September 19, 2025 • 36 mins
Motion Capture technology has been around since the late 90s in feature films, starting with Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. Spielberg has had his own run of utilizing MoCap in various capacities with The Adventures of Tintin, The BFG, and Ready Player One. In lieu of that, we took the opportunity to do a movie draft where we drafted our favorite MoCap performances. Spoiler: Andy Serkis was of course taken more than once.
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Andrew Fossier
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
It wasn't closely What's the secret thing?
Just got to find something you love to do and then do it for
the rest of your life. I don't want to be a product of
my environment, I want my environment to be a product of
(00:29):
me. Hello and welcome to the
Establishing Shot, a podcast where we do deep dives and two
directors and their filmographies.
I am your host, Eli Price, and we are here on episode 110 of
(00:52):
the podcast. Yeah, I'm excited to have Andrew
Focio back on with me from last week.
We talked about Ready Player Onelast week, had a good time doing
that, talked for a long time. I looked at the timer and I was
like, oh wow, we're still going.But it was, it was really good
conversation. Really enjoyed that.
(01:13):
So yeah, go back and listen to that and also go back and listen
to that because we talked a lot about motion capture and that
and what we're going to do todayin honor of Ready Player One,
but also the BFG and adventures of 10/10, we're going to do a
motion capture performances, movie draft.
(01:35):
So we're going to be basically taking turns drafting the best,
in our opinions, motion capture performances.
So yeah, Andrew, good to have you back.
Thanks for coming on. Andrew shared last week some
(02:00):
movies he's been watching, so you can go listen to that or and
you can also go back to the Twilight Zone episode and hear
his Spielberg, you know, introduction and all that.
And you've been on other you've been on you were on the
Christmas movie draft episode and you were on the tenant
episode. And so, yeah, we've done some,
(02:22):
we've had quite a little number of handful of episodes together
now. So yeah.
But but today we're doing a movie draft, motion capture
performances. I thought right before we kick
off the draft, I would pose the question, what makes a motion
performance great, Motion capture performance great.
(02:45):
Did you have any thoughts on that?
Is that something you've even thought about?
Because if you haven't, I wouldn't blame you.
No, Yeah, Well, I, I think, I think the thing that I would say
is probably just the integrationwith the story and like the the
(03:09):
mocap happening for the character and and they're
representing the character versus it's, it looks cool.
I guess. I don't know.
Sure. Yeah, yeah, I I think that's
probably the the main thing and,and, and for this draft, the one
I thought about the most was trying to make, because every
(03:31):
Avengers movie is on here, everyMarvel movie is on here.
Trying trying to make it where it's like, I think of that as a
mocap movie, like a movie. Like I can see the actor in the
mocap suit doing mocap. It's not just.
Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense.
Yeah, I, I was going to say, like, I think I think one of the
(03:53):
things that stands out in motioncapture performances are
twofold. Like 1 is like the physical
performance you get. So, you know, you get these
digitally rendered characters, but like the physicality of
emotion capture performance is so huge because you you get a
(04:14):
lot of personality of the actor in those in, in the, in the
physicality of the characters. Yeah.
And you get also like, you know,the personality, the realness
that the kind of human humannessof the character, even when, you
know, I'm not going to name anything specific because we're
(04:36):
about to be drafting these against each other.
But like, even say, when it's not a human character, you can
still get like humanity built into that character because of
the physicality of the actor being captured in motion
capture. And then the other aspect that I
think is big is the facial expressions.
(04:59):
One of the things that I've learned covering these three
Spielberg movies that have mocapis that they do a lot of work
kind of nailing down their facial expressions because you
kind of have to. It's almost like more stage play
esque in the way they have to act with their face than film.
(05:21):
Because a lot of times in film you're getting close-ups.
You can pick up like, you know, little minor facial expressions
that say a lot in film. Whereas like on the stage
everything's big. You have to act big physically.
You, your facial expressions are, are like overdone and over
the top because you're on a stage far away from people that
(05:45):
have to see you, what you're doing and get the emotions, you
know, across that divide. And it's, it's a little similar
with motion capture performances.
You have to little, you have to over express a little more than
you you normally would if you were just your face was being
filmed so that it comes so that emotion that you're trying to
(06:06):
express comes through in the digital character.
So those were the two things I was thinking about when I was
thinking what what does it take to make a good motion capture
performance? Yeah, that's good.
Yeah. Yeah, we're going to we're going
to jump into this thing. We did some I did some research
(06:27):
earlier when we were when we hadhopped on and Andrew has had two
times picking 1st and drafts we did against each other.
And so I'm, I'm taking the liberty to take first pick in
this one. So yeah, I'm just going to jump
right into it and take the the obvious first pick, Andy Serkis
(06:51):
as Gollum. And I guess I'll take him in the
Two Towers. It really doesn't really matter.
He's great in all of them. I think he has the most screen
time in the two Towers, so I'll go with that one.
Yeah, and you have, there's a the Two Towers has a lot of like
the the two sides kind of talking back and forth to each
(07:14):
other thing going on, which is fun to watch Andy Serkis do.
Yeah. But, yeah, obvious choice.
You know, he should. You know, he should have got an
Oscar for this performance, honestly.
Yeah. And Circus is the king of motion
(07:35):
capture, so the motion capture ambassador maybe.
So you know he should be picked first in this track.
Well, I'm I'm also going Andy for my first pick, so I had a
hard time deciding I I, if I'm being honest, I can't I can't
(07:58):
tell you why I'm picking this one.
I I like it the most. I think is why, more so than the
most recent, but I'm going to gowith war for the planet of the.
Apes. OK, great.
So, yeah, so, OK, so you're going specifically his
performance in that one, Yes. Do you want to expound on why
(08:20):
that or or are you saying like you're not even sure exactly
why? No, yeah, that's that's where I
got a little muddy on this is like I I like that movie more
than the better ones. Yeah, but that is very much that
is very much a film. My justification for like
saying, oh, it's the mocap 1 is is that's the the thing I think
(08:41):
about there is like I can see him doing it.
That makes sense. Like, I know it's Caesar, you
know, but. Wait, wait, are you taking?
