August 5, 2025 • 52 mins
In this powerful and timely episode of The Equity Hour, Dr. Tami welcomes powerhouse educators Drs. Bre & Kia to discuss what it really means to create safe, affirming schools for trans and gender-creative youth.
With honesty, warmth, and lived wisdom, the trio digs into the story behind Bre and Kia’s new book, T*is for Thriving, which offers educators frameworks, tools, and community for equity work that doesn’t stop at intention—it builds real infrastructure.
From navigating systemic pushback to cultivating joy in the face of oppression, this conversation explores how educators and allies can stay rooted in justice while speaking up when it matters most.
In this episode:
- Why “just staying neutral” isn’t an option in today’s climate
- The power of curriculum to affirm, include, and protect
- How allyship means removing barriers—not just offering support
- The story of T* is for Thriving and the frameworks that guide it
- Why joy, rest, and community are part of the resistance
- What it looks like to be in someone’s corner (and let them rest)
Resources:
Additional Resources:
To work with Dr. Kia: https://drkiadh.com/
Coaching Discovery Call
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Tami (00:03):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of
The Equity Hour with me, yourhost, Dr.
Tami.
To say I am beyond thrilledabout today's episode would be
an understatement, and I know Isay that all the time.
It's like I have a favoritechild, but all of them are my
favorite children.
But I am super excited about thetwo guests we have on the
podcast.
(00:23):
Today I have Dr.
Bre and Dr.
Kia with me today.
Hello ladies.
Thank you for joining us.
We are gonna dig into theirbook, which I'm very excited
about.
We're also gonna talk about, ofcourse, our equity journey and
the ways in which that they canboth continue to support you and
how you might be able to use thebook in your own work and your
(00:47):
own equity journey.
So, wanna do a quickintroduction and then I'll let
my two guests say, hi.
So Dr.
Bre is returning to the podcast.
Thank you for coming back, Bre.
And as you all know, Bre and Ihad some history together in
Illinois, but just to remindyou.
Dr.
Bre Evans Santiago has afoundation rooted in
(01:07):
vulnerability,intersectionality, and advocacy.
Dr.
Evans Santiago exemplifies trueleadership boasting over 25
years of diverse educationalexperience nationwide.
She leverage leverages herextensive background to inspire
and challenge audiences topursue just and equitable
learning environments for allchildren.
Dr.
(01:27):
Bre is dedicated to amplifyingbipoc and queer voices,
empowering educational leadersto foster a transformational
change, her commitment toinnovation and inclusion.
Drives her to navigate unchartedterritories and ensure every
voice has a seat at the table.
And we also have joining us, uh,Dr.
(01:48):
Kia.
Dr.
Kia is a psychologist,researcher, educator, and coach,
as well as the creator of thebridge to thriving.
Framework.
Co-author of the Civil RightsRoad to Deeper Learning, five
Essentials for Equity andCo-Editor of T is for Thriving
Blueprints for affirming Transand Gender Creative Lives and
learning in schools.
She leverages more than 25 yearsof experience in organizational
(02:11):
leadership, education, and youthdevelopment to offer research,
advising, coaching, and publicspeaking, as well as designs for
professional learningcurriculum.
Development and organizationalgrowth.
Dr.
Kia's work is grounded in theknowledge that innovation driven
by those furthest from powerimproves everyone's lives.
Welcome ladies.
Dr. Kia (02:33):
Hi.
So nice to be here.
Dr. Tami (02:35):
Okay, I just gotta say this like, hello powerhouses in
the room.
Like collectively, ladies, wehave like almost a century of
educational experience, which.
We are wise.
This group is a wise groupcoming to talk to you today.
Dr. Bre (02:54):
That's.
Dr. Kia (02:55):
I have my moments.
Dr. Tami (02:58):
We're just gonna roll in it, right?
Yes, yes.
We all have our moments, right?
We all have our moments.
But no, very impressive ladies.
I, I am just thrilled to haveyou both on the show today
because this idea of how we leadtransformation and who we speak
with and who we're doing thework for, and voices that are
privileged versus voices thatare silenced, um, really is an
(03:20):
important part.
Of this work and, and thejourney.
And so as I like to start offeach episode, because as we
know, equity, working indiversity, equity, inclusion is
a process.
We all have a journey.
We have a story into how we'vecome into this work, how we've
navigated and moved through thiswork.
And I always think it'simportant to share that this is
(03:42):
a consistent.
Learning pathway, right?
You're, you're meeting newpeople, you're understanding new
perspectives as you move throughand work with other people.
And that just makes us better,in the end.
And so I would love for you all,and, and whoever wants to go
first can go first.
Um.
To hear a little bit about yourjourney.
(04:03):
I know, and by the way, y'allwe're gonna get into this book,
but you can also read some morein depth if we don't get too
detailed about it in the introof their book, which by the way,
it's sitting right here.
And you know what, I'm sospecial, I just have to show you
this because Dr.
Bre gave me a signed copy.
Okay.
I know, right?
Heart.
Heart.
So, okay.
(04:24):
Who, who wants to jump in withtheir equity journey?
Dr. Bre (04:27):
Okay, I guess I'm starting.
Um, so I'll just start from, youknow, my professional journey,
thinking about, that's when Iwas really heavily involved with
advocacy, right?
So starting teaching in oh one,2001, I had legal insurance
since the first day I steppedinto a classroom identifying as
a lesbian.
I was always worried about, youknow, the idea behind, like
(04:52):
accusations of what can happen.
So I always, I started off withlegal insurance with that fear,
right?
Of thinking of who I was as aperson.
Teaching for several years.
I taught in California,Illinois, and Washington dc Um,
within that journey, learninglots of different things, but in
those spaces I could never tellwho my spouse was, right?
(05:13):
So like.
Um, especially in a lot ofschools, early on in the early
two thousands, there was no, youdon't get to, it's a don't ask,
don't tell time, you don't talkabout it.
And so my roommate would alwayscome and help me, you know, set
up my classroom and my roommatewould come and help with, you
know, field trips or whatever.
So no one really know that myroommate was my wife.
(05:35):
Um, and so dealing with thatearly on and always having to
deal with microaggression oreven just the unknown, identify
as a cis woman, very femmepresenting oftentimes.
So everybody's like, what doesyour husband do?
How is your husband?
And how's your wife and yourkids?
And it's like, oh, what do yousay?
(05:55):
Uh, he does, I don't know.
You know, like I had to alwayspretend or, or not say anything.
You know?
I ended up having a few friends,but the school wasn't like, I
didn't have an affinity group orpeople to help me go through my
journey.
Um, as being a queer teacher.
So, you know, fast forwardingthroughout my, my programs
(06:16):
master's program in my legalclass, I presented something on
laws regarding L-G-B-T-Q, andthen I said, it came out in my
class, you could hear a pindrop.
My partner that I presented withwalked out of the room crying
because she was offended that Ijust said that I was a lesbian,
(06:37):
a queer person.
So that was in oh five.
And then fast forward to mydissertation time, and this is
when we were in the
Dr. Tami (06:47):
Yes, this is when we met.
Dr. Bre (06:49):
Um, but in that space I met some people.
I'm like, cool, you're ineducation and you identify as
queer.
They didn't wanna be on mycommittee.
My, my dissertation was lookingat just cultural backgrounds
influence your decision to beout in schools.
Like maybe if you had moresupport.
You feel stronger to do it evenin the midst of all the things.
I thought that was myprediction, and so I was hoping
(07:09):
that I would have some of thatsupport.
I had to get people outside ofmy college to be able to help me
with my dissertation, to workthrough it, because even the own
educators in my space did notwanna be, they didn't want their
name on it.
They didn't wanna be known withL-G-B-T-Q stuff in 2015, 10
(07:32):
years ago.
Dr. Tami (07:33):
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you know, I didn't know thatpart because when we met I was
just finishing up.
My dissertation.
And so you were early in thedoctorate process and so I
wasn't there anymore by the timeyou started the dissertation,
(07:54):
but I remember we talked aboutwhat you wanted to study because
you know, I was looking atsocially just practices, right?
Like what happens when, youknow, student teachers leave?
You know, when we've talkedabout what best practices, what
happens when they leave and tryto go into a school district,
right?
Do they have the supports?
Are they able to do that?
Because, you know, people alwayssay like, teacher ed programs
(08:14):
don't do these things.
Mm.
That's not necessarily true itcan be and it can't be.
But also what is the environmentwe're sending these?
You know, folks into were, arethey able to feel safe to make
those, so those opportunitiesand decisions and to support all
of their students and all thethings.
So I didn't even know that Bre.
Wow.
I just learned something todaytoo.
But yeah.
No, that's so powerful.
Dr. Bre (08:35):
So that started my.
Advocacy for myself and myfrustrations and wanting to
support people.
Being a mother of fosterchildren of queer teens, our
house was one of the only housesin Kern County that would accept
queer teenagers.
So I really like, they wouldcall me to have a queer team
(08:57):
come and be a part of my spaceand I'm building it.
You know, there were all the,you know.
Teen groups and stuff that I wasa part of, but that was a big
part to me too, where I'm like,oh my gosh.
Even in the space that we'reliving, one of our queer teams
was unhoused because of it, youknow?
And so it's just like this, thisis reality five years ago um,
and then something else thatreally stands out to me just in
(09:20):
this space was that in the midstof writing my first book, the
Social Justice book for mistakeswe've made,
Dr. Tami (09:26):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Bre (09:26):
um.
I would do professionaldevelopment on it, and I became
an agenda item at a boardmeeting.
And, you know, then it was the,the critical race theory and the
concerns and things like that.
And so we had to go through thisprocess of me showing them what
I was teaching and me helpingthem see what I'm really doing,
(09:47):
whatever.
So cut to the end of it.
They had a question where itsaid, well, why do you, um, say.
Nontraditional families shouldbe elevated.
And I looked right in theirfaces and I said, because I'm a
nontraditional family.
I said, you teach my kids andyou don't acknowledge me in your
classrooms, and you could hear apenny drop.
(10:08):
Because they were like, oh.
Oh, well we didn't.
I, okay.
And I'm like, my kids arecontributing to your job.
But yet you're saying you can'ttalk about me as a queer parent.
Not just, you know, so those arelike my, ah, moments that really
fuel me.
In between there, of course, thecare and love from all the, the
(10:30):
college students and teams and,helping teachers with workshops
and things like that.
Um, to be able to develop, youknow, where we are at this
point.
But what pushes me for justiceand to help people have voices
is because of some of thosereally big experiences.
Dr. Tami (10:47):
yeah, yeah.
I can totally understand that.
Absolutely.
Dr.
Kia.
We're gonna, we're gonna comeback to some of the things you
said, Bre, but I wanna, I wannahear, I know, I, I, uh, yeah, I
got, yeah, I got some noteshere.
Uh, but I also wanna hear Dr.
Kia's story'cause I'm, I'm surewe're gonna find a way to thread
this all together.
Dr. Kia (11:08):
yeah, there's, there's definitely, uh, resonance and,
um, I was noticing, I was sortof going up to sort of 30,000
feet and coming back down to theground and, you know, thinking
about these experiences.
