September 17, 2025 • 48 mins
Author and PhD student Shannon Quist joins Dr. Tami to unpack the false binary of adoption vs. abortion—and the equity issues hiding in plain sight. We trace the Baby Scoop era, Roe v. Wade, evangelical politics, and present-day practices like safe haven boxes and sealed birth certificates. Shannon shares her adoptee journey, the identity costs of transracial adoption, and why open records and community care matter. If you’ve wondered who profits, who’s protected, and who’s erased, this conversation offers language, history, and actions to move beyond either/or thinking toward real reproductive and adoptee justice.
Shannon’s TEDx Talk: Would You Rather? Adoption vs. Abortion
Coaching Discovery Call
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr (00:04):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Equity
Hour with me, your host, Dr.
Tami.
I am so excited for our gueststoday.
We're gonna get to dive intosome what shouldn't be
controversial but is nowcontroversial topics around
equity, but I mean, what isn'tcontroversial at this point
anymore.
(00:24):
But anyway, I have Shannon Quistwith me today.
Hello.
Welcome Shannon.
Shannon Quist (00:29):
Hello.
Happy to be.
Here.
Dr (00:31):
So happy to have you.
Let me tell y'all a little bitabout Shannon.
Shannon Quist is a PhD studentin Rhetoric at Texas Woman's
University in Denton.
She's the author of the novelRoses Locket and the Poetry
Collection Mirrors Made of Ink.
Her master's thesis focused onan adoptee, written narratives
and resulted in a narrativetheory.
(00:52):
She calls Phantom Worlds.
Hmm.
Intriguing, which examines thefunction of character
constructed fantasies innarrative.
She recently gave a TEDx TW talkabout adoption and abortion,
which is now available onYouTube.
Welcome Shannon.
Shannon Quist (01:11):
Thank you.
Dr (01:13):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
And for listeners, I will linkher TEDx talk in the show notes
so you can take a look at that.
Um,'cause of course you weregonna wanna run over and watch
it after we talk about it today.
Shannon Quist (01:26):
Yeah, it's a spicy one.
Dr (01:28):
You know, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I know we talked before Shannon,like about potential for standup
comedian and I think it's there.
I think it's there.
There's some good little gemsy'all in this TEDx talk that you
just have to listen to know.
I'm not gonna give away, I'm notgonna be a spoiler.
(01:49):
So, uh, we're not gonna giveaway the baby with the bath
water today, but.
So Shannon, one of the thingsthat, I always like my listeners
to know and hear about is eachof my guests equity journey,
because one of the things I talkabout is there are lots of
different avenues to the work ofequity and inclusion.
(02:12):
And I think it's reallyimportant for people to hear how
people got involved in this workand also that this work is not a
one-time thing.
It is not a sprint.
It is a marathon.
And you're like, she's like,yes, she's not.
Yes.
Like it's this lifelong journey.
Like I think who we are when westart and enter the work may not
be the same as we are today,which is to me what this work is
(02:37):
all about, right?
Like growing and learning andum.
Reflecting on how we engage andlearn about other people.
So I would love for you to sharea little bit about your entry
into the equity space.
Shannon Quist (02:51):
I mean, definitely.
So exactly.
Like you say, it's been a longjourney and I'm gonna be here a
lot longer.
Dr (03:00):
Yes.
Shannon Quist (03:01):
as you've mentioned, I'm an adopted
person.
I was adopted at birth and, um,I went through some real hard
teenager years where at the timeI thought, this is so wrong.
Everything feels wrong, right?
But at the time, I didn't havelike the vocabulary to
articulate.
How I was feeling and why I wasfeeling that way.
(03:25):
A lot of times I reflect andthink that my entry into this
work, like the activism part,the speaking out part, the
educating myself part, it reallyhappened when I got divorced.
I got divorced when, I was in mybachelor's degree
Dr (03:44):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (03:45):
and my daughter was two.
And, um.
Losing a family because you do,you lose the family when you get
divorced.
It, it almost shocked my entiresystem into remembering, oh,
I've lost a family before.
(04:06):
Right.
Dr (04:07):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (04:08):
So, I went straight into my master's after
my bachelor's and startedlooking into adoption.
One of the first projects I didwas research assistantship
looking at Edna Gladney.
She's credited with, um.
With removing the stampillegitimate
Dr (04:28):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (04:28):
from birth certificates.
That's
Dr (04:30):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (04:31):
know her for.
And she is, adoption agency inFort Worth is named after her.
Right?
Because she did this great bigthing.
Um, well, we got into theresearch and there's not.
Actually any proof
Dr (04:46):
Oh
Shannon Quist (04:46):
did that, that she was responsible for that.
Now, she may have known some ofthe lawyers or politicians that
were responsible for that,
Dr (04:55):
yeah.
Shannon Quist (04:55):
by the time I came sniffing around, everyone
had passed away and there wasnot a paper
Dr (05:02):
Oh wow.
Shannon Quist (05:03):
Right.
And so, and then I startedlooking into the Edna Gladney
organization, the adoptionagency, and immediately was very
repulsed by their practices.
Um, uh, started realizingthere's some things about
adoption that I, an adoptedperson have never thought about,
(05:24):
have never seen.
And so, you know, I, I went onthis deconstruction journey and
I wrote my novel.
I on to, investigate adopteewritten narratives in my
master's thesis.
And boy, when I tell you I was adifferent person back then,
compared to where I stand now, Ijust, I wish I could go back in
(05:48):
time and be like.
going to be so radical littleShannon.
Dr (05:56):
I look, let's just be honest.
I think we all would love to goback and tell our younger selves
like you were gonna get throughthis it.
You may not understand whyyou're experiencing this
challenging moment in timetoday, but it will, you know,
all make sense and.
(06:19):
Recently my daughter had askedme like a question about some
challenging, personal things Ihad experienced.
I'm a, domestic violence,survivor, and she's like, would
you change?
I was like, honestly, I don'twish that on anyone, but I don't
know if I would change itbecause it's also like having
lived and grown and.
(06:40):
Move through that, like made mewho I am today.
Right.
So, so while, what's thatsaying?
Like instead of looking in therear view mirror,'cause it's
smaller, like look through, um,you know, the windshield,
something like that.
Somebody said something likethat.
But, but I love that, right?
Like, how can we say and thinkand have this talk to our
(07:03):
younger selves?
And I recently just did thismeditation exercise where I like
was supposed to meet my futurebest self.
Shannon Quist (07:13):
Ooh, I'm intrigued.
Dr (07:15):
Right.
And so you're imagining like,what, what does your future best
self say to you?
What does she or he, you know,look like?
What is, all of these things,right?
And so how do we then movethrough the world thinking of
ourselves?
Responding to what would ourbest self say to us when we, we
(07:37):
move
Shannon Quist (07:38):
Oh,
Dr (07:38):
through this world?
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (07:40):
immediately I'm struck with this sense of like,
I know, I know what.
What that lady would say,
Dr (07:45):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (07:45):
say, write more, double down, speak up.
Dr (07:50):
Yes.
Yes.
And I think that that is themost important thing, like, I
know people are like, oh, noregrets.
But I think part of no regretsis when you're seeing injustice,
when you're seeing and know thatthere are things that are
happening that are not right,that you use your voice, whether
that's a verbal voice, whetherthat's a written voice, what,
(08:10):
whatever that is, make change,right?
Or just not let it happen.
'cause is your future self gonnabe like, why didn't you say
something?
Shannon Quist (08:20):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And silence and complacency areso, they're so easy.
But we cannot fall into thatkind of thing.
It's, it's just toxic anddangerous.
Dr (08:31):
It is, and I think people, and I think people sometimes
think, well, I'm just oneperson.
Shannon Quist (08:37):
Okay.
Dr (08:38):
Right.
Um, which yes you are.
But one of the reasons I havethis podcast is right, like,
yes, you are just one person,but your journey, Shannon may
speak to someone else who's notsure if they wanna speak out and
like, by sharing your voice.
You build a community and peoplefeel less alone.
And historically, as humanbeings, we have shared and
(09:01):
connected with each other viastory and narrative and, used to
just all be oral history.
But now we have so manydifferent ways to document, our
life experiences, right?
And yes.
Shannon Quist (09:17):
Yes, exactly.
Okay.
Dr (09:19):
You know, I mean, you've written a book, you've written
some poetry those are bothwritten, but they're different
ways of sharing.
And when I think about, um, yourTed.
Talk.
Okay.
So I had, I was like, whew,okay.
(09:39):
First of all, I love, like,Moses was the original adoptee.
I was like, snaps, snaps.
Like, so true, so true.
But I think you bring up somereally good points in there
(09:59):
that, I found really compellingand interesting.
Right.
