July 26, 2024 • 46 mins
Have you ever felt the weight of needing to appear perfect, especially in your faith journey? In this enlightening episode of the Every Day Christian Podcast, we pull back the curtain on the struggles Christians face when admitting their faults, particularly those in leadership roles. Through scriptures like James 5:16 and Proverbs 28:13, we navigate the crucial balance between striving to be Christ-like and embracing our human imperfections. Personal stories and reflections underscore the importance of creating a church culture where honesty is a strength, not a weakness.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What we forget about is the word strive, and the word
that we forget about is theword try.
We are not Christ-like.
We are striving to beChrist-like.
I'm reading about differentways I need to stop having pride
.
I'm reading about differentways I need to treat people.
I'm reading about differentways.
I need to avoid having anger.
(00:21):
Welcome back to the EverydayChristian Podcast, where we
apply scriptural principles toeveryday Christian lives.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm your host, john Rich, and I'm Sean Sloggett.
Today we're going to be talkingabout faulty Christians.
I usually start off withreading some scriptures, and you
guys are going to have toforgive me.
Already I'm in a swivel chairand out of habit, I just start
swiveling around, so if thatbugs you watch, your eyes closed
, you start seeing me swivel oncamera.
(00:56):
If you see me just doing alittle circle, just bear with me
, I'll come back aroundeventually.
Yes, faulty Christians.
James 5 and 16.
Confess your faults one toanother and pray one for another
that you may be healed.
The effectual, fervent prayerof a righteous man availeth much
.
And then Proverbs 28 and 13.
(01:18):
He that covereth his sins shallnot prosper, but whoso
confesseth and forsaketh themshall have mercy.
Pardon me.
All too often Christians have ahard time admitting they are
wrong or admitting to theirfaults.
This is something that hasbothered me for quite a while.
(01:40):
I don't know how long, but it'ssomething that I've seen a lot
growing up and that I believe alot of us in the church world
has seen.
If you haven't, thank the Lord,but my dad evangelized for
several years and I saw a lot ofit in and around different
(02:01):
churches.
We are taught honesty until itcomes to our actual church
circle and I don't understandwhy.
An example this is somethingagain that I have seen
(02:21):
personally.
A young man thinks he's calledto preach, so he starts
preaching.
After a short time he starts torethink it and realize maybe he
was a little overzealous, maybehe just missed the calling
completely, but he missedsomething somewhere and then
(02:45):
they're afraid to admit it, forall the backlash that comes
along with it.
Yeah, because he has to admithe's wrong and preachers and
deacons and leadership and evenchurch members are not supposed
to admit it.
Church members are not supposedto admit it.
(03:07):
They start questioning if thisminister is backsliding.
They start looking down on thembecause they quote-unquote
missed the will of God.
When I felt the call to preach,I had two different ministers
tell me if you feel sometimedown the road that you missed it
(03:31):
, do not be afraid to admit thatyou were wrong and move on.
But several times I have heardof the exact opposite of that
and that's very disheartening.
I agree the ministry is verysacred.
It should be taken veryseriously.
(03:51):
But you can miss it and otherscan miss it too.
Why can't we be honest, brotherJohn?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
You know, I don't even even preparing this like
lesson, this podcast.
I didn't think too often aboutwhat you just said.
But it is very true, like youdon't, you don't realize how
many individuals are sort ofpressured into ministry or
pressured into doing some sortof work in the church or work in
(04:26):
the mission field etc.
And it is hard I believe itwould be difficult to sort of
accept that call or to acceptthat ministry and then, years
down the road, realize maybe Iwas just a little zealous, maybe
I was overzealous, rather,maybe I was just heavily
(04:48):
influenced and peer pressuredinto this.
But it's a point now where it'shard to give up, like it'd be
hard and difficult to stop doingthat, brother Sean.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Or maybe that you just didn't quite get it right.
Right, you know I know peoplethat would make and not that
it's up to me to decide but Iknow people that would make
great preachers.
They wouldn't be horribleSunday school teachers.
And I know some great Sundayschool teachers that would.
I'm not so sure they'd be greatpreacher.
(05:21):
Yeah, I know great song leaders, but they're probably not a
preacher material.
Yeah, maybe it's just that theywanted to do something and
that's what everybody getspushed into.
Yeah, are you going to join theministry?
Yeah, going to Bible school.
(05:43):
I'm sorry, I was just about tomention that I don't.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I was just about to mention that I don't.
I was just about to mentionthat yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I have nothing against Bible schools, yeah
Right, but when people go toBible schools seemingly and I
didn't go, so I'm not makingaccusations that I know nothing
about- Well, I did so, here wego.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Okay, if it's right, he can back me up If I'm not
making accusations that I knownothing about.
Well, I did so, here we go,okay.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
If it's right he can back me up, If I'm wrong, he can
rebuke me.
Seemingly, they are allpressured into the ministry
which is preaching.
But what about the song leaders?
What about the Sunday schoolteachers?
We need those as well, andsometimes you can miss it that
(06:27):
way.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I would say you know, majority, at least when I went.
No, those are actually.
I was thinking of two sides tothe same coin here.
When you talk about like Bibleschool, for example, like first
of all, not everybody has to goto Bible school.
Okay, so that's one part whereI think a lot of young people
are pressured into doing and Iget it.
(06:49):
You know, I used to be that waywhere I've had that mindset.
It's like I think everyoneshould go to Bible school at
least one year.
I think everyone should go tothe Bible school at least one
year and I'm not dogging you ifyou have that thought or have
that desire to tell someone that.
But there is that pressure to goto a Bible college, to go to
Bible school, otherwise youwon't get this proper education
(07:11):
that you need in your life,which simply is not true, by the
way.
But as far as Bible schoolpreachers inadvertently meaning
there was never a minister or ateacher that got up and said you
(07:31):
have to be a preacher.
There was no one holding a gunto our head, but the pressure
certainly was there and I'd say,luckily, but blessed for me I
felt called to preach longbefore I went to Bible school
personally and felt called toteach too.
I mean, I felt all thesedrawings to leadership, I guess
you could say and I didn'treally have to experience a lot
(07:53):
of that but I did see severalpeople that they were fit for a
lot of things and it's not thatthey were bad or less people,
but they simply weren't fit forthose types of ministries, and
nothing wrong with that.
I want people to understandthat there is nothing wrong with
not being a preacher, there'snothing wrong with not being a
(08:13):
missionary or a minister or ateacher.
But I feel like a lot of peoplewho didn't really have a lot of
leadership qualities werepressured into trying to obtain
those characteristics and thoseleadership qualities were
pressured into trying to obtainthose characteristics and those
leadership qualities and notdogging.
You know, I went to Ozark BibleInstitute.
I feel like there's a lot ofincredible people there.
(08:34):
Better than Figbee.
I'm just kidding.
If you went to Figbee, I'm justteasing Shots fired.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Shots fired.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I'm just kidding.
I know a lot of great peoplefrom Figbee as well, a lot of
great people at Ozark BibleInstitute.
I'm just kidding.
I know a lot of great peoplefrom Figbee as well, a lot of
great people at Ozark BibleInstitute.
I don't want to ever take awayfrom that, and the experiences I
had there were great.
I experienced a lot of greatthings.
I experienced a lot of notgreat things, but the pressure
certainly is there and I do feelthat in a lot of the Bible
(09:02):
schools at least, hopefully.
Now here we are, 13 years later, I feel like a lot of them have
tried to stray from that, to bemore welcoming of teaching, but
also be more welcoming ofpeople that just aren't called
to ministry but also still wantto learn about the Bible or want
(09:22):
to learn what it takes to be ina ministry.
Brother Sean, Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, it takes to be in a ministry.
Brother Sean Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, sorry, you were on a roll, I was on a roll, I'm
learning, so that's sort of oneaspect of it.
You know, you think about thepressures that we get to do
different things for God andaccepting those not real
callings, but accepting thosepressures and then later on
deciding, hey, this was amistake.
I think that what BrotherSean's trying to say and I'm
going to reiterate that here isthere's nothing wrong with
(09:51):
admitting to that mistake, orthere's nothing wrong with
admitting to that fault oradmitting that maybe I didn't
meet the right calling or maybeI missed the calling here.
But there's even more to thanjust that.
When it comes to being abeliever, to being a Christian,
there's several things that wedon't like to admit that we're
(10:11):
wrong on or that we have faultin.
You know, I think about ouryouth group, and there's been
times where I have just toldthem flat out I was wrong there.
Let me take a step back andreiterate this or what I said
there.
Ok, I apologize, that's this.
Or what I said there.
Okay, I apologize, that's notwhat I meant.
Let me go back and saysomething else to make it clear
or to make it mean exactly whatI was intending.
(10:34):
And a lot of times, preachers,teachers you have an issue with
going back, you have an issuewith admitting fault, and the
reason you have an issue withadmitting fault is because you
don't think you have faults orbecause you feel and we're going
to get into some of this butyou feel as though if you admit
those faults or if you backtrack, or if you try to redo or start
(10:57):
over that, all of a sudden youlose credibility or all of a
sudden people have lost faith inyou.
