May 20, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode of The Equity Hour, Dr. Tami speaks with Leroy Smith, an educational leader and advocate, about the power of culturally affirming education, trauma-informed practices, and what it means to center justice in daily school life. Through personal stories and professional insights, this conversation highlights how resistance shows up in the everyday work of educators who believe in equity for all students—especially Black boys and neurodivergent learners.
Topics Covered:
- Culturally responsive curriculum & pedagogy
- Supporting students with IEPs and learning differences
- Affirmation and visibility for marginalized youth
- Healing-centered leadership
- Community-rooted educational change
Resources Mentioned:
- Wake by Dr. Rebecca Hall
- Healing-centered work by Dr. Shawn Ginwright
Connect with Leroy: https://realizedsolutionsllc.com/
Summer Webinar Series
Coaching Discovery Call
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr (00:03):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Equity
Hour with me, your host, Dr.
Tami.
Dean.
I am so excited to have Leroy ASmith in the house with us today
as my guest, uh, Leroy.
Hello.
Leroy Smith (00:22):
How are you?
Dr (00:23):
I'm doing pretty well hanging in there.
Spring is springing, which Ilove, which I love.
Leroy Smith (00:27):
yes.
Love spring.
Dr (00:29):
Yes.
Other than
Leroy Smith (00:30):
the allergies.
Dr (00:31):
Oh, yes, we can, we can, the allergies can go back to where
they are, but, um, so everyone,Leroy is an education leader, a
curriculum specialist, and anadvocate dedicated to empowering
students and the educators whoserve them.
His passion for education wasshaped by his personal
experiences of inequity,inspiring his lifelong
commitment to ensuring allstudents, regardless of
(00:53):
background or ability, have theopportunity.
To succeed.
So exciting and so much linewith myself.
I know we've talked a little bitabout that.
And you know, really exciting.
He does vocal music.
And then in 2020 he founded theRealized Curriculum Solution,
which provides curriculumdesign, professional
(01:13):
development, and specialeducation advocacy services.
So he is worked with a ton ofstudents, over 10,000 of them,
and has partnered with CarnegieLearning.
So welcome to the show.
Leroy Smith (01:25):
Thank you for having me.
Dr (01:27):
I'm
Leroy Smith (01:27):
excited.
Dr (01:28):
Thank you for coming.
I am so excited.
I'm so excited.
I cannot wait to hear and learnmore about all the work that you
do.
One, because selfishly, you, youand I are like kindred spirits
in our journey, which, um,always speaks to me.
But let's talk about thatjourney because that is one of
the things, I always want peopleto hear how people got to this
(01:49):
work and what they've done,because oftentimes, and I think
in the current climateespecially, it can feel like
it's something we shouldn't bedoing, or it's like a task
versus a way of being or actingor moving in the world.
So tell us a little bit about.
Your equity journey, like whatgot you here, uh, and what you
(02:12):
do.
Leroy Smith (02:13):
Sure.
So.
My journey starts.
I'm a Baltimore boy, as I liketo say to people.
one of, I, I like steam crabs,but I prefer crab cakes in crab
soup
Dr (02:24):
Ooh.
Leroy Smith (02:24):
That's my preference for Baltimore and
cuisine.
but I was born and raised inBaltimore.
Still live here.
Own my home here, actually twoblocks in my high school is
where I live.
so true Baltimore boy, and thatkind of where my journey
started.
My maternal grandmother had adaycare in our house when I was
(02:45):
around about four through sevenyears old.
And I got my start working withchildren at that age.
Dr (02:54):
It just threw you right in the fire back in those days,
right?
Leroy Smith (02:57):
Yeah.
Um, back in the nineties, youknow, it's just like, just throw
you into wolves.
I guess it's still, millennialsare still used to that throw,
throw them into wolves, kind of,guess, lifestyle at some point.
Dr (03:09):
Yes.
Well, I'm a Gen Xer, so I'mdefinitely, well.
Leroy Smith (03:11):
Yeah.
Gen Xers, you know, I, maybeit's Gen Z, I don't know, but
depending on what they're goingthrough
Dr (03:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (03:18):
family.
But yeah, I was just kind ofthrown in there and, um, since I
was one of the oldest kids in,well, I was the oldest of my
siblings and, of all mybrothers, and then I had, I was
the oldest of some of my cousinswho were also being babysat by
my grandmother.
And some of the, um, kids in theneighborhood.
so at that point I was alreadyreading a little bit,'cause I
(03:41):
went to Head Start and my greatuncle, um, my maternal
grandmother's brother, he wasalready reading to me a little
bit and I already picked uppretty quickly on some things.
So I would read the kids'stories of books that I've
already read a bunch of times atthe time.
I would help out with, you know,getting them their bottles and
changing their diapers and.
Getting them ready for theirparents to pick them up.
(04:02):
So I got immersed with childrenin a very early age.
Um, I just turned 35 last week,so, so now I'm saying I'm going,
what, 31 years of working withchildren, both
Dr (04:13):
formally and I love it.
Leroy Smith (04:14):
Informally.
I don't even wanna use the wordsformally and informally, but,
both kind of unintentionally andintentionally I would say that.
so.
That's kind of where it started.
And then as I grew up and wentto Baltimore City Public
Schools, I started to notice thedifference between how my
(04:35):
brothers who were younger thanme were being treated.
they had different diagnoses ofspeech, um, delays and some also
some diagnoses of A DHD andlearning disabilities that were
at play.
And in addition to all that,growing up in a rough part of
Baltimore during the nineties,during the height of the heroin.
Dr (04:56):
Oh.
Leroy Smith (04:56):
that kind of
Dr (04:57):
Mm-hmm.
Leroy Smith (04:58):
Um, and you know, if you've ever seen the, the
first three seasons of The Wire,I lived in pretty much all those
neighborhoods.
so there were no props.
Our neighborhood was thebackdrop.
so that's where I grew
Dr (05:14):
Hmm.
Leroy Smith (05:15):
There was violence and drugs, all kinds of stuff
that were, that were pervasivein the neighborhood.
And in the early age, I kind ofknew that things weren't.
Right.
I couldn't put my finger on it,but I knew things weren't fair
for people.
So much so that when I was in,um, kindergarten, I'm pretty
sure you remember it was like athing that everyone did back in
(05:35):
at that time for Gen Xs and 90in, in the nineties, babies and
millennials, it was, uh, what doyou wanna be when you grow
Dr (05:42):
Oh yes.
Leroy Smith (05:42):
in kindergarten.
You know, most people in theclass are just like, I wanna be
a doctor or a baker, or, youknow, lawyer or something like
that, or a wrestler for some ofthe boys in my class.
But I, was the only one that wasjust like, I wanna be the mayor
of Baltimore City.
And my kindergarten teacher waslike, why?
I said because, and I remember,and I, and I remember it kind of
(06:07):
vaguely a little bit, but Iremember because, I saw my
kindergarten teacher maybe a fewyears after that, by the time I
was in fifth grade and gettingready to go to middle school.
And she told me the story andshe said, I asked you why.
And, and I pretty much was justlike, well, I'm tired of seeing
homeless people on my way toschool and I'm tired of people,
my family going through whatthey're going through.
It's not fair.
(06:27):
and she was just like, are youcertain that you wanna do this?
And I was just like, I don'tknow.
And so that was me inkindergarten.
And then my third grade teacher,Ms.
Golfagain she really kind of litthe flame of like being in the
classroom and being ineducation.
She said, if you wanna giveback, the greatest thing you can
do in your community is toinspire the young minds of your
(06:49):
community members and even theminds of people who are.
Or older to think morecritically about who they are,
um, where they are and what theywanna do with their, their
lives.
and so that's kind of how mystart happened, kind of
Dr (07:02):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (07:03):
third grade.
And then, there were a series ofevents that led to me going to
college and other things thatled me into education.
Because I just noticed that itwas just so many things that
were unfair.
And I wanted to do somethingabout it in a way that was
meaningful to me.
Dr (07:20):
Oh my gosh.
I Kudos to your teacher, right?
Like I keep thinking likeinspire, serve, like some of the
greatest things you can do foryour community, for you know,
your country, for your state,for what, for people
Leroy Smith (07:37):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (07:38):
to use your voice.
And I love that.
Sometimes we think that youngchildren don't have the capacity
or ability.
Leroy Smith (07:48):
Mm-hmm.
to see
Dr (07:49):
injustice, but I actually think there's so much better at
seeing it and naming it
Leroy Smith (07:53):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (07:54):
than we are as adults.
Like it's almost like we trainit out of them to see and notice
it.
And you know, everyone knows thestory of the kids, right?
Being like, well, that's notfair.
Leroy Smith (08:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (08:05):
And the adults are like, well, what is fair is not always
equal,
Leroy Smith (08:08):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (08:09):
which is true.
Leroy Smith (08:10):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (08:11):
And
Leroy Smith (08:13):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (08:13):
are, do you, does that actually get applied in systems
and structures?
Right.
Because if a group has beenhistorically marginalized and
what is fair is not alwaysequal, means they may need extra
support to help get them to thespace where they're on equal
footing.
Leroy Smith (08:30):
Yeah.
Dr (08:31):
And that may be a different way to think about that phrase
for some people.
'cause I don't think they thinkabout it that way.
Leroy Smith (08:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I've taught math foryears and.
It.
I mean, one of the greatestlessons that you can teach
students is about negative andpositive integers.
Is when you're already in debt,you need even more to get into
the positive.
So there's a lot more effort.
And we talk about magnitude onthe number line
Dr (08:56):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (08:56):
like we talk to kids about, like, when you hear
magnitude, most people think ofearthquakes.
Dr (09:01):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (09:01):
The larger the magnitude, the more the impact
is the same thing.
When you're in a ne, when you'rein a negative side of things,
further you are away from.
Equal opportunity or just anygreat opportunity, the more that
you need, the higher themagnitude you need to get
propelled forward.
Um, because you're so muchfurther behind, not because of
(09:23):
anything that you did, it's justbecause of circumstances and the
systems that are in place.
Dr (09:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that way of thinkingabout it too, because that.
For people in how sometimespeople get emotional talking
around some of these processesor systems or what are really
fact, right?
Leroy Smith (09:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (09:44):
It's a way to think about it outside in a way that's a little
bit more tangible, I think iswhat I'm trying to say.
Leroy Smith (09:51):
Yeah.
Dr (09:51):
you know, like it doesn't feel like a personal attack.
It just is like, Hey, justreally think about this.
If this happens.
Leroy Smith (09:59):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (10:00):
Um, this is the result of that.
And then how do we mediate that?
Leroy Smith (10:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (10:05):
So it sounds like you had a calling, I'm gonna call it that,
and a passion from a very youngage.
Leroy Smith (10:15):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (10:16):
So do you feel like your trajectory.
Because of that went kind oflinear or did you take the windy
path?
More like me, like where it'sthere, but like there's a trend
line.
Speaking of math, right?
Look at me.
There's a trend line, but it
Leroy Smith (10:35):
I think, um, think all of our lives are kind of
similar to that.
Like there's no straight
Dr (10:44):
mm-hmm.
Leroy Smith (10:45):
I think it's part of human experience, to ground
us and to, you know, humble usand to help us have more
compassion for others.
I think it is a, anyone who hasa straight line forward tends to
be a my.
Perception, maybe, their wholelives have been planned out for
them by someone else.
Dr (11:06):
Oh.
Leroy Smith (11:06):
Um, and they have no agency.
So, and those are often peoplewho are privileged'cause I've
met some of those people.
When I went to college, I wentto pwi, and some of these people
had everything done for them.
Their whole life was set out forthem.
I mean, they, they could havenot really went to, they could
(11:26):
have went to any school theywanted to go to.
I.
They still would've made morethan most of us do because of
their connections and theirprivilege.
so their life was always in astraight line going up.