And I would love, I don't wannagive away the whole thing, but
one of the things that you talkabout is, you know, we had some
shift in adoption.
We, you talked about Roe versusWade, and just for those that
you know, you know, it's calledwould You Rather Right.
Be And it's, it's a, her TEDxtalk is about, you know,
(10:20):
adoption versus abortion andthis, this versus that, which.
Let's be honest.
It's not an either or type ofsituation, which is the point of
your, your whole talk, but youtalked about racism and
adoption.
Shannon Quist (10:38):
Yes.
So that is a major point of thestory that I think we willfully
ignore um, well, on one hand.
We are thinking about adoptionand abortion as these binary
choices, and they're not.
Dr (10:53):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (10:54):
just simply not.
But the reason they're inconversation with each other at
all is because of what happenedin the second wave.
So the baby scoop era endedessentially when Roe v Wade was
passed, and so all of a suddenthere were.
(11:16):
Less white babies because inthose days, who were the people
adopting white Christians?
Right?
Dr (11:25):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (11:26):
And we've sold America on this idea of the
perfect nuclear family.
There's a mama, there's a daddy,and there's little babies, and
they live in a house and there'sa picket fence and there's a
dog, right?
And so when, when women werestruggling with infertility,
this was sold to them as well.
(11:48):
Don't worry, you could just buya baby.
Dr (11:50):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (11:51):
one, right?
Get, buy your washer machine,buy your, you know, dryer and
buy a baby.
So 1950s, like it just hurts.
What happened was that, um, thereason Christians turned against
abortion was because they weretrying to get votes for
(12:13):
desegregating schools, and sothey, they knew they couldn't
run on that issue so theybasically had to, to find
another way to get theircongregations to vote in their
favor, and so they convincedthem abortion.
It's abortion.
(12:33):
I.
Dr (12:34):
Okay, so just to clarify, they were for or against
desegregation when they lumpedabortion together for their
congregation.
Shannon Quist (12:45):
They wanted desegregation, they wanted
segregation,
Dr (12:49):
Okay?
Shannon Quist (12:50):
wanted whites only schools.
Dr (12:52):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (12:53):
And um, I think Brown V.
Board of
Dr (12:57):
of education.
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (12:59):
Passed, and so all of this desegregation was
happening and they were pushingback against it,
Dr (13:07):
Okay.
So it's, you know, that's reallyinteresting to me how, you know,
history.
Just always tends to repeatitself, which when people say
humanities aren't important, ohmy God, they absolutely are.
Right,
Shannon Quist (13:26):
so important.
Dr (13:27):
right.
So, Hmm.
'cause what, okay, this isn'tabout this.
I'm like, sorry, I have likethousands of thoughts going
through my head right now andI'm trying to decide which one I
wanna pick up on.
But like, to me, this goes backto when we think about, um, Jim.
Crow like historically, likepoor whites used to be in
(13:50):
alignment with blacks becausethey were actually the most
similar in lack of access,discrimination, like all of
these things
Shannon Quist (14:02):
right.
Dr (14:06):
like powerful, wealthy whites shifted the narrative
like, Hey.
You wanna come have privilegeslike us so come be a part of us.
You don't wanna be over there'cause we're gonna do these
things.
And this is like the leasthistorically inaccurate
restating of this.
Y'all like look up the history,the real history.
But you know what I'm saying?
This is kind of what hadhappened, right?
Like this is the, this is theCliff's Notes version, y'all.
(14:29):
Like come, come be with us.
'cause you don't wanna be a partof that.
Shannon Quist (14:34):
Some of that happened in adoption too.
Georgia
Dr (14:36):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (14:36):
selling babies to all kinds of people in
Hollywood, you know, and soHollywood Stars are, and, and
Edna Gladney, she's featured ina 1940s movie, and it, it gave a
burst to the adoption industry,and that's what it became.
It became industry.
Dr (14:55):
Oh, for sure and we see it today, wealthy, white.
Persons in power are makingdecisions that only benefit
other white, wealthy persons,but the majority of the people
supporting them are not whitewealthy persons because they've,
(15:18):
that narrative is stillexisting, so.
When I think about equity anddiversity and inclusion, we
think about like socialnarratives.
And this just to me is like oneof those social narratives,
right?
And you brought up Reagan, God,we can thank Reagan for so many
things.
Like, like even like, the drugs,like, you know, just that whole
thing.
(15:38):
Like I had not realized thatReagan was such a huge catalyst
for this adoption.
Versus abortion belief that wenow sort of buy into that, the
(15:59):
collective propaganda has taughtus that it's an either or
situation.
And like you were just saying,like right, like there is like a
million shades of gray inbetween those two options.
Shannon Quist (16:14):
Right, right.
are, and if you wanna talk aboutReagan, I don't know if you
heard the news, but this week.
James Dobson just passed away
Dr (16:25):
Mm.
Shannon Quist (16:25):
um, he was the founder of Focus on the Family.
I, uh, I jab at him in the TEDx
Dr (16:31):
Yes.
Shannon Quist (16:32):
and he actually Dobson, uh, he, he founded Focus
on the Family.
This, Christian Evangelicalgroup that helped, helped
parents, parent their.
Children into Godly adults, um,which is obviously what I am.
But he served as an advisor, notonly for Reagan, but also for,
(16:56):
uh, Trump in 2016.
Dr (16:59):
Hmm.
Shannon Quist (17:00):
And so he lobbied against L-G-B-T-Q persons He
supported, um, he supported.
Beating your children.
And importantly, even though hesaid at some point in the
seventies that the Bible doesn'ttalk about abortion at all, uh,
(17:23):
he famously became very big,very anti-abortion.
so he not only influencedfamilies around the country, he
influenced politics around thecountry.
Dr (17:36):
Yeah, so I, I wanna come back'cause.
To talk about like the babyscoop and what that is.
'cause I don't know if everybodykind of knows what that is.
And then, kind of what happenedwhen, the, the white invent, the
white Evangelical, I can't speaktoday.
(17:58):
Christians, you know, decided tolump in abortion.
To their cause.
Shannon Quist (18:05):
So I mean, the baby Scoop era was kind of at
towards the end of World Warinto the seventies,
Dr (18:13):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (18:13):
was passed and it was just this really, and you
know, like past World War ii,everything got really weird in
America.
We, we often harken back tothose days, right?
We have a lot of nostalgia forthe 1950s for some reason.
And because nuclear familieswere so heavily like marketed, I
(18:37):
guess,
Dr (18:38):
right.
Shannon Quist (18:39):
That's kind of when adoption sprung.
And you know, you think about alot of corporations that are
still standing today.
They began in the 1950s.
There was kind of this like justeconomical resurgence and
adoption got onto the bandwagon,the evangelical stuff didn't
(18:59):
really come around until thelate seventies, mean.
Roe had passed and everythingwas groovy, as they may have
said in the seventies.
There was all of this likeuprising.
There was Vietnam going onsecond wave, feminism going on
(19:22):
all of this like anti-raciststuff,
Dr (19:24):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (19:25):
It was a wonderful civil rights era
Dr (19:28):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (19:29):
and um, and the evangelicals were pushing back
against the civil rights stuffand somehow abortion got roped
into it.
And then, James Domson andothers got into Reagan's ear and
that's, I think when it reallygot pretty political.
Dr (19:50):
Yeah.
And really stayed
Shannon Quist (19:55):
Yeah,
Dr (19:56):
political.
Shannon Quist (19:57):
staying power, so.
Dr (19:59):
Yeah.
Which, you know, of course wehad the recent, overturning of.
Roe versus Wade.
And so I'm curious when we, inthe adoption versus abortion
argument, how do you, like, whathave you seen in your work with
(20:20):
how that overturning of thatreally essential legislation has
come into play?
Um, more recently.
Shannon Quist (20:31):
Mean, it's harming people.
It's harming people because nowinstead of a guaranteed right
across the country, it reallydepends on what state you live
in.
And, I live in Texas, so notgreat.
Women are dying.
Women are dying.
I was really disturbed to seeearlier this year, the woman in
(20:54):
Georgia
Dr (20:55):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (20:56):
was pregnant, as you know, she was in a, was
essentially dead.
Dr (21:02):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (21:03):
Um, but they kept her body alive to keep the baby
alive.
And then, put her to rest afterthe baby was
Dr (21:11):
came to.
Shannon Quist (21:11):
It came to term.
Um, and I, I think a lot of itis just how we look at women in
this country.
Right because I will say thatlike when Roe v Wade fell, some
very important people on theSupreme Court.
(21:32):
The Supreme Court are adoptiveparents.
and that's part of my politicalfrustration is that we have
adoptive parents who are highup.
They're on the Supreme Court.
Governor Greg Abbott of Texas isalso an adoptive parent and
using their power harm.