You're taking him in? Which one?
Sorry, War for the Planet of theApes.
Is that for some reason, when I was typing it, I started typing
Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes.
Oh, no, no, no. And yeah, that was, I was like,
(09:03):
that's not right. He's not in that one.
No. Yes, war.
Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes was.
I enjoyed it. I don't have to get into it.
But it was OK. It wasn't.
It wasn't war. No, for sure, Yeah.
Yeah, I I really enjoyed War forthe Planet of the Apes.
Dawn is really good and Rise wasreally good too.
(09:27):
Obviously he's Caesar and all three of those.
So you could have really, once you take them in one, you've
taken them in all of them, but we have to pick 1.
So yeah, he's it's it's phenomenal, honestly.
And I'm glad you did that because Circus deserves to be
the first two picks. Let's be honest.
He he deserves it. OK.
(09:53):
And I'll have like more circus on my list.
I'm not sure if I'll take any more, but he's he's he's got
quite a few. But yeah, my second pick, I'm
gonna go with Zoe Saldana as Netiri in Avatar.
I think she's, I think she's thebest part of that movie.
(10:14):
She's the only interesting character, really.
That's not like a flat character, you know?
Yeah, she's she's really great and it really interesting and
it's a great performance. There's a lot of powerful
emotion expressed in that character, I think.
(10:38):
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(11:00):
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Check out that link in the show notes to learn more.
Back to the show. Yeah, so for my second pick,
this is explicitly for the mocapperformance because I didn't
personally love this representation of the media, but
(11:41):
the I'm going to go with The Hobbit, the desolation of Smog
for the Internet. Cumberbatch, because that maybe
you should have been my first. I don't know.
I wanted Andy first because I like I like that.
I know he's a strong pick and I like that movie.
But this is probably after like Andy Gollum, Caesar, Benedict
(12:05):
Cumberbatch on the ground is Smog is kind of the
quintessential mocap. You know, picture for me is that
he's, yeah, playing the character and it kind of looks
goofy, but it's amazing. Yeah, yeah.
It's fun. It's fun and it's like, it's
weird, but like, works, you know?
(12:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great, great pick.
That one was a high on my list, but yeah, I think it's a worthy,
good, worthy pick. OK, this is this is where it
gets tough. I think I'm going to go ahead
and pick this as a nostalgia pick.
(12:52):
You already picked Caesar. That would have Caesar would
have been my my next pick after after Gollum and Neytiri, I
think. So that's off the board right
now. I have this as my 4th one.
It's, it's, it's kind of a nostalgia pick.
It's been a long, I don't know this that I've seen this movie
(13:13):
since maybe I was in high school, but I remember going to
see it with my dad in the theaters and it was a big deal
because it was like APG 13 movieand I was like around 13 at the
time. And my dad was kind of strict
(13:35):
about that. And so he was taking me to see
it. And so it was kind of like a,
it's kind of like a a sweet memory I have of going to see
this when my dad like one of thefirst PG 13 movies he took me to
see in theaters when he felt like I was old enough.
But yeah, I'm going to take AlanTudyk as the robot Sonny and I
(13:56):
robot. Was this on DID?
Was this on your radar? It actually was not, but that is
a great pick. I I haven't seen it, but I feel
like I feel like I've seen stuffabout it being mocap.
So I, I, it wasn't my rated because I haven't picked it, but
(14:18):
I've definitely seen I I really like.
I don't know if you're familiar with the channel Corridor
Digital, but they do like behindthe scenes stuff about VFX and
mocap and stunt stunt stuff. Yeah.
So I'm sure that's where I saw something about it.
Yeah, and I mean, this is like, this is Will Smith heyday still,
I think in 2004. And yeah, I don't know if the
(14:45):
movie's actually good or not because I haven't seen it since
I was in high school, but I loved it then, and I would
imagine I would still enjoy it now.
And I did watch a clip of his performance earlier, took kind
of refresh. And yeah, it's a really good
motion capture. There's a lot of kind of nuance
(15:07):
in the emotions of this, like AIcharacter, a robot character.
So yeah, and I think it's a really good motion capture
performance is what I'm draftinganyway, despite if the film is
good or not. Well, I was already.
I had this one like highlighted and ready to go before you
(15:29):
before you went. I'm also going robots for this
third pick. Real Steel.
OK, haven't seen it. I it's OK.
I don't know. I like it because it's robots
and it's Hugh Jackman and it's, it's just, I don't know.
It's fun. It's it's not amazing, but it's
(15:51):
pretty fun. It's a boxing movie with robots.
And the cool thing I, I looked into, I saw it on the list and I
honestly just filtered movies I'd seen and I was looking
through like, you know, what would be good picks?
And I, I looked into it and theyused like they used, I didn't
even realize that this is so cool that they used like
(16:12):
animatronic, like hydraulic stuff for up close, some of the
up close shots. And then like the full body
stuff that happened in the boxing ring was largely there
was mocap done for that? Yeah.
So it was entirely digital. So is it a particular character
or? Well, it's robot boxing, so it's
(16:34):
really the two like the 2 boxing, you know that they do.
They call it boxing, but it's kind of UFC style.
It's not really, I don't know. I actually know that they call
it boxing. I think they say robot boxing
but it's more like just death match.
Yeah. So is it like, is it Hugh
Jackman's character controlling the robot?
(16:57):
Yes, well, that's one of the things I don't want to spoil
anything as but but they have like I'm probably.
Not going to watch it so oh. OK, well, well, they.
That's not. They do like voice command stuff
a lot of times, or they have a remote control.
But then there's like this thingthat he has the specific
(17:17):
character that they have, has the shadow feature that he can
like follow what other robots fighting style and all his other
stuff breaks. And so that at some point Hugh
Jackman's like punching on the side of the ring and the robots
punching following him. So.
So yeah, he has. Control who does The Who does
the motion capture for the robots?
I don't think it's Hugh Jackman.I think it's like fighters doing
(17:41):
the the motion capture stuff. So I'm just going to put boxing
robots in real steel. Yeah.
Yeah, that's fun. Yeah.
I, I don't mean to say I'll never watch it.
Yeah, but I mean. That's not.