I think that's why they have ahard time sometimes, some, not,
not all of them, but I think agood portion of people who are
space have a hard time kind ofrelating to others because they
(11:47):
don't experience the same downsthat are natural and are
experienced as human beings.
So to answer that question, I'vekind of went a little up and
down throughout my life.
Um.
I started, actually at first Iwas gonna be a, I went from
wanting to become the mayor ofBaltimore City
Dr (12:04):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (12:04):
when I was a little kid to wanting to become a
lawyer for the naacp.
Um, then changing from that towanting to be a historian of
Africana studies and things likethat, then to changing, to being
a music.
Like musical performer.
As a vocalist, I thought I wasgonna travel the world and sing
(12:24):
jazz and gospel and r and b andpop and opera and all that good
stuff.
Um, then from that, as I wentinto college, I was a music ed
major, so I thought I was gonnateach music.
but the major was particularlychallenging for me because there
was so many changes in theprogram.
and, um, it was very challengingfor me at the time as well
because I was.
(12:45):
In that time, a conservatory, Iwas the only black male vocalist
that was in the entireconservatory, so I felt
Dr (12:51):
Oh wow.
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (12:53):
there was some racial incidents on campus as
well.
So that mixed with the trauma Iwas still experiencing with my
family and things that they weregoing through, there were a lot
of ups and downs.
Then I just shifted to be justmusic major, not knowing what I
wanted to do with it.
Um, did a internship, the AmerWell internship work study
program through America Reads.
(13:15):
I think it's through AmeriCorpsor not, I'm not really sure if
it's still through it, but didthat at a school and loved it
and, taught multilingualstudents how to, access English,
um, as readers and writers andspeakers.
And, then from there went intoalternative teaching program and
then kind of, I.
Stuck with that for some time ineducation.
And then the, the curriculumpiece came, the advocacy piece
(13:38):
came, the consultant piece came.
So I think things kinda happenin their natural order with the,
the ups and downs.
But I, I would say my future is,um, still open.
I think I'm trying to leavemyself open to the future
because I think.
Where I am in my healing journeyis that I, I can't predict the
full future and I'm trying toleave a little bit of space
(14:00):
because if I don't create spacein the future, I'm kind of
locking myself out and otherpeople out that I can serve.
and so I'm trying to be more inthat mindset as I, you know, be
intentionally move forward.
Dr (14:17):
That is really powerful, right?
Um, and I say that because.
You, you sound, I'm gonna callyou a high achiever, right?
Because, and I'm gonna, I'mgonna say that because to me, a
high achiever is someone whocontinues to move forward
(14:38):
through all of life's happening,right?
Leroy Smith (14:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (14:42):
to.
Um, change as change isnecessary and being open to the
new possibilities.
Leroy Smith (14:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (14:52):
Um, I think people like to think of high achievers as just
like, oh, you got the grades.
I think there are so many waysto be a high achiever and
there's, I don't, I don't wantit to be that limiting.
Leroy Smith (15:00):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (15:01):
Um,'cause how powerful, to be a person to say, okay, I am
here.
And you know, I'm feeling verystrong in what I'm doing and I
know there's something that maybe out there that I don't even
know, that I don't know yetthat's gonna come my way.
So like opening your heart andyour spirit
Leroy Smith (15:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (15:26):
that possibility.
And I just think that's reallypowerful.
I think that's a reallyimportant part of connecting
with people doing social justicework.
Um, I personally have that, sortof mantra, right?
Like, I've done 50 million, 11different things in the
trajectory of my career.
(15:48):
All really grounded in mypurpose, which is right about
people and equity and justiceand all of these things just
looking very different.
But that open mindset had me dothings that if you would've
asked me
Leroy Smith (16:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (16:05):
was, you know, the 18-year-old going to college,
oh, you're gonna, whatever, oneday I would be like, huh.
First of all, I, we couldn'thave even, I wouldn't have even
been able to imagine we couldsee each other and we're not
even in the same state, youknow, like, that didn't exist
when I was 18.
I, this makes me sound reallyold.
I swear I'm not.
But those kinds of things.
(16:25):
So I think that's also a greatmindset when.
Engaging with people that mayhave a different perspective or
viewpoint than you, like movingpast the bias, the assumption,
Leroy Smith (16:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (16:42):
um, and like you're preordained, like this is where
this is going to end
Leroy Smith (16:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (16:47):
conversation can help us better learn and understand from
each other.
I don't know.
Do you, what do you think aboutthat?
Leroy Smith (16:54):
I think that's true.
That's also part of my healingjourney.
actually looking at some of my,um, I look at my reflection
journals here or there just tosee like I.
Where I was not that long agowhere I am.
And one of the things I noticedis that although I experienced
quite a bit of trauma justbecause of the circumstances of
where I grew up, and the systemsthat influenced that or caused
(17:15):
that or had some hand in that, Iactually had quite a bit of,
like, I was both a caretaker attoo young of an age to not enjoy
the, the, the, the beauty ofchildhood.
the same time, I was also.
of the family structure, therewas a lot of looseness, loose
structure for me to create myown, um, way.
(17:38):
So I think, as I've gottenolder, I realized that it's just
kind of been a part of mynurture, kind of inadvertently
by my family and also part of mynature to just kind of find my
own way.
And I've done that, I've learnedthat I have to create space for
other people as they're findingtheir own way.
So I think.
That's why, you know, typicallywhen I speak to people, um, I, I
(17:59):
say I can sit down with evensomeone who does, who doesn't
like me or hate me because I'mopen to hear where their heart
is and where their, and where itwas.
Because I think it's, I thinksometimes the greatest, thing
that diminishes our humanity isjust not understanding.
Like I said, that up and downsthe natural parts of life.
(18:20):
I don't know what down someonewent through that created
whatever they feel or whateverthey believe.
Um, I don't know what up theyexperienced that may have
created that either.
I just know how I show up in theworld and I try my best to
understand other people, so Ithink having that openness
allows us to actually be incommunity and, and grow.
(18:41):
like I'm, I'm trying to think oflike all the gardeners out there
as gardening season.
you don't like, make enoughspace in your soil for all the
things you're growing, thingswill start growing up on top of
each other and competing forspace and they'll be in
conflict.
So there, I think even Gartersknow kind of, um.
Almost like through, how do yousay, muscle memory, that you
(19:04):
can't crowd everything.
There has to be a level ofopenness just for things to
grow.
So I think that's the space I'min now, and I'm trying to
continue that path.
Dr (19:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The plan.
Plants need a space to breathe
Leroy Smith (19:16):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (19:16):
airflow, right, to be their most productive.
Leroy Smith (19:19):
Yep.
Dr (19:19):
And I think that's a great analogy, right?
Because we as humans also,right, need space and air to
breathe and room
Leroy Smith (19:26):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (19:27):
to to grow.
I love that.
So, okay, so you did a bunch ofdifferent things.
You said you moved intoconsulting and so now you have
founded, Realized CurriculumSolutions.
You've worked with a ton ofstudents, so I tell everyone a
little bit more about that.
What does it you do, who do youwork with?
Leroy Smith (19:48):
Sure.
So, relaxed curriculumsolutions.
We started.
I would say unofficially,unofficially actually my first
year teaching, by myself,without me even knowing that
that was gonna turn intoanything really.
I would say that's back in the20 12, 20 13 school year, around
(20:08):
that time.
Um, more so 20 13, 20 14, goingaround that time, after my
residency, with.
what is it?
City Teaching Alliance.
They used to be called urbanteachers back in the day.
Dr (20:20):
Okay.
Leroy Smith (20:21):
Um, so I used to tutor some of my students on the
weekends at the libraries orsometimes tutor them during the
summer.
And at the time I was really,didn't know what to call my
company, so I was just like.
Mr.
Smith tutoring.
You know, I was just, I didn't,I was like, meet me at the
library on a Saturday between 11and one.
(20:42):
and I worked with a lot of myfamilies at the time and so it
kind of started unofficiallythere.
'cause I, once again, as ateacher in the classroom, I
realized that so many of ourstudents needed more,
Dr (20:50):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (20:51):
from a variety of different backgrounds.
And then, um, years kind of wentby.
I kind of un, you know, here orthere.
Tutor dabbled here, tutoringthere.
started off with tutoring,honestly.
And then I kind of took a breakfrom it for maybe about three
years, three or four years.
and then the, the pandemic hits,and we're stuck at home.
(21:15):
And, people kept calling me,like former families, former
students that were not in highschool getting ready for
college, who had IEPs.
Former colleagues, formersupervisors of like, how do we
support students with IEPs?
How do we support culturally andlinguistically diverse students
who are struggling during,during Global Pandemic?
(21:37):
And I was like, why does peoplecalling me?
Dr (21:41):
Because you knew something.
You knew something.
Leroy Smith (21:44):
yeah, I mean, I, that was at a different point
where I feel like my self-esteemwas really, really strange.
Like, I felt like I knew I wasgood at getting good results for
students, but I didn't thinkthat anyone else noticed other
than me.
And so I was just like, oh,people are calling me.
I was like, this is okay.
This is a lot.
And so one of the.
One of my former, parents of astudent I had at a previous
(22:06):
school had asked me, well, Mrs.
Smith, how do I pay you forhelping me with this?
And I was like, I mean, youcould just pay me.
She's like, do you have acompany?
And I was like, And she waslike, well, you should start a
business.
And I was like, And she's justlike.
So I told you this is, this is,the, the, the natural ebb and
(22:27):
flows of life.
I was like, why?
I was like, and she said, well,it's because you're really good
at what you do and I think a lotof people need what you provide.
And I was like, okay.
I thought back to an example.
We did like a in, in one, my,the, the school year before,
well, two years school, yearsbefore, before the pandemic.
We did this example with ourfirst graders, a mini unit on
(22:48):
entrepreneurship, and they werecoming up with business ideas
and business names.
And one of my students, Ari atthe time.
First grader, he said to me, Mr.
Smith, you know what I realized?
You are very good at workingwith kids that look just like
me, little black boy with theIEP.
Um, and I remember that touchedmy heart because it's one of the
quotes and one of the students Iremember, like it was yesterday,
(23:11):
even though it was a few yearsago.
And, um, once the pandemic hitwhen he said, I realized that
you.
Work well with kids that looklike me.
I just took that name realizedfrom that statement.
So, you know, I'm really,expressed gratitude to him.
I don't know where he is now.
Um, I'm sure he's in high schoolnow and, probably 10th grade it
was like, ninth or 10th
Dr (23:32):
That's the worst part, right?
You're like, oh, that student isnow 30 oh oh.
Leroy Smith (23:37):
know.
I know.
So, um, so yes, I named mycompany Realized Solutions and
it was also, uh, an awakeningfor me of like realizing my own
worth as a human being beyonddoing the work, but actually
just caring about others andjust showing up for people the
best way I know how to.
(23:58):
and so then it kind oftransitioned into advocacy work.
A lot of people then startedflooding, like.
How do we get help for our kids?
They need an IEP, they needevaluations, they need this.
and then shortly after that itwas like, it was kind of kinda
like that, like you said,bouncing around thing.
tutoring came back into space'cause a lot of the people who I
was advocating for also wantedme to tutor their kid as well
(24:21):
because they wanted to make surethat they can catch up in their
IEP goals and their
Dr (24:25):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (24:25):
school.
And then as time went on.
People who were formercolleagues and supervisors were
just like, Hey, we've known thatyou've done a lot of curriculum
work over the summers for aschool district.
we need you to help us with PDand curriculum.
So then I got into PD andcurriculum, workshops.
And so that's kind of where weare now actually is more so in
(24:47):
the PD workshop space foreducators, education leaders
and, and, families.
so we partner with educationalorganizations, to help them.
Both develop and adapt andimplement curriculum resources
for, neurodivergent students ofcolors as to color.
And so that's what we do now anduh, it's been great.
