008 Dating Advice with Dad

On this week’s episode of The Even If Podcast, we have our first guest! Sarah’s dad, Jeff Helton is on the microphone with her this week and Jeff is full of wisdom. Sarah gave him a list of 10 questions before the show and he came prepared. Get ready for an episode full of wisdom, encouragement and, of course, some good ole’ Jeff Helton humor. Enjoy this week’s episode and remember, even if, He is still good.

Connect with Jeff Helton: wellspringtn.com/jeff

Connect: [e-mail]

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theevenifpod

Sarah: https://www.instagram.com/sarahhelton_/

Kenzie:https://www.instagram.com/kenzietodd/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome back to the Even If Podcast. I'm Sarah and today's episode is Dating Advice with

(00:09):
Dad. And today we have a special guest. My dad is here. Dad, say hi.
Hey, baby, how are you?
So fun. And this is just so fun. I'm so happy you're here. This is like a dream.
I'm loving listening to y'all. So to be here, I just don't want to mess it up as my fear.
Okay, dad is also known as Jeff Hilton. He is a life and executive coach who works with individuals, marriages and organizations.

(00:37):
But also my intro. He is a husband to my mom. Dad of four, grandfather to eight. Is that how many kids we have in the family?
Soon to be nine.
Soon to be nine. Okay. He is a servant leader available for his people, prioritizes his family, intentional, thoughtful, deep, emotionally intelligent.
Hilarious, a fixer and a builder and sometimes a breaker and an amazing chef, a really good man that sets the bar extremely high for me.

(01:07):
Gosh, that's sweet.
Which is why we have him on our podcast today and are hoping to get some good words of wisdom for all of our listeners on dating advice with dad.
Well, I'm so glad to be here, Sarah. Obviously, this last few months have been so much fun for me to watch you as your dad just grow into some new areas and now to watch you and come
together and partner in what you guys are doing with this podcast. I like every Tuesday, I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to go listen. I got to go listen.

(01:33):
And you both are just doing something so remarkable. I love the name of it, even if. And I know on the first episode, you all talked about the amazing way you both were kind of thinking the same phrase at the same time.
Just a crazy story.
Yeah.
But man, since I was about 18 years old, that story in Daniel three has always been one of my favorite stories of the crazy church I was raised in, you know, people love the first part of

(01:55):
that story, you know, the three Hebrew children about to be thrown the furnace and their words were these three words that everybody loved God is able, you know, and he's able to deliver us from the fiery furnace.
That was their, their kind of declaration. Everybody loves those words. God is able. He can do this for me. He can do that for me. Yeah, but we didn't ever preach the second half of it or talk about the second half of it.
And the second half of it is where even if comes from in the old version, I learned it in the three words that came next instead of God is able. They said, but if not, even, even if he doesn't come through for us, he's still good.

(02:27):
We're still not going to bow down to this false idol. So every time Tuesday rolls around, I get so pumped. And then I just go back thinking, I am so proud of both of you girls for what you're doing. Excuse me, women for what you're doing and the influence you're having on so many people.
It's beautiful. Thanks, dad. It's fun. It's crazy doing this and it's crazy. You're on my show. No, what a table is. I know this is crazy. I'm in charge. I got you girl.

(02:55):
All right. Okay, so we're just going to go through some questions. I wrote down some fun questions for today's episode and just really excited for where it'll take us. And it's probably going to be things that I've heard my whole life and some I didn't listen to and some I can try listening to now.
I will vouch for you didn't listen to. Okay, we're learning. We're learning. Okay. So let's just kick it off because I am really, really excited about this. First question I have, what was dating like when you were our age and how do you think it's different for us today?

(03:26):
Yeah. Oh gosh. Well, first of all, I was not an expert in the dating game back then. I didn't have games. I've told you so many times. But you married my mama. I don't know. She had cataracts. She couldn't see who I was. I don't know what happened, but thank God it worked out great for me.
No, I think, I think for me, when I think about that question, the two things that pop my mind is one, your generation has these stages of dating, like, you know, you're talking, you're not dating, you're hanging, you're not dating. And I'm like, I don't, I don't get all that.

(03:54):
Because for us, it was like, we date or weren't dating, you know? Yeah. And I think the biggest thing though, the second thing that's so massively different is, man, our generation, there was no social media. There was no sliding into a DM. There was no texting.
There was, I mean, literally, if you wanted to go out with somebody, you had to walk up to them and talk to them, either at school, you know, you had to go up and introduce yourself. You had to find a way to get to know them. And then once you got to know them, the most horrible thing was you had to call their house.

(04:19):
Well, we didn't have cell phones. So you called the house phone and you just prayed the whole time as I got, oh God, please don't let her dad answer. Please don't let her dad answer. And when her dad would answer, you'd be like, oh, Mr. Smith is Susie there?
I wish guys did that still. Oh my gosh. Could you imagine what if they had to call you? Oh, I would love that so much. I miss that part. I think that's hilarious. That would have been really good because you wouldn't have gone on any dates.

(04:45):
But, no, but, you know, I would have been good. No, but, but I can remember one time for sure calling and the dead says, oh, may I tell her who's calling? I said, yeah, this is Jeff. Oh dear. And then he asked the most horrible question. Oh, okay, Jeff, what is the nature of this call?
Click. I just hung up. I didn't know what to do. I thought, well, I'm not going out with her ever. I mean, it was, it was terrifying. So I'm being silly, but it's true. It was just a different world.

(05:12):
And I think how you built relationship was really kind of top shelf. And not that your generation isn't building a relationship, but I think there's a lot of things to hide behind with social media, with texting, and you don't get to read all the full expressions at times.
And so I think that's one of the biggest changes that I don't think is all good. You know, I think, I think, again, I'm not anti dating apps and all that jazz, but I think it's there's something sometimes about being able just to sit down face to face eyeball to eyeball.

(05:41):
Ultimately, though, whether it's back in the 1970s when I was a kid or it's in this generation now, ultimately, we're all longing for the same thing. We just went to connect with somebody. We wanted someone who would know us, someone who would care about us, someone who maybe would love us.
And so that's the thing that hasn't changed is we're just longing to be connected. That's part of how we've been created.
Yeah.

(06:02):
Kenzie and I touched on dating apps a few weeks ago and just, you know, what our thoughts are on it. And, you know, I've tried them. I haven't. And it is, it's interesting. You really can hide behind something. And it's, I feel like there's probably more courage and bravery.
I don't know, maybe not more. But there was a certain courage and bravery guys had to have. What was it, 20 years ago?
Yeah, more so than today, just the way people can slide into DMs and get on dating out, get on social media.

(06:29):
Instead of, I see a pretty girl, go talk to her.
Well, in some ways, I was like a dating app because I was friends with all the girls and all the guys.
So you connected.
And so I was the little man, like I was hitched long before they were hitched. You know, I was the guy that they'd say, Hey, I remember one of my favorite stories.
This girl named Lisa came up to me just before our Sadie Hawkins dance. That was the dance where girls would ask the guys, you know, and she comes up to me. She goes, Jeff,

(06:51):
Sadie Hawkins is coming up. Y'all, my heart almost stopped beating. And she goes, she goes, I was just wondering. And I'm like, yes, Lisa.
Yes, I was just wondering, do you think Mark would want to go with me?
Oh, the middleman. Well, I feel like we did get a little bit of that. I remember being in middle school or high school, whatever it was, and calling landlines and doing three way calls to see like, does this guy like you?

