July 1, 2025 • 58 mins
In this powerful highlight episode, Dr. Tami revisits standout moments from six transformative conversations on The Equity Hour. These voices challenge, inspire, and ground us in what it means to lead with equity, courage, and clarity.
🔊 Featured Voices:
- Megan Fuciarelli on evolving from cultural missteps to culturally responsive teaching
- Katie O’Malley on humility, white guilt, and career choices shaped by justice
- LaTerrian "LT" Officer-McIntosh on self-advocacy, storytelling, and shifting the narrative through media
- Dewayne McClary on digital equity, system-level change, and the power of access
- Dr. Shelly Jones Holt on epigenetics, courageous leadership, and the myth of comfort = safety
- Leroy Smith on reflection, healing, and leadership as spaciousness
Whether you’re deep into this work or just beginning, this episode offers honest reflections and tangible insights on how we move from awareness to action—and from discomfort to transformation.
✨ If this episode resonates with you, share it, tag us, and keep the conversation going.
Summer Webinar Series
Coaching Discovery Call
Enjoying the show?
Become a subscriber: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2226037/support
Would you like to be on the show or know someone who Dr. Tami should talk with? Let us know!
Follow us on Instagram to find more resources connected to today's episode.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Equity
Hour podcast with me, Dr.
Tami, and this special Q1highlight episode.
We are revisiting powerfulconversations that lit up our
podcast.
This year you'll hear wisdomfrom leaders who are
re-imagining education,centering justice, and walking
(00:23):
the talk of transformationalleadership.
Whether you're new or a longtimelistener, this is your chance to
hear the moments that made uspause, reflect, and push
forward.
We begin today's episode withSegment one with Megan
(00:44):
Fuciarelli and her episode ofEvery Voice Matters.
During this episode, Meganreminded us that leadership
rooted in humility and sharedpower is not a weakness.
It is a strength.
Her courage to center studentvoice and her journey toward
creating safe spaces for allcontinues to resonate deeply.
(01:08):
Let's hear a clip from thatepisode.
Megan Fuciarelli (01:14):
And then when I went off to college, I
experienced significant cultureshock.
I had no idea what I was walkinginto.
I was placed in theinternational dorm and being
placed in the internationaldorm, being surrounded by people
who did not look like me, spokelanguages I didn't understand,
ate food I had never eventhought of.
(01:35):
Like, it was, I was so confused.
Dr (01:38):
Your eyes were probably popping out of your head.
Did you choose the internationaldorm or you just happened to get
placed there?
Megan Fuciarelli (01:45):
No, I think it was one of those issues of my
surname.
Fuciarelli I don't know if theythought I was from a te or, from
Italy, or I did not choose it.
I was placed there.
My parents were afraid for me.
Because it was, like, Oh mygosh, what is she gonna do?
And then when we found out I hadone roommate from Russia, which
(02:07):
At that point, all I knew aboutRussia was the USSR and Mikhail
Gorbachev.
Like I didn't know anythingabout.
anything.
I was so clueless, but oneroommate was from Russia and
another roommate was from Japan.
And I just remember my parentswere scared, not because they
were hateful people, but theywere also very sheltered, didn't
understand.
(02:27):
And their understanding ofdiversity was fear.
And yeah, being placed in theinternational dorm was a culture
shock moment.
I made a lot of missteps earlyin my journey, uh, went into
education.
And that's really where itstarted, was I started as a
teacher wanting to make surethat curriculum represented all
(02:47):
identities.
Um, I was really angry when Ifound out later in life that
Thanksgiving wasn't the way Iwas taught.
Um, like I was angry.
I was like, why did they lie tome?
And then I felt horrible becauseas a teacher I taught
Thanksgiving incorrectly becausethat's what I was taught.
So, I have to ask this question.
(03:08):
Like, how did you, because I hadto think back of how I even
learned the accurate depictionof Thanksgiving.
I wasn't taught it in school,right?
Like, I actually perpetuated theissue by teaching it incorrectly
for many years.
Where did you learn or how didyou learn about what actually
happened on Thanksgiving?
Was it something you were taughtin elementary school?
(03:28):
Was it something your parentstaught you?
How did you learn?
Dr (03:32):
neither one of those.
Um, really the.
I'll think I'll just say thecatalyst for me thinking about
that way when it comes tocurriculum and education and
what we are are not taughtreally goes back to, one of my
undergraduate professors.
(03:53):
I can't I, I, I keep feelinglike it was an extra project
that I've decided to do for somereason, but I don't can't
remember the details.
But anyway, I read dreamkeepers.
So Dr Anna Floriani was myprofessor.
She was amazing.
But we talked so much aboutperspective.
Cause she did my ELA methodscourse, and I think that was
really the catalyst, um, likethis aha moment for me and my
(04:18):
education.
Like, I always kind of knew it.
But it just made it very real.
And then so from that point on,it really affected how I thought
about the perspectives or lackthereof that were available to
me as an educator.
How do I bring those in?
and just really kind of set thetone.
(04:38):
For everything else
Megan Fuciarelli (04:40):
Okay.
Dr (04:41):
So, thank you, Dr.
Floriani and Dr.
Gloria Ladson Billings forwriting the book.
Megan Fuciarelli (04:48):
Right.
Dr (04:49):
So, I really don't know, but yeah, so I've been looking at,
you know, diverse texts andperspectives since I was a, I
call myself a young little pup.
Megan Fuciarelli (05:01):
Yeah, my college experience did not do
that.
Like there was no teaching ofhow to teach from different
perspectives.
I had a phenomenal professorlike you that Dr.
Ivy Goduka.
She is the person who opened upmy eyes to diversity work and
really understanding socialjustice and what we call it a
(05:23):
squared Jedi work.
Um, she was from South Africa.
I've tried for 30 years to getin touch with her like, I need
you.
Where are you?
No one can find her.
I've put please out on socialmedia.
I put her in my book, like,please, if you're reading this,
I need to find you.
Um, but it wasn't aboutperspectives and teaching and I
(05:43):
never got that.
And I remember.
It was when I went to my owndiversity training where it was
one of the first trainings Iwent to and I was talking to
some people there and someonewas reading lies my teacher told
me
Dr (05:58):
Oh, mm hmm.
Megan Fuciarelli (05:59):
I found so much stuff.
Like that was the book that mademe angry I was like what?
Why was I taught incorrectly?
What?
Dr (06:07):
You know what?
I had to read that book as anundergraduate too.
Maybe that.
Megan Fuciarelli (06:13):
Yeah, I I wasn't I had graduated at that
point when I read it because Iremember I had taught
Thanksgiving like I did thetraditional all right half the
class is going to make the hatand half the class is going to
make the feather man like Igenuinely did that right and I
share that story when I do mywork because there are still
(06:33):
classrooms across the U.
S.
Who do that to this day?
And I'm like, look, I've beenthere.
Like, I understand yourintention not to harm anyone.
You don't know any better.
But now I'm here to tell youthat's not accurate.
And you need to do somethingdifferent.
Like I'm
Dr (06:47):
Like the hand where this
Megan Fuciarelli (06:49):
Yeah.
Dr (06:49):
the turkey and then this side is the Native American with
the feathers.
Yes.
Megan Fuciarelli (06:57):
Like Many of us either did that as a child or
maybe even perpetuated it byteaching it as teachers.
Like, I was one of thoseteachers.
I remember teaching thematicunits about Africa.
Like, it's this monolith ofpeople.
Like, I did so many horriblethings.
And now here I am doing the workfull time, and it's part of that
(07:20):
journey.
Like, we have to be human withourselves and acknowledge that
there's going to be growth.
Every single day, I learnsomething new of, Ooh, ooh, the
origination of that's probablynot something I want to
perpetuate, so let's change myvocabulary slightly.
Dr (07:35):
yes.
And I think that's such animportant point, Megan, is that
I feel like.
A lot of people think that thisis like a boom, like a one and
done, or, you know, we justshowed up like this into the
social justice work.
And that's just, I always say,like, it is an ongoing learning
(07:58):
trajectory.
Like there, to me, there'salways something to learn.
I find out all the time, like,I'm trying to think of one off
the top of my head, but I can't,but there was some word I was
like, I just bleh out andthey're like, Oh, do you know
that's rooted in?
I was like, I did not, but I amso glad you told me.
Megan's story reminds us thattransformation begins with
(08:20):
discomfort, but through honestreflection, it leads to deep and
lasting impact.
Listen to the full episode inseason two, episode three.
Our next segment comes from ourguest from our season two,
episode nine.
(08:41):
And it is Katie O'Malley Katie'shonesty and humility cut
through.
It's easy to assume you need allthe answers to show up for
justice, but as she shows usshowing up with curiosity and
the willingness to be changed bywhat you learn, that's a form of
courage.
(09:04):
Let's take a listen to her clip.
Katie OMalley (09:09):
Honestly, if I were to go back all the way to
when I was five years old, I, Ithink it started there, which
You know, as someone whoidentifies and moves through the
world as a white cisgender womanwho came from a middle class
Catholic family in the suburbsto think my equity and social
(09:31):
justice journey started at fiveseems crazy.
However one of the things interms of equity that was very
apparent to me growing up wasthe difference in socio economic
status across my family being inthe suburbs coming into the city
to visit family.
There was just difference andthere was disparity and really
(09:54):
trying to understand and notjudge that as a child and having
a mother that was.
You know, a single mom raisedthree kiddos.
This was even before I came intothe picture working three
different jobs to try to makeends meet right before she
started living this differentlife after she met my father.
(10:17):
And so having had herperspective from, from such a
young age was, was reallyhelpful for me, but I was also
raised Catholic and I will tellyou up until a certain age,
there's some really goodmessages.
There that are all really rootedin social justice.
Dr (10:34):
We're to come back to up to a certain age.
Katie OMalley (10:37):
We, we'll come back to it.
So, you know, there was that inthis idea of we're all, and I,
and I say this recognizing the,the, the colorblindness that.
We'll come out of the same andwe're all the same, right?
So we need to treat each otherwith dig Every person deserves
dignity and respect and to livea full life.
(10:59):
And it always just seemed soEasy for me.
And as I grew older, I didn'tunderstand why it was so
difficult for other people.
Especially as we started to comeinto our own social identities,
personal identities some ofwhich have more unearned
(11:21):
advantage and power than others.
And I can remember.
And this is probably why Istarted my career where I did in
the political and nonprofitarena.
I'm just moving through theworld feeling this immense sense
of guilt, all the time foreverything that I had and never
(11:41):
being able to put words to itwhich I later learned white
guilt, white privilege but itwasn't until I hit graduate
school at 30 that I actually hada vocabulary to describe why I
chose the career path that Ichose.
I thought I'd been given so muchand now I have to It's my duty
to return it, and it's my turnto sacrifice in these ways and
(12:04):
working, my gosh, working at theInnocence Project and then the
AIDS Foundation of Chicagohelping folks who were convicted
for crimes that they didn'tcommit, spending 10, 15, 20, 30,
40 years in prison, sometimes ondeath row, and to see it.
(12:26):
The stark contrast in theclientele, it was.
99.
9 percent people of color, menof color, right?
We're our clients and reallystarting to ask the questions
like, how did this happen?
No one covered this in collegewith me.
What, what is this?
Obviously there's a systemichappening.
(12:47):
Now this is 2004, 2005.
So the literature is obviouslythere, but not something I had
been exposed to.
So kept doing the work in NewYork City.
And then when I got to the AIDSFoundation of Chicago, a brand
new set of lessons and learningsand understanding about the LGBT
(13:08):
community and the struggles forequity that, that existed in and
continue to persist there aswell.
Especially when we look at.
The HIV AIDS epidemic.
So I, I guess I could keepgoing.
But I, I think to the, thequestion about my equity
journey.
So much of it is rooted in thechoices I've made in my career.
(13:32):
I'm really being willing toexpose myself to folks that have
had different lived experiencesthan me and not trying to come
in as.
Some I'm gonna mess this up the,the white person on the horse
trying to solve
Dr (13:50):
savior.
