April 9, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode of The Evolving Leader podcast, co-hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender talk to Nicky Lowe.
Nicky started her career working for a Silicon Valley tech company during the lead up to Y2K, where the financial rewards were great but for many their own wellbeing was secondary. After having her first child Nicky experienced burnout on her return to work, as she says ‘underestimating the psychosocial factors that impact women - especially mothers in the workplace’. Nicky became extremely curious as to what had happened and as a result reimagined her approach to her career and motherhood - learning what it takes to thrive both as a leader, mother and woman and for the last 20 years, Nicky has been an executive coach specialising in helping her clients achieve success in their lives without sacrificing their health or wellbeing.
Referenced during this episode:
Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)
The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)
Social:
Instagram @evolvingleader
LinkedIn The Evolving Leader Podcast
Twitter @Evolving_Leader
Bluesky @evolvingleader.bsky.social
YouTube @evolvingleader
The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jean Gomes (00:03):
In an automating world, our future economic
success depends on valuing andamplifying our most precious
human qualities, including ourcapacity to bring energy,
awareness, creativity, empathyand emotional conviction to our
work, but to liberate thesesources of value, leaders must
recognise new value exchanges.
If you want human energy, youhave to provide the means for
(00:27):
renewal. If you want creativity,you have to provide the space
and resources to be inspired andimagined. As the personal
becomes professional, we need tobreak down the barriers to
accessing this precious set ofvast interior resources that
will propel our economy forward.
20 years ago, I was met withcynicism and anger by the board
(00:50):
members of a global oil companywhen I showed them the evidence
that their sleep was underminingtheir performance and long term
health. Being able to functionon four to five hours of sleep
is my competitive advantage. Oneof the executives told us the
reason I was there was that thedata showed that the lifespan of
senior executives at thiscompany after retirement was in
(01:12):
sharp decline. They were dyingsooner today, harnessing the
science of sleep is a routinepart of leadership development
in this show, we explore anothervast source of opportunity to
harness the needs of women, toenable them to bring their
greatest value to the table withthe wonderful Nikki low, an
award winning coach whospecialises in helping women
(01:34):
leaders to succeed, tune In to acrucial conversation on The
Evolving Leader.
Scott Allender (01:59):
Hi friends, welcome to The Evolving Leader
the show born from the beliefthat we need deeper, more
accountable and more humanleadership to confront the
world's biggest challenges. I'mScott Allender,
Jean Gomes (02:09):
and I'm John Gomes.
Scott Allender (02:11):
Mr. Gomes, how are you feeling today? What are
you bringing with you?
Jean Gomes (02:15):
I'm feeling that strange feeling of January,
which is kind of a mixture ofthings, are a little bit quiet
in some respects, and there is alooming storm of demand just
about around the corner, so I'mtrying to kind of get myself
really ready, and I've beenusing this time to do a lot of
thinking and preparationplanning with the team and so
(02:36):
on. So I'm really enjoying that,but I know we're going to hit a
lot of stuff happening. And, youknow, the world is continuing
to, you know, play out in thisvery odd way. But some some
light in there, some positivestuff that's happened this week,
we hope in the Middle East. Solet's just keep our fingers
(02:58):
crossed that keeps on moving inthe right direction. And I am
feeling a lot of warmth andaffection for our guests,
because I know that we'll have agreat conversation for with her.
You know, we've talked in thepast, and Nikki knows lots of
people I know as well, and soI'm really looking forward to
that. How you feeling? Scott,
Scott Allender (03:17):
ah, yeah, I'm feeling, I'm feeling pretty
content today. January has beena good month so far. Felt really
grateful for the time over theholidays with family and friends
and feeling like the yearstarting off really positively
from a work perspective, andyeah, just a lot of gratitude
and a lot of openness andeagerness today, because I'm
(03:40):
really excited to learn from ourguest, as you've referenced,
Nicky Lowe, has joined us.
Nicky, for the last 20 years,has been supporting leaders and
some of the world's best knownorganisations to thrive, both
personally and professionally.
She's an award winning executivecoach whose focus is now
increasingly on helping womenleaders to thrive and create an
(04:02):
environment in which more womencan lead our organisations and
institutions while enjoyingpositive well being. She's our
own living laboratory,constantly learning and applying
new tools to her own life. Soshe lives a life she's proud of,
including being a mom and makinga huge impact to all of her
clients. Nicky, welcome to TheEvolving Leader.
Nicky Lowe (04:23):
It's a pleasure to be here.
Jean Gomes (04:26):
Nicky, welcome to the show. How are you feeling
today?
Nicky Lowe (04:28):
I'm feeling...I can really relate to what you said.
Actually, Jean, I've had alovely Christmas, had some time
away with my family, and comeback in January. I've created a
lot of white space at thebeginning of the year
intentionally. So I've beenenjoying that white space. Been
doing thinking and planning andgoing fairly slow into the new
(04:50):
year knowing that literallyaround the corner it ramps up.
So I'm trying to put all thefoundations in place to protect
my well being as the year aheadlooks incredibly busy, so I'm.
Feeling really good. I'm feelingenergised. I'm feeling really
excited about this conversation.
So yeah, great to be here.
Scott Allender (05:06):
Well before becoming an executive coach, as
I mentioned in your in ouropening remarks, you had a
successful corporate career. Andcan we start with that like,
what? What was that experiencelike, and how did it lead you to
doing what you're doing today?
Nicky Lowe (05:20):
Yeah. So I started my career working for a Silicon
Valley Tech company, and Ijoined in the late 90s, at a
very exciting time in tech,because it was just before y 2k
so if everybody remembers, wewere going into year 2000
everybody thought all of thesecomputers were going to kind of
have a glitch and the worldwould stop. So each of our
(05:41):
customers was upgrading all ofour IT systems. So we were in
this massive boom period, and itwas a fantastic time to be
joining it. And I worked for areally entrepreneurial company.
Our founder was very much likein the same category as Bill
Gates and Steve Jobs. Went touniversity with them. So is this
(06:01):
a hugely entrepreneurialMaverick, and I worked in the UK
for them, and found myself in myvery early 20s being promoted
into quite senior roles. So inmy mid 20s, became an accidental
leader, and it was a reallyinteresting time, because
(06:22):
professionally, it wasphenomenal. I was being paid a
massive salary, all of thebenefits of working for, like a
really kind of fast growingcorporate company. I was getting
to do some really exciting work.
I was selling high end ITsystems into big global
companies, massive revenuetargets. But kind of, as I say,
it was this kind of boomingtime, and I found myself, as I
(06:43):
say, being an accidental leader.
So I was managing account teamsglobally, managing people twice
my age, twice my experience, inquite a male dominated
environment. So I had thisreally steep learning curve of
leadership, because I foundmyself in a role where I kept
kind of looking over myshoulder, going, somebody's
going to find out I haven't gota clue what I'm doing, and they
(07:05):
have promoted me way beyond mycapability, because at that
point, I didn't know what mystrengths were. So I wasn't the
most technical and I wasn't themost commercially savvy, I
didn't really understand thevalue that I was bringing and
what other people were seeing inme. So I found myself working
harder and faster and longer toreally prove to myself that I
(07:28):
could do this. But what it meantis I got really I got really
curious about, well, how can Iadd value as a leader? Like,
what is a leader? What isleadership? What does great
leadership look like? And so Iwent on this journey. I I'm
naturally a learner. I'm alearner at heart, like I love to
I just love to absorbinformation. So I went off and
tried to read and listen andlearn as much as I possibly
(07:51):
could. And I found myself on atraining course, and a fantastic
training course about managingcross cultural virtual teams.
And they did an hour on this twoday training course on coaching,
and I kind of sat there and hadthis epiphany moment where I
realised that actually mynatural leadership style had
been coaching, because Icouldn't tell people what to do
(08:13):
they knew, you know, they werefar more experienced than me,
but actually that was my naturalstyle as well, and it kind of
planted this seed about fallingin love with coaching and
bringing that into my leadershipand seeing the benefits of it
and applying it in the realworld. But it was what led me
then to kind of leave thatcorporate environment. Was I
(08:34):
think I knew that at some pointI wanted to become a coach, but
I was a bit of a corporateprisoner. I was on this massive
salary. I started to build alifestyle around that salary. We
bought a house in thecountryside. We were converting,
and I knew that I wanted to getout, but I hadn't got a clue
what I could do and what wouldpay me as just as well. So I
kept thinking, I'll just doanother year and I'll figure it
(08:55):
out. And I was on holiday. I'dbooked this kind of holiday to
the Maldives. We were a weekinto a two week holiday, sat in
Paradise, and I got a call frommy brother to say that my mum
had passed away, reallysuddenly, really unexpectedly,
in her 50s. And I remembersitting in paradise, looking
out, kind of just having one ofthose soul searching moments of
(09:19):
like, what is this all about,like I'd built external success,
but I was really kind ofsuffering on the inside. I
wasn't enjoying it. I certainlydidn't have well being. I'd
become a person I didn't like,and my last interaction with my
mum wasn't one that I was proudof. So I like, I really had this
soul wrenching moment ofwhat, what? What was the lesson
(09:41):
in all of this? And I think inthat moment, it was my mum's
death, was a real call to say,You got to start living like
this, that you cannot carry onlike this. So I made a decision
before it's 24 hours before Icould get a flight home, and I
made a decision that I was goingto leave the corporate job. And.
To take a, you know, invest inmyself and take a risk on myself
(10:02):
and retrain as a coach and takeit from them. So that's what I
did. And then, so that was 20years ago this year, and I took
a year out to qualify as an execcoach. And actually, at that
point, I had a lot of resentmenttowards the corporate world, and
thought, I just want to become alife just want to become a life
(10:22):
coach. I just want to help othercorporate prisoners, you know,
find their kind of sole purpose.
And I think, but at the heart ofit was this piece about, how do
you do work that you love, butalso be able to show up
personally in the way that youwant to? And I think I couldn't
work out at that point how howto do it, because I wasn't doing
(10:44):
it. And very quickly I realisedthat I did want to work in a
corporate environment, and I didwant to help other people to do
that. And so the last 20 yearsreally has been about doing
that, going into organisationsworking with high potentials, or
senior executives around how doyou live and work well and
follow your ambitions progressin your career, but also not
(11:07):
sacrifice your well being orsanity along the way?
Scott Allender (11:10):
You said coaching is your natural style.
What do you think's behind that?
What motivates that style foryou?
Nicky Lowe (11:16):
A huge curiosity. I think I am curious, and I'm I'm
naturally non judgmental, andlike, I kind of get that each of
us are different, and we thinkin different ways, and I'm just
curious about that. So how doyou see the world? How do you
walk in the world, and whatimpact is that having? So I
think it's that naturalcuriosity.
Jean Gomes (11:41):
And before we get into the kind of more current
stuff that you're doing, I'minterested to to get a sense of
in that journey. Because, yes, along time, a lot of experience,
a lot of you know, highs andlows in that can you give a
sense of, you know, some of theshifts that you went through as
an individual in that journey towhere you are today?
Nicky Lowe (12:01):
Yeah, great question. I think what I now
know looking back, but I didn'thave the language for at the
time, is in that corporate kindof over the last couple of years
of my corporate job, I wasburning out, but I didn't have
the language for that, or theknowledge of what, even what
that was at that point. And Ithink I didn't know what to do,
(12:22):
so at the time, I'd gone out andI'd hired an occupational
psychologist, I think actuallyhelp me figure out who I am and
how I apply that to my work. Andit wasn't particularly helpful.