I think, uh, one of the thingsabout having minoritized
identities or, you know,experiencing oppression is that,
(11:30):
when we exist in these spaces,in this society, our attunement
to equity, our attunement toinclusion are attunement to
justice, and the presence orlack of diversity can sort of
become.
I think it starts in, in anintrinsic way.
But one of the things that I wasstruck by is, landing in
(11:53):
graduate school, is it's usuallyin higher ed that we are first
exposed to like the language,the meaningful, philosophical
and political thought, theanalysis that lets us not only
articulate our own experienceswith some sense of authority,
but also gain greaterunderstanding of how these
different.
Things, interact, thesedifferent sort of nuances around
(12:14):
power.
So in some ways my journeyreally began when I began, you
know, I have two parents whowere both, activistic in their
orientations.
My father was atelecommunications lawyer who
was very focused on minorityownership of media.
So radio stations, televisionstations, cable, that sort of
thing.
Um, and.
Paid very close attention to howthe law was being deployed to
(12:37):
silence or enable rightdiscourse and opportunity.
Um, and minority ownership ofmedia in part was very much a
civil rights concern.
And this is of course, back inthe 1970s, 1980s.
And of course, we see it as aconcern right now.
There's corporate owned mediathat is of course being deployed
to advanced fascism.
(12:57):
Then my mother is, I mean, inthis audience, probably pretty
well known, famous educatorwho's been very focused on
students getting their needs metand teachers being supported
and, um, advancing civil rights,and equity through legislation
and policy.
I mean, some of these fightslast decades, right?
(13:18):
Some of these fights have beengoing on for as long as I've
been going on,
Dr. Tami (13:21):
Yeah, I was just thinking that, I'm like the, the
journey along people's like, oh,this is new.
No, no, no, it's not.
And the pushback's not neweither.
Dr. Kia (13:31):
right, like, and I'm knocking on a half a century.
So this is like, you know, thishas been going on.
So the for, and so.
We could get into, being a mixedkid or, you know, and claiming
racial identity.
Am I black, am I mixed?
Am I, et cetera, et cetera.
We could get into, queeridentity.
Um, for me, for me it was, Iknew who I was.
(13:54):
Went deep into the closet andthen started to emerge when I
was getting my master's inteaching.
And I had a really powerfulteacher, um, Michael Sadowski,
who created all of this safetyand spaciousness.
If you're not familiar with hiswork, he's written.
A number of really powerfulbooks, about safety, about
representation, about, um,L-G-B-T-Q and same gender loving
(14:18):
kids, um, in students in school.
So like, we're in the samelittle ecosystem of recognizing
that the classroom is, and BellHooks talks about this.
So many people talk about this,the classroom is a liberation
space.
It's really a powerful space.
So I didn't see myselfrepresented.
(14:39):
But, in a number of ways when Iwas growing up.
I did start tutoring when I wasin high school, a lot of my
peers, because it was just clearthat they, they were having
difficulty in classes, but theywere brilliant and there was a
disconnect between, you know,the, the pedagogy and the
student.
Um, and so that was really myfirst kind of glimpse into this
(15:01):
sort of inequity, reallystarting to understand that
there was this inequity that wascoming into play that was
failing to.
See the whole student failing toaddress their particular needs
that, you know, and um, I wasalso a teenager, so like, what
did I know?
I was like, I can help you withmath homework.
You know what I mean?
But I was thinking, and I wasthinking about this, how we're
(15:22):
always being and becoming at thesame time.
Right.
You had mentioned thatbeginning, always sort of on
this journey of discovery andand development but that really
was, um, my, my parents had hadto fight for me when I was in
school, fight to give me, like,they'd have to fight the school
and the district just to allowme to take a test to see if I
could place into.
(15:42):
You know, a course of study thatgave me more advanced, teaching
and opportunity and all thesethings and everything was gate
kept, everything, everything,everything.
And, you know, have to go in andfight a teacher trying to punish
me for existing instead of,actually paying attention to
what I was doing.
So it's like, just, it's, it's,the lineage is throughout, but
(16:03):
similarly to y'all in graduateschool.
Well, similarly to you, Bre, butdifferent, when I was in my
graduate program, my focusquickly became thriving, at the
margins and specifically blackL-G-B-T-Q and same gender loving
young people.
So, you know, being young, beingblack and being queer, trans, or
(16:23):
non-binary.
Um, and most of the people in myprogram really couldn't, like,
this wasn't their area of study.
This wasn't their area ofcomfort.
Now this was, you know, right atthe, I think you, you said it
was 2015 for you.
That was the very beginning ofme and my doctoral journey.
So it was just, in that samekind of time period.
(16:45):
I was lucky though, becausepeople who didn't feel
comfortable in the subject areawere still supportive.
So I had people who were like, Ican't really help you deepen
your scholarship in this way,but I'm gonna remove barriers.
And that made a huge difference.
And I think that's alsoillustrative of what.
What we can do in this equitywork, even when we're not, like
(17:05):
our identity's not implicated.
Right.
Um, because I had peoplegenuinely just go, I'm gonna get
that outta your way.
I'm gonna get that outta yourway.
I'm gonna make sure you get thisfunding.
I'm gonna give you thisassistantship.
And allowed me to really focuson what I was trying to study
deeply.
But I also did have to, youknow.
People outside of myinstitution.
(17:25):
So I reached out to Ed BrockenBrown.
Woo.
It was so amazing.
And so Ed was not only a part ofmy committee, but was also a
part of my, you know, growthjourney while I was in graduate
school, even though he wasn't atmy university.
Lance McCready part of myjourney, but not at my
university.
And then there were some folkswho I was introduced to, um, by
an outgoing scholar who said,you need to meet these incoming
(17:46):
people'cause they're gonna beanchoring you so.
That support matters a greatdeal.
It would have been a verydifferent experience if I hadn't
had that.
I think I'm just like journeyingall over the place.
But from a diversity standpoint,I would say, uh, education has
been crucial.
Being exposed to people who aredifferent to me, who had
(18:09):
different experiences,backgrounds, upbringings, and so
much of that really justhappened in college, which to me
drives the point home of howimportant it is to get kids
there.
Challenges of those spaces, notwithstanding.
Right.
Um.
Dr. Tami (18:23):
Well, yeah, and I, I think, just very timely, right?
The fact that people,legislation and decisions are
starting to make that an evenstronger barrier of access
because we're looking at, now,not just.
Um, systems that are in place toput in barriers, gatekeeping
that's happening.
But now we also have financialor a lack of access to financial
(18:46):
resources, right?
To make this space, accessible,especially higher levels of
study, like graduate level,doctoral level.
Like where are we gonna get thediversity of thought?
That makes us all better.
Um.
Kia, you said something aboutremoving barriers and I just
(19:06):
really thought that that wasvery powerful.
So when we talk about, andpeople talk about wanting to be
an ally or support the work,like, I don't know what I need
to do.
That's exactly what you can doIf you are sitting in a space or
have power in a space or have aprivileged identity that can
allow you to open doors.
Remove barriers, right?
(19:27):
Provide funding, whatever it is.
That is what you can do, right?
You don't Go ahead.
Dr. Kia (19:34):
Yeah.
So related to that, and comingback to what you were talking
about, Bre, um, there so much ofthat happens in the space of
relationship.
Dr. Tami (19:43):
Mm
Dr. Kia (19:44):
I have access to this person, we have trust.
I can have this conversationwith them that shifts the way
they're approaching thissituation, that institutional
power that's tied torelationship.
But then also so much of this isabout.
Like Bre, there was somethingpowerful about you being in
that, you know, board space andforcing them to reckon with your
(20:09):
existence and being reallycourageous to speak up and not
only identify your truth, yourreality, but look them in the
eye and invite them to sit withthe discomfort of their bias,
their bigotry.
And that's a thing too, right?
So.
All of this.
Part of what fuels a lot of whatwe see is segregation and
(20:34):
secrecy, and part of what fuelsthat is that there are so few of
us sometimes in these spacesthat like safety is a legitimate
concern.
Stability is a legitimateconcern.
So we need coalition, we needeach other, and we need to build
these relationships sometimes atthe level of one person to one
person, build the trust, buildthe, you know me, so that there
(20:54):
can be kind of like rippleeffects from that.
Dr. Tami (20:58):
Yeah.
Dr. Kia (20:59):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (20:59):
Yeah, the power of relationship, and that makes me
also think about that leads tocommunity, and I think that is a
huge part of this work.
I mean, even just the three ofus sitting here today, right, is
a power of this communitybecause I met Bre.
Bre knows you now you are herewith me.
(21:21):
And then we get to see anddiscuss and find these
differences, but alsocommonalities, right?
Amongst our experience and whatwe're here to do.
Like what is important to us inthis work.
Um.
I can't remember which one ofyou said it, but I think it was
actually a thread in both ofthem.
(21:42):
But I think it's important totalk about,'cause I think people
are feeling very nervous aboutthe current environment, the
anti, DEI work, we saw a hugejump of performative DEI
statements and all these thingsafter George Floyd, and then
we've now seen this like sh.
You know, pull back.
(22:03):
Um, there's a lot of fear,right?
That people have seen executiveorders saying that words these
words aren't allowed andthey're, you know, going through
and scrubbing them from spaces,you know, and there's just so
much happening, people areafraid of losing, you know,
funding.
(22:24):
And part of when I'm in some ofthese conversations is exactly,
what we alluded to while youwere, while you were sharing, I
think Kia, like this isn't new,right?
There has always been pushback,there has always been fear
around this work.
Um, but I would love to hearkind of a little bit about what
you all think about this.
I don't even call it renewedbecause it's not, it's just more
(22:46):
overt than it has been maybe ina little while.
Um, and how that.
Can push it back and, you know,and push back against your work,
but even enhances the importanceof your book that you've put
together.
And probably a little bit aboutthe why you guys came to putting
your book together.
Dr. Kia (23:08):
I mean, I have a lot of thoughts.
Dr. Tami (23:11):
I know, and that was like a huge like question.
I'm like, I'm like, I'm likedeep.
I'm like, let's.
Peel back some of the onion.
We might not get through thewhole onion, but we're, we're
gonna get there little places.
Dr. Kia (23:24):
Well, one of the first things when you were talking
about performative DEI wasthinking about.
There were a lot of goodintentions and aspirations, and
then there was a lack ofinfrastructure and a lack of
analysis.
So critical consciousness isimportant because what it
invites is a meaningfulengagement with the political
and the way that the politicalis material, right?
(23:47):
Not just in relationship toresources like money and
funding, but also material inthe sense of these, these things
have impacts on our body.
Et cetera.
These things are, you know, youcan't divorce the political from
the body, you can't divorcethat, so there were a lot of
aspirations and intentions witha lack of meaningful political,
(24:09):
um, grounding and analysis, andthat the political grounding and
analysis also relies oncommunity.
And one of the challenges thatwe keep, it's a community of
people who are willing to bepart of your growth trajectory.
Hold you in your ignorance andyour growth as you become
something else.
And that's very difficult in aculture of judgment and
(24:30):
punitively and ity where there'slots and lots and lots of harm
that's happened where there's ahistory.
So now I'm supposed to kind ofbe in this, you know, growth
journey with a bunch of peoplewho I can't actually trust
because they've already doneharm to me and I may have done
harm, and so on and so.