Katie OMalley (13:51):
savior.
Yeah, I'm just coming in withcultural humility like I didn't,
I don't know and it wasn't myplace to know I was there to be
of service and to, to learn
Dr (14:04):
Katie reminded us that equity work is deeply personal
and that brings us to LaTerrian,Officer-McIntosh or LT, whose
journey from USC Film School toSouth Dakota is a testament to
what happens when we refuse toaccept the status quo.
From calling the districtherself as a teenager to
enrolling in an IB film class toavoid chemistry, and then
(14:28):
landing a job on Spider-Manhomecoming.
LT's story is one ofself-efficacy, creative
resistance, and using media toreframe the narrative.
LT (14:40):
With my grandparents, it wasn't private school.
It was just school and my mom,it was just school.
And so.
Around sixth grade, and that'swhen I, um, started going to
school over at my grandparents'house is when I realized that
there was a major difference andthe difference.
And, and you know, when you're,when you're your child, you're
not, you don't understand all ofthese big historical things all
(15:03):
different factors.
I said, this is the black schooland over here where all the kids
look like me.
We're not actually learningvery, very much.
And the, the lunch is actuallynot very good.
Teachers are overwhelmed and wedon't have books.
And over here I have the time ofmy life in the sense of like all
the resources are there, butthen I also felt like I didn't
belong right.
(15:24):
Oh I was supposed to be in thisspace.
Um, I.
And so I didn't know, know howto make very much meaning out of
that at the time in that, again,like I didn't understand all the
context.
I just knew as a child, I said,well then I need to be over here
at the white school, right?
Because that's school that willgive me the opportunities.
I knew I wanted to go tocollege.
(15:45):
Um, I didn't know what for, butI, you know, I said, it seems
like the only way I'm going toget to where I wanna be in life
is this proximity to these whitekids, right?
I spent a lot of time, Iremember when I moved back to my
mom's house and I went to, aschool in the neighborhood, my
that, and it was my freshmanyear of high school.
I was like, absolutely not.
You know, I need to find anotherschool.
(16:05):
I called the district and IGoogled something online and I
said, I'm, I have a right to agood education.
That's what I told him.
I didn't know what that meantor.
I love this.
You're like, even sure what I'msaying, but I know.
You know, we all have a right toeducation.
And I said, and I'm not gettingthe one that I'm supposed to get
over here.
Um, and so I kept calling.
(16:27):
I kept calling and I houndedthem and they said, okay, we'll
put you in this busing program.
And, uh, or not a busingprogram, they said they, they
had some program where, youknow, if your school that you
were assigned to was failing orbelow a certain level, you could
go to another school
Tami (16:41):
Like a school of choice or something like that.
LT (16:44):
yeah, like you can pick, they have like a few options and
you could.
One.
Um, but you had to get yourselfthere.
So I started, I was living in,we were in Atlanta at the time
and they would, I'd have to takethe MARTA from where we were and
it took me about two and a halfhours to get to school every
day.
And then at some point, youknow, we moved again and I ended
(17:05):
up at this school and they hadthis program called the, the IB
program.
I had no idea what it meant.
But you know, it, it registeredto me that this was an advanced
program.
And so I, I showed up in the IBoffice and I said, I'm supposed
to be in this program, so youneed to enroll me.
But I didn't have any testscores.
They didn't, my, it hadn'ttransferred over yet.
(17:26):
And they're like, oh, I don'tknow if you're supposed, and I'm
like, no, I'm supposed to be inthis program.
You need to put me in IB.
They had me take this test andthey said, okay, you can be an
iv.
Um, and through that, I alwaysthought I was smart, but I knew
I was not taking anybody's AP orIB chemistry.
Okay.
I did know I did know that.
Tami (17:46):
Me either girl.
Me you know, No biology, noChemistry.
LT (17:51):
They did put me in IB bio.
I had to say one of'em.
That was a journey we gotthrough it, but, um, I ended up,
and, and it ties back into BlackPanther and those other things.
I was avoiding IB chemistry whenI was picking my class schedule
and there was this option for IBfilm.
And so I said, okay, you know,put me, put me in IB film.
And, um, I remember the firstday in class, I honestly thought
(18:13):
we were gonna be watchingmovies.
Okay.
Just watching movies.
And I was like, it's gonna be aneasy ai.
Remember I walked in, I droppedmy bag on the floor, I sat back
and the IB film teacher, who wasalso the IB English teacher, Mr.
Aronson, was like, what are youdoing?
And I'm like, waiting for themovie to start, you know, I'm
like a teenager.
for the movie part.
Tami (18:32):
Duh.
LT (18:33):
he's like, your notebook in your pen out now.
And I was like, oh.
Okay.
And so the class was really likea deep dive into like.
Cinema's literature, you know,as an art form.
Um, understanding the themes andthe nuances and just breaking
down this film language and thenmy whole world just changed.
(18:55):
That is what ended up leading meto pursuing a career in film.
But that whole journey, um,which was all necessary to bring
me to that moment of evenadvocating for myself to be put
in, you know, put into the, theprogram, is kind of what set
that pathway.
Um, towards film and thenbrought me back to education
because, once I went started atUSCI was really thinking about,
(19:18):
you know, media and the way itimpacts how at, at the time I
was really focused on how itimpacts how people view, view
black people.
Just having that experience ofbeing the only, I remember when
I was with my grandparents.
My sister and I were the onlytwo black kids in the school up
until that moment.
I had never experienced racism.
Right.
And it took me a little bit toget it.
(19:39):
I remember I had a classmate askme, is your dad in jail?
And I was confused.
I was like, oh no.
Is is your dad in jail?
Because I didn't, I was like,no, girl, you okay?
Tami (19:49):
like do, do, do.
A lot of people in this schoolhave dad's in jail
LT (19:52):
I was like, are y'all good over here?
And I went home to my grandpaand I was like, grandpa.
Why did she ask if my daddy wasin jail and he was like, oh, you
know, let's have that talk.
And then I started noticing justthe ways I was treated
differently.
And then as I, later on when Istarted studying film, I started
recognizing the way media was,putting out these very specific
(20:13):
narratives about the community.
Like I remember watching thehelp with my grandmother, and I
remember I was feelinguncomfortable, right?
In the sense of like.
That just didn't reflect thereality that I was living when I
was with my grandparents, right?
Like my grandfather, worked forthe government.
A really good job for a longtime.
(20:33):
My grandmother was the headnurse, in the, uh, the, the
neonatal unit, like all of thesethings, in a lot of ways, very
cookie cutter.
There was a dog and a big yard,and, someone read to me every
night and I wasn't allowed to gooutside and play until, um, you
know, I, I, you know, read xamount of pages and wrote about
it.
And that's how a lot of my, myfamily operated.
(20:54):
When you looked on tv, youcouldn't find that right.
When I watched, you would thinkthat we were just relegated to
this very specific experienceand not saying that any other
experience that didn't matchthat was not valid.
It absolutely was, but it justdidn't make sense to me that
those were the only experiences.
You know,
Tami (21:12):
The diversity of the experience was missing from the
story.
And the narrative and the, whatpeople could see or have like a
window into.
Right.
Yeah.
LT (21:25):
I felt like that just had such an impact on just how
people reacted to me and, and,and, and honestly how I reacted
to myself Sometimes I just feltlike an alien.
You know, I struggled with somejust, um, internalized hatred of
just not ever feeling likeenough, you know, navigating,
navigating these spaces.
And so when I got to USC, I, Iwas just really, really looking
(21:48):
at media and, and wanting tocreate, you know, in my
storytelling and, and my own,journey as a, as a filmmaker and
a creative, wanting to tellstories that broadened the
perspective and the, you know,and, and the view of what it
meant to exist in, in thiswonderful community that I, that
I come from.
Um, and so I don't know if Ishould pause there,'cause then
(22:09):
that'll take me next until.
Tami (22:11):
Let's pause for a second I, I have of course.
A couple questions because a fewthings you said.
Number one, I am just soimpressed with the amount of
self-advocacy you were able toexercise as a young person that
(22:31):
put you on the path to where youare today.
Um, so kudos to you right, for,for advocating for yourself in
that way.
Is that something that you feltwas just like an inherently part
of your person?
Do you think that was modeledfrom other adults around you?
Or where did that like tenacityto say, no, I'm supposed to be
(22:55):
here and you need to open a spotfor me?
LT (22:59):
Um, I felt like, I think some of.
A, a significant portion of thatcame from, um, seeing how
difficult, the difficultexperiences my mom go through
sometimes of just, you know,being a single mother, um,
raising, raising myself and, andmy sister, and I knew that I, I
(23:27):
wanted.
Life to look different.
I, I knew that there would, bethese roadblocks and I kind of
set, you know, learned or pickedup or, or kind of rationalized
that I, if I, if I knew that Iwanted life to, I.
Ultimately be easier at somepoint that I, I have to go
around the roadblocks and thatwhatever that roadblock was,
(23:50):
whether I interpreted as peopleor, you know, you know, this,
this district that I was in, I,I just had to go around them or
through them or whatever.
Um, and then also with mygrandparents, they just from a
young age.
You know, success wasn't a maybelike in their, in the way they
spoke to me, it wasn't, Iremember, when it, okay, so, uh,
(24:14):
my granddad is a musician.
He plays saxophone and clarinetand, all these things.
And so when, when fifth gradecame, he goes, what instrument
are you gonna play?
Not if you're going to play aninstrument.
And so it never even occurred tome as like.
If there was an option to nottry to acquire this new skill,
it was, um, you know, what, whatskill are you going to acquire?
(24:38):
Um, and so I think that's, youknow, kind of really set it.
And then they would ask methings like, what college are
you going to go to?
Not, and it could have beencommunity college, but you were
gonna do something, you know?
And then I think.
You know, school there, I, Iwent to a lot of schools that I
really felt were failing me andI've always had a very strong
sense of like, justice.
(24:59):
And once I figured out that thiswasn't fair, I said, well,
because it's not fair.
I.
That, you know, told me that I'mgoing to have to work beyond
that and move beyond that.
And you know, the systems andwhen you're a kid, you're saying
these people are not fair.
But know, it's broader thanthat.
(25:19):
It's much larger than that.
But at the time I'm like, y'allare not fair.
Therefore I don't even, I'm noteven taking what you're telling
me.
not realizing it because youdon't know what you're talking
about, so I'm gonna go figure itout.
So I think it's a combinationof, of things.
I'm also the oldest daughter.
I feel like that's gotta havesomething
Tami (25:35):
Oh, it definitely, I'm an oldest daughter, so 100%.
LT (25:39):
I, and I was actually thinking about the other day,
when did that set in?
And I, I would have to sayaround sixth grade when I
started realizing that schoolscould be different.
There was no reason because Igot to this other school that
was more resource and thingslike that.
Um, and, and I didn't choose togo there.
I was, you know, moved to mygrandparents' house.
The therefore, I said if Ididn't do anything to not be
(26:01):
here, then there's no reasonthat I shouldn't be here in
these spaces.
And that just kind of stuck withme.
I, I, the, the world should beavailable to me.
And, and that is, and that was adriving force to, to get me
through school.
Tami (26:16):
Yeah.
Oh, that's so amazing.
I've heard a couple themes thatI think in the things you're
sharing that are reallyimportant.
Um, one of course is.
Like representation matters andis important.
And I've been, you know, we'veseen a lot more of that probably
in the last decade of trying tomake sure that that happens and
(26:37):
that diversity of story that'sbeen historically missing and
also the, the power of how weuse.
Words and speak truth orpossibility into young people.
And whether that is your child,your grandchild, you know,
(26:58):
you're a teacher, whomever youare like.
Your words are powerful to setthe tone for what they may see
as possible.
I, I mean, I have heard so manystories of people talking about
my teacher told me I was afailure, or I was never gonna
make anything in my life, orwhatever, things like that,
right?
And that is detrimental to thepsyche of a young person.
(27:21):
Um, so.