Even really a spoiler. It's kind of just my list that's
not, I'm not watching it anytimesoon.
(18:04):
But you know, who knows what will happen in the?
Future very spoiler sensitive. I try to be spoiler sensitive
but. It's also.
That's very. Incredibly heavily foreshadowed.
So it's not really, you know. OK, all right, I'm going to do.
(18:24):
OK, so I have three. I get two more picks.
OK, I'm going to go ahead and take.
I'm going to do another Planet of the Apes one.
I'm going to take Toby Kebble asKoba and Dawn of the Planet of
the Apes. Do you remember this character
Koba? He's kind of like the leader of
the the kind of rogue apes. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I think so.
(18:51):
He's super good. I watched a clip to refresh
earlier because it's been a while since I've seen it and I'm
like, this is freaking awesome. Like the, the kind of like he,
he kind of like has a, he's not as like well developed in his
speech as Caesar. So he kind of like speaks really
slow and like deep and heavy, like heavy breathing.
(19:14):
And he's like a very like scarred up ape.
So he kind of like the, he wearsa lot of like anger and sadness
in his expressions, which obviously Toby Kebbell has to
have to do in his performance. You know, it's, it's really
(19:34):
good. It's a really, really good
performance motion capture wise.So yeah, I'm going with Toby
Keble as Coba and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, OK?
From my 4th pick I went with the.
(20:01):
Pirates of the Caribbean, Dead Man's Chest.
Davy Jones. Yeah, OK.
That's also. Is that the first is so he's in
more than one, right? Yes, so I'm.
David. Jones OK, No, he's.
(20:25):
He's not in Desmond's chest, is he?
That's the. Is that the first one?
Wait, did I get the name wrong? OK, it's at.
World's End that he shows up. Right.
Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, that was Davy Jones was at
World's End. Yeah, right, Bill Nye.
Typed it out and I was like, wait, no, OK, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I had it on my list,
(20:45):
Davy. Jones specifically.
When you said it, I was like, I don't know if that's the right
one. Whoops, it's been a bit since
I've seen those but. No, it's a good one.
Yeah, that's a good mocap performance for sure.
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OK, this is this is my last pick.
There's several directions I cango.
(21:54):
I'm not going to end up. I don't think I'm going to end
up picking a Spielberg mocap performance, which is kind of
sad because this is coming off of some Spielberg films with
mocap. I don't know.
How many do you have left on your list?
Do you have? I got 3 left, yeah.
(22:17):
OK, OK, I'm I'm just going to take the one that I think is
probably like the more significant.
I don't know if I necessarily like No, it probably is.
It's probably it's the more iconic one.
(22:37):
It's the more important one pop culturally.
I'm going to take Josh Brolin asThanos and I guess I'll go with
Infinity War. Good pick.
I mean, yeah, I, I felt like it needed to be picked.
I wasn't sure if you were going to pick it or not on your next
one. Then I was like, this needs to
be on the list because yeah, it's it's huge.
(23:02):
I mean, that's Thanos in those movies is huge.
Like it's a big, it's a really big deal.
Like for and it's and it's a good motion capture performance.
You know, Brolin does I think a good job, you know, kind of
having those masked emotions because Thanos has emotions, but
(23:23):
he kind of masks them, you know,behind a hard demeanor.
And yeah, I, I think he's, I think he's great as Thanos.
And yeah, it's an important character.
Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a
really good pick. It's on my list as kind of back
(23:45):
up if my other ones because I that sounds bad.
I like the performance. I just figured it was going to
get taken. Yeah.
So I'm a little unclear how I'm I'm trying to to be honorable
(24:14):
about is it mocap or not? Well, we can.
We can. I don't have any more picks so
we can talk about it together, yeah.
Well, well, what I'm looking at right now is saying I, so I'll
tell you what I did. I picked Iron Man. 2000. 8 but
looking into it a little more heavily it and it's on the list.
(24:36):
It's on the list. Of of the Wikipedia list
Wikipedia. That list is questionable how
you mentioned the Paddington thing.
Paddington So I think what I am going to do is say, oh wait, no,
you said Infinity War. But I I'll just say in I know
(24:58):
the later stuff when he has nanotech is almost entirely
mocap as opposed to the early stuff which is practical and
digital compositing. So I think I'll say end game,
even though I'm think what I'm really thinking of is his
(25:18):
performance in Infinity War whenhe's fighting Thanos.
Yeah, you can do this is a little bit different, a
different format of a draft since we're taking the
performances. So if you want to, if you want
to. I don't know that doesn't feel
that doesn't feel spirit of the rules to me.
(25:39):
OK, so I'll take do. What you want to do?
I'm I was going to give it a pass because it's a different,
it's a different performance andwe're we're drafting the
performances. But yeah.
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll. But now that I'm thinking about
it, I don't even know that he has.
I was. A lot.
I didn't look into how mocap those things are, so I can't
(26:03):
really can't really veto it or anything because I'm not sure.
It wasn't on my list at all. He doesn't spend very much time.
No, I mean, Oh my gosh, I guess he probably does the snap in
mocap. So I'll I'll take in game.
(26:24):
I'll take in game. OK, I just looked up the snap
scene and it looks like it is. Wait, so he.
Was in he. Was in practical suits sometimes
and then mocap suits when he wasn't like able to do a
(26:47):
practical suit. Yeah, I think it's a good pick.
You know, I, I didn't, I had seen Iron Man on the list, but I
didn't really look into how muchmocap he was doing.
But it seems like like, and you know, whenever he's, you know,
(27:08):
it's kind of like a he's doing practical suits sometimes and
then sometimes it's like fully digital when he's doing like
real crazy flips and stuff. But then the rest, the rest of
it when he's not able to do practical is, is mocap.
So you know, it, it definitely counts.
And yeah, definitely a good character to choose for this
(27:30):
draft. Once that surprised me were
seeing on the list were a quiet place.
Yeah, I I don't know if they didthe monsters mocap or what.
But another one was that the BB8is also like apparently mocap I
(27:54):
I don't yeah. So I had, you know, I had picked
Alan Tudic and I Robot, but AlanTuduk also does mocap for Rogue
One for the K2, SO. Oh, cool, yeah.