(21:54):
And what I mean by that is,court Justice.
Amy Coney Barrett, did aninterview or, or maybe this was
in of the oral arguments, Ithink, she said in reference to,
safe havens that, um, they just,the baby boxes where women can
just deposit the baby into a boxand a, and leave it.
(22:17):
Well,
Dr (22:17):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (22:17):
problem.
That's the problem.
It's solved.
If you don't want the baby, thenjust drop it off.
But that doesn't account for ofpregnancies.
It doesn't account for kind ofaccountability to provide
records of any kind to thatchild, which is deeply
(22:39):
irresponsible.
I mean, I.
I hesitate to say lucky'causethat's a little bit of a trigger
word, but I am lucky that I atleast had records my parents,
Dr (22:52):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (22:54):
um, and could later go on and find them.
who are deposited in safe havenboxes do not, they don't have
records.
They're left alone in a box.
can we not treat babies likethis?
Please?
Dr (23:13):
It is wild.
To me that we remove the womanwho is, and, and sometimes not
even a woman.
Sometimes it's a child carryinga child,
Shannon Quist (23:32):
Right.
Dr (23:32):
Outta the equation, and it, the regression.
Into shaming of women for beingpregnant in the first place.
Shannon Quist (23:49):
Yeah.
Dr (23:50):
Really does go back to what you were talking about, like
this enamor with like the 1950s.
In all of the shame, around.
Being pregnant, you know, havingsex before you got married,
right?
But it also, this false love forthat ignores all of the other
(24:11):
things that weren't in, youknow, in existence, like it is
women could not even have theirown, bank of card and credit
card until 1972.
I was born in 1976, like.
So like it is not that long ago.
Shannon Quist (24:31):
Well, and what?
Marital rape wasn't evenoutlawed until the 1990s.
Dr (24:36):
Right.
Shannon Quist (24:37):
Yeah,
Dr (24:38):
So this idea again, that women are second class citizens
to even unborn, children
Shannon Quist (24:50):
right.
Dr (24:52):
is.
Just wild to me.
Like I don't, my mind cannotwrap around how someone can be
like, yeah, this is okay.
And to me this is like, thepatriarchy is still very strong,
everyone, that is why thesethings.
Are being decided.
(25:12):
And I don't know that everyonerealizes like we all grow up
with these like social normsthat we aren't even necessarily
spoken, but because of like howwe're spoken to what media says,
like what, you know, like thisidea of the nuclear family, like
the myth of meritocracy thatexists in the United States.
Like pull yourself up by yourbootstraps.
Like even the idea of.
(25:35):
How we think about sex andalcohol and all of those things,
if we look at the United Statescompared to, quite honestly, the
majority of the world, theydon't have as much shame
associated with some of thesepieces, especially around your,
your, your body
Shannon Quist (25:52):
right.
And it is so much about thebody,
Dr (25:54):
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And.
It's just like, where do we,hmm?
Where do we, we go from here,right?
Because the overturning of thatalso means that women are not
getting needed healthcarebecause, you know, natural
(26:16):
miscarriage.
Is a, is it just, it is a commonthing.
It happens, and I mean, I knowyou know this, but sometimes
when that happens, it doesn'tfully, you know, release from
the body and you need to have aDNC in order to, you know, clear
out your uterus.
Right.
So you can live women and yousee these stories in the news
(26:38):
all the time.
Women can't even get that
Shannon Quist (26:41):
because their health providers are scared.
Dr (26:43):
yeah.
Yeah.
And.
Oh, I remember.
Okay, so I grew up Catholic
Shannon Quist (26:55):
Oh boy.
Dr (26:58):
and I remember in high school going through, the
sacrament of confirmation,right?
And, they had,
Shannon Quist (27:05):
Yeah.
Dr (27:07):
they had a pro-choice speaker.
Come in and gave us like thispin that was supposed to
represent, you know, a baby's afetus's, feet at a certain
amount of time, which, you know,as an adult now, that's actually
totally false.
Like the, the feet aren't eventhat developed at the time that
they said it was.
So, I don't even know where I'mgoing with this story except
(27:30):
that.
People need to learn how to diginto the history of things or
like, is this actually true?
Is this propaganda?
Is it, speaking to ethos,pathos, like all those things
like
Shannon Quist (27:45):
right.
Dr (27:46):
it's aod and emotional.
We can't kill babies, oh mygosh.
What was that?
Do you remember that?
Where someone's like, it waslike a presidential debate or
something about.
Killing babies.
Like, like it was sayingsomething about a state and like
a baby was born and like the repwas like, no, in no state is it
(28:06):
legal to murder a child everborn?
Shannon Quist (28:08):
Oh yes, I do remember that.
Oh my gosh.
But yes, a post term abortion.
Dr (28:16):
Yes.
Like this is the in right.
Like, but this is the insanity.
Of the things we're, we're,we're going through.
So, okay.
I, I feel like I've, like takenus like a totally into left
field, but like to me it's likeall related, right?
Like all of these,
Shannon Quist (28:33):
related.
Dr (28:34):
all of these, these things and so we say your choices are
adoption or abortion, right?
Like, and we're saying that in agood, bad
Shannon Quist (28:49):
Yeah, good, bad life, death way, because death
is abortion and life is,adoption, but it's, it's just
not that.
At all.
Like I could go into so many,like what if scenarios that
would just, we don't even havetime for'em all, and, and that's
the thing is like we all deserveto have individual stories play
(29:15):
out the way that we want them toplay out.
Abortion needs to be available.
the way that the adoptionindustry works right now, don't
think it's working.
You know, so I've recently beenlooking at this story'cause I
began all of this research aslike recovery, right?
(29:36):
Trying to recover these lostvoices and identify the
propaganda, break it down.
But this is a bigger story thanI think I, we, we realize, I
think that, there is thisparallel between adoption.
How we're, we're selling babies,we're separating them from their
(29:57):
families legally.
Right?
And, and settler colonialismseparating the natives from
their land, taking theirchildren into boarding schools,
adopting them out, making themassimilate to the the white
culture I, adoption is only asymptom of that, it parallels
(30:22):
it.
On the family level.
Does that make sense?
Dr (30:29):
It does make sense to me.
Because when we think about, andI know you talked about and
touched on this a little bit inyour TED talk, who is adopting
and who is adopting whichchildren and how are those
children having access Right?
To, you know, culture, racialhistory, awareness around how
(30:57):
you might adopt a child that isoutside of your race, but how
their life experience might, bedifferent
Shannon Quist (31:07):
Right.
Absolutely.
So, yeah, I I was adopted by awhite family.
I know you can tell it bylooking at me, but I genuinely
was so whitewashed that Icouldn't tell it about myself.
Looking in the mirror.
I am Mexican.
I have a deep love of chips andqueso that I have denied for so
(31:32):
many years because for myemotional safety and wellbeing,
had to deny it.
Dr (31:39):
Mm.
Shannon Quist (31:39):
Does that make sense?
Dr (31:41):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (31:42):
Yeah.
And so, you know, it's not justlike the legal separation,
although that is a factorbecause adopted persons, they,
they, in many states, themajority of states in America,
their original birthcertificates are sealed.
They can never access them,they're issued new birth
(32:03):
certificates that list them asthe biological.
Offspring of their adoptiveparents.
The birth certificate is not amedical document.
It's a legal document.
a, a fiction.
Dr (32:17):
Yeah, that is, I don't even know how to say that.
I didn't even know that.
Like, that is wild to me.
Like why, why would you listadoptive parents as the birth
parents?
Like they're not birth parents,they're adoptive parents.
Like why not build.
(32:38):
And I, I feel like this isalmost a rhetorical question,
but why not build a legaldocument that says birth
parents, adoptive parents?
Like why not name it what itactually is
Shannon Quist (32:49):
Because that would strip adoptive parents in
the agencies of power money.
That's why I.
Dr (32:58):
what, okay.
Because I don't know, like whatpower do they get by hiding that
information?
Shannon Quist (33:03):
The adoptive parents historically have this
fear of the birth parents comingback trying to seize the child
back.
So the legal protections are away to say, no, we own this
child.
Here's the paperwork to proveit.
(33:24):
the birth certificate where ournames are listed.
Here's the divorce decree.
You know, we, we paid money, andof course the adoption agency
is, they've gotta make theirmoney.
I can just see you thinking, andI'm sorry I'm dumping all of
this on you.
Dr (33:44):
No, that's the whole point of this podcast, and you know.
I am sure those of youlistening, we just needed to
pause for that for a momentbecause the idea right, that an
(34:06):
adoption agency is there to makemoney versus being a social
service.
Shannon Quist (34:18):
Right.