I, I don't know where I wasgonna go with that, but I just
think those two pieces are huge.
Like they work really well intandem.
So not only are we hearing andsaying that these things are
possible diverse.
Persons get to see it and thepotential of it.
(27:45):
You know, whether that'sthrough, fictionalized story or
truth in who's sitting and doingwhat and having a voice in
what's happening in the world.
I don't know.
What do you think about that?
Take on what you've said.
LT (28:00):
There, you know, you hear all the time like teachers
saying, um, you know, you're notgonna make it.
Or these, these comments thatreally sit with a young person
and it kind of takes me back.
I was towards the end of my timeat USC and I had three jobs.
I was taking 18 credits, likeWoo girl.
stressed out trying to pay forlife in California and film
(28:22):
school.
And I remember I had this like,one of the final projects and I,
I made a mistake, in coverage.
And so I like broke this rule towhere when you flip the camera,
if you don't do it the rightway, it, it changes where the
character is on screen and it'sa continuity error.
And I just, I felt I was justmortified.
I was just so down on my myselfand I was already like really
(28:43):
like, you know, sitting withthese thoughts of like, you're
never gonna be good enough.
You're not gonna make it.
And one of my professors told methat I wasn't gonna make it,
that I should really maybe startconsidering something else.
And, you know, it really hurt myfeeling.
I was embarrassed in front of mypeers and Yeah.
but.
Um, again, I was like, you knowwhat, that's a, that's a
(29:04):
roadblock and what do we do withroadblocks, and so I ended up
getting, I ended up emailingthat semester, probably 200
cinematographers, and I justasked them all to please meet me
for coffee.
I just wanted to talk and learnabout what I needed to do to,
get in the industry and make anindustry.
And I met a man named SalvatoreTotino, who I absolutely adore.
For coffee.
And I said, what advice do youhave for, for a young person who
(29:26):
really wants to get in a camera?
So we talked and a couple weekslater he called and he was like,
you know, I really like you.
I really, I really think that,you know, you can, you can do
this.
Do you wanna come work onSpider-Man Homecoming?
Right.
And so I say this because it'ssuch like a, a juxtaposition,
you know, I one, um, figurewho's like, just.
(29:48):
Just throwing a towel and thisother one who is like, you know,
you're, you're still green,you're still learning.
Come on, I'll, I'll, I'll teachyou, you know, I'll help you.
And I got that job onSpider-Man.
I emailed that professor and Isaid, Hey, remember when you
told me that I should just goahead and hang it up in two
weeks?
I start my first job onSpider-Man homecoming.
Dr (30:09):
From media to movement building lts story shows how
creative expression andself-advocacy can challenge
broken systems.
But what happens when we zoomout even further when equity
work scales from the individualto entire districts?
That's where Dwayne McClarycomes in.
In this next segment, Dwayneshares how growing up in South
(30:31):
Carolina's corridor of shameshaped his drive to lead system
level change his reflections onaccess.
Digital equity and practicalimplementation remind us.
Equity isn't just a mindset,it's a strategy.
Dewayne McClary (30:47):
I started really focusing on equity, uh,
really doing my, it'sinteresting we talk about this
now.
So I, I've always been involvedin social justice.
My family kind of forced methere.
I had a aunt, a great, great,great aunt.
Who was like the NAACP for ourarea.
(31:10):
And she was that person fastforward to my high school years.
I became very involved in thelocal chapter of the youth and
college division of NAACPcollege years, uh, became the,
education committee chair forthe state of South Carolina
youth and college division ofNAACP.
And later became the state.
(31:31):
President for the Youth andCollege Division.
So, social justice has alwaysbeen through and through my
blood.
Growing up, um, you know, I hadmany civil rights leaders in my
community that I can name, thatI can reach out to or live down
the street from me, join a marchanytime, any day across the
state of South Carolina.
(31:53):
And so that has been somethingthat I've taken with me even
when I went into education.
Starting out in my early yearsin my hometown, where I saw, you
know, students who look like me,who came from communities, um,
that were, you know, veryimpoverished are, and it was, it
was sad to see, but they didn'thave the access that other.
(32:15):
You know, students across thestate had, we were in what they
call the corridor of shame.
Um, and, if you don't know whatthat is, people looked that up
in the state of South Carolina.
So it's pretty much the mostimpoverished area across the
state.
and maybe on the East Coast.
Um, and so we were struggling.
With, you know, kids that hadnever left the city limits.
(32:37):
we started a boys and girlsclub, and we took them to
Atlanta, Georgia.
We took them to see a baseballgame, we took them to the Coca
Cola Museum, we took them to theAfrican American Museum.
The funny thing is to see theseyoung men and women at the boys
and girls, club that we created.
Um, hanging on the side of thewindows of the bus sale because
they were leaving theWilliamsburg County.
(33:00):
They had never left the county.
Dr (33:02):
Wow.
Dewayne McClary (33:03):
Not even then to even talk about the state.
Like, it was just sad to see,but it was also exciting because
we were given that experience.
So for me, it's always beenabout giving opportunity and
access to individuals that werein my arm's and that kind of led
me to wanting to broaden, youknow, my reach.
(33:25):
Later came to D.
C.
Public Schools, where my eyeswere open even wider.
To the very vast inequitiesthere was, especially when it
came down to, digital equity.
And when I talk about digitalequity, it's like a five prong
stool.
It's like affordable andreliable internet access.
(33:46):
And we're just not talking aboutthis.
I'm talking real broadband,internet access in your home,
access to an appropriate device.
And when I say appropriate,because it depends on the needs,
it could be a laptop, it couldbe a tablet, um, whatever that
need is for that individual.
And then the third stool isdigitized curriculum.
A lot of people, you know, weput these devices in the hands
(34:08):
of kids, but what are they goingto do on it?
Have you digitized thecurriculum?
Have you aligned your curriculumto even meet the needs and most
districts at that time?
I think we're past that.
They were buying the device andthen fixing the curriculum to
align with device when it shouldbe the opposite way.
You should be have yourcurriculum content folks at the
table.
Okay.
Cool.
(34:29):
Finding the device that alignswith your needs.
Like, do you have, you haveprobes?
Do they need to plug into USB orUSB C?
Do you have those peripherals?
Like, it's so many moving partsthat you gotta have someone
that's really thinking about itfrom that standpoint.
we have a different movement, Ithink, now.
We have a movement of banningcell phones.
(34:49):
Get rid of them.
Let me tell you, cell phonesain't going nowhere.
Dr (34:53):
Oh.
Dewayne McClary (34:54):
Like, we, I remember when I, when I was an
instructional technologycoordinator, we were trying to
get teachers to understand thatdevices are here and devices are
here to stay.
And if anything, it's going toget worse.
How do we incorporate thosetools?
How do we cooperate thosedevices into the classroom?
Because at one time before ESSAdollars came and COVID hit, we
(35:17):
didn't have enough devices toget students.
There was no money, there was nofunding for it.
So, you know, we had to utilizethe student device.
It could be the, you know, someof them had iPads, some of them
had cell phones.
We're using those for theKahoots then, of the world.
Um, but now it's like, we'relike, we don't want them, put
them away.
I think that's a slippery slope,and I know, that's a contentious
(35:42):
conversation, but I want peopleto understand where did this
movement come from.
Research it.
Understand where did this cellphone movement come from?
Because sometimes we hitch our,our, our, our bandwagon to
something that we don't knowwhere it came from.
Just, just look and see wherethat, that movement started.
Everybody else is doing it.
So I think I better do it?
too.
(36:02):
It's a good slogan, you know,student engagement, but you're
giving schools, it's like youmaking schools, um, have a,
another thing
Dr (36:12):
Okay, so I think that's an interesting thing to look at,
because you're right.
It's really easy to hitch ourbandwagon to something Dwayne
reminds us that equity work ispractical.
It's about designing systemsthat serve students, not just
about theories that sound goodon paper.
And when we start pulling thosesystems apart, we often uncover
(36:33):
deeper questions about power,identity, and truth.
That's exactly where Dr.
Shelly Jones hold takes us nextin a conversation that pulls no
punches.
Dr.
Shelly challenges us to movebeyond comfort and toward
collective accountability.
From her early experiencesnavigating medical bias to her
unapologetic stance onleadership, she calls us to lead
(36:56):
with both courage and clarity.
Dr. Shelly (36:59):
recognizing that in that diversity of solution, what
works for some people does notwork for other people.
And sometimes those differencesfall along racial lines.
And usually when it falls alongracial lines or um, or
nationality lines, don't get anunbiased approach here in
(37:20):
America.
Mm-hmm.
the pro is one of the biggestproblems, is that we need an
unbiased approach to things likeeducation, like medic medicine
and other, public service andpublic health fields, because we
are different.
Yes, we all may bleed red, butthe, the contents and the makeup
and the genetic, um, uh, impact.
(37:41):
Or the genetic genetics that Ihave are different from anyone
else.
that is not just our raciallines.
That's on an individual level.
When you start looking at sympdifferent symptomatic diseases
and different ways that diseaseshave hit people, when you start
talking about things likeepigenetics with ma, which many
people are not as familiar with,and how the trauma that that
(38:04):
hits people can impact your DNAand therefore travel from mother
to child.
And when we think about theimpact of epigenetics, if it
only takes one generation toshift your DN DNA as it did with
survivors of the Holocaust,imagine what's happened with
those who have survived theAmerican enslavement.
(38:27):
That was, you know, foundationalto this country.
One generation with our Jewishbrethren, we saw genetic impacts
that lessen their ability tohandle stress and trauma.
What do you think happens after400 years and 25 or 30
generations?
Right.
the, the like, the idea thatyes, we are all human beings and
(38:51):
we have, we have the right tohave opportunities is a very,
uh, basic one.
It's one that most people say,yeah, if you work hard, you, you
should have the opportunities,but the reality of what that
actually means and looks like inpractice and what that means for
having to look at your practicedifferently as a teacher.
(39:11):
where I decided to go into, Ihad to teach my kids
differently.
I had kids that came in thatspoke different languages.
Some kids that came in that had,um, learning differences, some
kids that had familial traumaand weren't eating in the
morning or didn't have, youknow, clean clothes.
And, you know, these basicnecessities and those, every one
of those types of children aregoing to learn differently.
(39:34):
It makes sense that they wouldalso need differences in other
things going all the way to themedical field and the workplace.
And if we are abandoning ormisunderstanding or
misinterpreting this idea ofequity being, getting people
what they need, we become partof the problem.
And so Yeah.
just glad that we're continuingthis conversation even amidst
(39:56):
some of the pushback that it'sgetting.
But let's be honest, uh,progress.
Progress has always gottenpushback.
Let's
Dr (40:03):
I was like, this is not new.
I keep saying this to people, Iwas like, look, this is not new.
It may be a little more in ourface for those of us that did
not grow up in the civil rightsera.
Right.
Um, but it was all ineverybody's faces for quite some
time.
Right.
This pushback is not new.
It maybe went under, I don'teven wanna say under the radar,
(40:25):
'cause I don't even really thinkit was,
Dr. Shelly (40:26):
Yeah.
believe that it was there.
I think we really, and I, and Ican confess to this too, like I
want in my heart to believe thatwe are farther ahead than the
civil rights era.
And I think that right now it'sreminded us honey ain't much
changed.
And we were, I think we had abelief that we, it had, Hmm.
(40:47):
it had Yeah.
it.
Dr (40:49):
Yeah.
Dr. Shelly (40:50):
I think that we need to distinguish.
I love the fact that you usedthe word uncomfortable because
you're uncomfortable with it.
It does not mean you are unsafeand therefore need to be on the
defensive
Dr (41:00):
Yes.
Dr. Shelly (41:00):
because you get uncomfortable you may not know
the answer to the question, youmay not, you know, like what
that question is implyingbecause it's something that you
may not want to face.
It's something that iscontradictory to who you believe
you are.
of this can be true and you canstill be uncomfortable and be
(41:21):
safe in the space.
And that there's a differencethough.