But this is some of, so much ofthis comes back to the
(24:53):
interpersonal, so I just wantedto say that because, but the
other thing that I thought thatwas really interesting was you
talked about the shift indiscourse.
There have always been bulliesand bullies are bad faith.
So I was thinking aboutColumbia.
Columbia kowtow to the Trumpadministration, to Trump
specifically to theadministration, and got punished
(25:15):
anyway.
And so, you know, it was veryinteresting, and I think this is
a lesson to everyone.
There is no safety, meaningfulsafety, long-term safety in
capitulating to bullies.
And this is again, why we needeach other, why we need
community, why we need the ACLU, why we need the NAACP why we
(25:37):
need coalitions, and you know,because.
They will always take more.
None of this is actually aboutrace or gender or sexual
orientation.
None of it, it's about money.
All of this is a resource powergrab and trans people are
scapegoats in this moment andit's easy to scapegoat a
(26:01):
community that feels socially orculturally different to the
mainstream.
And that is so small, right?
That, you know, the rest of uswho are not trans have to like
wrap around the communitybecause it's protecting them
because that's the right thingto do, but it's also protecting
everybody else.
(26:22):
Right?
And that is a political analysisthing too.
You have to understand thatthese fools don't give a about.
I don't know if I can swear
Dr. Tami (26:32):
You can, oh, please go ahead.
No worries.
This is not a children'spodcast.
Dr. Kia (26:38):
Right.
These are spiritually bereft.
These are spiritually bereftpeople deploying power to make
themselves feel somewhat wholeand just failing completely in
the assignment.
They don't care.
So part of our job is to bereally courageous and understand
that we're not actually saferwhen we don't speak up.
We are safer when we do,
Dr. Tami (26:58):
Yeah, because they're coming for you next, right?
Like
Dr. Kia (27:01):
or they're coming for me now.
I mean.
Dr. Tami (27:04):
now.
Next, and like, it's not gonnastop.
Dr. Kia (27:08):
That they, these are, these are, these are efforts
that are eating everything up intheir path.
Our planet, our spirits, ourchildren, like they, they will
consume everything until theycan't consume anything else.
And then all they're left withis themselves and that's when
(27:28):
they self-destruct.
You just kind of wish they wouldjust self-destruct beforehand,
but this is how they do that,just.
Us all with them.
Dr. Tami (27:37):
Yeah.
Dr. Bre (27:37):
Yeah.
I, I see it as an analy.
So I'm thinking about right nowtoo, and I'm gonna go on a
little bit about my own family,because this hits home for me in
ways that is not okay.
So, um, but I see it as like ina boxing match.
And I don't know if you, youknow, even like boxing and it's
kind of, it's a lot, but I'm asports person.
(27:59):
But, just thinking about like,by the end it's like you're so
damn tired.
You still keep getting it leftand right, like it's just no
matter what.
And then it's like, Nope, butyou're not done.
Get up.
You're not done.
Get up.
You're not done.
And that's, this is what thatfeels like.
Um, like we can't stop.
(28:20):
We can't, and it freaking hurts.
It hurts.
We're losing people left andright.
There's blood being drawn.
There's, there's pain.
It's a lot.
But we can get up.
Get up.
Like we have to be, like yousaid, Kia, that community.
Right.
Really finding those affinityspaces and building upon.
I see it so much within thebullying as like wanting to make
(28:42):
us fail, wanting us to quit,wanting us to cry, wanting us
to, and Kia's, right.
We got cell phones.
We're on this, we're, peoplewill find us, people will try.
Whatever it is, there are waysthat people could be in and out
of whatever we do anyway.
Right.
So when we can and when we havethe opportunities to name it, to
(29:03):
say it and to smile, I thinkthat pisses them off more than
anything.
You think about, you know, whenit's like someone slaps you and
you laugh, like bring it, youknow?
I feel like that's how we haveto be like it's the resistance
in that where it's like.
Yeah, keep smacking me'cause I'mgonna keep laughing in your
(29:24):
face.
I'm gonna keep smiling.
I'm a but that takes so much,like, I've talked to this takia
about this where it's likeliving hour to hour sometimes.
Um, you know, we used to be ableto say, oh, have a good day and
you had a good day.
There's so much, and, and thisis kind of separate, but being,
in my role as associate dean, wesee our student like ice.
Like, oh my God, like there's alot going on in California right
(29:46):
now because we fight back.
And it pisses him off.
And so it's like trying to beviolent and pull us down in
whatever way is possible.
And in all of that space, I'mlike, I had a good hour.
This right now is a good hour.
So it's like recognizing andacknowledging those spaces to
continue to build us up to fightone more round, build us up to
(30:07):
continue to do that.
You know, that work for a while.
I went through a hard time.
I would probably say what,January to March.
Um.
My spouse is trans and it's,it's open.
I'm not outing him at all.
It's, he's in our book, youknow, we'll talk about it more
in a second, but we live inprivilege.
We're okay.
(30:28):
I got good insurance.
My spouse is okay, but I can'tBut it's the, like, I can't help
but think about the space inwhich he comes from and the
space that we have to supportand love and care for.
And I think about these kids andI think about, you know.
Every day that they're fightingto just wake up and to live.
(30:49):
Ugh.
So I just, any, if anything,it's building my, you know, my
strength to, to fight for peoplethat can't, or, or, or are
afraid to, or, you know, so it'slike this is the time for that,
you know?
Dr. Kia (31:04):
Just to add to your boxing metaphor, you talked
about boxing.
Boxing, you have corners andthere's a ref.
And there's a point in therounds, right?
And I feel like in a lot ofways, those of us who have
resource or power or position,who are, you know, we need to be
the corners.
We need to be the refs, right?
(31:24):
We need to be the crowd.
So that folks, because you, itis not an individual thing,
right?
Um, it is, it is a and I wasthinking also about that.
Somebody, there's a postfloating around the interwebs,
of course, about how hope is notlike a, a delicate thing.
Hope is, you know, uh, you know,scrappy, bloody knuckled, rising
(31:47):
from the ghost, spitting out atooth like that really is it.
And, I love that you brought upthe, the point about running
interference for another sportsmetaphor, running interference
for young people who have lesspower and are still becoming and
need to know how to fight, youknow, but also need to have
(32:08):
space to rest.
Dr. Tami (32:09):
Yeah.
I, I have, I have, oh my gosh, Ihave so many things going on in
my brain right now.
Like, um, it's such a good way,right?
I love this idea about we, weare in the corners.
And because for me, when yousaid that, that made me think,
'cause while you were talkingBrea, I'm thinking this is also
why rest as a resistance is partof the narrative.
(32:29):
Because if we're in our corners,then that means.
I, I have support so I can rest.
Like we can't always be the onethrowing the punches all the
time.
So maybe another sports metaphoris maybe it's a little bit more
of like wrestling where we tagteam in and then somebody else
hops in for a minute and takesit.
'cause I'm tired right now andso I need to rest.
(32:49):
But oh, like, yes.
I love that idea.
Like we're in the corner.
So find someone that can supportyou in your corner or be.
Also, I think, vocal, right?
So people know you are there tocome to you as a, a support, as
a someone to lean into, to talkto.
(33:10):
Um, I think that is one of themost important things.
I had someone on my podcastrecently who asked me if I
planned on changing the name ofmy podcast.
Because it's called the equityhour and you know, equity is not
a, I was like, absolutely not.
I said, in fact, this is a timewhere I need to use it even
more.
I said, so because, she had beenon a pre, a different podcast
(33:32):
and they were changing theirname and doing all these things.
I was like, oh no, that's notme.
That is not my style.
Like, I'm like, I'm doublingdown.
I'm like, I want people to knowthis is what I'm here for.
This is what I've always beenhere for, and.
This is a safe space to come andhave these conversations and to,
to, to share these stories.
Um, and you know, this remindsme of your, oh God, what is it
(33:54):
called?
My brain is, I'm having aperimenopause moment, y'all in
the moment.
Your book Dedication, Bre,thinking back about to your
family, right?
Um, and you wrote about Bobby,where we all have a space to
thrive, and I know Bobby was thecatalyst for the book, so.
Um, I think that just fits in sowell, right?
(34:17):
Like the space to thrive foreveryone, having people in your
corner.
So I would love, and I know it'sin your book, but the journey of
how you can, you wanted to writethis book based on your
experience, for your family andwith Bobby and coming together
with Kia and all the amazingauthors.
That you guys have inside thebook.
(34:37):
It is so powerful, y'all.
And I'm gonna give away a copy,by the way, because somebody
needs this.
Yes, we need this book.
We need this book out in theworld.
So I'm gonna stop talkingbecause this is your guys' book
and I wanna hear, I just wannahear about it.
I wanna hear about how it cametogether.
I know you wrote about it, but Iknow the audience hasn't heard,
um, about it yet
Dr. Bre (34:55):
Yeah.
Um, so yes, so, so Bobbydefinitely was a main component
of this because, you know, as ateacher, and you know, my spouse
and I, we've been together for17 years.
So we've grown and learned and,started out as a lesbian couple,
and then as time progressed,Bobby came out and we worked
through that together and we'restill together and, and
(35:17):
thriving.
And it's, it's changed for mewith my identity and, and
orientation and things likethat.
And the same with him.
So like, it's been a journeytogether.
But in the midst of that, Iasked him, I said, why did it
take you so long?
Like, why did you wait so longto come out and why?
You know, and his response like.
It.
It fueled me.
It broke me and then fueled mebecause he said, I didn't know
(35:39):
people like me existed.
And you're what it was.
Oh God, so many years ago.
He was probably like in his latetwenties.
I didn't know people like meexisted.
And so, because in our academiaworld, we've met more queer
people.
I was, you know, an advisor forthis space and working with the,
(36:00):
the students and working withfaculty and staff where we met
and had a circle of queer,non-binary trans folks where
Bobby was like, oh, this is me.
Oh, here I am.
This is who I am.
And I've seen, you know, so Iwas like, it's about time.
Like it didn't.
It didn't shock me.
(36:22):
Um, you know, I do, I do missthe girl sometimes.
Like I, I've been, you know, sothere's that.
But, but, but personally, Iasked him, I said, you didn't
learn, like teachers didn't helpyou see this, or he said, no in
school.
He never even knew about theword trans or what it meant.
And so I was like, oh no, weneed to do something about it.
(36:42):
And then the second part aboutthat, so.
There are people that are alliesand wanna do this work, and
they're trying to do these likelessons and do these things.
And sometimes it's more harmfulthan helpful, but they don't
mean to do that.
Right.
But it's because they don't havethe knowledge behind it or the,
the, the empathy orunderstanding the people and
(37:04):
what's really happening whenyou're doing these lessons.
And so I said we need to helpour allies.
To get these lessons out therebecause when I did a small
survey, teachers told me, um,it's like one of my articles for
California, like looking at theFair Act teacher said, I know
about it, I wanna do it, but Idon't have the resources and I
(37:24):
don't have the materials, and Idon't, and I don't know where to
go.
And so I was like, well then weneed to here.
We need to do it for you.
And so that's where that camefrom.
