09):
organize their class that waywhen they're transitioning from
one area to the next.
But then when I became ateacher, I realized, yo, this
doesn't make much sense.
Why can't I just walk all over?
I mean, yes, in some cases youwanna create space for those who
are oncoming.
I get that part, but does haveto be like a, a perfect line if

(17:31):
there's one student that if thisis the line and one student is
like this, I get penalized forthat?
Should a student get penalizedfor that?

Dr (17:40):
Right.

still for the oncoming students to go
through without any issues likethat?
That's what I'm saying, likeit's stuff like that.
Then, um, also with regard tolike uniform policy, which is a
bit controversial.

Dr (18:00):
Mm-hmm.

One instance, I understand why we do
wear uniform, but I also believetoo that a lot of it is kind of
stems from, I think about evenlike the boarding school era
with indigenous schools, howpeople, how indigenous people,

(18:25):
indigenous children were fromtheir reservations

Dr (18:28):
Mm-hmm.

they were placed in these schools where
their is tripped, theirtraditional regalia and their,
and their, um, attire

Dr (18:41):
Mm-hmm.

allowed to wear and

Dr (18:43):
They cut their hair.

going on their hair as well.
So we think about even with a.
Black and brown folks, when youthink about Crown

Dr (18:51):
Mm-hmm.

like why should I get penalized for
having locks in my hair?

Dr (18:56):
Mm-hmm.

know, why can't A have an Afro?
You

Dr (19:01):
Mm-hmm.

like, why is that problematic?
How does that have any impact ontheir ability to perform
academically?
Why does that, why is that adistraction for adults in those
settings?
a lot of these things that wesee in our classrooms, in our
school communities, they all goback to history

Dr (19:23):
Oh

and all go back to history.
And that's the reason why I feltlike it was important for me to
write this book.
Because around the time when Iwas reading anti-racist books,
it was always written in likegeneralities.
There are some good books outthere, but you didn't really
have a book that really.

(19:47):
Dug deep into the historicalorigins of the policies that we
experienced in that K 12systems.

Dr (19:56):
yeah.

I also didn't have a book that really
touched on that manifested ineach of the main historically
marginalized communities.
So for example, I made theexample of the indigenous and
native communities, how, how arethey impacted by the K 12
system?
And we talk about AsianAmericans and Pacific Islanders.

(20:19):
How are the youth within thosecommunities impacted by the K 12
system and Latinx students,Hispanic students, how are they
impacted by that?
Right?

Dr (20:33):
Mm-hmm.

And so on and so forth.
And then you can throw in yourL-G-B-T-Q-I-A communities.
um, your Neurodiversecommunities, students who have
disabilities, like they all,they all stem from history.

Dr (20:49):
Yes.

And in order to understand why the system's
the way it is, you have tounderstand the history.
So that was why felt like it wasimportant for me to do that
research.
And it's the reason why half ofthe book is about that.
And then the second half is allpractical.
Because in order for you tounderstand how to approach
different communities, you gottaknow the history of that

(21:11):
community

Dr (21:11):
Yes, yes, yes.
And you know, that just speaksto, again, like the importance
of this work.
Like it takes time andintentionality.
You can't just, um, you know,hop in and be like, oh, I wanna
do this.
Lemme just do an identity mapwith my kids.

(21:32):
So you do an identity map andthen, and then you do.
And that's it.
Like, that's where it goes.
Like, what are, what are youdoing with that information?
Why are you asking them?
I mean, that's first of all, avery vulnerable, exercise or can
be for certain students, right?
Um.
How much of, what do they wannashare with you?
But you're doing this identitymap for what?
So then you go back to treatingthem all the same?

(21:55):
Um, gosh, the, I'm a little allover the place right now, but I
keep like thinking about thewalking in the line because when
I walked in a school, we had towalk in a line and we had to
walk.
Our students were supposed tohave their hands behind their
back as they were walking.
Like, so they had,

What's going on?

Dr (22:11):
they had to.
Mm-hmm.
So they weren't touching any, sothey weren't touching anybody.
But I want everyone to thinkabout that.
Like, and I was a baby teacherwhen this happened, and I just
think about that.
Like, we are asking students towalk in a line with their hands

(22:33):
behind the back.
What visual does that give you?
What is that emulating?
Within a school, which should bea safe space.
But that doesn't feel very safeto me,

It doesn't feel safe at all.
It, it doesn't,

Dr (22:52):
No, and you were talking about uniforms and the same
school that I worked in,

Yeah.