And we have misconstrued lack ofsafety for lack of comfort, and
that has caused some huge issuesin our society Yeah.
when we are unsafe, we feel likewe need profe protection.
Somebody needs to come and saveus if we're unsafe.
If you're uncomfortable, thatmeans you need to put your big
(41:42):
girl panties on or your big boypan pants on Yeah.
with whatever is in front ofyou, even if you may be unsure
how or what the result is goingto be.
The those two are very differentsituations and saving people
from uncomfortable situations iswhat has gotten us this far in
this mess that we're in.
(42:02):
We're saving people from havingto answer the hard questions.
Let's answer something like,what if epigenetic trauma has
had an impact on black bodiesand Jewish bodies?
How is that same trauma ofbeating, raping, lynching people
for generations, what has thatdone to your DNA?
What has that done to yourability to feel empathy?
(42:25):
What has that done to yourability to see the world through
different perspectives?
could that be an issue that isnot something for the
minoritized to deal with?
That is something for the largerpopulation, the dominant group
to deal with.
If it's changed my ancestry,what's to say that it hasn't
changed yours?
(42:46):
Yeah.
are uncomfortable topics andconversations for folks.
Whereas when I say have theepigenetic conversation about
what's happened to people whohave been harmed, we can have
that conversation.
Even though it's a littleuncomfortable, folks can Yeah.
in it.
When we start talking about thepeople who have done the harm
and whether or not,'cause thequestion I ask is, if you have
(43:07):
this kind of history, if youhave this kind of, of DNA in
your body.
Are you fit to lead and are youfit to lead people who you, you
or your ancestry havetraditionally seen as less than
human?
Mm-hmm.
should you be doing before youstep into a position of
leadership, especially ofdiverse communities?
(43:29):
See, these are conversationsagain, they make the power
structure very uncomfortable,but they're not unsafe.
You Yeah.
not like the answer.
You got to give.
Dr (43:39):
Yes, yes and no.
A hundred percent and.
I think a way for people thatare new to the work or are
trying to think about how thisapplies to them in
uncomfortableness is wheregrowth happens.
If you aren't uncomfortable,you're not growing.
So if you start a new workoutregimen, Here we go.
(44:03):
right.
to, I admit.
I need to.
I'm, I'm in that space.
Girl, you are speaking mylanguage.
I started Pilates in Februaryand I am in love.
Okay.
So yes.
So I'll just use myself, right?
Like I'm a hundred days into myPilates journey.
There are some things that I cando pretty well, but then they
make some small tweak or I learnsome small new thing and it's
(44:23):
uncomfortable.
My muscles are uncomfortable,but my, the change happens when
I push through the uncomfort.
To get to the next level, and Ihave to continue when the next
uncomfortable moment or feelingcomes continue to push forward.
(44:45):
And I think that is how you canthink about this work when a
moment of uncomfortablenesscomes up, hold on, right?
Like and push through and you'regonna learn something, you're
gonna move to the next, youknow, level, for lack of a
better word.
That's where this work is ajourney, right?
(45:08):
I've been doing this for 25years and I won't say the
conversations make meuncomfortable anymore, but I am
willing to, when I learnsomething or something is
brought up to me that I didn'tknow, I didn't know, Yes.
you can't know everything,right?
Dr. Shelly (45:25):
Dr.
Tami, you are speaking truth tolife in every way.
I mean, um, I didn't really talktoo much about this, but my, my
main job now is as an executiveleadership coach, and Yeah.
the things I say at LeadershipLegacy Consulting, we do the
journey deliberation, which iswhat we say is that this journey
that you are on to liberation,which is a higher level, a
(45:47):
deeper level of freedom, Yeah.
is one thing that's just takingthe shackles off of your body.
And what's physically Iimpacting you?
Oftentimes, or the legal, uh,pieces, the politics, but
liberation is freedom of themind.
Hmm.
is finally free, you're in awhole nother level.
And one of the things that wesay in our work is that the
(46:09):
courageous leadership that youseek and courageous leadership,
which is our signature program,is, um, courageous means to push
through fear.
Leadership being to serve.
You have to push through fear ifyou are going to be of service
to others, and the courageousleadership you seek is on the
other side of the discomfort youcovet and this and, and so, or
(46:32):
the comfort you covet.
Dr (46:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Shelly (46:34):
have to push forward through that discomfort.
I'm gonna say that one more timethe courageous leadership you
seek is on the other side of thecomfort you covet..
When we stop coveting, comfortand embrace at the experience of
discomfort.
'cause oftentimes, GlennSingleton speaks about this in
his agreements for courageousconversations about race, that
(46:56):
if we can truly get to a placewhere we experience discomfort,
I mean, and let's be honest, wedon't like to be uncomfortable.
Dr (47:03):
No.
Dr. Shelly (47:04):
we have fans, we have, you know, water bottles,
we have cushy seats, we do allkinds of things so that we are
not uncomfortable in any way,shape, or form.
Right?
But it's through the discomfortthat the growth happens.
It's through the discomfort thatyou realize what you're really
capable of.
Dr (47:22):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Shelly (47:23):
the discomfort that you realize what you fear was
gonna break, you actually helpedmake you like, these are the
things that you realize.
And if you are always sittinghere trying to push back the
discomfort.
And that's one of thechallenges, and I'm just gonna
say it out loud, it's one of thechallenges of Eurocentric
culture is that Eurocentriccultures have traditionally.
(47:43):
uh, uh, celebrated just success,but not necessarily the journey
or the
Dr (47:49):
Mm.
Dr. Shelly (47:49):
that success.
They celebrate what it is that,the image that you're supposed
to project, but not necessarilyall the struggles that created
that image.
Whereas many collectivistcultures, whereas African
American culture is more of acollectivist culture, we
actually celebrate the struggle.
We wanna put the issue in themiddle of the room and have
everybody talk about it.
Yeah.
(48:10):
wanna see like all the uglysides.
'cause that's where we know wecan see the growth.
Like, oh, you went through that,that, that, and you still, okay,
that's inspirational.
Whereas oftentimes inEurocentric culture, it's, well,
don't tell'em the struggle, thestruggle.
Don't tell'em how hard it wasjust so that you did it right
and you overcame.
That's where that image ofsuccess, uh, versus the journey
(48:33):
to success.
At which do you value more?
We tend to value the journey.
other people tend to value theimage or the power that comes
with it.
And so this discomfort piecethat we're hitting on is a big
issue in the equity worldbecause when everybody is
getting what they need, when youhave to do something different
(48:53):
for somebody else, if yourmindset isn't in a place where
you're saying, I'm willing todo, like if Dr.
Tami needs something and I gottado something different so Dr.
Tami can be successful, thenI'm, I'm actually happy to do
that.
But if I feel like, well, I haveto do something so I'm losing
out so that Dr.
Tami can win, then the mindsetbecause, well, that's not Dr.
(49:14):
Tami's issue.
She gotta deal with that versusit is our issue to be
collectively successful, even atsomething like a podcast, we
have to make sure we are meetingeach other's needs.
If that doesn't happen, then itdoesn't become an enjoyable and
productive experience.
The same thing applies, I wouldargue, in every situation where
(49:35):
you have more than one persontrying to accomplish a task,
Dr (49:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Shelly (49:38):
have to be able to meet one another's needs, even
if that means it's gonna take alittle bit of extra effort on
your part to make sure the nextperson has what they need.
If you see that as a deficit anda problem versus part of the
process and the journey tosuccess, therein lies the
difference.
Dr (49:57):
Dr.
Shelly reminds us thatdiscomfort is not danger, and we
do no one any favors by avoidingthe hard questions.
Her episode, season two, episode13, A Must listen.
Our final guest today is someonewho reminds us that equity
begins in the stories we carry.
(50:17):
In the curriculum, we shapeLeroy Smith's personal journey
from Baltimore's wireneighborhoods to curriculum
design and coaching is powerful.
He teaches us that healing,openness and curiosity are not
just personal qualities, they'releadership essentials.
Leroy Smith (50:35):
Yeah.
I mean, I've taught math foryears and.
It.
I mean, one of the greatestlessons that you can teach
students is about negative andpositive integers.
Is when you're already in debt,you need even more to get into
the positive.
So there's a lot more effort.
And we talk about magnitude onthe number line
Dr (50:53):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (50:54):
like we talk to kids about, like, when you hear
magnitude, most people think ofearthquakes.
Dr (50:58):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (50:59):
The larger the magnitude, the more the impact
is the same thing.
When you're in a ne, when you'rein a negative side of things,
further you are away from.
Equal opportunity or just anygreat opportunity, the more that
you need, the higher themagnitude you need to get
propelled forward.
Um, because you're so muchfurther behind, not because of
(51:20):
anything that you did, it's justbecause of circumstances and the
systems that are in place.
Dr (51:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that way of thinkingabout it too, because that.
For people in how sometimespeople get emotional talking
around some of these processesor systems or what are really
fact, right?
Leroy Smith (51:42):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (51:42):
It's a way to think about it outside in a way that's a little
bit more tangible, I think iswhat I'm trying to say.
Leroy Smith (51:48):
Yeah.
Dr (51:49):
you know, like it doesn't feel like a personal attack.
It just is like, Hey, justreally think about this.
If this happens.
Leroy Smith (51:56):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (51:58):
Um, this is the result of that.
And then how do we mediate that?
Leroy Smith (52:02):
Mm-hmm.
That's also part of my healingjourney.
actually looking at some of my,um, I look at my reflection
journals here or there just tosee like I.
Where I was not that long agowhere I am.
And one of the things I noticedis that although I experienced
quite a bit of trauma justbecause of the circumstances of
where I grew up, and the systemsthat influenced that or caused
(52:23):
that or had some hand in that, Iactually had quite a bit of,
like, I was both a caretaker attoo young of an age to not enjoy
the, the, the, the beauty ofchildhood.
the same time, I was also.
of the family structure, therewas a lot of looseness, loose
structure for me to create myown, um, way.
(52:45):
So I think, as I've gottenolder, I realized that it's just
kind of been a part of mynurture, kind of inadvertently
by my family and also part of mynature to just kind of find my
own way.
And I've done that, I've learnedthat I have to create space for
other people as they're findingtheir own way.
So I think.
That's why, you know, typicallywhen I speak to people, um, I, I
(53:06):
say I can sit down with even whodoes, who doesn't like me or
hate me because I'm open to hearwhere their heart is and where
their, and where it was.
Because I think it's, I thinksometimes the greatest, thing
that diminishes our humanity isjust not understanding.
Like I said, that up and downsthe natural parts of life.
(53:27):
I don't know what down someonewent through that created
whatever they feel or whateverthey believe.
Um, I don't know what up theyexperienced that may have
created that either.
I just know how I show up in theworld and I try my best to
understand other people, sothink having that openness
allows us to actually be incommunity and, and grow.
(53:48):
like I'm, I'm trying to think oflike all the gardeners out there
as gardening season.
you don't like, make enoughspace in your soil for all the
things you're growing, thingswill start growing up on top of
each other and competing forspace and they'll be in
conflict.
So there, I think even Gartersknow kind of, um.
Almost like through, how do yousay, muscle memory, that you
(54:11):
can't crowd everything.
There has to be a level ofopenness just for things to
grow.
So I think that's the space I'min now, and I'm trying to
continue that path.
Dr (54:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The plan.
Plants need a space to breathe
Leroy Smith (54:23):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (54:24):
airflow, right, to be their most productive.
Leroy Smith (54:26):
Yep.
Dr (54:27):
And I think that's a great analogy, right?
Because we as humans also,right, need space and air to
breathe and room
Leroy Smith (54:33):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (54:34):
to to grow.
I love that.
Leroy's perspective speaks tothe heart of what we believe
here at The Equity Hour thatevery person has a story worth
honoring, and every system needsto make space for that story.
You'll find his full episode inseason two, episode 12.
(54:54):
I hope this highlight episodeleft you energized and inspired
from Megan's vulnerability toKatie's humility.
To LT's Fire, Dwayne's SystemsLens, and Dr.