Um, was thinking like, we needsomething right now, and
something that can help affirmpeople like Bobby, but then also
make sure we're meeting thestandards and all the things
from top to bottom where there'sno question asked, here's an
(37:47):
inclusive lesson that you cantake right now and use.
So that's, that's my like.
Idea behind it of where, wheresome of that came from.
And then Kia's like beautifulframework.
Oh my gosh.
So I'll let her talk too, butum.
That idea behind thriving andwho we are and what we need to
(38:08):
be.
Okay.
Like we didn't want a book thatwas about this bad thing happens
and there's this bad thing.
We wanted to celebrate and talkabout the good and how we can
make it a positive schoolenvironment.
So I'll let Kia add on and shareas to like why she jumped on or
what and what, you know, shecontributed, which was so much.
Um, but it just became thisbeautiful, beautiful project
(38:28):
that couldn't have come at abetter time.
Right.
So.
Dr. Tami (38:32):
absolutely.
Absolutely.
And you know, I love that theteachers are like, I want to do
this right?
And so.
I think that's an importantmessage too.
If you're, you know, you wannabe an ally and support the work,
but you're not sure how, andyou, so you don't wanna do that
harm asking the question so thatyou can find those resources so
(38:52):
you can do it in a way that issupportive and affirming.
I think, you know, that's notalways easy for people to do.
Like it's asking for help,right.
Or saying, I don't know,something.
Um.
So I love that they asked that.
So now we have this book.
So, and Kia, I wanna hear about,your part of the journey of the
book.
Dr. Kia (39:11):
Yeah, it was wonderful.
So Bre, uh, invited me to jointhe project, which was
wonderful, specifically to bringin kind of the thriving work.
Before I get into that, I justwanted to say, I feel like the
theme of like aspiration versusinfrastructure is coming up
again where it's like, I reallywanna do this, but I'm just not
sure how, I don't know how to,you know, deploy it under my
(39:33):
specific conditions.
Um, and we talk a little bitabout this also in the book,
just like.
How, depending on your context,you might need to approach this
work in different ways.
And so we brought in some otherscholars who have really thought
about how to incorporate,transgender, creative young
(39:53):
people into classrooms, intoschools, into the work.
Um, because policies aredifferent in different states
because the conditions vary.
So we don't go into great depth,but we do touch on it and point
people towards other really, youknow, powerful work.
The what we, in ourconversation, I, I, we did
decide we had the choice betweenmaking it like a super academic
(40:15):
book versus, uh, more just sortof like light touch come on in.
This is very accessible.
You do not have to look allthese words up in the
dictionary.
We did, I don't think we everused the word ontology, but
like, like.
We, um, we wanted this book tobe something people could really
just plug and play.
Like, oh, okay, this is, youknow, doable.
(40:36):
Um, and then we grounded it inactually three frameworks.
So one of the things about thethriving, the Bridge to Thriving
framework is it's really, um,it's really recognizing that the
hardships and the traumas andthe harms are real.
We do have to pay attention tothem.
And this is like, uh, ToniMorrison talking about, you
(40:57):
know, the work of, uh, racism isdistruction.
There's a point at which,especially for those of us who
are experiencing these things,we can become completely
consumed in the survival workand not able to really focus on
building the thing that we wannasee instead.
Right.
And in order to build the thingwe wanna see instead, while
(41:17):
we're also surviving, we needeach other.
So that's why community is thefoundation of the Thriving
framework.
So this was a book that wasgrounded in the, let's imagine,
beyond the BS that we'resurviving, right?
And really give people somethingthat moves us toward the thing
that we actually wanna see andbuild in the world.
So that's one piece.
(41:38):
But then there were two otherframeworks in the mix.
One was, SJ Miller's, uh, verymenopause moment.
Um, I'm not going to say thename of the framework correctly
right now, and I am mortified.
It is in the book, but it's, uh,essentially a framework tied to
gender diversity.
I am sorry, SJ.
(42:00):
Oh my god.
Um,
Dr. Tami (42:01):
Sj, I will make sure it is listed in the show notes
for sure.
Dr. Kia (42:05):
Yeah, gender complexity specifically and inviting
educators to really understand,um, that, you know, you can't
like look at a person and knowtheir gender.
That deployment of gender in ahuman being's experience can be
quite complex in and of itself.
Gender identity complexities,framework.
Oh, thank you brain.
(42:26):
I was like, it's in there.
I know it's in there.
Um, so.
There's that piece, and wewanted to bring that in because
of course, we're reallyexplicitly talking about trans
and gender creative youngpeople, and this framework is
directly tied to education andeducational spaces.
We also, of course, tapped intoGoldie Muhammad's, historically
responsive literacy frameworkand goldie's.
(42:49):
Anchored into race andethnicity, and we, you know,
took it and translated aroundgender, identity specifically.
But this, the importance of thisis where critical consciousness
comes into, and it's across allthree of the frameworks
thriving, uh, gender identity,complexity, and historical, um,
literacy.
Understanding not only who weare and who we've been and who
(43:10):
our forebearers are and what ourmodels are, so we can see
ourselves like Bobby needed to.
Right, so we can see ourselves,so kids can see themselves, um,
and figure out who they are inthe broad project of humanity.
But also so that we're at tunedinto the politics of, as we were
just talking about, the waythese things keep recurring in
(43:31):
human history.
This is not the first time transand gender creative people have
been targeted for, essentiallyscapegoated, um, as a way to get
people accustomed to egregiousviolence.
So that a bunch of really greedypeople can steal everything they
can touch and everything theycan't, like, this isn't even the
first time we've seen this andthere are also resistance
(43:53):
histories that are important.
So we were bringing that into,again, with the orientation to
not only acknowledging thatthere are survival needs, but
also that that is not the wholestory and we deserve to thrive,
we're we deserve to thrive.
Dr. Tami (44:09):
absolutely.
Oh, that's so powerful becausewe know that.
We hear a lot about trauma, likethis negative story about a
particular group and all thething, the horrible things that
they've experienced.
Right?
And that isn't what makes up aperson or a, a group of people
even, like the resilience, thejoy, the connection, the, all of
(44:34):
these richness of humanity iswhat makes up a group.
Oh yeah.
Dr. Kia (44:40):
And the defiance, which is what this book is,'cause we
gonna be popular.
And they'll look right.
No, but it's defiance.
It's the refusal to change thename of your podcast.
It's the refusal to be quiet.
It's the refusal to allow theignorance to be the loudest
thing in the room.
The defiance.
Dr. Tami (44:57):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Oh, this like gives me chills,y'all.
Like I just love, you know, weare here to, yes, we are here to
thrive and we are here to thrivein community.
And even if.
I think sometimes we pinourselves against each other in
(45:18):
different, you know, groups,right?
Like my struggle is harder thanyour struggle but, but really
it's all grounded in very muchwhat you've been saying here
that aspiration in theinfrastructure, it's all the
same.
It's all the same.
It what's causing all of thesethings.
Yes.
Like, and I think that is themost important part.
(45:39):
'cause when we come together.
That power, the def.
Oh, I love that idea ofdefiance.
I love that.
'cause I am a sassy girl and Ihave tried to not be sassy and
people will be like, you knowwho you were talking to?
I was like, I do, but you knowwhat?
Mm.
I don't work that way.
Like you are doing things like.
I legitimately got fired from ateaching job because I don't
(46:03):
even know if you know the storyre, but I got fired from a
teaching job because I wasstanding up for these kids.
My principal did not like it wasa predominantly low income black
student population.
Didn't like that the studentsresponded were excelling, the
students were excelling.
So we tried to shift my teachingrole so I could have less
impact.
That didn't work.
Very frustrated, right?
So instead he tried to say I wasa bad teacher.
(46:25):
Tried to fire me while I was onbedrest, by the way, having
pregnant with my child.
Totally illegal.
But anyway, so I sue thedistrict.
I'm like, I don't feel bad.
I don't feel bad that I'mstanding up for the.
You are wrong.
You're wrong about children.
And so I say this all the time.
I will always say and do what Iknow to be right and best for
people.
And if other people have aproblem with that, then whatever
(46:45):
that consequence is, I'm finewith it because it usually sets
me onto a better pathway.
Because when we stand up foreach other, when we use our
voices for each other, we allbenefit from that.
And I know people are like, oh,that's really scary.
Yeah, it can be scary.
Like it can't be scary peoplelike, oh, I don't wanna lose my
job.
(47:05):
I don't wanna lose, I didn'twanna lose my job.
I didn't do it thinking I wasgonna lose my job.
But at the end of the day, can Ilive with myself if I'm not
saying things that I know are,you know, morally wrong or
harming people, that itshouldn't be in any of those
things.
That's just not.
(47:26):
I just can't do it personally.
Right.
Um, and I think the more we talkabout how we do that, I think it
empowers people to feel likethey can, they can do it too.
Dr. Kia (47:35):
I think that's right.
I think there's, you know,there's the moral dimension,
there's also material dimension.
So, um, there is increasingly,uh, a movement toward building
hyper-local mutual aid networksand communities.
And I have a link that I'llshare with you and maybe it can
go in the show notes because Ido think, especially if you're,
you know, if you're on your own,you don't have community around
(47:58):
you, your family's in anotherstate or whatever it is, you
know, the moral is easier whenthe material is more secure and
human beings need, we need toknow, like, I'm gonna be able to
eat, I'm gonna have a roof overmy head, you know, I can get
care if I need it.
And so we need each other forthat.
So I'll share that resource andhopefully that'll also be, um.
(48:18):
Something that helps people feelmore courageous.
Dr. Tami (48:21):
Absolutely.
Oh my gosh.
You guys, like, I feel like Icould talk to you for absolutely
another hour, and I love thatabout the podcast, but I know it
is time for us to wrap up.
I will make sure everyone, one,I'll put a link to the book,
watch out for the giveaway.
I'm gonna do that on, on mysocials.
I, I'm gonna put a link for Dr.
(48:41):
Bre, for Dr.
Kia so you can access theirwork.
Anything we've talked about inthis podcast will be in the show
notes.
Um.
I do wanna wrap up.
Do you, either one of you wannashare like a quick tip for
people that are like looking tomaybe start this work, access
this work?
Before we wrap up,
Dr. Bre (48:59):
I'll share just real quick, it's, you know, a couple
sentences.
My, my thought is don't not doanything like we're in a space
now and everybody may not, likeyou said, some might be scared
to step in the forefront or tosay something, but, um, lives
are at stake.
Dr. Tami (49:16):
Mm.
Dr. Bre (49:17):
I can't say that any other way.
Lives are at stake.
So whatever capacity you have,whatever that looks like,
whether it's financiallysupporting a group, whether it's
buying books for people to do abook study, whether it's going
to a protest, saying the thing,teaching the way you wanna
teach, whatever that is, butdon't not do anything.
(49:38):
Um, I think at this point, likewe said, the resistance, the,
the, the joy, the care we haveto be in each other's corners.
And this is a very pertinenttime.
And honestly, I don't see itgetting better anytime soon.
It's, we're gonna have to gomaybe some, some, what do they
say?
Like the overtime, like 12round.
Like, I don't know, but I justfeel like, um, we have to stay
(50:01):
strong and support each other.
So just don't not do anything.
Yeah.
So that's, that's what I couldsay at this moment, you know?
Um, and whatever that lookslike.