So that's Alan Tuduk also in mocap, which that makes sense.
He's a kind of a humanoid Droid.I'm not sure how you do mocap
(28:16):
for BBA, but he's rolling around, you know, I don't know.
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
But I wasn't, I wasn't going to pick K2 SO but but I did have it
down the list pretty far. So so, you know, I should
(28:38):
mention, you know, there's obviously the the kind of like,
I guess our big honorable mentions that we didn't end up
taking. I wasn't, I didn't take the
Spielberg films off off the board, but we didn't take them
anyways. So those are our like big
honorable mentions. So you have for me, I would pick
(29:00):
Andy Serkis as Captain Haddock and 10:10 as the the best one
from 10:10 and then Mark Rylanceas the BFG obviously.
And the BFG is a really good. That's the other one I was
thinking about taking instead ofThanos because it is really good
performance, but but I didn't didn't go with that one with
(29:21):
Thanos. So we'll make it a big honorable
mention. But I did have others too.
Jason Cope as Christopher Johnson and all the other aliens
in District 9. Those are good performance mocap
performances. The Zemeckis.
A Christmas Carol with Jim Carrey as Scrooge, That's a fun
(29:44):
one. Mark Ruffalo as the Hulk, pretty
good. Pretty good.
You could pick, I guess you could go with The Avengers or
whatever movie he's in. And then, yeah, you know, Andy
Serkis also does, these are somethat you wouldn't typically
think of, but he does Kong and the James Cameron King Kong.
(30:11):
He does motion capture for that that character.
And that's what I was kind of, that's one of the things I was
thinking of when I was thinking of even beyond like the talking
Caesar ape. Like he brings kind of a
humanity to Kong that makes him more, you know, humanistic kind
of relatable in a way. He also does Godzilla and the
(30:34):
Gareth Edwards Godzilla reboot, which is fun, I guess.
But yeah, those are those are some of the other ones I had
kind of as honorable mentions. Did you have any other ones on
your list that you wanted to shout out or did I already say
them? No, I well, I had some I had
some noted that like I would listed as like emergency picks,
(30:56):
but I was like questionable. But think movies that I liked
Annihilation. Yeah, it's on.
It's a mocap performance for, I don't want to spoil it, but the
yeah, humanoid thing at the end.Wait, really?
Because I was, I was thinking things about if that was or not.
(31:19):
Oh, really? When I looked it up, that's what
I saw was there was an actress that OK that did a mocap
performance for that before it changes, obviously without
spoiling. It, no, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's good. That's descriptive enough.
I, I might have picked it if I'd.
(31:39):
Because see, the thing to me waswhat I looked up.
What I looked up and saw was that it was mocap for like one
of the creatures and then. Oh yeah, I don't see anything
about that. But yeah, when I saw it on the
list, I thought, oh, that thing at the end must be mocap.
(32:01):
That was what I. You know, yeah, that is what I
saw too, That OK, that it was, it wasn't Natalie Portman doing
the mocap. It was it was another mocap
performer doing that. That's cool, yeah.
OK. But yeah, yeah.
That was that that was a good that was a good performance.
I I really enjoy that film. I.
Didn't put it on my list becauseit's like it's so brief and
(32:24):
there's not a ton to it, so yeah, but.
But yeah. Yeah.
But it, it is eligible, Yeah. And I do love that movie and
love that part of the movie. So you know, not anti yet as a
pick. Yeah, that was the only I was, I
(32:46):
was at the end of my list. So that was pretty much all
honorable, Honorable mention or dishonorable mention.
How do we want to say that cats have has cats been ragged on
enough? Oh, I didn't mention my
dishonorable mention would be The Polar Express.
(33:08):
Tom Hanks has all those characters, not any.
Not against Tom Hanks, but that movie just freaks me out.
The uncanny valley of it all is.Not that is, that is the uncanny
valley. That's like the example I would
give someone if they didn't knowwhat it was.
So, you know, love Tom Hanks, but I do not like the way that
(33:29):
movie looks. Which is, which is I enjoy the
feeling of the book and the train and the distance in the
snow, but that that movie was creepy.
But yeah, yeah, that's a good dishonorable mention.
I think that's the first time we've had dishonorable mentions.
So this is this should be a new thing with movie jazz.
(33:50):
Let's do, I'm going to, I'm going to bring this back in the
future. Dishonorable mentions.
That might be the one that wins.That might be the the swing
opinion. Or do you mean you're going to
include it in the in the? Yeah, well, no, that's not in
the not for voting, but I might like, I might like pop the
dishonorable mentions up on the,you know, up on the Instagram
(34:12):
story. Yeah, yeah.
But I meant more like in the when I record with people in the
future, I'm going to ask them ifthey have dishonorable mentions.
Yeah, it's a fun one. Wait, what?
Was your one again? Cats, OH.
Cats. I didn't know that was mocap.
Yeah, it was mocap. And then I just, I just remember
(34:33):
those, those roaches. That was what?
I never saw that so. It's nightmare fuel man Don't.
Man, that's awful. Well, that was a fun draft.
I'm going to read back the finalresults and yeah, then we'll be
(34:54):
done. So Andrew ended up with Andy
Serkis as Caesar and War for thePlanet of the Apes, Benedict
Cumberbatch as Smaug and The Hobbit, Desolation of Smaug, the
boxing robots and real steel, Bill Nye as Davy Jones and
Pirates of the Caribbean at World's End, and Robert Downey
(35:16):
Junior as Iron Man in Avengers end game.
Great list. I ended up with Andy Serkis as
Gollum and Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, Zoe Saldana as
Neytiri in Avatar, Alan Tudik asSunny and I Robot, Toby Kebble
as Coba and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, and Josh Brolin as
(35:40):
Thanos and Avengers Infinity War.
Yeah, that's our list. We had some honorable and
dishonorable mentions, and yeah,I think this is going to be a
fun one. I think we both have some crowd
favorites that could sway some votes, so it'll be interesting
to see how the poll turns out. But yeah, that's really that's
(36:03):
all I've got. I think we're done.