Dr (34:20):
Is wild because I would guess that most of you listening
right now think of adoptionagencies as social services, and
if there's social services,they're not there to make money.
They are there to support peopletheoretically..
I.
Shannon Quist (34:36):
But in all reality, when I was researching
the Edna Gladney, center in FortWorth, domestic adoptees in
current day and age.
babies who are born here in FortWorth, uh, they go for about 45
grand.
You want a baby from Fort Worth?
It's 45 grand.
Dr (34:59):
Which.
Shannon Quist (35:01):
You should get a car instead, you,
Dr (35:07):
That's about the going right for a car nowadays, which is
wild.
Okay, so that dollar amount,which, you know, people know
adoption isn't inexpensive.
Just like, treating infertilityisn't inexpensive.
None of these things areinexpensive right.
To me, this also.
(35:28):
Brings up an equity issue ofaccess, right?
Who are we trying to make suremeets the quote unquote
narrative of the ideal family?
Like,
Shannon Quist (35:42):
families are mostly wealthier
Dr (35:45):
right.
Well obviously'cause if it's$45,000 like
Shannon Quist (35:49):
Yep.
Dr (35:49):
are you worthy?
To me, this also goes back tothis other narrative, about
like, are you worthy?
To have children and who isworthy right to, to do that, to
raise children.
And so we've made it veryexpensive there's, and then on
the flip side, the irony of thisto me is then you're gonna force
(36:12):
people who maybe are like, I amnot, like one of those gray
areas is like, I am just not ina financial or mature position
or whatever the decision is tohave a child right now.
Right?
Shannon Quist (36:22):
right?
Dr (36:23):
Children are not inexpensive.
Shannon Quist (36:26):
And then there's the further of, of these women
who are not financially able.
The adoption agency is getting$45,000 when in reality, a birth
in hospital fees maybe costseven grand.
Like, what I like to tell is thestory of the day I was born,
(36:50):
right?
I was born, um, my parents werethere.
They released me from thehospital, should say.
All three of my parents werethere.
My adoptive parents came andpicked me up from the hospital.
They released me two days.
My mother stayed there.
My birth mother, uh, she gotsick and so she stayed in the
(37:11):
hospital.
I'd already been taken.
And then after, um, she wasfinally released, they released
her straight out onto thestreets.
There was no social servicesthat said, Hey, do you, you
know, need, need housing?
Do you need help?
Dr (37:32):
You need some counseling.
You just gave a, a child youcarried for nine months.
What you know?
Shannon Quist (37:37):
Nope.
She had served her purpose.
They turned her out onto thestreet.
No compensation.
She did live in the, thematernity home during the
pregnancy, and she was takencare of there.
You know, she was given housingand food or whatever, but the
moment she delivered theproduct, it was over.
Dr (37:58):
I don't know why I'm getting flashes of Handmaid's Tale right
now, but I am, in my mind like.
Shannon Quist (38:03):
Girl, I tell you.
Dr (38:05):
You know, like that, like like women are just incubators
for babies
Shannon Quist (38:10):
mm-hmm.
Dr (38:12):
I'm also thinking about women who are, you know, forced
to carry to term maybe in a morechallenging economic state.
And at the same time we'resaying, you have to have this
child, but then we're cuttingall services to help them
support the child if they don'thave like, right, like.
At the same time, we're makingthese decisions in tandem, and I
(38:33):
don't think people arenecessarily thinking about how
that affects the overallexperience or life of the mother
or, and the father and or, youknow, right.
The caregivers of this child andthe child itself.
Shannon Quist (38:51):
Right.
exactly.
And I think again about like theseparation that's happening
here, because in all actualitylike to talk about adoption as
if it's just a birth mother,just a baby, and just the
adoptive parents.
But in reality, that birthmother has a family.
(39:12):
You know, can, can an aunt takecare of the baby?
Can the grandparents step in?
Is there a best friend down thestreet?
What's going on?
We've separated people fromtheir communities
Dr (39:23):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (39:24):
and then we're making profit off it.
We're making profit off of thesefamilial separations.
We're making it legal, we'reputting it in ink, and just, I
ran outta steam.
I'm just so mad.
Dr (39:40):
I don't even, okay, so I don't even know what to say
anymore.
Like that's where I'm at rightnow and like that is very rare
that I am.
A speechless person.
Let's just be what's call spadeis spade.
Like I usually got something tosay, for real.
Sometimes I don't always say it,but there's always usually
something going on up in thislittle head of mind.
(40:02):
I'm really feeling some sort ofway about this, so I guess I
wanna just kind of like, I thinkwe've got so much for people to
think about.
In what we've been sharing.
So I guess I would like us tokind of think about two things
as we kind of wrap up ourconversation for today.
Like one, do you have anythoughts on what might help
(40:26):
mitigate moving away from thisdichotomy?
And then two, what is sort ofone thing you want the listeners
to take away, from somethingthey should do or could do?
When it comes to thinking aboutequity and racism and all the
things related to adoption andabortion.
Shannon Quist (40:50):
Well, I think for the first bit.
Personally I am, I am anabolitionist.
I believe that we have todismantle the system before we
can build back something better,but I recognize obviously that
in the way of, of most projectslike this, we do have to have a
(41:12):
But in the meantime, and forthat, I think that we need to
start listening to Of theparties involved in adoption
and, and even relatedcommunities like, foster care
and, conceived people.
They're having a really bigmoment right now.
All of these people who in someway are dealing with, severance
(41:36):
from their families, they havereally important things to say
and they say it across thespectrum of, you'll, you'll,
you'll hear all kinds ofstories.
Dr (41:45):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (41:46):
So I think that's important.
And also, like I see a lot ofreally great work going on in,
like the social work andtherapy, corners, like, people
who have been through thesekinds of, traumas and, and life
situations, they, they needsupport.
And I'm glad to see that moreand more people are recognizing
(42:07):
that this is a very uniquesituation that needs unique
support.
Dr (42:11):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (42:13):
Um, can you ask the second part of the question
again?
Dr (42:17):
I absolutely can.
The second part was right,listeners might be feeling a
little bit overwhelmed too.
And so I really like them toleave with like, what is one
thing you wanna suggest thatthey could do or they could
think about, as they, they maybetry to do their own work in this
area or learn more.
Shannon Quist (42:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think listening is honestly some
of the best advice here because,there is, there is a lot.
Of stuff everywhere.
And when you Google it, you willcome across it.
you know, listen and engage withit in good faith, obviously.
Don't be a troll, just listenand ask your questions.
(43:02):
because I think that's how welearn and it's how we build
community with each other.
And I think I, I really comefrom like a feminist background.
I mean, how could I not, Butthis idea of like coalition
amongst different groups ofoppressed minorities,
Dr (43:23):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (43:23):
it's just, it's not just women.
It's not just adoptees.
It's not just LGBTQ plus people.
It's, it's, it's all of us
Dr (43:31):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (43:32):
all have to band together and, you know.
up against racism and ableismand homophobia and xenophobia
and all of the things we'restronger together.
Um, so just being in the roomwhile a conversation is
happening is helpful.
Dr (43:50):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (43:51):
Um, and honestly resting a lot of my work, you
know, um.
I kind of flit in and out of thepublic eye, and that's because I
recognize that I, I always haveto get back up, right,
Dr (44:07):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (44:08):
and shout into the ether in the hopes that
somebody hears me.
But I also have to rest.
Dr (44:15):
Yes.
Shannon Quist (44:16):
And that is very important self-care, because
this kind of work is ongoing.
It's gonna be a lifelongjourney, and it's not gonna end
with my lifetime.
Your lifetime.
Dr (44:27):
Right.
Shannon Quist (44:28):
All of this is going to continue going, so we
have to take those moments,rest, a drink of water, and get
back up.
Dr (44:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
I.
Fully agree with what they apartabout rest.
Um, because it can feel likethis is so overwhelming and you
just have to keep going and justkeep going.
Like just keep swimming.
And you do, but you have toright.
You do have to rest, I, I reallylean into like rest as
(45:02):
resistance and if you haven'tread that, you should.
Right.
Um, and I love what you saidabout community.
I talk about community a lot on,um, the podcast because I really
believe we are meant as humansto live in community.
We are meant to share incommunity.
We are meant to grow incommunity and.
(45:22):
You are right.
We've been isolating andisolated, and when we do come
together, there is power.
So like each individual, right?
That collective is where thechange happens.
So it may start with one person,but as you grow your community
(45:43):
and reach out and connect toother people, um.
That's really where the changehappens and those change happens
in sometimes those smallestmoments that you don't even
think that it's going to happenin.
Shannon Quist (45:56):
Exactly.
Dr (45:57):
thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
I know like I've told you all,like this is a journey.
Like I am learning.