We're going to get into some ofthat in this episode.
Sudden people have lost faithin you.
We're going to get into some ofthat in this episode.
But I think, in regards to that, you know, there's so many
levels to this as far asbelievers go, but that's another
thing we sort of take and wewant to be so perfect that if we
do backtrack, all of a suddenwe're imperfect or all of a
(11:20):
sudden maybe we didn't hear thevoice of God like we should have
and we don't want to displaythat to other people.
Brother Sean, he's alreadygoing.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I'm still in his notes.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
He's already going through all my notes.
I've got a mirror behind himthat I'm taking.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Going back to James 5.16, you know, confess your
faults one to another and prayone for another that you may be
healed.
That doesn't mean that you haveto get up from behind the
pulpit, confess everything toeverybody that you did.
I've heard that done before.
I don't exactly believe in that.
(11:56):
Believe that that has to bedone because there are times
where that may do more damagethan it does good, but it's
going to the person, or going tothe ones that you had fault
(12:16):
with, admitting it and workingthrough it, just because you're
a preacher, deacon, faithfulchurch member.
Whatever wrong is still wrong.
And, like Brother Jonathan, Ican admit that I have went into
my Sunday school class beforetaught a lesson, or they would.
You know some of you all knowthis already that I let them.
If they have questions, theycan ask questions.
(12:38):
There's most Sundays we justshow up and somebody will ask
this question and we'll study itout and we'll do a little bit
of lesson on it and then youknow, right there in class, and
then somebody else will haveanother question and then we'll
go, you know, jump onto it.
We've.
I mean, some of the questionsthat I've been asked have been
(13:00):
pretty deep stuff that someother ones that weren't so deep,
yeah, but I have answered thosequestions only to go back home
and start questioning themmyself.
So go do a little more studyingand realize I just told my kids
something that was wrong.
(13:21):
Maybe I misinterpreted theBible, maybe I didn't study it
well enough or know enough aboutit to answer, but I was wrong.
That was my fault and it hurtmy pride a little bit, which is
(13:41):
probably a good thing,especially to admit it.
Yeah, but that very next Sundaywe stood up, we prayed for
class to start and beforeanybody asked any other
questions, I admitted to themhey, sister, so-and-so asked
this question last week and Itold you guys something and I
(14:06):
was not right.
It's hard to do.
I understand that.
The sad part about that wassome of those kids in my class
were genuinely shocked when Itold them I was wrong yeah, yeah
.
(14:29):
And I think that hurt me worsethan having to admit I was wrong
.
If I'm being honest, I've saidthat like three times now as if
I'm a lie, a couple times inhere, if he's being honest.
But it bothered me that I wasnot allowed to be wrong in some
(14:53):
of their eyes because that's howthey were taught, that's how
they've been raised.
Leadership isn't wrong.
If you are wrong, then you justkind of sweep it under the rug
and move on Right.
And I know I've mentionedleadership quite a bit and I'm
not.
I'm not attacking leadership,don't take it that way.
Yeah, but a lot of a lot ofDon't take it that way.
Yeah, uh, but a lot, of, a lotof times it seems to go that
(15:16):
direction.
Yeah, wrong is still wrong.
Yeah, if you're wrong, you haveto apologize for it.
Yeah, romans three, 23 for allRight, have sinned and come
short of the glory of God, allof us.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, I want to interject something real quick
right here.
Take off.
There are three words in theEnglish dictionary that a lot of
leaders and ministers and a lotof believers do not like to use
in the same sentence, or atleast put together.
(15:55):
And those three words areBrother Sean knows.
Most of you probably know Idon't know, I don't know.
And the problem is when we getyou know.
This is two sides of the samecoin, because I've been where
Sean is and I've also been at aplace where I want to seem like
I have the answer all the time.
(16:16):
I want people to see me assomeone they can look up to and
go to all the time.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And on the flip side, you know, some of that falls on
us as church members as well.
Yeah, because we put thatunnecessary burden on leadership
that, if you don't know, I'mgoing to start questioning
what's wrong as well.
Yeah, because you're.
Yeah, you should be studyingthe Bible 24, seven.
So why don't you know?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah, and I think that you know, we, a lot of
preachers and ministers, studythe Bible over and over and over
again, and I think the problemis is they don't we talk about
like, not like wanting topreface things and not wanting
to say things that get us introuble.
But I genuinely think that alot of ministers and preachers
(17:03):
and leaders and teachers andwhatever you want to call
yourself, and we get to saythese things because we are
those things and we also havethose faults.
But I think a lot of times theydon't want to have young people
ask those questions because, a,they don't want to do the
research and, b, because theydon't know.
And so what happens is, yeah,the church sort of lifts us up
(17:29):
as people who should knoweverything and then at the
moment we say I don't know.
It's sort of another.
In a way, it's sort ofadmitting a fault as well, and I
think that we have to sort offlip the script on that, like on
one point as church members andchurch goers, we have to
understand and realize thatpastor doesn't know everything,
(17:49):
that teacher doesn't knoweverything, that leader, that
person that's been saved for 40years, does not know everything.
They are still learning thingsand they're still trying to
learn things in our culturetoday, because our culture is
constantly shifting andconstantly changing, and there's
things that they have to dealwith today they didn't have to
deal with when they were 30 or20 or 16 or whatever.
(18:11):
So there's that side of it or30, or 20, or 16, or whatever.
So there's that side of it.
And then the other side is as aminister, you need to explain or
convey this message to yourcongregants and to your people
that, a you don't knoweverything, but B you know how
(18:31):
to find out, but B you know howto find out.
And that's the problem is,you're asked questions, you're
told things, people debate you,people argue with you and you
want to stand your ground on ascripture that's taken out of
context.
You want to stand your groundon something you heard someone
else say, instead of just sayingyou know what, I don't know,
(18:51):
but if you'll give me a coupleof days, I'll come back to you,
or if you'll give me to nextWednesday, I'll come back to you
.
I think that we need to sort ofcultivate that culture of we
don't know everything but we canfind out, and I think that that
means more to young people andit means more to congregants and
people that are under yourteachings than anything else.
(19:13):
To know not that this persondoesn't know, but this person
knows how to find out, I think,is what's most important, and
that's the mindset we need tostart and begin to have with how
we think of ministers and withhow ministers convey themselves
to us, because I mean to add tothat because it brings a level
(19:34):
of relatability Right.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Too often we put in you can deny this all you want.
It's the truth.
Yeah, we put them up on apedestal.
Yeah, and we can't relate tothem.
And it's harder even just to gotalk to them sometimes, yeah,
you know if it's a visitingminister or you know the
(20:00):
minister that's preaching themeeting or something like that.
It's harder to relate to them,yeah, Because we've built them
up to be this some magnificent,wonderful know-everything.
Again, they're just humans,like each and every one of us
are.
You know, going back to theRomans 3.23,.
(20:25):
Some of us need to rememberwhere we came from, Not some of
us, all of us.
We all need to remember wherewe came from and that we were
hell-bound sinners, just likethose around us.
Some of us may have been inworse situations than others.
(20:49):
Some of us may have beenaddicted to drugs or alcohol, or
whatever the case may be.
Some of us may have been raisedin church, but we were all lost
and dying, going to hell.
We had to ask forgiveness.
That was a fault.
It's always pretty easy for usto look back and say, oh, we got
(21:11):
that one fault out of the way.
We're saved now and then we'reready to move on with our life
Right and you can't admit faultanymore, but we're still faulty.
Yeah, Just because God saved usdoesn't mean that we can do no
wrong.
We aren't God, we won't be God.
And just because you're a childof God doesn't mean you
(21:34):
inherited his perfection.
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Brother John, I think that we, you know I talk about
cultivating that culture, butaccepting our faults and
failures, and there's a coupleof reasons behind that, and we
can dissect each of thesereasons together.
But, by the way, you'reprobably wondering why we're in
such a strange room.
It's because my office that weusually have this podcast in is
(22:00):
so hot right now, and now we'rein this HMA conference room and
it is so hot and I feel like I'msweating bullets.
It's not any better.
So I apologize if you see sweatdripping down our brow.
Yeah, there we go Fan ourselvesoff.
But there are a couple ofreasons why we try to cover our
faults and I want to go througheach of these.
(22:20):
But, first of all, we don'tthink we have faults.
Second of all, we don't wantothers to know that we have
faults.
And, thirdly, because we don'twant to believe that others have
faults as well.
And I want to look at each ofthese in more detail.
You know to think we don'tthink we have faults, especially
after we're saved.
(22:41):
As Brother Sean said, christdoes make us perfect, but he
hasn't made us perfect yet.
Until I get to heaven, I'm notperfect, and you need to realize
that and understand that.
And the stigma yeah, the stigma, especially as leaders, that
they have no faults or failuresis one of the main reasons why
(23:02):
people either leave the churchor lose confidence in those who
won't admit to those faults.