Shelley's Truth Telling andLeroy's Reflection.
We've seen equity in motion,real stories, real strategies,
and a shared reminder that ourwork is just the beginning.
(55:16):
If you wanna hear more, be sureto check out the full
interviews.
You'll find direct links in theshow notes.
Or just search the equity houron your favorite podcast
provider.
And if this episode resonatedwith you, share it with your
community.
Leave us a review or tag us onsocial to join in the
conversation.
Until next time, I'm Dr.
Tami.
(55:37):
Thank you for being in communitywith me.
And remember, use your voicetoday.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Equity
Hour podcast with me, Dr.
Tami, and this special Q1highlight episode.
We are revisiting powerfulconversations that lit up our
podcast.
This year you'll hear wisdomfrom leaders who are
re-imagining education,centering justice, and walking
(00:23):
the talk of transformationalleadership.
Whether you're new or a longtimelistener, this is your chance to
hear the moments that made uspause, reflect, and push
forward.
We begin today's episode withSegment one with Megan
(00:44):
Fuciarelli and her episode ofEvery Voice Matters.
During this episode, Meganreminded us that leadership
rooted in humility and sharedpower is not a weakness.
It is a strength.
Her courage to center studentvoice and her journey toward
creating safe spaces for allcontinues to resonate deeply.
(01:08):
Let's hear a clip from thatepisode.
Megan Fuciarelli (01:14):
And then when I went off to college, I
experienced significant cultureshock.
I had no idea what I was walkinginto.
I was placed in theinternational dorm and being
placed in the internationaldorm, being surrounded by people
who did not look like me, spokelanguages I didn't understand,
ate food I had never eventhought of.
(01:35):
Like, it was, I was so confused.
Dr (01:38):
Your eyes were probably popping out of your head.
Did you choose the internationaldorm or you just happened to get
placed there?
Megan Fuciarelli (01:45):
No, I think it was one of those issues of my
surname.
Fuciarelli I don't know if theythought I was from a te or, from
Italy, or I did not choose it.
I was placed there.
My parents were afraid for me.
Because it was, like, Oh mygosh, what is she gonna do?
And then when we found out I hadone roommate from Russia, which
(02:07):
At that point, all I knew aboutRussia was the USSR and Mikhail
Gorbachev.
Like I didn't know anythingabout.
anything.
I was so clueless, but oneroommate was from Russia and
another roommate was from Japan.
And I just remember my parentswere scared, not because they
were hateful people, but theywere also very sheltered, didn't
understand.
(02:27):
And their understanding ofdiversity was fear.
And yeah, being placed in theinternational dorm was a culture
shock moment.
I made a lot of missteps earlyin my journey, uh, went into
education.
And that's really where itstarted, was I started as a
teacher wanting to make surethat curriculum represented all
(02:47):
identities.
Um, I was really angry when Ifound out later in life that
Thanksgiving wasn't the way Iwas taught.
Um, like I was angry.
I was like, why did they lie tome?
And then I felt horrible becauseas a teacher I taught
Thanksgiving incorrectly becausethat's what I was taught.
So, I have to ask this question.
(03:08):
Like, how did you, because I hadto think back of how I even
learned the accurate depictionof Thanksgiving.
I wasn't taught it in school,right?
Like, I actually perpetuated theissue by teaching it incorrectly
for many years.
Where did you learn or how didyou learn about what actually
happened on Thanksgiving?
Was it something you were taughtin elementary school?
(03:28):
Was it something your parentstaught you?
How did you learn?
Dr (03:32):
neither one of those.
Um, really the.
I'll think I'll just say thecatalyst for me thinking about
that way when it comes tocurriculum and education and
what we are are not taughtreally goes back to, one of my
undergraduate professors.
(03:53):
I can't I, I, I keep feelinglike it was an extra project
that I've decided to do for somereason, but I don't can't
remember the details.
But anyway, I read dreamkeepers.
So Dr Anna Floriani was myprofessor.
She was amazing.
But we talked so much aboutperspective.
Cause she did my ELA methodscourse, and I think that was
really the catalyst, um, likethis aha moment for me and my
(04:18):
education.
Like, I always kind of knew it.
But it just made it very real.
And then so from that point on,it really affected how I thought
about the perspectives or lackthereof that were available to
me as an educator.
How do I bring those in?
and just really kind of set thetone.
(04:38):
For everything else
Megan Fuciarelli (04:40):
Okay.
Dr (04:41):
So, thank you, Dr.
Floriani and Dr.
Gloria Ladson Billings forwriting the book.
Megan Fuciarelli (04:48):
Right.
Dr (04:49):
So, I really don't know, but yeah, so I've been looking at,
you know, diverse texts andperspectives since I was a, I
call myself a young little pup.
Megan Fuciarelli (05:01):
Yeah, my college experience did not do
that.
Like there was no teaching ofhow to teach from different
perspectives.
I had a phenomenal professorlike you that Dr.
Ivy Goduka.
She is the person who opened upmy eyes to diversity work and
really understanding socialjustice and what we call it a
(05:23):
squared Jedi work.
Um, she was from South Africa.
I've tried for 30 years to getin touch with her like, I need
you.
Where are you?
No one can find her.
I've put please out on socialmedia.
I put her in my book, like,please, if you're reading this,
I need to find you.
Um, but it wasn't aboutperspectives and teaching and I
(05:43):
never got that.
And I remember.
It was when I went to my owndiversity training where it was
one of the first trainings Iwent to and I was talking to
some people there and someonewas reading lies my teacher told
me
Dr (05:58):
Oh, mm hmm.
Megan Fuciarelli (05:59):
I found so much stuff.
Like that was the book that mademe angry I was like what?
Why was I taught incorrectly?
What?
Dr (06:07):
You know what?
I had to read that book as anundergraduate too.
Maybe that.
Megan Fuciarelli (06:13):
Yeah, I I wasn't I had graduated at that
point when I read it because Iremember I had taught
Thanksgiving like I did thetraditional all right half the
class is going to make the hatand half the class is going to
make the feather man like Igenuinely did that right and I
share that story when I do mywork because there are still
(06:33):
classrooms across the U.
S.
Who do that to this day?
And I'm like, look, I've beenthere.
Like, I understand yourintention not to harm anyone.
You don't know any better.
But now I'm here to tell youthat's not accurate.
And you need to do somethingdifferent.
Like I'm
Dr (06:47):
Like the hand where this
Megan Fuciarelli (06:49):
Yeah.
Dr (06:49):
the turkey and then this side is the Native American with
the feathers.
Yes.
Megan Fuciarelli (06:57):
Like Many of us either did that as a child or
maybe even perpetuated it byteaching it as teachers.
Like, I was one of thoseteachers.
I remember teaching thematicunits about Africa.
Like, it's this monolith ofpeople.
Like, I did so many horriblethings.
And now here I am doing the workfull time, and it's part of that
(07:20):
journey.
Like, we have to be human withourselves and acknowledge that
there's going to be growth.
Every single day, I learnsomething new of, Ooh, ooh, the
origination of that's probablynot something I want to
perpetuate, so let's change myvocabulary slightly.
Dr (07:35):
yes.
And I think that's such animportant point, Megan, is that
I feel like.
A lot of people think that thisis like a boom, like a one and
done, or, you know, we justshowed up like this into the
social justice work.
And that's just, I always say,like, it is an ongoing learning
(07:58):
trajectory.
Like there, to me, there'salways something to learn.
I find out all the time, like,I'm trying to think of one off
the top of my head, but I can't,but there was some word I was
like, I just bleh out andthey're like, Oh, do you know
that's rooted in?
I was like, I did not, but I amso glad you told me.
Megan's story reminds us thattransformation begins with
(08:20):
discomfort, but through honestreflection, it leads to deep and
lasting impact.
Listen to the full episode inseason two, episode three.
Our next segment comes from ourguest from our season two,
episode nine.
(08:41):
And it is Katie O'Malley Katie'shonesty and humility cut
through.
It's easy to assume you need allthe answers to show up for
justice, but as she shows usshowing up with curiosity and
the willingness to be changed bywhat you learn, that's a form of
courage.
(09:04):
Let's take a listen to her clip.
Katie OMalley (09:09):
Honestly, if I were to go back all the way to
when I was five years old, I, Ithink it started there, which
You know, as someone whoidentifies and moves through the
world as a white cisgender womanwho came from a middle class
Catholic family in the suburbsto think my equity and social
(09:31):
justice journey started at fiveseems crazy.
However one of the things interms of equity that was very
apparent to me growing up wasthe difference in socio economic
status across my family being inthe suburbs coming into the city
to visit family.
There was just difference andthere was disparity and really
(09:54):
trying to understand and notjudge that as a child and having
a mother that was.
You know, a single mom raisedthree kiddos.
This was even before I came intothe picture working three
different jobs to try to makeends meet right before she
started living this differentlife after she met my father.
(10:17):
And so having had herperspective from, from such a
young age was, was reallyhelpful for me, but I was also
raised Catholic and I will tellyou up until a certain age,
there's some really goodmessages.
There that are all really rootedin social justice.
Dr (10:34):
We're to come back to up to a certain age.
Katie OMalley (10:37):
We, we'll come back to it.
So, you know, there was that inthis idea of we're all, and I,
and I say this recognizing the,the, the colorblindness that.
We'll come out of the same andwe're all the same, right?
So we need to treat each otherwith dig Every person deserves
dignity and respect and to livea full life.
(10:59):
And it always just seemed soEasy for me.
And as I grew older, I didn'tunderstand why it was so
difficult for other people.
Especially as we started to comeinto our own social identities,
personal identities some ofwhich have more unearned
(11:21):
advantage and power than others.
And I can remember.
And this is probably why Istarted my career where I did in
the political and nonprofitarena.
I'm just moving through theworld feeling this immense sense
of guilt, all the time foreverything that I had and never
(11:41):
being able to put words to itwhich I later learned white
guilt, white privilege but itwasn't until I hit graduate
school at 30 that I actually hada vocabulary to describe why I
chose the career path that Ichose.
I thought I'd been given so muchand now I have to It's my duty
to return it, and it's my turnto sacrifice in these ways and
(12:04):
working, my gosh, working at theInnocence Project and then the
AIDS Foundation of Chicagohelping folks who were convicted
for crimes that they didn'tcommit, spending 10, 15, 20, 30,
40 years in prison, sometimes ondeath row, and to see it.
(12:26):
The stark contrast in theclientele, it was.
99.
9 percent people of color, menof color, right?
We're our clients and reallystarting to ask the questions
like, how did this happen?
No one covered this in collegewith me.
What, what is this?
Obviously there's a systemichappening.
(12:47):
Now this is 2004, 2005.
So the literature is obviouslythere, but not something I had
been exposed to.
So kept doing the work in NewYork City.
And then when I got to the AIDSFoundation of Chicago, a brand
new set of lessons and learningsand understanding about the LGBT
(13:08):
community and the struggles forequity that, that existed in and
continue to persist there aswell.
Especially when we look at.
The HIV AIDS epidemic.
So I, I guess I could keepgoing.
But I, I think to the, thequestion about my equity
journey.
So much of it is rooted in thechoices I've made in my career.
(13:32):
I'm really being willing toexpose myself to folks that have
had different lived experiencesthan me and not trying to come
in as.
Some I'm gonna mess this up the,the white person on the horse
trying to solve
Dr (13:50):
savior.
Katie OMalley (13:51):
savior.
Yeah, I'm just coming in withcultural humility like I didn't,
I don't know and it wasn't myplace to know I was there to be
of service and to, to learn
Dr (14:04):
Katie reminded us that equity work is deeply personal
and that brings us to LaTerrian,Officer-McIntosh or LT, whose
journey from USC Film School toSouth Dakota is a testament to
what happens when we refuse toaccept the status quo.
From calling the districtherself as a teenager to
enrolling in an IB film class toavoid chemistry, and then
(14:28):
landing a job on Spider-Manhomecoming.