Like this is some, an area thatI am like, oh, I need to like
now I'm now I'm like on fire nowI'm like, I need to learn more
about this.
And so I encourage you to digin.
I'm going to link the TEDx talkin the show notes.
Please check it out.
(46:18):
And remember, please use yourvoice today.
Thank you for joining us foranother episode.
Shannon, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast.
Shannon Quist (46:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
This was a great time.
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Equity
Hour with me, your host, Dr.
Tami.
I am so excited for our gueststoday.
We're gonna get to dive intosome what shouldn't be
controversial but is nowcontroversial topics around
equity, but I mean, what isn'tcontroversial at this point
anymore.
(00:24):
But anyway, I have Shannon Quistwith me today.
Hello.
Welcome Shannon.
Shannon Quist (00:29):
Hello.
Happy to be.
Here.
Dr (00:31):
So happy to have you.
Let me tell y'all a little bitabout Shannon.
Shannon Quist is a PhD studentin Rhetoric at Texas Woman's
University in Denton.
She's the author of the novelRoses Locket and the Poetry
Collection Mirrors Made of Ink.
Her master's thesis focused onan adoptee, written narratives
and resulted in a narrativetheory.
(00:52):
She calls Phantom Worlds.
Hmm.
Intriguing, which examines thefunction of character
constructed fantasies innarrative.
She recently gave a TEDx TW talkabout adoption and abortion,
which is now available onYouTube.
Welcome Shannon.
Shannon Quist (01:11):
Thank you.
Dr (01:13):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
And for listeners, I will linkher TEDx talk in the show notes
so you can take a look at that.
Um,'cause of course you weregonna wanna run over and watch
it after we talk about it today.
Shannon Quist (01:26):
Yeah, it's a spicy one.
Dr (01:28):
You know, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I know we talked before Shannon,like about potential for standup
comedian and I think it's there.
I think it's there.
There's some good little gemsy'all in this TEDx talk that you
just have to listen to know.
I'm not gonna give away, I'm notgonna be a spoiler.
(01:49):
So, uh, we're not gonna giveaway the baby with the bath
water today, but.
So Shannon, one of the thingsthat, I always like my listeners
to know and hear about is eachof my guests equity journey,
because one of the things I talkabout is there are lots of
different avenues to the work ofequity and inclusion.
(02:12):
And I think it's reallyimportant for people to hear how
people got involved in this workand also that this work is not a
one-time thing.
It is not a sprint.
It is a marathon.
And you're like, she's like,yes, she's not.
Yes.
Like it's this lifelong journey.
Like I think who we are when westart and enter the work may not
be the same as we are today,which is to me what this work is
(02:37):
all about, right?
Like growing and learning andum.
Reflecting on how we engage andlearn about other people.
So I would love for you to sharea little bit about your entry
into the equity space.
Shannon Quist (02:51):
I mean, definitely.
So exactly.
Like you say, it's been a longjourney and I'm gonna be here a
lot longer.
Dr (03:00):
Yes.
Shannon Quist (03:01):
as you've mentioned, I'm an adopted
person.
I was adopted at birth and, um,I went through some real hard
teenager years where at the timeI thought, this is so wrong.
Everything feels wrong, right?
But at the time, I didn't havelike the vocabulary to
articulate.
How I was feeling and why I wasfeeling that way.
(03:25):
A lot of times I reflect andthink that my entry into this
work, like the activism part,the speaking out part, the
educating myself part, it reallyhappened when I got divorced.
I got divorced when, I was in mybachelor's degree
Dr (03:44):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (03:45):
and my daughter was two.
And, um.
Losing a family because you do,you lose the family when you get
divorced.
It, it almost shocked my entiresystem into remembering, oh,
I've lost a family before.
(04:06):
Right.
Dr (04:07):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (04:08):
So, I went straight into my master's after
my bachelor's and startedlooking into adoption.
One of the first projects I didwas research assistantship
looking at Edna Gladney.
She's credited with, um.
With removing the stampillegitimate
Dr (04:28):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (04:28):
from birth certificates.
That's
Dr (04:30):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (04:31):
know her for.
And she is, adoption agency inFort Worth is named after her.
Right?
Because she did this great bigthing.
Um, well, we got into theresearch and there's not.
Actually any proof
Dr (04:46):
Oh
Shannon Quist (04:46):
did that, that she was responsible for that.
Now, she may have known some ofthe lawyers or politicians that
were responsible for that,
Dr (04:55):
yeah.
Shannon Quist (04:55):
by the time I came sniffing around, everyone
had passed away and there wasnot a paper
Dr (05:02):
Oh wow.
Shannon Quist (05:03):
Right.
And so, and then I startedlooking into the Edna Gladney
organization, the adoptionagency, and immediately was very
repulsed by their practices.
Um, uh, started realizingthere's some things about
adoption that I, an adoptedperson have never thought about,
(05:24):
have never seen.
And so, you know, I, I went onthis deconstruction journey and
I wrote my novel.
I on to, investigate adopteewritten narratives in my
master's thesis.
And boy, when I tell you I was adifferent person back then,
compared to where I stand now, Ijust, I wish I could go back in
(05:48):
time and be like.
going to be so radical littleShannon.
Dr (05:56):
I look, let's just be honest.
I think we all would love to goback and tell our younger selves
like you were gonna get throughthis it.
You may not understand whyyou're experiencing this
challenging moment in timetoday, but it will, you know,
all make sense and.
(06:19):
Recently my daughter had askedme like a question about some
challenging, personal things Ihad experienced.
I'm a, domestic violence,survivor, and she's like, would
you change?
I was like, honestly, I don'twish that on anyone, but I don't
know if I would change itbecause it's also like having
lived and grown and.
(06:40):
Move through that, like made mewho I am today.
Right.
So, so while, what's thatsaying?
Like instead of looking in therear view mirror,'cause it's
smaller, like look through, um,you know, the windshield,
something like that.
Somebody said something likethat.
But, but I love that, right?
Like, how can we say and thinkand have this talk to our
(07:03):
younger selves?
And I recently just did thismeditation exercise where I like
was supposed to meet my futurebest self.
Shannon Quist (07:13):
Ooh, I'm intrigued.
Dr (07:15):
Right.
And so you're imagining like,what, what does your future best
self say to you?
What does she or he, you know,look like?
What is, all of these things,right?
And so how do we then movethrough the world thinking of
ourselves?
Responding to what would ourbest self say to us when we, we
(07:37):
move
Shannon Quist (07:38):
Oh,
Dr (07:38):
through this world?
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (07:40):
immediately I'm struck with this sense of like,
I know, I know what.
What that lady would say,
Dr (07:45):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (07:45):
say, write more, double down, speak up.
Dr (07:50):
Yes.
Yes.
And I think that that is themost important thing, like, I
know people are like, oh, noregrets.
But I think part of no regretsis when you're seeing injustice,
when you're seeing and know thatthere are things that are
happening that are not right,that you use your voice, whether
that's a verbal voice, whetherthat's a written voice, what,
(08:10):
whatever that is, make change,right?
Or just not let it happen.
'cause is your future self gonnabe like, why didn't you say
something?
Shannon Quist (08:20):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And silence and complacency areso, they're so easy.
But we cannot fall into thatkind of thing.
It's, it's just toxic anddangerous.
Dr (08:31):
It is, and I think people, and I think people sometimes
think, well, I'm just oneperson.
Shannon Quist (08:37):
Okay.
Dr (08:38):
Right.
Um, which yes you are.
But one of the reasons I havethis podcast is right, like,
yes, you are just one person,but your journey, Shannon may
speak to someone else who's notsure if they wanna speak out and
like, by sharing your voice.
You build a community and peoplefeel less alone.
And historically, as humanbeings, we have shared and
(09:01):
connected with each other viastory and narrative and, used to
just all be oral history.
But now we have so manydifferent ways to document, our
life experiences, right?
And yes.
Shannon Quist (09:17):
Yes, exactly.
Okay.
Dr (09:19):
You know, I mean, you've written a book, you've written
some poetry those are bothwritten, but they're different
ways of sharing.
And when I think about, um, yourTed.
Talk.
Okay.
So I had, I was like, whew,okay.
(09:39):
First of all, I love, like,Moses was the original adoptee.
I was like, snaps, snaps.
Like, so true, so true.
But I think you bring up somereally good points in there
(09:59):
that, I found really compellingand interesting.
Right.
And I would love, I don't wannagive away the whole thing, but
one of the things that you talkabout is, you know, we had some
shift in adoption.
We, you talked about Roe versusWade, and just for those that
you know, you know, it's calledwould You Rather Right.
Be And it's, it's a, her TEDxtalk is about, you know,
(10:20):
adoption versus abortion andthis, this versus that, which.
Let's be honest.