I actually then went and hiredan executive coach, and that was
transformational. But what itmade me realise was I'd got
alignment burnout, or lack ofalignment burnout, and I
realised that actually I wasn'tworking in alignment with my
(12:45):
values and how important thatwas. So I think that start of my
journey taught me this piecearound what I would call core
alignment. And I almost use theanalogy of Pilates that you know
most people kind of now knowthat if we want to pick up a
heavy weight, it's not ourmuscles that do it, it's our
core stability. And if we've gotthat kind of core strength, we
(13:06):
can approach any weight and notinjure ourselves. And I think
that's what I started to learnat that point, is if you can
work in alignment, you can takeon the challenging roles. It's
not that you need to lean backfrom the challenges, but if you
can do it in alignment with yournatural preferences, and kind of
find your zone of genius withyour personality and preferences
and skills, and align that withyour values and your purpose.
(13:29):
Like that's really, reallypowerful. So I think that kind
of alignment, burnout ormisalignment, burnout started to
teach me that. And then Ithought, Oh, actually, if I just
put myself into the rightenvironment, I'll be I'll be
great. And so I, you know, I setup my own business, I built it
up to be really successful inthose first 10 years. Was
travelling the world, and then Igot married and decided to have
(13:51):
children, and I thought, I'm ina great position. Personally,
I'm in a great position.
Professionally, like this, thisis going to be great. And at
that point, I was actuallyworking with senior female
leaders and big organisations,and was helping a lot of women
manage that transition intomotherhood. So although I wasn't
a mother at that point, Ithought I was well positioned.
I'd got a good perspective onthis, and I look back and I
(14:13):
don't have to laugh or cry atthat naivety now, because I had
my first child, who's now nearly12. So 12 years ago, returned
back to work and literally burntout. So I got really, really ill
and didn't know what was goingon. Kept going to the doctors,
having blood tests, and likeyou, just a new mum. All new
(14:35):
mums are tired. And I was like,this is not tiredness. This is
another level of kind of it waslike every cell in my body had
not got energy, and I just keptbeing told I was an Emma and I
and I got to the point where Ithought I must have a serious
kind of illness that nobody candetect because I knew that I
wasn't well. And I ended upfinding somebody to go privately
(14:56):
and get tests, and I gotdiagnosed. Used with adrenal
fatigue. It's now not calledthat, but effectively, I burnt
my adrenal system out, and itwas a huge wake up call, because
it blindsided me. Did not see itcoming. And as a coach as well,
I did that whole I should knowbetter. You know, this shouldn't
be happening to me. So I gotfiercely curious at that point
(15:16):
about how the hell did thishappen? Because it was a two
year actual recovery to get myto get my physical wellness
back. So it was, it was kind ofquite a long journey of kind of
peeling back the layers of, howdid this happen? You know, to
begin with, I did that. I'msomebody that's got quite high
efficacy. I've got high personalpower. And I was like, obviously
I didn't eat enough kale and doenough yoga and do enough
meditation. And so I went downthat route of, kind of beating
(15:40):
myself up and looking at thepsycho biological side first,
but then started to see thepsychosocial aspects of being a
working mum and how that hadimpacted me, and how I tried to
still be the ideal worker. Of,like, approaching my work like
nothing else mattered, and thentried to show up as the ideal
mother of, you know, I'm, youknow, trying to turn up like I
(16:01):
didn't have work and I'd kind ofgot squeezed in that, those two
paradigms, so that then openedup my my kind of, my eyes and my
awareness and my curiosity tothat side. So a long kind of
answer to your to your question,John, but I think what I've I've
learned along the way is I'mprobably predisposed to burnout.
(16:24):
If I'm not careful, you canpretty much put me into any
environment. And I amconscientious, driven. I'm a
people pleaser, all of theselittle aspects that when you
combine them, um, if I'm notcareful and put the guard raids
in, guard rails in place, I canpush myself beyond my limits.
Scott Allender (16:44):
So knowing that, how do you what have you learned
in terms of how does that informthe work you do now? How does
that change how you approachyour work?
Nicky Lowe (16:52):
Yeah so I used to be very much in the intellectual
space, like I lived a little wayfrom my body. I was always in my
head, you know, willpower,intellect. I've become a lot
more connected to my body. Sothat intersection that you talk
about, you know how importantthat is, and I realised that
over the years how I'd becomedisconnected from my body. And I
(17:14):
think this is quite interestingin the topic we're talking
about, about how I think a lotof women potentially, have
become that way, becauseculturally and some of the
experiences that we have that wetend to have to disassociate to,
particularly if we're trying toshow up in a male environment,
and a lot of the culture isabout, how can we show up as a
(17:36):
man to succeed in a maledominated environment, we might
have to disconnect from Ourbodies to try and navigate in
that way. So what it's taught meis to be a hell of a lot more
connected to my body, my somaticawareness and practices I have
to build in to stay connected,because I still notice how how
disconnected I can be, andalmost to protect myself from
(17:58):
myself. Because, yeah, I havekind of daily, weekly, monthly
practices that are now just nonnegotiables for me that I have
to put in place otherwise I canfind myself in the burnout kind
of funnel.
Jean Gomes (18:12):
What out of all of those things, what's the kind of
non negotiable? What's the mostpowerful one for you?
Nicky Lowe (18:17):
Oh, there's a couple of things, one of which is one
you taught me, John, which isthat body scan of a morning. So
literally, before I get out ofbed, I will intentionally go
connect to your body before youdo anything else. Because even
getting out of bed, I can go tomy to do list, right? You gotta
do this like and I can power upand get into my adrenaline
system kind of straight away.
And then another practice I haveis I've got a seven minute non
(18:40):
negotiable, which is, I spendseven minutes every morning
stretching, and if that's theonly thing I can do for my body
each day, it's and I it's thekind of, if I can't find seven
minutes, then I almost don'tdeserve to have this body
functioning. So I have a sevenminute where I just stretch, and
a part of that is keeping meflexible and agile, but also it
(19:02):
is just intentionally going,there's a body here. Don't
forget me. You.
Jean Gomes (19:09):
I mean, I think you just alluded to this idea that
that we generally have becomedisconnected from our bodies,
and there's this massive sourceof information out there about
how to manage well being, how toyou know, everything, Tiktok,
YouTube, everywhere, televisionand so on. And without that
(19:31):
connection, it's just knowledge.
It's not never going to beactioned. But you alluded in our
in an early conversation we hadabout the global leadership well
being survey that you, you havebeen involved in, and I'm truly
interested to understand whatthe data shows there about the
the gap in gender well being.
Nicky Lowe (19:50):
Yeah, so the the global leadership well being
survey was created to reallyhelp leaders understand about
well being, and it looks atphysical. Um, psychological,
intellectual well being. Itlooks all the different sources
of well being. There's 121questions to kind of capture,
how do we live and work well soit measures it in both of our
(20:12):
personal and our professionaldomains. And there's about 5000
professionals and leaders thathave gone and completed this
survey, so we've got aboutaround about half a million data
sets that we've analysed andlooked at how gender shows up in
this and what we can see is thatthere is a significant and
(20:33):
growing gender wellbeing gap. Sowe know about the gender pay
gap, and we know that it'sclosing, but really at glacial
speeds, actually the well beinggaps increasing, which I find
really worrying and fascinating.
And what we know mostly is thatit's psychological well being
that's the biggest impact. Sowomen are experiencing more
stress, more anxiety, and thatis mostly cultural driven. You
(20:57):
know, women often are carryingthe double shift so they're
carrying most of the domesticload, even if they're senior
leaders, the data shows thatwomen still carry the majority
of the domestic load in theirhome, that they experience more
work life conflict than menoften, and particularly through
(21:17):
the pandemic, what we saw wasthat the social well being
realising that actually womenrely on social well being far
more than men to kind ofnavigate those challenges. So we
were more significantly impactedin lockdown because of that kind
of isolation piece aboutactually it takes a village and
how much we rely on our villagesso and what we also know is,
(21:40):
when we look across the decades,there's, there's a happiness
paradox in that each decadewhere, effectively, women are
getting, you know, more equalityin the workplace. We have kind
of more tools in the home tohelp us. You know, washing
machines, dishwashers, actually,women's happiness is declining,
(22:01):
and that, again, is fascinating,because, again, you would expect
it to be going the opposite way,but since the 70s, it's been
declining. And this piece aboutactually, because we can now
have it all, we should be doingit all, but we're trying to do
it on our own, and we're holdingourselves to really, really high
standards about kind of havingthe perfect home, having the
(22:23):
perfect body, but also showingup and having this phenomenal
career and that squeeze ofactually, conditions in society
haven't really caught up withthe opportunities that we now
have, and how do we navigatethat in a way that supports us
so that that's the piece where Iam really curious about, and
really do a lot of my work withfemale leaders, about, actually,
(22:46):
if we are going to perform atthese senior levels, what do we
need around us, and what are theconditions that need to be in
place that we're notexperiencing the kind of
psychological well being declineand the happiness like I I
realised that I had what I wouldcall toxic success back in my
career. On the outside it lookedgreat, but on the inside it was
(23:07):
it was shallow, it was hollow,and actually it was quite
distressing for me. So how do wehelp people find that sweet
success where it's sustainable,it feels good as well as kind of
looks good on paper.
Jean Gomes (23:20):
Is there any difference in the generations in
this survey,
Nicky Lowe (23:25):
it's an interesting it's an interesting question
because I think actually, wehaven't got a wide enough
distribution of the generations,so I think there's a piece of
research there about lookingacross the five generations to
see that. But what we do knowfrom things like McKinsey women
in the workplace report is thatmore of the the younger
generations that are comingthrough are going, I don't want
(23:46):
to pay the cost of what we'reseeing our senior female leaders
pay. I'm not. I don't want to gothere. So again, the data shows
that every female that's makingit to a senior leadership level
two are deciding to step backbecause they're not willing to
pay the cost, or it's, it'staking too much cost on them. So
again, that's where we're like,actually, we're never gonna, you
know, we might take one stepforward, two step back this. We
(24:09):
really need to be payingattention to this, because it's,
it's, the long term impact of itis quite worrying. You
Jean Gomes (24:23):
when we talked a few weeks ago, Nicky, we talked
about the four M's that we needto surface, to normalise and to
solve for in transforming,forming the future of female
leadership. Can we brieflyoutline the four M's and what
the big challenges are that weneed to solve across each Yeah?
So
Nicky Lowe (24:42):
when we look at this, there's a really
interesting debate out thereabout leadership development,
of, should there be femaleleadership development, or is it
just leadership development,like, it's not about fixing the
women? Is it about fixing thesystems? There's this really
interesting debate that goes on.
And actually we. Don't want tokind of go women need different
leadership because they'rebroken in some way. But we do
(25:03):
need to pay attention toactually, some of the
psychosocial and psychobiological aspects are
different. And one of thoseaspects is this thing that we
talked about called the FourM's. And this comes from the
work of a lady called Joyburnford, from encompassing
quality. And she talks about,actually, for women, they will
experience at least two, if notall, of these four M's, which is
(25:26):
month list, which is themenstrual cycle, it's
miscarriage, motherhood and themenopause. Now all women will
have to navigate, in some way,shape or form, their menstrual
cycle and the menopause, andthey may choose to or may not be
able to have children, sothere's that in the mix along
(25:46):
the way, but each of those has asignificant impact on our well
being. And as I mentionedearlier, that actually a lot of
women, we've detached from ourbodies, we've disassociated.