(07:18):
And somebody else is on the other one. Anyways, that's also different. So yeah, very different from your age to ours. What would you say? What qualities should we look for in a partner? And why are those so important?
Yeah, yeah. I'm going to quote your mom first, because I think she has this thing she said to you for, I don't know, a long time. She has two things. She always says that when you're looking for someone, do they love Jesus? And are they teachable?

(07:44):
And I just love those things. I think they're simple. And I think they're so spot on. I'll kind of add some of my words to it. I think the way I think about it is this will sound kind of way too simplistic.
But I think one of the things that's really important in the quality for you women to look for is to actually find a man and not a boy.
Because I think we're in an epidemic of boyhood in 20s and 30s in our culture right now. And my generation has to take a whole lot of responsibility for that. Because somewhere we failed in growing boys to men.

(08:15):
And so I think one of the biggest things I think about for you, I pray for for you, I think about for Kenzie. I just talk, I know so many of you beautiful, early 30 year old girls and I just scratch my head going, what in the world's going on?
And then my next thing is, is where, where are the men? Where are they right now? And I just think, I think it's really for you as women to have a compelling definition of what am I looking for?

(08:37):
And I think about these four P words all the time for for women. One is a man is somebody who's pursuing God. A man who's to someone who pursues you.
You'll hear me say that probably five times today because I think pursuit is so crucial, not passive, not sitting back, not waiting, seeing what might happen, not playing a game, but pursues.

(08:58):
Thirdly, who knows his purpose? I think, I think the need for a man in his 20s and his 30s to begin saying, man, what is my purpose? Why am I put on this earth? What am I here to do?
And it doesn't have to be perfect. And it doesn't mean it's not going to change, but to have something that's bigger than just chasing a woman or just chasing money only. Both those things are important.
But I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. Answering that why question, I think is important. And I think the fourth P word I always think about is the word, he's a planner.

(09:26):
And what I mean by that, he plans a future. He's not just sitting back waiting, but he knows his purpose and goes in light of that, what does the next season of my life look like?
Not talking about a control freak. I'm talking about someone who's willing to look at you say, Hey, what if he has a vision, bingo, beautiful word.
So I just think, I think why is that important? I think it's pretty obvious to me. It's like goodness gracious, you want someone who they are knowing what they're about with Jesus and know what they're about purposefully.

(09:53):
And someone who looks at you says, you're pursuing and hey, I want to dream about a vision for me, but a vision for us together. When we get that place, they're being in us.
That's so good. So pursues Jesus, pursues me purpose, knows his purpose and plans. That's great. I love that.
It's simple, but it just is kind of something to wrap around our brains going, what is it that I really long for?

(10:14):
That's good. That's really good. So how did you know? How did you know mom was the one and what advice do you have for recognizing that in someone?
Well, you've seen your mom is pretty easy.
She's beautiful. She's the best. Inside and out truly the greatest one I know.
I didn't notice the inside for a long time, but that outside, I picked up fast.

(10:37):
She's so beautiful.
She's a doll. Always has been. I look at these pictures from our wedding and I'm like, oh man, she was just perfectly beautiful.
And then I look at pictures from recently and I go, wow, looks like she married an old man. She has aged timelessly. That beauty certainly was the thing that grabbed me early on.

(10:58):
But I think it's a great question. I really tried to think about this question to the point of you and writing some things down because I thought, what was it that made me know she was the one?
And I kind of have two answers on this. I'll start with the easy one first. I'm not sure mom was the one.
And here's what I mean by that. I think there's a real danger when we get locked into. I've got to find my one out of that.

(11:19):
How many people do I have now? 8 billion people in the earth or whatever. I think there's a real danger to go. There's only one right person for me.
That puts incredible pressure on us.
So when somebody asked me how did you know she was the one, I'm like, well, hang on just a minute. She's certainly my one now. We're committed. We're going the distance.
But I think there probably were other women I could have married. But at the end of the day, mom, Laura was the one that I chose.

(11:45):
And so I always like to put that little caveat. But how did I know that she was the one I wanted to marry?
Some of it really was, I think, anchored in two very simple things.
One, I always felt safe when I was with mom. I'm not talking about physically safe, you know?
But there was just, I never felt like I had to posture. I didn't have to, ooh, can I say this or not say this?

(12:08):
Our first date was in a season of life when I was not doing very well.
I was just kind of very skeptical and kind of crass and just kind of, and I remember the other date.
I just kind of shared with mom where I was. I said, I'm kind of in this journey. I'm not sure about my faith journey and blah, blah, blah.
I just kind of laid it all out. And I remember the other date dropping her off.

(12:30):
We had a lunch date because of our crazy schedules in those days.
And I remember walking back to my car going, okay, what is up with that woman? She is so gracious to me.
Either she's really something's wrong with her or, man, what is that about her?
Obviously it was the second. I just realized she was such a safe place for me just to be where I was.
I didn't feel judged. I didn't feel belittled. I was accepted.

(12:54):
And I think it gave me the freedom to process a whole lot of deep life with her.
So part of it was feeling safe and then kind of connected to it is I trusted her.
I just knew that she had my back, that she was with me, that she believed in what I believed in and longed for.
And so I think those were kind of like the foundational building blocks when I think about it.

(13:19):
And so it's not the romantic side. I mean, gosh, that was there.
I mean, can I say this to my daughter? I couldn't keep my hands off of her.
I just loved being with her. She was beautiful. The chemistry was there.
But when I look back on reflecting on it foundationally, I think it was about trust.
It was about emotional safety. It was about going, wow, you're my tribe. You're my people.

(13:42):
And that felt so good.
What I think is so interesting is you saying the feeling emotionally safe with a woman.
One, I don't think a lot of men are aware that that's what they're looking for or that they need.
I think too, that's really cool for our listeners to hear that.
I think we often are looking for that in a man, right? We want to be safe. We want to be secure.
We want these things, but to hear how important that is as a man to receive that too.

(14:05):
I say it all the time. At the end of the day, we're all still eight year old boys and girls wondering, do you really like me?
Yeah, we really be good to me.
And that's the work we have to do. That's the places we need to grow. That's the places we need to heal.
But I think safety and trust, they're not defined by gender.
I mean, men need it, women need it.
And I think it's really important that we're not afraid to go and name that.

(14:30):
I think there's more foundational things to it. Obviously, we had shared values, shared dreams, our faith being shared.
There was a lot of our world that intersected.
And so it was easy to go, okay, we align on a lot of important things.
But when you ask the question, I thought those are the two most foundational things for me with Laura.
So good. Okay. So a different perspective here as a counselor and coach, what is the most common mistake you see in your office and how people choose a spouse and how can we avoid that?