But in all seriousness, I dobelieve, as though many
Christians believe they'refaultless without even thinking,
and it's because of how theypresent themselves or what they
say.
But the other thing is we don'twant others to know that we
have faults, and here's whatBrother Sean was saying.
(23:24):
I wrote this down that wordstriving is huge, but if your
pastor or leader does not admithis issues, doesn't take
responsibility, does not showhis congregation his
shortcomings, I would reconsiderit.
I know I've said that severaltimes in the last few episodes.
Some of you are upset at me.
I get it.
We should never leave churchthat we're at.
(23:45):
I understand that.
I don't agree with that, by theway.
I don't agree with that, by theway, and a couple of reasons
why I have a hard issue.
I have a hard issue withleadership that doesn't want to
admit failure or doesn't want toadmit shortcoming or doesn't
want to admit fault.
It will eventually end uphurting someone and it
(24:10):
eventually cause them to leaveanyway.
And that can be avoided if youwere just upfront and honest
with them them to leave anyway.
And that can be avoided if youwere just upfront and honest
with them.
And the problem is that whenyou give the image that you are
perfect and people buy into thatlie, the moment that you fail,
you lose all credibility, youlose all trust and faith and as
a leader, as a believer, youshould aim to be an open-minded
or open book with otherbelievers.
(24:31):
People need to hear who you are,but people also need to see who
you are as well.
If what they see does not alignwith what they hear, you're
going to have issues Everysingle time.
You're going to have issues, sowhy not change that?
Why not help them realize and Iget it we're not talking about
like the most immoral failures.
(24:53):
I have some of this mentionedhere, but I'm not talking about
if you come out as like somebodywho slept with multiple women
and you're a pastor and you haveone wife.
I'm not.
Those are obviously differentsituations.
Yes, you need to come cleanabout that.
No, you shouldn't be a pastoranymore.
But aside from that?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
No, it should all be announced from behind the pole.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Dude, don't step on Jimmy Swagger now, man, he did
that.
Let me mess with my JimmySwagger now.
I'm just teasing Um, and I canhear people say that now.
Well, if I show them myshortcomings, then that means
that they will have an image ofme that is less than pastoral.
Great People need to have thatimage of you.
(25:39):
People need to have an image ofyou that is more human and less
pastoral anyway.
And I'm not saying you don'tneed to lead.
I'm not saying that you don'tneed to preach or teach against
things.
I'm not saying that you don'tneed to pastor.
I am saying that you shouldlead by example.
Don't expect your congregants tobe an open book and not hide
stuff when they know pastorshide stuff.
Don't preach against thingsthat you claim are sin, only to
(25:59):
find out that you're probablydoing them.
You know, I had a man.
I'm going to get a lot oftrouble.
I had a individual I won't tellyou who it is, it's a family
member who did not believe inhaving a television in their
home.
Okay, the reason they didn'tbelieve this is because preacher
preached against it.
Preacher preached againsthaving a television because it
(26:22):
was a sin, it was wrong, etcetera.
And one day one of thecongregants came to this
preacher's house to clean.
I can't remember what it wasthat they had ended up doing
dropping off something.
This is back in like thesixties and seventies, and they
kept hearing this noise in thispreacher's home.
And they're walking aroundlistening, trying to figure out
(26:43):
where this noise is coming from.
And it turns out that the atticis where the noise is coming
from, and so this congregant ofcourse they're being a little
nosy anyway but this congregantgets a chair, looks up into the
attic and notices that there isa TV up there with a VCR and
it's got the news on orsomething like that.
And so come to find out, thisminister, this pastor, was
(27:04):
preaching against this, and allof a sudden they find out that
he has the exact same thing thathe's preaching against.
Don't preach against thingsthat you claim or sin, only to
find out that you're doing them.
Be an open book, be someone whoadmits fault and I'm not
preaching against or for TVs,move on from that but be someone
(27:24):
who takes responsibility.
You may lose some people doingthat, but I promise you you're
going to gain more people doingit.
The other side of the coin isthe fact that you don't want
other believers to know that youhave faults, either because
they look up to you or becausethey may judge you.
But it goes back to the firstpoint.
We all have struggles, we allhave shortcomings.
We aren't Christ, but we striveto be Christ-like.
(27:48):
And the problem is that, whilewe agree with that statement,
the word we forget about is theword strive, and the word that
we forget about is the word try.
We are not Christ-like, we arestriving to be Christ-like.
I'm reading about different waysI need to stop having pride.
I'm reading about differentways I need to treat people.
(28:10):
I'm reading about differentways I need to treat people.
I'm reading about differentways I need to avoid having
anger.
And the problem is that, whilewe agree with that statement, we
forget about the word striveand we forget about the word try
.
We don't want to tell othersour shortcomings.
We don't want to tell othersand share with each other our
struggles, because we're leadersand because we're ministers.
(28:30):
But I'm telling you that if youhave a mindset that is open
with your people, I promise youyou're going to have a lot less
trouble, a lot less struggle.
You're going to show people A Ican be a leader, and so can you
, because I'm human just likeyou're human, brother Sean.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
It has been proven time and time and time again,
trying to hide your faults oryour sins are way harder than
admitting them and moving on.
Yeah, we are in a politicalyear right now.
Everything's going on right nowand it's political world,
(29:15):
church world, your home life,anything.
Try hiding something and assoon as people get half a chance
, they're digging every skeletonout of the closet, saying well,
you never told us about this,well, you did this, well, you
did that.
And it always leads to moretrouble, just like Brother
(29:36):
Jonathan spoke about.
Let them know, you're human,you can be a leader.
You can be a song leader, aSunday school teacher, a
preacher, whatever it is.
You can be it too.
But these people, they getbuilt up, built up, built up,
and then there's some hugedownfallfall and everybody turns
their back on them.
Right, everybody starts.
(29:58):
It just turns into a giant mess.
Yeah, has any of you ever triedhiding a secret?
Yep, it's nearly impossible Forsome people.
It is impossible.
Yeah, but it's so much harderto deal with.
Some friends of yours areplanning a proposal.
(30:19):
He tells you about it.
Don't tell anybody because it'ssupposed to be a surprise.
Now, for the next three weeks,every time you see him, and
every time you see her you can'tsay anything about it.
It bam, I mean, it's rightthere in the back of your mind.
(30:41):
You're like, oh there's.
Oh, man, I gotta be careful, becareful, be careful, be careful
the thought, try and get it out.
Hide the goofy smile that'scoming over your face.
Man.
I please, sean, be careful withwhat you say, because if you
say something that tips are offthat maybe this is coming at
(31:02):
yada, yada, yada.
It goes on and on and on forthree weeks, everything.
And you don't know who knowsyou.
You know you're one friend thatknows, but you don't know if he
told any of his other friends,so you can't say anything around
them.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
So now you have to watch what you're saying not
just around him and her, butaround.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's miserable.
I hate keeping secrets yeah,not that I'm bad at keeping
secrets, but I don't likekeeping.
And then, after the proposal,you're just like oh man, I can
act normal now, I can be myself.
Just be yourself, get them outof the way.
(31:46):
Whatever your faults are, getthem out of the way.
It's so much easier.
It's so much easier spirituallyspeaking.
If we aren't honest withourselves and this is something
huge if we are not honest withourselves about our sins or our
(32:09):
faults, I believe wholeheartedlythat we are selling ourselves
short of the God-given potential.
Yeah, he can show us our faultsand he can show us what we need
to do, but it's up to us to fixthem.
Yeah, it's still up to us toadmit them.
Oftentimes, I wonder what'sholding me back and that causes
(32:39):
me to reflect.
And have I done somethingrecently?
Have I done somebody wrong?
And I mean I started taking, Imean a deep look at my life to
see what's going on.
Right, because I believe thatGod will bless you for being
honest and being upfront.
(32:59):
But if he can't trust you withsomething, with little things
you know common phrase here ifhe can't trust you with the
little things, what?
makes you think he'll trust youwith the big things.
But if he can't trust you, tobe honest with yourself, what
makes you think he's going totrust you with a Sunday school
(33:23):
class or a congregation orwhatnot?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I think we don't want to believe that we have faults,
but we also don't want tobelieve others have faults.
I think that's where the otherside of the coin is here, and I
think this one hit close to homefor many of us.
About a year ago it was aroundthis time actually, probably
(33:48):
three or four weeks off we did apodcast about imperfection and
ministers, and one of the thingsthat we discussed is our
inability to talk to each other,confess things to one another.
But another thing we discussedwas the fact that we place so
many men and women on such ahigh pedestal like Brother Sean
was mentioning that they aren'tallowed to fail.
(34:08):
We don't want to believe that apreacher can cheat on his wife.
We don't want to believe that aSunday school teacher can
struggle with an addiction.
We don't want to believe that aSunday school teacher can
struggle with an addiction.
We don't want to believe thatthe song leader uses curse words
from time to time under his orher breath.
We just want these people whowe look up to to be role models
to such an extent that it painsand shocks us when they are less
(34:30):
than that, and I get it.