Dr. Kia (50:11):
the way it gets better is by us fighting now.
Dr. Tami (50:15):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kia (50:16):
I'll send another resource tied to that too.
What you can do.
Dr. Bre (50:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (50:20):
Well, thank you Dr.
Bre.
Thank you, Dr.
Kia.
It has been such a pleasuretalking with you both.
Thank you all for joining us foranother episode of The Equity
Hour.
You can find everything we'vetalked about in the show notes
and remember to use your voicefor justice today.
Dr. Bre (50:36):
Yay, thank you
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of
The Equity Hour with me, yourhost, Dr.
Tami.
To say I am beyond thrilledabout today's episode would be
an understatement, and I know Isay that all the time.
It's like I have a favoritechild, but all of them are my
favorite children.
But I am super excited about thetwo guests we have on the
podcast.
(00:23):
Today I have Dr.
Bre and Dr.
Kia with me today.
Hello ladies.
Thank you for joining us.
We are gonna dig into theirbook, which I'm very excited
about.
We're also gonna talk about, ofcourse, our equity journey and
the ways in which that they canboth continue to support you and
how you might be able to use thebook in your own work and your
(00:47):
own equity journey.
So, wanna do a quickintroduction and then I'll let
my two guests say, hi.
So Dr.
Bre is returning to the podcast.
Thank you for coming back, Bre.
And as you all know, Bre and Ihad some history together in
Illinois, but just to remindyou.
Dr.
Bre Evans Santiago has afoundation rooted in
(01:07):
vulnerability,intersectionality, and advocacy.
Dr.
Evans Santiago exemplifies trueleadership boasting over 25
years of diverse educationalexperience nationwide.
She leverage leverages herextensive background to inspire
and challenge audiences topursue just and equitable
learning environments for allchildren.
Dr.
(01:27):
Bre is dedicated to amplifyingbipoc and queer voices,
empowering educational leadersto foster a transformational
change, her commitment toinnovation and inclusion.
Drives her to navigate unchartedterritories and ensure every
voice has a seat at the table.
And we also have joining us, uh,Dr.
(01:48):
Kia.
Dr.
Kia is a psychologist,researcher, educator, and coach,
as well as the creator of thebridge to thriving.
Framework.
Co-author of the Civil RightsRoad to Deeper Learning, five
Essentials for Equity andCo-Editor of T is for Thriving
Blueprints for affirming Transand Gender Creative Lives and
learning in schools.
She leverages more than 25 yearsof experience in organizational
(02:11):
leadership, education, and youthdevelopment to offer research,
advising, coaching, and publicspeaking, as well as designs for
professional learningcurriculum.
Development and organizationalgrowth.
Dr.
Kia's work is grounded in theknowledge that innovation driven
by those furthest from powerimproves everyone's lives.
Welcome ladies.
Dr. Kia (02:33):
Hi.
So nice to be here.
Dr. Tami (02:35):
Okay, I just gotta say this like, hello powerhouses in
the room.
Like collectively, ladies, wehave like almost a century of
educational experience, which.
We are wise.
This group is a wise groupcoming to talk to you today.
Dr. Bre (02:54):
That's.
Dr. Kia (02:55):
I have my moments.
Dr. Tami (02:58):
We're just gonna roll in it, right?
Yes, yes.
We all have our moments, right?
We all have our moments.
But no, very impressive ladies.
I, I am just thrilled to haveyou both on the show today
because this idea of how we leadtransformation and who we speak
with and who we're doing thework for, and voices that are
privileged versus voices thatare silenced, um, really is an
(03:20):
important part.
Of this work and, and thejourney.
And so as I like to start offeach episode, because as we
know, equity, working indiversity, equity, inclusion is
a process.
We all have a journey.
We have a story into how we'vecome into this work, how we've
navigated and moved through thiswork.
And I always think it'simportant to share that this is
(03:42):
a consistent.
Learning pathway, right?
You're, you're meeting newpeople, you're understanding new
perspectives as you move throughand work with other people.
And that just makes us better,in the end.
And so I would love for you all,and, and whoever wants to go
first can go first.
Um.
To hear a little bit about yourjourney.
(04:03):
I know, and by the way, y'allwe're gonna get into this book,
but you can also read some morein depth if we don't get too
detailed about it in the introof their book, which by the way,
it's sitting right here.
And you know what, I'm sospecial, I just have to show you
this because Dr.
Bre gave me a signed copy.
Okay.
I know, right?
Heart.
Heart.
So, okay.
(04:24):
Who, who wants to jump in withtheir equity journey?
Dr. Bre (04:27):
Okay, I guess I'm starting.
Um, so I'll just start from, youknow, my professional journey,
thinking about, that's when Iwas really heavily involved with
advocacy, right?
So starting teaching in oh one,2001, I had legal insurance
since the first day I steppedinto a classroom identifying as
a lesbian.
I was always worried about, youknow, the idea behind, like
(04:52):
accusations of what can happen.
So I always, I started off withlegal insurance with that fear,
right?
Of thinking of who I was as aperson.
Teaching for several years.
I taught in California,Illinois, and Washington dc Um,
within that journey, learninglots of different things, but in
those spaces I could never tellwho my spouse was, right?
(05:13):
So like.
Um, especially in a lot ofschools, early on in the early
two thousands, there was no, youdon't get to, it's a don't ask,
don't tell time, you don't talkabout it.
And so my roommate would alwayscome and help me, you know, set
up my classroom and my roommatewould come and help with, you
know, field trips or whatever.
So no one really know that myroommate was my wife.
(05:35):
Um, and so dealing with thatearly on and always having to
deal with microaggression oreven just the unknown, identify
as a cis woman, very femmepresenting oftentimes.
So everybody's like, what doesyour husband do?
How is your husband?
And how's your wife and yourkids?
And it's like, oh, what do yousay?
(05:55):
Uh, he does, I don't know.
You know, like I had to alwayspretend or, or not say anything.
You know?
I ended up having a few friends,but the school wasn't like, I
didn't have an affinity group orpeople to help me go through my
journey.
Um, as being a queer teacher.
So, you know, fast forwardingthroughout my, my programs
(06:16):
master's program in my legalclass, I presented something on
laws regarding L-G-B-T-Q, andthen I said, it came out in my
class, you could hear a pindrop.
My partner that I presented withwalked out of the room crying
because she was offended that Ijust said that I was a lesbian,
(06:37):
a queer person.
So that was in oh five.
And then fast forward to mydissertation time, and this is
when we were in the
Dr. Tami (06:47):
Yes, this is when we met.
Dr. Bre (06:49):
Um, but in that space I met some people.
I'm like, cool, you're ineducation and you identify as
queer.
They didn't wanna be on mycommittee.
My, my dissertation was lookingat just cultural backgrounds
influence your decision to beout in schools.
Like maybe if you had moresupport.
You feel stronger to do it evenin the midst of all the things.
I thought that was myprediction, and so I was hoping
(07:09):
that I would have some of thatsupport.
I had to get people outside ofmy college to be able to help me
with my dissertation, to workthrough it, because even the own
educators in my space did notwanna be, they didn't want their
name on it.
They didn't wanna be known withL-G-B-T-Q stuff in 2015, 10
(07:32):
years ago.
Dr. Tami (07:33):
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you know, I didn't know thatpart because when we met I was
just finishing up.
My dissertation.
And so you were early in thedoctorate process and so I
wasn't there anymore by the timeyou started the dissertation,
(07:54):
but I remember we talked aboutwhat you wanted to study because
you know, I was looking atsocially just practices, right?
Like what happens when, youknow, student teachers leave?
You know, when we've talkedabout what best practices, what
happens when they leave and tryto go into a school district,
right?
Do they have the supports?
Are they able to do that?
Because, you know, people alwayssay like, teacher ed programs
(08:14):
don't do these things.
Mm.
That's not necessarily true itcan be and it can't be.
But also what is the environmentwe're sending these?
You know, folks into were, arethey able to feel safe to make
those, so those opportunitiesand decisions and to support all
of their students and all thethings.
So I didn't even know that Bre.
Wow.
I just learned something todaytoo.
But yeah.
No, that's so powerful.
Dr. Bre (08:35):
So that started my.
Advocacy for myself and myfrustrations and wanting to
support people.
Being a mother of fosterchildren of queer teens, our
house was one of the only housesin Kern County that would accept
queer teenagers.
So I really like, they wouldcall me to have a queer team
(08:57):
come and be a part of my spaceand I'm building it.
You know, there were all the,you know.
Teen groups and stuff that I wasa part of, but that was a big
part to me too, where I'm like,oh my gosh.
Even in the space that we'reliving, one of our queer teams
was unhoused because of it, youknow?
And so it's just like this, thisis reality five years ago um,
and then something else thatreally stands out to me just in
(09:20):
this space was that in the midstof writing my first book, the
Social Justice book for mistakeswe've made,
Dr. Tami (09:26):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Bre (09:26):
um.
I would do professionaldevelopment on it, and I became
an agenda item at a boardmeeting.
And, you know, then it was the,the critical race theory and the
concerns and things like that.
And so we had to go through thisprocess of me showing them what
I was teaching and me helpingthem see what I'm really doing,
(09:47):
whatever.
So cut to the end of it.
They had a question where itsaid, well, why do you, um, say.
Nontraditional families shouldbe elevated.
And I looked right in theirfaces and I said, because I'm a
nontraditional family.
I said, you teach my kids andyou don't acknowledge me in your
classrooms, and you could hear apenny drop.
(10:08):
Because they were like, oh.
Oh, well we didn't.
I, okay.
And I'm like, my kids arecontributing to your job.
But yet you're saying you can'ttalk about me as a queer parent.
Not just, you know, so those arelike my, ah, moments that really
fuel me.
In between there, of course, thecare and love from all the, the
(10:30):
college students and teams and,helping teachers with workshops
and things like that.
Um, to be able to develop, youknow, where we are at this
point.
But what pushes me for justiceand to help people have voices
is because of some of thosereally big experiences.
Dr. Tami (10:47):
yeah, yeah.
I can totally understand that.
Absolutely.
Dr.
Kia.
We're gonna, we're gonna comeback to some of the things you
said, Bre, but I wanna, I wannahear, I know, I, I, uh, yeah, I
got, yeah, I got some noteshere.
Uh, but I also wanna hear Dr.
Kia's story'cause I'm, I'm surewe're gonna find a way to thread
this all together.
Dr. Kia (11:08):
yeah, there's, there's definitely, uh, resonance and,
um, I was noticing, I was sortof going up to sort of 30,000
feet and coming back down to theground and, you know, thinking
about these experiences.
I think, uh, one of the thingsabout having minoritized
identities or, you know,experiencing oppression is that,
(11:30):
when we exist in these spaces,in this society, our attunement
to equity, our attunement toinclusion are attunement to
justice, and the presence orlack of diversity can sort of
become.
I think it starts in, in anintrinsic way.
But one of the things that I wasstruck by is, landing in
(11:53):
graduate school, is it's usuallyin higher ed that we are first
exposed to like the language,the meaningful, philosophical
and political thought, theanalysis that lets us not only
articulate our own experienceswith some sense of authority,
but also gain greaterunderstanding of how these
different.