Dr (23:01):
didn't have uniforms when I first started.
And then because again, it beuniforms became as an exercise
of control.
Exactly.
Like what you were talkingabout.
You know, the student, oh, wedon't wanna have any problems
because of this.
Like the students wereexpressing their individuality
with their clothes.
That's what kids do.
This was a middle school toolike they're finding themselves.

(23:21):
That's what we do as people.
There are, there's.
Dress, food, all of thesethings, right?
Hair, all of these things are apart of our individualized
expression of ourself, but alsoconnected back to, you know,
cultural roots a lot of thetimes too, right?

Sure.

Dr (23:37):
So we wanna strip all of that.
We stripped all of that.
They all had to wear uniforms.
We're like, oh, it'll be easier.
It'll be easier, it'll be lessthings for, but I'll tell you
what I don't know about yourstudents and uniforms.
But mine kept trying to findways to still individualize
their uniform

Mm-hmm.

Dr (23:55):
and how they, as much as possible within trying to stay
in the rules.

Yeah.
You know what it is kind oflike, uh, French Prince of Bel
Air when will just wore hisblazer inside out.

Dr (24:14):
Yes.

wearing the uniform and he still looks
pretty good.
It's still the uniform.
He just wore it inside outbecause he needed to express his
individuality.

Dr (24:24):
Mm-hmm.

It wasn't defiance, it didn't hurt
anybody.
Everybody went about theirbusiness.
But if you were to do that in,in real life, of course this was
a sitcom.
But if

Dr (24:37):
Right.

that in real life, the amount of vitriol
certain administrators will haveagainst that student.
And I, I've

Dr (24:48):
Oh,

my own too.

Dr (24:50):
I've seen it too.
Like I could just, it's like I'mgoing back in time and like I,
you know, um, it's like the bodykeeps score.
I dunno if you, but I feel likeit's, like it's going back in
time because that was really ahard time for me because I
didn't care.
Like, I don't, I really didn'tcare.
Like y'all, why are you in thesechildren's face?

Mm-hmm.

Dr (25:15):
You're an adult.
First of all, they're a childand you're in their face because
they're what they want.
One thing, one part of theirshirt, untucked, and one part is
tucked in because of whateverreason.
Right?

Yeah.

Dr (25:32):
Is that what we're here for?
We're here to police tucking inshirts, or we're here to educate
and help students learn.

And as you mentioned that it's something
that talked about in the introof.
book is Education versus schooland conversation, right?

Dr (25:55):
Mm-hmm.

And I'm thinking about even my own K 12
schooling and the fact that youdidn't have to be a strong
academic student in order to getyour diploma.

Dr (26:10):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.

If you are just a compliance student, if
you simply listen to what yourteacher told you to do, you'll
graduate without a problem.
At the minimum, you'll graduate.

Dr (26:25):
Yep.

You may not have the highest GPA, but you'll
get a diploma.
And it was the same thing withcollege.
Think about when we went tocollege.
Think about that one course wetook that was kicking our
behind.
And, you know, midterms, what'scoming up?

(26:47):
You looking at your, yourcurrent grade in the class, and
you have to make a decision,should I bail out now and just
take the course in the summer?
Or should I just take thismidterm to see how I perform?
And you hope that you could dothat before the deadline to drop
the class.

Dr (27:07):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yes.
Very real.
Very real.

you're learning how to navigate.

Dr (27:12):
Mm-hmm.

here's another thing too.
Office hours.
Let's talk about office hours.
You struggling in a class, butyou show up every day.
You raise your hand, you'reclearly engaged with what's
going on.
You go to professor's officehours week.

(27:35):
Hey, oh, professor, I got thisquestion on this thing.
Can you, can you help me outwith this?
help you out.
They see that you have theeffort.
Finals come.
You still may be struggling alittle bit.
Maybe a lot of kids arestruggling.
What does a professor do?
Curve the grade.

Dr (27:55):
Mm-hmm.

Now you've passed, but why did you pass?
You didn't pass because you,you, um, not for lack of a
better term, mastered thecontent.

Dr (28:07):
Mm-hmm.