I'm going back to the immoralside of things versus the things
that are like character flaws.
I guess, and obviously characterflaws or different things like
that can easily be forgiven.
But you've got to understandthat man.
There's pastors out there thatstruggle with things that you
(34:54):
don't realize, and there's youthpastors out there and with
things that you don't realize.
There's youth pastors out thereand you don't have to know it.
And you don't have to know it,You're right.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
That's something that I wanted to preface and I
didn't.
I'm cutting you off, but youdon't have to know everything
that's going on.
It's not your job to knoweverything that's going on.
It's not your job to knoweverything that's going on Again
.
I mean, go back to James 5, 16,confess your faults one to
(35:23):
another.
If the pastor feels, or theSunday school teacher or
leadership feels they haveproblem with you and they want
to come admit it to you, that'sone thing.
But they don't have to.
If it's not your problem, stayout of it.
What's the other comment Is A-Bconversation.
(35:43):
See your way out of it, peaceGo.
You don't have to know, right.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I think that that's where my mindset sort of is
going to, is like no, you don'thave to know.
For some reason things likethat always come out anyway.
We could do a whole otherepisode, and we have done one
before about gossiping andspreading things that you don't
need to spread obviously andspreading things that you don't
(36:15):
need to spread obviously.
And so there are differentimmoral failures that you know I
believe should remove someonefrom a pulpit or from a
pastorship.
You know, don't get me wrong,but then there are some
characteristic failures.
You know, there are some thingsthat people, men and women,
struggle with that wouldprobably shock some of you and
that they need deliverance fromyou know, I believe that there
(36:38):
I've been in men's retreatswhere men would just stand up
and say I've been strugglingwith porn addiction and they'd
say, but God delivered me fromthat and I'm like, praise God
for that.
But you have no idea, when youtalk about struggles, you talk
about shortcomings and talkabout faults and mistakes, etc.
(37:00):
On and on and sins.
You know, when you talk aboutsins, the aspect that we forget
about oftentimes is thateverybody is a sinner.
Everybody is a sinner, nomatter how great, no matter how
small.
Everybody is a sinner, nomatter if you're a mechanic and
no matter if you're a pastor.
Everybody is a sinner, nomatter how great, no matter how
small.
Everybody is a sinner, nomatter of your mechanic and no
matter of your pastor.
Everybody is a sinner.
But what's great about all thatis is how they use that.
(37:22):
God can forgive them and Ibelieve that God will forgive
them.
But then God can also use thosefaults and turn them into
something good.
You know some of those guys,you know at the different
conferences I've been to men'sconferences that I've been to
that have admitted to some ofthat stuff and struggles.
You know what they can do.
(37:42):
God can use, though, that thingthat they overcame, that fault
that they admitted to, and hecan use that to be a testimony
that could also change someoneelse and help someone else.
But we see them in such anextent that when they do those
things, it shocks us when theyare less than perfect.
(38:03):
And the thing is, what's funnyis I was thinking about we do
the same thing for, like actorsand actresses, because they're
displayed in television ormovies as such perfect people,
and when they're displayed intelevision and movies as such
perfect people, and when they'redisplayed in television and
movies as such perfect people.
When we hear something thatthey've done, that's immoral.
Man this actor over here beathis wife.
Man this guy over here cheatedon his spouse.
(38:26):
Oh, they broke up here and theydivorced for the fifth time and
now they're married over hereand it's like.
I really liked that dude.
He played in the Avengers, orlike he played in this comedy
show.
I really liked him, but all ofa sudden he did this thing.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
That was immoral or they play such a great fun
loving, lovable character yeah,and like a dad or something
somebody meets him in person andlike this dude's a jerk,
complete jerk.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
You're like dude, there's no way I saw him in this
movie and he was dude.
Uh once.
Once I get Tobey Maguire'sSpider-Man man, he's apparently
a complete jerk to everybody.
I've heard that, but he's a coolguy like in the movies and you
look up to him growing up.
You know what I mean and I knowthat this is a very what's the
word I'm looking for Secularthought process, but we treat
(39:13):
people the same way in thechurch.
We've been watching thistelevision show or movie for so
long in the church that itpaints the preacher as someone
who is perfect, and when theyfail, our whole world crashes
down.
We do that because we compareourselves to their lives and we
see that they are better, so wefeel that they are perfect.
I've got news for you Two sidesof this.
(39:37):
Number one, if you're aminister, you need to admit to
your congregation that you'renot perfect.
And number two, if you're acongregant, you need to stop
believing and thinking thatthese people are perfect.
What have I told you?
That those ministers, thosewomen of God, those song leaders
, those teachers and everythingelse what have I told?
They wake up the same way thatyou do.
(39:57):
Some of them have 50 alarms.
Some of them have one alarm.
What have I told you?
They put on the same types ofshoes and clothes that you do.
What have I told you?
That they have issues andmental struggles and different
anxieties and differentaggravations, like you do.
What have I told you thatsometimes they fallations, like
you do?
What have I told you thatsometimes they fall short, like
(40:18):
you do?
What have I told you?
Sometimes they wake up on thewrong side of the bed, like you
do.
What have I told you?
Sometimes they cut people offon the road, like you do.
What have I told you?
They have pride sometimes, likeyou do.
It would probably shock you,it'd probably make you think
well, I don't want to be a partof that.
We all have faults.
We all have imperfections.
We all have failures.
(40:38):
We all have things that westruggle with.
We all have different demonsthat we face.
But when we confess one toanother, when we confide in one
another, in someone that's notgoing to spread it to everyone
and their mother to spread it toeveryone and their mother, when
(40:59):
we get under the understandingthat not even just ministers set
them aside for a minute, noteven just teachers set them
aside for a minute, but when weget under the understanding that
every believer is imperfect,that every believer falls short,
that every believer needs God,I think that we change the tide,
we change the mindset, wechange this.
Oh, they went to this movie,they went to this concert.
(41:26):
Everybody is growing, everybodyhas their own sanctification
that they're working out, and Ithink that when we think that
way and believe that and werealize that normalizing faults
is a good thing, I think thatwe'll overcome a lot and I think
that we'll keep congregants inour churches.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Brother Sean, For those of you that are already
thinking it, I'm going to goahead and put a bullet hole in
it.
Already thinking it, I'm goingto go ahead and put a bullet
hole in it.
We're not okaying justconsistently doing these things
and consistently messing up.
Faults happen, people mess up.
(42:09):
Brother Jonathan said thatwe're growing, we're learning as
we go and as you learn thatdon't do it again.
We're not okaying.
You can.
Every week you're fighting thesame fault.
(42:31):
That's a little different, butit is okay to have faults.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
And to fix them and to move on.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
And if you do struggle, real quick I'll
interject sorry.
And if you do struggle over andover again, or someone you know
struggles over and over again,forgive them how you would want
to be forgiven, brother Sean.
Forgive them, move on to beforgiven.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Brother Sean, forgive them, move on, don't hold it
against them.
Do you have anything else,smith?
No man Ready to close it out.
All right, it's hot in herewe're sweating.
We want to thank you all forlistening in again.
Yes, I've been doing it about ayear and a half now.
Yeah, man, I've enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
It about a year and a half now.
Yeah, man.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
I've.
I've enjoyed it.
I've enjoyed doing it.
Hopefully we get to do it a lotlonger.
Yeah, don't forget about thetumblers.
If you guys want any of them,we do make them.
It doesn't have to say theeveryday Christian podcast.
If you have something that youwant on there, shoot us a night,
you know, say hey.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
I'd like to say If you want to etch my face in one
of them, I totally wouldunderstand that.
Hey, we need to do one with.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Trump and the fist up .
I may do one of those now.
Put you mist underneath it.
I've been seeing some of thatgoing on.
Oh, that'd be so good.
One of those mugs would begreat.
Anyway, I'm waving this waterbottle around.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Yeah, it's not the mug.
That's not the mug we'retalking about.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
If you guys want anything like that, just let us
know.
We've got options, we can do it.
I want to thank you again.
I don't know all of the linksto watch this, so I'm going to
throw that one over to.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
John, yeah, real fast , I'll close this out with that.
If you want to join our virtualclass that's another thing I
just thought of where we justteach in-depth things about the
Bible.
Like, right now we're havingconversation and we're talking
about things and this, theselessons are going even more in
depth on that.
So if you want to be a part ofthose conversations we're going
(44:26):
to talk about, is it okay tohave piercings and tattoos in
our next one?
So if you want to be a part ofthat, please message us and let
us know.
You can find us on the podcastplatform of your choice by
searching the Every Day, EveryDay, or two separate words
Christian Podcast.
I knew that part.
Or you can find us on thesocial media app of your choice
as well.
We're on TikTok, Instagram,Facebook we need to make one for
(44:48):
Truth Social, Anyway bysearching at podcast4him, that's
, at podcast, the number 4him.
And again, we want to thank youall for listening.
We're all the liberal, we're allright, now we're on the liberal
sides.
We're going to we're going tostart going to the more of the
right wing sites as well, justso we have some different
flavors there, but we want tothank you all for listening.