We're going to pick back up withSpielberg next week with West
Side Story, so be on the lookoutfor that.
That'll be a fun episode. And yeah, that's it.
I've been Eli Price for Andrew Fosier.
You've been listening to the establishing shot.
We'll see you next time.
It wasn't closely What's the secret thing?
Just got to find something you love to do and then do it for
the rest of your life. I don't want to be a product of
my environment, I want my environment to be a product of
(00:29):
me. Hello and welcome to the
Establishing Shot, a podcast where we do deep dives and two
directors and their filmographies.
I am your host, Eli Price, and we are here on episode 110 of
(00:52):
the podcast. Yeah, I'm excited to have Andrew
Focio back on with me from last week.
We talked about Ready Player Onelast week, had a good time doing
that, talked for a long time. I looked at the timer and I was
like, oh wow, we're still going.But it was, it was really good
conversation. Really enjoyed that.
(01:13):
So yeah, go back and listen to that and also go back and listen
to that because we talked a lot about motion capture and that
and what we're going to do todayin honor of Ready Player One,
but also the BFG and adventures of 10/10, we're going to do a
motion capture performances, movie draft.
(01:35):
So we're going to be basically taking turns drafting the best,
in our opinions, motion capture performances.
So yeah, Andrew, good to have you back.
Thanks for coming on. Andrew shared last week some
(02:00):
movies he's been watching, so you can go listen to that or and
you can also go back to the Twilight Zone episode and hear
his Spielberg, you know, introduction and all that.
And you've been on other you've been on you were on the
Christmas movie draft episode and you were on the tenant
episode. And so, yeah, we've done some,
(02:22):
we've had quite a little number of handful of episodes together
now. So yeah.
But but today we're doing a movie draft, motion capture
performances. I thought right before we kick
off the draft, I would pose the question, what makes a motion
performance great, Motion capture performance great.
(02:45):
Did you have any thoughts on that?
Is that something you've even thought about?
Because if you haven't, I wouldn't blame you.
No, Yeah, Well, I, I think, I think the thing that I would say
is probably just the integrationwith the story and like the the
(03:09):
mocap happening for the character and and they're
representing the character versus it's, it looks cool.
I guess. I don't know.
Sure. Yeah, yeah, I I think that's
probably the the main thing and,and, and for this draft, the one
I thought about the most was trying to make, because every
(03:31):
Avengers movie is on here, everyMarvel movie is on here.
Trying trying to make it where it's like, I think of that as a
mocap movie, like a movie. Like I can see the actor in the
mocap suit doing mocap. It's not just.
Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense.
Yeah, I, I was going to say, like, I think I think one of the
(03:53):
things that stands out in motioncapture performances are
twofold. Like 1 is like the physical
performance you get. So, you know, you get these
digitally rendered characters, but like the physicality of
emotion capture performance is so huge because you you get a
(04:14):
lot of personality of the actor in those in, in the, in the
physicality of the characters. Yeah.
And you get also like, you know,the personality, the realness
that the kind of human humannessof the character, even when, you
know, I'm not going to name anything specific because we're
(04:36):
about to be drafting these against each other.
But like, even say, when it's not a human character, you can
still get like humanity built into that character because of
the physicality of the actor being captured in motion
capture. And then the other aspect that I
think is big is the facial expressions.
(04:59):
One of the things that I've learned covering these three
Spielberg movies that have mocapis that they do a lot of work
kind of nailing down their facial expressions because you
kind of have to. It's almost like more stage play
esque in the way they have to act with their face than film.
(05:21):
Because a lot of times in film you're getting close-ups.
You can pick up like, you know, little minor facial expressions
that say a lot in film. Whereas like on the stage
everything's big. You have to act big physically.
You, your facial expressions are, are like overdone and over
the top because you're on a stage far away from people that
(05:45):
have to see you, what you're doing and get the emotions, you
know, across that divide. And it's, it's a little similar
with motion capture performances.
You have to little, you have to over express a little more than
you you normally would if you were just your face was being
filmed so that it comes so that emotion that you're trying to
(06:06):
express comes through in the digital character.
So those were the two things I was thinking about when I was
thinking what what does it take to make a good motion capture
performance? Yeah, that's good.
Yeah. Yeah, we're going to we're going
to jump into this thing. We did some I did some research
(06:27):
earlier when we were when we hadhopped on and Andrew has had two
times picking 1st and drafts we did against each other.
And so I'm, I'm taking the liberty to take first pick in
this one. So yeah, I'm just going to jump
right into it and take the the obvious first pick, Andy Serkis
(06:51):
as Gollum. And I guess I'll take him in the
Two Towers. It really doesn't really matter.
He's great in all of them. I think he has the most screen
time in the two Towers, so I'll go with that one.
Yeah, and you have, there's a the Two Towers has a lot of like
the the two sides kind of talking back and forth to each
(07:14):
other thing going on, which is fun to watch Andy Serkis do.
Yeah. But, yeah, obvious choice.
You know, he should. You know, he should have got an
Oscar for this performance, honestly.
Yeah. And Circus is the king of motion
(07:35):
capture, so the motion capture ambassador maybe.
So you know he should be picked first in this track.
Well, I'm I'm also going Andy for my first pick, so I had a
hard time deciding I I, if I'm being honest, I can't I can't
(07:58):
tell you why I'm picking this one.
I I like it the most. I think is why, more so than the
most recent, but I'm going to gowith war for the planet of the.
Apes. OK, great.
So, yeah, so, OK, so you're going specifically his
performance in that one, Yes. Do you want to expound on why
(08:20):
that or or are you saying like you're not even sure exactly
why? No, yeah, that's that's where I
got a little muddy on this is like I I like that movie more
than the better ones. Yeah, but that is very much that
is very much a film. My justification for like
saying, oh, it's the mocap 1 is is that's the the thing I think
(08:41):
about there is like I can see him doing it.
That makes sense. Like, I know it's Caesar, you
know, but. Wait, wait, are you taking?
You're taking him in? Which one?
Sorry, War for the Planet of theApes.
Is that for some reason, when I was typing it, I started typing
Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes.
Oh, no, no, no. And yeah, that was, I was like,
(09:03):
that's not right. He's not in that one.