You passed the class because you knew how
to navigate the system.
You knew that by going to officehours, you were showing
investment in this professor'sclass, given the professor the
idea that you truly care.
So it's not even so much aboutthe content, sometimes it's

(28:29):
about the effort.
Of what you're doing.
I, I'll tell you this, like Iwas a math major in college.
My major GPA was barely over a2.3, and I was a math major, but
I graduated cum laude because Iwas getting like 3.5, 3.6 on my

(28:55):
other classes that were outsideof my major.
And for some of those classes, Iwasn't the strongest student.
But I went to class every day.

Dr (29:04):
Mm-hmm.

I didn't miss classes.
made sure to get there on time.
But this is what it is though.
It's it's compliance.
It's all about compliance.
It's all about how you navigate,know how to navigate the system.

Dr (29:19):
Mm-hmm.

That's a different type of knowledge.

Dr (29:23):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Oh, I, oh, compliance.
I, I think about that a lot inour current education system
because we tend, and I say weonly because I've been a part of

(29:44):
the system, right?

Mm-hmm.

Dr (29:47):
And, and educators ask students to comply and do things
that they don't necessarily doas adults.
They are unable to execute themas adults.
Because there are unreasonableexpectations on a person, and I

(30:08):
don't know if there's enoughthinking about this compliance,
you know, option.
Like, I'm gonna use the example,like if you're doing, and I've
done, and I know you have tworight?
Professional developmentsessions, or you know, with
educators, you're laughingbecause like, you know where I'm
going with

you

Dr (30:25):
this.

Keep

Dr (30:26):
I know,

where

Dr (30:27):
I know,

too.

Dr (30:28):
And you're doing that and they're, they're doing 50
million, 11 other things.
They're talking, they're ontheir phone.
They're like, this, this, youknow, you're right.
You're, you, you ask them tohave a small little group
discussion.
Right.
Because it, and they go and talkabout something else.
Okay.

(30:48):
So I'm not saying all that toknock teachers.
What I'm saying is y'all don'teven do what you're asking
students to do because that'snot human nature.
Like you're around people.
Humans are social.
And then we ask kids to comeinto a school space where
they're not allowed to talk likewhat?
You know?
So I always would be like,that's how, that's how

(31:10):
conversation works you guys.
If you have somebody to have aconversation in a small group,
and this is the question you'veasked them, they will talk about
part of that.
But part about our brain is itconnects to other things and
then it makes'em think ofsomething else.
And then you talk about that,and then eventually it circles
back to how that connects to thetopic.
But you happen to walk by whenthey're off, quote unquote off
topic, and you're like, oh, Ican't let my students do group

(31:32):
work anymore.
Right.
Or they're looking at theirphone, like adults look at their
phone more.
Same amount as kids do at thispoint.
Like everybody's looking attheir phone.
So what I'm, where I'm goingwith this is right, like we, we
participate in a different waythan what our expectations are
because of this compliancething.

We're straight.
Hypocrites.

Dr (31:53):
Oh, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
Because, you know, or like sitstill, like, I always laugh
because like, my students inclass would be like this, right?
And then they would ask thelittle kids to like, you need to
sit still on the rug.
I mean, I have an, my own childwhen he was in kindergarten, he,
he came up, I was actuallypicking him up that day.
He was so excited to tell meabout his day and his teacher's

(32:15):
like, I need to tell yousomething.
And I had, I had to like tellher not to ever interrupt him
when he's excited about his dayto tell me something bad.
But what she had to tell me badwas he didn't, he didn't sit
still for 45 minutes while theywere on the rug doing something.
I said, wait a minute, you'retelling me that my, um,
6-year-old didn't sit still for45 minutes?
And you're surprised about that,

I mean, he's six.

Dr (32:34):
that part.

Is it developmentally appropriate a
6-year-old to be able to sitstill for X amount of minutes?

Dr (32:42):
Yes.

I got a 7-year-old who can't always sit
still.
There's nothing wrong with him.
He's seven.

