July 22, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode of The Equity Hour, Dr. Tami Dean welcomes Dr. Courtney Teague—leadership strategist, executive coach, and founder of CLT and Associates—for a dynamic conversation on transforming organizational culture through equity, inclusion, and shared humanity. With over 17 years of experience across corporate, education, and government sectors, Dr. Courtney unpacks what it really means to build inclusive systems where people don’t just survive—they thrive.
From uncovering mislabeling in special education to challenging performative equity statements in corporate culture, this episode explores how leaders in all industries can move from words to impact. You’ll learn the role of invisible bias, how data-informed decisions drive cultural change, and why “belonging” must be budgeted—not just branded.
Key Topics Covered:
- Why equity work is deeply personal and not just professional
- The difference between inclusion and conformity in workplace culture
- Why equity should be a strategic imperative—not a charity initiative
- Practical ways to create data-informed, trust-based environments
Perfect For:
- Education leaders & school district administrators
- HR executives & DEI practitioners
- Nonprofit directors & corporate change-makers
- Organizational development and culture strategists
Connect with Dr. Courtney Teague: https://cltandassociates.com/
👉 Let’s Keep the Conversation Going:
If you're ready to lead culture with intention—whether in your classroom or your boardroom—subscribe and share this episode. For more insights and upcoming events, visit https://dragonflyrising.org and follow The Equity Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Tami (00:00):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of
The Equity Hour with me or hostDr.
Tami.
I am so excited to have mynewest guest with us here today.
We have Dr.
Courtney Teague in the house.
Hey Courtney.
Dr. Courtney (00:16):
Hey, happy day.
Happy day.
It's a wonderful day to bealive.
Dr. Tami (00:20):
Yes, yes.
So lemme tell you all a littlebit about Dr.
Courtney.
She is a leadership strategist,executive coach, and the founder
of CLT and Associates, a firmdedicated to unlocking human
potential and buildingorganizations where people
thrive, not just survive.
Uh, amen to that.
Dr. Courtney (00:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (00:40):
with over 17 years of experience across corporate
education and governmentsectors, Courtney helps leaders
move beyond titles and intotransformational impact.
She partners with executives,entrepreneurs, and change makers
to develop leadership, drivecultural excellence, and
activate strategic growth, allwhile leading with shared
humanity at the core through CLTand associates.
(01:01):
Courtney isn't just shapingleaders, she's shaping what's
possible.
Dr. Courtney (01:07):
Hmm.
Dr. Tami (01:07):
Welcome to the show.
Dr. Courtney (01:08):
Oh my gosh, that bio sounds so amazing.
If I didn't know it was me, Iwould want to meet that person.
That that sound really good.
Dr. Tami (01:15):
Yes, it, it is.
I love, my favorite part is likeshaving what's possible,
Dr. Courtney (01:21):
Yes.
Dr. Tami (01:21):
Because you don't know what you don't know until you
take the time to meet andcollaborate with someone who can
help illuminate maybe some ofthe things that you haven't
quite seen yet.
Dr. Courtney (01:35):
Yep.
I mean, that's, that's what it'sabout.
I think life is meant to be in aspace of thriving and curiosity
and, and coming around the.
Coming around and being aroundpeople that could reveal your
invisible spots.
I won't say blind spots.
I will say invisible spotsbecause some things we just
cannot see because they areinvisible to us, but they're
(01:56):
present to other folks andthat's why I'm here.
Um, and that's who I want in mylife.
Folks like that.
Dr. Tami (02:04):
Absolutely.
I like that idea of an invisiblespot sometimes our life
experience, right?
It's just what we know,
Dr. Courtney (02:11):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (02:12):
it's not as clear as it would be to someone else.
It also, it makes me think ofthat, um, commercial, like the
nose blind commercial, likewe're,
Dr. Courtney (02:22):
Oh, when they started smelling the faze
commercial
Dr. Tami (02:24):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (02:25):
and they're smelling, and people was like,
oh no, I don't smell anything.
It's a pale full of garbageright there, but you smell faze
and that's all you know becauseyou can't smell your own trash.
Dr. Tami (02:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it was, it was invisible tome until someone was like, Hey,
uh, you might want to do alittle something, something or
think about this, or Have youthought about, about this?
So, okay.
Yeah.
I'm sure we're gonna dig moreinto that as we go.
But I do start every episodeTalking about the journey into
(02:57):
working when thinking about, youknow, inclusive spaces and
equity.
to me it is a journey.
It's not a sprint.
I think there's a misnomer outthere that like you go to a
professional learning, session,you have one session with a
coach, whatever, or it has to bethis big, grandiose thing.
But really it's aboutintentionality and learning and
(03:19):
a process over time, which tome, it's never done.
I mean, I've been doing thiswork for, you know, a quarter of
a century.
That sounds really long when Isay it that way.
Dr. Courtney (03:30):
Your season.
Your season.
Dr. Tami (03:33):
I'm
Dr. Courtney (03:33):
Your season.
Dr. Tami (03:34):
work.
I like that.
I'm gonna steal that.
Dr. Courtney (03:36):
It's all right.
You can borrow it.
It's more.
Dr. Tami (03:38):
Thank you.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
I'm totally gonna borrow that.
Um, yeah, so tell me a littlebit about your journey.
What has led you down this pathand prompted you to, you know,
become the founder of yourorganization's CLT and
Associates?
I became curious, went intocollege, um, and I said, okay, I
(04:01):
gotta go to school forsomething.
I know I wanted to be a teacher,but I didn't know what type of
teacher.
So while I was in college, Iwent back and forth.
I was like, computer scienceeducation, computer science
education landed on education.
But while in college.
I had a job working for an, anorganization called Volunteers
of America, and there I wasworking in group homes with
(04:23):
individuals who did not have aliteral voice.
These individuals were, I.
Lord, I, I hate to say it likethis, but like state property
where they had no family comingin to check on them.
They had various abilities,traumatic brain injury, um,
autism variability, and there Isaw where there was a need for
(04:44):
someone to be a voice for thosewho cannot speak for themselves
and represent themselves.
From there, I determine thatmajor of being a special
educator.
So.
I didn't enter this work througha textbook or a hashtag as many
people do.
I entered it through my life,um, as a special educator.
My first year I moved toAtlanta, Georgia, from Alabama,
(05:07):
and I had a student, I'll justuse its initials.
Ew, ew, did not speak.
I had a teacher assistant andshe said, oh, I've never heard
him speak.
I tried to speak Spanish.
The Lord knows I cannot speak alick of Spanish.
I can say, oh, no, do trace, andI was trying to speak and I
trying to speak in Spanish toanother student, and that
(05:29):
student, Ew, heard me speak inSpanish and he told me I was
stupid.
The teacher assistant turnedaround and said, I didn't know
that child had a voice.
I didn't know he could speak.
Okay.
I'm like, wait a minute, maybeI'm touched.
Touched by an angel orsomething.
So with this particular student,we began to converse Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (05:52):
and I laugh.
He laughed every day, like forthe next few weeks.
I said, something's not quiteright.
Why is this student in my class?
I pulled out this student'spaperwork.
He had a file cabinet full ofwork.
I spent weekends going throughhis paperwork, and I went and
(06:13):
looked at his assessments.
Come to find out this child cameto the United States from
Dominican Republic.
Never had a formal Englishintroduction.
They tested him in English.
By law, you're supposed to testa child in their native
language.
He spoke Spanish, so theyidentified him as a child with
autism, which it was not that itwas a language barrier.
(06:36):
And being that his family, someof his family, they were not,
um, citizens, US citizens yet.
So some of them was stay awayfrom the schools, but they knew
he had to go to school.
And that became a problem.
That became a big problem.
I got in some trouble.
Trouble and I'm gonna tell was
Dr. Tami (06:55):
I bet.
Dr. Courtney (06:55):
good
Dr. Tami (06:55):
trouble.
Dr. Courtney (06:56):
trouble.
John Lewis would've been happybecause I said you all Have
identified and put a label onthis child in which it does not
equate to where he is in hislife and who he is.
So he has been in thisparticular supposedly least
restrictive environment allthese years, which it was not
least restrictive because itwasn't the right school setting
(07:18):
or classroom setting, and it wasa disservice.
Then they said, oh, let's justgive him a LD eligibility.
You will not.
You will give him services insummer school to help him get
caught up, even though he maynot have reached where he should
have been at that particulartime, but you're going to give
him those supports because youfailed him.
That's the point.
(07:39):
When I think about equity,giving a child what they need,
giving a person what they needto be successful, you're not
moving the bar.
Dr. Tami (07:46):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (07:46):
people have a misconception of equity of
you're moving the bar and you'relowering the standards.
No, the standard can be righthere.
It's about giving people theresources they need to meet the
standard in respect thatunderstanding the systems, the
way that they were designed,they were designed by people
who.
Are the majority.
And so when those systems aredesigned by the people who are
(08:07):
the majority, why naturally theygot biases and not all biases
are bad, but those biases informsystems in which not everyone is
around the table, even thoughthe folks that should be around
the table can actually enhanceit and bring the natural
resources.
Dr. Tami (08:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that just brings up areally compelling point that we
see a lot in education, right?
The miss labeling of students,of them being, I'm gonna use the
word stuck for a lack of abetter word, in a particular
(08:42):
track because of a moment.
Like, we take the time right assomeone to take in the time to
really kind of understand whothis student is and the language
need, of the different path thischild could have had.
the beginning,'cause that'sexactly what you did.
(09:03):
You took time to understand theindividual needs of the student
in order to provide the best andmost equitable support.
Dr. Courtney (09:15):
Absolutely.
I took the time and I took itpersonal.
I took it personal.
And some may say, you know, youcan't take work personal.
Listen, equity is not work forme.
Equity is not abstract.
It's deeply personal, uh,because.
I am only as great as the peoplethat I support and help.
Dr. Tami (09:37):
Hmm.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Work is not supposed to bepersonal.
I don't think of, I don't thinkof this work as either.
Like I, um, think of it more as.
I'm gonna say my calling,
Dr. Courtney (09:58):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (09:59):
Because if we don't have people that are willing to
have the conversation tointerrogate the system, support
broadening who is heard, toadjust the system.
Then we're just gonna keep beinglike a hamster on a wheel, Going
(10:23):
around and around and around.
Um, I, I, were talking about themajority, and how the systems
are built for the majority, so.
Just curious as we areapproaching where we are
projected to have minority,majority in the United States.
(10:48):
Have you?
I think there's a lot ofpushback is coming because of
that.
Like people know that, and Ithink it's, it's bubbled up some
fear.