No. Yes, war.
Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes was.
I enjoyed it. I don't have to get into it.
But it was OK. It wasn't.
It wasn't war. No, for sure, Yeah.
Yeah, I I really enjoyed War forthe Planet of the Apes.
Dawn is really good and Rise wasreally good too.
(09:27):
Obviously he's Caesar and all three of those.
So you could have really, once you take them in one, you've
taken them in all of them, but we have to pick 1.
So yeah, he's it's it's phenomenal, honestly.
And I'm glad you did that because Circus deserves to be
the first two picks. Let's be honest.
He he deserves it. OK.
(09:53):
And I'll have like more circus on my list.
I'm not sure if I'll take any more, but he's he's he's got
quite a few. But yeah, my second pick, I'm
gonna go with Zoe Saldana as Netiri in Avatar.
I think she's, I think she's thebest part of that movie.
(10:14):
She's the only interesting character, really.
That's not like a flat character, you know?
Yeah, she's she's really great and it really interesting and
it's a great performance. There's a lot of powerful
emotion expressed in that character, I think.
(10:38):
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(11:00):
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Check out that link in the show notes to learn more.
Back to the show. Yeah, so for my second pick,
this is explicitly for the mocapperformance because I didn't
personally love this representation of the media, but
(11:41):
the I'm going to go with The Hobbit, the desolation of Smog
for the Internet. Cumberbatch, because that maybe
you should have been my first. I don't know.
I wanted Andy first because I like I like that.
I know he's a strong pick and I like that movie.
But this is probably after like Andy Gollum, Caesar, Benedict
(12:05):
Cumberbatch on the ground is Smog is kind of the
quintessential mocap. You know, picture for me is that
he's, yeah, playing the character and it kind of looks
goofy, but it's amazing. Yeah, yeah.
It's fun. It's fun and it's like, it's
weird, but like, works, you know?
(12:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great, great pick.
That one was a high on my list, but yeah, I think it's a worthy,
good, worthy pick. OK, this is this is where it
gets tough. I think I'm going to go ahead
and pick this as a nostalgia pick.
(12:52):
You already picked Caesar. That would have Caesar would
have been my my next pick after after Gollum and Neytiri, I
think. So that's off the board right
now. I have this as my 4th one.
It's, it's, it's kind of a nostalgia pick.
It's been a long, I don't know this that I've seen this movie
(13:13):
since maybe I was in high school, but I remember going to
see it with my dad in the theaters and it was a big deal
because it was like APG 13 movieand I was like around 13 at the
time. And my dad was kind of strict
(13:35):
about that. And so he was taking me to see
it. And so it was kind of like a,
it's kind of like a a sweet memory I have of going to see
this when my dad like one of thefirst PG 13 movies he took me to
see in theaters when he felt like I was old enough.
But yeah, I'm going to take AlanTudyk as the robot Sonny and I
(13:56):
robot. Was this on DID?
Was this on your radar? It actually was not, but that is
a great pick. I I haven't seen it, but I feel
like I feel like I've seen stuffabout it being mocap.
So I, I, it wasn't my rated because I haven't picked it, but
(14:18):
I've definitely seen I I really like.
I don't know if you're familiar with the channel Corridor
Digital, but they do like behindthe scenes stuff about VFX and
mocap and stunt stunt stuff. Yeah.
So I'm sure that's where I saw something about it.
Yeah, and I mean, this is like, this is Will Smith heyday still,
I think in 2004. And yeah, I don't know if the
(14:45):
movie's actually good or not because I haven't seen it since
I was in high school, but I loved it then, and I would
imagine I would still enjoy it now.
And I did watch a clip of his performance earlier, took kind
of refresh. And yeah, it's a really good
motion capture. There's a lot of kind of nuance
(15:07):
in the emotions of this, like AIcharacter, a robot character.
So yeah, and I think it's a really good motion capture
performance is what I'm draftinganyway, despite if the film is
good or not. Well, I was already.
I had this one like highlighted and ready to go before you
(15:29):
before you went. I'm also going robots for this
third pick. Real Steel.
OK, haven't seen it. I it's OK.
I don't know. I like it because it's robots
and it's Hugh Jackman and it's, it's just, I don't know.
It's fun. It's it's not amazing, but it's
(15:51):
pretty fun. It's a boxing movie with robots.
And the cool thing I, I looked into, I saw it on the list and I
honestly just filtered movies I'd seen and I was looking
through like, you know, what would be good picks?
And I, I looked into it and theyused like they used, I didn't
even realize that this is so cool that they used like
(16:12):
animatronic, like hydraulic stuff for up close, some of the
up close shots. And then like the full body
stuff that happened in the boxing ring was largely there
was mocap done for that? Yeah.
So it was entirely digital. So is it a particular character
or? Well, it's robot boxing, so it's
(16:34):
really the two like the 2 boxing, you know that they do.
They call it boxing, but it's kind of UFC style.
It's not really, I don't know. I actually know that they call
it boxing. I think they say robot boxing
but it's more like just death match.
Yeah. So is it like, is it Hugh
Jackman's character controlling the robot?
(16:57):
Yes, well, that's one of the things I don't want to spoil
anything as but but they have like I'm probably.
Not going to watch it so oh. OK, well, well, they.
That's not. They do like voice command stuff
a lot of times, or they have a remote control.
But then there's like this thingthat he has the specific
(17:17):
character that they have, has the shadow feature that he can
like follow what other robots fighting style and all his other
stuff breaks. And so that at some point Hugh
Jackman's like punching on the side of the ring and the robots
punching following him. So.
So yeah, he has. Control who does The Who does
the motion capture for the robots?
I don't think it's Hugh Jackman.I think it's like fighters doing
(17:41):
the the motion capture stuff. So I'm just going to put boxing
robots in real steel. Yeah.
Yeah, that's fun. Yeah.
I, I don't mean to say I'll never watch it.
Yeah, but I mean. That's not.
Even really a spoiler. It's kind of just my list that's
not, I'm not watching it anytimesoon.
(18:04):
But you know, who knows what will happen in the?
Future very spoiler sensitive. I try to be spoiler sensitive
but. It's also.