LT's story is one ofself-efficacy, creative
resistance, and using media toreframe the narrative.
LT (14:40):
With my grandparents, it wasn't private school.
It was just school and my mom,it was just school.
And so.
Around sixth grade, and that'swhen I, um, started going to
school over at my grandparents'house is when I realized that
there was a major difference andthe difference.
And, and you know, when you're,when you're your child, you're
not, you don't understand all ofthese big historical things all
(15:03):
different factors.
I said, this is the black schooland over here where all the kids
look like me.
We're not actually learningvery, very much.
And the, the lunch is actuallynot very good.
Teachers are overwhelmed and wedon't have books.
And over here I have the time ofmy life in the sense of like all
the resources are there, butthen I also felt like I didn't
belong right.
(15:24):
Oh I was supposed to be in thisspace.
Um, I.
And so I didn't know, know howto make very much meaning out of
that at the time in that, again,like I didn't understand all the
context.
I just knew as a child, I said,well then I need to be over here
at the white school, right?
Because that's school that willgive me the opportunities.
I knew I wanted to go tocollege.
(15:45):
Um, I didn't know what for, butI, you know, I said, it seems
like the only way I'm going toget to where I wanna be in life
is this proximity to these whitekids, right?
I spent a lot of time, Iremember when I moved back to my
mom's house and I went to, aschool in the neighborhood, my
that, and it was my freshmanyear of high school.
I was like, absolutely not.
You know, I need to find anotherschool.
(16:05):
I called the district and IGoogled something online and I
said, I'm, I have a right to agood education.
That's what I told him.
I didn't know what that meantor.
I love this.
You're like, even sure what I'msaying, but I know.
You know, we all have a right toeducation.
And I said, and I'm not gettingthe one that I'm supposed to get
over here.
Um, and so I kept calling.
(16:27):
I kept calling and I houndedthem and they said, okay, we'll
put you in this busing program.
And, uh, or not a busingprogram, they said they, they
had some program where, youknow, if your school that you
were assigned to was failing orbelow a certain level, you could
go to another school
Tami (16:41):
Like a school of choice or something like that.
LT (16:44):
yeah, like you can pick, they have like a few options and
you could.
One.
Um, but you had to get yourselfthere.
So I started, I was living in,we were in Atlanta at the time
and they would, I'd have to takethe MARTA from where we were and
it took me about two and a halfhours to get to school every
day.
And then at some point, youknow, we moved again and I ended
(17:05):
up at this school and they hadthis program called the, the IB
program.
I had no idea what it meant.
But you know, it, it registeredto me that this was an advanced
program.
And so I, I showed up in the IBoffice and I said, I'm supposed
to be in this program, so youneed to enroll me.
But I didn't have any testscores.
They didn't, my, it hadn'ttransferred over yet.
(17:26):
And they're like, oh, I don'tknow if you're supposed, and I'm
like, no, I'm supposed to be inthis program.
You need to put me in IB.
They had me take this test andthey said, okay, you can be an
iv.
Um, and through that, I alwaysthought I was smart, but I knew
I was not taking anybody's AP orIB chemistry.
Okay.
I did know I did know that.
Tami (17:46):
Me either girl.
Me you know, No biology, noChemistry.
LT (17:51):
They did put me in IB bio.
I had to say one of'em.
That was a journey we gotthrough it, but, um, I ended up,
and, and it ties back into BlackPanther and those other things.
I was avoiding IB chemistry whenI was picking my class schedule
and there was this option for IBfilm.
And so I said, okay, you know,put me, put me in IB film.
And, um, I remember the firstday in class, I honestly thought
(18:13):
we were gonna be watchingmovies.
Okay.
Just watching movies.
And I was like, it's gonna be aneasy ai.
Remember I walked in, I droppedmy bag on the floor, I sat back
and the IB film teacher, who wasalso the IB English teacher, Mr.
Aronson, was like, what are youdoing?
And I'm like, waiting for themovie to start, you know, I'm
like a teenager.
for the movie part.
Tami (18:32):
Duh.
LT (18:33):
he's like, your notebook in your pen out now.
And I was like, oh.
Okay.
And so the class was really likea deep dive into like.
Cinema's literature, you know,as an art form.
Um, understanding the themes andthe nuances and just breaking
down this film language and thenmy whole world just changed.
(18:55):
That is what ended up leading meto pursuing a career in film.
But that whole journey, um,which was all necessary to bring
me to that moment of evenadvocating for myself to be put
in, you know, put into the, theprogram, is kind of what set
that pathway.
Um, towards film and thenbrought me back to education
because, once I went started atUSCI was really thinking about,
(19:18):
you know, media and the way itimpacts how at, at the time I
was really focused on how itimpacts how people view, view
black people.
Just having that experience ofbeing the only, I remember when
I was with my grandparents.
My sister and I were the onlytwo black kids in the school up
until that moment.
I had never experienced racism.
Right.
And it took me a little bit toget it.
(19:39):
I remember I had a classmate askme, is your dad in jail?
And I was confused.
I was like, oh no.
Is is your dad in jail?
Because I didn't, I was like,no, girl, you okay?
Tami (19:49):
like do, do, do.
A lot of people in this schoolhave dad's in jail
LT (19:52):
I was like, are y'all good over here?
And I went home to my grandpaand I was like, grandpa.
Why did she ask if my daddy wasin jail and he was like, oh, you
know, let's have that talk.
And then I started noticing justthe ways I was treated
differently.
And then as I, later on when Istarted studying film, I started
recognizing the way media was,putting out these very specific
(20:13):
narratives about the community.
Like I remember watching thehelp with my grandmother, and I
remember I was feelinguncomfortable, right?
In the sense of like.
That just didn't reflect thereality that I was living when I
was with my grandparents, right?
Like my grandfather, worked forthe government.
A really good job for a longtime.
(20:33):
My grandmother was the headnurse, in the, uh, the, the
neonatal unit, like all of thesethings, in a lot of ways, very
cookie cutter.
There was a dog and a big yard,and, someone read to me every
night and I wasn't allowed to gooutside and play until, um, you
know, I, I, you know, read xamount of pages and wrote about
it.
And that's how a lot of my, myfamily operated.
(20:54):
When you looked on tv, youcouldn't find that right.
When I watched, you would thinkthat we were just relegated to
this very specific experienceand not saying that any other
experience that didn't matchthat was not valid.
It absolutely was, but it justdidn't make sense to me that
those were the only experiences.
You know,
Tami (21:12):
The diversity of the experience was missing from the
story.
And the narrative and the, whatpeople could see or have like a
window into.
Right.
Yeah.
LT (21:25):
I felt like that just had such an impact on just how
people reacted to me and, and,and, and honestly how I reacted
to myself Sometimes I just feltlike an alien.
You know, I struggled with somejust, um, internalized hatred of
just not ever feeling likeenough, you know, navigating,
navigating these spaces.
And so when I got to USC, I, Iwas just really, really looking
(21:48):
at media and, and wanting tocreate, you know, in my
storytelling and, and my own,journey as a, as a filmmaker and
a creative, wanting to tellstories that broadened the
perspective and the, you know,and, and the view of what it
meant to exist in, in thiswonderful community that I, that
I come from.
Um, and so I don't know if Ishould pause there,'cause then
(22:09):
that'll take me next until.
Tami (22:11):
Let's pause for a second I, I have of course.
A couple questions because a fewthings you said.
Number one, I am just soimpressed with the amount of
self-advocacy you were able toexercise as a young person that
(22:31):
put you on the path to where youare today.
Um, so kudos to you right, for,for advocating for yourself in
that way.
Is that something that you feltwas just like an inherently part
of your person?
Do you think that was modeledfrom other adults around you?
Or where did that like tenacityto say, no, I'm supposed to be
(22:55):
here and you need to open a spotfor me?
LT (22:59):
Um, I felt like, I think some of.
A, a significant portion of thatcame from, um, seeing how
difficult, the difficultexperiences my mom go through
sometimes of just, you know,being a single mother, um,
raising, raising myself and, andmy sister, and I knew that I, I
(23:27):
wanted.
Life to look different.
I, I knew that there would, bethese roadblocks and I kind of
set, you know, learned or pickedup or, or kind of rationalized
that I, if I, if I knew that Iwanted life to, I.
Ultimately be easier at somepoint that I, I have to go
around the roadblocks and thatwhatever that roadblock was,
(23:50):
whether I interpreted as peopleor, you know, you know, this,
this district that I was in, I,I just had to go around them or
through them or whatever.
Um, and then also with mygrandparents, they just from a
young age.
You know, success wasn't a maybelike in their, in the way they
spoke to me, it wasn't, Iremember, when it, okay, so, uh,
(24:14):
my granddad is a musician.
He plays saxophone and clarinetand, all these things.
And so when, when fifth gradecame, he goes, what instrument
are you gonna play?
Not if you're going to play aninstrument.
And so it never even occurred tome as like.
If there was an option to nottry to acquire this new skill,
it was, um, you know, what, whatskill are you going to acquire?
(24:38):
Um, and so I think that's, youknow, kind of really set it.
And then they would ask methings like, what college are
you going to go to?
Not, and it could have beencommunity college, but you were
gonna do something, you know?
And then I think.
You know, school there, I, Iwent to a lot of schools that I
really felt were failing me andI've always had a very strong
sense of like, justice.
(24:59):
And once I figured out that thiswasn't fair, I said, well,
because it's not fair.
I.
That, you know, told me that I'mgoing to have to work beyond
that and move beyond that.
And you know, the systems andwhen you're a kid, you're saying
these people are not fair.
But know, it's broader thanthat.
(25:19):
It's much larger than that.
But at the time I'm like, y'allare not fair.
Therefore I don't even, I'm noteven taking what you're telling
me.
not realizing it because youdon't know what you're talking
about, so I'm gonna go figure itout.
So I think it's a combinationof, of things.
I'm also the oldest daughter.
I feel like that's gotta havesomething
Tami (25:35):
Oh, it definitely, I'm an oldest daughter, so 100%.
LT (25:39):
I, and I was actually thinking about the other day,
when did that set in?
And I, I would have to sayaround sixth grade when I
started realizing that schoolscould be different.
There was no reason because Igot to this other school that
was more resource and thingslike that.
Um, and, and I didn't choose togo there.
I was, you know, moved to mygrandparents' house.
The therefore, I said if Ididn't do anything to not be
(26:01):
here, then there's no reasonthat I shouldn't be here in
these spaces.
And that just kind of stuck withme.
I, I, the, the world should beavailable to me.
And, and that is, and that was adriving force to, to get me
through school.
Tami (26:16):
Yeah.
Oh, that's so amazing.
I've heard a couple themes thatI think in the things you're
sharing that are reallyimportant.
Um, one of course is.
Like representation matters andis important.
And I've been, you know, we'veseen a lot more of that probably
in the last decade of trying tomake sure that that happens and
(26:37):
that diversity of story that'sbeen historically missing and
also the, the power of how weuse.
Words and speak truth orpossibility into young people.
And whether that is your child,your grandchild, you know,
(26:58):
you're a teacher, whomever youare like.
Your words are powerful to setthe tone for what they may see
as possible.
I, I mean, I have heard so manystories of people talking about
my teacher told me I was afailure, or I was never gonna
make anything in my life, orwhatever, things like that,
right?
And that is detrimental to thepsyche of a young person.
(27:21):
Um, so.
I, I don't know where I wasgonna go with that, but I just
think those two pieces are huge.
Like they work really well intandem.
So not only are we hearing andsaying that these things are
possible diverse.
Persons get to see it and thepotential of it.
(27:45):
You know, whether that'sthrough, fictionalized story or
truth in who's sitting and doingwhat and having a voice in
what's happening in the world.
I don't know.
What do you think about that?
Take on what you've said.
LT (28:00):
There, you know, you hear all the time like teachers
saying, um, you know, you're notgonna make it.
Or these, these comments thatreally sit with a young person
and it kind of takes me back.
I was towards the end of my timeat USC and I had three jobs.