Um, but how do you think thatthat shift in dynamic in this
country might help shift some ofthe systems, if at all?
Dr. Courtney (11:09):
Oh yeah, people.
Fear is typically an outcome oftrying to look into the future
and trying to solve the futurewithout remaining present and
taking care of today.
When I think about 2043 andthere being a pivot or a shift,
I still have a wondering of,yes, we know where the majority
(11:29):
may lie today.
Will the majority still be thedecision makers?
Because we can have a shift.
We can have a shiftdemographically, but if.
The decision makers, there is nopivot shift in the people who
makes the decision, then wewould still be in the same
space.
Um, I do see to your point wherewhat we are experiencing now,
(11:55):
um, right now in our currentclimate that.
They're, they're enhancing, not,I would say enhancing.
They're refining the systemsbecause if they don't refine the
systems right now, when we getto 2043, there will be a, a
major pivot where the majorityis now the minority.
Like that's, I see.
(12:16):
That's what's happening with thesystems, like things that we are
experiencing even today, theywere designed 30, 40, 50 years
ago, and so.
If there is no shift inleadership, a shift in, uh,
dynamic of who holds thedecision, who holds the gavel,
(12:37):
we will still be in the samespace.
Because as we tend to see,history still repeats itself.
It's like it's repeating itselfright now.
If I think about civil rights,think about the segregated
restrooms and water fountains.
It's still the same.
It looks a little different.
Segregation and water fountains.
We may not have water fountains,but in one part of the community
(12:58):
or in the city.
They may not have a store whohave bottled clean bottled
water.
Still segregation.
It just looks a little bitdifferent.
The root is still there becausewe didn't attack the root.
We only been treating thesymptoms.
Dr. Tami (13:13):
Oh yes, absolutely.
I, I was having a conversationwith someone about that recently
because of the current climate,like asking if.
I have fear about, you know,hosting this podcast called The
Equity Hour
Dr. Courtney (13:27):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (13:27):
doing this work, and I said, absolutely not because
work.
changed.
We, it has always facedopposition.
Like it never went away, eventhough, you know, there was a
narrative.
Like we're in a post-racialsociety once we had Barack Obama
(13:48):
as president, like that was anarrative that was trying to be
put out, but the experiencedidn't actually.
Change.
And, and you know, my personaltheory is like, I think people
double down after, um, Barackwas president because fear of
losing this, this power.
(14:10):
that they've historically hadand, and, and done whatever they
can to keep.
And that's not unusual, right?
Like, you can look in acrossthe, the world that the people
in power try to stay in power.
Dr. Courtney (14:23):
Absolutely.
I, I think when we look at thiswork, and I'm doing my air
quotes.
Dr. Tami (14:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (14:31):
When we look at this work for one, I also look
at this as a business andstrategic imperative that is, is
vital, um, is vital.
Equity in its essence is notcharity because some people like
to equate equity with charityand, and giving back to the
(14:51):
community.
No, it's clarity.
When we think about leadershipand as you said, post Obama.
People doubled down.
Uh, some people doubled down forthe good, some people doubled
down for, uh, worse over thebad.
But when we look at leadership,leadership without inclusion, it
is, uh, it's about control.
(15:12):
I.
Dr. Tami (15:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (15:13):
About control to your point of being in power.
And so if you're not inclusiveand you're not including those
voices in which they are morelikely historically and
systematically marginalized,including them in those spaces,
you can do whatever you want andcontinue to do whatever you
want.
Um.
(15:35):
But I believe eight pound babyJesus sits high, look low in
everything that people think isgoing to happen.
It will eventually surface and,and it will, a boil will rise or
come to a head like mygrandmother say.
Dr. Tami (15:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (15:50):
because also in an effort to exclude equity and
exclude people, you're creatinga culture and you're teaching
behaviors.
And once you start teachingcertain behaviors, you're gonna
have a, an evolution that won'tbe televised on TikTok or
(16:11):
YouTube.
A revolution, not evolution.
Revolution.
My
Dr. Tami (16:17):
a revolution.
Um, so I wanna talk some a bitmore about this, about, you
know, building culture
Dr. Courtney (16:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (16:25):
And we think about building, an inclusive culture.
Could be in school, that couldbe in an organization.
I personally have noticed thatthere.
Is a misunderstanding about whatit truly means to be inclusive
and in a belonging space, versusactually more of a controlling.
(16:49):
Fit in air quotes, right.
For the environment.
Oh, okay.
I, I see I am, uh, tempt of akey area.
So let's, I know this is some ofthe work that you do, and I'm
just so curious to hear somethoughts from you on this.
Dr. Courtney (17:06):
I know I could say is blessed so heart.
Um, blessed heart when I thinkabout.
Creating a culture and in aspace of, like, even just with
belonging, because we can have,we can have diversity.
We have diversity withoutbelonging, and, oh, oh, I, I
(17:30):
notice something in my body.
I notice something in my bodybecause when I, I do the work
and I support folks withcreating an environment of
belonging.
I find that.
There is a conflict with corebehaviors and core values and
who a person is beyond theorganization.
(17:53):
I come to find that when I lookat organizations, in essence,
organizations are made of peopleand each person represents an
individual, and I see that theremay be.
Conflict when I do work withorganizations to let's do this
culture building, let's look atour culture.
How would you rate your culture?
I find that there is notalignment with even the
(18:17):
leadership.
And so of course the people thatreport to various leaders are
not going to feel like theybelong when they have to do some
cross collaboration.
And I find that core behaviorsand people being.
Focus on their wins and theirpersonal agenda causes a lot of
organizations to lose and notcreate a culture of belonging.
(18:40):
Now, on the other end, I haveworked with organizations where
we focus on culture as a way itis.
Culture was built into thebudget, not just like, uh, a
website where we, we believe inour people.
No.
Culture was a part of theirbudget.
Culture was a part of theirperformance.
(19:02):
It just like you had to meet asales quote or a sales goal.
Your data and your feedback fromthe people that you support,
that's a part of yourperformance and that's one
organization.
I can say I saw a shift becausethe leadership did not just put
out a statement, they made surethe systems were designed to
(19:23):
support the culture ofbelonging, and so.
When we did that work, we focuson rewarding the behaviors that
we wanted because with culture,it can go twofold.
Culture is built in behaviorsthat you reward.
If you reward the behaviors thatare not inclusive and does not
promote belonging, that's whatyou'll get more of.
(19:44):
And so if you're silent when itcomes to challenging people to
ensure that they, there aremeeting agendas.
Are inclusive, that they providespace for people to belong in
their meeting agendas in theirone-on-ones.
Then if you're silent, thenyou're telling them that I
tolerate a culture of exclusion.
(20:04):
And so that particular company,they put their money in their
systems in place because we arepast that level of.
Word play.
I don't care about your equitystatement.
If I look at your budget, if Ilook at your performance review
and I don't see that you'reholding space for people to hold
(20:26):
themselves accountable andempowering your staff to have
the language that they need topush back where needed, or to
acknowledge their leadership.
And we have a problem.
You're just doing word play.
You're doing word words withfriends.
That's what you're doing.
You're not giving the peoplewhat they need and you're not
(20:48):
creating the culture.
You, we gotta hold people inthat space.
We gotta hold them capable.
Not only just accountable,because equity.
Belonging, inclusion,accessibility, that's everyone's
responsibility.
Shared humanity is everyone'sresponsibility, not just
(21:11):
leadership.
Dr. Tami (21:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think you bring up such a.
Important point
Dr. Courtney (21:18):
mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (21:19):
I can think of a number of organizations, that
I've worked with where yes, theyhad the equity statement.
Yes.
They said we value, um,different perspectives and
ideas, and they say the on airquotes the right things.
(21:42):
And there's not an investment inhow to actually execute what
that's gonna look like notalways automatic.
Like that has to be learned insome ways.
'cause you know, we were justtalking about these systems.
These systems have been in place
Dr. Courtney (22:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (22:01):
a long time and we've all lived within them.
So sometimes we don't evennotice.
The system until, like what wewere talking about earlier,
somebody, somebody else has aconversation with you and comes
in and we have theseconversations.
So tell me about how do youprovide space for everyone to
voice, right, how they feelworking here?
(22:24):
Or do they have the opportunityto, you know.
Share.
And I, you know, I know there'salways a tension between like,
do you do that internally?
Do you bring someone else in?
And part of me is like, well, ifyou know that that's already a
challenge, that that's youranswer like, you don't have
(22:45):
trust, so you can't have a senseof belonging if there's not a
culture of actual trust as afoundation in your organization.
Dr. Courtney (22:54):
Absolutely.
If you don't have vulnerabilitybased trust, it makes me think
about the five behaviors.
But if you don't havevulnerability based trust in
your organization and you're inmeetings and you're the person
that's doing the majority of thetalking.
You're self-absorbed, and I'mjust going to say it, you're
self-absorbed and you haveseveral invisible spots
Dr. Tami (23:16):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (23:16):
and uh, I've seen, I've seen it, I've seen it in,
I've seen it in government, I'veseen it in private, I've seen it
in school districts.
I've seen it where it's allabout work and talk in.
Press releases of sort thethings we're doing.
(23:38):
These are the things that havebeen done, but I'm like, are you
giving true data?
Are you making data informeddecisions?
Because if you were to make datainformed decisions, your data
from your employee engagement,organizational health survey,
you'll pull that qualitativedata out and you'll address it,
especially if you see that as atheme across the organization.
(23:59):
It's, we can go on and on aboutthis because.
Dr. Tami (24:05):
So, okay.
For our friends in organizationsthat are.
say they've put out a culturesurvey, Whatever organization.
It's could be a school, I'm aprincipal, it could be
Dr. Courtney (24:17):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (24:18):
corporation, you're finding that no one's responding
Dr. Courtney (24:24):
Oh, they're not responding.
Dr. Tami (24:27):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (24:29):
That's a few things.
As a consultant, if they're notresponding, that lets me know
that there may be a space wheredata informed decision making,
the conditions are not set forthat.
That there may be where peopleare not having the conversation
around data.
Or it could be that they'vetaken surveys day in, day out
(24:53):
and they are tired of takingsurveys because they don't have
any follow up.
Dr. Tami (25:00):
Hmm.
Dr. Courtney (25:02):
There's not a conversation, there's no space
to talk beyond a project.
Um, it may be that there is aculture of retaliation, so if I
say this, this may happen.
So let me just stay quiet
Dr. Tami (25:20):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (25:22):
out of fear.
Fear of the unknown, because theconditions have not been set.