We're going to get into a coolcar and possibly a swimming pool
(45:11):
or something now, but I'mactually headed over to one.
Yeah, so God bless you all andthanks again.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Thank you, you, thank you.
What we forget about is the word strive, and the word
that we forget about is theword try.
We are not Christ-like.
We are striving to beChrist-like.
I'm reading about differentways I need to stop having pride
.
I'm reading about differentways I need to treat people.
I'm reading about differentways.
I need to avoid having anger.
(00:21):
Welcome back to the EverydayChristian Podcast, where we
apply scriptural principles toeveryday Christian lives.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm your host, john Rich, and I'm Sean Sloggett.
Today we're going to be talkingabout faulty Christians.
I usually start off withreading some scriptures, and you
guys are going to have toforgive me.
Already I'm in a swivel chairand out of habit, I just start
swiveling around, so if thatbugs you watch, your eyes closed
, you start seeing me swivel oncamera.
(00:56):
If you see me just doing alittle circle, just bear with me
, I'll come back aroundeventually.
Yes, faulty Christians.
James 5 and 16.
Confess your faults one toanother and pray one for another
that you may be healed.
The effectual, fervent prayerof a righteous man availeth much
.
And then Proverbs 28 and 13.
(01:18):
He that covereth his sins shallnot prosper, but whoso
confesseth and forsaketh themshall have mercy.
Pardon me.
All too often Christians have ahard time admitting they are
wrong or admitting to theirfaults.
This is something that hasbothered me for quite a while.
(01:40):
I don't know how long, but it'ssomething that I've seen a lot
growing up and that I believe alot of us in the church world
has seen.
If you haven't, thank the Lord,but my dad evangelized for
several years and I saw a lot ofit in and around different
(02:01):
churches.
We are taught honesty until itcomes to our actual church
circle and I don't understandwhy.
An example this is somethingagain that I have seen
(02:21):
personally.
A young man thinks he's calledto preach, so he starts
preaching.
After a short time he starts torethink it and realize maybe he
was a little overzealous, maybehe just missed the calling
completely, but he missedsomething somewhere and then
(02:45):
they're afraid to admit it, forall the backlash that comes
along with it.
Yeah, because he has to admithe's wrong and preachers and
deacons and leadership and evenchurch members are not supposed
to admit it.
Church members are not supposedto admit it.
(03:07):
They start questioning if thisminister is backsliding.
They start looking down on thembecause they quote-unquote
missed the will of God.
When I felt the call to preach,I had two different ministers
tell me if you feel sometimedown the road that you missed it
(03:31):
, do not be afraid to admit thatyou were wrong and move on.
But several times I have heardof the exact opposite of that
and that's very disheartening.
I agree the ministry is verysacred.
It should be taken veryseriously.
(03:51):
But you can miss it and otherscan miss it too.
Why can't we be honest, brotherJohn?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
You know, I don't even even preparing this like
lesson, this podcast.
I didn't think too often aboutwhat you just said.
But it is very true, like youdon't, you don't realize how
many individuals are sort ofpressured into ministry or
pressured into doing some sortof work in the church or work in
(04:26):
the mission field etc.
And it is hard I believe itwould be difficult to sort of
accept that call or to acceptthat ministry and then, years
down the road, realize maybe Iwas just a little zealous, maybe
I was overzealous, rather,maybe I was just heavily
(04:48):
influenced and peer pressuredinto this.
But it's a point now where it'shard to give up, like it'd be
hard and difficult to stop doingthat, brother Sean.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Or maybe that you just didn't quite get it right.
Right, you know I know peoplethat would make and not that
it's up to me to decide but Iknow people that would make
great preachers.
They wouldn't be horribleSunday school teachers.
And I know some great Sundayschool teachers that would.
I'm not so sure they'd be greatpreacher.
(05:21):
Yeah, I know great song leaders, but they're probably not a
preacher material.
Yeah, maybe it's just that theywanted to do something and
that's what everybody getspushed into.
Yeah, are you going to join theministry?
Yeah, going to Bible school.
(05:43):
I'm sorry, I was just about tomention that I don't.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I was just about to mention that I don't.
I was just about to mentionthat yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I have nothing against Bible schools, yeah
Right, but when people go toBible schools seemingly and I
didn't go, so I'm not makingaccusations that I know nothing
about- Well, I did so, here wego.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Okay, if it's right, he can back me up If I'm not
making accusations that I knownothing about.
Well, I did so, here we go,okay.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
If it's right he can back me up, If I'm wrong, he can
rebuke me.
Seemingly, they are allpressured into the ministry
which is preaching.
But what about the song leaders?
What about the Sunday schoolteachers?
We need those as well, andsometimes you can miss it that
(06:27):
way.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I would say you know, majority, at least when I went.
No, those are actually.
I was thinking of two sides tothe same coin here.
When you talk about like Bibleschool, for example, like first
of all, not everybody has to goto Bible school.
Okay, so that's one part whereI think a lot of young people
are pressured into doing and Iget it.
(06:49):
You know, I used to be that waywhere I've had that mindset.
It's like I think everyoneshould go to Bible school at
least one year.
I think everyone should go tothe Bible school at least one
year and I'm not dogging you ifyou have that thought or have
that desire to tell someone that.
But there is that pressure to goto a Bible college, to go to
Bible school, otherwise youwon't get this proper education
(07:11):
that you need in your life,which simply is not true, by the
way.
But as far as Bible schoolpreachers inadvertently meaning
there was never a minister or ateacher that got up and said you
(07:31):
have to be a preacher.
There was no one holding a gunto our head, but the pressure
certainly was there and I'd say,luckily, but blessed for me I
felt called to preach longbefore I went to Bible school
personally and felt called toteach too.
I mean, I felt all thesedrawings to leadership, I guess
you could say and I didn'treally have to experience a lot
(07:53):
of that but I did see severalpeople that they were fit for a
lot of things and it's not thatthey were bad or less people,
but they simply weren't fit forthose types of ministries, and
nothing wrong with that.
I want people to understandthat there is nothing wrong with
not being a preacher, there'snothing wrong with not being a
(08:13):
missionary or a minister or ateacher.
But I feel like a lot of peoplewho didn't really have a lot of
leadership qualities werepressured into trying to obtain
those characteristics and thoseleadership qualities were
pressured into trying to obtainthose characteristics and those
leadership qualities and notdogging.
You know, I went to Ozark BibleInstitute.
I feel like there's a lot ofincredible people there.
(08:34):
Better than Figbee.
I'm just kidding.
If you went to Figbee, I'm justteasing Shots fired.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Shots fired.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I'm just kidding.
I know a lot of great peoplefrom Figbee as well, a lot of
great people at Ozark BibleInstitute.
I'm just kidding.
I know a lot of great peoplefrom Figbee as well, a lot of
great people at Ozark BibleInstitute.
I don't want to ever take awayfrom that, and the experiences I
had there were great.
I experienced a lot of greatthings.
I experienced a lot of notgreat things, but the pressure
certainly is there and I do feelthat in a lot of the Bible
(09:02):
schools at least, hopefully.
Now here we are, 13 years later, I feel like a lot of them have
tried to stray from that, to bemore welcoming of teaching, but
also be more welcoming ofpeople that just aren't called
to ministry but also still wantto learn about the Bible or want
(09:22):
to learn what it takes to be ina ministry.
Brother Sean, Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, it takes to be in a ministry.
Brother Sean Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, sorry, you were on a roll, I was on a roll, I'm
learning, so that's sort of oneaspect of it.
You know, you think about thepressures that we get to do
different things for God andaccepting those not real
callings, but accepting thosepressures and then later on
deciding, hey, this was amistake.
I think that what BrotherSean's trying to say and I'm
going to reiterate that here isthere's nothing wrong with
(09:51):
admitting to that mistake, orthere's nothing wrong with
admitting to that fault oradmitting that maybe I didn't
meet the right calling or maybeI missed the calling here.
But there's even more to thanjust that.
When it comes to being abeliever, to being a Christian,
there's several things that wedon't like to admit that we're
(10:11):
wrong on or that we have faultin.
You know, I think about ouryouth group, and there's been
times where I have just toldthem flat out I was wrong there.
Let me take a step back andreiterate this or what I said
there.
Ok, I apologize, that's this.
Or what I said there.
Okay, I apologize, that's notwhat I meant.
Let me go back and saysomething else to make it clear
or to make it mean exactly whatI was intending.
(10:34):
And a lot of times, preachers,teachers you have an issue with
going back, you have an issuewith admitting fault, and the
reason you have an issue withadmitting fault is because you
don't think you have faults orbecause you feel and we're going
to get into some of this butyou feel as though if you admit
those faults or if you backtrack, or if you try to redo or start
(10:57):
over that, all of a sudden youlose credibility or all of a
sudden people have lost faith inyou.
We're going to get into some ofthat in this episode.
Sudden people have lost faithin you.
We're going to get into some ofthat in this episode.