It's interesting because I wasrunning a female leader retreat,
actually, with our good friendJames Glover a little while ago,
and just before Christmas, andwe had these senior female
(26:08):
leaders, and we were talkingabout, what's their experience
of being a female leader intheir industry? And they all
kind of said, well, we don'twant to be just treated
differently to men. We, youknow, we have a similar
experience. And talked aboutsome factors that were more kind
of psychosocial around theculture. And then I asked them
the question, and how does yourmenstrual cycle or the menopause
(26:29):
impact this? And they were like,dumbstruck, like, literally took
a breath and went, I've neverconsidered that. And when we
dived a little bit deeper, oneof them responded by but I don't
want that be it to be an excuseabout why I can't be a leader. I
don't want to be seen as weaker.
(26:49):
I don't want it to get in theway. And I could really relate
to that about and that's thatdisassociation piece about, yes,
it's there, but it's anannoyance. It's an
inconvenience. I've got to kindof I've got to detach from it,
because I don't want it to holdme back or be perceived as a
potential weakness. And so a lotof women, I believe, are more
disconnected from their bodiesbecause of that so and that we
(27:12):
know has an impact on their wellbeing and also their
performance. So for a lot ofwomen, the menstrual cycle is
almost about what sanitaryproducts do I need, and how does
it affect my conception? Andthat's really the only attention
that we'll ever pay to it. It'sseen as more of an
inconvenience, and what I'vecome to learn is actually the
(27:33):
more that we can tap into thepower of our cycle, the more
powerful we can be. So womencycle, and this is a kind of
it's, it's very dumbed downversion of something I suppose
that's a lot. Got a lot moreintricacies to it. But just to
keep it at a high level, womencycle on a 28 days. Men cycle
over 24 hours. So you couldthink women are more like the
(27:54):
moon, men are more like the sun.
So it's more easy for a man toshow up consistently. And I've
got clients. I've got a woman Iwas coaching only last week, and
she was frustrated that she wasbeing inconsistent in her words.
Some days she could show up andwas refocused. Some days she
could show up and do theseclient calls and was like
nailing it, and then other daysshe didn't want to do that, she
(28:15):
didn't want to make clientcalls, and she was beating
herself up for beinginconsistent. And I just kind of
use the lens of looking throughher cycle. And again, she'd
never, ever done this. Becausethere, if you imagine the female
cycle is almost like thethroughout those 28 days you go
through almost the seasons of ayear. So you'll be in your
(28:36):
spring, summer, autumn andwinter, and each of those phases
of your cycle, you bringdifferent strengths. And what
was happening for her was thatshe was expecting herself to
show up on this 24 hour cycleand just be able to be
consistent in that way, when shecould tap into so in our summer,
we are great for like, customerfacing engagement like that.
(28:58):
Would be a great time for me tobe doing a podcast, public
speaking. You know, that type ofcustomer interaction in our
winter, we're much better atinterception, reflection, just
going inward and listen to inour intuition and just knowing
that a it stops you beatingyourself up for not being this
(29:19):
kind of robot that can just showup con, you know, consistently.
In that way, it also allows youto harness the power of where
your cycle's at and just connectto your body. So, for example,
my personal trainer now, I'veeducated him on my cycle at
different points in my cycle, wedo different training regime,
and there'll be times when I'mreally good at working out, and
(29:40):
there's going to be times whenI'm better at working in both
need movement, but there'sdifferent types of movement, and
there's a lot of research comingout about this now. And so the
more that we can tap into that,I think the more powerful we can
be in terms of our own wellbeing and our performance.
Jean Gomes (29:59):
I love the. Love any kind of way of thinking about
things that gives people agreater sense of control over
what's happening. What can we?
Can we flip it for a second inthis conversation? Just think
about, you know, what's in itfor the man in this
relationship, either you know,partner, colleague, friend, how
do, how do we make it? You know,not just about what I have to do
as a woman to kind of takecontrol of this, yeah, and
Nicky Lowe (30:24):
I think for men, just even listening to this,
just hopefully, just having thatawareness may spark some kind of
interest and curiosity. I, I wasalways taught growing up that
treat people how you like to betreated, and that's a really
good thing. And I, you know,always held on to that as a
value until I learnt more abouthuman behaviour, and I realised
actually, if I treat you how ilike treated, I'm assuming
(30:45):
you're like me. So I think forany man listening, it's just not
assuming that you experience theworld in the same way as anybody
you know, male, female orwhatever you know, just that
getting curious about whatsomebody else's experience is,
knowing that actually peoplemight experience the world in a
different way. And I think, youknow, if you take it as somebody
(31:06):
that's a partner, justrecognising that, oh, you know,
I think men can often see womenas this well, like you're just,
one day you're this, and one dayyou're that, and just knowing
that that's psycho biologically,that's something that happens
for for us, and it's, you know,it's part of our power and
probably our confusion that wemight create if you were
somebody's partner, and justasking, because, as my
(31:30):
experience, my cycle were verydifferent to another woman's
cycle. So just getting curiousand being compassionate, you
know, in that curiosity, and Ithink as leaders again,
recognising that there's somehuge super powers, and if you
can give be inclusive in justagain, recognising, and this
(31:50):
isn't just for women, becausethe more we know, the more human
workplaces are, the more itbenefits everybody. So just
again, recognising that peopleare having different
experiences. How can weunderstand that and leverage it
for performance and well being?
Scott Allender (32:10):
It seems there's so much taboo around a topic
like this that it's preventingthe education and that sort of
knowledge, right? I'm learningfrom you right now, but you
know, in other environments thatwould feel like a taboo subject.
So how do we break through in anappropriate way, kind of some of
these taboos? It's
Nicky Lowe (32:27):
a really great question. And I was saying to to
John, I've got a post that I'vebeen sitting on, literally and
wondering whether to post aboutmy own cycle and putting it out
on kind of LinkedIn and justlike, Oh, that feels really kind
of courageous to do it, and it'slike, oh, isn't that
interesting? You know, justthat, because it is such a
taboo, and I think for women,there's probably a lot of shame
(32:48):
attached to it, and that pieceof, I don't want to be perceived
as different, and we're alreadytrying to struggle in a kind of,
you know, patriarchal world, youknow, does it add another kind
of nuance to that? But I thinkit comes back to all the stuff
that we know about greatleadership, about how do we
create psychologically safeenvironments where people can
show up as their full selves andhave the kind of conversations
(33:10):
that we know are going tosupport us to do our best work
and have the best impact. So Ithink if we think about it
generally like that, I think themore that we can as leaders,
role model that and show itourselves and our full humanness
and be vulnerable. I think ithelps to shift that forward. And
I think it takes people, youknow, and I say this, it takes
(33:33):
people, and it's making me go. Ijust need to share this post and
be willing to take that risk, togo. Actually, if we start
talking about it. How can westart to shift the conversation
in a helpful way, in anappropriate way? You know, not
over sharing, but sharing enoughthat kind of just raises
awareness.
Jean Gomes (33:53):
Yeah, I mean, I'm I think this is a brilliant
conversation. I think, you know,what gives me hope around this
is that there has been progressin and rapidly picking up across
lots of different domains.
There's probably a whole bunchof, you know, kind of huge,
historical, political,religious, all sorts of things
that are kind of holding thisback on so many different
(34:15):
levels. And it's easier not totalk about because of that.
Yeah, but you know when we whenwe think about the topic of
menopause, that's recentlybecome more discussed topic in
any healthy way. Where do youfeel we're on the journey to
normalising and positivelyadapting around that one? Yeah,
Nicky Lowe (34:31):
I think, you know, the data that we're now getting
is really supporting this. So Ithink that the stats for just
the UK alone is there are around900,000 women that are have set
back from the workforce becauseof their menopause, either
because of symptoms or becauseof the lack of support. And so
(34:53):
it's significant numbers, and Ithink companies are now
recognising that. And I thinkfor me, there's this piece.
About, actually, when we'rehitting that as an age, as
women, we've got all thiswisdom, all this experience
that's so valuable, that's kindof getting lost. And there's a
whole again, cultural piecearound, you know, we don't
honour women ageing as much aswe honour men ageing. So there's
(35:15):
this whole kind of, there'slayers to this, as you've said,
cultural, religious, political,all of that piece. But I think
now we're getting more data andthe lights being shone on it. I
think what we're seeing is thatorganisations recognising, if
we're getting these women thatget into leadership positions in
that kind of midlife, andthey're bringing all that
expertise and wisdom, and we'reand we're losing it, there's
(35:37):
like a massive leak in theleadership pipeline for females.
How do we start to address it?
So the conversations that aregoing on and the organisations
that are doing awarenessraising, I think it's fantastic.
I think again, the fact thatwe're creating the environments
where we're having thoseconversations about actually,
what is it that we need? What isthe support, whether it be the
healthcare support, whether itbe just kind of the human
(36:00):
conversations that say, what doyou need right now, I think it's
interesting because I talk aboutAI is my perimenopause partner.
Like, AI is brilliant for mewhen I'm in my brain fog and I
just need, kind of help me, helpme launch my thoughts. Like, I
think AI is going to bephenomenal for that. And I was
only having a conversation withsome uni, old uni friends on
(36:21):
WhatsApp, and we were all sayingthat. But like, actually, this
midlife and AI colliding ispretty good. We can use this
well. So I think it definitelyis something that needs to be
addressed, because we will, wewill see a real negative impact
over time, if we don't, and youknow, 50% of the population will
(36:43):
go through it so and the factthat organisations are
recognising that, I think, isgreat. But again, it comes down
to, are we creating theenvironments where we can have
the kind of conversations, wherewe can address it in a safe and
appropriate way and get theperformance impact that we're
all looking for.
Jean Gomes (37:03):
I'm guessing the kind of the the another driver
around that will be the ageingworkforce. Absolutely, the
population is changingdramatically from a composition
perspective, so become somethingthat there's going to be more
opportunity around as much.
Yeah, and that
Nicky Lowe (37:21):
kind of loops back to one of the other ends, which
is around the motherhood piece,because we're still seeing a
huge motherhood penalty in theworkplace. We the statistics
show that 60% of the gender paygap is down to the to the
motherhood penalty. We're seeinghuge maternal bias still in the
workplace. And actually whatit's meaning is more women when
(37:43):
they become mums feel that theonly option is to to to kind of
downgrade their career or orlean out completely, or the
gender next generations are kindof going, I'm not going to have
children because I can't, Ican't see how I can make this
all work. So when you look atwe've got an ageing workforce
and we've got a lowering birthrate, it's, you know, that's, it
(38:03):
becomes a real, really difficultkind of societal thing for us to
navigate, because economicallyand just, are there going to be
enough to people to support thethe the ageing population? So,
you know, from a purely selfishperspective, we need to address
kind of motherhood in theworkplace and parenthood more
generally, because it's still ahuge issue.
Scott Allender (38:29):
The third M you mentioned is an incredibly
painful one for many, which ismiscarriage. How should we be
talking about what do we need tobe discussing in this topic?
Yeah,
Nicky Lowe (38:41):
I think it's another real taboo subject. So the
statistics show that that one infive pregnancies ends in
miscarriage, but what we wethink is actually that number is
far higher, but often amiscarriage happens before
there's kind of a knownpregnancy. So there's a really
high percentage that mightnavigate this at any point
(39:03):
myself, I actually had recurrentmiscarriage. So I had a my
eldest is 12, and I then hadrecurrent miscarriages, and was
told that I'd got secondaryinfertility, that I couldn't
have another child. And luckily,I went on to have another child.