(15:00):
Yeah, I know you asked the question, common mistakes singular, but there were like two or three things that came to my mind.
I'd like to share them all quickly. I think one of the things is the not having spent the energy to truly get to know each other.
I think I've seen couples come office at year two or year three and the things are so frustrated about in their marriage, the places where they've gotten stuck really boiled down to,

(15:24):
gosh, I don't really didn't really know her before I made it. I didn't really know him for a minute.
I didn't know you really wanted that. I mean, literally, I've had couples who've come in at year two or three and one of them starts the conversation about,
and the other one says, I don't want children. I've never wanted children.
Oh my gosh.
I think how did you miss that conversation?
Right.
So I think sometimes it's not being willing to go deep enough to get to know each other.

(15:47):
I think another thing that I see in this, the last decade, especially, and maybe it's even just post COVID is I see couples who get to this hard place because the way they started, their main criteria is, man, we really party together well.
Really?
Yeah. They meet in the bar scene. They meet in the whatever scene, the college scene, and they just have so much fun.

(16:10):
You know, it's just like, man, this is so fun. This is awesome. Look at what we did.
But the fun is connected to something external. It's almost dependent on their peer group. It's dependent upon the party scene.
And so suddenly they get married. And then especially if a baby comes along, life slows down when the baby comes along.
And they're kind of just like, wait, wait a minute. Like, do we really know how to do life in the ordinary times and the rather regular rhythm of life and of time?

(16:41):
So I think those couple things were big. The third one I would say is this is, and this one goes back to gosh, 25 years ago, 30 years ago, I was working with a couple and we did the premier.
I was doing the premarital. And at the end of the last session, I asked this one question. Hey, is there anything we haven't talked about?
Is there anything either of you haven't talked about? And they look kind of funny. I said, no, seriously, here's my question. Do you have a secret?

(17:03):
Do you have a secret? Is there any secret that we've not talked about that we should talk about? And they were both like, oh, no, no, no.
So perform their wedding a few weeks later, gorgeous wedding, beautiful ceremony. It was just, it was unbelievable.
Six months later, they show back up my office and they say, we felt like we need to come in here and have one more conversation with you.
We've decided we're getting a divorce six months into marriage. And the reason was one of them had had a secret that they chose not to tell.

(17:30):
And then it came out once they got married. In the recovery world, we always talk about your only as sick as your secrets.
And I think that's why really getting to know each other in those early days of dating and before there's a marriage is really important.
Because secrets kill, they always do, always have, always will.

(17:51):
How do you feel like you, I mean, it sounds like you asked that as a counselor, you asked for that. They both, they weren't honest.
They weren't open. How do you feel like you, how do you, I mean, how do you know, how do you trust that that you're asking and that you get there?
Like, what do you think it takes to really know somebody and know those secrets?
At the end of the day, it's always a gamble, isn't it? I mean, there's a risk and relationship always, you know, and I think, I think there were that couple, they may say, gosh, there were some things we missed.

(18:23):
And the reality is, is if somebody's going to lie and they're good at it, they're going to lie. And unfortunately, it's going to come out later.
And at that point, you have to figure out, is it really a deal breaker or not?
You know, I look back on that couple, I think of them often because in my opinion, it shouldn't have been a deal breaker.
But for her, there was some trauma around this area from her childhood. When it came out, it just like she was done. She couldn't, she couldn't forgive.

(18:46):
She couldn't move forward and, you know, it's her prerogative. But, but my point is this, I think sometimes the reason relationships don't work is there's been this thing that's hidden.
And when it comes to surface, man, it can be massively big.
Wow. That's good. So this next question is kind of with that too. How can we guard our hearts without being too guarded or closed off?

(19:07):
Because I think that's something, you know, Eve's told me. And so what does it look like to guard my heart yet try to still know somebody and not be too guarded or they can't get to know me?
And what does that look like?
You know, when, when you walk out of our front door of our house forever, there's that calligraphy little piece of artwork that mom and I had commissioned, gosh, 32, 33 years ago.

(19:28):
And it's Proverbs 423 above all. It's guard your heart for it's the wellspring of life.
It's where our coaching business came from that wellspring coaching and training. And so there is something so important about guarding our heart.
The problem is, I think for some of us, we think guarding is, is a fortress like mentality where I just build this big fortress around to build this big brick wall so nothing can get into it.

(19:49):
Nothing can hurt me. That's no way to live. It's impossible to live in that kind of, that kind of fortress.
I think guarding our heart is really what that Proverbs says right after verse 23. I brought it with me because I just want to share it.
It says, it says, keep your mouth free of perversity. Keep corrupt talk far from your lips.

(20:10):
It goes on. It says, let your eyes look straight ahead, fix your gaze directly before you. Give careful thought to the paths for your feet and be steadfast in all of your ways.
Don't turn to the right or to the left, but keep and keep your foot from evil. In other words, I feel like that what Solomon saying those next four verses is saying, look, know yourself, know your boundaries.

(20:31):
Honor what is important to you. There's certain things you guard. Be careful with what you intake. Yes, but it doesn't mean go live all pent up and live in a space of fear.
You know, part of guarding your heart is learning to give your heart. Isn't that interesting? It sounds like it's a paradox.
But part of guarding is being able to give. I want to quote someone that's, you know, far more smart than I will ever be.

(20:58):
But I think he talks about this so beautiful about this space of our tendency to want to guard our heart when it comes to love.
We want to hide. We want to be careful. And he kind of blows it up because if you're going to love, it's going to require giving your heart or the word that some of us hate being vulnerable from C.S. Lewis.
And that's what I want to quote. It's a little paragraph, but I think it's so beautiful to love it all is to be vulnerable.

(21:22):
Love anything in your heart will be wrong and possibly broken.
If you want to make sure of keeping your heart intact, then give it to no one, not even to an animal.
Instead, wrap it carefully around with hobbies and little luxuries. Avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket of your selfishness.

(21:47):
But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, your heart will change. It will not be broken. It will not be hurt.
It will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.
Yeah.
C.S. Lewis is always a mic drop.

(22:09):
Yeah.
And I think that's what that is, is that as we guard our hearts, it's saying, what do I know that matters to me and how do I live accordingly that?
And then as I live, how do I give away radically knowing that I may enter this relationship and I may get hurt, but hurt will not be the final word.
Love always will be. But it will require hurt.

(22:31):
That reminds me of something you used to always tell me, I remember being in a relationship and talking to you and saying, this would just be so much easier if I was single.
And your response was, yeah, it would be a lot easier if you were single, but it wouldn't be as fulfilling.
Or I think I was talking about marriage, maybe in context with them.
Yeah. Cause you are single. Do you know that?
Oh, that wasn't when I was married.
Never have been to my knowledge. Is this a confession?

(22:53):
Weird. No, but I guess I'm saying, why would you tell me like, cause obviously I'm not dating that guy anymore, but I guess you were just saying, and yeah, relationships in general are easier.
Like, yes, you're talking about marriage with the goal of marriage.
Cause I guess I was dating with the goal of marriage.
But I say that often to couples. Gosh, if you want the easiest thing to do, gosh, just break up, get single, just go be selfish and live for you.