But I think, in regards to that, you know, there's so many
levels to this as far asbelievers go, but that's another
thing we sort of take and wewant to be so perfect that if we
do backtrack, all of a suddenwe're imperfect or all of a
(11:20):
sudden maybe we didn't hear thevoice of God like we should have
and we don't want to displaythat to other people.
Brother Sean, he's alreadygoing.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I'm still in his notes.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
He's already going through all my notes.
I've got a mirror behind himthat I'm taking.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Going back to James 5.16, you know, confess your
faults one to another and prayone for another that you may be
healed.
That doesn't mean that you haveto get up from behind the
pulpit, confess everything toeverybody that you did.
I've heard that done before.
I don't exactly believe in that.
(11:56):
Believe that that has to bedone because there are times
where that may do more damagethan it does good, but it's
going to the person, or going tothe ones that you had fault
(12:16):
with, admitting it and workingthrough it, just because you're
a preacher, deacon, faithfulchurch member.
Whatever wrong is still wrong.
And, like Brother Jonathan, Ican admit that I have went into
my Sunday school class beforetaught a lesson, or they would.
You know some of you all knowthis already that I let them.
If they have questions, theycan ask questions.
(12:38):
There's most Sundays we justshow up and somebody will ask
this question and we'll study itout and we'll do a little bit
of lesson on it and then youknow, right there in class, and
then somebody else will haveanother question and then we'll
go, you know, jump onto it.
We've.
I mean, some of the questionsthat I've been asked have been
(13:00):
pretty deep stuff that someother ones that weren't so deep,
yeah, but I have answered thosequestions only to go back home
and start questioning themmyself.
So go do a little more studyingand realize I just told my kids
something that was wrong.
(13:21):
Maybe I misinterpreted theBible, maybe I didn't study it
well enough or know enough aboutit to answer, but I was wrong.
That was my fault and it hurtmy pride a little bit, which is
(13:41):
probably a good thing,especially to admit it.
Yeah, but that very next Sundaywe stood up, we prayed for
class to start and beforeanybody asked any other
questions, I admitted to themhey, sister, so-and-so asked
this question last week and Itold you guys something and I
(14:06):
was not right.
It's hard to do.
I understand that.
The sad part about that wassome of those kids in my class
were genuinely shocked when Itold them I was wrong yeah, yeah
.
(14:29):
And I think that hurt me worsethan having to admit I was wrong
.
If I'm being honest, I've saidthat like three times now as if
I'm a lie, a couple times inhere, if he's being honest.
But it bothered me that I wasnot allowed to be wrong in some
(14:53):
of their eyes because that's howthey were taught, that's how
they've been raised.
Leadership isn't wrong.
If you are wrong, then you justkind of sweep it under the rug
and move on Right.
And I know I've mentionedleadership quite a bit and I'm
not.
I'm not attacking leadership,don't take it that way.
Yeah, but a lot of a lot ofDon't take it that way.
Yeah, uh, but a lot, of, a lotof times it seems to go that
(15:16):
direction.
Yeah, wrong is still wrong.
Yeah, if you're wrong, you haveto apologize for it.
Yeah, romans three, 23 for allRight, have sinned and come
short of the glory of God, allof us.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, I want to interject something real quick
right here.
Take off.
There are three words in theEnglish dictionary that a lot of
leaders and ministers and a lotof believers do not like to use
in the same sentence, or atleast put together.
(15:55):
And those three words areBrother Sean knows.
Most of you probably know Idon't know, I don't know.
And the problem is when we getyou know.
This is two sides of the samecoin, because I've been where
Sean is and I've also been at aplace where I want to seem like
I have the answer all the time.
(16:16):
I want people to see me assomeone they can look up to and
go to all the time.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And on the flip side, you know, some of that falls on
us as church members as well.
Yeah, because we put thatunnecessary burden on leadership
that, if you don't know, I'mgoing to start questioning
what's wrong as well.
Yeah, because you're.
Yeah, you should be studyingthe Bible 24, seven.
So why don't you know?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah, and I think that you know, we, a lot of
preachers and ministers, studythe Bible over and over and over
again, and I think the problemis is they don't we talk about
like, not like wanting topreface things and not wanting
to say things that get us introuble.
But I genuinely think that alot of ministers and preachers
(17:03):
and leaders and teachers andwhatever you want to call
yourself, and we get to saythese things because we are
those things and we also havethose faults.
But I think a lot of times theydon't want to have young people
ask those questions because, a,they don't want to do the
research and, b, because theydon't know.
And so what happens is, yeah,the church sort of lifts us up
(17:29):
as people who should knoweverything and then at the
moment we say I don't know.
It's sort of another.
In a way, it's sort ofadmitting a fault as well, and I
think that we have to sort offlip the script on that, like on
one point as church members andchurch goers, we have to
understand and realize thatpastor doesn't know everything,
(17:49):
that teacher doesn't knoweverything, that leader, that
person that's been saved for 40years, does not know everything.
They are still learning thingsand they're still trying to
learn things in our culturetoday, because our culture is
constantly shifting andconstantly changing, and there's
things that they have to dealwith today they didn't have to
deal with when they were 30 or20 or 16 or whatever.
(18:11):
So there's that side of it or30, or 20, or 16, or whatever.
So there's that side of it.
And then the other side is as aminister, you need to explain or
convey this message to yourcongregants and to your people
that, a you don't knoweverything, but B you know how
(18:31):
to find out, but B you know howto find out.
And that's the problem is,you're asked questions, you're
told things, people debate you,people argue with you and you
want to stand your ground on ascripture that's taken out of
context.
You want to stand your groundon something you heard someone
else say, instead of just sayingyou know what, I don't know,
(18:51):
but if you'll give me a coupleof days, I'll come back to you,
or if you'll give me to nextWednesday, I'll come back to you
.
I think that we need to sort ofcultivate that culture of we
don't know everything but we canfind out, and I think that that
means more to young people andit means more to congregants and
people that are under yourteachings than anything else.
(19:13):
To know not that this persondoesn't know, but this person
knows how to find out, I think,is what's most important, and
that's the mindset we need tostart and begin to have with how
we think of ministers and withhow ministers convey themselves
to us, because I mean to add tothat because it brings a level
(19:34):
of relatability Right.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Too often we put in you can deny this all you want.
It's the truth.
Yeah, we put them up on apedestal.
Yeah, and we can't relate tothem.
And it's harder even just to gotalk to them sometimes, yeah,
you know if it's a visitingminister or you know the
(20:00):
minister that's preaching themeeting or something like that.
It's harder to relate to them,yeah, Because we've built them
up to be this some magnificent,wonderful know-everything.
Again, they're just humans,like each and every one of us
are.
You know, going back to theRomans 3.23,.
(20:25):
Some of us need to rememberwhere we came from, Not some of
us, all of us.
We all need to remember wherewe came from and that we were
hell-bound sinners, just likethose around us.
Some of us may have been inworse situations than others.
(20:49):
Some of us may have beenaddicted to drugs or alcohol, or
whatever the case may be.
Some of us may have been raisedin church, but we were all lost
and dying, going to hell.
We had to ask forgiveness.
That was a fault.
It's always pretty easy for usto look back and say, oh, we got
(21:11):
that one fault out of the way.
We're saved now and then we'reready to move on with our life
Right and you can't admit faultanymore, but we're still faulty.
Yeah, Just because God saved usdoesn't mean that we can do no
wrong.
We aren't God, we won't be God.
And just because you're a childof God doesn't mean you
(21:34):
inherited his perfection.
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Brother John, I think that we, you know I talk about
cultivating that culture, butaccepting our faults and
failures, and there's a coupleof reasons behind that, and we
can dissect each of thesereasons together.
But, by the way, you'reprobably wondering why we're in
such a strange room.
It's because my office that weusually have this podcast in is
(22:00):
so hot right now, and now we'rein this HMA conference room and
it is so hot and I feel like I'msweating bullets.
It's not any better.
So I apologize if you see sweatdripping down our brow.
Yeah, there we go Fan ourselvesoff.
But there are a couple ofreasons why we try to cover our
faults and I want to go througheach of these.
(22:20):
But, first of all, we don'tthink we have faults.
Second of all, we don't wantothers to know that we have
faults.
And, thirdly, because we don'twant to believe that others have
faults as well.
And I want to look at each ofthese in more detail.
You know to think we don'tthink we have faults, especially
after we're saved.
(22:41):
As Brother Sean said, christdoes make us perfect, but he
hasn't made us perfect yet.
Until I get to heaven, I'm notperfect, and you need to realize
that and understand that.
And the stigma yeah, the stigma, especially as leaders, that
they have no faults or failuresis one of the main reasons why
(23:02):
people either leave the churchor lose confidence in those who
won't admit to those faults.
But in all seriousness, I dobelieve, as though many
Christians believe they'refaultless without even thinking,
and it's because of how theypresent themselves or what they
say.
But the other thing is we don'twant others to know that we
have faults, and here's whatBrother Sean was saying.