Things, interact, thesedifferent sort of nuances around
(12:14):
power.
So in some ways my journeyreally began when I began, you
know, I have two parents whowere both, activistic in their
orientations.
My father was atelecommunications lawyer who
was very focused on minorityownership of media.
So radio stations, televisionstations, cable, that sort of
thing.
Um, and.
Paid very close attention to howthe law was being deployed to
(12:37):
silence or enable rightdiscourse and opportunity.
Um, and minority ownership ofmedia in part was very much a
civil rights concern.
And this is of course, back inthe 1970s, 1980s.
And of course, we see it as aconcern right now.
There's corporate owned mediathat is of course being deployed
to advanced fascism.
(12:57):
Then my mother is, I mean, inthis audience, probably pretty
well known, famous educatorwho's been very focused on
students getting their needs metand teachers being supported
and, um, advancing civil rights,and equity through legislation
and policy.
I mean, some of these fightslast decades, right?
(13:18):
Some of these fights have beengoing on for as long as I've
been going on,
Dr. Tami (13:21):
Yeah, I was just thinking that, I'm like the, the
journey along people's like, oh,this is new.
No, no, no, it's not.
And the pushback's not neweither.
Dr. Kia (13:31):
right, like, and I'm knocking on a half a century.
So this is like, you know, thishas been going on.
So the for, and so.
We could get into, being a mixedkid or, you know, and claiming
racial identity.
Am I black, am I mixed?
Am I, et cetera, et cetera.
We could get into, queeridentity.
Um, for me, for me it was, Iknew who I was.
(13:54):
Went deep into the closet andthen started to emerge when I
was getting my master's inteaching.
And I had a really powerfulteacher, um, Michael Sadowski,
who created all of this safetyand spaciousness.
If you're not familiar with hiswork, he's written.
A number of really powerfulbooks, about safety, about
representation, about, um,L-G-B-T-Q and same gender loving
(14:18):
kids, um, in students in school.
So like, we're in the samelittle ecosystem of recognizing
that the classroom is, and BellHooks talks about this.
So many people talk about this,the classroom is a liberation
space.
It's really a powerful space.
So I didn't see myselfrepresented.
(14:39):
But, in a number of ways when Iwas growing up.
I did start tutoring when I wasin high school, a lot of my
peers, because it was just clearthat they, they were having
difficulty in classes, but theywere brilliant and there was a
disconnect between, you know,the, the pedagogy and the
student.
Um, and so that was really myfirst kind of glimpse into this
(15:01):
sort of inequity, reallystarting to understand that
there was this inequity that wascoming into play that was
failing to.
See the whole student failing toaddress their particular needs
that, you know, and um, I wasalso a teenager, so like, what
did I know?
I was like, I can help you withmath homework.
You know what I mean?
But I was thinking, and I wasthinking about this, how we're
(15:22):
always being and becoming at thesame time.
Right.
You had mentioned thatbeginning, always sort of on
this journey of discovery andand development but that really
was, um, my, my parents had hadto fight for me when I was in
school, fight to give me, like,they'd have to fight the school
and the district just to allowme to take a test to see if I
could place into.
(15:42):
You know, a course of study thatgave me more advanced, teaching
and opportunity and all thesethings and everything was gate
kept, everything, everything,everything.
And, you know, have to go in andfight a teacher trying to punish
me for existing instead of,actually paying attention to
what I was doing.
So it's like, just, it's, it's,the lineage is throughout, but
(16:03):
similarly to y'all in graduateschool.
Well, similarly to you, Bre, butdifferent, when I was in my
graduate program, my focusquickly became thriving, at the
margins and specifically blackL-G-B-T-Q and same gender loving
young people.
So, you know, being young, beingblack and being queer, trans, or
(16:23):
non-binary.
Um, and most of the people in myprogram really couldn't, like,
this wasn't their area of study.
This wasn't their area ofcomfort.
Now this was, you know, right atthe, I think you, you said it
was 2015 for you.
That was the very beginning ofme and my doctoral journey.
So it was just, in that samekind of time period.
(16:45):
I was lucky though, becausepeople who didn't feel
comfortable in the subject areawere still supportive.
So I had people who were like, Ican't really help you deepen
your scholarship in this way,but I'm gonna remove barriers.
And that made a huge difference.
And I think that's alsoillustrative of what.
What we can do in this equitywork, even when we're not, like
(17:05):
our identity's not implicated.
Right.
Um, because I had peoplegenuinely just go, I'm gonna get
that outta your way.
I'm gonna get that outta yourway.
I'm gonna make sure you get thisfunding.
I'm gonna give you thisassistantship.
And allowed me to really focuson what I was trying to study
deeply.
But I also did have to, youknow.
People outside of myinstitution.
(17:25):
So I reached out to Ed BrockenBrown.
Woo.
It was so amazing.
And so Ed was not only a part ofmy committee, but was also a
part of my, you know, growthjourney while I was in graduate
school, even though he wasn't atmy university.
Lance McCready part of myjourney, but not at my
university.
And then there were some folkswho I was introduced to, um, by
an outgoing scholar who said,you need to meet these incoming
(17:46):
people'cause they're gonna beanchoring you so.
That support matters a greatdeal.
It would have been a verydifferent experience if I hadn't
had that.
I think I'm just like journeyingall over the place.
But from a diversity standpoint,I would say, uh, education has
been crucial.
Being exposed to people who aredifferent to me, who had
(18:09):
different experiences,backgrounds, upbringings, and so
much of that really justhappened in college, which to me
drives the point home of howimportant it is to get kids
there.
Challenges of those spaces, notwithstanding.
Right.
Um.
Dr. Tami (18:23):
Well, yeah, and I, I think, just very timely, right?
The fact that people,legislation and decisions are
starting to make that an evenstronger barrier of access
because we're looking at, now,not just.
Um, systems that are in place toput in barriers, gatekeeping
that's happening.
But now we also have financialor a lack of access to financial
(18:46):
resources, right?
To make this space, accessible,especially higher levels of
study, like graduate level,doctoral level.
Like where are we gonna get thediversity of thought?
That makes us all better.
Um.
Kia, you said something aboutremoving barriers and I just
(19:06):
really thought that that wasvery powerful.
So when we talk about, andpeople talk about wanting to be
an ally or support the work,like, I don't know what I need
to do.
That's exactly what you can doIf you are sitting in a space or
have power in a space or have aprivileged identity that can
allow you to open doors.
Remove barriers, right?
(19:27):
Provide funding, whatever it is.
That is what you can do, right?
You don't Go ahead.
Dr. Kia (19:34):
Yeah.
So related to that, and comingback to what you were talking
about, Bre, um, there so much ofthat happens in the space of
relationship.
Dr. Tami (19:43):
Mm
Dr. Kia (19:44):
I have access to this person, we have trust.
I can have this conversationwith them that shifts the way
they're approaching thissituation, that institutional
power that's tied torelationship.
But then also so much of this isabout.
Like Bre, there was somethingpowerful about you being in
that, you know, board space andforcing them to reckon with your
(20:09):
existence and being reallycourageous to speak up and not
only identify your truth, yourreality, but look them in the
eye and invite them to sit withthe discomfort of their bias,
their bigotry.
And that's a thing too, right?
So.
All of this.
Part of what fuels a lot of whatwe see is segregation and
(20:34):
secrecy, and part of what fuelsthat is that there are so few of
us sometimes in these spacesthat like safety is a legitimate
concern.
Stability is a legitimateconcern.
So we need coalition, we needeach other, and we need to build
these relationships sometimes atthe level of one person to one
person, build the trust, buildthe, you know me, so that there
(20:54):
can be kind of like rippleeffects from that.
Dr. Tami (20:58):
Yeah.
Dr. Kia (20:59):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami (20:59):
Yeah, the power of relationship, and that makes me
also think about that leads tocommunity, and I think that is a
huge part of this work.
I mean, even just the three ofus sitting here today, right, is
a power of this communitybecause I met Bre.
Bre knows you now you are herewith me.
(21:21):
And then we get to see anddiscuss and find these
differences, but alsocommonalities, right?
Amongst our experience and whatwe're here to do.
Like what is important to us inthis work.
Um.
I can't remember which one ofyou said it, but I think it was
actually a thread in both ofthem.
(21:42):
But I think it's important totalk about,'cause I think people
are feeling very nervous aboutthe current environment, the
anti, DEI work, we saw a hugejump of performative DEI
statements and all these thingsafter George Floyd, and then
we've now seen this like sh.
You know, pull back.
(22:03):
Um, there's a lot of fear,right?
That people have seen executiveorders saying that words these
words aren't allowed andthey're, you know, going through
and scrubbing them from spaces,you know, and there's just so
much happening, people areafraid of losing, you know,
funding.
(22:24):
And part of when I'm in some ofthese conversations is exactly,
what we alluded to while youwere, while you were sharing, I
think Kia, like this isn't new,right?
There has always been pushback,there has always been fear
around this work.
Um, but I would love to hearkind of a little bit about what
you all think about this.
I don't even call it renewedbecause it's not, it's just more
(22:46):
overt than it has been maybe ina little while.
Um, and how that.
Can push it back and, you know,and push back against your work,
but even enhances the importanceof your book that you've put
together.
And probably a little bit aboutthe why you guys came to putting
your book together.
Dr. Kia (23:08):
I mean, I have a lot of thoughts.
Dr. Tami (23:11):
I know, and that was like a huge like question.
I'm like, I'm like, I'm likedeep.
I'm like, let's.
Peel back some of the onion.
We might not get through thewhole onion, but we're, we're
gonna get there little places.
Dr. Kia (23:24):
Well, one of the first things when you were talking
about performative DEI wasthinking about.
There were a lot of goodintentions and aspirations, and
then there was a lack ofinfrastructure and a lack of
analysis.
So critical consciousness isimportant because what it
invites is a meaningfulengagement with the political
and the way that the politicalis material, right?
(23:47):
Not just in relationship toresources like money and
funding, but also material inthe sense of these, these things
have impacts on our body.
Et cetera.
These things are, you know, youcan't divorce the political from
the body, you can't divorcethat, so there were a lot of
aspirations and intentions witha lack of meaningful political,
(24:09):
um, grounding and analysis, andthat the political grounding and
analysis also relies oncommunity.
And one of the challenges thatwe keep, it's a community of
people who are willing to bepart of your growth trajectory.
Hold you in your ignorance andyour growth as you become
something else.
And that's very difficult in aculture of judgment and
(24:30):
punitively and ity where there'slots and lots and lots of harm
that's happened where there's ahistory.
So now I'm supposed to kind ofbe in this, you know, growth
journey with a bunch of peoplewho I can't actually trust
because they've already doneharm to me and I may have done
harm, and so on and so.
But this is some of, so much ofthis comes back to the
(24:53):
interpersonal, so I just wantedto say that because, but the
other thing that I thought thatwas really interesting was you
talked about the shift indiscourse.
There have always been bulliesand bullies are bad faith.
So I was thinking aboutColumbia.
Columbia kowtow to the Trumpadministration, to Trump
specifically to theadministration, and got punished
(25:15):
anyway.
And so, you know, it was veryinteresting, and I think this is
a lesson to everyone.
There is no safety, meaningfulsafety, long-term safety in
capitulating to bullies.