(23:15):
For yourself. But what you're going to miss out on is deep, deep connection.
Yeah. You know, yeah. That was it.
All right. Next question.
So what's one thing you wish you had known about love and relationships in your 30s?
Yeah. Yeah. I wish I would have known that a healthy marriage requires two healthy people.

(23:42):
So simple, but really, I wish I'd have completely understood that because I think there was something in me and you know, mom and I, in our early 30s, we'd have married three, four years.
And I think in our conflict and our attention, it was, it was a power struggle. So common in those early years of marriage.
There was this power struggle. And if Laura would just get her act together, we would be okay, you know, and I would think, man, if she could only, and it was really hard for me to look in the mirror and realize, man, I've got so much junk.

(24:08):
And so when I think about that, I think, I think what I wish I'd have known even before I got married is, man, my family of origin, it impacted me negatively in some ways.
I always say this to people all the time. The families we were raised in, they form us and they deform us.
And at some point in life, and I think the earlier, the better we look at the places where we've been deformed, we look at the places where we've been messed up and we just go goodness gracious.

(24:34):
How do I get transformed? How do I get reformed? How does something new grow in me? You know, I don't think I understood. Mom and I say this all the time.
When we came into marriage, we didn't understand anything about conflict resolution or emotional intelligence. We were so flipping co-dependent on each other.
You know, we were just like, oh, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do. And we just didn't have a good sense of ourselves.

(24:56):
And so I wish someone would have grabbed me and said, Jeff, you need to be the best version of you first. Laura, you need to be the best version of you.
Then come together. That's my simple answer on it is a healthy marriage requires two healthy people.
Well, that'll preach because I think a lot of people say, where's my other half? Or I'm looking for my other half.
Exactly.

(25:17):
Or, you know, I'm not, I'm not living my life yet because I'm single and I need my other half.
Yeah.
I'm not living both two halves, right? We're not looking for a whole. You're looking for two individually whole, healthy people.
Okay. Can I put my old pastor hat on for just a sec?
Oh, yes. I didn't tell you all. He used to be a pastor.
Sorry.
Go pastor.
You know I'd be a pastor.
Baby.
This is just, this is just what the Bible says.
The Bible does really screwy math.

(25:40):
Because the way you get to one is like one half plus one half equals one or three quarters plus one quarters equals one.
That's how we do math conventionally, right?
And so I think a lot of times when we get to marriage and the Bible says, hey, when two people come together and get married, the scripture says two become one.
That's like jacked up math.

(26:01):
And so I think what we try to do is we try to turn into, well, maybe I need to be half of me and you be half of you and then we'll be one flesh.
No.
It's hyper mysterious spiritual math.
One plus one equals one.
That's the great mystery of union in marriage.
And so it's how do I show up fully as me?

(26:23):
How does Laura show up fully as her?
And together we create this new entity called marriage, our relationship.
And it's where our oneness gets to be played out.
That's good.
Yeah.
Next question.
This is a fun one.
What are some red flags you think we should look out for when getting to know someone?
Yeah.
Thank you for giving me these questions in advance.

(26:45):
You know, sometimes when I'm on a podcast, I just come in and fly and answer, which is fun.
But it was really fun to try to be thoughtful about this question.
And it was hard to narrow it down to a short list and I still didn't get it too short.
But I just, I'm just going to walk through it really quickly.
And if one or two of these jump out, we can talk more about them.
But here's some things I just literally bullet pointed these things red flags, different values around critical areas, money, faith, I mean, you know, foundational things, cheating and lying.

(27:13):
I think you have to have a zero tolerance.
If you're dating someone and they start cheating, they start lying.
Why?
Why?
Why give a second chance when you're dating?
A whole different conversation we need to have once we're married.
But goodness gracious, why, why give a second chance to that?
When you're, I think one of the red flags is when you're dating someone who does everything for you.
It sounds so good on the one hand, but they do everything for you.

(27:36):
Then I'm, well, where's your opinion?
What do you want?
Again, it's this two individuated selves coming together in a healthy relationship.
So it's a red flag when all he does is now we call it love bombing, right?
When all they do is do everything for you, controlling behavior.
Gosh, if you feel like you're in a relationship where there's control going on, back your bag, run, there's no reason to stick around for it.
I think there's when there's a foundational lack of respect that you experience from the person you're with.

(28:02):
That's a huge red flag, especially around boundaries.
If there's boundaries you've set for yourself in whatever area of life and that person tries to violate those boundaries.
Know this, they're telling you who they are.
When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
You know, and I think sometimes we don't do a good job of doing that.
A few other things I wrote down.
I think it's a red flag most of the time when someone is a loner.

(28:26):
Like, who are their guy friends?
If they don't have some guy friends, if they don't have some guys that they ride hard with, I just think it's really worth exploring what that's about.
Maybe there's an extenuating circumstances, but generally speaking, that feels like a red flag to me.
I think it's a red flag if a person avoids hard conversations.
Always uses humor.
Humor is wonderful.
I love laughter.
It's coming from King of Humor.

(28:48):
Yeah, but there's, and this is what, I mean, trouble in our marriage initially is I think I would make jokes about things that really weren't joke worthy.
Because I was scared to have hard conversations.
So if someone's avoiding a hard conversation, I think that's a red flag.
A couple other things I've wrote down.
Jealousy.
Man, there's no place for jealousy in a relationship.
Passivity.
This goes back to what we talked about earlier.

(29:10):
The state of manhood.
Men who are passive.
To me, that's a red flag.
And then the last one is really the King Daddy to me.
It's when there's addictive behavior present.
Really pay attention when you're dating with someone.
How they interact with alcohol.
How they interact with money.
How they interact with gambling.
Pay attention to ask questions about porn usage.
I think there's stuff going on in our culture that's epidemically dangerous.

(29:33):
And a lot of women seem to be afraid to talk about it.
But now's the time to know is when you're dating.
And I want to say this, we're talking about these red flags and I'm bulletin' off, you know, like 10, 12 things here.
But here's what I want you to know is a red flag doesn't mean it's a deal breaker.
It's like a red light, but it means you better stop.
It means you better look both ways.

(29:54):
You better dig around.
You better ask some questions.
And it might be something we go, oh, okay, there's context for that.
But I think to not to go into a relationship and not know, I've got some deal breakers.
I've got some red flags.
I don't think that's wise.
That's so good.
So what does that look like as a single girl in early stages of dating as you start seeing things and you're curious, like you see something that feels a little controlling is that controlling behavior.

(30:22):
You're not sure if he has a ton of friends, but he's busy with work.
So is he a loner?
You know, I assume all men struggle with porn.
So should I go ahead and ask him on the first day, you know, like, what do you feel like that pursuit?
You said pursuit is so important.
What does that look like in early stages as you are navigating a new relationship and for us women, how do we navigate that?

(30:43):
Yeah, there's the point.
There's so many layers that this is a great, great topic that we're on right now.
I think, you know, the red flags in some ways, they're only seen over time.
So at some level, it takes some time together to see the red flags, right?
I mean, you probably going to pick these things up and no, I don't think on the first date you asked the question about porn.
I think that's a date killer really quick.
Yeah, I'm kidding.
I know.