Dr (32:50):
Yes.
And I think when we're talkingabout compliance, and this is
what I've seen over like the,you know, 25 plus years I've
been in education, what theexpectations were when I started
and where they are now, and thepushback that's happened in
grade level expectations that isnot developmentally appropriate

(33:11):
for kids.
So we are now setting up them upto fail, if you will, right?
Because we're asking'em to dothings that they're not even
developmentally appropriate.
We're asking'em to sit still for45 minutes, which that teacher
is asking that because that ispart of a system that is asking

(33:32):
her to do that.
So here's the part, like what dowe do about that then you have
your book, you're gonna betalking, I know we talk about
these things, right?
But like at some point, theindividual educators, and
whether you're a teacher,whether you're an administrator,
whether you're a district law,like we have to decide that this
isn't working and we need to dosomething different.

Yeah, and I think there are a lot of
teachers who recognize that itisn't working.
I don't

Dr (34:04):
Mm-hmm.

the

Dr (34:06):
Yep.

main issue.

Dr (34:07):
Mm-hmm.

The problem is.
Those teachers are fightingagainst forces which they cannot
fight against alone,

Dr (34:18):
Yeah.

and as a result, that's what leads to the
lack of teacher retention,particularly for teachers of
color, right?
That's what leads to teachermorale being down.
And quite frankly, is why a hardtime for this.
This is why schools have a hardtime recruiting teachers into

(34:42):
their buildings because thoseteachers anticipate the type of
mistreatment that they'llreceive.

Dr (34:50):
Yeah.

anticipating these issues that we're talking
about right now.

Dr (34:54):
Yeah.

So there's a lot of things that are
happening.
I, I think we have to redefinewhat success looks like.
What does it mean for a schoolto be successful?
I think people have their owndefinition what success is for
some, it's how things lookoperationally.

Dr (35:16):
Mm-hmm.

Can you do a fire drill?
Are students walking in line?
Are we posting things on thebulletin boards?
And that's, that's anotherconversation.
'cause I've seen someproblematic things with regard
to that.

Dr (35:31):
Oh yeah.

some people look at it from that way, from
that standpoint.
there are some who say, well,for me is making sure that our
school is a learning environmentthat is joyful,

Dr (35:46):
Yeah.

a learning environment that allows for
students to be themselves and toexpress themselves in a way that
allows'em to build their ownagency and criticality around
the issues that are happening inour world.

Dr (36:00):
Mm-hmm.

See, when you teach a child to be
compliant.
That is the biggest disserviceyou are doing for that child
because they never get theopportunity to learn how to
think for themselves.

Dr (36:14):
Yes,

And we're in a space where we need more
students to question what'shappening around them.

Dr (36:21):
yes,

Question.

Dr (36:23):
yes.

Wrap your head, Hmm, this doesn't look
right.
Well, why does it not look rightto you?
Let's go deeper.
Like, we need more of that.
As opposed to, no, you can't saythis.
No, don't do that.
Uh, no, this is how we do it.
'cause I said so like we, weneed less of that.

(36:47):
We need less of that.

Dr (36:49):
Y Yes, yes, absolutely.
And I am concerned that we get,we're getting further and
further away, or let me say itthis way, not actually in
overall, especially with certainpopulations of students getting
further and further away fromcriticality and critical

(37:11):
thinking

Mm-hmm.

Dr (37:13):
too.
Learn and explore history.
History is so important.
The humanities are so important,and if the current environment
isn't an example of that rightnow, right?
When you don't understandhistorical happenings and it's
repeating itself in front of youand you can't even see it

(37:33):
because you've never had theopportunity to engage critically
with learning these pieces likewe are pushing the curiosity out
of kids.
I have been in, in more schoolswhere teachers are frustrated
because.
They're bringing in more of ascripted curriculum.

(37:55):
Like they're taking theprofessionalism out of the
profession, number one.
So that's going back to whatyou're saying, that it's hard to
recruit people and keep peopleto stay when they don't feel
like they're valued.
And then you have students whoare quite frankly, bored because
if you're doing the same thingevery day, like filling in a
blank, like underline that.
Like I, I always, I always tosay this to my pre-service

(38:18):
teachers, if you are bored, yourstudents are definitely bored

Oh yeah,

Dr (38:22):
And then that's when the behaviors happen.
But when you are havingengaging, thoughtful, critical
thinking, exploring,experimenting, why do you think
students love like to go doscience class and like dig in
and do stuff, right?
Because they get to use theirbrain like, and that's what
humans are meant to do.
And we're like, no, no, we don'thave time for that.