And this is again, why we needeach other, why we need
community, why we need the ACLU, why we need the NAACP why we
(25:37):
need coalitions, and you know,because.
They will always take more.
None of this is actually aboutrace or gender or sexual
orientation.
None of it, it's about money.
All of this is a resource powergrab and trans people are
scapegoats in this moment andit's easy to scapegoat a
(26:01):
community that feels socially orculturally different to the
mainstream.
And that is so small, right?
That, you know, the rest of uswho are not trans have to like
wrap around the communitybecause it's protecting them
because that's the right thingto do, but it's also protecting
everybody else.
(26:22):
Right?
And that is a political analysisthing too.
You have to understand thatthese fools don't give a about.
I don't know if I can swear
Dr. Tami (26:32):
You can, oh, please go ahead.
No worries.
This is not a children'spodcast.
Dr. Kia (26:38):
Right.
These are spiritually bereft.
These are spiritually bereftpeople deploying power to make
themselves feel somewhat wholeand just failing completely in
the assignment.
They don't care.
So part of our job is to bereally courageous and understand
that we're not actually saferwhen we don't speak up.
We are safer when we do,
Dr. Tami (26:58):
Yeah, because they're coming for you next, right?
Like
Dr. Kia (27:01):
or they're coming for me now.
I mean.
Dr. Tami (27:04):
now.
Next, and like, it's not gonnastop.
Dr. Kia (27:08):
That they, these are, these are, these are efforts
that are eating everything up intheir path.
Our planet, our spirits, ourchildren, like they, they will
consume everything until theycan't consume anything else.
And then all they're left withis themselves and that's when
(27:28):
they self-destruct.
You just kind of wish they wouldjust self-destruct beforehand,
but this is how they do that,just.
Us all with them.
Dr. Tami (27:37):
Yeah.
Dr. Bre (27:37):
Yeah.
I, I see it as an analy.
So I'm thinking about right nowtoo, and I'm gonna go on a
little bit about my own family,because this hits home for me in
ways that is not okay.
So, um, but I see it as like ina boxing match.
And I don't know if you, youknow, even like boxing and it's
kind of, it's a lot, but I'm asports person.
(27:59):
But, just thinking about like,by the end it's like you're so
damn tired.
You still keep getting it leftand right, like it's just no
matter what.
And then it's like, Nope, butyou're not done.
Get up.
You're not done.
Get up.
You're not done.
And that's, this is what thatfeels like.
Um, like we can't stop.
(28:20):
We can't, and it freaking hurts.
It hurts.
We're losing people left andright.
There's blood being drawn.
There's, there's pain.
It's a lot.
But we can get up.
Get up.
Like we have to be, like yousaid, Kia, that community.
Right.
Really finding those affinityspaces and building upon.
I see it so much within thebullying as like wanting to make
(28:42):
us fail, wanting us to quit,wanting us to cry, wanting us
to, and Kia's, right.
We got cell phones.
We're on this, we're, peoplewill find us, people will try.
Whatever it is, there are waysthat people could be in and out
of whatever we do anyway.
Right.
So when we can and when we havethe opportunities to name it, to
(29:03):
say it and to smile, I thinkthat pisses them off more than
anything.
You think about, you know, whenit's like someone slaps you and
you laugh, like bring it, youknow?
I feel like that's how we haveto be like it's the resistance
in that where it's like.
Yeah, keep smacking me'cause I'mgonna keep laughing in your
(29:24):
face.
I'm gonna keep smiling.
I'm a but that takes so much,like, I've talked to this takia
about this where it's likeliving hour to hour sometimes.
Um, you know, we used to be ableto say, oh, have a good day and
you had a good day.
There's so much, and, and thisis kind of separate, but being,
in my role as associate dean, wesee our student like ice.
Like, oh my God, like there's alot going on in California right
(29:46):
now because we fight back.
And it pisses him off.
And so it's like trying to beviolent and pull us down in
whatever way is possible.
And in all of that space, I'mlike, I had a good hour.
This right now is a good hour.
So it's like recognizing andacknowledging those spaces to
continue to build us up to fightone more round, build us up to
(30:07):
continue to do that.
You know, that work for a while.
I went through a hard time.
I would probably say what,January to March.
Um.
My spouse is trans and it's,it's open.
I'm not outing him at all.
It's, he's in our book, youknow, we'll talk about it more
in a second, but we live inprivilege.
We're okay.
(30:28):
I got good insurance.
My spouse is okay, but I can'tBut it's the, like, I can't help
but think about the space inwhich he comes from and the
space that we have to supportand love and care for.
And I think about these kids andI think about, you know.
Every day that they're fightingto just wake up and to live.
(30:49):
Ugh.
So I just, any, if anything,it's building my, you know, my
strength to, to fight for peoplethat can't, or, or, or are
afraid to, or, you know, so it'slike this is the time for that,
you know?
Dr. Kia (31:04):
Just to add to your boxing metaphor, you talked
about boxing.
Boxing, you have corners andthere's a ref.
And there's a point in therounds, right?
And I feel like in a lot ofways, those of us who have
resource or power or position,who are, you know, we need to be
the corners.
We need to be the refs, right?
(31:24):
We need to be the crowd.
So that folks, because you, itis not an individual thing,
right?
Um, it is, it is a and I wasthinking also about that.
Somebody, there's a postfloating around the interwebs,
of course, about how hope is notlike a, a delicate thing.
Hope is, you know, uh, you know,scrappy, bloody knuckled, rising
(31:47):
from the ghost, spitting out atooth like that really is it.
And, I love that you brought upthe, the point about running
interference for another sportsmetaphor, running interference
for young people who have lesspower and are still becoming and
need to know how to fight, youknow, but also need to have
(32:08):
space to rest.
Dr. Tami (32:09):
Yeah.
I, I have, I have, oh my gosh, Ihave so many things going on in
my brain right now.
Like, um, it's such a good way,right?
I love this idea about we, weare in the corners.
And because for me, when yousaid that, that made me think,
'cause while you were talkingBrea, I'm thinking this is also
why rest as a resistance is partof the narrative.
(32:29):
Because if we're in our corners,then that means.
I, I have support so I can rest.
Like we can't always be the onethrowing the punches all the
time.
So maybe another sports metaphoris maybe it's a little bit more
of like wrestling where we tagteam in and then somebody else
hops in for a minute and takesit.
'cause I'm tired right now andso I need to rest.
(32:49):
But oh, like, yes.
I love that idea.
Like we're in the corner.
So find someone that can supportyou in your corner or be.
Also, I think, vocal, right?
So people know you are there tocome to you as a, a support, as
a someone to lean into, to talkto.
(33:10):
Um, I think that is one of themost important things.
I had someone on my podcastrecently who asked me if I
planned on changing the name ofmy podcast.
Because it's called the equityhour and you know, equity is not
a, I was like, absolutely not.
I said, in fact, this is a timewhere I need to use it even
more.
I said, so because, she had beenon a pre, a different podcast
(33:32):
and they were changing theirname and doing all these things.
I was like, oh no, that's notme.
That is not my style.
Like, I'm like, I'm doublingdown.
I'm like, I want people to knowthis is what I'm here for.
This is what I've always beenhere for, and.
This is a safe space to come andhave these conversations and to,
to, to share these stories.
Um, and you know, this remindsme of your, oh God, what is it
(33:54):
called?
My brain is, I'm having aperimenopause moment, y'all in
the moment.
Your book Dedication, Bre,thinking back about to your
family, right?
Um, and you wrote about Bobby,where we all have a space to
thrive, and I know Bobby was thecatalyst for the book, so.
Um, I think that just fits in sowell, right?
(34:17):
Like the space to thrive foreveryone, having people in your
corner.
So I would love, and I know it'sin your book, but the journey of
how you can, you wanted to writethis book based on your
experience, for your family andwith Bobby and coming together
with Kia and all the amazingauthors.
That you guys have inside thebook.
(34:37):
It is so powerful, y'all.
And I'm gonna give away a copy,by the way, because somebody
needs this.
Yes, we need this book.
We need this book out in theworld.
So I'm gonna stop talkingbecause this is your guys' book
and I wanna hear, I just wannahear about it.
I wanna hear about how it cametogether.
I know you wrote about it, but Iknow the audience hasn't heard,
um, about it yet
Dr. Bre (34:55):
Yeah.
Um, so yes, so, so Bobbydefinitely was a main component
of this because, you know, as ateacher, and you know, my spouse
and I, we've been together for17 years.
So we've grown and learned and,started out as a lesbian couple,
and then as time progressed,Bobby came out and we worked
through that together and we'restill together and, and
(35:17):
thriving.
And it's, it's changed for mewith my identity and, and
orientation and things likethat.
And the same with him.
So like, it's been a journeytogether.
But in the midst of that, Iasked him, I said, why did it
take you so long?
Like, why did you wait so longto come out and why?
You know, and his response like.
It.
It fueled me.
It broke me and then fueled mebecause he said, I didn't know
(35:39):
people like me existed.
And you're what it was.
Oh God, so many years ago.
He was probably like in his latetwenties.
I didn't know people like meexisted.
And so, because in our academiaworld, we've met more queer
people.
I was, you know, an advisor forthis space and working with the,
(36:00):
the students and working withfaculty and staff where we met
and had a circle of queer,non-binary trans folks where
Bobby was like, oh, this is me.
Oh, here I am.
This is who I am.
And I've seen, you know, so Iwas like, it's about time.
Like it didn't.
It didn't shock me.
(36:22):
Um, you know, I do, I do missthe girl sometimes.
Like I, I've been, you know, sothere's that.
But, but, but personally, Iasked him, I said, you didn't
learn, like teachers didn't helpyou see this, or he said, no in
school.
He never even knew about theword trans or what it meant.
And so I was like, oh no, weneed to do something about it.
(36:42):
And then the second part aboutthat, so.
There are people that are alliesand wanna do this work, and
they're trying to do these likelessons and do these things.
And sometimes it's more harmfulthan helpful, but they don't
mean to do that.
Right.
But it's because they don't havethe knowledge behind it or the,
the, the empathy orunderstanding the people and
(37:04):
what's really happening whenyou're doing these lessons.
And so I said we need to helpour allies.
To get these lessons out therebecause when I did a small
survey, teachers told me, um,it's like one of my articles for
California, like looking at theFair Act teacher said, I know
about it, I wanna do it, but Idon't have the resources and I
(37:24):
don't have the materials, and Idon't, and I don't know where to
go.
And so I was like, well then weneed to here.
We need to do it for you.
And so that's where that camefrom.
Um, was thinking like, we needsomething right now, and
something that can help affirmpeople like Bobby, but then also
make sure we're meeting thestandards and all the things
from top to bottom where there'sno question asked, here's an
(37:47):
inclusive lesson that you cantake right now and use.
So that's, that's my like.
Idea behind it of where, wheresome of that came from.
And then Kia's like beautifulframework.
Oh my gosh.
So I'll let her talk too, butum.
That idea behind thriving andwho we are and what we need to
(38:08):
be.
Okay.
Like we didn't want a book thatwas about this bad thing happens
and there's this bad thing.
We wanted to celebrate and talkabout the good and how we can
make it a positive schoolenvironment.