(31:04):
But I think, but I do think this, I think, I think one of the things that frustrates me when we talk about passivity in this generation and men who are really slow to move toward, you know, baby, I've seen it with guys you've dated.
Yeah, where I don't get how a guy spends time with you and says lavish things about who you are, how much he's enjoying you, and then you don't hear from him for months or weeks or whatever.

(31:28):
I don't get that.
It doesn't make sense to me.
I think when a guy is into a girl, when a guy goes, man, I really want to get to know that girl, there is some sense of urgency to getting to know that girl.
And I used to think maybe that was just my codependency speaking.
But I think what's been really fun through the years is I've done the counseling work I've done as I've talked to your three brothers, my sons, as I've watched so many other men gets kind of universal that if a man is into you, you're going to know he's into you.

(31:55):
Yeah.
And yeah, I think, and I say this with my arms around both of you that I think sometimes you women just give way too much second, third and fourth and 15th chances.
And you just keep waiting.
And I think there's something about, you know, again, I know there's that balancing act.
Like if you go on a date and before you get home, the guys called you three times, okay, creepy, weird, you know, that's over the top.

(32:18):
But there is something about going, I think one of the things you can tell is going, okay, what's going on?
Is he initiating toward me?
So I'm kind of mixing both these things together at one level right now, Sarah.
But I think the red flags take time and they take time together to know.
But part of the way, yes, the question a minute ago was, well, what if I do, I'm not sure is it controlling or not?

(32:39):
This is where having the hard and awkward conversations when you're dating is mission critical.
You know, if you see something that happens once, maybe you'd be gracious with it.
If it happens a second time, it's time to investigate.
It's time to press in.
Hey, I noticed two weeks ago when we were out, you were really short with the waitress.
And it almost sounded condescending to me the way you spoke to her.

(33:00):
Tonight you did the very same thing, you didn't even make eye contact with her or whatever.
Is that how you normally interact with wait staff?
Like that's such a simple thing.
But man, that might be a big telltale right there.
Don't be afraid to lean into hard conversations because here's the deal.
If you confronted a guy about something like that and he blew up at you, praise the Lord.

(33:21):
That's it.
I'm out.
Peace.
I mean, I don't need that.
But if he's like, oh my gosh, wait, I did what?
Right.
Oh my gosh.
I've never noticed that about me.
You're getting, wow, there's mom's word.
He's teachable.
He wants to learn.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Being curious about it.
I feel like I had a conversation about this similar conversation recently with one of my

(33:43):
brothers and just talking about when you're dating somebody early and you start having
these questions or concerns.
Is it appropriate to communicate at that point because they don't know your expectations.
They don't know.
They can't read your mind.
And I'm already thinking these things.
Or is that too much too soon?
And I think that's a question that sometimes we can struggle with as women.
You know, yeah, we went on a date and it was amazing, but I didn't hear back from him.

(34:05):
And I don't know, like, but should I reach out and let him know?
Or did it?
And it's like, no, if he wanted to, he probably would reach out again.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, and again, I think this even goes back to what's similar in my generation of dating
and your generation of dating.
You know, if, if I took a girl out when I was in high school or college and if I didn't fall
up with her in two or three days, here's what I knew.
Well, I don't have any quote unquote claim to her.

(34:28):
We're not, we're not one on one.
We're not in this committed relationship.
See, there's a world of difference when you, when we've DTR.
Is that the right phrase?
Yeah.
But you know, I think if you think you're with your guy, with a guy and you all said, hey,
we're a couple, we're dating, then I think you have every right to press in and say, hey,
what's going on here?
This is, this is how I envision a relationship working.

(34:50):
I think if you've gone out with a guy once, twice, three times, there's not been that
defining conversation.
I think at some point you need to go with this guy, me just be playing the field.
You know what, then I'm not committed to him.
I'm going to move on.
And I think there's something that's just liberating in that instead of, I think what happens is
our hearts, when our hearts capture and go, oh my gosh, this is a really good guy.
And by the way, we guys get to the same thing.

(35:11):
This is really good girl.
It's like, it's like where we want, we hope so deeply.
But sometimes we just got to watch the evidence and again, when somebody shows you who they
are, believe them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I am reading the book captivating right now, you know, John and Stacey Eltridge, which
I don't know if I ever read Wild at heart, but I think you and the boys all did.

(35:33):
And so I'm rereading captivating in my book club right now.
And I feel like it talks a lot about just the way we are.
And there are things that talk about how, you know, the way a man is wired, the way a
woman is and how we want so badly to be pursued, to be chosen, to be sought after, to be desired.
Like that is our nature.
And men love to pursue, to hunt, to like go after.

(35:56):
And so I feel like that feels confusing when you think that is in their nature, right?
Or is that just a healthy man?
Or is that just like, what do you think about that?
Well, I love what the Eldritches have done.
I'm not putting them down this, but I think we have to be careful and not put every man
and every woman into that exact same category.
There are some men who, when they know what they want, I mean, they just rumble.

(36:17):
I mean, nothing's going to stop them.
There's other men who know what they want, but they're going to move at a slower pace.
I mean, I can think about people even in, they're good friends of mine who they're not going
to be the guy that's going to bang on the door every day and say, this is what I want.
They're going to move in a different pattern.
I don't think that means they're not pursuing.
I think their pursuit may look different than the pursuit of someone else.

(36:39):
Does that make sense?
Like a different man, the way a man pursues is different.
Yeah, I think there's got to be, it's just like, not every man loves to hunt and fish,
but that doesn't mean they're not masculine, you know?
Really?
This is going to be a really long conversation today.
You know what I'm saying?
I think sometimes the stereotypes, you know, a real man drives a truck.
Sorry, Sarah, not every man.

(37:01):
Yes, he does.
This is blowing your world up, isn't it?
Don't dating if I said dad, we're done.
But I think to realize that there are some certain stereotypes that aren't helpful.
And I think we want to be careful.
Pursuit can look a lot of different ways, but it's still,
but it still means that somehow there's initiation being taken by the guy.

(37:23):
And he's not sitting back waiting on you to take the initiative.
I have a friend, my friend, Brittany, who's also a counselor and is just such an amazing friend.
She will, she's asked me that before about, well, what does pursuit mean to you?
Because I feel like you want to be pursued and you're such a fun girl that does pursue
mean you want to be taken on such a fun date.
Like you want him to take you out on his bow and do this and do that,
or you want him to take you to a football game and this big, big thing.

(37:46):
Like that's not real life.
I have four kids, like my husband can't pursue me like that every single day anymore.
You know?
And so what does it mean to be pursued?
And she's like, for me, it means that he's after my heart and he is after how I'm doing,
how I'm feeling and wants to get to know me.
And she was like, I would just encourage you as women too to understand what does it mean
for us to be pursued too.
I think that word probably just,

(38:07):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
I've never thought about this or you said this, but it's almost like maybe there's a better word than pursuit.
Maybe the real word is present.
You really want to join a man who's present with you.
He doesn't have to take you on the big adventure every time,
but he's willing to show up and be seen to be known by you.
You know, I talk about this a lot, the difference between intimacy and intensity.