(25:09):
I mean, I have to revise mywebsite because the 10,000
students was in the past and Imade the website,
Dr (25:14):
Okay.
Leroy Smith (25:15):
one of my clients.
Um, the Center Pacific Educationthrough some of the work I did
with them on their, we thePeople Project with teachers a
few years ago back in LA um, thecurriculum that they have
implemented has touched over 1million students in the
Dr (25:28):
Oh, that's so cool.
Leroy Smith (25:30):
so when they told me that recently, I was kind of
floored.
I never thought, I mean, I, Ididn't even think I was gonna be
a, an entrepreneur.
Never thought that, didn't thinkI was gonna be a homeowner,
Dr (25:40):
Look, you thought you were gonna be the mayor of Baltimore
City, so.
Leroy Smith (25:43):
Well, I don't know if I want that at all.
'cause that's just too much.
It's too much work.
Too much work.
I feel like my calling isworking with people who are in
education and working withpeople who care for children.
Dr (25:54):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (25:55):
but, uh, yeah, I stumbled into, well my
girlfriend says is different.
You didn't stumble into things.
The world just kind.
you in that way?
Because I didn't think I wasgonna go to college.
Uh, Dr.
Tami, I mean, I grew up in arough neighborhood where gun
violence was an issue.
Dr (26:10):
Mm-hmm.
Leroy Smith (26:11):
think I was gonna live.
It was a personable amount oftime just to live past 18
Dr (26:15):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (26:16):
to too many funerals for too many people in
my family.
Seen too many people go to jail,and I just thought, I didn't
wanna go to jail.
I didn't want to, you know, dieyoung.
That was, that was real for meat the
Dr (26:26):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (26:27):
So I didn't think I was gonna go to college until
teachers pushed me.
I didn't think I was gonnabecome a homeowner until people
pushed me.
I didn't think I was gonna be anentrepreneur until people pushed
me.
So I'm learning that, I have tokind of lean into the fact that
there are people who see thingsin me that I don't see for
myself.
Dr (26:43):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (26:44):
and I'm trying to do what's right by myself, but
also right by them becausethey've invested time, energy,
and money to ensure that.
my company supports as manychildren throughout this country
as we possibly can so that theycan see themselves reflected in
their curriculum, that they canfeel like they have the skills
necessary to do something abouttheir, um, their now.
(27:06):
Not their future, but their now,because their now is, living
through stuff now, you know?
And so,
Dr (27:13):
the time.
Every day.
Yes.
Yes.
Like it's that phrase like, um,tomorrow, can't wait.
But I, I think there's like areally powerful statement in
what you said, right?
People can see things in youthat you couldn't see in
yourself.
And I think just as an educator,um, and as a human, I think it's
(27:34):
important that we share thosethings with people because
you're like, wait, what?
Leroy Smith (27:41):
Yep.
Dr (27:42):
um.
It's so funny, I told you we'rekindred spirits.
First of all, I love that yourname of your company has a
story.
Leroy Smith (27:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (27:52):
my company name also has a story'cause you, nothing about
this name says equity work.
Um, but you know, I think thestory is.
I believe in the power of story,just first of all, um, which is
why I do this podcast.
I love the podcast because Ithink people relate to other
humans.
We've historically alwaysrelated to each other via story
Leroy Smith (28:14):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (28:15):
an experience and seeing and hearing other people do that,
and you're like, oh, maybe,maybe I could do that
Leroy Smith (28:22):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (28:23):
too.
You know, I too had otherpeople, like I've done all kinds
of things and they're like, youshould just, just, just do it.
Just start.
Just start your own company.
Right?
And I love that you hadconfirmation along
Leroy Smith (28:35):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (28:36):
way, right?
In ways that you weren'texpecting.
You're like, wait, what?
Okay, like, and then thishappens and it's those, I don't
know.
For me, those little nuggets arewhat keep you going in, figuring
out where the next door opens orthe next relationship, um, or
(28:57):
connection you're going.
To make.
Leroy Smith (29:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (29:03):
I love that about this work.
You know, I love that aboutpeople, right?
Because there's a lot of crazyin the world, and I think social
media and our current cycle hasmade it seem, uh, how do I wanna
say this?
Like, everything is bad.
Leroy Smith (29:20):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (29:22):
I actually still believe in my heart that there are more
people that want.
Good and are trying to do thingsright by other people
Leroy Smith (29:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (29:32):
want to care and support for people.
And I hope my goal is like, howdo you use your voice?
I want everyone to find a way touse their voice in a way that's
unique for them, that helpssupport this collective
humanity.
We have.
Leroy Smith (29:48):
That's part of the work that we do is when we're
designing lessons or unit plansor assessments or rubrics, we're
thinking about learningopportunities for children who
typically.
Have been cast aside by societyor given up on, I mean, you
know, students who have, youknow, who are neurodivergent or
who have disabilities, who arealso students of color.
Dr (30:11):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (30:12):
This is like the combination of like the most
forgotten in our society whenyou look at unemployment rates.
It's not just, people of colorwho are historically more
marginalized in unemployment.
It's people of color who have adisability status.
Are like really feeling it rightnow and have been feeling it for
such a long time.
(30:33):
and so we try to createopportunities where people see
that we have been resisting fromday one.
It is a part of human nature toresist negativity that comes
your way.
and that that's the beauty ofour experience.
I think.
I was just listening to apodcast maybe about an hour
before I got on with you um, allof the untold undocumented.
(30:56):
Um, rebellions that happen forenslaved Africans here in the US
that are not mentioned in almostany history book, unless you go
to the collegiate level to looka little deeper.
Dr (31:07):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (31:08):
and there's a reason for that.
It's the same thing for socialmedia, that the algorithms are
planned in a way that we kind offeel disempowered, that we feel
like things are worse than.
they actually are.
Um, I'm in the firm belief thatthings have historically because
we're humans and we're notperfect things, have always had
(31:29):
a level of crazy and always hada level of hope At the same
time, I think we're just thenext, we're just the current
generation of human beings thatare experiencing part of.
What is deeply human, the good
Dr (31:42):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (31:42):
and the ugly.
and I think it's our turn thistime to experience.
What does it mean to resistagainst the ugly and the bad in
the world, whatever that mightbe.
Dr (31:54):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (31:55):
and how do we cultivate, you know, my
girlfriend said, she's like, I,I don't have the energy to fight
all the bad, but I do haveenergy to cultivate the good I'm
gonna cultivate the good sothat.
Our next generation that comesup behind us when they go
through the human experience ofthe good, the bad, and ugly.
know what good feels like.
They know what it, um, lookslike and sounds like, and
(32:18):
they're willing to do it becauseit's been done for them.
and so that's kind of the spaceI'm also in too.
It's just like, as much as Ican, I wanna cultivate the good
so people can realize that thereis a level of strength and, and
power that we do have in ournoun.
Dr (32:33):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (32:34):
a fifth grade student who is reading two years
below grade level in DC orBaltimore, wherever in the
country, you still have just asmuch power as the person who
goes to the private school.
You know, with all the money andall the fame and all the glory,
you have power.
But we have to find ways to getyou to tap into it
Dr (32:54):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (32:54):
power is whatever their power is.
It might make you feel small,but you're never small.
You're always bigger than whatyou think you are.
And that's something my teachersinstilled in me at a young age
and also family members, is justthat the world is as big as we
believe it is, and we are as bigas we believe we are.
And if we see ourselves assmall, we're gonna see everyone
(33:15):
around us as small mindedpeople.
I remember my fifth gradeteacher said that if you see
yourself as small, you're gonnaproject that upon other people
and they're gonna see themselvesas small.
And then now you have a smallminded conversation.
But if you see that other personas big and full.
You see yourself as big as full.
You can have a big and fullconversation and engage in a way
that's more nuanced.
(33:37):
Um, so that's what we do.
We want people to have the toughconversations.
We want people, the children tosay, guess what?
My community may not be all thethings I want it to be, but I
have, I have a, a role in thisto do
Dr (33:50):
Mm.
Leroy Smith (33:51):
about it for myself and for others.
And I can start today.
I don't have to wait until I'man adult.
I don't have to
Dr (33:57):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (33:58):
The legal age to vote.
I can start now in my own smallways of, of being in service to
myself and others.
Dr (34:06):
Yeah.
Whew.
Okay.
Amen.
Amen.
Um, okay.
I wanna ask this because Ibelieve in all of those.
I, I believe that, and I thinkthere are a lot of people that
believe that.
Leroy Smith (34:23):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:25):
So I have two questions really.
Leroy Smith (34:26):
Sure.
Dr (34:27):
One kind of thinking around the, the current climate and the
pushback
Leroy Smith (34:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:34):
around servicing,
Leroy Smith (34:37):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:38):
students with disabilities around,
Leroy Smith (34:40):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:41):
you know, that culturally responsive,
Leroy Smith (34:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:45):
education needs to go away.
You know, this idea that we haveto scrub
Leroy Smith (34:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:52):
words, um.
One.
I'm just curious how and ifthat's affected what you and
your organization do at all.
And then two, what's your kindof best suggestion for people
looking to make that difference
Leroy Smith (35:09):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (35:09):
this climate?
I.
Leroy Smith (35:10):
Mm-hmm.
Um, right now it has, it issomewhat affected my work, both
in.
I would say a unique way.
I think it's made me thinkdifferently about how people
approach this topic.
I think when people hear wordslike equity or whatever else,
other words they might hear in,in the litany of, I say the
(35:32):
lexicon of doing right bypeople.
Dr (35:34):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (35:35):
Um, I think people hear those things and it.
Means different things todifferent people or from
different experiences.
So it's made me become morestrategic about how I speak
about the work and what I do.
Think people, you know, there isa fear that persist at the
societal level, that when you doright by all people, the society
(36:00):
then crumbles, or that thesociety can't sustain itself
because.
Now the truths are out there.
And now the truths are not in indeep opposition with what we
have been raised or what we havebeen taught to believe.
and I think because of thenatural instinct of human beings
to hold on whatever they holddear to their hearts, I.
(36:24):
Is the reason why the resistanceis so strong to the troops that
are of all people here.
so I think that's where some ofthat is.
And I think also because somepeople just don't experience
those things.
If you've lived a life whereyou've never experienced these
kind of struggles, uh, you'reprobably not gonna care as much.
(36:44):
Not because, and it doesn't meanthat you're heartless, it
Dr (36:47):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (36:47):
that.
This is a foreign concept toyou.
and so I think for me, I'mapproaching the work
understanding that not everyonewho has privilege or who does
not have privilege in, indifferent ways is coming into
these, this current time thatwe're in.
Seeing it, coming in with a, youknow, mal intent.
Some people coming in with ajust out, out of sheer, like, I
(37:08):
don't know what this is.
Dr (37:10):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (37:10):
this.
I can't, I, I'm, I don't, I'mnot concerned about that, about.
who have disabilities notgetting their services met
because my kids don't have them.
I'm not concerned about, youknow, the various truths about
people's experiences beingtaught in school, because in my
neighborhood there are no otherkids that look like my kids.
(37:31):
so why, why should I beconcerned about that?
So I, I think that's a part ofit.
So I have to strategicallyunderstand that, because of how
we are.
Especially in this countrybecause of how we are still
segregated, um, throughout thecountry and how so many people
live so far away from eachother.
I didn't realize how big the USwas, but also how small at the
(37:52):
same time is big enough thatpeople like live in the same
state or.
Live a few towns over and notexperience any cultural
diversity,
Dr (38:01):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (38:02):
which is shocking to me.
Um, but it's also small enoughthat we can experience a whole
bunch of things at one time.
so I think that's one and two, Ithink I, what we can do about it
is remind ourselves we are justthe, the, the latest iteration
of our species that are goingthrough what, what we've always
(38:24):
gone through.
I think that makes me feelempowered because me not think
that this is a unique challenge.
This is a challenge that is.