So I'll let Kia add on and shareas to like why she jumped on or
what and what, you know, shecontributed, which was so much.
Um, but it just became thisbeautiful, beautiful project
(38:28):
that couldn't have come at abetter time.
Right.
So.
Dr. Tami (38:32):
absolutely.
Absolutely.
And you know, I love that theteachers are like, I want to do
this right?
And so.
I think that's an importantmessage too.
If you're, you know, you wannabe an ally and support the work,
but you're not sure how, andyou, so you don't wanna do that
harm asking the question so thatyou can find those resources so
(38:52):
you can do it in a way that issupportive and affirming.
I think, you know, that's notalways easy for people to do.
Like it's asking for help,right.
Or saying, I don't know,something.
Um.
So I love that they asked that.
So now we have this book.
So, and Kia, I wanna hear about,your part of the journey of the
book.
Dr. Kia (39:11):
Yeah, it was wonderful.
So Bre, uh, invited me to jointhe project, which was
wonderful, specifically to bringin kind of the thriving work.
Before I get into that, I justwanted to say, I feel like the
theme of like aspiration versusinfrastructure is coming up
again where it's like, I reallywanna do this, but I'm just not
sure how, I don't know how to,you know, deploy it under my
(39:33):
specific conditions.
Um, and we talk a little bitabout this also in the book,
just like.
How, depending on your context,you might need to approach this
work in different ways.
And so we brought in some otherscholars who have really thought
about how to incorporate,transgender, creative young
(39:53):
people into classrooms, intoschools, into the work.
Um, because policies aredifferent in different states
because the conditions vary.
So we don't go into great depth,but we do touch on it and point
people towards other really, youknow, powerful work.
The what we, in ourconversation, I, I, we did
decide we had the choice betweenmaking it like a super academic
(40:15):
book versus, uh, more just sortof like light touch come on in.
This is very accessible.
You do not have to look allthese words up in the
dictionary.
We did, I don't think we everused the word ontology, but
like, like.
We, um, we wanted this book tobe something people could really
just plug and play.
Like, oh, okay, this is, youknow, doable.
(40:36):
Um, and then we grounded it inactually three frameworks.
So one of the things about thethriving, the Bridge to Thriving
framework is it's really, um,it's really recognizing that the
hardships and the traumas andthe harms are real.
We do have to pay attention tothem.
And this is like, uh, ToniMorrison talking about, you
(40:57):
know, the work of, uh, racism isdistruction.
There's a point at which,especially for those of us who
are experiencing these things,we can become completely
consumed in the survival workand not able to really focus on
building the thing that we wannasee instead.
Right.
And in order to build the thingwe wanna see instead, while
(41:17):
we're also surviving, we needeach other.
So that's why community is thefoundation of the Thriving
framework.
So this was a book that wasgrounded in the, let's imagine,
beyond the BS that we'resurviving, right?
And really give people somethingthat moves us toward the thing
that we actually wanna see andbuild in the world.
So that's one piece.
(41:38):
But then there were two otherframeworks in the mix.
One was, SJ Miller's, uh, verymenopause moment.
Um, I'm not going to say thename of the framework correctly
right now, and I am mortified.
It is in the book, but it's, uh,essentially a framework tied to
gender diversity.
I am sorry, SJ.
(42:00):
Oh my god.
Um,
Dr. Tami (42:01):
Sj, I will make sure it is listed in the show notes
for sure.
Dr. Kia (42:05):
Yeah, gender complexity specifically and inviting
educators to really understand,um, that, you know, you can't
like look at a person and knowtheir gender.
That deployment of gender in ahuman being's experience can be
quite complex in and of itself.
Gender identity complexities,framework.
Oh, thank you brain.
(42:26):
I was like, it's in there.
I know it's in there.
Um, so.
There's that piece, and wewanted to bring that in because
of course, we're reallyexplicitly talking about trans
and gender creative youngpeople, and this framework is
directly tied to education andeducational spaces.
We also, of course, tapped intoGoldie Muhammad's, historically
responsive literacy frameworkand goldie's.
(42:49):
Anchored into race andethnicity, and we, you know,
took it and translated aroundgender, identity specifically.
But this, the importance of thisis where critical consciousness
comes into, and it's across allthree of the frameworks
thriving, uh, gender identity,complexity, and historical, um,
literacy.
Understanding not only who weare and who we've been and who
(43:10):
our forebearers are and what ourmodels are, so we can see
ourselves like Bobby needed to.
Right, so we can see ourselves,so kids can see themselves, um,
and figure out who they are inthe broad project of humanity.
But also so that we're at tunedinto the politics of, as we were
just talking about, the waythese things keep recurring in
(43:31):
human history.
This is not the first time transand gender creative people have
been targeted for, essentiallyscapegoated, um, as a way to get
people accustomed to egregiousviolence.
So that a bunch of really greedypeople can steal everything they
can touch and everything theycan't, like, this isn't even the
first time we've seen this andthere are also resistance
(43:53):
histories that are important.
So we were bringing that into,again, with the orientation to
not only acknowledging thatthere are survival needs, but
also that that is not the wholestory and we deserve to thrive,
we're we deserve to thrive.
Dr. Tami (44:09):
absolutely.
Oh, that's so powerful becausewe know that.
We hear a lot about trauma, likethis negative story about a
particular group and all thething, the horrible things that
they've experienced.
Right?
And that isn't what makes up aperson or a, a group of people
even, like the resilience, thejoy, the connection, the, all of
(44:34):
these richness of humanity iswhat makes up a group.
Oh yeah.
Dr. Kia (44:40):
And the defiance, which is what this book is,'cause we
gonna be popular.
And they'll look right.
No, but it's defiance.
It's the refusal to change thename of your podcast.
It's the refusal to be quiet.
It's the refusal to allow theignorance to be the loudest
thing in the room.
The defiance.
Dr. Tami (44:57):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Oh, this like gives me chills,y'all.
Like I just love, you know, weare here to, yes, we are here to
thrive and we are here to thrivein community.
And even if.
I think sometimes we pinourselves against each other in
(45:18):
different, you know, groups,right?
Like my struggle is harder thanyour struggle but, but really
it's all grounded in very muchwhat you've been saying here
that aspiration in theinfrastructure, it's all the
same.
It's all the same.
It what's causing all of thesethings.
Yes.
Like, and I think that is themost important part.
(45:39):
'cause when we come together.
That power, the def.
Oh, I love that idea ofdefiance.
I love that.
'cause I am a sassy girl and Ihave tried to not be sassy and
people will be like, you knowwho you were talking to?
I was like, I do, but you knowwhat?
Mm.
I don't work that way.
Like you are doing things like.
I legitimately got fired from ateaching job because I don't
(46:03):
even know if you know the storyre, but I got fired from a
teaching job because I wasstanding up for these kids.
My principal did not like it wasa predominantly low income black
student population.
Didn't like that the studentsresponded were excelling, the
students were excelling.
So we tried to shift my teachingrole so I could have less
impact.
That didn't work.
Very frustrated, right?
So instead he tried to say I wasa bad teacher.
(46:25):
Tried to fire me while I was onbedrest, by the way, having
pregnant with my child.
Totally illegal.
But anyway, so I sue thedistrict.
I'm like, I don't feel bad.
I don't feel bad that I'mstanding up for the.
You are wrong.
You're wrong about children.
And so I say this all the time.
I will always say and do what Iknow to be right and best for
people.
And if other people have aproblem with that, then whatever
(46:45):
that consequence is, I'm finewith it because it usually sets
me onto a better pathway.
Because when we stand up foreach other, when we use our
voices for each other, we allbenefit from that.
And I know people are like, oh,that's really scary.
Yeah, it can be scary.
Like it can't be scary peoplelike, oh, I don't wanna lose my
job.
(47:05):
I don't wanna lose, I didn'twanna lose my job.
I didn't do it thinking I wasgonna lose my job.
But at the end of the day, can Ilive with myself if I'm not
saying things that I know are,you know, morally wrong or
harming people, that itshouldn't be in any of those
things.
That's just not.
(47:26):
I just can't do it personally.
Right.
Um, and I think the more we talkabout how we do that, I think it
empowers people to feel likethey can, they can do it too.
Dr. Kia (47:35):
I think that's right.
I think there's, you know,there's the moral dimension,
there's also material dimension.
So, um, there is increasingly,uh, a movement toward building
hyper-local mutual aid networksand communities.
And I have a link that I'llshare with you and maybe it can
go in the show notes because Ido think, especially if you're,
you know, if you're on your own,you don't have community around
(47:58):
you, your family's in anotherstate or whatever it is, you
know, the moral is easier whenthe material is more secure and
human beings need, we need toknow, like, I'm gonna be able to
eat, I'm gonna have a roof overmy head, you know, I can get
care if I need it.
And so we need each other forthat.
So I'll share that resource andhopefully that'll also be, um.
(48:18):
Something that helps people feelmore courageous.
Dr. Tami (48:21):
Absolutely.
Oh my gosh.
You guys, like, I feel like Icould talk to you for absolutely
another hour, and I love thatabout the podcast, but I know it
is time for us to wrap up.
I will make sure everyone, one,I'll put a link to the book,
watch out for the giveaway.
I'm gonna do that on, on mysocials.
I, I'm gonna put a link for Dr.
(48:41):
Bre, for Dr.
Kia so you can access theirwork.
Anything we've talked about inthis podcast will be in the show
notes.
Um.
I do wanna wrap up.
Do you, either one of you wannashare like a quick tip for
people that are like looking tomaybe start this work, access
this work?
Before we wrap up,
Dr. Bre (48:59):
I'll share just real quick, it's, you know, a couple
sentences.
My, my thought is don't not doanything like we're in a space
now and everybody may not, likeyou said, some might be scared
to step in the forefront or tosay something, but, um, lives
are at stake.
Dr. Tami (49:16):
Mm.
Dr. Bre (49:17):
I can't say that any other way.
Lives are at stake.
So whatever capacity you have,whatever that looks like,
whether it's financiallysupporting a group, whether it's
buying books for people to do abook study, whether it's going
to a protest, saying the thing,teaching the way you wanna
teach, whatever that is, butdon't not do anything.
(49:38):
Um, I think at this point, likewe said, the resistance, the,
the, the joy, the care we haveto be in each other's corners.
And this is a very pertinenttime.
And honestly, I don't see itgetting better anytime soon.
It's, we're gonna have to gomaybe some, some, what do they
say?
Like the overtime, like 12round.
Like, I don't know, but I justfeel like, um, we have to stay
(50:01):
strong and support each other.
So just don't not do anything.
Yeah.
So that's, that's what I couldsay at this moment, you know?
Um, and whatever that lookslike.
Dr. Kia (50:11):
the way it gets better is by us fighting now.
Dr. Tami (50:15):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kia (50:16):
I'll send another resource tied to that too.
What you can do.
Dr. Bre (50:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Tami (50:20):
Well, thank you Dr.
Bre.
Thank you, Dr.
Kia.
It has been such a pleasuretalking with you both.
Thank you all for joining us foranother episode of The Equity
Hour.
You can find everything we'vetalked about in the show notes
and remember to use your voicefor justice today.
Dr. Bre (50:36):
Yay, thank you
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