(38:31):
You know, I think those words kind of sound the same intimacy, intensity,
you know, they kind of can roll off her tongue, very similar.
But I think there's a lot of people in dating days that settle for intensity.
Man, he took me to the greatest concert, man, he did this.
We're doing this great trip together.
We did this intensity, a great experience.
Intimacy can be really boring because intimacy, I love the definition intimacy that just breaks the word down phonetically.

(38:59):
Intimacy means into me, see that's truly being present.
It's just that sense of going, I really want to know you, Sarah.
This is me, Sarah.
I don't know how to take you to those big adventures that you talk about.
I don't even like to fish, but by sure like being around you, you hear the difference.
It's like, it doesn't have to be this intense moment.
And I see it in marriages where the marriage gets jacked up and they feel like we're not, we're not connected.

(39:24):
We're not like who we used to be and what do they do?
They, they spend 10 grand on a big vacation.
If we have this intense experience, we're going to be better.
Well, they are for those seven days they're gone.
Right.
But the problem is they come back because they didn't address the whole of intimacy.
So again, I think when we think about pursuit in some ways, it's more maybe just about presence.
I know how to be with you.

(39:45):
That's so good.
I've never heard you use those two that intensity and intimacy because I think I have very guilty of at times wanting the intensity.
Yes.
Seeking the intensity, thinking I found something because I have the intensity.
But then once that fades off a couple months in, there's no intimacy and I'm wondering why I don't like him anymore or why I'm not into it.
Because that intensity won't last.
Well, that comes from your dad, unfortunately.

(40:06):
I think that's what I did with mom is I needed things to be something new and, and you know, how can we do the new, the next biggest better.
And it took me a while to really realize, wait a minute, wait a minute, what we really have that's beautiful is the thing that goes the distance.
It's how we love each other in the ordinary times.
It's easy to love when you're on a tropical vacation, right?

(40:27):
Yeah.
But gosh, how do we love in the midst of raising four little babies, you know, you know,
You're so wise.
You guys, I'm not even kidding. This dating advice with dad is just every single day in my life.
And I just feel like the luckiest girl in the world.
This is so much fun.
Sweet.
This is so fun.
Okay.
Mom's taught me everything.
Okay.
A couple more, a couple more questions.
What qualities do you think we might overlook in a partner, but are actually crucial for a lasting relationship?

(40:53):
Yeah, I love this question too.
The first thing that came to my mind is pay attention to how he treats his mom, his sisters and other key women in his life.
Because it's a pretty good indicator of how he'll treat you one day.
That's such a little thing. We don't even think about it, but I think it really is important to do that.
There are a few other things I thought about too, as I thought, you know, we don't value the power of consistency enough.

(41:18):
A guy that's just steady, that's consistent, that shows up, that does what he says.
Presence.
Yeah, exactly. We're back to that word again, isn't it?
You know, it is. It's that consistency of if I say I'm going to be there, I'm dependable.
Yes.
You can count on me. I think respect and manners.
Didn't that sound like kindergarten?
But I think it tells us a lot about a person.

(41:40):
And I know we talked about this a minute ago, but I think that's, that really can be seen in public places, how he treats the valet, how he treats the waiter, waitress, you know, I think there's something that we learn about what you really believe about yourself and about other people.
I think one of the qualities that we can overlook is the power of curiosity.

(42:02):
If you're with a man who is curious about you.
Yes.
It's a game changer. It's that story.
I was going to say, tell it, tell it.
Yeah.
It's the story of this girl who goes out on a date and comes back home at the end of the night and says, I heard to her roommate says, oh my gosh, I had the best date tonight.
She goes, tell me about it.
She goes, I went out with the most fascinating man in the world.

(42:24):
He flies an airplane. He works overseas three months a year.
And she just goes down this litany of all these incredible things she learned about this man.
She goes, it was an awesome date.
A couple of nights later, she has a date with another guy and she comes back in and her roommate says, Hey, how'd this date go?
And she goes, wow, it was very different than my last date.

(42:45):
And the roommate says, what do you mean?
She goes, well, tonight I'm coming home thinking I'm the most interesting person in the world because he had just asked her so many questions.
And it was so intrigued by her.
It was so curious.
And I think that's a silly little story.
I think it's powerful because it's easy to be impressed with how cool somebody is.
But don't overlook the guy that doesn't need to impress you, but they just wants to know you.

(43:10):
That's so good.
I think that's rich.
I think that's important.
Yes.
It's so good.
The only other one I thought about was I thought, don't underestimate, don't overlook the guy that knows how to celebrate you.
When you think about the season of life you've been in right now, you and Ken's launching this incredible podcast.
If there was a man in your life right now, I don't even be celebrating that for you.

(43:34):
Your book that came out, Calgary Old Mermaid, I think, again, if you were dating somebody, how he celebrates that, that tells you a lot about how he sees you and how he supports,
cherishes and values your world and what you're about.
We good?
I don't know.
I'm crying.
Yes.
You do that so well for me.

(43:56):
And maybe that's my problem is that you celebrate me and I'm like, I got my man.
It's my dad.
You know, actually, there's one other one on this one.
There's these three words I hear myself talking about with marriages all the time.
And I think, again, we're going to go back to kindergarten just for a second because we learned this in kindergarten,
but we forget it in adulthood, it seems like.

(44:17):
Don't overlook a man who can do these three things.
Own when he screws up.
Sarah, I said I'd be here at seven and at seven 20.
I am so sorry.
Your time's important.
I apologize for being late.
Who can own that?
Yeah.
Secondly, who apologizes, who doesn't just own it.
Hey, I was late, but says, I'm sorry.
Yeah.
And then thirdly, a man who knows the art of forgiving and seeking forgiveness.

(44:42):
And I think those three little words owning, apologizing and forgiving,
they're becoming a lost art.
And that's really sad to me because they're so necessary for healthy relationships.
So good.
Yeah.
Don't overlook those things.
That's great.
Okay.
Next question.
What role should family and friends play in giving advice or guidance on who to date?

(45:03):
Well, I think dad should be sovereign and whatever the father says is what you should do.
Gosh, I wish I listened to that 15 years ago.
I'm totally kidding.
Oh gosh.
It's such a balancing act, I think, you know, because on the one hand, you know, you can
have family members are close friends who can be overbearing and we can have a wonderful

(45:24):
plan for your life.
But then on the other end, I think there can, you can, you know, you can start living with
a sense of any person can live with a sense of secrecy.
I don't want anybody to know what I'm doing.
And one of the questions I ask people all the time when they're dating and I'll ask, so
tell me what do your friends think about, you know, your partner?
Well, we really haven't been around too much.
And there's this like question I go, well, wait a minute.
If you're into this guy, why would you not want your family and friends to know this guy?