That's very. Incredibly heavily foreshadowed.
So it's not really, you know. OK, all right, I'm going to do.
(18:24):
OK, so I have three. I get two more picks.
OK, I'm going to go ahead and take.
I'm going to do another Planet of the Apes one.
I'm going to take Toby Kebble asKoba and Dawn of the Planet of
the Apes. Do you remember this character
Koba? He's kind of like the leader of
the the kind of rogue apes. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I think so.
(18:51):
He's super good. I watched a clip to refresh
earlier because it's been a while since I've seen it and I'm
like, this is freaking awesome. Like the, the kind of like he,
he kind of like has a, he's not as like well developed in his
speech as Caesar. So he kind of like speaks really
slow and like deep and heavy, like heavy breathing.
(19:14):
And he's like a very like scarred up ape.
So he kind of like the, he wearsa lot of like anger and sadness
in his expressions, which obviously Toby Kebbell has to
have to do in his performance. You know, it's, it's really
(19:34):
good. It's a really, really good
performance motion capture wise.So yeah, I'm going with Toby
Keble as Coba and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, OK?
From my 4th pick I went with the.
(20:01):
Pirates of the Caribbean, Dead Man's Chest.
Davy Jones. Yeah, OK.
That's also. Is that the first is so he's in
more than one, right? Yes, so I'm.
David. Jones OK, No, he's.
(20:25):
He's not in Desmond's chest, is he?
That's the. Is that the first one?
Wait, did I get the name wrong? OK, it's at.
World's End that he shows up. Right.
Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, that was Davy Jones was at
World's End. Yeah, right, Bill Nye.
Typed it out and I was like, wait, no, OK, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I had it on my list,
(20:45):
Davy. Jones specifically.
When you said it, I was like, I don't know if that's the right
one. Whoops, it's been a bit since
I've seen those but. No, it's a good one.
Yeah, that's a good mocap performance for sure.
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OK, this is this is my last pick.
There's several directions I cango.
(21:54):
I'm not going to end up. I don't think I'm going to end
up picking a Spielberg mocap performance, which is kind of
sad because this is coming off of some Spielberg films with
mocap. I don't know.
How many do you have left on your list?
Do you have? I got 3 left, yeah.
(22:17):
OK, OK, I'm I'm just going to take the one that I think is
probably like the more significant.
I don't know if I necessarily like No, it probably is.
It's probably it's the more iconic one.
(22:37):
It's the more important one pop culturally.
I'm going to take Josh Brolin asThanos and I guess I'll go with
Infinity War. Good pick.
I mean, yeah, I, I felt like it needed to be picked.
I wasn't sure if you were going to pick it or not on your next
one. Then I was like, this needs to
be on the list because yeah, it's it's huge.
(23:02):
I mean, that's Thanos in those movies is huge.
Like it's a big, it's a really big deal.
Like for and it's and it's a good motion capture performance.
You know, Brolin does I think a good job, you know, kind of
having those masked emotions because Thanos has emotions, but
(23:23):
he kind of masks them, you know,behind a hard demeanor.
And yeah, I, I think he's, I think he's great as Thanos.
And yeah, it's an important character.
Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a
really good pick. It's on my list as kind of back
(23:45):
up if my other ones because I that sounds bad.
I like the performance. I just figured it was going to
get taken. Yeah.
So I'm a little unclear how I'm I'm trying to to be honorable
(24:14):
about is it mocap or not? Well, we can.
We can. I don't have any more picks so
we can talk about it together, yeah.
Well, well, what I'm looking at right now is saying I, so I'll
tell you what I did. I picked Iron Man. 2000. 8 but
looking into it a little more heavily it and it's on the list.
(24:36):
It's on the list. Of of the Wikipedia list
Wikipedia. That list is questionable how
you mentioned the Paddington thing.
Paddington So I think what I am going to do is say, oh wait, no,
you said Infinity War. But I I'll just say in I know
(24:58):
the later stuff when he has nanotech is almost entirely
mocap as opposed to the early stuff which is practical and
digital compositing. So I think I'll say end game,
even though I'm think what I'm really thinking of is his
(25:18):
performance in Infinity War whenhe's fighting Thanos.
Yeah, you can do this is a little bit different, a
different format of a draft since we're taking the
performances. So if you want to, if you want
to. I don't know that doesn't feel
that doesn't feel spirit of the rules to me.
(25:39):
OK, so I'll take do. What you want to do?
I'm I was going to give it a pass because it's a different,
it's a different performance andwe're we're drafting the
performances. But yeah.
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll. But now that I'm thinking about
it, I don't even know that he has.
I was. A lot.
I didn't look into how mocap those things are, so I can't
(26:03):
really can't really veto it or anything because I'm not sure.
It wasn't on my list at all. He doesn't spend very much time.
No, I mean, Oh my gosh, I guess he probably does the snap in
mocap. So I'll I'll take in game.
(26:24):
I'll take in game. OK, I just looked up the snap
scene and it looks like it is. Wait, so he.
Was in he. Was in practical suits sometimes
and then mocap suits when he wasn't like able to do a
(26:47):
practical suit. Yeah, I think it's a good pick.
You know, I, I didn't, I had seen Iron Man on the list, but I
didn't really look into how muchmocap he was doing.
But it seems like like, and you know, whenever he's, you know,
(27:08):
it's kind of like a he's doing practical suits sometimes and
then sometimes it's like fully digital when he's doing like
real crazy flips and stuff. But then the rest, the rest of
it when he's not able to do practical is, is mocap.
So you know, it, it definitely counts.
And yeah, definitely a good character to choose for this
(27:30):
draft. Once that surprised me were
seeing on the list were a quiet place.
Yeah, I I don't know if they didthe monsters mocap or what.
But another one was that the BB8is also like apparently mocap I
(27:54):
I don't yeah. So I had, you know, I had picked
Alan Tudic and I Robot, but AlanTuduk also does mocap for Rogue
One for the K2, SO. Oh, cool, yeah.
So that's Alan Tuduk also in mocap, which that makes sense.
He's a kind of a humanoid Droid.I'm not sure how you do mocap
(28:16):
for BBA, but he's rolling around, you know, I don't know.