(23:24):
I wrote this down that wordstriving is huge, but if your
pastor or leader does not admithis issues, doesn't take
responsibility, does not showhis congregation his
shortcomings, I would reconsiderit.
I know I've said that severaltimes in the last few episodes.
Some of you are upset at me.
I get it.
We should never leave churchthat we're at.
(23:45):
I understand that.
I don't agree with that, by theway.
I don't agree with that, by theway, and a couple of reasons
why I have a hard issue.
I have a hard issue withleadership that doesn't want to
admit failure or doesn't want toadmit shortcoming or doesn't
want to admit fault.
It will eventually end uphurting someone and it
(24:10):
eventually cause them to leaveanyway.
And that can be avoided if youwere just upfront and honest
with them them to leave anyway.
And that can be avoided if youwere just upfront and honest
with them.
And the problem is that whenyou give the image that you are
perfect and people buy into thatlie, the moment that you fail,
you lose all credibility, youlose all trust and faith and as
a leader, as a believer, youshould aim to be an open-minded
or open book with otherbelievers.
(24:31):
People need to hear who you are,but people also need to see who
you are as well.
If what they see does not alignwith what they hear, you're
going to have issues Everysingle time.
You're going to have issues, sowhy not change that?
Why not help them realize and Iget it we're not talking about
like the most immoral failures.
(24:53):
I have some of this mentionedhere, but I'm not talking about
if you come out as like somebodywho slept with multiple women
and you're a pastor and you haveone wife.
I'm not.
Those are obviously differentsituations.
Yes, you need to come cleanabout that.
No, you shouldn't be a pastoranymore.
But aside from that?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
No, it should all be announced from behind the pole.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Dude, don't step on Jimmy Swagger now, man, he did
that.
Let me mess with my JimmySwagger now.
I'm just teasing Um, and I canhear people say that now.
Well, if I show them myshortcomings, then that means
that they will have an image ofme that is less than pastoral.
Great People need to have thatimage of you.
(25:39):
People need to have an image ofyou that is more human and less
pastoral anyway.
And I'm not saying you don'tneed to lead.
I'm not saying that you don'tneed to preach or teach against
things.
I'm not saying that you don'tneed to pastor.
I am saying that you shouldlead by example.
Don't expect your congregants tobe an open book and not hide
stuff when they know pastorshide stuff.
Don't preach against thingsthat you claim are sin, only to
(25:59):
find out that you're probablydoing them.
You know, I had a man.
I'm going to get a lot oftrouble.
I had a individual I won't tellyou who it is, it's a family
member who did not believe inhaving a television in their
home.
Okay, the reason they didn'tbelieve this is because preacher
preached against it.
Preacher preached againsthaving a television because it
(26:22):
was a sin, it was wrong, etcetera.
And one day one of thecongregants came to this
preacher's house to clean.
I can't remember what it wasthat they had ended up doing
dropping off something.
This is back in like thesixties and seventies, and they
kept hearing this noise in thispreacher's home.
And they're walking aroundlistening, trying to figure out
(26:43):
where this noise is coming from.
And it turns out that the atticis where the noise is coming
from, and so this congregant ofcourse they're being a little
nosy anyway but this congregantgets a chair, looks up into the
attic and notices that there isa TV up there with a VCR and
it's got the news on orsomething like that.
And so come to find out, thisminister, this pastor, was
(27:04):
preaching against this, and allof a sudden they find out that
he has the exact same thing thathe's preaching against.
Don't preach against thingsthat you claim or sin, only to
find out that you're doing them.
Be an open book, be someone whoadmits fault and I'm not
preaching against or for TVs,move on from that but be someone
(27:24):
who takes responsibility.
You may lose some people doingthat, but I promise you you're
going to gain more people doingit.
The other side of the coin isthe fact that you don't want
other believers to know that youhave faults, either because
they look up to you or becausethey may judge you.
But it goes back to the firstpoint.
We all have struggles, we allhave shortcomings.
We aren't Christ, but we striveto be Christ-like.
(27:48):
And the problem is that, whilewe agree with that statement,
the word we forget about is theword strive, and the word that
we forget about is the word try.
We are not Christ-like, we arestriving to be Christ-like.
I'm reading about different waysI need to stop having pride.
I'm reading about differentways I need to treat people.
(28:10):
I'm reading about differentways I need to treat people.
I'm reading about differentways I need to avoid having
anger.
And the problem is that, whilewe agree with that statement, we
forget about the word striveand we forget about the word try
.
We don't want to tell othersour shortcomings.
We don't want to tell othersand share with each other our
struggles, because we're leadersand because we're ministers.
(28:30):
But I'm telling you that if youhave a mindset that is open
with your people, I promise youyou're going to have a lot less
trouble, a lot less struggle.
You're going to show people A Ican be a leader, and so can you
, because I'm human just likeyou're human, brother Sean.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
It has been proven time and time and time again,
trying to hide your faults oryour sins are way harder than
admitting them and moving on.
Yeah, we are in a politicalyear right now.
Everything's going on right nowand it's political world,
(29:15):
church world, your home life,anything.
Try hiding something and assoon as people get half a chance
, they're digging every skeletonout of the closet, saying well,
you never told us about this,well, you did this, well, you
did that.
And it always leads to moretrouble, just like Brother
(29:36):
Jonathan spoke about.
Let them know, you're human,you can be a leader.
You can be a song leader, aSunday school teacher, a
preacher, whatever it is.
You can be it too.
But these people, they getbuilt up, built up, built up,
and then there's some hugedownfallfall and everybody turns
their back on them.
Right, everybody starts.
(29:58):
It just turns into a giant mess.
Yeah, has any of you ever triedhiding a secret?
Yep, it's nearly impossible Forsome people.
It is impossible.
Yeah, but it's so much harderto deal with.
Some friends of yours areplanning a proposal.
(30:19):
He tells you about it.
Don't tell anybody because it'ssupposed to be a surprise.
Now, for the next three weeks,every time you see him, and
every time you see her you can'tsay anything about it.
It bam, I mean, it's rightthere in the back of your mind.
(30:41):
You're like, oh there's.
Oh, man, I gotta be careful, becareful, be careful, be careful
the thought, try and get it out.
Hide the goofy smile that'scoming over your face.
Man.
I please, sean, be careful withwhat you say, because if you
say something that tips are offthat maybe this is coming at
(31:02):
yada, yada, yada.
It goes on and on and on forthree weeks, everything.
And you don't know who knowsyou.
You know you're one friend thatknows, but you don't know if he
told any of his other friends,so you can't say anything around
them.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
So now you have to watch what you're saying not
just around him and her, butaround.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's miserable.
I hate keeping secrets yeah,not that I'm bad at keeping
secrets, but I don't likekeeping.
And then, after the proposal,you're just like oh man, I can
act normal now, I can be myself.
Just be yourself, get them outof the way.
(31:46):
Whatever your faults are, getthem out of the way.
It's so much easier.
It's so much easier spirituallyspeaking.
If we aren't honest withourselves and this is something
huge if we are not honest withourselves about our sins or our
(32:09):
faults, I believe wholeheartedlythat we are selling ourselves
short of the God-given potential.
Yeah, he can show us our faultsand he can show us what we need
to do, but it's up to us to fixthem.
Yeah, it's still up to us toadmit them.
Oftentimes, I wonder what'sholding me back and that causes
(32:39):
me to reflect.
And have I done somethingrecently?
Have I done somebody wrong?
And I mean I started taking, Imean a deep look at my life to
see what's going on.
Right, because I believe thatGod will bless you for being
honest and being upfront.
(32:59):
But if he can't trust you withsomething, with little things
you know common phrase here ifhe can't trust you with the
little things, what?
makes you think he'll trust youwith the big things.
But if he can't trust you, tobe honest with yourself, what
makes you think he's going totrust you with a Sunday school
(33:23):
class or a congregation orwhatnot?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I think we don't want to believe that we have faults,
but we also don't want tobelieve others have faults.
I think that's where the otherside of the coin is here, and I
think this one hit close to homefor many of us.
About a year ago it was aroundthis time actually, probably
(33:48):
three or four weeks off we did apodcast about imperfection and
ministers, and one of the thingsthat we discussed is our
inability to talk to each other,confess things to one another.
But another thing we discussedwas the fact that we place so
many men and women on such ahigh pedestal like Brother Sean
was mentioning that they aren'tallowed to fail.
(34:08):
We don't want to believe that apreacher can cheat on his wife.
We don't want to believe that aSunday school teacher can
struggle with an addiction.
We don't want to believe that aSunday school teacher can
struggle with an addiction.
We don't want to believe thatthe song leader uses curse words
from time to time under his orher breath.
We just want these people whowe look up to to be role models
to such an extent that it painsand shocks us when they are less
(34:30):
than that, and I get it.
I'm going back to the immoralside of things versus the things
that are like character flaws.
I guess, and obviously characterflaws or different things like
that can easily be forgiven.
But you've got to understandthat man.
There's pastors out there thatstruggle with things that you
(34:54):
don't realize, and there's youthpastors out there and with
things that you don't realize.