I was taking 18 credits, likeWoo girl.
stressed out trying to pay forlife in California and film
(28:22):
school.
And I remember I had this like,one of the final projects and I,
I made a mistake, in coverage.
And so I like broke this rule towhere when you flip the camera,
if you don't do it the rightway, it, it changes where the
character is on screen and it'sa continuity error.
And I just, I felt I was justmortified.
I was just so down on my myselfand I was already like really
(28:43):
like, you know, sitting withthese thoughts of like, you're
never gonna be good enough.
You're not gonna make it.
And one of my professors told methat I wasn't gonna make it,
that I should really maybe startconsidering something else.
And, you know, it really hurt myfeeling.
I was embarrassed in front of mypeers and Yeah.
but.
Um, again, I was like, you knowwhat, that's a, that's a
(29:04):
roadblock and what do we do withroadblocks, and so I ended up
getting, I ended up emailingthat semester, probably 200
cinematographers, and I justasked them all to please meet me
for coffee.
I just wanted to talk and learnabout what I needed to do to,
get in the industry and make anindustry.
And I met a man named SalvatoreTotino, who I absolutely adore.
For coffee.
And I said, what advice do youhave for, for a young person who
(29:26):
really wants to get in a camera?
So we talked and a couple weekslater he called and he was like,
you know, I really like you.
I really, I really think that,you know, you can, you can do
this.
Do you wanna come work onSpider-Man Homecoming?
Right.
And so I say this because it'ssuch like a, a juxtaposition,
you know, I one, um, figurewho's like, just.
(29:48):
Just throwing a towel and thisother one who is like, you know,
you're, you're still green,you're still learning.
Come on, I'll, I'll, I'll teachyou, you know, I'll help you.
And I got that job onSpider-Man.
I emailed that professor and Isaid, Hey, remember when you
told me that I should just goahead and hang it up in two
weeks?
I start my first job onSpider-Man homecoming.
Dr (30:09):
From media to movement building lts story shows how
creative expression andself-advocacy can challenge
broken systems.
But what happens when we zoomout even further when equity
work scales from the individualto entire districts?
That's where Dwayne McClarycomes in.
In this next segment, Dwayneshares how growing up in South
(30:31):
Carolina's corridor of shameshaped his drive to lead system
level change his reflections onaccess.
Digital equity and practicalimplementation remind us.
Equity isn't just a mindset,it's a strategy.
Dewayne McClary (30:47):
I started really focusing on equity, uh,
really doing my, it'sinteresting we talk about this
now.
So I, I've always been involvedin social justice.
My family kind of forced methere.
I had a aunt, a great, great,great aunt.
Who was like the NAACP for ourarea.
(31:10):
And she was that person fastforward to my high school years.
I became very involved in thelocal chapter of the youth and
college division of NAACPcollege years, uh, became the,
education committee chair forthe state of South Carolina
youth and college division ofNAACP.
And later became the state.
(31:31):
President for the Youth andCollege Division.
So, social justice has alwaysbeen through and through my
blood.
Growing up, um, you know, I hadmany civil rights leaders in my
community that I can name, thatI can reach out to or live down
the street from me, join a marchanytime, any day across the
state of South Carolina.
(31:53):
And so that has been somethingthat I've taken with me even
when I went into education.
Starting out in my early yearsin my hometown, where I saw, you
know, students who look like me,who came from communities, um,
that were, you know, veryimpoverished are, and it was, it
was sad to see, but they didn'thave the access that other.
(32:15):
You know, students across thestate had, we were in what they
call the corridor of shame.
Um, and, if you don't know whatthat is, people looked that up
in the state of South Carolina.
So it's pretty much the mostimpoverished area across the
state.
and maybe on the East Coast.
Um, and so we were struggling.
With, you know, kids that hadnever left the city limits.
(32:37):
we started a boys and girlsclub, and we took them to
Atlanta, Georgia.
We took them to see a baseballgame, we took them to the Coca
Cola Museum, we took them to theAfrican American Museum.
The funny thing is to see theseyoung men and women at the boys
and girls, club that we created.
Um, hanging on the side of thewindows of the bus sale because
they were leaving theWilliamsburg County.
(33:00):
They had never left the county.
Dr (33:02):
Wow.
Dewayne McClary (33:03):
Not even then to even talk about the state.
Like, it was just sad to see,but it was also exciting because
we were given that experience.
So for me, it's always beenabout giving opportunity and
access to individuals that werein my arm's and that kind of led
me to wanting to broaden, youknow, my reach.
(33:25):
Later came to D.
C.
Public Schools, where my eyeswere open even wider.
To the very vast inequitiesthere was, especially when it
came down to, digital equity.
And when I talk about digitalequity, it's like a five prong
stool.
It's like affordable andreliable internet access.
(33:46):
And we're just not talking aboutthis.
I'm talking real broadband,internet access in your home,
access to an appropriate device.
And when I say appropriate,because it depends on the needs,
it could be a laptop, it couldbe a tablet, um, whatever that
need is for that individual.
And then the third stool isdigitized curriculum.
A lot of people, you know, weput these devices in the hands
(34:08):
of kids, but what are they goingto do on it?
Have you digitized thecurriculum?
Have you aligned your curriculumto even meet the needs and most
districts at that time?
I think we're past that.
They were buying the device andthen fixing the curriculum to
align with device when it shouldbe the opposite way.
You should be have yourcurriculum content folks at the
table.
Okay.
Cool.
(34:29):
Finding the device that alignswith your needs.
Like, do you have, you haveprobes?
Do they need to plug into USB orUSB C?
Do you have those peripherals?
Like, it's so many moving partsthat you gotta have someone
that's really thinking about itfrom that standpoint.
we have a different movement, Ithink, now.
We have a movement of banningcell phones.
(34:49):
Get rid of them.
Let me tell you, cell phonesain't going nowhere.
Dr (34:53):
Oh.
Dewayne McClary (34:54):
Like, we, I remember when I, when I was an
instructional technologycoordinator, we were trying to
get teachers to understand thatdevices are here and devices are
here to stay.
And if anything, it's going toget worse.
How do we incorporate thosetools?
How do we cooperate thosedevices into the classroom?
Because at one time before ESSAdollars came and COVID hit, we
(35:17):
didn't have enough devices toget students.
There was no money, there was nofunding for it.
So, you know, we had to utilizethe student device.
It could be the, you know, someof them had iPads, some of them
had cell phones.
We're using those for theKahoots then, of the world.
Um, but now it's like, we'relike, we don't want them, put
them away.
I think that's a slippery slope,and I know, that's a contentious
(35:42):
conversation, but I want peopleto understand where did this
movement come from.
Research it.
Understand where did this cellphone movement come from?
Because sometimes we hitch our,our, our, our bandwagon to
something that we don't knowwhere it came from.
Just, just look and see wherethat, that movement started.
Everybody else is doing it.
So I think I better do it?
too.
(36:02):
It's a good slogan, you know,student engagement, but you're
giving schools, it's like youmaking schools, um, have a,
another thing
Dr (36:12):
Okay, so I think that's an interesting thing to look at,
because you're right.
It's really easy to hitch ourbandwagon to something Dwayne
reminds us that equity work ispractical.
It's about designing systemsthat serve students, not just
about theories that sound goodon paper.
And when we start pulling thosesystems apart, we often uncover
(36:33):
deeper questions about power,identity, and truth.
That's exactly where Dr.
Shelly Jones hold takes us nextin a conversation that pulls no
punches.
Dr.
Shelly challenges us to movebeyond comfort and toward
collective accountability.
From her early experiencesnavigating medical bias to her
unapologetic stance onleadership, she calls us to lead
(36:56):
with both courage and clarity.
Dr. Shelly (36:59):
recognizing that in that diversity of solution, what
works for some people does notwork for other people.
And sometimes those differencesfall along racial lines.
And usually when it falls alongracial lines or um, or
nationality lines, don't get anunbiased approach here in
(37:20):
America.
Mm-hmm.
the pro is one of the biggestproblems, is that we need an
unbiased approach to things likeeducation, like medic medicine
and other, public service andpublic health fields, because we
are different.
Yes, we all may bleed red, butthe, the contents and the makeup
and the genetic, um, uh, impact.
(37:41):
Or the genetic genetics that Ihave are different from anyone
else.
that is not just our raciallines.
That's on an individual level.
When you start looking at sympdifferent symptomatic diseases
and different ways that diseaseshave hit people, when you start
talking about things likeepigenetics with ma, which many
people are not as familiar with,and how the trauma that that
(38:04):
hits people can impact your DNAand therefore travel from mother
to child.
And when we think about theimpact of epigenetics, if it
only takes one generation toshift your DN DNA as it did with
survivors of the Holocaust,imagine what's happened with
those who have survived theAmerican enslavement.
(38:27):
That was, you know, foundationalto this country.
One generation with our Jewishbrethren, we saw genetic impacts
that lessen their ability tohandle stress and trauma.
What do you think happens after400 years and 25 or 30
generations?
Right.
the, the like, the idea thatyes, we are all human beings and
(38:51):
we have, we have the right tohave opportunities is a very,
uh, basic one.
It's one that most people say,yeah, if you work hard, you, you
should have the opportunities,but the reality of what that
actually means and looks like inpractice and what that means for
having to look at your practicedifferently as a teacher.
(39:11):
where I decided to go into, Ihad to teach my kids
differently.
I had kids that came in thatspoke different languages.
Some kids that came in that had,um, learning differences, some
kids that had familial traumaand weren't eating in the
morning or didn't have, youknow, clean clothes.
And, you know, these basicnecessities and those, every one
of those types of children aregoing to learn differently.
(39:34):
It makes sense that they wouldalso need differences in other
things going all the way to themedical field and the workplace.
And if we are abandoning ormisunderstanding or
misinterpreting this idea ofequity being, getting people
what they need, we become partof the problem.
And so Yeah.
just glad that we're continuingthis conversation even amidst
(39:56):
some of the pushback that it'sgetting.
But let's be honest, uh,progress.
Progress has always gottenpushback.
Let's
Dr (40:03):
I was like, this is not new.
I keep saying this to people, Iwas like, look, this is not new.
It may be a little more in ourface for those of us that did
not grow up in the civil rightsera.
Right.
Um, but it was all ineverybody's faces for quite some
time.
Right.
This pushback is not new.
It maybe went under, I don'teven wanna say under the radar,
(40:25):
'cause I don't even really thinkit was,
Dr. Shelly (40:26):
Yeah.
believe that it was there.
I think we really, and I, and Ican confess to this too, like I
want in my heart to believe thatwe are farther ahead than the
civil rights era.
And I think that right now it'sreminded us honey ain't much
changed.
And we were, I think we had abelief that we, it had, Hmm.
(40:47):
it had Yeah.
it.
Dr (40:49):
Yeah.
Dr. Shelly (40:50):
I think that we need to distinguish.
I love the fact that you usedthe word uncomfortable because
you're uncomfortable with it.
It does not mean you are unsafeand therefore need to be on the
defensive
Dr (41:00):
Yes.
Dr. Shelly (41:00):
because you get uncomfortable you may not know
the answer to the question, youmay not, you know, like what
that question is implyingbecause it's something that you
may not want to face.
It's something that iscontradictory to who you believe
you are.
of this can be true and you canstill be uncomfortable and be
(41:21):
safe in the space.
And that there's a differencethough.
And we have misconstrued lack ofsafety for lack of comfort, and
that has caused some huge issuesin our society Yeah.
when we are unsafe, we feel likewe need profe protection.
Somebody needs to come and saveus if we're unsafe.
If you're uncomfortable, thatmeans you need to put your big
(41:42):
girl panties on or your big boypan pants on Yeah.
with whatever is in front ofyou, even if you may be unsure
how or what the result is goingto be.
The those two are very differentsituations and saving people
from uncomfortable situations iswhat has gotten us this far in
this mess that we're in.
(42:02):
We're saving people from havingto answer the hard questions.
Let's answer something like,what if epigenetic trauma has
had an impact on black bodiesand Jewish bodies?