And so when you have either.
You don't have data informeddecision making processes or
having a protocol and space tohelp people talk about data,
because that may very well maybe.
Something that people don'tunderstand how to talk about
surveys, how to talk about data,how to take it in a, into their
(25:45):
meetings and have a conversationand dig deep and have a critical
analysis of it.
They may not have that skill orthat knowledge, so within that
workspace, you need to let themknow, Hey, we'll provide you
with the, um, support that'sneeded, or as part of your role.
In the job level, you'rerequired to know and learn these
things because we will use datato inform our decision making.
(26:08):
And so it's either those things,not a data informed culture, the
conditions to feel safe that Icould take the survey without
retaliation, or there may be ana space where I'm like, nah, I'm
just not doing no survey.
I did it last time.
Nothing happened.
Dr. Tami (26:29):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So.
I am sure this is where bringingyou in helps, organizations
figure this out.
Right.
Do you feel like mostorganizations need that support
of, an outside lens perhaps towork through how to get where
(26:49):
they wanna go?
Dr. Courtney (26:51):
Absolutely.
Um, for a while I was like, anticonsultant.
Coming into an organization.
But what I found, even in myleadership roles and working
with various clients, you onlyknow what you know based on your
experiences and like you just,we talked about earlier was the
(27:13):
The Blind nose test.
Dr. Tami (27:15):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (27:16):
You are so used to smelling certain scents.
You're in it, you won't be ableto see it.
That's just like me standing ina block of ice for so long.
I won't know anything different.
I won't know anything different.
And so when you bring in anexternal consultant who is in
(27:37):
alignment and truly understandsyour mission, your vision, your
OKRs, your KPIs, understand yourold, your overall strategic
plan.
Dr. Tami (27:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (27:47):
People have success because you have a
partner.
And so when I go intoorganizations, I come in as a
partner, like I have a few thatI'm collaborating and working
with now, and I'm honest.
I said, listen, I would not workfor your organization if these
things are not shifted.
And they were like, oh, I didn'tthink of it that way.
I go into the space as a thoughtpartner if there are best
(28:09):
practices within anorganization.
I see that it may be beneficialthat they communicate what's
happening behind the scenes.
I may support them with theircommunication strategy'cause
they don't understand what theydon't understand.
So it's, it's about partnershipequity work.
Air quote work.
(28:30):
It is a partnership too.
Meeting people where they are,and that's the approach I take
with the organizations.
I meet them where they are, butif they want to stay where they
are, I tell them, youinterviewing me.
I'm interviewing you as aclient.
You may not be the person forme.
I may not be your cup of tea.
I'm caffeine free, but I have alot of energy.
Dr. Tami (28:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's really importantbecause it is a two-way street
because it is a partnership andI think sometimes the, you know,
idea of equity work or bringingin a consultant, people, I.
I don't know.
Sometimes it seems like theirmind is like, oh, you're gonna
force us to do something.
(29:13):
It, it isn't about a, a forcing,it's about an awareness.
And I, I believe that is whereall of equity work begins.
It begins with an awareness.
Dr. Courtney (29:21):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (29:21):
have individual awareness, which is essential
and then if we're looking at anorganization, you have to have
organization wide awareness, andthen a system and a plan for.
Now that I have this awareness,what do I wanna do?
And how do I wanna do itdifferently?
Dr. Courtney (29:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (29:37):
to what you were talking about, about bias.
I would say bias exists.
It, it,
Dr. Courtney (29:40):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (29:41):
is not gonna ever go anywhere because as humans it's
kind of innate and as it's builtin from like life experience it
however, becoming aware of itand then making considerations
for how do I act or not act onsomething.
Because I'm aware now
Dr. Courtney (30:00):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (30:01):
this bias is actually the essential work.
And I know there's a lot ofshame sometimes when we talk for
people, when we talk about biasand, and emitting your bias, but
I think that's true also withinan organization, There can be
historical bias within anorganizational
Dr. Courtney (30:20):
Yes.
Yeah.
Uh, some organizations I'veseen, even in their hiring
practices, I was working withone client took their onboarding
process from 90 days to 45 days.
And what I found was the reasontheir process was originally 90
days was because they had peoplewho were part of the
organization that wanted to beseen and felt like their work
(30:41):
was more important.
So versus them making astrategic leadership decision
and say like, Hey.
Your information will be sharedwith a new hire on this part of
the journey.
Let's move your work into theever boarding part, because
right now, when you onboardsomeone into an organization,
they should really be focusingon building relationship and
culture, not hitting the groundrunning.
(31:01):
So when I see job descriptionssay, hit the ground running,
that means your culture is notimportant to the person.
Um, you, you're saying to theperson, my culture is not
important.
Like even when we think aboutbias and we think about change.
It is.
I like the ADKAR model.
It's a change management model.
That's my GoTo model.
(31:21):
It's not a linear model, butADKAR stands for awareness.
It stands for knowledge.
Well, lemme one outta order.
Acknowledge, uh, awareness, um,desire, ability, knowledge, and
reinforcement.
And so when we think about.
Being in a posture of equity andmaking sure we're incorporating
it into the system.
(31:42):
We gotta make sure there is anawareness like you shared
individual as well asorganization.
Because once again,organizations are made up of
individuals with their ownperspectives, and so you have to
have shared understanding andshared thoughts.
Dr. Tami (31:56):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (31:57):
You have to have a, uh.
A space where people unitetogether.
It's not saying that you have tobecome uniform, but unity does
not mean uniform.
Unity means we're comingtogether at the apex because
we're all going in the samedirection.
Dr. Tami (32:16):
Ooh, I think you should say that, that part
again, unity does not mean
Dr. Courtney (32:20):
Mean uniform.
No, unity does not mean uniform.
Unity is not.
Everyone dressed the same,saying the exact same language.
It doesn't mean that there's ashared understanding, there's a
shared thought.
That's us moving towards thecollective result together,
(32:41):
unity and uniform uniformity isnot unity.
Unity is not uniformity.
Dr. Tami (32:47):
You know.
I have, I have, I have twothoughts, but I'm gonna go with
this one first.
Dr. Courtney (32:52):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (32:53):
When we think about uniformity, I think about a lot
of process and procedures insideschools.
I.
Dr. Courtney (33:02):
It's control.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (33:05):
Um, and why it always makes me ask why, why, why, why
do we feel we have to have suchcontrol over these kids?
Like, you all have to walk thesame way.
You all have to dress the sameway.
You all like, are just top ofmind
Dr. Courtney (33:29):
because someone who had an idea that said, you
know what, let's not let thekids express themselves.
Let's put them in uniforms.
Um, because it will.
We had three people to do a peerreviewed, um, research and put
out a journal article thatstated that kids that are in
uniforms, they behave better.
(33:52):
So let's go ahead and put themin uniform.
Let's begin to condition themfor the workplace.
It's like a pipeline.
Let's condition them.
Dr. Tami (34:01):
that's like the, the, you know, school to prison
pipeline.
You know, the, the, the biggestmisquoted statistic that just
gets on my nerves is aboutreading level in third grade,
and kids are going to prison ifthey're not reading on grade
level, if third grade.
Dr. Courtney (34:20):
Uh, and the challenge I have with that is
because with that study, ittruly wasn't a study that
followed those third gradestudents throughout their whole
journey.
It wasn't, you weren't wakingup, you weren't going into their
neighborhoods to see how theylived.
You did not follow them throughhigh school.
(34:43):
It wasn't a thing.
Dr. Tami (34:43):
no, it, it was not a longitudinal study.
Like, and it just getsmisquoted.
Well, I mean, that's almost justlike, oh, what is her theory?
Like poverty, Ruby Payne.
I don't even get, start on that.
That wasn't even real researcheither.
So like, I got some soap boxes,but these, these I do, I have
some feelings.
(35:04):
Uh, but here's what I'venoticed.
These negative research in airquotes, studies always predict,
marginalized students havingthese very negative outcomes.
And in order to.
know, intercede in thoseoutcomes, we're gonna put in
(35:25):
this system of control.
Dr. Courtney (35:26):
You gotta be the savior.
We have to be the savior, um,because it's trouble.
And so I can pull in research,but I'm gonna just keep it
simple.
What you look for is what youget.
And if you go and you look to bethe savior, you're gonna always
find data and find situationsthat's meet that need.
Um.
(35:48):
Because you're right.
The people that are doing theresearch is not inclusive
research, because if it wereinclusive research, the
questions that you are studying,you would've actually asked that
person to give you the languageto ensure that there are shared
language in the research thatyou're conducting.
And I love to hear someone say,well, I just put out this new
white paper.
(36:09):
How many people read your whitepaper?
20 people.
Let me know the impact of yourwhite paper.
Let me know.
That white paper, that researchyou put out, how many people
picked that white paper up andwent?
Lobbied.
How many people picked thatwhite paper up went and start
(36:31):
volunteering in their community?
How many people picked thatwhite paper up and told the
folks that they wrote about,thank you because I wrote this
study about your experience.
How many people are doing that?
Give me the impact because they,they're intense.
Bless their heart.
(36:52):
Bless their heart.
They intend to do great thingswith their white paper and their
research, but my question is,what is your impact?
Let me know your impact.
Let me hear stories from thosehistorical and systematically
marginalized people that you'rewriting about.
Dr. Tami (37:08):
Yes.
Yes, yes.
Dr. Courtney (37:12):
I can, it is Saturday.
It's 85 degrees in Atlanta.
I'm high.
I'm heated.
I get heated because this issomething that is close and it's
personal.
Dr. Tami (37:23):
it is, it's so personal, part of my career I
spent in higher ed and preparingfuture teachers and, um.
I would always think about this.
In the research and my, mypersonal research was usually
narrative based, because it'sabout people's story.
But also for me, I was like, Idon't wanna take your voice
outta the story'cause it's notreally my story, it's your
(37:44):
story.
So, which is one of the, thechallenges of anything like
narrative, qualitative researchbase, how, me especially, I want
to pro, I don't wanna sayprotect, I want to honor.
The person who is being generousto tell and share their story to
lead to potential impact forothers it is not my story to
(38:09):
tell.
I may just be the vesselcollects to disseminate
Dr. Courtney (38:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (38:14):
the story, and I think.
That is a piece that is missing,like this is, yes, it is your
research, but there are peoplethat are affected and impacted
by this.
I can think of right now, say wehave this, uh, this is a huge
air quote, research around thescience of reading, and Emily
(38:35):
Hanford, who's not even a reliteracy specialist, she's a
journalist who got tractionaround why literacy instruction
should be this one certain wayand it's like taken off, right?