(38:43):
We don't have time to explorethis.
Or we need to just memorizethese things and regurgitate
them and.
I'm talking in such broadgeneralities right now, and this
isn't everywhere, but when wesee the push towards that, when
we see the push towards, you canonly read certain things and it

(39:04):
excludes, coming back to theidentity piece, excludes certain
identities, and those identitiesstill exist inside of our
educational spaces, and they'realready low in representation in
the first place.
I don't know, I, I feel likewe're on a train that's running
towards the edge of a cliff withthe tracks run off and there's

(39:26):
no more tracks and.

Yeah, I, I agree with that part.
I definitely do.
Um, and I think it's toughbecause you mentioned how we do
our scripted curriculums, whichis not necessarily a bad thing.
I think as a, as a, teachersupervisor, as someone who has
dealt with pre-service teachers,I think you're someone that's

(39:51):
first coming into the space, ascript, a scripted curriculum
could be your best friend untilyou develop your own identity
and you start to learn how tosupplement.
But before you can get to thatpoint, you gotta have the
content knowledge, number one,you have to have an
understanding of.
Your curricular framework,whether you're doing Common

(40:12):
Core, whether you a scienceteacher, you're doing next
generation standards, whateveryour content area is, you gotta
know that,

Dr (40:20):
Mm-hmm.

you know?
But I do, I do feel that thereare a number of teachers who
don't believe that those fill inthe blank, those low level kind
of fill in the blank type ofexercises are beneficial to
students, but they do it becausethey're within a system.

(40:47):
Once again, that forces them to,that forces them to not be able
to pace the way they want to.

Dr (40:56):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.

an inclusion class, if I have students with 5
0 4 plans, students have IEPs,if I have students who are
learning English.
As a second language in this oneclassroom, you can't expect me
to finish a unit within thethree days that you say it
should be done.
I'm gonna need at least two moredays to get through this unit.

Dr (41:22):
Mm-hmm.

But here's the flip side of that.
the beginning of the schoolyear, you are being asked to
submit a student learning goal,a professional practice goal.
It doesn't matter what stateyou're in,

Dr (41:37):
Yeah.

and student learning goal, it may be
something to the effect of, Iexpect, um, a 20% increase in my
student scores from the yearbefore based off of these
assessments based off of thisdata, blah, blah, blah.

(42:00):
You submit that to yourprincipal,

Dr (42:02):
Yeah.

now you're being held accountable for that.
So what does that mean?
Oh, do wanna do this exploratorytype of lesson, but I gotta get
through all these different UIhave to get through all these
different objectives for thisunit before this interim
assessment, which is gonna counttowards my goal that I submitted

(42:27):
to the principal.

Dr (42:29):
Mm-hmm.

This is what I, I've been through this myself
where I was, I was doing thingsthat I knew were not beneficial
to students, but at the sametime, I gotta keep a job.

Dr (42:47):
That is real.

You know what I mean?
Like,

Dr (42:50):
Yes,

I

Dr (42:51):
absolutely.

I got a baby boy at this time.
I gotta do what I can to keepthis job.
So if I have to do this, I'mgonna do it, I am gonna try to
sprinkle in some of the thingsthat I want to do.
I will sprinkle it in.

Dr (43:06):
Mm-hmm.

Or better yet, do those things after we've
gone through all the major testsbecause we all know that the
state test is a Super Bowl, andonce it's done, you could do
whatever you want pretty muchfor the

Dr (43:21):
Look,

month and a half.

Dr (43:24):
the, the, the high pressure Super Bowl that we place on, on
everybody, it's uh, like

I mean,

Dr (43:32):
the, the stress of a snapshot in one day.
You know, the difference isteachers don't get paid millions
of dollars while the people inthe Super Bowl do.

they, they don't, unfortunately,

Dr (43:44):
No they don't.
It's a little flipped.
It's a little backwards.
But no, I absolutely agree withyou.
I do think, and I hear and talkto teachers all the time that
are very frustrated, but again,they need their job.
They actually want and lovebeing a teacher.
And so I think that comes backto what we're saying, like,
right, how do we take what weknow that isn't working or isn't

(44:06):
best for kids, but also best,right for the educators in the
space either.
How do we do that?
What are your thoughts?
Like how,'cause you're right,there are systems in place that
an individual teacher can'tnecessarily change'cause they
only have control of what theyhave control over.
Um, but this collective, I don'tknow, how do we come together?