Deeply embedded within ourexperience as human beings and
our species is in our DNA, thatsome of us will, will do some
very lewd and crazy things, andothers of us will try to say,
(38:45):
let's not do that, and let'sfind some way to not make that
happen.
Dr (38:49):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (38:50):
I mean, I don't wanna put it out there like this
is all genealogy, but I, I thinkit's, in our experience that
that happens, I think ourselfthat we.
Have a blueprint for people who
Dr (39:03):
Hmm.
Leroy Smith (39:03):
along in the past and who are currently creating
a, a new blueprint right now.
for how to resist, I think.
I think culturally as, andmusically, I think about one of
my favorite genres to sing ourspirituals.
Dr (39:17):
Hmm.
Leroy Smith (39:18):
and it's the music of people who were pressed on
plantations, who were sold onthe auction block.
People who in the north werebeing hunted down by the KKK in
New Hampshire and New York.
Even though they say that theKKK was only in the South,
Dr (39:31):
Right.
Leroy Smith (39:32):
it's the people who, you know, left their
families in the south.
Seeking for a better life, goingup north, not knowing what was
gonna happen when they wentnorth or not knowing what was
gonna happen when they movedwest and singing these
spirituals that eventuallybecame blues and r and b and
gospel and jazz and similarstyles.
We enjoy country music and allkinds of things today.
(39:52):
it reminds me of that, is thatour ancestors sang even when
they were picking cotton like I,that, or, or indigo in our area,
um, in Maryland, like theyweren't going to let.
Someone else who said they hadownership over their bodies, get
the last word,
Dr (40:11):
Mm.
Leroy Smith (40:11):
last word, even if they were still going through
the, trauma that theyexperienced.
It was even so that some ofthese plantation, um, owners
started to realize that thatwasn't act of resistance.
The dance, the ring shouts thesinging, they started to have
these things called silentplantations.
(40:32):
Where they didn't want you totalk at all.
But then we found ways to becreative with our hairstyles
Dr (40:38):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (40:38):
with our hairstyles, and we found ways to
be creative in the patches wewore in our clothes, and the
foods that we ate or when we hadtime to downtime or whatever it
may have been.
Um, so it just reminds me ofthat is that we are just going
through yet another iteration.
I mean, it's not the exact samething that
Dr (40:57):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (40:57):
generations went through, but.
is the, it is the humanexperience that we're gonna come
to grips with the evils and thegoods of the world and
everything that's in between.
Um, and I think reminding myselfthat there's always something we
can do, even if it's just youhaving the thought.
I don't like what's going on.
Like, starting there issomething you can do.
(41:18):
Um, when I work and I coach someteachers,
Dr (41:21):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (41:22):
this day and time, letting your kids know that
their disabilities do not definethem.
Is a part of the resistance,letting them know that there
have been people who, you know,I, my favorite example is
Harriet Tubman, a woman whosuffered from epilepsy.
Could you imagine
Dr (41:37):
Right.
Leroy Smith (41:37):
the first woman to lead a, a, a regiment in the
army in the United States tofree hundreds of slaves on one
day and one day, let alone allthe other hundreds.
She freed just by herself.
Dr (41:50):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (41:51):
I think about a woman who went through seizures
who said, you know what?
She was willing to go throughthat just to free her people.
So I put it in the, in the handsof everyone else, like I'm
putting it in my own hands, isthat the smallest and or biggest
things that we can do is tellourselves that I.
We know that there are thingsthat are wrong.
We're gonna do something aboutit.
We're gonna tell our childrenthat there's always something
(42:13):
you can do about it, even ifit's just us going down to city
hall and asking questions orgoing to the school board
meeting and asking questions,even if it's us asking our
energy supplier.
Why are you overcharging me?
Are you overcharging myneighbors, talking to your
neighbors?
Like, are you being overcharged?
Are you being overcharged?
Where is this coming from?
So, you know, or gettingtogether and having a community
(42:35):
garden so we can feed ourselvesso we don't have to worry about
the food prices.
Dr (42:39):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (42:40):
little small things go a long way.
Giving donating clothes,donating diapers, donating
whatever you have that you don'tneed in ex, because we have a
lot of access in this
Dr (42:50):
Oh, absolutely we do.
Leroy Smith (42:51):
know, whatever we can do to help, whether it's,
you have, you just had a bunchof kittens, you had a lit of
kittens, and you know, yourneighbor next door is an elderly
person who needs company.
You're giving the kitten to thatperson because you want that
person to have a therapy animalor have something to care for.
So I think those are the smallways we can do things that make
a huge difference.
Um, I, I, I think the enemywants us to.
(43:14):
Be disempowered and, anddisenfranchised and, and I'm not
one to allow it to happenbecause the life that I've
lived, I've seen down a barrelof a gun a few times.
And the one thing that you know,my father instilled in me is
when these things happen, yourenemy wants you to run away and
hide.
Dr (43:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Leroy Smith (43:33):
for us to run away and hide.
This is time for us to say, youknow what?
Stuff is hitting the fan.
It is time for us to figure outwhat are the, the I can do to
help myself and to help others,um, in the most genuine ways
possible.
And I think that's how weresist, and I think that's the
thing that's gonna get usthrough this iteration of what
(43:54):
we're all going through as humanbeings.
Dr (43:56):
Yes.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I totally agree with you.
Like isn't the time to besilent?
They do want us to be feeldisempowered.
And, uh, disenfranchised and Ithink all the things you said
are so important, right?
The resistance always finds away.
So whatever that can look like
Leroy Smith (44:15):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (44:16):
you as an individual,
Leroy Smith (44:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (44:19):
um, to stand up for what is right for people and share that
with other people, that justmakes it better for the
collective.
So, absolutely.
I keep saying that, I'm like,now is not the time to be
silent.
Now is not the time.
Right.
Someone asked me, oh, are yougoing to change the name of your
podcast?
I was like, Nope.
Leroy Smith (44:40):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (44:41):
Nope.
Um, I can be mindful, like thereare lots of ways to talk about
Leroy Smith (44:45):
Yeah.
Dr (44:46):
what it is we do, just like you were saying.
Um, but I'm not gonna change thename,
Leroy Smith (44:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (44:52):
um, because this is what we're talking about,
Leroy Smith (44:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr (44:57):
like I recently had someone say something about wanting to
be on the podcast, but one thatdoesn't wanna use the word
equity.
I'm like, uh, well you probablycan't be on my podcast'cause
that's an actual title.
Like.
Leroy Smith (45:06):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr (45:10):
Bless your heart, but, I think those are such wise words
of wisdom and I, and I don'twanna detract from that, um,
with whatever it is I'm about tosay, but.
No, it was just so powerful foreveryone to hear and to end on.
And I think it's important forpeople to remember and lean on.
(45:32):
So it, and I think if you don'tknow some of those things, learn
about some of these things.
So you can also feel you don't,'cause you don't know what you
don't know, but if you go andlearn, I know you were talking
about like slave revolts.
Um, I don't know if you read Dr.
Rebecca Hall's book Wake.
It's about women involved in theslave revolts.
Leroy Smith (45:50):
No, not yet.
It's a, it is in my, it is inmy, uh, what do you call it?
My cart.
I'm
Dr (45:55):
You're like TBR, like your car.
Okay.
Highly recommend.
Leroy Smith (45:58):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna get it now.
'cause you're like the thirdperson, like in the past like
two months and I've had it, Ihad a, a few books sitting in my
cart.
I'm like, all right, I'm gonnaget
Dr (46:05):
Okay.
Leroy Smith (46:06):
by me.
Dr (46:07):
You definitely need to do that.
I'll have to message you.
I can't remember which episodeit was, but I, I talked with the
educator who uses it with herstudents and like takes their
perspective.
It's so, so cool.
And she has a second book comingout we just heard, but.
Leroy Smith (46:19):
Oh my gosh, that is so cool.
Dr (46:21):
Yes.
It's so cool.
I'll send it to you because someof the stuff that they did was
amazing and I think it wouldalign a lot with
Leroy Smith (46:26):
Yes.
Dr (46:27):
is you do.
Leroy Smith (46:27):
to do that.
Dr (46:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, okay, so I know we're kindof coming to the end of our time
and I know you just gave us likeso many amazing nuggets, but is
there like one piece of advicethat you would want people to
leave with around, you know,wanting to engage with this
work?
What would you say with them?
Leroy Smith (46:46):
I would say engaging.
Engaging the work with equitystarts with you, and starts with
you kind of like learning a lotmore about yourself, um, and
learning a lot more about thepeople that you love.
Learning about the people thatare just in your community.
I think that's the, that's thestarting point.
I think it's very hard to say,do a solution you don't really
(47:11):
know the people that you'redoing that for often.
That's the thing I feel likepeople do.
They propose solutions, but theynever really talk to the people
who the solution is for.
they don't really live among thepeople.
They don't ask some questions.
So I would say start withyourself and, you might learn
along the way.
There's some things that youneed to learn.
You might learn
Dr (47:31):
Mm.
Leroy Smith (47:31):
way that there might be questions that you have
and you, I think often the workof equity, you know, makes you
more courageous.
a lot of people already have alevel of courage with them,
think when you're in the work ofmaking things fair for people,
it gives you a level of, um,courage that you can't get
(47:52):
anywhere else.
It kind of pushes you to seeyourself as not just a singular
individual thing or entity, butthat you are part of a
connective piece of humanhistory.
That history is being made everyday you wake up.
History is being made every daythat you ask a question
Dr (48:12):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (48:12):
that you, um, support.
So I think that's the, the, thepiece I want people to walk with
is start with yourself.
Ask yourself the toughquestions.
I, the one question I ask myselfevery day is, did the way I was
raised impact how I see theworld?
And the answer to that isalways, yes.
Dr (48:31):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (48:31):
I see, I see the world um, you know, my
girlfriend, she's apsychologist, so she actually,
she's, she always makes fun ofme for this.
see the world as kind of like inthe words Apollo, you know,
fair, you know, Apollo farrierand, and pedagogy of presses.
Um, but.
This world has people who arewilling to break the chains of
(48:53):
oppression.
And there are some people whowant the chains of oppression to
be here.
Dr (48:57):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (48:58):
and so I say reflect upon yourself because
believe it or not, we might bein, in his words, we might be in
a false reality where we thinkthat we're actually producing
solutions for people to breaktheir chains.
But if, if anything, exchangingyour change for a different kind
of oppression
Dr (49:13):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (49:14):
knowing, um, because we're not investigating
ourselves and we're not.
Being in community with othersto really know exactly what they
need to, to, to thrive.
so that's why I say that becauseI don't want you to go out and
just think, oh, I'm just gonnaread a bunch of research papers
and it's, I'm gonna have all theanswers.
I'm read all the books, I'mgonna have all the answers.
I'm just gonna go into the andto whatever community and just
(49:36):
do these things.
And then all the people in thatcommunity gonna be grateful for
it.
No, just check yourself
Dr (49:41):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (49:42):
in with others and see.
What it is that they need.
Because like I said, myneighbor's on this block.
I know one of my elderlyneighbors, she likes getting
plants.
That's what she needs to feelgood in her retirement.
But another elderly neighbornext door, she loves all her
little cats that run around andthat's something that she needs.
And they live right next to, toeach other.
Pretty much the same age.
(50:02):
there's older black women inBaltimore in, in a.
Mixed income community, andguess what They approach, what
they need for healing twodifferent ways.
Dr (50:12):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (50:12):
Um, so just checking in with people and
checking in with yourself, Ithink is the easiest thing to
do.
And, and it makes it, it makesthe equity work feel manageable
because I think a lot of peopletap out of the work because they
feel like it's too big that theycan't solve
Dr (50:25):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (50:26):
But when you check in with yourself and you check
in with others, it feels a lotmore manageable.
Dr (50:30):
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
It always starts with awarenessof self because then that
influences how we interact withothers.