This, to me, speaks exactly whatwe're talking about, systems.
That benefit others over, you'refine.
(38:57):
Like this is like, I don't know.
This is great on my nerves.
'cause I'm like she has aplatform.
Yes.
But I think how we havediscernment around whose voices.
We're listening to whose um,solutions we're listening to and
(39:22):
who is really at the table.
Dr. Courtney (39:24):
Yeah.
We have to be mindful.
Of like our calling, ourvocation because we can do more
harm, especially when we are notputting the ones that matter at
the center.
And when we put ourselves at thecenter and our platform, we use
our platform for the promotionof self.
(39:48):
For our self-worth, we'recausing more harm.
And like I say, systems play outin which they are designed.
You're contributing to a systemthat is already causing harm
Dr. Tami (40:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (40:01):
that people, it's like I, I can vividly just see
it.
Someone building, continuously,building a system and they're.
Building it.
Then you have the other persontearing it down because it's
causing hurt and pain and harm.
But then you got someone who'scatching those bricks, sliding
it to someone else on the otherside and sticking that brick
back into the system.
So you have another person whois building another person's
(40:24):
dismantling.
Then you have someone that'sswooping in because of self
Dr. Tami (40:30):
Mm.
Dr. Courtney (40:30):
and they're putting the bricks back into the
the other spot in which iscausing even more harm.
Dr. Tami (40:36):
Hmm.
Yes.
Yes, And know, I just thinkabout the educators too, that
we're losing because of this,right?
Like we're also taking awaytheir opportunity
Dr. Courtney (40:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (40:52):
respond in the ways that they should be able to as
professionals.
Dr. Courtney (40:58):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (40:58):
To the students that are in front of them.
Dr. Courtney (41:01):
It's show up as your authentic self.
When you show up as yourauthentic self as an educator,
remember, yes, I believe inhaving code of ethics and being
ethical and being respected, butI don't believe in the silencing
of one's voices.
Dr. Tami (41:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (41:19):
It's like I mentioned a five behaviors
earlier.
It made me think about, we wantto say the educators.
Hey, we wanna first thing andlet's pay them more.
Payment is, is also financial,but it's also respect
Dr. Tami (41:37):
Yes.
Dr. Courtney (41:37):
and value.
Can we pay them, uh, with therespect that they will go in and
represent their school districtsin the way that it should be
represented, but in order forthem to show up in that
classroom, that way, thedistrict must practice.
And employ the systems that theywant teachers to employ in their
(41:59):
classroom.
At the district level, theremust be going back to the five
behaviors you gotta have, andthis is for equity, like when I
think about equity work, butwhen I think about organizations
as a whole
Dr. Tami (42:13):
Mm.
Dr. Courtney (42:14):
and having a healthy organization, you gotta
have that trust.
You gotta be open to conflict,be open to hearing that a
teacher may say, the systemsthat we have in place right now.
Not it, be open to thatconflict.
Don't, don't shut them down.
You can accept, although you maynot agree with what people are
pushing back on, and, and it'sthe same for teachers,
(42:34):
districts, teachers, but thenyou're able to get the
commitment from commitment,accountability, and then you can
get the result.
If we want to build a spacewhere we're thriving.
We're making a place better thanwhat it was before we started.
Then we gotta have theseelements in place, but we can't
(42:56):
do it without having a communityof belonging.
We can't,
Dr. Tami (43:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Courtney (43:03):
yeah.
Dr. Tami (43:03):
Okay.
So you were talking about jobdescriptions, And you know, you
mentioned hit the groundrunning.
I think something I see a lot injob descriptions.
And I'm just curious what yourthoughts are about this, um, is
like, must be able to work in afast-paced environment, pivot
quickly with little direction orsomething those lines.
Dr. Courtney (43:29):
Yeah, it is that code for saying we don't have
our stuff together.
And so you may not know whatyou're gonna do your first 90
days.
Be okay with it, you're gettinga paycheck and benefits be okay
with it.
And who's to say?
I, I always see that, but veryseldom do I say see efficient.
(43:51):
I, it is very seldom do I sayefficient, collaborative.
I don't see a lot of that, and Ialso see people say, be
entrepreneurial, which meanscode for, you're not gonna have
all the resources you need, soyou better figure it out.
Dr. Tami (44:08):
I also think that entrepreneurial can mean like
code for, you're gonna put inall the time necessary that may
be an excess of what you shouldreally commit to your employer.
Dr. Courtney (44:19):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (44:20):
Um,
Dr. Courtney (44:21):
Yeah,
Dr. Tami (44:21):
expect you to, to be there and show up when we want
you to.
Dr. Courtney (44:25):
absolutely.
Like.
Being but the other side ofbeing an entrepreneur, which is
also different, that peopledon't talk about, being an
entrepreneur gives you the spaceto have the autonomy.
Dr. Tami (44:38):
Yes.
Dr. Courtney (44:38):
So if you're going to say, be entrepreneurial, have
an entrepreneurial spirit, giveme the space to have autonomy
and be able to make decisions.
Yes, I believe in protocols andprocesses and workflows and
automation.
I believe in that.
Um, I do.
What I also believe in is humanintelligence.
You hired me for this skillset,so please don't micromanage.
(45:01):
Please don't micromanageindividuals.
If you say this, this is mything.
If I give you the destinationand I've, we have a grounding of
core behaviors.
Core values, and like integrityis one of them, and that's
something that I expect of youas you should expect of me.
I don't care how you get to thatdestination, as long as I'm
(45:23):
there to support you, give youfeedback just in time and that
we get there and that you feelsupported.
That's what matters.
Dr. Tami (45:32):
Yes,
Dr. Courtney (45:34):
That's what matters.
It's just like on when I driveto Alabama and it's when I drive
to Alabama, there's um, alwaysroad work on I 85 South.
Our 85 south, it's always roadwork.
It says, and the speed limit isa trap.
It says 80 miles.
(45:54):
And you go, literally, you don'teven go.
You go about half of a mile, 80miles to 50 miles, 75 to 40.
You're going, you're picking upsome space, you're accelerating.
Hit the brakes.
Accelerate, hit the brakes,accelerate, hit the brakes.
That's causing so much harm anddamage.
(46:16):
It's causing you to be out ofalignment.
Dr. Tami (46:18):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (46:19):
It's causing you to be out of alignment'cause
you're gonna slam on brakes, dosome damage to your brakes, and
have to control your car becauseyou're probably going at a speed
and then somebody's in front ofyou slamming on brakes and
you're hitting potholes becausethat's another thing.
But you're out of alignment.
You're outta
Dr. Tami (46:33):
Yes.
Dr. Courtney (46:34):
alignment.
You're out of alignment.
And some of these jobdescriptions are written out of
alignment.
Dr. Tami (46:40):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (46:40):
if they took the organizational culture data, the
org health survey data that theyget, and write their job
descriptions, what would theysay?
Dr. Tami (46:50):
Mm.
That's a
Dr. Courtney (46:52):
would that net promoter score say?
Dr. Tami (46:54):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (46:55):
to put that in your job description?
Dr. Tami (46:58):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (46:59):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (47:02):
That's an interesting idea too.
Like we're always worried aboutexternal net promoter score, are
we also looking internally?
Dr. Courtney (47:10):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (47:12):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (47:13):
65% of the employees said they would not
refer it to a friend, this placeto a friend.
You put that in the jobdescription and see what
happens.
Dr. Tami (47:24):
Yeah.
That's powerful, powerful data.
Dr. Courtney (47:28):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (47:29):
that's essential for organizations to be looking at.
Dr. Courtney (47:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (47:34):
you know, you see it, you know, you see it time and
time again.
Right?
Dr. Courtney (47:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (47:40):
thinking about that speed analogy, like, do this, oh
no, don't do this, do this.
No, don't do this.
Like, oh, like exactly what you
Dr. Courtney (47:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (47:48):
you because you are innovative and X, Y, or Z.
But now I wanna micromanage howyou do that.
Dr. Courtney (47:53):
Gas lighter's finest.
Dr. Tami (47:55):
You know.
Ooh.
Like that, that, that was apersonal little trigger right
there.
Dr. Courtney (48:01):
I, so sometimes I say trigger, but I like to
change my words.
I say, oh, it activates me.
It activates me.
Dr. Tami (48:08):
Yeah.
That, that one activates me,Courtney.
It activates me
Dr. Courtney (48:12):
Aw,
Dr. Tami (48:12):
like, I'm a little confused.
'cause when you hired me, yousaid, this is what you value
about me, but now you're notletting me do the part that you
actually.
Dr. Courtney (48:22):
yeah.
Dr. Tami (48:23):
Value.
Dr. Courtney (48:24):
Yeah.
And, and it is, it isparticularly different like when
we think about school districtsand places that support learning
of others in, I heard this, Iwas doing a session at, um, for
Soar Atlanta, which is Sherms.
Local, like Atlanta conference,and one thing a person said is
(48:48):
that.
I find it challenging for me towork for a company in which we
don't use our own products,
Dr. Tami (48:56):
Oh.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (48:58):
and I am struggling because I feel that
if we are going out selling aproduct, we need to have
internal customers first.
And they were talking abouttheir learning systems starting
within, and I was like, Hmm.
Oh, it's powerful'cause how canyou sell something in which you
don't have experience or youbelieve in.
Dr. Tami (49:20):
yeah.
It's the back to that, to me,that's put your money where your
mouth is.
Dr. Courtney (49:27):
Yep.
Lemme see a budget.
Lemme see a budget.
Dr. Tami (49:29):
see your budget.
Look, money talks like theyalways say that money talks.
And it
Dr. Courtney (49:33):
does.
Dr. Tami (49:33):
It tells you where your values are.
It really does like what?
Personal values, organizationalvalue, like all the things it
tells you where your values are,
Dr. Courtney (49:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (49:41):
um, with what you wanna invest in.
So, okay.
Well, Courtney, I feel like Icould just keep talking and
talking.
And talking to you.
Um, but I do want to be mindfulfor our, our listeners listen to
the podcast, but I do like toend always with like, what is
just a piece of advice you wannagive someone who's out there
(50:04):
wanting to engage with, know,equity, diversity, inclusion,
belonging, um, maybe they're newon the path, maybe they've, you
know, been on the path for aminute.
What, what's your best advicefor our listeners?
Dr. Courtney (50:19):
Don't be weary in your wellbeing while you do.
Don't be weary in your wellbeingwhile you're doing, because in
order to engage and make shiftsand change, you have to be near
hold yourself and you have takeaction.