I've got a six year old, but andwhen I started talking about it,
realising how many of my friendsand how many other women had
(39:25):
experienced miscarriage, andagain, it's a very unique it's a
very unique experience,depending on you know, just your
where you are, who you are,personally, where that
miscarriage might happen in a ina in a Pregnancy, but just
knowing that that is happeningto potentially a significant
amount of women and they again,how are we going to support
(39:49):
that? Because if it's happening,whether we know it or not, it's
having an impact, whether weknow it or not, and just
somebody feels safe to sharethat and then for ask what they
need to get to. Through that andfeel supported, or are they
going through it and silentlysuffering and and that, from a
human perspective, is not right,but also from an organisational
(40:11):
performance, will be having animpact. But how are we creating
an environment where we can, wecan raise those subjects and
just let people know thatthey're that they feel safe to
voice it and feel supported. Alot of organisations are putting
in policies around baby loss,around kind of miscarriage,
around those kind of areas tosay, look, there's policies in
(40:32):
place that you are supported.
You can take time off, you canget the support you need, and
we're here to support you. Sojust recognising that that will
be an issue. If you employwomen, yeah, the woman will be
going through but even if youdon't, you know the the Father
will be going through it andhaving their own experience as
well.
Sara Deschamps (40:57):
If the conversations we've been having
on The Evolving Leader havehelped you in any way. Please
share this episode with yournetwork, friends and family.
Thank you for listening. Nowlet's get back to the
conversation.
Jean Gomes (41:09):
So on to motherhood.
The counterpoint to to this,which is the joy of all of that,
but it also brings a whole bunchof new realities, and there has
been some progress and in thisalso some weird things, you
know, like, but we won't mentionthe name of the investment bank,
but paying, you know, highpotential women to freeze their
eggs so that they don't theydon't leave the workplace.
(41:32):
What's your state of the nationon on motherhood and work?
Nicky Lowe (41:39):
The state, for me is that it's promising and it looks
optimistic, but we're still inpretty dire, kind of archaic
situations still. So what weknow from the data of people
like pregnant and Scrooge the UKcharity have done some massive
kind of work in this area, that,as I said, you know, 60% of the
(42:01):
pay gap is down to themotherhood penalty. So when a
woman reaches child bearing age,even if she's not yet had
children, she often will beimpacted by this. So we know
that if somebody gets engaged,for example, it will be assumed
that they'll get married andhave children, and therefore
might not be given promotionalopportunities, that once
somebody becomes a mum, they'redeemed as less competent, less
(42:23):
capable and less committed. Sotherefore they are passed over
for promotion, or they arenegatively assessed in their
performance reviews. There's allthis unconscious bias that
exists that people might noteven be aware of even exists in
their own kind of mindset. Butfrom my own experience and
(42:43):
working with 1000s of women inthis area, is that it is a it is
what I would term a verticaldevelopment transition. So, you
know, we do have thesehorizontal development
transitions where we gain skillsor we get promoted sidewards,
but kind of when we know that wehave a promotion, it's seen as a
(43:03):
vertical development where wemight be going from an
individual contributor to amanager, or a manager to a kind
of functional leader. It'srecognised that there's a change
in values, beliefs, identity,and that support needs to be put
in place to enable that smoothtransition and really support
that person. And I very much seethe transition into motherhood
and parenthood in that way. Youknow, values often shift, our
(43:26):
identity shifts, and for somepeople, that is a fairly smooth
transition. But for a lot ofpeople, it's not, particularly
when the environment is notdeemed to be supportive,
particularly if they've builttheir career up to that point on
strategies of what I would callthe ideal worker. You know, I
just work all the hours it takesto get the job done, and kind of
(43:46):
nothing distracts me from it,and then all of a sudden they're
like, oh, that's either nolonger what I want to do, or
it's no longer sustainable.
It's, yeah, I'm paying a cost,or my family's paying a cost.
And how do we make thattransition to work in a
different way that supports us,still performing at work, but
also living well if we've, ifwe've sacrificed that part to
have our success. And I thinkunless people are really
(44:10):
supported through thattransition, it's incredibly
hard. And I see the mostly womenreally, really suffering in that
transition, either paying thepersonal well being cost of it
or fighting an uphill battle tohave the authority and
credibility that they once hadin the workplace and been able
(44:30):
to progress their careereffectively. Where are
Scott Allender (44:36):
you seeing examples of practices and
organisations that are doingthis really well and aren't
unintentionally, but, you know,potentially furthering
polarisation and sort ofcreating more taboos in the in
the fact that they're trying totake this on in a healthy way.
Where are you seeing successes,the
Nicky Lowe (44:55):
great successes around organisations that are
putting in equal parentingpolicy? So they're not kind of
going, Oh, as a mother, you willget all this maternity leave,
but as a father, you'll get twoweeks. The progressive
organisations are going, right,as a parent, we are empowering
you to choose how you do that asa family and that as a father,
(45:17):
you have the same rights as amother. And you know,
organisations have taken hugerisks and leaps and investment
on this, but they're absolutelypaying off. I mean, people like
John Lewis partnership in the UKare doing phenomenal work around
this. So those equal parentingpolicies are really important.
But alongside that, policiesalone are not are not enough.
(45:37):
It's the education of leadersand line managers, because what
we know is men that have askedfor shared parentally, for
example, experience thefatherhood forfeit of they're
then deemed as well you're notcommitted to your career. So
there's an education around thebias that still exists. So kind
of I run a programme calledparenthood management matters
(46:00):
about how do you manage parentsin the workplace effectively,
and remove those unconsciousbias around you know, if you've
got somebody that's a singleparent, the support you they
need is slightly different,versus also solo parents. That
might not be kind of coparenting. They are literally
the sole parent. You know thatthe support and resources they
(46:24):
need are different, and everyfamily system is different. So
just that, again, that curiosityand compassion to go, you're a
human. You have a life outsidework. I don't expect you to
leave it at the door. The morepeople that can parent out loud,
I think is really important asleaders, to go actually, I'm
going to go and do the schoolpickup today and not kind of
(46:45):
feel that you've got to kind ofmove side with that of a meeting
and hope nobody notices for fearthat you're going to be judged
for not being committed. Sothose are the things that we're
seeing done really well aroundequal parenting policies, the
education and unconscious biastraining of leaders and managers
and just that more humanapproach to how do we let people
(47:06):
show up as their full selves?
Scott Allender (47:08):
Let's build on that a little bit, because we
have listeners listening rightnow who may not have direct
influence over policy changes.
So for somebody listening whosays, I want to make changes on
my own team, I want to influencethese kinds of things, but I'm
not in charge in that way. WhatWhat are, what's some advice you
have for those leaders? Well,
Nicky Lowe (47:28):
I think there's, there's a, like a micro level
around, you know, as a leader,how do I create the culture
within my micro team that we canhave those conversations? You
know, I know people that work inorganisations, organisations
that might not be supportive,but they've created their own
own like micro climate, wherethey're like, actually, this is
how I want to lead and show youthat I'm a human and I'm going
(47:50):
to respect you and give you theautonomy to get the work done.
How you do it is up to you andhow you choose to use your hours
to do that. I'll measure youroutput and the impact you have.
I'm not going to measure thehours you'll hear, and that
might go counter to the cultureof the organisation, but they've
created those microenvironments. But even if
they're not a leader, just tokind of start to share, if it
(48:10):
feels safe to kind of go, thisis, this is how my life works.
You know, thinking of one of myclients, she she took the leap
of she was a female in a verymale dominated industry. So she
was one of the few onlys. Soonly females was one of the few
only kind of parents, and one ofthe few kind of only solo
(48:32):
parents. And she started to justdrip feed and just kind of go,
just to let you know, like I, Idon't have any flexibility in
that way, and her, her, herleader, was trying to be really
helpful in putting policies inplace, but he didn't understand
the lived experience of being asolo parent, so she just started
to kind of slowly and gentlyeducate him not to say, you
(48:53):
know, I deserve and I need, butjust let you know this is the
kind of stuff I'm having tonavigate, and this is why it
Sometimes might be seen as alittle bit more difficult. I
think that can work really well.
Other things that I'm seeingdone really well is where people
are setting up kind of employeeresource groups to start these
conversations going. So it mightbe around kind of working
(49:13):
parents, or working parents andcarers, or, you know, it can be
around, you know, workingparents with neurodivergent
children, and I've seen kind ofthese little pockets of Employee
Resource Groups pop up, whereyou're finding your tribe.
You're creating safeenvironments where you're kind
of normalising the sharedexperience. That can work
(49:34):
incredibly well to then makemore of a macro impact, but
you're kind of creating your ownkind of micro initiatives that
support it.
Jean Gomes (49:44):
I think, you know, one of the intergenerational
challenges is always to try andit's not to kind of go well,
this generation is different.
It's also to recognise thisgeneration is exactly the same,
but in different contexts. Yeah,a lot of the time, sure, there
are differences, but. That's thebit we as leaders, we often
forget. And I think bringing upchildren, particularly is such a
traumatic experience in terms ofsleep deprivation and new stuff
(50:07):
and conflicting commitments andso on, that it's almost as if
you just desperately want toforget it. Yeah. And so when,
when you, you know your yourkids have left the house and so
on, there's a part of you that'ssort of free again, and you see
other people going through it,and you're sort of going, Well,
(50:29):
wait and see what's really goingto be like, and so on. So I
think there's, there's probablyan element here of remembering
and sort of tuning back intothat to be a great leader in
this. Does that strike you asbeing, you know, something that
we need to kind of,
Nicky Lowe (50:45):
yeah, and I think that's a really, really
interesting point, because Ithink it can both serve us, but
be unhelpful in that.
Recognising our own humanness, Ithink, is so important in that.
But what as what we see play outa lot, actually, with female
leaders. So often the thematernal bias and the motherhood
(51:06):
penalty that women experience,the data shows that it's often
more from other female leaderswith this thing of I suffered.
So why should you have it easierforward? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And,
you know, you see thatpotentially a lot. I've heard a
lot of stories from the legalprofession about I had to, you
(51:26):
know, hire a Nami. Never see mychildren. Why should you be able
to see your children and workfrom home and work flexibly? And
it's almost like I've paid thecost, and you you have to as
well. And so I think thatbringing your own experience to
it can be helpful, but can alsobe unhelpful. And just knowing
that and paying attention to it,I think is really, you know, is
(51:49):
really important. That's
Jean Gomes (51:52):
really useful to kind of bring back that kind of
sacrifice mindset point, what'snext for you? What? What's the
next kind of challenge thatyou're leaning into? At the
moment,
Nicky Lowe (52:04):
I'm doing a lot around, as I said, female kind
of leadership. And for me it's,I'm developing a female
leadership developmentprogrammes, but that really,
really are dial down intoevidence based that make a real
life difference. Because I thinkthere's a lot of great
programmes out there, but Ithink there's still a long way
(52:25):
that we can go that's bringingin the changes in the workplace,
the changes in what we'relearning from neuroscience, from
our psycho biology, from kind ofall the menopause data and all
of the information that we'vegot to create something really,
really impactful. So I'mcurrently in the process of
designing and working andcollaborating around that
Scott Allender (52:47):
wonderful how can people get in contact with
you, Nicky, so
Nicky Lowe (52:51):
I'm on LinkedIn.
Nicky Lowe, on LinkedIn. So n,i, c, k, y, l, O, W, E, Nicky
Lowe, my business is illuminate.
So, l, u, M, I, N, A, T,illuminate. Hyphen, group.co.uk,
and you can find kind of all theinformation over there.