So thank you for that nugget andfor all the gems that you
dropped today.
It's been such a pleasure, Lee,to have you on the podcast.
Thank you for joining us.
Leroy Smith (50:48):
It was true.
Pleasure.
Dr (50:50):
All right, everyone.
Thank you for joining us foranother episode of The Equity
Hour.
You can find a link to the bookWake Plus Leroy's website in the
show notes.
Until next time, thanks.
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Equity
Hour with me, your host, Dr.
Tami.
Dean.
I am so excited to have Leroy ASmith in the house with us today
as my guest, uh, Leroy.
Hello.
Leroy Smith (00:22):
How are you?
Dr (00:23):
I'm doing pretty well hanging in there.
Spring is springing, which Ilove, which I love.
Leroy Smith (00:27):
yes.
Love spring.
Dr (00:29):
Yes.
Other than
Leroy Smith (00:30):
the allergies.
Dr (00:31):
Oh, yes, we can, we can, the allergies can go back to where
they are, but, um, so everyone,Leroy is an education leader, a
curriculum specialist, and anadvocate dedicated to empowering
students and the educators whoserve them.
His passion for education wasshaped by his personal
experiences of inequity,inspiring his lifelong
commitment to ensuring allstudents, regardless of
(00:53):
background or ability, have theopportunity.
To succeed.
So exciting and so much linewith myself.
I know we've talked a little bitabout that.
And you know, really exciting.
He does vocal music.
And then in 2020 he founded theRealized Curriculum Solution,
which provides curriculumdesign, professional
(01:13):
development, and specialeducation advocacy services.
So he is worked with a ton ofstudents, over 10,000 of them,
and has partnered with CarnegieLearning.
So welcome to the show.
Leroy Smith (01:25):
Thank you for having me.
Dr (01:27):
I'm
Leroy Smith (01:27):
excited.
Dr (01:28):
Thank you for coming.
I am so excited.
I'm so excited.
I cannot wait to hear and learnmore about all the work that you
do.
One, because selfishly, you, youand I are like kindred spirits
in our journey, which, um,always speaks to me.
But let's talk about thatjourney because that is one of
the things, I always want peopleto hear how people got to this
(01:49):
work and what they've done,because oftentimes, and I think
in the current climateespecially, it can feel like
it's something we shouldn't bedoing, or it's like a task
versus a way of being or actingor moving in the world.
So tell us a little bit about.
Your equity journey, like whatgot you here, uh, and what you
(02:12):
do.
Leroy Smith (02:13):
Sure.
So.
My journey starts.
I'm a Baltimore boy, as I liketo say to people.
one of, I, I like steam crabs,but I prefer crab cakes in crab
soup
Dr (02:24):
Ooh.
Leroy Smith (02:24):
That's my preference for Baltimore and
cuisine.
but I was born and raised inBaltimore.
Still live here.
Own my home here, actually twoblocks in my high school is
where I live.
so true Baltimore boy, and thatkind of where my journey
started.
My maternal grandmother had adaycare in our house when I was
(02:45):
around about four through sevenyears old.
And I got my start working withchildren at that age.
Dr (02:54):
It just threw you right in the fire back in those days,
right?
Leroy Smith (02:57):
Yeah.
Um, back in the nineties, youknow, it's just like, just throw
you into wolves.
I guess it's still, millennialsare still used to that throw,
throw them into wolves, kind of,guess, lifestyle at some point.
Dr (03:09):
Yes.
Well, I'm a Gen Xer, so I'mdefinitely, well.
Leroy Smith (03:11):
Yeah.
Gen Xers, you know, I, maybeit's Gen Z, I don't know, but
depending on what they're goingthrough
Dr (03:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (03:18):
family.
But yeah, I was just kind ofthrown in there and, um, since I
was one of the oldest kids in,well, I was the oldest of my
siblings and, of all mybrothers, and then I had, I was
the oldest of some of my cousinswho were also being babysat by
my grandmother.
And some of the, um, kids in theneighborhood.
so at that point I was alreadyreading a little bit,'cause I
(03:41):
went to Head Start and my greatuncle, um, my maternal
grandmother's brother, he wasalready reading to me a little
bit and I already picked uppretty quickly on some things.
So I would read the kids'stories of books that I've
already read a bunch of times atthe time.
I would help out with, you know,getting them their bottles and
changing their diapers and.
Getting them ready for theirparents to pick them up.
(04:02):
So I got immersed with childrenin a very early age.
Um, I just turned 35 last week,so, so now I'm saying I'm going,
what, 31 years of working withchildren, both
Dr (04:13):
formally and I love it.
Leroy Smith (04:14):
Informally.
I don't even wanna use the wordsformally and informally, but,
both kind of unintentionally andintentionally I would say that.
so.
That's kind of where it started.
And then as I grew up and wentto Baltimore City Public
Schools, I started to notice thedifference between how my
(04:35):
brothers who were younger thanme were being treated.
they had different diagnoses ofspeech, um, delays and some also
some diagnoses of A DHD andlearning disabilities that were
at play.
And in addition to all that,growing up in a rough part of
Baltimore during the nineties,during the height of the heroin.
Dr (04:56):
Oh.
Leroy Smith (04:56):
that kind of
Dr (04:57):
Mm-hmm.
Leroy Smith (04:58):
Um, and you know, if you've ever seen the, the
first three seasons of The Wire,I lived in pretty much all those
neighborhoods.
so there were no props.
Our neighborhood was thebackdrop.
so that's where I grew
Dr (05:14):
Hmm.
Leroy Smith (05:15):
There was violence and drugs, all kinds of stuff
that were, that were pervasivein the neighborhood.
And in the early age, I kind ofknew that things weren't.
Right.
I couldn't put my finger on it,but I knew things weren't fair
for people.
So much so that when I was in,um, kindergarten, I'm pretty
sure you remember it was like athing that everyone did back in
(05:35):
at that time for Gen Xs and 90in, in the nineties, babies and
millennials, it was, uh, what doyou wanna be when you grow
Dr (05:42):
Oh yes.
Leroy Smith (05:42):
in kindergarten.
You know, most people in theclass are just like, I wanna be
a doctor or a baker, or, youknow, lawyer or something like
that, or a wrestler for some ofthe boys in my class.
But I, was the only one that wasjust like, I wanna be the mayor
of Baltimore City.
And my kindergarten teacher waslike, why?
I said because, and I remember,and I, and I remember it kind of
(06:07):
vaguely a little bit, but Iremember because, I saw my
kindergarten teacher maybe a fewyears after that, by the time I
was in fifth grade and gettingready to go to middle school.
And she told me the story andshe said, I asked you why.
And, and I pretty much was justlike, well, I'm tired of seeing
homeless people on my way toschool and I'm tired of people,
my family going through whatthey're going through.
It's not fair.
(06:27):
and she was just like, are youcertain that you wanna do this?
And I was just like, I don'tknow.
And so that was me inkindergarten.
And then my third grade teacher,Ms.
Golfagain she really kind of litthe flame of like being in the
classroom and being ineducation.
She said, if you wanna giveback, the greatest thing you can
do in your community is toinspire the young minds of your
(06:49):
community members and even theminds of people who are.
Or older to think morecritically about who they are,
um, where they are and what theywanna do with their, their
lives.
and so that's kind of how mystart happened, kind of
Dr (07:02):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (07:03):
third grade.
And then, there were a series ofevents that led to me going to
college and other things thatled me into education.
Because I just noticed that itwas just so many things that
were unfair.
And I wanted to do somethingabout it in a way that was
meaningful to me.
Dr (07:20):
Oh my gosh.
I Kudos to your teacher, right?
Like I keep thinking likeinspire, serve, like some of the
greatest things you can do foryour community, for you know,
your country, for your state,for what, for people
Leroy Smith (07:37):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (07:38):
to use your voice.
And I love that.
Sometimes we think that youngchildren don't have the capacity
or ability.
Leroy Smith (07:48):
Mm-hmm.
to see
Dr (07:49):
injustice, but I actually think there's so much better at
seeing it and naming it
Leroy Smith (07:53):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (07:54):
than we are as adults.
Like it's almost like we trainit out of them to see and notice
it.
And you know, everyone knows thestory of the kids, right?
Being like, well, that's notfair.
Leroy Smith (08:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (08:05):
And the adults are like, well, what is fair is not always
equal,
Leroy Smith (08:08):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (08:09):
which is true.
Leroy Smith (08:10):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (08:11):
And
Leroy Smith (08:13):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (08:13):
are, do you, does that actually get applied in systems
and structures?
Right.
Because if a group has beenhistorically marginalized and
what is fair is not alwaysequal, means they may need extra
support to help get them to thespace where they're on equal
footing.
Leroy Smith (08:30):
Yeah.
Dr (08:31):
And that may be a different way to think about that phrase
for some people.
'cause I don't think they thinkabout it that way.
Leroy Smith (08:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I've taught math foryears and.
It.
I mean, one of the greatestlessons that you can teach
students is about negative andpositive integers.
Is when you're already in debt,you need even more to get into
the positive.
So there's a lot more effort.
And we talk about magnitude onthe number line
Dr (08:56):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (08:56):
like we talk to kids about, like, when you hear
magnitude, most people think ofearthquakes.
Dr (09:01):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (09:01):
The larger the magnitude, the more the impact
is the same thing.
When you're in a ne, when you'rein a negative side of things,
further you are away from.
Equal opportunity or just anygreat opportunity, the more that
you need, the higher themagnitude you need to get
propelled forward.
Um, because you're so muchfurther behind, not because of
(09:23):
anything that you did, it's justbecause of circumstances and the
systems that are in place.
Dr (09:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that way of thinkingabout it too, because that.
For people in how sometimespeople get emotional talking
around some of these processesor systems or what are really
fact, right?
Leroy Smith (09:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (09:44):
It's a way to think about it outside in a way that's a little
bit more tangible, I think iswhat I'm trying to say.
Leroy Smith (09:51):
Yeah.
Dr (09:51):
you know, like it doesn't feel like a personal attack.
It just is like, Hey, justreally think about this.
If this happens.
Leroy Smith (09:59):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (10:00):
Um, this is the result of that.
And then how do we mediate that?
Leroy Smith (10:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (10:05):
So it sounds like you had a calling, I'm gonna call it that,
and a passion from a very youngage.
Leroy Smith (10:15):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (10:16):
So do you feel like your trajectory.
Because of that went kind oflinear or did you take the windy
path?
More like me, like where it'sthere, but like there's a trend
line.
Speaking of math, right?
Look at me.
There's a trend line, but it
Leroy Smith (10:35):
I think, um, think all of our lives are kind of
similar to that.
Like there's no straight
Dr (10:44):
mm-hmm.
Leroy Smith (10:45):
I think it's part of human experience, to ground
us and to, you know, humble usand to help us have more
compassion for others.
I think it is a, anyone who hasa straight line forward tends to
be a my.
Perception, maybe, their wholelives have been planned out for
them by someone else.
Dr (11:06):
Oh.
Leroy Smith (11:06):
Um, and they have no agency.
So, and those are often peoplewho are privileged'cause I've
met some of those people.
When I went to college, I wentto pwi, and some of these people
had everything done for them.
Their whole life was set out forthem.
I mean, they, they could havenot really went to, they could
(11:26):
have went to any school theywanted to go to.
I.
They still would've made morethan most of us do because of
their connections and theirprivilege.
so their life was always in astraight line going up.
I think that's why they have ahard time sometimes, some, not,
not all of them, but I think agood portion of people who are
space have a hard time kind ofrelating to others because they
(11:47):
don't experience the same downsthat are natural and are
experienced as human beings.
So to answer that question, I'vekind of went a little up and
down throughout my life.
Um.
I started, actually at first Iwas gonna be a, I went from
wanting to become the mayor ofBaltimore City
Dr (12:04):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (12:04):
when I was a little kid to wanting to become a
lawyer for the naacp.