Um, we don't need another typestatement so it.
(50:43):
If you are in a space and youwant to truly contribute to
change, know that you can't doit alone.
You can do it in partnership,but don't be weary in your
wellbeing while doing.
Dr. Tami (50:57):
That is perfect advice, um, because it is one
that we sometimes can burnourselves out with our
intentionality around this work.
Dr. Courtney (51:07):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (51:07):
I want you all to be mindful of that as you move
through, as you look to use yourvoices.
Thank you for joining us foranother episode of the Equity
Hour.
Of course, you can find a linkfor Dr.
Courtney, her website, and allof her services in the show
notes.
Until next time.
Dr. Courtney (51:24):
All right, my friends.
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of
The Equity Hour with me or hostDr.
Tami.
I am so excited to have mynewest guest with us here today.
We have Dr.
Courtney Teague in the house.
Hey Courtney.
Dr. Courtney (00:16):
Hey, happy day.
Happy day.
It's a wonderful day to bealive.
Dr. Tami (00:20):
Yes, yes.
So lemme tell you all a littlebit about Dr.
Courtney.
She is a leadership strategist,executive coach, and the founder
of CLT and Associates, a firmdedicated to unlocking human
potential and buildingorganizations where people
thrive, not just survive.
Uh, amen to that.
Dr. Courtney (00:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (00:40):
with over 17 years of experience across corporate
education and governmentsectors, Courtney helps leaders
move beyond titles and intotransformational impact.
She partners with executives,entrepreneurs, and change makers
to develop leadership, drivecultural excellence, and
activate strategic growth, allwhile leading with shared
humanity at the core through CLTand associates.
(01:01):
Courtney isn't just shapingleaders, she's shaping what's
possible.
Dr. Courtney (01:07):
Hmm.
Dr. Tami (01:07):
Welcome to the show.
Dr. Courtney (01:08):
Oh my gosh, that bio sounds so amazing.
If I didn't know it was me, Iwould want to meet that person.
That that sound really good.
Dr. Tami (01:15):
Yes, it, it is.
I love, my favorite part is likeshaving what's possible,
Dr. Courtney (01:21):
Yes.
Dr. Tami (01:21):
Because you don't know what you don't know until you
take the time to meet andcollaborate with someone who can
help illuminate maybe some ofthe things that you haven't
quite seen yet.
Dr. Courtney (01:35):
Yep.
I mean, that's, that's what it'sabout.
I think life is meant to be in aspace of thriving and curiosity
and, and coming around the.
Coming around and being aroundpeople that could reveal your
invisible spots.
I won't say blind spots.
I will say invisible spotsbecause some things we just
cannot see because they areinvisible to us, but they're
(01:56):
present to other folks andthat's why I'm here.
Um, and that's who I want in mylife.
Folks like that.
Dr. Tami (02:04):
Absolutely.
I like that idea of an invisiblespot sometimes our life
experience, right?
It's just what we know,
Dr. Courtney (02:11):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (02:12):
it's not as clear as it would be to someone else.
It also, it makes me think ofthat, um, commercial, like the
nose blind commercial, likewe're,
Dr. Courtney (02:22):
Oh, when they started smelling the faze
commercial
Dr. Tami (02:24):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (02:25):
and they're smelling, and people was like,
oh no, I don't smell anything.
It's a pale full of garbageright there, but you smell faze
and that's all you know becauseyou can't smell your own trash.
Dr. Tami (02:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it was, it was invisible tome until someone was like, Hey,
uh, you might want to do alittle something, something or
think about this, or Have youthought about, about this?
So, okay.
Yeah.
I'm sure we're gonna dig moreinto that as we go.
But I do start every episodeTalking about the journey into
(02:57):
working when thinking about, youknow, inclusive spaces and
equity.
to me it is a journey.
It's not a sprint.
I think there's a misnomer outthere that like you go to a
professional learning, session,you have one session with a
coach, whatever, or it has to bethis big, grandiose thing.
But really it's aboutintentionality and learning and
(03:19):
a process over time, which tome, it's never done.
I mean, I've been doing thiswork for, you know, a quarter of
a century.
That sounds really long when Isay it that way.
Dr. Courtney (03:30):
Your season.
Your season.
Dr. Tami (03:33):
I'm
Dr. Courtney (03:33):
Your season.
Dr. Tami (03:34):
work.
I like that.
I'm gonna steal that.
Dr. Courtney (03:36):
It's all right.
You can borrow it.
It's more.
Dr. Tami (03:38):
Thank you.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
I'm totally gonna borrow that.
Um, yeah, so tell me a littlebit about your journey.
What has led you down this pathand prompted you to, you know,
become the founder of yourorganization's CLT and
Associates?
I became curious, went intocollege, um, and I said, okay, I
(04:01):
gotta go to school forsomething.
I know I wanted to be a teacher,but I didn't know what type of
teacher.
So while I was in college, Iwent back and forth.
I was like, computer scienceeducation, computer science
education landed on education.
But while in college.
I had a job working for an, anorganization called Volunteers
of America, and there I wasworking in group homes with
(04:23):
individuals who did not have aliteral voice.
These individuals were, I.
Lord, I, I hate to say it likethis, but like state property
where they had no family comingin to check on them.
They had various abilities,traumatic brain injury, um,
autism variability, and there Isaw where there was a need for
(04:44):
someone to be a voice for thosewho cannot speak for themselves
and represent themselves.
From there, I determine thatmajor of being a special
educator.
So.
I didn't enter this work througha textbook or a hashtag as many
people do.
I entered it through my life,um, as a special educator.
My first year I moved toAtlanta, Georgia, from Alabama,
(05:07):
and I had a student, I'll justuse its initials.
Ew, ew, did not speak.
I had a teacher assistant andshe said, oh, I've never heard
him speak.
I tried to speak Spanish.
The Lord knows I cannot speak alick of Spanish.
I can say, oh, no, do trace, andI was trying to speak and I
trying to speak in Spanish toanother student, and that
(05:29):
student, Ew, heard me speak inSpanish and he told me I was
stupid.
The teacher assistant turnedaround and said, I didn't know
that child had a voice.
I didn't know he could speak.
Okay.
I'm like, wait a minute, maybeI'm touched.
Touched by an angel orsomething.
So with this particular student,we began to converse Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (05:52):
and I laugh.
He laughed every day, like forthe next few weeks.
I said, something's not quiteright.
Why is this student in my class?
I pulled out this student'spaperwork.
He had a file cabinet full ofwork.
I spent weekends going throughhis paperwork, and I went and
(06:13):
looked at his assessments.
Come to find out this child cameto the United States from
Dominican Republic.
Never had a formal Englishintroduction.
They tested him in English.
By law, you're supposed to testa child in their native
language.
He spoke Spanish, so theyidentified him as a child with
autism, which it was not that itwas a language barrier.
(06:36):
And being that his family, someof his family, they were not,
um, citizens, US citizens yet.
So some of them was stay awayfrom the schools, but they knew
he had to go to school.
And that became a problem.
That became a big problem.
I got in some trouble.
Trouble and I'm gonna tell was
Dr. Tami (06:55):
I bet.
Dr. Courtney (06:55):
good
Dr. Tami (06:55):
trouble.
Dr. Courtney (06:56):
trouble.
John Lewis would've been happybecause I said you all Have
identified and put a label onthis child in which it does not
equate to where he is in hislife and who he is.
So he has been in thisparticular supposedly least
restrictive environment allthese years, which it was not
least restrictive because itwasn't the right school setting
(07:18):
or classroom setting, and it wasa disservice.
Then they said, oh, let's justgive him a LD eligibility.
You will not.
You will give him services insummer school to help him get
caught up, even though he maynot have reached where he should
have been at that particulartime, but you're going to give
him those supports because youfailed him.
That's the point.
(07:39):
When I think about equity,giving a child what they need,
giving a person what they needto be successful, you're not
moving the bar.
Dr. Tami (07:46):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (07:46):
people have a misconception of equity of
you're moving the bar and you'relowering the standards.
No, the standard can be righthere.
It's about giving people theresources they need to meet the
standard in respect thatunderstanding the systems, the
way that they were designed,they were designed by people
who.
Are the majority.
And so when those systems aredesigned by the people who are
(08:07):
the majority, why naturally theygot biases and not all biases
are bad, but those biases informsystems in which not everyone is
around the table, even thoughthe folks that should be around
the table can actually enhanceit and bring the natural
resources.
Dr. Tami (08:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that just brings up areally compelling point that we
see a lot in education, right?
The miss labeling of students,of them being, I'm gonna use the
word stuck for a lack of abetter word, in a particular
(08:42):
track because of a moment.
Like, we take the time right assomeone to take in the time to
really kind of understand whothis student is and the language
need, of the different path thischild could have had.
the beginning,'cause that'sexactly what you did.
(09:03):
You took time to understand theindividual needs of the student
in order to provide the best andmost equitable support.
Dr. Courtney (09:15):
Absolutely.
I took the time and I took itpersonal.
I took it personal.
And some may say, you know, youcan't take work personal.
Listen, equity is not work forme.
Equity is not abstract.
It's deeply personal, uh,because.
I am only as great as the peoplethat I support and help.
Dr. Tami (09:37):
Hmm.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Work is not supposed to bepersonal.
I don't think of, I don't thinkof this work as either.
Like I, um, think of it more as.
I'm gonna say my calling,
Dr. Courtney (09:58):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (09:59):
Because if we don't have people that are willing to
have the conversation tointerrogate the system, support
broadening who is heard, toadjust the system.
Then we're just gonna keep beinglike a hamster on a wheel, Going
(10:23):
around and around and around.
Um, I, I, were talking about themajority, and how the systems
are built for the majority, so.
Just curious as we areapproaching where we are
projected to have minority,majority in the United States.
(10:48):
Have you?
I think there's a lot ofpushback is coming because of
that.
Like people know that, and Ithink it's, it's bubbled up some
fear.
Um, but how do you think thatthat shift in dynamic in this
country might help shift some ofthe systems, if at all?
Dr. Courtney (11:09):
Oh yeah, people.
Fear is typically an outcome oftrying to look into the future
and trying to solve the futurewithout remaining present and
taking care of today.
When I think about 2043 andthere being a pivot or a shift,
I still have a wondering of,yes, we know where the majority
(11:29):
may lie today.
Will the majority still be thedecision makers?
Because we can have a shift.
We can have a shiftdemographically, but if.
The decision makers, there is nopivot shift in the people who
makes the decision, then wewould still be in the same
space.