Jean Gomes (53:09):
Brilliant. Well, we'll put that in the show notes
so that people can quickly gethold of you. I found this
incredibly illuminating, andit's made me think in lots of
different directions. So thankyou, and I'm sure people
listening now, yeah, but we'llreally appreciate the
contribution you making intothis, this conversation. Thank
you. Well,
Nicky Lowe (53:29):
thank you for inviting me, and it's been a
pleasure.
Scott Allender (53:33):
All right, folks, until next time, remember
the world is evolving. Are you?
In an automating world, our future economic
success depends on valuing andamplifying our most precious
human qualities, including ourcapacity to bring energy,
awareness, creativity, empathyand emotional conviction to our
work, but to liberate thesesources of value, leaders must
recognise new value exchanges.
If you want human energy, youhave to provide the means for
(00:27):
renewal. If you want creativity,you have to provide the space
and resources to be inspired andimagined. As the personal
becomes professional, we need tobreak down the barriers to
accessing this precious set ofvast interior resources that
will propel our economy forward.
20 years ago, I was met withcynicism and anger by the board
(00:50):
members of a global oil companywhen I showed them the evidence
that their sleep was underminingtheir performance and long term
health. Being able to functionon four to five hours of sleep
is my competitive advantage. Oneof the executives told us the
reason I was there was that thedata showed that the lifespan of
senior executives at thiscompany after retirement was in
(01:12):
sharp decline. They were dyingsooner today, harnessing the
science of sleep is a routinepart of leadership development
in this show, we explore anothervast source of opportunity to
harness the needs of women, toenable them to bring their
greatest value to the table withthe wonderful Nikki low, an
award winning coach whospecialises in helping women
(01:34):
leaders to succeed, tune In to acrucial conversation on The
Evolving Leader.
Scott Allender (01:59):
Hi friends, welcome to The Evolving Leader
the show born from the beliefthat we need deeper, more
accountable and more humanleadership to confront the
world's biggest challenges. I'mScott Allender,
Jean Gomes (02:09):
and I'm John Gomes.
Scott Allender (02:11):
Mr. Gomes, how are you feeling today? What are
you bringing with you?
Jean Gomes (02:15):
I'm feeling that strange feeling of January,
which is kind of a mixture ofthings, are a little bit quiet
in some respects, and there is alooming storm of demand just
about around the corner, so I'mtrying to kind of get myself
really ready, and I've beenusing this time to do a lot of
thinking and preparationplanning with the team and so
(02:36):
on. So I'm really enjoying that,but I know we're going to hit a
lot of stuff happening. And, youknow, the world is continuing
to, you know, play out in thisvery odd way. But some some
light in there, some positivestuff that's happened this week,
we hope in the Middle East. Solet's just keep our fingers
(02:58):
crossed that keeps on moving inthe right direction. And I am
feeling a lot of warmth andaffection for our guests,
because I know that we'll have agreat conversation for with her.
You know, we've talked in thepast, and Nikki knows lots of
people I know as well, and soI'm really looking forward to
that. How you feeling? Scott,
Scott Allender (03:17):
ah, yeah, I'm feeling, I'm feeling pretty
content today. January has beena good month so far. Felt really
grateful for the time over theholidays with family and friends
and feeling like the yearstarting off really positively
from a work perspective, andyeah, just a lot of gratitude
and a lot of openness andeagerness today, because I'm
(03:40):
really excited to learn from ourguest, as you've referenced,
Nicky Lowe, has joined us.
Nicky, for the last 20 years,has been supporting leaders and
some of the world's best knownorganisations to thrive, both
personally and professionally.
She's an award winning executivecoach whose focus is now
increasingly on helping womenleaders to thrive and create an
(04:02):
environment in which more womencan lead our organisations and
institutions while enjoyingpositive well being. She's our
own living laboratory,constantly learning and applying
new tools to her own life. Soshe lives a life she's proud of,
including being a mom and makinga huge impact to all of her
clients. Nicky, welcome to TheEvolving Leader.
Nicky Lowe (04:23):
It's a pleasure to be here.
Jean Gomes (04:26):
Nicky, welcome to the show. How are you feeling
today?
Nicky Lowe (04:28):
I'm feeling...I can really relate to what you said.
Actually, Jean, I've had alovely Christmas, had some time
away with my family, and comeback in January. I've created a
lot of white space at thebeginning of the year
intentionally. So I've beenenjoying that white space. Been
doing thinking and planning andgoing fairly slow into the new
(04:50):
year knowing that literallyaround the corner it ramps up.
So I'm trying to put all thefoundations in place to protect
my well being as the year aheadlooks incredibly busy, so I'm.
Feeling really good. I'm feelingenergised. I'm feeling really
excited about this conversation.
So yeah, great to be here.
Scott Allender (05:06):
Well before becoming an executive coach, as
I mentioned in your in ouropening remarks, you had a
successful corporate career. Andcan we start with that like,
what? What was that experiencelike, and how did it lead you to
doing what you're doing today?
Nicky Lowe (05:20):
Yeah. So I started my career working for a Silicon
Valley Tech company, and Ijoined in the late 90s, at a
very exciting time in tech,because it was just before y 2k
so if everybody remembers, wewere going into year 2000
everybody thought all of thesecomputers were going to kind of
have a glitch and the worldwould stop. So each of our
(05:41):
customers was upgrading all ofour IT systems. So we were in
this massive boom period, and itwas a fantastic time to be
joining it. And I worked for areally entrepreneurial company.
Our founder was very much likein the same category as Bill
Gates and Steve Jobs. Went touniversity with them. So is this
(06:01):
a hugely entrepreneurialMaverick, and I worked in the UK
for them, and found myself in myvery early 20s being promoted
into quite senior roles. So inmy mid 20s, became an accidental
leader, and it was a reallyinteresting time, because
(06:22):
professionally, it wasphenomenal. I was being paid a
massive salary, all of thebenefits of working for, like a
really kind of fast growingcorporate company. I was getting
to do some really exciting work.
I was selling high end ITsystems into big global
companies, massive revenuetargets. But kind of, as I say,
it was this kind of boomingtime, and I found myself, as I
(06:43):
say, being an accidental leader.
So I was managing account teamsglobally, managing people twice
my age, twice my experience, inquite a male dominated
environment. So I had thisreally steep learning curve of
leadership, because I foundmyself in a role where I kept
kind of looking over myshoulder, going, somebody's
going to find out I haven't gota clue what I'm doing, and they
(07:05):
have promoted me way beyond mycapability, because at that
point, I didn't know what mystrengths were. So I wasn't the
most technical and I wasn't themost commercially savvy, I
didn't really understand thevalue that I was bringing and
what other people were seeing inme. So I found myself working
harder and faster and longer toreally prove to myself that I
(07:28):
could do this. But what it meantis I got really I got really
curious about, well, how can Iadd value as a leader? Like,
what is a leader? What isleadership? What does great
leadership look like? And so Iwent on this journey. I I'm
naturally a learner. I'm alearner at heart, like I love to
I just love to absorbinformation. So I went off and
tried to read and listen andlearn as much as I possibly
(07:51):
could. And I found myself on atraining course, and a fantastic
training course about managingcross cultural virtual teams.
And they did an hour on this twoday training course on coaching,
and I kind of sat there and hadthis epiphany moment where I
realised that actually mynatural leadership style had
been coaching, because Icouldn't tell people what to do
(08:13):
they knew, you know, they werefar more experienced than me,
but actually that was my naturalstyle as well, and it kind of
planted this seed about fallingin love with coaching and
bringing that into my leadershipand seeing the benefits of it
and applying it in the realworld. But it was what led me
then to kind of leave thatcorporate environment. Was I
(08:34):
think I knew that at some pointI wanted to become a coach, but
I was a bit of a corporateprisoner. I was on this massive
salary. I started to build alifestyle around that salary. We
bought a house in thecountryside. We were converting,
and I knew that I wanted to getout, but I hadn't got a clue
what I could do and what wouldpay me as just as well. So I
kept thinking, I'll just doanother year and I'll figure it
(08:55):
out. And I was on holiday. I'dbooked this kind of holiday to
the Maldives. We were a weekinto a two week holiday, sat in
Paradise, and I got a call frommy brother to say that my mum
had passed away, reallysuddenly, really unexpectedly,
in her 50s. And I remembersitting in paradise, looking
out, kind of just having one ofthose soul searching moments of
(09:19):
like, what is this all about,like I'd built external success,
but I was really kind ofsuffering on the inside. I
wasn't enjoying it. I certainlydidn't have well being. I'd
become a person I didn't like,and my last interaction with my
mum wasn't one that I was proudof. So I like, I really had this
soul wrenching moment ofwhat, what? What was the lesson
(09:41):
in all of this? And I think inthat moment, it was my mum's
death, was a real call to say,You got to start living like
this, that you cannot carry onlike this. So I made a decision
before it's 24 hours before Icould get a flight home, and I
made a decision that I was goingto leave the corporate job. And.
To take a, you know, invest inmyself and take a risk on myself
(10:02):
and retrain as a coach and takeit from them. So that's what I
did. And then, so that was 20years ago this year, and I took
a year out to qualify as an execcoach. And actually, at that
point, I had a lot of resentmenttowards the corporate world, and
thought, I just want to become alife just want to become a life
(10:22):
coach. I just want to help othercorporate prisoners, you know,
find their kind of sole purpose.
And I think, but at the heart ofit was this piece about, how do
you do work that you love, butalso be able to show up
personally in the way that youwant to? And I think I couldn't
work out at that point how howto do it, because I wasn't doing
(10:44):
it. And very quickly I realisedthat I did want to work in a
corporate environment, and I didwant to help other people to do
that. And so the last 20 yearsreally has been about doing
that, going into organisationsworking with high potentials, or
senior executives around how doyou live and work well and
follow your ambitions progressin your career, but also not
(11:07):
sacrifice your well being orsanity along the way?
Scott Allender (11:10):
You said coaching is your natural style.
What do you think's behind that?
What motivates that style foryou?
Nicky Lowe (11:16):
A huge curiosity. I think I am curious, and I'm I'm
naturally non judgmental, andlike, I kind of get that each of
us are different, and we thinkin different ways, and I'm just
curious about that. So how doyou see the world? How do you
walk in the world, and whatimpact is that having? So I
think it's that naturalcuriosity.
Jean Gomes (11:41):
And before we get into the kind of more current
stuff that you're doing, I'minterested to to get a sense of
in that journey. Because, yes, along time, a lot of experience,
a lot of you know, highs andlows in that can you give a
sense of, you know, some of theshifts that you went through as
an individual in that journey towhere you are today?
Nicky Lowe (12:01):
Yeah, great question. I think what I now
know looking back, but I didn'thave the language for at the
time, is in that corporate kindof over the last couple of years
of my corporate job, I wasburning out, but I didn't have
the language for that, or theknowledge of what, even what
that was at that point. And Ithink I didn't know what to do,
(12:22):
so at the time, I'd gone out andI'd hired an occupational
psychologist, I think actuallyhelp me figure out who I am and
how I apply that to my work. Andit wasn't particularly helpful.
I actually then went and hiredan executive coach, and that was
transformational. But what itmade me realise was I'd got
alignment burnout, or lack ofalignment burnout, and I
realised that actually I wasn'tworking in alignment with my
(12:45):
values and how important thatwas. So I think that start of my
journey taught me this piecearound what I would call core
alignment. And I almost use theanalogy of Pilates that you know
most people kind of now knowthat if we want to pick up a
heavy weight, it's not ourmuscles that do it, it's our
core stability. And if we've gotthat kind of core strength, we
(13:06):
can approach any weight and notinjure ourselves. And I think
that's what I started to learnat that point, is if you can
work in alignment, you can takeon the challenging roles. It's
not that you need to lean backfrom the challenges, but if you
can do it in alignment with yournatural preferences, and kind of
find your zone of genius withyour personality and preferences
and skills, and align that withyour values and your purpose.