Um, then changing from that towanting to be a historian of
Africana studies and things likethat, then to changing, to being
a music.
Like musical performer.
As a vocalist, I thought I wasgonna travel the world and sing
(12:24):
jazz and gospel and r and b andpop and opera and all that good
stuff.
Um, then from that, as I wentinto college, I was a music ed
major, so I thought I was gonnateach music.
but the major was particularlychallenging for me because there
was so many changes in theprogram.
and, um, it was very challengingfor me at the time as well
because I was.
(12:45):
In that time, a conservatory, Iwas the only black male vocalist
that was in the entireconservatory, so I felt
Dr (12:51):
Oh wow.
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (12:53):
there was some racial incidents on campus as
well.
So that mixed with the trauma Iwas still experiencing with my
family and things that they weregoing through, there were a lot
of ups and downs.
Then I just shifted to be justmusic major, not knowing what I
wanted to do with it.
Um, did a internship, the AmerWell internship work study
program through America Reads.
(13:15):
I think it's through AmeriCorpsor not, I'm not really sure if
it's still through it, but didthat at a school and loved it
and, taught multilingualstudents how to, access English,
um, as readers and writers andspeakers.
And, then from there went intoalternative teaching program and
then kind of, I.
Stuck with that for some time ineducation.
And then the, the curriculumpiece came, the advocacy piece
(13:38):
came, the consultant piece came.
So I think things kinda happenin their natural order with the,
the ups and downs.
But I, I would say my future is,um, still open.
I think I'm trying to leavemyself open to the future
because I think.
Where I am in my healing journeyis that I, I can't predict the
full future and I'm trying toleave a little bit of space
(14:00):
because if I don't create spacein the future, I'm kind of
locking myself out and otherpeople out that I can serve.
and so I'm trying to be more inthat mindset as I, you know, be
intentionally move forward.
Dr (14:17):
That is really powerful, right?
Um, and I say that because.
You, you sound, I'm gonna callyou a high achiever, right?
Because, and I'm gonna, I'mgonna say that because to me, a
high achiever is someone whocontinues to move forward
(14:38):
through all of life's happening,right?
Leroy Smith (14:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (14:42):
to.
Um, change as change isnecessary and being open to the
new possibilities.
Leroy Smith (14:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (14:52):
Um, I think people like to think of high achievers as just
like, oh, you got the grades.
I think there are so many waysto be a high achiever and
there's, I don't, I don't wantit to be that limiting.
Leroy Smith (15:00):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (15:01):
Um,'cause how powerful, to be a person to say, okay, I am
here.
And you know, I'm feeling verystrong in what I'm doing and I
know there's something that maybe out there that I don't even
know, that I don't know yetthat's gonna come my way.
So like opening your heart andyour spirit
Leroy Smith (15:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (15:26):
that possibility.
And I just think that's reallypowerful.
I think that's a reallyimportant part of connecting
with people doing social justicework.
Um, I personally have that, sortof mantra, right?
Like, I've done 50 million, 11different things in the
trajectory of my career.
(15:48):
All really grounded in mypurpose, which is right about
people and equity and justiceand all of these things just
looking very different.
But that open mindset had me dothings that if you would've
asked me
Leroy Smith (16:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (16:05):
was, you know, the 18-year-old going to college,
oh, you're gonna, whatever, oneday I would be like, huh.
First of all, I, we couldn'thave even, I wouldn't have even
been able to imagine we couldsee each other and we're not
even in the same state, youknow, like, that didn't exist
when I was 18.
I, this makes me sound reallyold.
I swear I'm not.
But those kinds of things.
(16:25):
So I think that's also a greatmindset when.
Engaging with people that mayhave a different perspective or
viewpoint than you, like movingpast the bias, the assumption,
Leroy Smith (16:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (16:42):
um, and like you're preordained, like this is where
this is going to end
Leroy Smith (16:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (16:47):
conversation can help us better learn and understand from
each other.
I don't know.
Do you, what do you think aboutthat?
Leroy Smith (16:54):
I think that's true.
That's also part of my healingjourney.
actually looking at some of my,um, I look at my reflection
journals here or there just tosee like I.
Where I was not that long agowhere I am.
And one of the things I noticedis that although I experienced
quite a bit of trauma justbecause of the circumstances of
where I grew up, and the systemsthat influenced that or caused
(17:15):
that or had some hand in that, Iactually had quite a bit of,
like, I was both a caretaker attoo young of an age to not enjoy
the, the, the, the beauty ofchildhood.
the same time, I was also.
of the family structure, therewas a lot of looseness, loose
structure for me to create myown, um, way.
(17:38):
So I think, as I've gottenolder, I realized that it's just
kind of been a part of mynurture, kind of inadvertently
by my family and also part of mynature to just kind of find my
own way.
And I've done that, I've learnedthat I have to create space for
other people as they're findingtheir own way.
So I think.
That's why, you know, typicallywhen I speak to people, um, I, I
(17:59):
say I can sit down with evensomeone who does, who doesn't
like me or hate me because I'mopen to hear where their heart
is and where their, and where itwas.
Because I think it's, I thinksometimes the greatest, thing
that diminishes our humanity isjust not understanding.
Like I said, that up and downsthe natural parts of life.
(18:20):
I don't know what down someonewent through that created
whatever they feel or whateverthey believe.
Um, I don't know what up theyexperienced that may have
created that either.
I just know how I show up in theworld and I try my best to
understand other people, so Ithink having that openness
allows us to actually be incommunity and, and grow.
(18:41):
like I'm, I'm trying to think oflike all the gardeners out there
as gardening season.
you don't like, make enoughspace in your soil for all the
things you're growing, thingswill start growing up on top of
each other and competing forspace and they'll be in
conflict.
So there, I think even Gartersknow kind of, um.
Almost like through, how do yousay, muscle memory, that you
(19:04):
can't crowd everything.
There has to be a level ofopenness just for things to
grow.
So I think that's the space I'min now, and I'm trying to
continue that path.
Dr (19:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The plan.
Plants need a space to breathe
Leroy Smith (19:16):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (19:16):
airflow, right, to be their most productive.
Leroy Smith (19:19):
Yep.
Dr (19:19):
And I think that's a great analogy, right?
Because we as humans also,right, need space and air to
breathe and room
Leroy Smith (19:26):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (19:27):
to to grow.
I love that.
So, okay, so you did a bunch ofdifferent things.
You said you moved intoconsulting and so now you have
founded, Realized CurriculumSolutions.
You've worked with a ton ofstudents, so I tell everyone a
little bit more about that.
What does it you do, who do youwork with?
Leroy Smith (19:48):
Sure.
So, relaxed curriculumsolutions.
We started.
I would say unofficially,unofficially actually my first
year teaching, by myself,without me even knowing that
that was gonna turn intoanything really.
I would say that's back in the20 12, 20 13 school year, around
(20:08):
that time.
Um, more so 20 13, 20 14, goingaround that time, after my
residency, with.
what is it?
City Teaching Alliance.
They used to be called urbanteachers back in the day.
Dr (20:20):
Okay.
Leroy Smith (20:21):
Um, so I used to tutor some of my students on the
weekends at the libraries orsometimes tutor them during the
summer.
And at the time I was really,didn't know what to call my
company, so I was just like.
Mr.
Smith tutoring.
You know, I was just, I didn't,I was like, meet me at the
library on a Saturday between 11and one.
(20:42):
and I worked with a lot of myfamilies at the time and so it
kind of started unofficiallythere.
'cause I, once again, as ateacher in the classroom, I
realized that so many of ourstudents needed more,
Dr (20:50):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (20:51):
from a variety of different backgrounds.
And then, um, years kind of wentby.
I kind of un, you know, here orthere.
Tutor dabbled here, tutoringthere.
started off with tutoring,honestly.
And then I kind of took a breakfrom it for maybe about three
years, three or four years.
and then the, the pandemic hits,and we're stuck at home.
(21:15):
And, people kept calling me,like former families, former
students that were not in highschool getting ready for
college, who had IEPs.
Former colleagues, formersupervisors of like, how do we
support students with IEPs?
How do we support culturally andlinguistically diverse students
who are struggling during,during Global Pandemic?
(21:37):
And I was like, why does peoplecalling me?
Dr (21:41):
Because you knew something.
You knew something.
Leroy Smith (21:44):
yeah, I mean, I, that was at a different point
where I feel like my self-esteemwas really, really strange.
Like, I felt like I knew I wasgood at getting good results for
students, but I didn't thinkthat anyone else noticed other
than me.
And so I was just like, oh,people are calling me.
I was like, this is okay.
This is a lot.
And so one of the.
One of my former, parents of astudent I had at a previous
(22:06):
school had asked me, well, Mrs.
Smith, how do I pay you forhelping me with this?
And I was like, I mean, youcould just pay me.
She's like, do you have acompany?
And I was like, And she waslike, well, you should start a
business.
And I was like, And she's justlike.
So I told you this is, this is,the, the, the natural ebb and
(22:27):
flows of life.
I was like, why?
I was like, and she said, well,it's because you're really good
at what you do and I think a lotof people need what you provide.
And I was like, okay.
I thought back to an example.
We did like a in, in one, my,the, the school year before,
well, two years school, yearsbefore, before the pandemic.
We did this example with ourfirst graders, a mini unit on
(22:48):
entrepreneurship, and they werecoming up with business ideas
and business names.
And one of my students, Ari atthe time.
First grader, he said to me, Mr.
Smith, you know what I realized?
You are very good at workingwith kids that look just like
me, little black boy with theIEP.
Um, and I remember that touchedmy heart because it's one of the
quotes and one of the students Iremember, like it was yesterday,
(23:11):
even though it was a few yearsago.
And, um, once the pandemic hitwhen he said, I realized that
you.
Work well with kids that looklike me.
I just took that name realizedfrom that statement.
So, you know, I'm really,expressed gratitude to him.
I don't know where he is now.
Um, I'm sure he's in high schoolnow and, probably 10th grade it
was like, ninth or 10th
Dr (23:32):
That's the worst part, right?
You're like, oh, that student isnow 30 oh oh.
Leroy Smith (23:37):
know.
I know.
So, um, so yes, I named mycompany Realized Solutions and
it was also, uh, an awakeningfor me of like realizing my own
worth as a human being beyonddoing the work, but actually
just caring about others andjust showing up for people the
best way I know how to.
(23:58):
and so then it kind oftransitioned into advocacy work.
A lot of people then startedflooding, like.
How do we get help for our kids?
They need an IEP, they needevaluations, they need this.
and then shortly after that itwas like, it was kind of kinda
like that, like you said,bouncing around thing.
tutoring came back into space'cause a lot of the people who I
was advocating for also wantedme to tutor their kid as well
(24:21):
because they wanted to make surethat they can catch up in their
IEP goals and their
Dr (24:25):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (24:25):
school.
And then as time went on.
People who were formercolleagues and supervisors were
just like, Hey, we've known thatyou've done a lot of curriculum
work over the summers for aschool district.
we need you to help us with PDand curriculum.
So then I got into PD andcurriculum, workshops.
And so that's kind of where weare now actually is more so in
(24:47):
the PD workshop space foreducators, education leaders
and, and, families.
so we partner with educationalorganizations, to help them.
Both develop and adapt andimplement curriculum resources
for, neurodivergent students ofcolors as to color.
And so that's what we do now anduh, it's been great.
(25:09):
I mean, I have to revise mywebsite because the 10,000
students was in the past and Imade the website,
Dr (25:14):
Okay.
Leroy Smith (25:15):
one of my clients.
Um, the Center Pacific Educationthrough some of the work I did
with them on their, we thePeople Project with teachers a
few years ago back in LA um, thecurriculum that they have
implemented has touched over 1million students in the
Dr (25:28):
Oh, that's so cool.
Leroy Smith (25:30):
so when they told me that recently, I was kind of
floored.