(45:48):
I think it's an important question to answer.
If there's something in you that's saying, I don't, I don't want to bring him around.
There's, there's a warning light somewhere.
It seems like to me now I'm not talking about on the first date, but you know, if we, if
we've spent some time together and you're still like, I don't know what I want to be around,
pay attention to that.
Something probably of a clandestine nature is going on there.
I do think there can be value than having trusted family members, trusted friends, get to know

(46:11):
your person and get to speak into it.
One of the things that's been true in your story.
You were vulnerable last time.
So I'm going to be vulnerable for you this time.
There have been a few guys along the journey that you've spent time with and dated and
you have brought them around us.
And while your brothers and I never gossip and talk about what's going on, like we're
not saying, oh my gosh, why should you with that guy?

(46:32):
We've, we've never had those conversations.
But it's been interesting when we have gotten to the point where you've asked for opinion
or, or where a relationship has ended and then we do talk about it.
I mean, every time all four of us have been in lockstep, we've been just like, no, that
dude wasn't good or well, we really liked that guy, but whatever didn't happen.
And it's, it's a simple principle I think about a lot.

(46:54):
Men know men.
They just do.
And again, that doesn't mean that I can choose your man for you.
I couldn't.
I wouldn't ever want their responsibility.
I couldn't do that well.
But men do know the hearts of men.
Pretty dog on well.
The corollary is true as well.
Women know women.
So you can flip this around on another episode someday.
But, but for today, I think, I think that can be, I can, I think that can be the value

(47:16):
of, of having family and friends speak into it.
But at the end of the day, it's your life.
It's your decision.
You have to make the decision.
Can I live with this or not seeking the council?
It's biblical.
There's wisdom in the multitude of council.
I think that's important.
At the end of the day, you have to make your decision.
But I took the question.
I also flipped it on the other end.
What's the role of family and friends?

(47:38):
Well, it's not just your family and friends speaking into it, but pay attention to the
role of his family and friends in your relationship.
I think we forget about that sometimes.
So I think one of the coolest things to do is, is to be able to be around his family and
friends.
And again, you get to see how does he interact with these people he's known the longest?
How does he really treat them?
So I think there's a valuable role sometimes just in observing how, how the guy interacts

(48:01):
with, with people he's quote unquote close to.
Yeah.
I think you learn a lot because they're comfortable with them and they can put on an act around
my family, my friends, but you go into their world and you get to see very different what
they're like around them.
And yeah, that's, I agree.
Well, I took from that, that I should bring guys on the first date and you and my brothers
can tell me if he's good or not.
So going forward, any man who takes me out will come home on the first day.

(48:23):
Well, we, we do charge for that work.
All four of us do.
Yeah.
That's so good.
Just men knowing men and bringing him around.
Cause I think I can be so guilty of that of wanting to figure out it's finding that balance
of I want to figure out for myself.
Sure.
I don't need anybody's opinion.
I want to know for myself.
And then I'm like three, four dates in and I'm like, okay, well, I think I like him, but

(48:44):
how would he fit into my world?
Cause I haven't been with him around anybody else, but just me and him, but then I don't
want to put him around my friends right away.
Cause I don't feel like I truly know him and my friends think he's cool, but I'm like,
but do I like him?
It's like finding that.
I feel like that can be a really hard balance.
Well, and when you said that this is a total sidebar, but I often think about how marriage
came about for centuries until the last hundred years or so.

(49:08):
And it was always two fathers got together and said, I've got this son.
I've got this daughter.
I've got these cows or however it worked.
And you met your husband.
You met your wife on wedding day.
Yeah.
That sounds so crazy.
Sounds so ridiculous.
Yeah.
Especially the thing I like about it is this.
Ultimately love is a choice.
Yeah.

(49:29):
Bottom line.
Most important thing on the planet.
Mom and I choose every day to love each other, but we have taken our marriage covenant seriously.
It's not up for debate.
Divorce is the ugliest swear word we could use.
We don't use it.
We've never used it.
We don't threaten it.
It's never been a part of our vernacular because we say we know we're in this forever

(49:49):
and I choose every day to wake up and love.
It doesn't mean that that's easy.
Gosh, there's days that's really, really hard.
Yeah.
So I just add that here because I think sometimes it's really important just to realize, okay,
I can do all the doing I'm going to do to try to get to know somebody.
And I think that's, I think I said it earlier.
I think that's really important.
But at the end of the day, you're going to spend the rest of your life getting to know

(50:11):
your spouse.
Yeah.
I came back from Charlotte.
This is probably a couple of years ago and I was telling mom about the trip.
I was over there working with the church and I said, okay.
And then last night we went to this restaurant and I had the greatest pork chop I've ever
had and she was laughing at me, you know, me and foodie world.
And I said, and Laura, they had these beats and they were so good.
And she goes, what?
I said, oh, beats.

(50:32):
I said, I love beats.
She goes, we've been married 37 years.
I've never heard those words.
I've never seen you eat a beat.
That's 30 years.
It's true.
So I don't think you ever know someone fully.
It's why marriage is the place that we work out everything in life and constantly get

(50:54):
a chance to learn more.
Wow.
That's hilarious.
Okay.
Well, this has been so much fun and I can ask you a hundred more questions and good thing
I can cause I'll call you later and tomorrow on the next day and the next.
But last, just the last question is before we wrap this, is there anything that you would
like to say to us to even if to our listeners?

(51:15):
So a lot of the questions today, everyone of those questions, I think have been awesome.
I've loved the questions that you all worked on.
But the one question I wasn't asked was like, dad, what's advice for me as I go on a date
or as I'm dating?
Yeah.
And so I'm pretending like you just asked me that question and that's going to be my
last word of advice.
Yeah, that was next week.
I was going to ask you, dad, what do I need to do?

(51:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was coming up.
Next week.
Again, I made my, you know, me and my top 10 list.
I made just a few thoughts down of things.
I think all these I've said to you somewhere in life, but I just want to say to you as
a dad, to a daughter, Kenzie, to you, to any listeners, because I think I spent a lot of
my life sitting in my office, re-parenting a lot of clients, clients who didn't have

(52:01):
a dad speak into them.
But my no means do I think I have the wisdom of Solomon at all.
Man, anything that feels wise, it comes out of my mouth.
I've learned it from skint knees and busted elbows.
I've learned life the hard way from experience, but I've learned and I've captured and I
want to pass it on.
I think this last season of my life, I want to give back what I've learned if it can be

(52:21):
helpful to anybody around me.
So I just jot down a few things that I think, gosh, here would be my desire for you, for
any girl as they're dating one, don't underestimate the power of friendship.
Research says that the most important ingredient of a good marriage is a deep friendship with
each other.

(52:41):
And sometimes I think we put people in the quote unquote friend zone.
Maybe we need to be looking in the friend zone more and going, wait, who are these people
that I really love being with?
They are dependable and I know they're good, bad and ugly.
Don't underestimate the power of friends.
Secondly, when you're on a date, be you, period.
Don't try to be something else.
Don't find out that this is what he does for a living, so I better wear this outfit.

(53:04):
Or this is who he knows, so I better make sure I know this person.
Just be you.
Going into it, into it, know your deal breakers.
You and I talked about this recently.
I think there's, every girl needs to have two, three, just like super quick deal breakers.
For example, for you, your walk with Jesus is so important to you.