(13:29):
Like that's really, reallypowerful. So I think that kind
of alignment, burnout ormisalignment, burnout started to
teach me that. And then Ithought, Oh, actually, if I just
put myself into the rightenvironment, I'll be I'll be
great. And so I, you know, I setup my own business, I built it
up to be really successful inthose first 10 years. Was
travelling the world, and then Igot married and decided to have
(13:51):
children, and I thought, I'm ina great position. Personally,
I'm in a great position.
Professionally, like this, thisis going to be great. And at
that point, I was actuallyworking with senior female
leaders and big organisations,and was helping a lot of women
manage that transition intomotherhood. So although I wasn't
a mother at that point, Ithought I was well positioned.
I'd got a good perspective onthis, and I look back and I
(14:13):
don't have to laugh or cry atthat naivety now, because I had
my first child, who's now nearly12. So 12 years ago, returned
back to work and literally burntout. So I got really, really ill
and didn't know what was goingon. Kept going to the doctors,
having blood tests, and likeyou, just a new mum. All new
(14:35):
mums are tired. And I was like,this is not tiredness. This is
another level of kind of it waslike every cell in my body had
not got energy, and I just keptbeing told I was an Emma and I
and I got to the point where Ithought I must have a serious
kind of illness that nobody candetect because I knew that I
wasn't well. And I ended upfinding somebody to go privately
(14:56):
and get tests, and I gotdiagnosed. Used with adrenal
fatigue. It's now not calledthat, but effectively, I burnt
my adrenal system out, and itwas a huge wake up call, because
it blindsided me. Did not see itcoming. And as a coach as well,
I did that whole I should knowbetter. You know, this shouldn't
be happening to me. So I gotfiercely curious at that point
(15:16):
about how the hell did thishappen? Because it was a two
year actual recovery to get myto get my physical wellness
back. So it was, it was kind ofquite a long journey of kind of
peeling back the layers of, howdid this happen? You know, to
begin with, I did that. I'msomebody that's got quite high
efficacy. I've got high personalpower. And I was like, obviously
I didn't eat enough kale and doenough yoga and do enough
meditation. And so I went downthat route of, kind of beating
(15:40):
myself up and looking at thepsycho biological side first,
but then started to see thepsychosocial aspects of being a
working mum and how that hadimpacted me, and how I tried to
still be the ideal worker. Of,like, approaching my work like
nothing else mattered, and thentried to show up as the ideal
mother of, you know, I'm, youknow, trying to turn up like I
(16:01):
didn't have work and I'd kind ofgot squeezed in that, those two
paradigms, so that then openedup my my kind of, my eyes and my
awareness and my curiosity tothat side. So a long kind of
answer to your to your question,John, but I think what I've I've
learned along the way is I'mprobably predisposed to burnout.
(16:24):
If I'm not careful, you canpretty much put me into any
environment. And I amconscientious, driven. I'm a
people pleaser, all of theselittle aspects that when you
combine them, um, if I'm notcareful and put the guard raids
in, guard rails in place, I canpush myself beyond my limits.
Scott Allender (16:44):
So knowing that, how do you what have you learned
in terms of how does that informthe work you do now? How does
that change how you approachyour work?
Nicky Lowe (16:52):
Yeah so I used to be very much in the intellectual
space, like I lived a little wayfrom my body. I was always in my
head, you know, willpower,intellect. I've become a lot
more connected to my body. Sothat intersection that you talk
about, you know how importantthat is, and I realised that
over the years how I'd becomedisconnected from my body. And I
(17:14):
think this is quite interestingin the topic we're talking
about, about how I think a lotof women potentially, have
become that way, becauseculturally and some of the
experiences that we have that wetend to have to disassociate to,
particularly if we're trying toshow up in a male environment,
and a lot of the culture isabout, how can we show up as a
(17:36):
man to succeed in a maledominated environment, we might
have to disconnect from Ourbodies to try and navigate in
that way. So what it's taught meis to be a hell of a lot more
connected to my body, my somaticawareness and practices I have
to build in to stay connected,because I still notice how how
disconnected I can be, andalmost to protect myself from
(17:58):
myself. Because, yeah, I havekind of daily, weekly, monthly
practices that are now just nonnegotiables for me that I have
to put in place otherwise I canfind myself in the burnout kind
of funnel.
Jean Gomes (18:12):
What out of all of those things, what's the kind of
non negotiable? What's the mostpowerful one for you?
Nicky Lowe (18:17):
Oh, there's a couple of things, one of which is one
you taught me, John, which isthat body scan of a morning. So
literally, before I get out ofbed, I will intentionally go
connect to your body before youdo anything else. Because even
getting out of bed, I can go tomy to do list, right? You gotta
do this like and I can power upand get into my adrenaline
system kind of straight away.
And then another practice I haveis I've got a seven minute non
(18:40):
negotiable, which is, I spendseven minutes every morning
stretching, and if that's theonly thing I can do for my body
each day, it's and I it's thekind of, if I can't find seven
minutes, then I almost don'tdeserve to have this body
functioning. So I have a sevenminute where I just stretch, and
a part of that is keeping meflexible and agile, but also it
(19:02):
is just intentionally going,there's a body here. Don't
forget me. You.
Jean Gomes (19:09):
I mean, I think you just alluded to this idea that
that we generally have becomedisconnected from our bodies,
and there's this massive sourceof information out there about
how to manage well being, how toyou know, everything, Tiktok,
YouTube, everywhere, televisionand so on. And without that
(19:31):
connection, it's just knowledge.
It's not never going to beactioned. But you alluded in our
in an early conversation we hadabout the global leadership well
being survey that you, you havebeen involved in, and I'm truly
interested to understand whatthe data shows there about the
the gap in gender well being.
Nicky Lowe (19:50):
Yeah, so the the global leadership well being
survey was created to reallyhelp leaders understand about
well being, and it looks atphysical. Um, psychological,
intellectual well being. Itlooks all the different sources
of well being. There's 121questions to kind of capture,
how do we live and work well soit measures it in both of our
(20:12):
personal and our professionaldomains. And there's about 5000
professionals and leaders thathave gone and completed this
survey, so we've got aboutaround about half a million data
sets that we've analysed andlooked at how gender shows up in
this and what we can see is thatthere is a significant and
(20:33):
growing gender wellbeing gap. Sowe know about the gender pay
gap, and we know that it'sclosing, but really at glacial
speeds, actually the well beinggaps increasing, which I find
really worrying and fascinating.
And what we know mostly is thatit's psychological well being
that's the biggest impact. Sowomen are experiencing more
stress, more anxiety, and thatis mostly cultural driven. You
(20:57):
know, women often are carryingthe double shift so they're
carrying most of the domesticload, even if they're senior
leaders, the data shows thatwomen still carry the majority
of the domestic load in theirhome, that they experience more
work life conflict than menoften, and particularly through
(21:17):
the pandemic, what we saw wasthat the social well being
realising that actually womenrely on social well being far
more than men to kind ofnavigate those challenges. So we
were more significantly impactedin lockdown because of that kind
of isolation piece aboutactually it takes a village and
how much we rely on our villagesso and what we also know is,
(21:40):
when we look across the decades,there's, there's a happiness
paradox in that each decadewhere, effectively, women are
getting, you know, more equalityin the workplace. We have kind
of more tools in the home tohelp us. You know, washing
machines, dishwashers, actually,women's happiness is declining,
(22:01):
and that, again, is fascinating,because, again, you would expect
it to be going the opposite way,but since the 70s, it's been
declining. And this piece aboutactually, because we can now
have it all, we should be doingit all, but we're trying to do
it on our own, and we're holdingourselves to really, really high
standards about kind of havingthe perfect home, having the
(22:23):
perfect body, but also showingup and having this phenomenal
career and that squeeze ofactually, conditions in society
haven't really caught up withthe opportunities that we now
have, and how do we navigatethat in a way that supports us
so that that's the piece where Iam really curious about, and
really do a lot of my work withfemale leaders, about, actually,
(22:46):
if we are going to perform atthese senior levels, what do we
need around us, and what are theconditions that need to be in
place that we're notexperiencing the kind of
psychological well being declineand the happiness like I I
realised that I had what I wouldcall toxic success back in my
career. On the outside it lookedgreat, but on the inside it was
(23:07):
it was shallow, it was hollow,and actually it was quite
distressing for me. So how do wehelp people find that sweet
success where it's sustainable,it feels good as well as kind of
looks good on paper.
Jean Gomes (23:20):
Is there any difference in the generations in
this survey,
Nicky Lowe (23:25):
it's an interesting it's an interesting question
because I think actually, wehaven't got a wide enough
distribution of the generations,so I think there's a piece of
research there about lookingacross the five generations to
see that. But what we do knowfrom things like McKinsey women
in the workplace report is thatmore of the the younger
generations that are comingthrough are going, I don't want
(23:46):
to pay the cost of what we'reseeing our senior female leaders
pay. I'm not. I don't want to gothere. So again, the data shows
that every female that's makingit to a senior leadership level
two are deciding to step backbecause they're not willing to
pay the cost, or it's, it'staking too much cost on them. So
again, that's where we're like,actually, we're never gonna, you
know, we might take one stepforward, two step back this. We
(24:09):
really need to be payingattention to this, because it's,
it's, the long term impact of itis quite worrying. You
Jean Gomes (24:23):
when we talked a few weeks ago, Nicky, we talked
about the four M's that we needto surface, to normalise and to
solve for in transforming,forming the future of female
leadership. Can we brieflyoutline the four M's and what
the big challenges are that weneed to solve across each Yeah?
So
Nicky Lowe (24:42):
when we look at this, there's a really
interesting debate out thereabout leadership development,
of, should there be femaleleadership development, or is it
just leadership development,like, it's not about fixing the
women? Is it about fixing thesystems? There's this really
interesting debate that goes on.
And actually we. Don't want tokind of go women need different
leadership because they'rebroken in some way. But we do
(25:03):
need to pay attention toactually, some of the
psychosocial and psychobiological aspects are
different. And one of thoseaspects is this thing that we
talked about called the FourM's. And this comes from the
work of a lady called Joyburnford, from encompassing
quality. And she talks about,actually, for women, they will
experience at least two, if notall, of these four M's, which is
(25:26):
month list, which is themenstrual cycle, it's
miscarriage, motherhood and themenopause. Now all women will
have to navigate, in some way,shape or form, their menstrual
cycle and the menopause, andthey may choose to or may not be
able to have children, sothere's that in the mix along
(25:46):
the way, but each of those has asignificant impact on our well
being. And as I mentionedearlier, that actually a lot of
women, we've detached from ourbodies, we've disassociated.
It's interesting because I wasrunning a female leader retreat,
actually, with our good friendJames Glover a little while ago,
and just before Christmas, andwe had these senior female
(26:08):
leaders, and we were talkingabout, what's their experience
of being a female leader intheir industry? And they all
kind of said, well, we don'twant to be just treated
differently to men. We, youknow, we have a similar
experience. And talked aboutsome factors that were more kind
of psychosocial around theculture. And then I asked them
the question, and how does yourmenstrual cycle or the menopause
(26:29):
impact this? And they were like,dumbstruck, like, literally took
a breath and went, I've neverconsidered that. And when we
dived a little bit deeper, oneof them responded by but I don't
want that be it to be an excuseabout why I can't be a leader. I
don't want to be seen as weaker.