I never thought, I mean, I, Ididn't even think I was gonna be
a, an entrepreneur.
Never thought that, didn't thinkI was gonna be a homeowner,
Dr (25:40):
Look, you thought you were gonna be the mayor of Baltimore
City, so.
Leroy Smith (25:43):
Well, I don't know if I want that at all.
'cause that's just too much.
It's too much work.
Too much work.
I feel like my calling isworking with people who are in
education and working withpeople who care for children.
Dr (25:54):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (25:55):
but, uh, yeah, I stumbled into, well my
girlfriend says is different.
You didn't stumble into things.
The world just kind.
you in that way?
Because I didn't think I wasgonna go to college.
Uh, Dr.
Tami, I mean, I grew up in arough neighborhood where gun
violence was an issue.
Dr (26:10):
Mm-hmm.
Leroy Smith (26:11):
think I was gonna live.
It was a personable amount oftime just to live past 18
Dr (26:15):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (26:16):
to too many funerals for too many people in
my family.
Seen too many people go to jail,and I just thought, I didn't
wanna go to jail.
I didn't want to, you know, dieyoung.
That was, that was real for meat the
Dr (26:26):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (26:27):
So I didn't think I was gonna go to college until
teachers pushed me.
I didn't think I was gonnabecome a homeowner until people
pushed me.
I didn't think I was gonna be anentrepreneur until people pushed
me.
So I'm learning that, I have tokind of lean into the fact that
there are people who see thingsin me that I don't see for
myself.
Dr (26:43):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (26:44):
and I'm trying to do what's right by myself, but
also right by them becausethey've invested time, energy,
and money to ensure that.
my company supports as manychildren throughout this country
as we possibly can so that theycan see themselves reflected in
their curriculum, that they canfeel like they have the skills
necessary to do something abouttheir, um, their now.
(27:06):
Not their future, but their now,because their now is, living
through stuff now, you know?
And so,
Dr (27:13):
the time.
Every day.
Yes.
Yes.
Like it's that phrase like, um,tomorrow, can't wait.
But I, I think there's like areally powerful statement in
what you said, right?
People can see things in youthat you couldn't see in
yourself.
And I think just as an educator,um, and as a human, I think it's
(27:34):
important that we share thosethings with people because
you're like, wait, what?
Leroy Smith (27:41):
Yep.
Dr (27:42):
um.
It's so funny, I told you we'rekindred spirits.
First of all, I love that yourname of your company has a
story.
Leroy Smith (27:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (27:52):
my company name also has a story'cause you, nothing about
this name says equity work.
Um, but you know, I think thestory is.
I believe in the power of story,just first of all, um, which is
why I do this podcast.
I love the podcast because Ithink people relate to other
humans.
We've historically alwaysrelated to each other via story
Leroy Smith (28:14):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (28:15):
an experience and seeing and hearing other people do that,
and you're like, oh, maybe,maybe I could do that
Leroy Smith (28:22):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (28:23):
too.
You know, I too had otherpeople, like I've done all kinds
of things and they're like, youshould just, just, just do it.
Just start.
Just start your own company.
Right?
And I love that you hadconfirmation along
Leroy Smith (28:35):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (28:36):
way, right?
In ways that you weren'texpecting.
You're like, wait, what?
Okay, like, and then thishappens and it's those, I don't
know.
For me, those little nuggets arewhat keep you going in, figuring
out where the next door opens orthe next relationship, um, or
(28:57):
connection you're going.
To make.
Leroy Smith (29:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (29:03):
I love that about this work.
You know, I love that aboutpeople, right?
Because there's a lot of crazyin the world, and I think social
media and our current cycle hasmade it seem, uh, how do I wanna
say this?
Like, everything is bad.
Leroy Smith (29:20):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (29:22):
I actually still believe in my heart that there are more
people that want.
Good and are trying to do thingsright by other people
Leroy Smith (29:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (29:32):
want to care and support for people.
And I hope my goal is like, howdo you use your voice?
I want everyone to find a way touse their voice in a way that's
unique for them, that helpssupport this collective
humanity.
We have.
Leroy Smith (29:48):
That's part of the work that we do is when we're
designing lessons or unit plansor assessments or rubrics, we're
thinking about learningopportunities for children who
typically.
Have been cast aside by societyor given up on, I mean, you
know, students who have, youknow, who are neurodivergent or
who have disabilities, who arealso students of color.
Dr (30:11):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (30:12):
This is like the combination of like the most
forgotten in our society whenyou look at unemployment rates.
It's not just, people of colorwho are historically more
marginalized in unemployment.
It's people of color who have adisability status.
Are like really feeling it rightnow and have been feeling it for
such a long time.
(30:33):
and so we try to createopportunities where people see
that we have been resisting fromday one.
It is a part of human nature toresist negativity that comes
your way.
and that that's the beauty ofour experience.
I think.
I was just listening to apodcast maybe about an hour
before I got on with you um, allof the untold undocumented.
(30:56):
Um, rebellions that happen forenslaved Africans here in the US
that are not mentioned in almostany history book, unless you go
to the collegiate level to looka little deeper.
Dr (31:07):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (31:08):
and there's a reason for that.
It's the same thing for socialmedia, that the algorithms are
planned in a way that we kind offeel disempowered, that we feel
like things are worse than.
they actually are.
Um, I'm in the firm belief thatthings have historically because
we're humans and we're notperfect things, have always had
(31:29):
a level of crazy and always hada level of hope At the same
time, I think we're just thenext, we're just the current
generation of human beings thatare experiencing part of.
What is deeply human, the good
Dr (31:42):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (31:42):
and the ugly.
and I think it's our turn thistime to experience.
What does it mean to resistagainst the ugly and the bad in
the world, whatever that mightbe.
Dr (31:54):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (31:55):
and how do we cultivate, you know, my
girlfriend said, she's like, I,I don't have the energy to fight
all the bad, but I do haveenergy to cultivate the good I'm
gonna cultivate the good sothat.
Our next generation that comesup behind us when they go
through the human experience ofthe good, the bad, and ugly.
know what good feels like.
They know what it, um, lookslike and sounds like, and
(32:18):
they're willing to do it becauseit's been done for them.
and so that's kind of the spaceI'm also in too.
It's just like, as much as Ican, I wanna cultivate the good
so people can realize that thereis a level of strength and, and
power that we do have in ournoun.
Dr (32:33):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (32:34):
a fifth grade student who is reading two years
below grade level in DC orBaltimore, wherever in the
country, you still have just asmuch power as the person who
goes to the private school.
You know, with all the money andall the fame and all the glory,
you have power.
But we have to find ways to getyou to tap into it
Dr (32:54):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (32:54):
power is whatever their power is.
It might make you feel small,but you're never small.
You're always bigger than whatyou think you are.
And that's something my teachersinstilled in me at a young age
and also family members, is justthat the world is as big as we
believe it is, and we are as bigas we believe we are.
And if we see ourselves assmall, we're gonna see everyone
(33:15):
around us as small mindedpeople.
I remember my fifth gradeteacher said that if you see
yourself as small, you're gonnaproject that upon other people
and they're gonna see themselvesas small.
And then now you have a smallminded conversation.
But if you see that other personas big and full.
You see yourself as big as full.
You can have a big and fullconversation and engage in a way
that's more nuanced.
(33:37):
Um, so that's what we do.
We want people to have the toughconversations.
We want people, the children tosay, guess what?
My community may not be all thethings I want it to be, but I
have, I have a, a role in thisto do
Dr (33:50):
Mm.
Leroy Smith (33:51):
about it for myself and for others.
And I can start today.
I don't have to wait until I'man adult.
I don't have to
Dr (33:57):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (33:58):
The legal age to vote.
I can start now in my own smallways of, of being in service to
myself and others.
Dr (34:06):
Yeah.
Whew.
Okay.
Amen.
Amen.
Um, okay.
I wanna ask this because Ibelieve in all of those.
I, I believe that, and I thinkthere are a lot of people that
believe that.
Leroy Smith (34:23):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:25):
So I have two questions really.
Leroy Smith (34:26):
Sure.
Dr (34:27):
One kind of thinking around the, the current climate and the
pushback
Leroy Smith (34:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:34):
around servicing,
Leroy Smith (34:37):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:38):
students with disabilities around,
Leroy Smith (34:40):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:41):
you know, that culturally responsive,
Leroy Smith (34:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:45):
education needs to go away.
You know, this idea that we haveto scrub
Leroy Smith (34:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (34:52):
words, um.
One.
I'm just curious how and ifthat's affected what you and
your organization do at all.
And then two, what's your kindof best suggestion for people
looking to make that difference
Leroy Smith (35:09):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (35:09):
this climate?
I.
Leroy Smith (35:10):
Mm-hmm.
Um, right now it has, it issomewhat affected my work, both
in.
I would say a unique way.
I think it's made me thinkdifferently about how people
approach this topic.
I think when people hear wordslike equity or whatever else,
other words they might hear in,in the litany of, I say the
(35:32):
lexicon of doing right bypeople.
Dr (35:34):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (35:35):
Um, I think people hear those things and it.
Means different things todifferent people or from
different experiences.
So it's made me become morestrategic about how I speak
about the work and what I do.
Think people, you know, there isa fear that persist at the
societal level, that when you doright by all people, the society
(36:00):
then crumbles, or that thesociety can't sustain itself
because.
Now the truths are out there.
And now the truths are not in indeep opposition with what we
have been raised or what we havebeen taught to believe.
and I think because of thenatural instinct of human beings
to hold on whatever they holddear to their hearts, I.
(36:24):
Is the reason why the resistanceis so strong to the troops that
are of all people here.
so I think that's where some ofthat is.
And I think also because somepeople just don't experience
those things.
If you've lived a life whereyou've never experienced these
kind of struggles, uh, you'reprobably not gonna care as much.
(36:44):
Not because, and it doesn't meanthat you're heartless, it
Dr (36:47):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (36:47):
that.
This is a foreign concept toyou.
and so I think for me, I'mapproaching the work
understanding that not everyonewho has privilege or who does
not have privilege in, indifferent ways is coming into
these, this current time thatwe're in.
Seeing it, coming in with a, youknow, mal intent.
Some people coming in with ajust out, out of sheer, like, I
(37:08):
don't know what this is.
Dr (37:10):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (37:10):
this.
I can't, I, I'm, I don't, I'mnot concerned about that, about.
who have disabilities notgetting their services met
because my kids don't have them.
I'm not concerned about, youknow, the various truths about
people's experiences beingtaught in school, because in my
neighborhood there are no otherkids that look like my kids.
(37:31):
so why, why should I beconcerned about that?
So I, I think that's a part ofit.
So I have to strategicallyunderstand that, because of how
we are.
Especially in this countrybecause of how we are still
segregated, um, throughout thecountry and how so many people
live so far away from eachother.
I didn't realize how big the USwas, but also how small at the
(37:52):
same time is big enough thatpeople like live in the same
state or.
Live a few towns over and notexperience any cultural
diversity,
Dr (38:01):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (38:02):
which is shocking to me.
Um, but it's also small enoughthat we can experience a whole
bunch of things at one time.
so I think that's one and two, Ithink I, what we can do about it
is remind ourselves we are justthe, the, the latest iteration
of our species that are goingthrough what, what we've always
(38:24):
gone through.
I think that makes me feelempowered because me not think
that this is a unique challenge.
This is a challenge that is.
Deeply embedded within ourexperience as human beings and
our species is in our DNA, thatsome of us will, will do some
very lewd and crazy things, andothers of us will try to say,
(38:45):
let's not do that, and let'sfind some way to not make that
happen.
Dr (38:49):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (38:50):
I mean, I don't wanna put it out there like this
is all genealogy, but I, I thinkit's, in our experience that
that happens, I think ourselfthat we.
Have a blueprint for people who
Dr (39:03):
Hmm.