How is that same trauma ofbeating, raping, lynching people
for generations, what has thatdone to your DNA?
What has that done to yourability to feel empathy?
(42:25):
What has that done to yourability to see the world through
different perspectives?
could that be an issue that isnot something for the
minoritized to deal with?
That is something for the largerpopulation, the dominant group
to deal with.
If it's changed my ancestry,what's to say that it hasn't
changed yours?
(42:46):
Yeah.
are uncomfortable topics andconversations for folks.
Whereas when I say have theepigenetic conversation about
what's happened to people whohave been harmed, we can have
that conversation.
Even though it's a littleuncomfortable, folks can Yeah.
in it.
When we start talking about thepeople who have done the harm
and whether or not,'cause thequestion I ask is, if you have
(43:07):
this kind of history, if youhave this kind of, of DNA in
your body.
Are you fit to lead and are youfit to lead people who you, you
or your ancestry havetraditionally seen as less than
human?
Mm-hmm.
should you be doing before youstep into a position of
leadership, especially ofdiverse communities?
(43:29):
See, these are conversationsagain, they make the power
structure very uncomfortable,but they're not unsafe.
You Yeah.
not like the answer.
You got to give.
Dr (43:39):
Yes, yes and no.
A hundred percent and.
I think a way for people thatare new to the work or are
trying to think about how thisapplies to them in
uncomfortableness is wheregrowth happens.
If you aren't uncomfortable,you're not growing.
So if you start a new workoutregimen, Here we go.
(44:03):
right.
to, I admit.
I need to.
I'm, I'm in that space.
Girl, you are speaking mylanguage.
I started Pilates in Februaryand I am in love.
Okay.
So yes.
So I'll just use myself, right?
Like I'm a hundred days into myPilates journey.
There are some things that I cando pretty well, but then they
make some small tweak or I learnsome small new thing and it's
(44:23):
uncomfortable.
My muscles are uncomfortable,but my, the change happens when
I push through the uncomfort.
To get to the next level, and Ihave to continue when the next
uncomfortable moment or feelingcomes continue to push forward.
(44:45):
And I think that is how you canthink about this work when a
moment of uncomfortablenesscomes up, hold on, right?
Like and push through and you'regonna learn something, you're
gonna move to the next, youknow, level, for lack of a
better word.
That's where this work is ajourney, right?
(45:08):
I've been doing this for 25years and I won't say the
conversations make meuncomfortable anymore, but I am
willing to, when I learnsomething or something is
brought up to me that I didn'tknow, I didn't know, Yes.
you can't know everything,right?
Dr. Shelly (45:25):
Dr.
Tami, you are speaking truth tolife in every way.
I mean, um, I didn't really talktoo much about this, but my, my
main job now is as an executiveleadership coach, and Yeah.
the things I say at LeadershipLegacy Consulting, we do the
journey deliberation, which iswhat we say is that this journey
that you are on to liberation,which is a higher level, a
(45:47):
deeper level of freedom, Yeah.
is one thing that's just takingthe shackles off of your body.
And what's physically Iimpacting you?
Oftentimes, or the legal, uh,pieces, the politics, but
liberation is freedom of themind.
Hmm.
is finally free, you're in awhole nother level.
And one of the things that wesay in our work is that the
(46:09):
courageous leadership that youseek and courageous leadership,
which is our signature program,is, um, courageous means to push
through fear.
Leadership being to serve.
You have to push through fear ifyou are going to be of service
to others, and the courageousleadership you seek is on the
other side of the discomfort youcovet and this and, and so, or
(46:32):
the comfort you covet.
Dr (46:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Shelly (46:34):
have to push forward through that discomfort.
I'm gonna say that one more timethe courageous leadership you
seek is on the other side of thecomfort you covet..
When we stop coveting, comfortand embrace at the experience of
discomfort.
'cause oftentimes, GlennSingleton speaks about this in
his agreements for courageousconversations about race, that
(46:56):
if we can truly get to a placewhere we experience discomfort,
I mean, and let's be honest, wedon't like to be uncomfortable.
Dr (47:03):
No.
Dr. Shelly (47:04):
we have fans, we have, you know, water bottles,
we have cushy seats, we do allkinds of things so that we are
not uncomfortable in any way,shape, or form.
Right?
But it's through the discomfortthat the growth happens.
It's through the discomfort thatyou realize what you're really
capable of.
Dr (47:22):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Shelly (47:23):
the discomfort that you realize what you fear was
gonna break, you actually helpedmake you like, these are the
things that you realize.
And if you are always sittinghere trying to push back the
discomfort.
And that's one of thechallenges, and I'm just gonna
say it out loud, it's one of thechallenges of Eurocentric
culture is that Eurocentriccultures have traditionally.
(47:43):
uh, uh, celebrated just success,but not necessarily the journey
or the
Dr (47:49):
Mm.
Dr. Shelly (47:49):
that success.
They celebrate what it is that,the image that you're supposed
to project, but not necessarilyall the struggles that created
that image.
Whereas many collectivistcultures, whereas African
American culture is more of acollectivist culture, we
actually celebrate the struggle.
We wanna put the issue in themiddle of the room and have
everybody talk about it.
Yeah.
(48:10):
wanna see like all the uglysides.
'cause that's where we know wecan see the growth.
Like, oh, you went through that,that, that, and you still, okay,
that's inspirational.
Whereas oftentimes inEurocentric culture, it's, well,
don't tell'em the struggle, thestruggle.
Don't tell'em how hard it wasjust so that you did it right
and you overcame.
That's where that image ofsuccess, uh, versus the journey
(48:33):
to success.
At which do you value more?
We tend to value the journey.
other people tend to value theimage or the power that comes
with it.
And so this discomfort piecethat we're hitting on is a big
issue in the equity worldbecause when everybody is
getting what they need, when youhave to do something different
(48:53):
for somebody else, if yourmindset isn't in a place where
you're saying, I'm willing todo, like if Dr.
Tami needs something and I gottado something different so Dr.
Tami can be successful, thenI'm, I'm actually happy to do
that.
But if I feel like, well, I haveto do something so I'm losing
out so that Dr.
Tami can win, then the mindsetbecause, well, that's not Dr.
(49:14):
Tami's issue.
She gotta deal with that versusit is our issue to be
collectively successful, even atsomething like a podcast, we
have to make sure we are meetingeach other's needs.
If that doesn't happen, then itdoesn't become an enjoyable and
productive experience.
The same thing applies, I wouldargue, in every situation where
(49:35):
you have more than one persontrying to accomplish a task,
Dr (49:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Shelly (49:38):
have to be able to meet one another's needs, even
if that means it's gonna take alittle bit of extra effort on
your part to make sure the nextperson has what they need.
If you see that as a deficit anda problem versus part of the
process and the journey tosuccess, therein lies the
difference.
Dr (49:57):
Dr.
Shelly reminds us thatdiscomfort is not danger, and we
do no one any favors by avoidingthe hard questions.
Her episode, season two, episode13, A Must listen.
Our final guest today is someonewho reminds us that equity
begins in the stories we carry.
(50:17):
In the curriculum, we shapeLeroy Smith's personal journey
from Baltimore's wireneighborhoods to curriculum
design and coaching is powerful.
He teaches us that healing,openness and curiosity are not
just personal qualities, they'releadership essentials.
Leroy Smith (50:35):
Yeah.
I mean, I've taught math foryears and.
It.
I mean, one of the greatestlessons that you can teach
students is about negative andpositive integers.
Is when you're already in debt,you need even more to get into
the positive.
So there's a lot more effort.
And we talk about magnitude onthe number line
Dr (50:53):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (50:54):
like we talk to kids about, like, when you hear
magnitude, most people think ofearthquakes.
Dr (50:58):
Yeah.
Leroy Smith (50:59):
The larger the magnitude, the more the impact
is the same thing.
When you're in a ne, when you'rein a negative side of things,
further you are away from.
Equal opportunity or just anygreat opportunity, the more that
you need, the higher themagnitude you need to get
propelled forward.
Um, because you're so muchfurther behind, not because of
(51:20):
anything that you did, it's justbecause of circumstances and the
systems that are in place.
Dr (51:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that way of thinkingabout it too, because that.
For people in how sometimespeople get emotional talking
around some of these processesor systems or what are really
fact, right?
Leroy Smith (51:42):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (51:42):
It's a way to think about it outside in a way that's a little
bit more tangible, I think iswhat I'm trying to say.
Leroy Smith (51:48):
Yeah.
Dr (51:49):
you know, like it doesn't feel like a personal attack.
It just is like, Hey, justreally think about this.
If this happens.
Leroy Smith (51:56):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (51:58):
Um, this is the result of that.
And then how do we mediate that?
Leroy Smith (52:02):
Mm-hmm.
That's also part of my healingjourney.
actually looking at some of my,um, I look at my reflection
journals here or there just tosee like I.
Where I was not that long agowhere I am.
And one of the things I noticedis that although I experienced
quite a bit of trauma justbecause of the circumstances of
where I grew up, and the systemsthat influenced that or caused
(52:23):
that or had some hand in that, Iactually had quite a bit of,
like, I was both a caretaker attoo young of an age to not enjoy
the, the, the, the beauty ofchildhood.
the same time, I was also.
of the family structure, therewas a lot of looseness, loose
structure for me to create myown, um, way.
(52:45):
So I think, as I've gottenolder, I realized that it's just
kind of been a part of mynurture, kind of inadvertently
by my family and also part of mynature to just kind of find my
own way.
And I've done that, I've learnedthat I have to create space for
other people as they're findingtheir own way.
So I think.
That's why, you know, typicallywhen I speak to people, um, I, I
(53:06):
say I can sit down with even whodoes, who doesn't like me or
hate me because I'm open to hearwhere their heart is and where
their, and where it was.
Because I think it's, I thinksometimes the greatest, thing
that diminishes our humanity isjust not understanding.
Like I said, that up and downsthe natural parts of life.
(53:27):
I don't know what down someonewent through that created
whatever they feel or whateverthey believe.
Um, I don't know what up theyexperienced that may have
created that either.
I just know how I show up in theworld and I try my best to
understand other people, sothink having that openness
allows us to actually be incommunity and, and grow.
(53:48):
like I'm, I'm trying to think oflike all the gardeners out there
as gardening season.
you don't like, make enoughspace in your soil for all the
things you're growing, thingswill start growing up on top of
each other and competing forspace and they'll be in
conflict.
So there, I think even Gartersknow kind of, um.
Almost like through, how do yousay, muscle memory, that you
(54:11):
can't crowd everything.
There has to be a level ofopenness just for things to
grow.
So I think that's the space I'min now, and I'm trying to
continue that path.
Dr (54:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The plan.
Plants need a space to breathe
Leroy Smith (54:23):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (54:24):
airflow, right, to be their most productive.
Leroy Smith (54:26):
Yep.
Dr (54:27):
And I think that's a great analogy, right?
Because we as humans also,right, need space and air to
breathe and room
Leroy Smith (54:33):
Mm-hmm.
Dr (54:34):
to to grow.
I love that.
Leroy's perspective speaks tothe heart of what we believe
here at The Equity Hour thatevery person has a story worth
honoring, and every system needsto make space for that story.
You'll find his full episode inseason two, episode 12.
(54:54):
I hope this highlight episodeleft you energized and inspired
from Megan's vulnerability toKatie's humility.
To LT's Fire, Dwayne's SystemsLens, and Dr.
Shelley's Truth Telling andLeroy's Reflection.
We've seen equity in motion,real stories, real strategies,
and a shared reminder that ourwork is just the beginning.
(55:16):
If you wanna hear more, be sureto check out the full
interviews.
You'll find direct links in theshow notes.
Or just search the equity houron your favorite podcast
provider.
And if this episode resonatedwith you, share it with your
community.
Leave us a review or tag us onsocial to join in the
conversation.
Until next time, I'm Dr.
Tami.
(55:37):
Thank you for being in communitywith me.
And remember, use your voicetoday.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!