Um, I do see to your point wherewhat we are experiencing now,
(11:55):
um, right now in our currentclimate that.
They're, they're enhancing, not,I would say enhancing.
They're refining the systemsbecause if they don't refine the
systems right now, when we getto 2043, there will be a, a
major pivot where the majorityis now the minority.
Like that's, I see.
(12:16):
That's what's happening with thesystems, like things that we are
experiencing even today, theywere designed 30, 40, 50 years
ago, and so.
If there is no shift inleadership, a shift in, uh,
dynamic of who holds thedecision, who holds the gavel,
(12:37):
we will still be in the samespace.
Because as we tend to see,history still repeats itself.
It's like it's repeating itselfright now.
If I think about civil rights,think about the segregated
restrooms and water fountains.
It's still the same.
It looks a little different.
Segregation and water fountains.
We may not have water fountains,but in one part of the community
(12:58):
or in the city.
They may not have a store whohave bottled clean bottled
water.
Still segregation.
It just looks a little bitdifferent.
The root is still there becausewe didn't attack the root.
We only been treating thesymptoms.
Dr. Tami (13:13):
Oh yes, absolutely.
I, I was having a conversationwith someone about that recently
because of the current climate,like asking if.
I have fear about, you know,hosting this podcast called The
Equity Hour
Dr. Courtney (13:27):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (13:27):
doing this work, and I said, absolutely not because
work.
changed.
We, it has always facedopposition.
Like it never went away, eventhough, you know, there was a
narrative.
Like we're in a post-racialsociety once we had Barack Obama
(13:48):
as president, like that was anarrative that was trying to be
put out, but the experiencedidn't actually.
Change.
And, and you know, my personaltheory is like, I think people
double down after, um, Barackwas president because fear of
losing this, this power.
(14:10):
that they've historically hadand, and, and done whatever they
can to keep.
And that's not unusual, right?
Like, you can look in acrossthe, the world that the people
in power try to stay in power.
Dr. Courtney (14:23):
Absolutely.
I, I think when we look at thiswork, and I'm doing my air
quotes.
Dr. Tami (14:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (14:31):
When we look at this work for one, I also look
at this as a business andstrategic imperative that is, is
vital, um, is vital.
Equity in its essence is notcharity because some people like
to equate equity with charityand, and giving back to the
(14:51):
community.
No, it's clarity.
When we think about leadershipand as you said, post Obama.
People doubled down.
Uh, some people doubled down forthe good, some people doubled
down for, uh, worse over thebad.
But when we look at leadership,leadership without inclusion, it
is, uh, it's about control.
(15:12):
I.
Dr. Tami (15:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (15:13):
About control to your point of being in power.
And so if you're not inclusiveand you're not including those
voices in which they are morelikely historically and
systematically marginalized,including them in those spaces,
you can do whatever you want andcontinue to do whatever you
want.
Um.
(15:35):
But I believe eight pound babyJesus sits high, look low in
everything that people think isgoing to happen.
It will eventually surface and,and it will, a boil will rise or
come to a head like mygrandmother say.
Dr. Tami (15:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (15:50):
because also in an effort to exclude equity and
exclude people, you're creatinga culture and you're teaching
behaviors.
And once you start teachingcertain behaviors, you're gonna
have a, an evolution that won'tbe televised on TikTok or
(16:11):
YouTube.
A revolution, not evolution.
Revolution.
My
Dr. Tami (16:17):
a revolution.
Um, so I wanna talk some a bitmore about this, about, you
know, building culture
Dr. Courtney (16:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (16:25):
And we think about building, an inclusive culture.
Could be in school, that couldbe in an organization.
I personally have noticed thatthere.
Is a misunderstanding about whatit truly means to be inclusive
and in a belonging space, versusactually more of a controlling.
(16:49):
Fit in air quotes, right.
For the environment.
Oh, okay.
I, I see I am, uh, tempt of akey area.
So let's, I know this is some ofthe work that you do, and I'm
just so curious to hear somethoughts from you on this.
Dr. Courtney (17:06):
I know I could say is blessed so heart.
Um, blessed heart when I thinkabout.
Creating a culture and in aspace of, like, even just with
belonging, because we can have,we can have diversity.
We have diversity withoutbelonging, and, oh, oh, I, I
(17:30):
notice something in my body.
I notice something in my bodybecause when I, I do the work
and I support folks withcreating an environment of
belonging.
I find that.
There is a conflict with corebehaviors and core values and
who a person is beyond theorganization.
(17:53):
I come to find that when I lookat organizations, in essence,
organizations are made of peopleand each person represents an
individual, and I see that theremay be.
Conflict when I do work withorganizations to let's do this
culture building, let's look atour culture.
How would you rate your culture?
I find that there is notalignment with even the
(18:17):
leadership.
And so of course the people thatreport to various leaders are
not going to feel like theybelong when they have to do some
cross collaboration.
And I find that core behaviorsand people being.
Focus on their wins and theirpersonal agenda causes a lot of
organizations to lose and notcreate a culture of belonging.
(18:40):
Now, on the other end, I haveworked with organizations where
we focus on culture as a way itis.
Culture was built into thebudget, not just like, uh, a
website where we, we believe inour people.
No.
Culture was a part of theirbudget.
Culture was a part of theirperformance.
(19:02):
It just like you had to meet asales quote or a sales goal.
Your data and your feedback fromthe people that you support,
that's a part of yourperformance and that's one
organization.
I can say I saw a shift becausethe leadership did not just put
out a statement, they made surethe systems were designed to
(19:23):
support the culture ofbelonging, and so.
When we did that work, we focuson rewarding the behaviors that
we wanted because with culture,it can go twofold.
Culture is built in behaviorsthat you reward.
If you reward the behaviors thatare not inclusive and does not
promote belonging, that's whatyou'll get more of.
(19:44):
And so if you're silent when itcomes to challenging people to
ensure that they, there aremeeting agendas.
Are inclusive, that they providespace for people to belong in
their meeting agendas in theirone-on-ones.
Then if you're silent, thenyou're telling them that I
tolerate a culture of exclusion.
(20:04):
And so that particular company,they put their money in their
systems in place because we arepast that level of.
Word play.
I don't care about your equitystatement.
If I look at your budget, if Ilook at your performance review
and I don't see that you'reholding space for people to hold
(20:26):
themselves accountable andempowering your staff to have
the language that they need topush back where needed, or to
acknowledge their leadership.
And we have a problem.
You're just doing word play.
You're doing word words withfriends.
That's what you're doing.
You're not giving the peoplewhat they need and you're not
(20:48):
creating the culture.
You, we gotta hold people inthat space.
We gotta hold them capable.
Not only just accountable,because equity.
Belonging, inclusion,accessibility, that's everyone's
responsibility.
Shared humanity is everyone'sresponsibility, not just
(21:11):
leadership.
Dr. Tami (21:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think you bring up such a.
Important point
Dr. Courtney (21:18):
mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (21:19):
I can think of a number of organizations, that
I've worked with where yes, theyhad the equity statement.
Yes.
They said we value, um,different perspectives and
ideas, and they say the on airquotes the right things.
(21:42):
And there's not an investment inhow to actually execute what
that's gonna look like notalways automatic.
Like that has to be learned insome ways.
'cause you know, we were justtalking about these systems.
These systems have been in place
Dr. Courtney (22:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (22:01):
a long time and we've all lived within them.
So sometimes we don't evennotice.
The system until, like what wewere talking about earlier,
somebody, somebody else has aconversation with you and comes
in and we have theseconversations.
So tell me about how do youprovide space for everyone to
voice, right, how they feelworking here?
(22:24):
Or do they have the opportunityto, you know.
Share.
And I, you know, I know there'salways a tension between like,
do you do that internally?
Do you bring someone else in?
And part of me is like, well, ifyou know that that's already a
challenge, that that's youranswer like, you don't have
(22:45):
trust, so you can't have a senseof belonging if there's not a
culture of actual trust as afoundation in your organization.
Dr. Courtney (22:54):
Absolutely.
If you don't have vulnerabilitybased trust, it makes me think
about the five behaviors.
But if you don't havevulnerability based trust in
your organization and you're inmeetings and you're the person
that's doing the majority of thetalking.
You're self-absorbed, and I'mjust going to say it, you're
self-absorbed and you haveseveral invisible spots
Dr. Tami (23:16):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (23:16):
and uh, I've seen, I've seen it, I've seen it in,
I've seen it in government, I'veseen it in private, I've seen it
in school districts.
I've seen it where it's allabout work and talk in.
Press releases of sort thethings we're doing.
(23:38):
These are the things that havebeen done, but I'm like, are you
giving true data?
Are you making data informeddecisions?
Because if you were to make datainformed decisions, your data
from your employee engagement,organizational health survey,
you'll pull that qualitativedata out and you'll address it,
especially if you see that as atheme across the organization.
(23:59):
It's, we can go on and on aboutthis because.
Dr. Tami (24:05):
So, okay.
For our friends in organizationsthat are.
say they've put out a culturesurvey, Whatever organization.
It's could be a school, I'm aprincipal, it could be
Dr. Courtney (24:17):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (24:18):
corporation, you're finding that no one's responding
Dr. Courtney (24:24):
Oh, they're not responding.
Dr. Tami (24:27):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (24:29):
That's a few things.
As a consultant, if they're notresponding, that lets me know
that there may be a space wheredata informed decision making,
the conditions are not set forthat.
That there may be where peopleare not having the conversation
around data.
Or it could be that they'vetaken surveys day in, day out
(24:53):
and they are tired of takingsurveys because they don't have
any follow up.
Dr. Tami (25:00):
Hmm.
Dr. Courtney (25:02):
There's not a conversation, there's no space
to talk beyond a project.
Um, it may be that there is aculture of retaliation, so if I
say this, this may happen.
So let me just stay quiet
Dr. Tami (25:20):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (25:22):
out of fear.
Fear of the unknown, because theconditions have not been set.
And so when you have either.
You don't have data informeddecision making processes or
having a protocol and space tohelp people talk about data,
because that may very well maybe.
Something that people don'tunderstand how to talk about
surveys, how to talk about data,how to take it in a, into their
(25:45):
meetings and have a conversationand dig deep and have a critical
analysis of it.
They may not have that skill orthat knowledge, so within that
workspace, you need to let themknow, Hey, we'll provide you
with the, um, support that'sneeded, or as part of your role.
In the job level, you'rerequired to know and learn these
things because we will use datato inform our decision making.
(26:08):
And so it's either those things,not a data informed culture, the
conditions to feel safe that Icould take the survey without
retaliation, or there may be ana space where I'm like, nah, I'm
just not doing no survey.