Leroy Smith (39:03):
along in the past and who are currently creating
a, a new blueprint right now.
for how to resist, I think.
I think culturally as, andmusically, I think about one of
my favorite genres to sing ourspirituals.
Dr (39:17):
Hmm.
Leroy Smith (39:18):
and it's the music of people who were pressed on
plantations, who were sold onthe auction block.
People who in the north werebeing hunted down by the KKK in
New Hampshire and New York.
Even though they say that theKKK was only in the South,
Dr (39:31):
Right.
Leroy Smith (39:32):
it's the people who, you know, left their
families in the south.
Seeking for a better life, goingup north, not knowing what was
gonna happen when they wentnorth or not knowing what was
gonna happen when they movedwest and singing these
spirituals that eventuallybecame blues and r and b and
gospel and jazz and similarstyles.
We enjoy country music and allkinds of things today.
(39:52):
it reminds me of that, is thatour ancestors sang even when
they were picking cotton like I,that, or, or indigo in our area,
um, in Maryland, like theyweren't going to let.
Someone else who said they hadownership over their bodies, get
the last word,
Dr (40:11):
Mm.
Leroy Smith (40:11):
last word, even if they were still going through
the, trauma that theyexperienced.
It was even so that some ofthese plantation, um, owners
started to realize that thatwasn't act of resistance.
The dance, the ring shouts thesinging, they started to have
these things called silentplantations.
(40:32):
Where they didn't want you totalk at all.
But then we found ways to becreative with our hairstyles
Dr (40:38):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (40:38):
with our hairstyles, and we found ways to
be creative in the patches wewore in our clothes, and the
foods that we ate or when we hadtime to downtime or whatever it
may have been.
Um, so it just reminds me ofthat is that we are just going
through yet another iteration.
I mean, it's not the exact samething that
Dr (40:57):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (40:57):
generations went through, but.
is the, it is the humanexperience that we're gonna come
to grips with the evils and thegoods of the world and
everything that's in between.
Um, and I think reminding myselfthat there's always something we
can do, even if it's just youhaving the thought.
I don't like what's going on.
Like, starting there issomething you can do.
(41:18):
Um, when I work and I coach someteachers,
Dr (41:21):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (41:22):
this day and time, letting your kids know that
their disabilities do not definethem.
Is a part of the resistance,letting them know that there
have been people who, you know,I, my favorite example is
Harriet Tubman, a woman whosuffered from epilepsy.
Could you imagine
Dr (41:37):
Right.
Leroy Smith (41:37):
the first woman to lead a, a, a regiment in the
army in the United States tofree hundreds of slaves on one
day and one day, let alone allthe other hundreds.
She freed just by herself.
Dr (41:50):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (41:51):
I think about a woman who went through seizures
who said, you know what?
She was willing to go throughthat just to free her people.
So I put it in the, in the handsof everyone else, like I'm
putting it in my own hands, isthat the smallest and or biggest
things that we can do is tellourselves that I.
We know that there are thingsthat are wrong.
We're gonna do something aboutit.
We're gonna tell our childrenthat there's always something
(42:13):
you can do about it, even ifit's just us going down to city
hall and asking questions orgoing to the school board
meeting and asking questions,even if it's us asking our
energy supplier.
Why are you overcharging me?
Are you overcharging myneighbors, talking to your
neighbors?
Like, are you being overcharged?
Are you being overcharged?
Where is this coming from?
So, you know, or gettingtogether and having a community
(42:35):
garden so we can feed ourselvesso we don't have to worry about
the food prices.
Dr (42:39):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (42:40):
little small things go a long way.
Giving donating clothes,donating diapers, donating
whatever you have that you don'tneed in ex, because we have a
lot of access in this
Dr (42:50):
Oh, absolutely we do.
Leroy Smith (42:51):
know, whatever we can do to help, whether it's,
you have, you just had a bunchof kittens, you had a lit of
kittens, and you know, yourneighbor next door is an elderly
person who needs company.
You're giving the kitten to thatperson because you want that
person to have a therapy animalor have something to care for.
So I think those are the smallways we can do things that make
a huge difference.
Um, I, I, I think the enemywants us to.
(43:14):
Be disempowered and, anddisenfranchised and, and I'm not
one to allow it to happenbecause the life that I've
lived, I've seen down a barrelof a gun a few times.
And the one thing that you know,my father instilled in me is
when these things happen, yourenemy wants you to run away and
hide.
Dr (43:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Leroy Smith (43:33):
for us to run away and hide.
This is time for us to say, youknow what?
Stuff is hitting the fan.
It is time for us to figure outwhat are the, the I can do to
help myself and to help others,um, in the most genuine ways
possible.
And I think that's how weresist, and I think that's the
thing that's gonna get usthrough this iteration of what
(43:54):
we're all going through as humanbeings.
Dr (43:56):
Yes.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I totally agree with you.
Like isn't the time to besilent?
They do want us to be feeldisempowered.
And, uh, disenfranchised and Ithink all the things you said
are so important, right?
The resistance always finds away.
So whatever that can look like
Leroy Smith (44:15):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (44:16):
you as an individual,
Leroy Smith (44:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (44:19):
um, to stand up for what is right for people and share that
with other people, that justmakes it better for the
collective.
So, absolutely.
I keep saying that, I'm like,now is not the time to be
silent.
Now is not the time.
Right.
Someone asked me, oh, are yougoing to change the name of your
podcast?
I was like, Nope.
Leroy Smith (44:40):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (44:41):
Nope.
Um, I can be mindful, like thereare lots of ways to talk about
Leroy Smith (44:45):
Yeah.
Dr (44:46):
what it is we do, just like you were saying.
Um, but I'm not gonna change thename,
Leroy Smith (44:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (44:52):
um, because this is what we're talking about,
Leroy Smith (44:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr (44:57):
like I recently had someone say something about wanting to
be on the podcast, but one thatdoesn't wanna use the word
equity.
I'm like, uh, well you probablycan't be on my podcast'cause
that's an actual title.
Like.
Leroy Smith (45:06):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr (45:10):
Bless your heart, but, I think those are such wise words
of wisdom and I, and I don'twanna detract from that, um,
with whatever it is I'm about tosay, but.
No, it was just so powerful foreveryone to hear and to end on.
And I think it's important forpeople to remember and lean on.
(45:32):
So it, and I think if you don'tknow some of those things, learn
about some of these things.
So you can also feel you don't,'cause you don't know what you
don't know, but if you go andlearn, I know you were talking
about like slave revolts.
Um, I don't know if you read Dr.
Rebecca Hall's book Wake.
It's about women involved in theslave revolts.
Leroy Smith (45:50):
No, not yet.
It's a, it is in my, it is inmy, uh, what do you call it?
My cart.
I'm
Dr (45:55):
You're like TBR, like your car.
Okay.
Highly recommend.
Leroy Smith (45:58):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna get it now.
'cause you're like the thirdperson, like in the past like
two months and I've had it, Ihad a, a few books sitting in my
cart.
I'm like, all right, I'm gonnaget
Dr (46:05):
Okay.
Leroy Smith (46:06):
by me.
Dr (46:07):
You definitely need to do that.
I'll have to message you.
I can't remember which episodeit was, but I, I talked with the
educator who uses it with herstudents and like takes their
perspective.
It's so, so cool.
And she has a second book comingout we just heard, but.
Leroy Smith (46:19):
Oh my gosh, that is so cool.
Dr (46:21):
Yes.
It's so cool.
I'll send it to you because someof the stuff that they did was
amazing and I think it wouldalign a lot with
Leroy Smith (46:26):
Yes.
Dr (46:27):
is you do.
Leroy Smith (46:27):
to do that.
Dr (46:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, okay, so I know we're kindof coming to the end of our time
and I know you just gave us likeso many amazing nuggets, but is
there like one piece of advicethat you would want people to
leave with around, you know,wanting to engage with this
work?
What would you say with them?
Leroy Smith (46:46):
I would say engaging.
Engaging the work with equitystarts with you, and starts with
you kind of like learning a lotmore about yourself, um, and
learning a lot more about thepeople that you love.
Learning about the people thatare just in your community.
I think that's the, that's thestarting point.
I think it's very hard to say,do a solution you don't really
(47:11):
know the people that you'redoing that for often.
That's the thing I feel likepeople do.
They propose solutions, but theynever really talk to the people
who the solution is for.
they don't really live among thepeople.
They don't ask some questions.
So I would say start withyourself and, you might learn
along the way.
There's some things that youneed to learn.
You might learn
Dr (47:31):
Mm.
Leroy Smith (47:31):
way that there might be questions that you have
and you, I think often the workof equity, you know, makes you
more courageous.
a lot of people already have alevel of courage with them,
think when you're in the work ofmaking things fair for people,
it gives you a level of, um,courage that you can't get
(47:52):
anywhere else.
It kind of pushes you to seeyourself as not just a singular
individual thing or entity, butthat you are part of a
connective piece of humanhistory.
That history is being made everyday you wake up.
History is being made every daythat you ask a question
Dr (48:12):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (48:12):
that you, um, support.
So I think that's the, the, thepiece I want people to walk with
is start with yourself.
Ask yourself the toughquestions.
I, the one question I ask myselfevery day is, did the way I was
raised impact how I see theworld?
And the answer to that isalways, yes.
Dr (48:31):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (48:31):
I see, I see the world um, you know, my
girlfriend, she's apsychologist, so she actually,
she's, she always makes fun ofme for this.
see the world as kind of like inthe words Apollo, you know,
fair, you know, Apollo farrierand, and pedagogy of presses.
Um, but.
This world has people who arewilling to break the chains of
(48:53):
oppression.
And there are some people whowant the chains of oppression to
be here.
Dr (48:57):
Yes.
Leroy Smith (48:58):
and so I say reflect upon yourself because
believe it or not, we might bein, in his words, we might be in
a false reality where we thinkthat we're actually producing
solutions for people to breaktheir chains.
But if, if anything, exchangingyour change for a different kind
of oppression
Dr (49:13):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (49:14):
knowing, um, because we're not investigating
ourselves and we're not.
Being in community with othersto really know exactly what they
need to, to, to thrive.
so that's why I say that becauseI don't want you to go out and
just think, oh, I'm just gonnaread a bunch of research papers
and it's, I'm gonna have all theanswers.
I'm read all the books, I'mgonna have all the answers.
I'm just gonna go into the andto whatever community and just
(49:36):
do these things.
And then all the people in thatcommunity gonna be grateful for
it.
No, just check yourself
Dr (49:41):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (49:42):
in with others and see.
What it is that they need.
Because like I said, myneighbor's on this block.
I know one of my elderlyneighbors, she likes getting
plants.
That's what she needs to feelgood in her retirement.
But another elderly neighbornext door, she loves all her
little cats that run around andthat's something that she needs.
And they live right next to, toeach other.
Pretty much the same age.
(50:02):
there's older black women inBaltimore in, in a.
Mixed income community, andguess what They approach, what
they need for healing twodifferent ways.
Dr (50:12):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (50:12):
Um, so just checking in with people and
checking in with yourself, Ithink is the easiest thing to
do.
And, and it makes it, it makesthe equity work feel manageable
because I think a lot of peopletap out of the work because they
feel like it's too big that theycan't solve
Dr (50:25):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (50:26):
But when you check in with yourself and you check
in with others, it feels a lotmore manageable.
Dr (50:30):
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
It always starts with awarenessof self because then that
influences how we interact withothers.
So thank you for that nugget andfor all the gems that you
dropped today.
It's been such a pleasure, Lee,to have you on the podcast.
Thank you for joining us.
Leroy Smith (50:48):
It was true.
Pleasure.
Dr (50:50):
All right, everyone.
Thank you for joining us foranother episode of The Equity
Hour.
You can find a link to the bookWake Plus Leroy's website in the
show notes.
Until next time, thanks.
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