(44:31):
Do you have thoughts on that?

I, I do, I definitely have some thoughts,
and this is something that I'vetalked about on other podcasts
too, and it is actually one ofthe main reasons why I started
my consultancy.
Identity Talk Consulting.
tagline for Identity Talk isStay true to the teacher in you,

Dr (44:50):
Mm

to the teacher and you.
What does that mean?
It means, regardless of what'shappening around you.
You gotta stay true to yourmoral compass, true to your
guiding principles, whateverthey may be, however you define
them for yourself as aneducator, and do what's best for
students.

(45:12):
And sometimes what's best forstudents may, may be you not
being in a classroom with them.
Let's, let's, let's talk aboutthat.

Dr (45:23):
mm.

You know, I know it sounds ironic because, I
mean, I'm talking to somebodywho, who's working with
pre-service teachers and you'reencouraging'em to be in the
classroom and do all thisincredible work.
But I think what's mostimportant is we have to get
teachers into this pipeline whounderstand that there are

(45:49):
systemic challenges that theywill encounter

Dr (45:53):
Oh yeah.

understand that.
If they go right instead ofleft, even though going right
was the best decision to makefor their students, they're
going to suffer someconsequences that are totally
unjust.
If you go, if you are aware thatthis is going to happen and you

(46:16):
still wanna be a teacher, go forit.
But I think what I've come torealize is be able to do so much
more when you're outside of thatspace because the reality is
that system that we are in wasnever designed black and brown

(46:38):
children to thrive.
It was never designed for thatto happen.

Dr (46:42):
Right.

once you come to that realization, that
easily informs how you navigateSaid system.
Or whether or not you removeyourself from the system and do
something that's totally nottotally different, but you do
more of what you wanna do.
There's a reason why

Dr (47:00):
Mm-hmm.

have micro schools.
There's a reason why we havehome schools,

Dr (47:05):
Mm-hmm.

and there are a lot more of those options
now post pandemic.

Dr (47:09):
Yeah.

There's a reason why educators become
consultants or coaches

Dr (47:16):
Yes.

because there's a level of autonomy
you're able to have that you'renot able to get when you're
within that systemic space.

Dr (47:28):
So,

for those who are entering this teacher
pipeline, they need to come withthat understanding, number one.
But we have to be able to bereal with them about that and
not sugarcoat anything.
And we gotta equip them withtools like we have to get them
to see that when they go intothis space.

(47:49):
They're not, they arecommodities, not employees.
You're a commodity.

Dr (47:59):
Hmm.

You see what I mean?
Like

Dr (48:01):
Yeah.

you to approach it in that way.
And I know this is kind ofveering off to a different
conversation, but it's stillrelevant.

Dr (48:10):
Oh, totally.

Like think about this, Dr.
Tami.
The stuff that we create asteachers, the lesson plans, the
projects, the demos, theworksheets, the amount of time
we spend supplementing, we doall that for free.

(48:33):
Just to submit a lesson plan forthe week, just to submit a unit
plan.

Dr (48:38):
Mm-hmm.

All this intellectual property is
monetizable.
When you decide be a goodSamaritan, when you decide that
you're gonna be someone that'sinvested in your school
community, you know what?
I love my colleagues so much.
I wanna do this, this PD sessionfacilitate I believe it's gonna

(49:06):
make us better as a team.

Dr (49:07):
Yeah.

be true, you know what?
There are people out there thatare doing the same thing you
doing and they getting paidmoney doing it.

Dr (49:17):
Yes.

But I I, I, I'm not going to go too deep
into that, but all that to say,we we're not getting paid enough
already and we're not gonna beput in a position where we gonna
be work, we gonna be workinglike slaves

Dr (49:35):
Mm

and then still be expected to come back
every year and produce at thesame high level to the point
where it is at the expense ofour social emotional welfare.

Dr (49:46):
Yeah.

And when we are in that position, students
end up suffering.
That's the byproduct of that.

Dr (49:54):
Oh, absolutely.

because we are overexerting ourselves we're
producing and producing andproducing.
Only to either find ourselvesfurther in debt because if we're
gonna be honest, they tell you,oh man, I can't believe I'm
going down this path, but I'mgoing there.