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
But I wasn't, I wasn't going to pick K2 SO but but I did have it
down the list pretty far. So so, you know, I should
(28:38):
mention, you know, there's obviously the the kind of like,
I guess our big honorable mentions that we didn't end up
taking. I wasn't, I didn't take the
Spielberg films off off the board, but we didn't take them
anyways. So those are our like big
honorable mentions. So you have for me, I would pick
(29:00):
Andy Serkis as Captain Haddock and 10:10 as the the best one
from 10:10 and then Mark Rylanceas the BFG obviously.
And the BFG is a really good. That's the other one I was
thinking about taking instead ofThanos because it is really good
performance, but but I didn't didn't go with that one with
(29:21):
Thanos. So we'll make it a big honorable
mention. But I did have others too.
Jason Cope as Christopher Johnson and all the other aliens
in District 9. Those are good performance mocap
performances. The Zemeckis.
A Christmas Carol with Jim Carrey as Scrooge, That's a fun
(29:44):
one. Mark Ruffalo as the Hulk, pretty
good. Pretty good.
You could pick, I guess you could go with The Avengers or
whatever movie he's in. And then, yeah, you know, Andy
Serkis also does, these are somethat you wouldn't typically
think of, but he does Kong and the James Cameron King Kong.
(30:11):
He does motion capture for that that character.
And that's what I was kind of, that's one of the things I was
thinking of when I was thinking of even beyond like the talking
Caesar ape. Like he brings kind of a
humanity to Kong that makes him more, you know, humanistic kind
of relatable in a way. He also does Godzilla and the
(30:34):
Gareth Edwards Godzilla reboot, which is fun, I guess.
But yeah, those are those are some of the other ones I had
kind of as honorable mentions. Did you have any other ones on
your list that you wanted to shout out or did I already say
them? No, I well, I had some I had
some noted that like I would listed as like emergency picks,
(30:56):
but I was like questionable. But think movies that I liked
Annihilation. Yeah, it's on.
It's a mocap performance for, I don't want to spoil it, but the
yeah, humanoid thing at the end.Wait, really?
Because I was, I was thinking things about if that was or not.
(31:19):
Oh, really? When I looked it up, that's what
I saw was there was an actress that OK that did a mocap
performance for that before it changes, obviously without
spoiling. It, no, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's good. That's descriptive enough.
I, I might have picked it if I'd.
(31:39):
Because see, the thing to me waswhat I looked up.
What I looked up and saw was that it was mocap for like one
of the creatures and then. Oh yeah, I don't see anything
about that. But yeah, when I saw it on the
list, I thought, oh, that thing at the end must be mocap.
(32:01):
That was what I. You know, yeah, that is what I
saw too, That OK, that it was, it wasn't Natalie Portman doing
the mocap. It was it was another mocap
performer doing that. That's cool, yeah.
OK. But yeah, yeah.
That was that that was a good that was a good performance.
I I really enjoy that film. I.
Didn't put it on my list becauseit's like it's so brief and
(32:24):
there's not a ton to it, so yeah, but.
But yeah. Yeah.
But it, it is eligible, Yeah. And I do love that movie and
love that part of the movie. So you know, not anti yet as a
pick. Yeah, that was the only I was, I
(32:46):
was at the end of my list. So that was pretty much all
honorable, Honorable mention or dishonorable mention.
How do we want to say that cats have has cats been ragged on
enough? Oh, I didn't mention my
dishonorable mention would be The Polar Express.
(33:08):
Tom Hanks has all those characters, not any.
Not against Tom Hanks, but that movie just freaks me out.
The uncanny valley of it all is.Not that is, that is the uncanny
valley. That's like the example I would
give someone if they didn't knowwhat it was.
So, you know, love Tom Hanks, but I do not like the way that
(33:29):
movie looks. Which is, which is I enjoy the
feeling of the book and the train and the distance in the
snow, but that that movie was creepy.
But yeah, yeah, that's a good dishonorable mention.
I think that's the first time we've had dishonorable mentions.
So this is this should be a new thing with movie jazz.
(33:50):
Let's do, I'm going to, I'm going to bring this back in the
future. Dishonorable mentions.
That might be the one that wins.That might be the the swing
opinion. Or do you mean you're going to
include it in the in the? Yeah, well, no, that's not in
the not for voting, but I might like, I might like pop the
dishonorable mentions up on the,you know, up on the Instagram
(34:12):
story. Yeah, yeah.
But I meant more like in the when I record with people in the
future, I'm going to ask them ifthey have dishonorable mentions.
Yeah, it's a fun one. Wait, what?
Was your one again? Cats, OH.
Cats. I didn't know that was mocap.
Yeah, it was mocap. And then I just, I just remember
(34:33):
those, those roaches. That was what?
I never saw that so. It's nightmare fuel man Don't.
Man, that's awful. Well, that was a fun draft.
I'm going to read back the finalresults and yeah, then we'll be
(34:54):
done. So Andrew ended up with Andy
Serkis as Caesar and War for thePlanet of the Apes, Benedict
Cumberbatch as Smaug and The Hobbit, Desolation of Smaug, the
boxing robots and real steel, Bill Nye as Davy Jones and
Pirates of the Caribbean at World's End, and Robert Downey
(35:16):
Junior as Iron Man in Avengers end game.
Great list. I ended up with Andy Serkis as
Gollum and Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, Zoe Saldana as
Neytiri in Avatar, Alan Tudik asSunny and I Robot, Toby Kebble
as Coba and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, and Josh Brolin as
(35:40):
Thanos and Avengers Infinity War.
Yeah, that's our list. We had some honorable and
dishonorable mentions, and yeah,I think this is going to be a
fun one. I think we both have some crowd
favorites that could sway some votes, so it'll be interesting
to see how the poll turns out. But yeah, that's really that's
(36:03):
all I've got. I think we're done.
We're going to pick back up withSpielberg next week with West
Side Story, so be on the lookoutfor that.
That'll be a fun episode. And yeah, that's it.
I've been Eli Price for Andrew Fosier.
You've been listening to the establishing shot.
We'll see you next time.
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