(26:49):
I don't want it to get in theway. And I could really relate
to that about and that's thatdisassociation piece about, yes,
it's there, but it's anannoyance. It's an
inconvenience. I've got to kindof I've got to detach from it,
because I don't want it to holdme back or be perceived as a
potential weakness. And so a lotof women, I believe, are more
disconnected from their bodiesbecause of that so and that we
(27:12):
know has an impact on their wellbeing and also their
performance. So for a lot ofwomen, the menstrual cycle is
almost about what sanitaryproducts do I need, and how does
it affect my conception? Andthat's really the only attention
that we'll ever pay to it. It'sseen as more of an
inconvenience, and what I'vecome to learn is actually the
(27:33):
more that we can tap into thepower of our cycle, the more
powerful we can be. So womencycle, and this is a kind of
it's, it's very dumbed downversion of something I suppose
that's a lot. Got a lot moreintricacies to it. But just to
keep it at a high level, womencycle on a 28 days. Men cycle
over 24 hours. So you couldthink women are more like the
(27:54):
moon, men are more like the sun.
So it's more easy for a man toshow up consistently. And I've
got clients. I've got a woman Iwas coaching only last week, and
she was frustrated that she wasbeing inconsistent in her words.
Some days she could show up andwas refocused. Some days she
could show up and do theseclient calls and was like
nailing it, and then other daysshe didn't want to do that, she
(28:15):
didn't want to make clientcalls, and she was beating
herself up for beinginconsistent. And I just kind of
use the lens of looking throughher cycle. And again, she'd
never, ever done this. Becausethere, if you imagine the female
cycle is almost like thethroughout those 28 days you go
through almost the seasons of ayear. So you'll be in your
(28:36):
spring, summer, autumn andwinter, and each of those phases
of your cycle, you bringdifferent strengths. And what
was happening for her was thatshe was expecting herself to
show up on this 24 hour cycleand just be able to be
consistent in that way, when shecould tap into so in our summer,
we are great for like, customerfacing engagement like that.
(28:58):
Would be a great time for me tobe doing a podcast, public
speaking. You know, that type ofcustomer interaction in our
winter, we're much better atinterception, reflection, just
going inward and listen to inour intuition and just knowing
that a it stops you beatingyourself up for not being this
(29:19):
kind of robot that can just showup con, you know, consistently.
In that way, it also allows youto harness the power of where
your cycle's at and just connectto your body. So, for example,
my personal trainer now, I'veeducated him on my cycle at
different points in my cycle, wedo different training regime,
and there'll be times when I'mreally good at working out, and
(29:40):
there's going to be times whenI'm better at working in both
need movement, but there'sdifferent types of movement, and
there's a lot of research comingout about this now. And so the
more that we can tap into that,I think the more powerful we can
be in terms of our own wellbeing and our performance.
Jean Gomes (29:59):
I love the. Love any kind of way of thinking about
things that gives people agreater sense of control over
what's happening. What can we?
Can we flip it for a second inthis conversation? Just think
about, you know, what's in itfor the man in this
relationship, either you know,partner, colleague, friend, how
do, how do we make it? You know,not just about what I have to do
as a woman to kind of takecontrol of this, yeah, and
Nicky Lowe (30:24):
I think for men, just even listening to this,
just hopefully, just having thatawareness may spark some kind of
interest and curiosity. I, I wasalways taught growing up that
treat people how you like to betreated, and that's a really
good thing. And I, you know,always held on to that as a
value until I learnt more abouthuman behaviour, and I realised
actually, if I treat you how ilike treated, I'm assuming
(30:45):
you're like me. So I think forany man listening, it's just not
assuming that you experience theworld in the same way as anybody
you know, male, female orwhatever you know, just that
getting curious about whatsomebody else's experience is,
knowing that actually peoplemight experience the world in a
different way. And I think, youknow, if you take it as somebody
(31:06):
that's a partner, justrecognising that, oh, you know,
I think men can often see womenas this well, like you're just,
one day you're this, and one dayyou're that, and just knowing
that that's psycho biologically,that's something that happens
for for us, and it's, you know,it's part of our power and
probably our confusion that wemight create if you were
somebody's partner, and justasking, because, as my
(31:30):
experience, my cycle were verydifferent to another woman's
cycle. So just getting curiousand being compassionate, you
know, in that curiosity, and Ithink as leaders again,
recognising that there's somehuge super powers, and if you
can give be inclusive in justagain, recognising, and this
(31:50):
isn't just for women, becausethe more we know, the more human
workplaces are, the more itbenefits everybody. So just
again, recognising that peopleare having different
experiences. How can weunderstand that and leverage it
for performance and well being?
Scott Allender (32:10):
It seems there's so much taboo around a topic
like this that it's preventingthe education and that sort of
knowledge, right? I'm learningfrom you right now, but you
know, in other environments thatwould feel like a taboo subject.
So how do we break through in anappropriate way, kind of some of
these taboos? It's
Nicky Lowe (32:27):
a really great question. And I was saying to to
John, I've got a post that I'vebeen sitting on, literally and
wondering whether to post aboutmy own cycle and putting it out
on kind of LinkedIn and justlike, Oh, that feels really kind
of courageous to do it, and it'slike, oh, isn't that
interesting? You know, justthat, because it is such a
taboo, and I think for women,there's probably a lot of shame
(32:48):
attached to it, and that pieceof, I don't want to be perceived
as different, and we're alreadytrying to struggle in a kind of,
you know, patriarchal world, youknow, does it add another kind
of nuance to that? But I thinkit comes back to all the stuff
that we know about greatleadership, about how do we
create psychologically safeenvironments where people can
show up as their full selves andhave the kind of conversations
(33:10):
that we know are going tosupport us to do our best work
and have the best impact. So Ithink if we think about it
generally like that, I think themore that we can as leaders,
role model that and show itourselves and our full humanness
and be vulnerable. I think ithelps to shift that forward. And
I think it takes people, youknow, and I say this, it takes
(33:33):
people, and it's making me go. Ijust need to share this post and
be willing to take that risk, togo. Actually, if we start
talking about it. How can westart to shift the conversation
in a helpful way, in anappropriate way? You know, not
over sharing, but sharing enoughthat kind of just raises
awareness.
Jean Gomes (33:53):
Yeah, I mean, I'm I think this is a brilliant
conversation. I think, you know,what gives me hope around this
is that there has been progressin and rapidly picking up across
lots of different domains.
There's probably a whole bunchof, you know, kind of huge,
historical, political,religious, all sorts of things
that are kind of holding thisback on so many different
(34:15):
levels. And it's easier not totalk about because of that.
Yeah, but you know when we whenwe think about the topic of
menopause, that's recentlybecome more discussed topic in
any healthy way. Where do youfeel we're on the journey to
normalising and positivelyadapting around that one? Yeah,
Nicky Lowe (34:31):
I think, you know, the data that we're now getting
is really supporting this. So Ithink that the stats for just
the UK alone is there are around900,000 women that are have set
back from the workforce becauseof their menopause, either
because of symptoms or becauseof the lack of support. And so
(34:53):
it's significant numbers, and Ithink companies are now
recognising that. And I thinkfor me, there's this piece.
About, actually, when we'rehitting that as an age, as
women, we've got all thiswisdom, all this experience
that's so valuable, that's kindof getting lost. And there's a
whole again, cultural piecearound, you know, we don't
honour women ageing as much aswe honour men ageing. So there's
(35:15):
this whole kind of, there'slayers to this, as you've said,
cultural, religious, political,all of that piece. But I think
now we're getting more data andthe lights being shone on it. I
think what we're seeing is thatorganisations recognising, if
we're getting these women thatget into leadership positions in
that kind of midlife, andthey're bringing all that
expertise and wisdom, and we'reand we're losing it, there's
(35:37):
like a massive leak in theleadership pipeline for females.
How do we start to address it?
So the conversations that aregoing on and the organisations
that are doing awarenessraising, I think it's fantastic.
I think again, the fact thatwe're creating the environments
where we're having thoseconversations about actually,
what is it that we need? What isthe support, whether it be the
healthcare support, whether itbe just kind of the human
(36:00):
conversations that say, what doyou need right now, I think it's
interesting because I talk aboutAI is my perimenopause partner.
Like, AI is brilliant for mewhen I'm in my brain fog and I
just need, kind of help me, helpme launch my thoughts. Like, I
think AI is going to bephenomenal for that. And I was
only having a conversation withsome uni, old uni friends on
(36:21):
WhatsApp, and we were all sayingthat. But like, actually, this
midlife and AI colliding ispretty good. We can use this
well. So I think it definitelyis something that needs to be
addressed, because we will, wewill see a real negative impact
over time, if we don't, and youknow, 50% of the population will
(36:43):
go through it so and the factthat organisations are
recognising that, I think, isgreat. But again, it comes down
to, are we creating theenvironments where we can have
the kind of conversations, wherewe can address it in a safe and
appropriate way and get theperformance impact that we're
all looking for.
Jean Gomes (37:03):
I'm guessing the kind of the the another driver
around that will be the ageingworkforce. Absolutely, the
population is changingdramatically from a composition
perspective, so become somethingthat there's going to be more
opportunity around as much.
Yeah, and that
Nicky Lowe (37:21):
kind of loops back to one of the other ends, which
is around the motherhood piece,because we're still seeing a
huge motherhood penalty in theworkplace. We the statistics
show that 60% of the gender paygap is down to the to the
motherhood penalty. We're seeinghuge maternal bias still in the
workplace. And actually whatit's meaning is more women when
(37:43):
they become mums feel that theonly option is to to to kind of
downgrade their career or orlean out completely, or the
gender next generations are kindof going, I'm not going to have
children because I can't, Ican't see how I can make this
all work. So when you look atwe've got an ageing workforce
and we've got a lowering birthrate, it's, you know, that's, it
(38:03):
becomes a real, really difficultkind of societal thing for us to
navigate, because economicallyand just, are there going to be
enough to people to support thethe the ageing population? So,
you know, from a purely selfishperspective, we need to address
kind of motherhood in theworkplace and parenthood more
generally, because it's still ahuge issue.
Scott Allender (38:29):
The third M you mentioned is an incredibly
painful one for many, which ismiscarriage. How should we be
talking about what do we need tobe discussing in this topic?
Yeah,
Nicky Lowe (38:41):
I think it's another real taboo subject. So the
statistics show that that one infive pregnancies ends in
miscarriage, but what we wethink is actually that number is
far higher, but often amiscarriage happens before
there's kind of a knownpregnancy. So there's a really
high percentage that mightnavigate this at any point
(39:03):
myself, I actually had recurrentmiscarriage. So I had a my
eldest is 12, and I then hadrecurrent miscarriages, and was
told that I'd got secondaryinfertility, that I couldn't
have another child. And luckily,I went on to have another child.
I've got a six year old, but andwhen I started talking about it,
realising how many of my friendsand how many other women had
(39:25):
experienced miscarriage, andagain, it's a very unique it's a
very unique experience,depending on you know, just your
where you are, who you are,personally, where that
miscarriage might happen in a ina in a Pregnancy, but just
knowing that that is happeningto potentially a significant
amount of women and they again,how are we going to support
(39:49):
that? Because if it's happening,whether we know it or not, it's
having an impact, whether weknow it or not, and just
somebody feels safe to sharethat and then for ask what they
need to get to. Through that andfeel supported, or are they
going through it and silentlysuffering and and that, from a
human perspective, is not right,but also from an organisational
(40:11):
performance, will be having animpact. But how are we creating
an environment where we can, wecan raise those subjects and
just let people know thatthey're that they feel safe to
voice it and feel supported. Alot of organisations are putting
in policies around baby loss,around kind of miscarriage,
around those kind of areas tosay, look, there's policies in
(40:32):
place that you are supported.