It's not an either or type ofsituation, which is the point of
your, your whole talk, but youtalked about racism and
adoption.
Shannon Quist (10:38):
Yes.
So that is a major point of thestory that I think we willfully
ignore um, well, on one hand.
We are thinking about adoptionand abortion as these binary
choices, and they're not.
Dr (10:53):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (10:54):
just simply not.
But the reason they're inconversation with each other at
all is because of what happenedin the second wave.
So the baby scoop era endedessentially when Roe v Wade was
passed, and so all of a suddenthere were.
(11:16):
Less white babies because inthose days, who were the people
adopting white Christians?
Right?
Dr (11:25):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (11:26):
And we've sold America on this idea of the
perfect nuclear family.
There's a mama, there's a daddy,and there's little babies, and
they live in a house and there'sa picket fence and there's a
dog, right?
And so when, when women werestruggling with infertility,
this was sold to them as well.
(11:48):
Don't worry, you could just buya baby.
Dr (11:50):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (11:51):
one, right?
Get, buy your washer machine,buy your, you know, dryer and
buy a baby.
So 1950s, like it just hurts.
What happened was that, um, thereason Christians turned against
abortion was because they weretrying to get votes for
(12:13):
desegregating schools, and sothey, they knew they couldn't
run on that issue so theybasically had to, to find
another way to get theircongregations to vote in their
favor, and so they convincedthem abortion.
It's abortion.
(12:33):
I.
Dr (12:34):
Okay, so just to clarify, they were for or against
desegregation when they lumpedabortion together for their
congregation.
Shannon Quist (12:45):
They wanted desegregation, they wanted
segregation,
Dr (12:49):
Okay?
Shannon Quist (12:50):
wanted whites only schools.
Dr (12:52):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (12:53):
And um, I think Brown V.
Board of
Dr (12:57):
of education.
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (12:59):
Passed, and so all of this desegregation was
happening and they were pushingback against it,
Dr (13:07):
Okay.
So it's, you know, that's reallyinteresting to me how, you know,
history.
Just always tends to repeatitself, which when people say
humanities aren't important, ohmy God, they absolutely are.
Right,
Shannon Quist (13:26):
so important.
Dr (13:27):
right.
So, Hmm.
'cause what, okay, this isn'tabout this.
I'm like, sorry, I have likethousands of thoughts going
through my head right now andI'm trying to decide which one I
wanna pick up on.
But like, to me, this goes backto when we think about, um, Jim.
Crow like historically, likepoor whites used to be in
(13:50):
alignment with blacks becausethey were actually the most
similar in lack of access,discrimination, like all of
these things
Shannon Quist (14:02):
right.
Dr (14:06):
like powerful, wealthy whites shifted the narrative
like, Hey.
You wanna come have privilegeslike us so come be a part of us.
You don't wanna be over there'cause we're gonna do these
things.
And this is like the leasthistorically inaccurate
restating of this.
Y'all like look up the history,the real history.
But you know what I'm saying?
This is kind of what hadhappened, right?
Like this is the, this is theCliff's Notes version, y'all.
(14:29):
Like come, come be with us.
'cause you don't wanna be a partof that.
Shannon Quist (14:34):
Some of that happened in adoption too.
Georgia
Dr (14:36):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (14:36):
selling babies to all kinds of people in
Hollywood, you know, and soHollywood Stars are, and, and
Edna Gladney, she's featured ina 1940s movie, and it, it gave a
burst to the adoption industry,and that's what it became.
It became industry.
Dr (14:55):
Oh, for sure and we see it today, wealthy, white.
Persons in power are makingdecisions that only benefit
other white, wealthy persons,but the majority of the people
supporting them are not whitewealthy persons because they've,
(15:18):
that narrative is stillexisting, so.
When I think about equity anddiversity and inclusion, we
think about like socialnarratives.
And this just to me is like oneof those social narratives,
right?
And you brought up Reagan, God,we can thank Reagan for so many
things.
Like, like even like, the drugs,like, you know, just that whole
thing.
(15:38):
Like I had not realized thatReagan was such a huge catalyst
for this adoption.
Versus abortion belief that wenow sort of buy into that, the
(15:59):
collective propaganda has taughtus that it's an either or
situation.
And like you were just saying,like right, like there is like a
million shades of gray inbetween those two options.
Shannon Quist (16:14):
Right, right.
are, and if you wanna talk aboutReagan, I don't know if you
heard the news, but this week.
James Dobson just passed away
Dr (16:25):
Mm.
Shannon Quist (16:25):
um, he was the founder of Focus on the Family.
I, uh, I jab at him in the TEDx
Dr (16:31):
Yes.
Shannon Quist (16:32):
and he actually Dobson, uh, he, he founded Focus
on the Family.
This, Christian Evangelicalgroup that helped, helped
parents, parent their.
Children into Godly adults, um,which is obviously what I am.
But he served as an advisor, notonly for Reagan, but also for,
(16:56):
uh, Trump in 2016.
Dr (16:59):
Hmm.
Shannon Quist (17:00):
And so he lobbied against L-G-B-T-Q persons He
supported, um, he supported.
Beating your children.
And importantly, even though hesaid at some point in the
seventies that the Bible doesn'ttalk about abortion at all, uh,
(17:23):
he famously became very big,very anti-abortion.
so he not only influencedfamilies around the country, he
influenced politics around thecountry.
Dr (17:36):
Yeah, so I, I wanna come back'cause.
To talk about like the babyscoop and what that is.
'cause I don't know if everybodykind of knows what that is.
And then, kind of what happenedwhen, the, the white invent, the
white Evangelical, I can't speaktoday.
(17:58):
Christians, you know, decided tolump in abortion.
To their cause.
Shannon Quist (18:05):
So I mean, the baby Scoop era was kind of at
towards the end of World Warinto the seventies,
Dr (18:13):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (18:13):
was passed and it was just this really, and you
know, like past World War ii,everything got really weird in
America.
We, we often harken back tothose days, right?
We have a lot of nostalgia forthe 1950s for some reason.
And because nuclear familieswere so heavily like marketed, I
(18:37):
guess,
Dr (18:38):
right.
Shannon Quist (18:39):
That's kind of when adoption sprung.
And you know, you think about alot of corporations that are
still standing today.
They began in the 1950s.
There was kind of this like justeconomical resurgence and
adoption got onto the bandwagon,the evangelical stuff didn't
(18:59):
really come around until thelate seventies, mean.
Roe had passed and everythingwas groovy, as they may have
said in the seventies.
There was all of this likeuprising.
There was Vietnam going onsecond wave, feminism going on
(19:22):
all of this like anti-raciststuff,
Dr (19:24):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (19:25):
It was a wonderful civil rights era
Dr (19:28):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (19:29):
and um, and the evangelicals were pushing back
against the civil rights stuffand somehow abortion got roped
into it.
And then, James Domson andothers got into Reagan's ear and
that's, I think when it reallygot pretty political.
Dr (19:50):
Yeah.
And really stayed
Shannon Quist (19:55):
Yeah,
Dr (19:56):
political.
Shannon Quist (19:57):
staying power, so.
Dr (19:59):
Yeah.
Which, you know, of course wehad the recent, overturning of.
Roe versus Wade.
And so I'm curious when we, inthe adoption versus abortion
argument, how do you, like, whathave you seen in your work with
(20:20):
how that overturning of thatreally essential legislation has
come into play?
Um, more recently.
Shannon Quist (20:31):
Mean, it's harming people.
It's harming people because nowinstead of a guaranteed right
across the country, it reallydepends on what state you live
in.
And, I live in Texas, so notgreat.
Women are dying.
Women are dying.
I was really disturbed to seeearlier this year, the woman in
(20:54):
Georgia
Dr (20:55):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (20:56):
was pregnant, as you know, she was in a, was
essentially dead.
Dr (21:02):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (21:03):
Um, but they kept her body alive to keep the baby
alive.
And then, put her to rest afterthe baby was
Dr (21:11):
came to.
Shannon Quist (21:11):
It came to term.
Um, and I, I think a lot of itis just how we look at women in
this country.
Right because I will say thatlike when Roe v Wade fell, some
very important people on theSupreme Court.
(21:32):
The Supreme Court are adoptiveparents.
and that's part of my politicalfrustration is that we have
adoptive parents who are highup.
They're on the Supreme Court.
Governor Greg Abbott of Texas isalso an adoptive parent and
using their power harm.
(21:54):
And what I mean by that is,court Justice.
Amy Coney Barrett, did aninterview or, or maybe this was
in of the oral arguments, Ithink, she said in reference to,
safe havens that, um, they just,the baby boxes where women can
just deposit the baby into a boxand a, and leave it.
(22:17):
Well,
Dr (22:17):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (22:17):
problem.
That's the problem.