(50:18):
They tell you, in order to moveup the step ladder or the pay
scale in your district, you haveto do more post-secondary
classes.

Dr (50:31):
Yeah.

have to get an additional cert, which does
require you to go back to schoolmore times than not

Dr (50:37):
Yes.

in order to get the additional cert, which
means you have to pay money.
For a licensure test, at leastone licensure test, sometimes
more than one, depending on whatyou getting the license for.
And then you don't always getgrant money for that.
You may get reimbursement ifyou're lucky, but the

(51:00):
reimbursement caps at a placewhere you are not gonna be able
to cover all those expenses thatyou've incurred.
But this is like a, A perpetualcycle.
It's a perpetual cycle.
we find ourselves in this spacewhere we're producing

(51:21):
overproducing,

Dr (51:23):
Mm-hmm.

we're not getting the wages that we should
get for that, and then we'restill find ourselves in debt.
15, 20, 25 years down the line.
We still paying

Dr (51:36):
We ain't gonna talk about my student loan debt, but

I'm a, I'm a, I'm gonna shut up

Dr (51:41):
No, don't shut up.
But here's, here's look.

even that, Dr.
Tami, the way they did me, man,I did my five years, like they
tell you to do it.
Teaching a Title one school forfive years in a row.
did that.
here's how they got me.
They got me, because the firstfour years I taught was in
Pennsylvania.
'cause remember I started inPhiladelphia.

(52:07):
My license was in elementaryeducation, K to six.
So I was a sixth grade teachermy first four years in
Pennsylvania, but it was withinmiddle schools.
So then I'm thinking, all right,I'm gonna go to Boston.
I get my Massachusetts license,which is in middle school

(52:27):
mathematics, K to eight.
I do my first year, which is myfifth year overall.
Right.

Dr (52:34):
Yeah.

I submit my paperwork, I get my, uh,
references from my pastprincipals, from all the schools
I've taught in, to my loanprovider.
They rejected me.
And the reason why is becausethey go by what the state says
you are.
So the state recognizing me as aelementary educator, k to six,

(52:58):
that I'm an elementary educator.
When I submitted my application,I put in secondary school
because was teaching insecondary school.
grade is middle school.

Dr (53:09):
Yeah.

is secondary.
But because in Pennsylvania, I'mclassified as an elementary
school teacher based on myinitial

Dr (53:21):
Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensa (53:21):
Pennsylvania.
I didn't get credit for thosefirst four years.
So as a result, I had to teachfour more years in order to get
my five.
It was under that middle school,uh, mathematics license, which
clearly says middle school,which is secondary.
So because the license said thatfor Massachusetts, I finally got

(53:42):
the credit and then it forgavemy loans after ninth year
overall in the classroom.
But

Dr (53:48):
look,

the bs.
That'd be happening

Dr (53:51):
look.
There's so much like don't getme started on PSLF and all that
stuff and like the nightmarethat is right now.
But I, I wanna, I'm gonna sayyou were talking and I was
thinking about this and I hadnever thought about it this way.
Like when we were talking aboutthe steps and like getting more
education, I totally did that.
I went back and got my master'sto move up, you know, increase

(54:12):
my salary.
But the one thing that I didn'tever think about, and I just
realized that right now, right?
And I don't know how many peopledo.
You don't ever look at the moneyyou're investing in the
education to get higher on thestep of the salary scale.
And does it actually pay off?
So yes, you're increasing yoursalary, but you've outputted
this money.
Are you actually ahead or areyou behind?

(54:34):
I don't know, right?
Because I, I personally at thattime did not look into that and
I don't know how many people do.
'cause you're like, oh yeah, Ineed to make more money, so I'm
gonna go do this.
And you don't necessarily do allthe math, you know,

that,

Dr (54:52):
you just,

too.

Dr (54:53):
you don't, you.

check this, but check this out though.
So yes, that part is true andyou've gone ahead and gotten.
Dual dual or triple certified,you've taken a class you're
supposed to take.
You are at the very top the payscale.