I did it last time.
Nothing happened.
Dr. Tami (26:29):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So.
I am sure this is where bringingyou in helps, organizations
figure this out.
Right.
Do you feel like mostorganizations need that support
of, an outside lens perhaps towork through how to get where
(26:49):
they wanna go?
Dr. Courtney (26:51):
Absolutely.
Um, for a while I was like, anticonsultant.
Coming into an organization.
But what I found, even in myleadership roles and working
with various clients, you onlyknow what you know based on your
experiences and like you just,we talked about earlier was the
(27:13):
The Blind nose test.
Dr. Tami (27:15):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (27:16):
You are so used to smelling certain scents.
You're in it, you won't be ableto see it.
That's just like me standing ina block of ice for so long.
I won't know anything different.
I won't know anything different.
And so when you bring in anexternal consultant who is in
(27:37):
alignment and truly understandsyour mission, your vision, your
OKRs, your KPIs, understand yourold, your overall strategic
plan.
Dr. Tami (27:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (27:47):
People have success because you have a
partner.
And so when I go intoorganizations, I come in as a
partner, like I have a few thatI'm collaborating and working
with now, and I'm honest.
I said, listen, I would not workfor your organization if these
things are not shifted.
And they were like, oh, I didn'tthink of it that way.
I go into the space as a thoughtpartner if there are best
(28:09):
practices within anorganization.
I see that it may be beneficialthat they communicate what's
happening behind the scenes.
I may support them with theircommunication strategy'cause
they don't understand what theydon't understand.
So it's, it's about partnershipequity work.
Air quote work.
(28:30):
It is a partnership too.
Meeting people where they are,and that's the approach I take
with the organizations.
I meet them where they are, butif they want to stay where they
are, I tell them, youinterviewing me.
I'm interviewing you as aclient.
You may not be the person forme.
I may not be your cup of tea.
I'm caffeine free, but I have alot of energy.
Dr. Tami (28:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's really importantbecause it is a two-way street
because it is a partnership andI think sometimes the, you know,
idea of equity work or bringingin a consultant, people, I.
I don't know.
Sometimes it seems like theirmind is like, oh, you're gonna
force us to do something.
(29:13):
It, it isn't about a, a forcing,it's about an awareness.
And I, I believe that is whereall of equity work begins.
It begins with an awareness.
Dr. Courtney (29:21):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (29:21):
have individual awareness, which is essential
and then if we're looking at anorganization, you have to have
organization wide awareness, andthen a system and a plan for.
Now that I have this awareness,what do I wanna do?
And how do I wanna do itdifferently?
Dr. Courtney (29:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (29:37):
to what you were talking about, about bias.
I would say bias exists.
It, it,
Dr. Courtney (29:40):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (29:41):
is not gonna ever go anywhere because as humans it's
kind of innate and as it's builtin from like life experience it
however, becoming aware of itand then making considerations
for how do I act or not act onsomething.
Because I'm aware now
Dr. Courtney (30:00):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (30:01):
this bias is actually the essential work.
And I know there's a lot ofshame sometimes when we talk for
people, when we talk about biasand, and emitting your bias, but
I think that's true also withinan organization, There can be
historical bias within anorganizational
Dr. Courtney (30:20):
Yes.
Yeah.
Uh, some organizations I'veseen, even in their hiring
practices, I was working withone client took their onboarding
process from 90 days to 45 days.
And what I found was the reasontheir process was originally 90
days was because they had peoplewho were part of the
organization that wanted to beseen and felt like their work
(30:41):
was more important.
So versus them making astrategic leadership decision
and say like, Hey.
Your information will be sharedwith a new hire on this part of
the journey.
Let's move your work into theever boarding part, because
right now, when you onboardsomeone into an organization,
they should really be focusingon building relationship and
culture, not hitting the groundrunning.
(31:01):
So when I see job descriptionssay, hit the ground running,
that means your culture is notimportant to the person.
Um, you, you're saying to theperson, my culture is not
important.
Like even when we think aboutbias and we think about change.
It is.
I like the ADKAR model.
It's a change management model.
That's my GoTo model.
(31:21):
It's not a linear model, butADKAR stands for awareness.
It stands for knowledge.
Well, lemme one outta order.
Acknowledge, uh, awareness, um,desire, ability, knowledge, and
reinforcement.
And so when we think about.
Being in a posture of equity andmaking sure we're incorporating
it into the system.
(31:42):
We gotta make sure there is anawareness like you shared
individual as well asorganization.
Because once again,organizations are made up of
individuals with their ownperspectives, and so you have to
have shared understanding andshared thoughts.
Dr. Tami (31:56):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (31:57):
You have to have a, uh.
A space where people unitetogether.
It's not saying that you have tobecome uniform, but unity does
not mean uniform.
Unity means we're comingtogether at the apex because
we're all going in the samedirection.
Dr. Tami (32:16):
Ooh, I think you should say that, that part
again, unity does not mean
Dr. Courtney (32:20):
Mean uniform.
No, unity does not mean uniform.
Unity is not.
Everyone dressed the same,saying the exact same language.
It doesn't mean that there's ashared understanding, there's a
shared thought.
That's us moving towards thecollective result together,
(32:41):
unity and uniform uniformity isnot unity.
Unity is not uniformity.
Dr. Tami (32:47):
You know.
I have, I have, I have twothoughts, but I'm gonna go with
this one first.
Dr. Courtney (32:52):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (32:53):
When we think about uniformity, I think about a lot
of process and procedures insideschools.
I.
Dr. Courtney (33:02):
It's control.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (33:05):
Um, and why it always makes me ask why, why, why, why
do we feel we have to have suchcontrol over these kids?
Like, you all have to walk thesame way.
You all have to dress the sameway.
You all like, are just top ofmind
Dr. Courtney (33:29):
because someone who had an idea that said, you
know what, let's not let thekids express themselves.
Let's put them in uniforms.
Um, because it will.
We had three people to do a peerreviewed, um, research and put
out a journal article thatstated that kids that are in
uniforms, they behave better.
(33:52):
So let's go ahead and put themin uniform.
Let's begin to condition themfor the workplace.
It's like a pipeline.
Let's condition them.
Dr. Tami (34:01):
that's like the, the, you know, school to prison
pipeline.
You know, the, the, the biggestmisquoted statistic that just
gets on my nerves is aboutreading level in third grade,
and kids are going to prison ifthey're not reading on grade
level, if third grade.
Dr. Courtney (34:20):
Uh, and the challenge I have with that is
because with that study, ittruly wasn't a study that
followed those third gradestudents throughout their whole
journey.
It wasn't, you weren't wakingup, you weren't going into their
neighborhoods to see how theylived.
You did not follow them throughhigh school.
(34:43):
It wasn't a thing.
Dr. Tami (34:43):
no, it, it was not a longitudinal study.
Like, and it just getsmisquoted.
Well, I mean, that's almost justlike, oh, what is her theory?
Like poverty, Ruby Payne.
I don't even get, start on that.
That wasn't even real researcheither.
So like, I got some soap boxes,but these, these I do, I have
some feelings.
(35:04):
Uh, but here's what I'venoticed.
These negative research in airquotes, studies always predict,
marginalized students havingthese very negative outcomes.
And in order to.
know, intercede in thoseoutcomes, we're gonna put in
(35:25):
this system of control.
Dr. Courtney (35:26):
You gotta be the savior.
We have to be the savior, um,because it's trouble.
And so I can pull in research,but I'm gonna just keep it
simple.
What you look for is what youget.
And if you go and you look to bethe savior, you're gonna always
find data and find situationsthat's meet that need.
Um.
(35:48):
Because you're right.
The people that are doing theresearch is not inclusive
research, because if it wereinclusive research, the
questions that you are studying,you would've actually asked that
person to give you the languageto ensure that there are shared
language in the research thatyou're conducting.
And I love to hear someone say,well, I just put out this new
white paper.
(36:09):
How many people read your whitepaper?
20 people.
Let me know the impact of yourwhite paper.
Let me know.
That white paper, that researchyou put out, how many people
picked that white paper up andwent?
Lobbied.
How many people picked thatwhite paper up went and start
(36:31):
volunteering in their community?
How many people picked thatwhite paper up and told the
folks that they wrote about,thank you because I wrote this
study about your experience.
How many people are doing that?
Give me the impact because they,they're intense.
Bless their heart.
(36:52):
Bless their heart.
They intend to do great thingswith their white paper and their
research, but my question is,what is your impact?
Let me know your impact.
Let me hear stories from thosehistorical and systematically
marginalized people that you'rewriting about.
Dr. Tami (37:08):
Yes.
Yes, yes.
Dr. Courtney (37:12):
I can, it is Saturday.
It's 85 degrees in Atlanta.
I'm high.
I'm heated.
I get heated because this issomething that is close and it's
personal.
Dr. Tami (37:23):
it is, it's so personal, part of my career I
spent in higher ed and preparingfuture teachers and, um.
I would always think about this.
In the research and my, mypersonal research was usually
narrative based, because it'sabout people's story.
But also for me, I was like, Idon't wanna take your voice
outta the story'cause it's notreally my story, it's your
(37:44):
story.
So, which is one of the, thechallenges of anything like
narrative, qualitative researchbase, how, me especially, I want
to pro, I don't wanna sayprotect, I want to honor.
The person who is being generousto tell and share their story to
lead to potential impact forothers it is not my story to
(38:09):
tell.
I may just be the vesselcollects to disseminate
Dr. Courtney (38:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (38:14):
the story, and I think.
That is a piece that is missing,like this is, yes, it is your
research, but there are peoplethat are affected and impacted
by this.
I can think of right now, say wehave this, uh, this is a huge
air quote, research around thescience of reading, and Emily
(38:35):
Hanford, who's not even a reliteracy specialist, she's a
journalist who got tractionaround why literacy instruction
should be this one certain wayand it's like taken off, right?
This, to me, speaks exactly whatwe're talking about, systems.
That benefit others over, you'refine.
(38:57):
Like this is like, I don't know.
This is great on my nerves.
'cause I'm like she has aplatform.
Yes.
But I think how we havediscernment around whose voices.
We're listening to whose um,solutions we're listening to and
(39:22):
who is really at the table.
Dr. Courtney (39:24):
Yeah.
We have to be mindful.
Of like our calling, ourvocation because we can do more
harm, especially when we are notputting the ones that matter at
the center.
And when we put ourselves at thecenter and our platform, we use
our platform for the promotionof self.
(39:48):
For our self-worth, we'recausing more harm.