It's solved.
If you don't want the baby, thenjust drop it off.
But that doesn't account for ofpregnancies.
It doesn't account for kind ofaccountability to provide
records of any kind to thatchild, which is deeply
(22:39):
irresponsible.
I mean, I.
I hesitate to say lucky'causethat's a little bit of a trigger
word, but I am lucky that I atleast had records my parents,
Dr (22:52):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (22:54):
um, and could later go on and find them.
who are deposited in safe havenboxes do not, they don't have
records.
They're left alone in a box.
can we not treat babies likethis?
Please?
Dr (23:13):
It is wild.
To me that we remove the womanwho is, and, and sometimes not
even a woman.
Sometimes it's a child carryinga child,
Shannon Quist (23:32):
Right.
Dr (23:32):
Outta the equation, and it, the regression.
Into shaming of women for beingpregnant in the first place.
Shannon Quist (23:49):
Yeah.
Dr (23:50):
Really does go back to what you were talking about, like
this enamor with like the 1950s.
In all of the shame, around.
Being pregnant, you know, havingsex before you got married,
right?
But it also, this false love forthat ignores all of the other
(24:11):
things that weren't in, youknow, in existence, like it is
women could not even have theirown, bank of card and credit
card until 1972.
I was born in 1976, like.
So like it is not that long ago.
Shannon Quist (24:31):
Well, and what?
Marital rape wasn't evenoutlawed until the 1990s.
Dr (24:36):
Right.
Shannon Quist (24:37):
Yeah,
Dr (24:38):
So this idea again, that women are second class citizens
to even unborn, children
Shannon Quist (24:50):
right.
Dr (24:52):
is.
Just wild to me.
Like I don't, my mind cannotwrap around how someone can be
like, yeah, this is okay.
And to me this is like, thepatriarchy is still very strong,
everyone, that is why thesethings.
Are being decided.
(25:12):
And I don't know that everyonerealizes like we all grow up
with these like social normsthat we aren't even necessarily
spoken, but because of like howwe're spoken to what media says,
like what, you know, like thisidea of the nuclear family, like
the myth of meritocracy thatexists in the United States.
Like pull yourself up by yourbootstraps.
Like even the idea of.
(25:35):
How we think about sex andalcohol and all of those things,
if we look at the United Statescompared to, quite honestly, the
majority of the world, theydon't have as much shame
associated with some of thesepieces, especially around your,
your, your body
Shannon Quist (25:52):
right.
And it is so much about thebody,
Dr (25:54):
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And.
It's just like, where do we,hmm?
Where do we, we go from here,right?
Because the overturning of thatalso means that women are not
getting needed healthcarebecause, you know, natural
(26:16):
miscarriage.
Is a, is it just, it is a commonthing.
It happens, and I mean, I knowyou know this, but sometimes
when that happens, it doesn'tfully, you know, release from
the body and you need to have aDNC in order to, you know, clear
out your uterus.
Right.
So you can live women and yousee these stories in the news
(26:38):
all the time.
Women can't even get that
Shannon Quist (26:41):
because their health providers are scared.
Dr (26:43):
yeah.
Yeah.
And.
Oh, I remember.
Okay, so I grew up Catholic
Shannon Quist (26:55):
Oh boy.
Dr (26:58):
and I remember in high school going through, the
sacrament of confirmation,right?
And, they had,
Shannon Quist (27:05):
Yeah.
Dr (27:07):
they had a pro-choice speaker.
Come in and gave us like thispin that was supposed to
represent, you know, a baby's afetus's, feet at a certain
amount of time, which, you know,as an adult now, that's actually
totally false.
Like the, the feet aren't eventhat developed at the time that
they said it was.
So, I don't even know where I'mgoing with this story except
(27:30):
that.
People need to learn how to diginto the history of things or
like, is this actually true?
Is this propaganda?
Is it, speaking to ethos,pathos, like all those things
like
Shannon Quist (27:45):
right.
Dr (27:46):
it's aod and emotional.
We can't kill babies, oh mygosh.
What was that?
Do you remember that?
Where someone's like, it waslike a presidential debate or
something about.
Killing babies.
Like, like it was sayingsomething about a state and like
a baby was born and like the repwas like, no, in no state is it
(28:06):
legal to murder a child everborn?
Shannon Quist (28:08):
Oh yes, I do remember that.
Oh my gosh.
But yes, a post term abortion.
Dr (28:16):
Yes.
Like this is the in right.
Like, but this is the insanity.
Of the things we're, we're,we're going through.
So, okay.
I, I feel like I've, like takenus like a totally into left
field, but like to me it's likeall related, right?
Like all of these,
Shannon Quist (28:33):
related.
Dr (28:34):
all of these, these things and so we say your choices are
adoption or abortion, right?
Like, and we're saying that in agood, bad
Shannon Quist (28:49):
Yeah, good, bad life, death way, because death
is abortion and life is,adoption, but it's, it's just
not that.
At all.
Like I could go into so many,like what if scenarios that
would just, we don't even havetime for'em all, and, and that's
the thing is like we all deserveto have individual stories play
(29:15):
out the way that we want them toplay out.
Abortion needs to be available.
the way that the adoptionindustry works right now, don't
think it's working.
You know, so I've recently beenlooking at this story'cause I
began all of this research aslike recovery, right?
(29:36):
Trying to recover these lostvoices and identify the
propaganda, break it down.
But this is a bigger story thanI think I, we, we realize, I
think that, there is thisparallel between adoption.
How we're, we're selling babies,we're separating them from their
(29:57):
families legally.
Right?
And, and settler colonialismseparating the natives from
their land, taking theirchildren into boarding schools,
adopting them out, making themassimilate to the the white
culture I, adoption is only asymptom of that, it parallels
(30:22):
it.
On the family level.
Does that make sense?
Dr (30:29):
It does make sense to me.
Because when we think about, andI know you talked about and
touched on this a little bit inyour TED talk, who is adopting
and who is adopting whichchildren and how are those
children having access Right?
To, you know, culture, racialhistory, awareness around how
(30:57):
you might adopt a child that isoutside of your race, but how
their life experience might, bedifferent
Shannon Quist (31:07):
Right.
Absolutely.
So, yeah, I I was adopted by awhite family.
I know you can tell it bylooking at me, but I genuinely
was so whitewashed that Icouldn't tell it about myself.
Looking in the mirror.
I am Mexican.
I have a deep love of chips andqueso that I have denied for so
(31:32):
many years because for myemotional safety and wellbeing,
had to deny it.
Dr (31:39):
Mm.
Shannon Quist (31:39):
Does that make sense?
Dr (31:41):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (31:42):
Yeah.
And so, you know, it's not justlike the legal separation,
although that is a factorbecause adopted persons, they,
they, in many states, themajority of states in America,
their original birthcertificates are sealed.
They can never access them,they're issued new birth
(32:03):
certificates that list them asthe biological.
Offspring of their adoptiveparents.
The birth certificate is not amedical document.
It's a legal document.
a, a fiction.
Dr (32:17):
Yeah, that is, I don't even know how to say that.
I didn't even know that.
Like, that is wild to me.
Like why, why would you listadoptive parents as the birth
parents?
Like they're not birth parents,they're adoptive parents.
Like why not build.
(32:38):
And I, I feel like this isalmost a rhetorical question,
but why not build a legaldocument that says birth
parents, adoptive parents?
Like why not name it what itactually is
Shannon Quist (32:49):
Because that would strip adoptive parents in
the agencies of power money.
That's why I.
Dr (32:58):
what, okay.
Because I don't know, like whatpower do they get by hiding that
information?
Shannon Quist (33:03):
The adoptive parents historically have this
fear of the birth parents comingback trying to seize the child
back.
So the legal protections are away to say, no, we own this
child.
Here's the paperwork to proveit.
(33:24):
the birth certificate where ournames are listed.
Here's the divorce decree.
You know, we, we paid money, andof course the adoption agency
is, they've gotta make theirmoney.
I can just see you thinking, andI'm sorry I'm dumping all of
this on you.
Dr (33:44):
No, that's the whole point of this podcast, and you know.
I am sure those of youlistening, we just needed to
pause for that for a momentbecause the idea right, that an
(34:06):
adoption agency is there to makemoney versus being a social
service.
Shannon Quist (34:18):
Right.
Dr (34:20):
Is wild because I would guess that most of you listening
right now think of adoptionagencies as social services, and
if there's social services,they're not there to make money.
They are there to support peopletheoretically..
I.
Shannon Quist (34:36):
But in all reality, when I was researching
the Edna Gladney, center in FortWorth, domestic adoptees in
current day and age.
babies who are born here in FortWorth, uh, they go for about 45
grand.
You want a baby from Fort Worth?