(55:14):
You cannot get any more moneyfrom this district.
You decide, all right, I wannacontinue to apply for other
positions.
I wanna be a coordinator orsomething like that.
Within my district.
You get punished for doing whatthey tell you to do and how they
punish you.
What they tell you.
They tell you, oh, I'm sorry youway too overqualified for this

(55:38):
position, but you've beentelling me all these years that
I should be going back toschool.
You been telling me all theseyears to get multiple certs so I
can be marketable.
Right.
Strong arm in me to do that.
I do that.
I get all my CPD credits and allthat.

(56:00):
You're not gonna tell me that Ican't even get a job because I
am overqualified.
So I'm getting punished fordoing the right thing, and now I
can't find a job to save my

Dr (56:12):
Yeah.

I've seen friends go through that.
Friends.
It is just, it's ridiculous.

Dr (56:22):
it's, it's wild.
It's wild.
Um, I, I wanna say one thingabout teacher ed and then I'm
gonna ask you to share a pro tipwith, um, the listeners.
I think you're absolutely rightabout teacher ed in that when
you are a professor in thatworld, showing and opening eyes

(56:46):
is really important.
And I think, and I can onlyspeak for myself and the
programs I was in, but it wasalso important on like, then how
do you navigate that tensionwhen you get there?
Because there's gonna be tensionbetween what you know is best
for kids and what you might bebeing asked to do.
And so what does that look like?
And, you know, I've always beena little feisty, so my students
would be like, what would youdo?
I said, well, you can'tnecessarily do what I would do
because I personally like.

(57:10):
Believe this and move in thisway, but that may or may not be
exactly how you move.
Right.
Like, you know, um,

Be willing to give up something.

Dr (57:21):
oh yeah, I got myself in trouble.
Right.

See what I'm saying?

Dr (57:25):
uh, but it was worth it to me because I'm like, you can't
be treated.
My students like that.
Um, but that's just me and mypersonality.
But I do think it's important.
Right.
And actually that was part of mydissertation.
Like we've taught them all thesethings.
What happens when they go outinto the school district?
That's what I was curious about,like what happens when they just
even go student teach and get inthis environment.
Right.
Because I'm curious.
We're telling'em all thesethings and you're exactly right.
That is why I shifted some ofthe things I do and how I do it,

(57:47):
because it gave me a differentlevel of access.
Because if I'm working directlywithin the system from outside
the system, I can make somedifferent changes than even
preparing people to go into thesystem, which is wild, right?
So I, I, I don't disagree withthat.
I don't want people leaving thesystem though.
We need you there.
But I think to me.

(58:08):
We need to find a way tocontinue to build this capacity
of those that are outside thesystem and inside the system to
facilitate this change.
I think your book is a great wayto do that.
You all need to go out and grabthat Learning to Relearn.
I will also link it, oh yes, Iwill link it in the show notes
for you as well.
But Kwame, I always love to endwith like a pro tip.

(58:30):
Like what is, we have talkedabout so many things, and again,
I think we could have like threemore episodes from the little
nuggets that we talked about.
Um, but what's one thing youwant everyone to kinda take away
that they could go and try anddo?
Um.

Hmm.
One, one pro tip.
I would say, um, number one,yes, there's so many things we
need to do as teachers, but I'lljust say it's so important to
just be present for yourstudents.

(59:04):
Get to know your students, buildgeneral relations with them.
If you just do that one thing,that's gonna go a long way for
you.
just gonna go a long way.
And be honest, when you seethose same students, 10, 15, 20
years from now, they're notgonna remember what you taught

(59:27):
them.
I was a math teacher for 10years and most of the students
who are now grown with their ownkids, they don't remember me.
For the math, yes, they

Dr (59:35):
Mm-hmm.

math teacher, but

Dr (59:37):
Right?

them the most,

Dr (59:39):
Yes.

was the jokes.
It was the fun times.
It was the way that they felthow I treated them when they
were in my classroom.
That's what they remember themost.
That's the legacy that I carry,and I am folks who listen to
this to try to aspire to carryon that similar legacy of just

(01:00:02):
building good relations withstudents because that's what's
gonna get the results thatyou're looking for.

Dr (01:00:08):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I always say, you bring the joy,so bring the joy.
Bring the connection.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah (01:00:14):
you go.

Dr (01:00:14):
Yes.
I love it.
Well, thank you all for joiningus for another episode of The
Equity Hour.
Please look in the show notesfor a link to Kwame's book and
stay tuned and remember to useyour voice today.

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