You can take time off, you canget the support you need, and
we're here to support you. Sojust recognising that that will
be an issue. If you employwomen, yeah, the woman will be
going through but even if youdon't, you know the the Father
will be going through it andhaving their own experience as
well.
Sara Deschamps (40:57):
If the conversations we've been having
on The Evolving Leader havehelped you in any way. Please
share this episode with yournetwork, friends and family.
Thank you for listening. Nowlet's get back to the
conversation.
Jean Gomes (41:09):
So on to motherhood.
The counterpoint to to this,which is the joy of all of that,
but it also brings a whole bunchof new realities, and there has
been some progress and in thisalso some weird things, you
know, like, but we won't mentionthe name of the investment bank,
but paying, you know, highpotential women to freeze their
eggs so that they don't theydon't leave the workplace.
(41:32):
What's your state of the nationon on motherhood and work?
Nicky Lowe (41:39):
The state, for me is that it's promising and it looks
optimistic, but we're still inpretty dire, kind of archaic
situations still. So what weknow from the data of people
like pregnant and Scrooge the UKcharity have done some massive
kind of work in this area, that,as I said, you know, 60% of the
(42:01):
pay gap is down to themotherhood penalty. So when a
woman reaches child bearing age,even if she's not yet had
children, she often will beimpacted by this. So we know
that if somebody gets engaged,for example, it will be assumed
that they'll get married andhave children, and therefore
might not be given promotionalopportunities, that once
somebody becomes a mum, they'redeemed as less competent, less
(42:23):
capable and less committed. Sotherefore they are passed over
for promotion, or they arenegatively assessed in their
performance reviews. There's allthis unconscious bias that
exists that people might noteven be aware of even exists in
their own kind of mindset. Butfrom my own experience and
(42:43):
working with 1000s of women inthis area, is that it is a it is
what I would term a verticaldevelopment transition. So, you
know, we do have thesehorizontal development
transitions where we gain skillsor we get promoted sidewards,
but kind of when we know that wehave a promotion, it's seen as a
(43:03):
vertical development where wemight be going from an
individual contributor to amanager, or a manager to a kind
of functional leader. It'srecognised that there's a change
in values, beliefs, identity,and that support needs to be put
in place to enable that smoothtransition and really support
that person. And I very much seethe transition into motherhood
and parenthood in that way. Youknow, values often shift, our
(43:26):
identity shifts, and for somepeople, that is a fairly smooth
transition. But for a lot ofpeople, it's not, particularly
when the environment is notdeemed to be supportive,
particularly if they've builttheir career up to that point on
strategies of what I would callthe ideal worker. You know, I
just work all the hours it takesto get the job done, and kind of
(43:46):
nothing distracts me from it,and then all of a sudden they're
like, oh, that's either nolonger what I want to do, or
it's no longer sustainable.
It's, yeah, I'm paying a cost,or my family's paying a cost.
And how do we make thattransition to work in a
different way that supports us,still performing at work, but
also living well if we've, ifwe've sacrificed that part to
have our success. And I thinkunless people are really
(44:10):
supported through thattransition, it's incredibly
hard. And I see the mostly womenreally, really suffering in that
transition, either paying thepersonal well being cost of it
or fighting an uphill battle tohave the authority and
credibility that they once hadin the workplace and been able
(44:30):
to progress their careereffectively. Where are
Scott Allender (44:36):
you seeing examples of practices and
organisations that are doingthis really well and aren't
unintentionally, but, you know,potentially furthering
polarisation and sort ofcreating more taboos in the in
the fact that they're trying totake this on in a healthy way.
Where are you seeing successes,the
Nicky Lowe (44:55):
great successes around organisations that are
putting in equal parentingpolicy? So they're not kind of
going, Oh, as a mother, you willget all this maternity leave,
but as a father, you'll get twoweeks. The progressive
organisations are going, right,as a parent, we are empowering
you to choose how you do that asa family and that as a father,
(45:17):
you have the same rights as amother. And you know,
organisations have taken hugerisks and leaps and investment
on this, but they're absolutelypaying off. I mean, people like
John Lewis partnership in the UKare doing phenomenal work around
this. So those equal parentingpolicies are really important.
But alongside that, policiesalone are not are not enough.
(45:37):
It's the education of leadersand line managers, because what
we know is men that have askedfor shared parentally, for
example, experience thefatherhood forfeit of they're
then deemed as well you're notcommitted to your career. So
there's an education around thebias that still exists. So kind
of I run a programme calledparenthood management matters
(46:00):
about how do you manage parentsin the workplace effectively,
and remove those unconsciousbias around you know, if you've
got somebody that's a singleparent, the support you they
need is slightly different,versus also solo parents. That
might not be kind of coparenting. They are literally
the sole parent. You know thatthe support and resources they
(46:24):
need are different, and everyfamily system is different. So
just that, again, that curiosityand compassion to go, you're a
human. You have a life outsidework. I don't expect you to
leave it at the door. The morepeople that can parent out loud,
I think is really important asleaders, to go actually, I'm
going to go and do the schoolpickup today and not kind of
(46:45):
feel that you've got to kind ofmove side with that of a meeting
and hope nobody notices for fearthat you're going to be judged
for not being committed. Sothose are the things that we're
seeing done really well aroundequal parenting policies, the
education and unconscious biastraining of leaders and managers
and just that more humanapproach to how do we let people
(47:06):
show up as their full selves?
Scott Allender (47:08):
Let's build on that a little bit, because we
have listeners listening rightnow who may not have direct
influence over policy changes.
So for somebody listening whosays, I want to make changes on
my own team, I want to influencethese kinds of things, but I'm
not in charge in that way. WhatWhat are, what's some advice you
have for those leaders? Well,
Nicky Lowe (47:28):
I think there's, there's a, like a micro level
around, you know, as a leader,how do I create the culture
within my micro team that we canhave those conversations? You
know, I know people that work inorganisations, organisations
that might not be supportive,but they've created their own
own like micro climate, wherethey're like, actually, this is
how I want to lead and show youthat I'm a human and I'm going
(47:50):
to respect you and give you theautonomy to get the work done.
How you do it is up to you andhow you choose to use your hours
to do that. I'll measure youroutput and the impact you have.
I'm not going to measure thehours you'll hear, and that
might go counter to the cultureof the organisation, but they've
created those microenvironments. But even if
they're not a leader, just tokind of start to share, if it
(48:10):
feels safe to kind of go, thisis, this is how my life works.
You know, thinking of one of myclients, she she took the leap
of she was a female in a verymale dominated industry. So she
was one of the few onlys. Soonly females was one of the few
only kind of parents, and one ofthe few kind of only solo
(48:32):
parents. And she started to justdrip feed and just kind of go,
just to let you know, like I, Idon't have any flexibility in
that way, and her, her, herleader, was trying to be really
helpful in putting policies inplace, but he didn't understand
the lived experience of being asolo parent, so she just started
to kind of slowly and gentlyeducate him not to say, you
(48:53):
know, I deserve and I need, butjust let you know this is the
kind of stuff I'm having tonavigate, and this is why it
Sometimes might be seen as alittle bit more difficult. I
think that can work really well.
Other things that I'm seeingdone really well is where people
are setting up kind of employeeresource groups to start these
conversations going. So it mightbe around kind of working
(49:13):
parents, or working parents andcarers, or, you know, it can be
around, you know, workingparents with neurodivergent
children, and I've seen kind ofthese little pockets of Employee
Resource Groups pop up, whereyou're finding your tribe.
You're creating safeenvironments where you're kind
of normalising the sharedexperience. That can work
(49:34):
incredibly well to then makemore of a macro impact, but
you're kind of creating your ownkind of micro initiatives that
support it.
Jean Gomes (49:44):
I think, you know, one of the intergenerational
challenges is always to try andit's not to kind of go well,
this generation is different.
It's also to recognise thisgeneration is exactly the same,
but in different contexts. Yeah,a lot of the time, sure, there
are differences, but. That's thebit we as leaders, we often
forget. And I think bringing upchildren, particularly is such a
traumatic experience in terms ofsleep deprivation and new stuff
(50:07):
and conflicting commitments andso on, that it's almost as if
you just desperately want toforget it. Yeah. And so when,
when you, you know your yourkids have left the house and so
on, there's a part of you that'ssort of free again, and you see
other people going through it,and you're sort of going, Well,
(50:29):
wait and see what's really goingto be like, and so on. So I
think there's, there's probablyan element here of remembering
and sort of tuning back intothat to be a great leader in
this. Does that strike you asbeing, you know, something that
we need to kind of,
Nicky Lowe (50:45):
yeah, and I think that's a really, really
interesting point, because Ithink it can both serve us, but
be unhelpful in that.
Recognising our own humanness, Ithink, is so important in that.
But what as what we see play outa lot, actually, with female
leaders. So often the thematernal bias and the motherhood
(51:06):
penalty that women experience,the data shows that it's often
more from other female leaderswith this thing of I suffered.
So why should you have it easierforward? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And,
you know, you see thatpotentially a lot. I've heard a
lot of stories from the legalprofession about I had to, you
(51:26):
know, hire a Nami. Never see mychildren. Why should you be able
to see your children and workfrom home and work flexibly? And
it's almost like I've paid thecost, and you you have to as
well. And so I think thatbringing your own experience to
it can be helpful, but can alsobe unhelpful. And just knowing
that and paying attention to it,I think is really, you know, is
(51:49):
really important. That's
Jean Gomes (51:52):
really useful to kind of bring back that kind of
sacrifice mindset point, what'snext for you? What? What's the
next kind of challenge thatyou're leaning into? At the
moment,
Nicky Lowe (52:04):
I'm doing a lot around, as I said, female kind
of leadership. And for me it's,I'm developing a female
leadership developmentprogrammes, but that really,
really are dial down intoevidence based that make a real
life difference. Because I thinkthere's a lot of great
programmes out there, but Ithink there's still a long way
(52:25):
that we can go that's bringingin the changes in the workplace,
the changes in what we'relearning from neuroscience, from
our psycho biology, from kind ofall the menopause data and all
of the information that we'vegot to create something really,
really impactful. So I'mcurrently in the process of
designing and working andcollaborating around that
Scott Allender (52:47):
wonderful how can people get in contact with
you, Nicky, so
Nicky Lowe (52:51):
I'm on LinkedIn.
Nicky Lowe, on LinkedIn. So n,i, c, k, y, l, O, W, E, Nicky
Lowe, my business is illuminate.
So, l, u, M, I, N, A, T,illuminate. Hyphen, group.co.uk,
and you can find kind of all theinformation over there.
Jean Gomes (53:09):
Brilliant. Well, we'll put that in the show notes
so that people can quickly gethold of you. I found this
incredibly illuminating, andit's made me think in lots of
different directions. So thankyou, and I'm sure people
listening now, yeah, but we'llreally appreciate the
contribution you making intothis, this conversation. Thank
you. Well,
Nicky Lowe (53:29):
thank you for inviting me, and it's been a
pleasure.
Scott Allender (53:33):
All right, folks, until next time, remember
the world is evolving. Are you?
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