It's 45 grand.
Dr (34:59):
Which.
Shannon Quist (35:01):
You should get a car instead, you,
Dr (35:07):
That's about the going right for a car nowadays, which is
wild.
Okay, so that dollar amount,which, you know, people know
adoption isn't inexpensive.
Just like, treating infertilityisn't inexpensive.
None of these things areinexpensive right.
To me, this also.
(35:28):
Brings up an equity issue ofaccess, right?
Who are we trying to make suremeets the quote unquote
narrative of the ideal family?
Like,
Shannon Quist (35:42):
families are mostly wealthier
Dr (35:45):
right.
Well obviously'cause if it's$45,000 like
Shannon Quist (35:49):
Yep.
Dr (35:49):
are you worthy?
To me, this also goes back tothis other narrative, about
like, are you worthy?
To have children and who isworthy right to, to do that, to
raise children.
And so we've made it veryexpensive there's, and then on
the flip side, the irony of thisto me is then you're gonna force
(36:12):
people who maybe are like, I amnot, like one of those gray
areas is like, I am just not ina financial or mature position
or whatever the decision is tohave a child right now.
Right?
Shannon Quist (36:22):
right?
Dr (36:23):
Children are not inexpensive.
Shannon Quist (36:26):
And then there's the further of, of these women
who are not financially able.
The adoption agency is getting$45,000 when in reality, a birth
in hospital fees maybe costseven grand.
Like, what I like to tell is thestory of the day I was born,
(36:50):
right?
I was born, um, my parents werethere.
They released me from thehospital, should say.
All three of my parents werethere.
My adoptive parents came andpicked me up from the hospital.
They released me two days.
My mother stayed there.
My birth mother, uh, she gotsick and so she stayed in the
(37:11):
hospital.
I'd already been taken.
And then after, um, she wasfinally released, they released
her straight out onto thestreets.
There was no social servicesthat said, Hey, do you, you
know, need, need housing?
Do you need help?
Dr (37:32):
You need some counseling.
You just gave a, a child youcarried for nine months.
What you know?
Shannon Quist (37:37):
Nope.
She had served her purpose.
They turned her out onto thestreet.
No compensation.
She did live in the, thematernity home during the
pregnancy, and she was takencare of there.
You know, she was given housingand food or whatever, but the
moment she delivered theproduct, it was over.
Dr (37:58):
I don't know why I'm getting flashes of Handmaid's Tale right
now, but I am, in my mind like.
Shannon Quist (38:03):
Girl, I tell you.
Dr (38:05):
You know, like that, like like women are just incubators
for babies
Shannon Quist (38:10):
mm-hmm.
Dr (38:12):
I'm also thinking about women who are, you know, forced
to carry to term maybe in a morechallenging economic state.
And at the same time we'resaying, you have to have this
child, but then we're cuttingall services to help them
support the child if they don'thave like, right, like.
At the same time, we're makingthese decisions in tandem, and I
(38:33):
don't think people arenecessarily thinking about how
that affects the overallexperience or life of the mother
or, and the father and or, youknow, right.
The caregivers of this child andthe child itself.
Shannon Quist (38:51):
Right.
exactly.
And I think again about like theseparation that's happening
here, because in all actualitylike to talk about adoption as
if it's just a birth mother,just a baby, and just the
adoptive parents.
But in reality, that birthmother has a family.
(39:12):
You know, can, can an aunt takecare of the baby?
Can the grandparents step in?
Is there a best friend down thestreet?
What's going on?
We've separated people fromtheir communities
Dr (39:23):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (39:24):
and then we're making profit off it.
We're making profit off of thesefamilial separations.
We're making it legal, we'reputting it in ink, and just, I
ran outta steam.
I'm just so mad.
Dr (39:40):
I don't even, okay, so I don't even know what to say
anymore.
Like that's where I'm at rightnow and like that is very rare
that I am.
A speechless person.
Let's just be what's call spadeis spade.
Like I usually got something tosay, for real.
Sometimes I don't always say it,but there's always usually
something going on up in thislittle head of mind.
(40:02):
I'm really feeling some sort ofway about this, so I guess I
wanna just kind of like, I thinkwe've got so much for people to
think about.
In what we've been sharing.
So I guess I would like us tokind of think about two things
as we kind of wrap up ourconversation for today.
Like one, do you have anythoughts on what might help
(40:26):
mitigate moving away from thisdichotomy?
And then two, what is sort ofone thing you want the listeners
to take away, from somethingthey should do or could do?
When it comes to thinking aboutequity and racism and all the
things related to adoption andabortion.
Shannon Quist (40:50):
Well, I think for the first bit.
Personally I am, I am anabolitionist.
I believe that we have todismantle the system before we
can build back something better,but I recognize obviously that
in the way of, of most projectslike this, we do have to have a
(41:12):
But in the meantime, and forthat, I think that we need to
start listening to Of theparties involved in adoption
and, and even relatedcommunities like, foster care
and, conceived people.
They're having a really bigmoment right now.
All of these people who in someway are dealing with, severance
(41:36):
from their families, they havereally important things to say
and they say it across thespectrum of, you'll, you'll,
you'll hear all kinds ofstories.
Dr (41:45):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (41:46):
So I think that's important.
And also, like I see a lot ofreally great work going on in,
like the social work andtherapy, corners, like, people
who have been through thesekinds of, traumas and, and life
situations, they, they needsupport.
And I'm glad to see that moreand more people are recognizing
(42:07):
that this is a very uniquesituation that needs unique
support.
Dr (42:11):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (42:13):
Um, can you ask the second part of the question
again?
Dr (42:17):
I absolutely can.
The second part was right,listeners might be feeling a
little bit overwhelmed too.
And so I really like them toleave with like, what is one
thing you wanna suggest thatthey could do or they could
think about, as they, they maybetry to do their own work in this
area or learn more.
Shannon Quist (42:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think listening is honestly some
of the best advice here because,there is, there is a lot.
Of stuff everywhere.
And when you Google it, you willcome across it.
you know, listen and engage withit in good faith, obviously.
Don't be a troll, just listenand ask your questions.
(43:02):
because I think that's how welearn and it's how we build
community with each other.
And I think I, I really comefrom like a feminist background.
I mean, how could I not, Butthis idea of like coalition
amongst different groups ofoppressed minorities,
Dr (43:23):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (43:23):
it's just, it's not just women.
It's not just adoptees.
It's not just LGBTQ plus people.
It's, it's, it's all of us
Dr (43:31):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (43:32):
all have to band together and, you know.
up against racism and ableismand homophobia and xenophobia
and all of the things we'restronger together.
Um, so just being in the roomwhile a conversation is
happening is helpful.
Dr (43:50):
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist (43:51):
Um, and honestly resting a lot of my work, you
know, um.
I kind of flit in and out of thepublic eye, and that's because I
recognize that I, I always haveto get back up, right,
Dr (44:07):
Yeah.
Shannon Quist (44:08):
and shout into the ether in the hopes that
somebody hears me.
But I also have to rest.
Dr (44:15):
Yes.
Shannon Quist (44:16):
And that is very important self-care, because
this kind of work is ongoing.
It's gonna be a lifelongjourney, and it's not gonna end
with my lifetime.
Your lifetime.
Dr (44:27):
Right.
Shannon Quist (44:28):
All of this is going to continue going, so we
have to take those moments,rest, a drink of water, and get
back up.
Dr (44:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
I.
Fully agree with what they apartabout rest.
Um, because it can feel likethis is so overwhelming and you
just have to keep going and justkeep going.
Like just keep swimming.
And you do, but you have toright.
You do have to rest, I, I reallylean into like rest as
(45:02):
resistance and if you haven'tread that, you should.
Right.
Um, and I love what you saidabout community.
I talk about community a lot on,um, the podcast because I really
believe we are meant as humansto live in community.
We are meant to share incommunity.
We are meant to grow incommunity and.
(45:22):
You are right.
We've been isolating andisolated, and when we do come
together, there is power.
So like each individual, right?
That collective is where thechange happens.
So it may start with one person,but as you grow your community
(45:43):
and reach out and connect toother people, um.
That's really where the changehappens and those change happens
in sometimes those smallestmoments that you don't even
think that it's going to happenin.
Shannon Quist (45:56):
Exactly.
Dr (45:57):
thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
I know like I've told you all,like this is a journey.
Like I am learning.
Like this is some, an area thatI am like, oh, I need to like
now I'm now I'm like on fire nowI'm like, I need to learn more
about this.
And so I encourage you to digin.
I'm going to link the TEDx talkin the show notes.
Please check it out.
(46:18):
And remember, please use yourvoice today.
Thank you for joining us foranother episode.
Shannon, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast.
Shannon Quist (46:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
This was a great time.
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