(53:24):
I know that that's really important to you.
So you don't see yourself marrying a man who doesn't love Jesus.
That's awesome.
So if you go out on a date and early on the guy says, man, I'm an agnostic, faith is not
important to me.
That's super easy.
Like take it please.
I mean, I was like, I don't need to stay, stay congruent to who you are.
You don't need to change to adapt to someone else's mold.

(53:45):
Thirdly, be safe and comfortable when you're with the guy.
Know your boundaries.
If you feel pressured, step back.
I think I've watched this so often of women who feel like, well, I just don't want to
upset him.
I want to fit in.
Know your boundaries.
Know what you're about.
Fourthly, trust your gut.

(54:06):
You know, God's giving you a good nose.
And if something doesn't feel right, check it out.
Ask questions, create conflict, engage.
Because if it doesn't feel right, it may not be right.
But it also may mean that you're wrong.
You're reading the tea leaves wrong.
So if something doesn't feel right, check it out.
Fifthly, don't avoid conflict.

(54:26):
I've talked about that a lot today, so I'm not the same thing more.
But don't be afraid to ask the hard questions when there's something you're curious about.
Because if you can't do conflict when you're dating and you're trying to impress each other,
you sure won't do it once you're married.
And conflict is the golden pathway to intimacy.
We must know how to do healthy conflict.
I always say the road to intimacy is paved with healthy conflict resolution.

(54:50):
We've got to be able to do conflict well.
You just said in that last one too, before engaging conflict is create conflict.
Yeah.
What do you mean by that?
Create conflict.
I'll talk to the leaders and I'll say it's really important if you're going to be a good
leader to elevate the conflict in your office.
That doesn't mean go around picking fights with people.

(55:12):
That means when there's something that's going on, pull on the thread, ask questions,
be curious.
Don't be afraid to escalate the conflict because the higher the level of conflict, the more
we can talk about something, the better answer we're going to get into the room.
That's kind of a duh business principle.
But it's not just a business principle.
It's a relationship principle.
The best moments mom and I share or when one of us say, and mom has this great line she

(55:36):
brought to our marriage, she'll say this, can I check something out?
I know at that moment we're about to have conflict, but I'm not afraid of it because
we don't scream, we don't yell, we don't name call.
But it means we're about to talk about something that we probably disagree about.
But if we will stay in the room, if we'll stay in the ring, if I'll hear her, if she'll
hear me, we're going to get to a better solution, a better answer than me just acquiescing and

(56:00):
giving in or me bulldozing over her and saying you got to do it my way.
So I think it's really important to not be afraid to elevate the conflict sometimes.
That's good.
That makes sense.
I wrote another one down, which we've already talked about, don't confuse intimacy and intensity,
we already talked about that one.
Seventh, be honest.
Don't play games.
Yeah.
That's great.
I think it's so easy to, this is cool, or he looks this way, or he might get me to go

(56:26):
do this.
I'll just be honest.
If it's not there, it's not there.
That's okay.
I wrote three of the things down.
If someone says that they're not ready, believe them.
Don't wait around.
Move on.
It's okay.
They don't have to be ready.
But if you're ready for something more and they're not, it's okay to step back.
It's heartbreaking and maybe sad, but it's how you take care of you.

(56:49):
Okay?
And my last two, I wish I could sit face to face with every listener and just as an old
man, it would be creepy.
As this old man say to these beautiful young women, you are worthy of being pursued.
You are worthy of someone being in your presence and bringing the fullness of who they are with
you.
And I just think, I think that gets lost sometimes.

(57:13):
And so if you're with the guy and they're not pursuing, again, it's a great, it's a great
tell tale to be mindful of, you know?
Okay.
I think so often, you know, on the one when I talked about intensity and intimacy, I think
one of the things that's really jacked up in our world right now is that we're confusing

(57:36):
sex for intimacy a whole lot of the times.
Let me be clear.
I'm not anti-sex, but I think sex really muddies the water when you're getting to
know someone.
And it seems like any more first or second date, that's kind of the expectation.
At least that's what I hear in my office day in and day out in this culture.
And I think the physical messes up the ability to really get to know someone.

(58:01):
Intimacy is not merely about sex.
Again, it's the intimacy.
I really want to get to know you.
I wanted to add that back.
And then the last thing, Sarah, I'll say, you know, I've said this to you a zillion times
through the years as you're dating is honor the principle of the triangle.
You know, every wedding I've ever done over the last 20 years, I'll hold my hands up and
I'll talk about at the base of the triangle is a man and a woman, a husband and a wife

(58:23):
at the top of the pinnacle.
The triangle is Jesus.
When only the woman is pursuing Jesus and the man isn't, we stay the same distance apart
or vice versa.
But when a man and a woman both run hard after Jesus and they're running along with that
triangle and they're moving toward Christ together, you know, just by geometry 101, we
start moving closer to each other as well.

(58:46):
And so I know the phrase I've said to you about the triangle through the years is this,
Sarah, run hard after Jesus.
And one day you're going to look to the side and there's going to be some dude running
alongside of you.
There's your guy.
He's not 200 yards behind you.
He's not two miles behind you.
He's running shoulder to shoulder with the same passion, looking to the author and perfector

(59:10):
of our faith, even Jesus.
And so I think for all you women, this is a season where you go, I want to be the best
version of me first so that when my companion who's going to run the race of life with me
comes along, I'm in shape.
I'm running and I can't wait to run it with him.
That's my wish.
That's my hope for every single woman who longs to be married.

(59:32):
That's beautiful.
Yeah, I've heard it a dozen and a half times and it still gets me.
Yeah.
Wow.
Thank you for sharing all of that and sharing your wisdom.
I just admire you so much.
I'm so grateful for you and for your wisdom and for encouraging us women in the season

(59:54):
and seeing us and taking the time to speak into this and the hardships that we face,
the challenges that we're in and then the areas that we are, that we can work on and
that we need to be aware of.
And you have so much incredible truth in there with things that we can easily look over,
the intensity, the addiction, the porn, the things that need to be talked about and not

(01:00:18):
just chasing the fun and exciting, but what is real relationship.
And you and mom have modeled that.
And what is it, 37 years?
Yes, 37 last July.
37 years.
And I just look up to you guys like crazy and so grateful for you and your guidance.
Well, this is an honor to sit here with you today.

(01:00:38):
It is.
It's so fun.
I hope there's an opportunity to do something like this again with you someday.
Oh my gosh.
Well, how are you all next week?
Thank you all for listening and I will put information to connect with my dad, Jeff Hilton
in the show notes.
Dad, this was so much fun.
And remember, even if he is still good.
On the outro, I think we do Rodney Atkins cleaning this gun.

(01:00:59):
Remember that song?
She's her daddy's girl.
Her momma's world.
She deserves respect.
And that's what she'll get.
Ain't it, son?
Now y'all run along and have some fun.
I'll see you soon when you get back.
Bet I'll be up all night still cleaning this gun.
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