There's youth pastors out thereand you don't have to know it.
And you don't have to know it,You're right.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
That's something that I wanted to preface and I
didn't.
I'm cutting you off, but youdon't have to know everything
that's going on.
It's not your job to knoweverything that's going on.
It's not your job to knoweverything that's going on Again
.
I mean, go back to James 5, 16,confess your faults one to
(35:23):
another.
If the pastor feels, or theSunday school teacher or
leadership feels they haveproblem with you and they want
to come admit it to you, that'sone thing.
But they don't have to.
If it's not your problem, stayout of it.
What's the other comment Is A-Bconversation.
(35:43):
See your way out of it, peaceGo.
You don't have to know, right.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I think that that's where my mindset sort of is
going to, is like no, you don'thave to know.
For some reason things likethat always come out anyway.
We could do a whole otherepisode, and we have done one
before about gossiping andspreading things that you don't
need to spread obviously andspreading things that you don't
(36:15):
need to spread obviously.
And so there are differentimmoral failures that you know I
believe should remove someonefrom a pulpit or from a
pastorship.
You know, don't get me wrong,but then there are some
characteristic failures.
You know, there are some thingsthat people, men and women,
struggle with that wouldprobably shock some of you and
that they need deliverance fromyou know, I believe that there
(36:38):
I've been in men's retreatswhere men would just stand up
and say I've been strugglingwith porn addiction and they'd
say, but God delivered me fromthat and I'm like, praise God
for that.
But you have no idea, when youtalk about struggles, you talk
about shortcomings and talkabout faults and mistakes, etc.
(37:00):
On and on and sins.
You know, when you talk aboutsins, the aspect that we forget
about oftentimes is thateverybody is a sinner.
Everybody is a sinner, nomatter how great, no matter how
small.
Everybody is a sinner, nomatter if you're a mechanic and
no matter if you're a pastor.
Everybody is a sinner, nomatter how great, no matter how
small.
Everybody is a sinner, nomatter of your mechanic and no
matter of your pastor.
Everybody is a sinner.
But what's great about all thatis is how they use that.
(37:22):
God can forgive them and Ibelieve that God will forgive
them.
But then God can also use thosefaults and turn them into
something good.
You know some of those guys,you know at the different
conferences I've been to men'sconferences that I've been to
that have admitted to some ofthat stuff and struggles.
You know what they can do.
(37:42):
God can use, though, that thingthat they overcame, that fault
that they admitted to, and hecan use that to be a testimony
that could also change someoneelse and help someone else.
But we see them in such anextent that when they do those
things, it shocks us when theyare less than perfect.
(38:03):
And the thing is, what's funnyis I was thinking about we do
the same thing for, like actorsand actresses, because they're
displayed in television ormovies as such perfect people,
and when they're displayed intelevision and movies as such
perfect people, and when they'redisplayed in television and
movies as such perfect people.
When we hear something thatthey've done, that's immoral.
Man this actor over here beathis wife.
Man this guy over here cheatedon his spouse.
(38:26):
Oh, they broke up here and theydivorced for the fifth time and
now they're married over hereand it's like.
I really liked that dude.
He played in the Avengers, orlike he played in this comedy
show.
I really liked him, but all ofa sudden he did this thing.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
That was immoral or they play such a great fun
loving, lovable character yeah,and like a dad or something
somebody meets him in person andlike this dude's a jerk,
complete jerk.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
You're like dude, there's no way I saw him in this
movie and he was dude.
Uh once.
Once I get Tobey Maguire'sSpider-Man man, he's apparently
a complete jerk to everybody.
I've heard that, but he's a coolguy like in the movies and you
look up to him growing up.
You know what I mean and I knowthat this is a very what's the
word I'm looking for Secularthought process, but we treat
(39:13):
people the same way in thechurch.
We've been watching thistelevision show or movie for so
long in the church that itpaints the preacher as someone
who is perfect, and when theyfail, our whole world crashes
down.
We do that because we compareourselves to their lives and we
see that they are better, so wefeel that they are perfect.
I've got news for you Two sidesof this.
(39:37):
Number one, if you're aminister, you need to admit to
your congregation that you'renot perfect.
And number two, if you're acongregant, you need to stop
believing and thinking thatthese people are perfect.
What have I told you?
That those ministers, thosewomen of God, those song leaders
, those teachers and everythingelse what have I told?
They wake up the same way thatyou do.
(39:57):
Some of them have 50 alarms.
Some of them have one alarm.
What have I told you?
They put on the same types ofshoes and clothes that you do.
What have I told you?
That they have issues andmental struggles and different
anxieties and differentaggravations, like you do.
What have I told you thatsometimes they fallations, like
you do?
What have I told you thatsometimes they fall short, like
(40:18):
you do?
What have I told you?
Sometimes they wake up on thewrong side of the bed, like you
do.
What have I told you?
Sometimes they cut people offon the road, like you do.
What have I told you?
They have pride sometimes, likeyou do.
It would probably shock you,it'd probably make you think
well, I don't want to be a partof that.
We all have faults.
We all have imperfections.
We all have failures.
(40:38):
We all have things that westruggle with.
We all have different demonsthat we face.
But when we confess one toanother, when we confide in one
another, in someone that's notgoing to spread it to everyone
and their mother to spread it toeveryone and their mother, when
(40:59):
we get under the understandingthat not even just ministers set
them aside for a minute, noteven just teachers set them
aside for a minute, but when weget under the understanding that
every believer is imperfect,that every believer falls short,
that every believer needs God,I think that we change the tide,
we change the mindset, wechange this.
Oh, they went to this movie,they went to this concert.
(41:26):
Everybody is growing, everybodyhas their own sanctification
that they're working out, and Ithink that when we think that
way and believe that and werealize that normalizing faults
is a good thing, I think thatwe'll overcome a lot and I think
that we'll keep congregants inour churches.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Brother Sean, For those of you that are already
thinking it, I'm going to goahead and put a bullet hole in
it.
Already thinking it, I'm goingto go ahead and put a bullet
hole in it.
We're not okaying justconsistently doing these things
and consistently messing up.
Faults happen, people mess up.
(42:09):
Brother Jonathan said thatwe're growing, we're learning as
we go and as you learn thatdon't do it again.
We're not okaying.
You can.
Every week you're fighting thesame fault.
(42:31):
That's a little different, butit is okay to have faults.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
And to fix them and to move on.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
And if you do struggle, real quick I'll
interject sorry.
And if you do struggle over andover again, or someone you know
struggles over and over again,forgive them how you would want
to be forgiven, brother Sean.
Forgive them, move on to beforgiven.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Brother Sean, forgive them, move on, don't hold it
against them.
Do you have anything else,smith?
No man Ready to close it out.
All right, it's hot in herewe're sweating.
We want to thank you all forlistening in again.
Yes, I've been doing it about ayear and a half now.
Yeah, man, I've enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
It about a year and a half now.
Yeah, man.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
I've.
I've enjoyed it.
I've enjoyed doing it.
Hopefully we get to do it a lotlonger.
Yeah, don't forget about thetumblers.
If you guys want any of them,we do make them.
It doesn't have to say theeveryday Christian podcast.
If you have something that youwant on there, shoot us a night,
you know, say hey.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
I'd like to say If you want to etch my face in one
of them, I totally wouldunderstand that.
Hey, we need to do one with.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Trump and the fist up .
I may do one of those now.
Put you mist underneath it.
I've been seeing some of thatgoing on.
Oh, that'd be so good.
One of those mugs would begreat.
Anyway, I'm waving this waterbottle around.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Yeah, it's not the mug.
That's not the mug we'retalking about.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
If you guys want anything like that, just let us
know.
We've got options, we can do it.
I want to thank you again.
I don't know all of the linksto watch this, so I'm going to
throw that one over to.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
John, yeah, real fast , I'll close this out with that.
If you want to join our virtualclass that's another thing I
just thought of where we justteach in-depth things about the
Bible.
Like, right now we're havingconversation and we're talking
about things and this, theselessons are going even more in
depth on that.
So if you want to be a part ofthose conversations we're going
(44:26):
to talk about, is it okay tohave piercings and tattoos in
our next one?
So if you want to be a part ofthat, please message us and let
us know.
You can find us on the podcastplatform of your choice by
searching the Every Day, EveryDay, or two separate words
Christian Podcast.
I knew that part.
Or you can find us on thesocial media app of your choice
as well.
We're on TikTok, Instagram,Facebook we need to make one for
(44:48):
Truth Social, Anyway bysearching at podcast4him, that's
, at podcast, the number 4him.
And again, we want to thank youall for listening.
We're all the liberal, we're allright, now we're on the liberal
sides.
We're going to we're going tostart going to the more of the
right wing sites as well, justso we have some different
flavors there, but we want tothank you all for listening.
We're going to get into a coolcar and possibly a swimming pool
(45:11):
or something now, but I'mactually headed over to one.
Yeah, so God bless you all andthanks again.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Thank you, you, thank you.
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