And like I say, systems play outin which they are designed.
You're contributing to a systemthat is already causing harm
Dr. Tami (40:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (40:01):
that people, it's like I, I can vividly just see
it.
Someone building, continuously,building a system and they're.
Building it.
Then you have the other persontearing it down because it's
causing hurt and pain and harm.
But then you got someone who'scatching those bricks, sliding
it to someone else on the otherside and sticking that brick
back into the system.
So you have another person whois building another person's
(40:24):
dismantling.
Then you have someone that'sswooping in because of self
Dr. Tami (40:30):
Mm.
Dr. Courtney (40:30):
and they're putting the bricks back into the
the other spot in which iscausing even more harm.
Dr. Tami (40:36):
Hmm.
Yes.
Yes, And know, I just thinkabout the educators too, that
we're losing because of this,right?
Like we're also taking awaytheir opportunity
Dr. Courtney (40:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (40:52):
respond in the ways that they should be able to as
professionals.
Dr. Courtney (40:58):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (40:58):
To the students that are in front of them.
Dr. Courtney (41:01):
It's show up as your authentic self.
When you show up as yourauthentic self as an educator,
remember, yes, I believe inhaving code of ethics and being
ethical and being respected, butI don't believe in the silencing
of one's voices.
Dr. Tami (41:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (41:19):
It's like I mentioned a five behaviors
earlier.
It made me think about, we wantto say the educators.
Hey, we wanna first thing andlet's pay them more.
Payment is, is also financial,but it's also respect
Dr. Tami (41:37):
Yes.
Dr. Courtney (41:37):
and value.
Can we pay them, uh, with therespect that they will go in and
represent their school districtsin the way that it should be
represented, but in order forthem to show up in that
classroom, that way, thedistrict must practice.
And employ the systems that theywant teachers to employ in their
(41:59):
classroom.
At the district level, theremust be going back to the five
behaviors you gotta have, andthis is for equity, like when I
think about equity work, butwhen I think about organizations
as a whole
Dr. Tami (42:13):
Mm.
Dr. Courtney (42:14):
and having a healthy organization, you gotta
have that trust.
You gotta be open to conflict,be open to hearing that a
teacher may say, the systemsthat we have in place right now.
Not it, be open to thatconflict.
Don't, don't shut them down.
You can accept, although you maynot agree with what people are
pushing back on, and, and it'sthe same for teachers,
(42:34):
districts, teachers, but thenyou're able to get the
commitment from commitment,accountability, and then you can
get the result.
If we want to build a spacewhere we're thriving.
We're making a place better thanwhat it was before we started.
Then we gotta have theseelements in place, but we can't
(42:56):
do it without having a communityof belonging.
We can't,
Dr. Tami (43:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Courtney (43:03):
yeah.
Dr. Tami (43:03):
Okay.
So you were talking about jobdescriptions, And you know, you
mentioned hit the groundrunning.
I think something I see a lot injob descriptions.
And I'm just curious what yourthoughts are about this, um, is
like, must be able to work in afast-paced environment, pivot
quickly with little direction orsomething those lines.
Dr. Courtney (43:29):
Yeah, it is that code for saying we don't have
our stuff together.
And so you may not know whatyou're gonna do your first 90
days.
Be okay with it, you're gettinga paycheck and benefits be okay
with it.
And who's to say?
I, I always see that, but veryseldom do I say see efficient.
(43:51):
I, it is very seldom do I sayefficient, collaborative.
I don't see a lot of that, and Ialso see people say, be
entrepreneurial, which meanscode for, you're not gonna have
all the resources you need, soyou better figure it out.
Dr. Tami (44:08):
I also think that entrepreneurial can mean like
code for, you're gonna put inall the time necessary that may
be an excess of what you shouldreally commit to your employer.
Dr. Courtney (44:19):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (44:20):
Um,
Dr. Courtney (44:21):
Yeah,
Dr. Tami (44:21):
expect you to, to be there and show up when we want
you to.
Dr. Courtney (44:25):
absolutely.
Like.
Being but the other side ofbeing an entrepreneur, which is
also different, that peopledon't talk about, being an
entrepreneur gives you the spaceto have the autonomy.
Dr. Tami (44:38):
Yes.
Dr. Courtney (44:38):
So if you're going to say, be entrepreneurial, have
an entrepreneurial spirit, giveme the space to have autonomy
and be able to make decisions.
Yes, I believe in protocols andprocesses and workflows and
automation.
I believe in that.
Um, I do.
What I also believe in is humanintelligence.
You hired me for this skillset,so please don't micromanage.
(45:01):
Please don't micromanageindividuals.
If you say this, this is mything.
If I give you the destinationand I've, we have a grounding of
core behaviors.
Core values, and like integrityis one of them, and that's
something that I expect of youas you should expect of me.
I don't care how you get to thatdestination, as long as I'm
(45:23):
there to support you, give youfeedback just in time and that
we get there and that you feelsupported.
That's what matters.
Dr. Tami (45:32):
Yes,
Dr. Courtney (45:34):
That's what matters.
It's just like on when I driveto Alabama and it's when I drive
to Alabama, there's um, alwaysroad work on I 85 South.
Our 85 south, it's always roadwork.
It says, and the speed limit isa trap.
It says 80 miles.
(45:54):
And you go, literally, you don'teven go.
You go about half of a mile, 80miles to 50 miles, 75 to 40.
You're going, you're picking upsome space, you're accelerating.
Hit the brakes.
Accelerate, hit the brakes,accelerate, hit the brakes.
That's causing so much harm anddamage.
(46:16):
It's causing you to be out ofalignment.
Dr. Tami (46:18):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (46:19):
It's causing you to be out of alignment'cause
you're gonna slam on brakes, dosome damage to your brakes, and
have to control your car becauseyou're probably going at a speed
and then somebody's in front ofyou slamming on brakes and
you're hitting potholes becausethat's another thing.
But you're out of alignment.
You're outta
Dr. Tami (46:33):
Yes.
Dr. Courtney (46:34):
alignment.
You're out of alignment.
And some of these jobdescriptions are written out of
alignment.
Dr. Tami (46:40):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (46:40):
if they took the organizational culture data, the
org health survey data that theyget, and write their job
descriptions, what would theysay?
Dr. Tami (46:50):
Mm.
That's a
Dr. Courtney (46:52):
would that net promoter score say?
Dr. Tami (46:54):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (46:55):
to put that in your job description?
Dr. Tami (46:58):
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (46:59):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (47:02):
That's an interesting idea too.
Like we're always worried aboutexternal net promoter score, are
we also looking internally?
Dr. Courtney (47:10):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (47:12):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (47:13):
65% of the employees said they would not
refer it to a friend, this placeto a friend.
You put that in the jobdescription and see what
happens.
Dr. Tami (47:24):
Yeah.
That's powerful, powerful data.
Dr. Courtney (47:28):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (47:29):
that's essential for organizations to be looking at.
Dr. Courtney (47:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (47:34):
you know, you see it, you know, you see it time and
time again.
Right?
Dr. Courtney (47:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (47:40):
thinking about that speed analogy, like, do this, oh
no, don't do this, do this.
No, don't do this.
Like, oh, like exactly what you
Dr. Courtney (47:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (47:48):
you because you are innovative and X, Y, or Z.
But now I wanna micromanage howyou do that.
Dr. Courtney (47:53):
Gas lighter's finest.
Dr. Tami (47:55):
You know.
Ooh.
Like that, that, that was apersonal little trigger right
there.
Dr. Courtney (48:01):
I, so sometimes I say trigger, but I like to
change my words.
I say, oh, it activates me.
It activates me.
Dr. Tami (48:08):
Yeah.
That, that one activates me,Courtney.
It activates me
Dr. Courtney (48:12):
Aw,
Dr. Tami (48:12):
like, I'm a little confused.
'cause when you hired me, yousaid, this is what you value
about me, but now you're notletting me do the part that you
actually.
Dr. Courtney (48:22):
yeah.
Dr. Tami (48:23):
Value.
Dr. Courtney (48:24):
Yeah.
And, and it is, it isparticularly different like when
we think about school districtsand places that support learning
of others in, I heard this, Iwas doing a session at, um, for
Soar Atlanta, which is Sherms.
Local, like Atlanta conference,and one thing a person said is
(48:48):
that.
I find it challenging for me towork for a company in which we
don't use our own products,
Dr. Tami (48:56):
Oh.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (48:58):
and I am struggling because I feel that
if we are going out selling aproduct, we need to have
internal customers first.
And they were talking abouttheir learning systems starting
within, and I was like, Hmm.
Oh, it's powerful'cause how canyou sell something in which you
don't have experience or youbelieve in.
Dr. Tami (49:20):
yeah.
It's the back to that, to me,that's put your money where your
mouth is.
Dr. Courtney (49:27):
Yep.
Lemme see a budget.
Lemme see a budget.
Dr. Tami (49:29):
see your budget.
Look, money talks like theyalways say that money talks.
And it
Dr. Courtney (49:33):
does.
Dr. Tami (49:33):
It tells you where your values are.
It really does like what?
Personal values, organizationalvalue, like all the things it
tells you where your values are,
Dr. Courtney (49:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (49:41):
um, with what you wanna invest in.
So, okay.
Well, Courtney, I feel like Icould just keep talking and
talking.
And talking to you.
Um, but I do want to be mindfulfor our, our listeners listen to
the podcast, but I do like toend always with like, what is
just a piece of advice you wannagive someone who's out there
(50:04):
wanting to engage with, know,equity, diversity, inclusion,
belonging, um, maybe they're newon the path, maybe they've, you
know, been on the path for aminute.
What, what's your best advicefor our listeners?
Dr. Courtney (50:19):
Don't be weary in your wellbeing while you do.
Don't be weary in your wellbeingwhile you're doing, because in
order to engage and make shiftsand change, you have to be near
hold yourself and you have takeaction.
Um, we don't need another typestatement so it.
(50:43):
If you are in a space and youwant to truly contribute to
change, know that you can't doit alone.
You can do it in partnership,but don't be weary in your
wellbeing while doing.
Dr. Tami (50:57):
That is perfect advice, um, because it is one
that we sometimes can burnourselves out with our
intentionality around this work.
Dr. Courtney (51:07):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (51:07):
I want you all to be mindful of that as you move
through, as you look to use yourvoices.
Thank you for joining us foranother episode of the Equity
Hour.
Of course, you can find a linkfor Dr.
Courtney, her website, and allof her services in the show
notes.
Until next time.
Dr. Courtney (51:24):
All right, my friends.
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