March 20, 2025 • 50 mins
In this bonus episode of The Evolving Leader podcast, host Scott Allender talks to Enneagram Practitioner, Leadership Consultant, and Author Stephanie Barron Hall. During the episode, Stephanie explains what the Enneagram is, how people new to the Enneagram might approach it and how it can be applied to teams in the workplace.
Stephanie is the author of 'Enneagram In Real Life - Find Your Type and Take Steps Toward Growth'
Further reading from Stephanie Barron Hall:
Get your copy of Enneagram in Real Life https://www.ninetypes.co/enneagram-in-real-life
Find Your Enneagram Type: https://www.ninetypes.co/find-your-enneagram-type
Listen to the Enneagram in Real Life Podcast: https://www.enneagramirl.com/
Learn more about team sessions: https://www.ninetypes.co/
Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)
The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)
Social:
Instagram @evolvingleader
LinkedIn The Evolving Leader Podcast
Twitter @Evolving_Leader
YouTube @evolvingleader
Bluesky @evolvingleader.bsky.social
The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Allender (00:22):
Hi, folks, welcome to The Evolving Leader
the show born from the beliefthat we need deeper, more
accountable and more humanleadership to confront the
world's biggest challenges. I'mScott Allender, and if you're
new to the show, welcome. We'rereally appreciate that you're
here. And if you're a regularlistener, thank you. We are so
grateful for your continuedsupport. And if you're a regular
listener, then you'll know thatpart of our aim in helping all
(00:46):
of us to create deeperaccountability and more human
leadership is found throughhelping us all to build a more
radical self awareness and atruer, more empathetic
understanding of others. How wemake sense of ourselves and the
world around us is a cornerstoneof our leadership, both for good
or for bad. And long time,listeners of the show will know
(01:06):
that an approach that I like totake for better understanding
myself and other people isthrough the Enneagram. Back in
season one, we had best sellingEnneagram author Ian Morgan Cron
on the show, and then when mybook, The Enneagram of emotional
intelligence came out two yearsago. We devoted a whole episode
to that. So if you're anEnneagram curious human, then
you're in the right place. Ifyou're not, then please don't
(01:29):
turn off the dial. Stay open andstay with us. Lean In, because I
think you're going to get somereally keen insights today from
wherever you are on your selfawareness journey. Because today
we are joined by Enneagram,teacher, coach, speaker,
Stephanie Barron Hall. Stephaniedraws from her education in
(01:50):
psychology and post graduatework in organisational
communications to create aunique and accessible approach
to working with Enneagram inorganisations, and she's just
released a book that I'vedescribed as the new go to book
on the Enneagram, and I stand bythat assertions. It's called the
Enneagram in real life, and shehosts a podcast by the same
(02:11):
name, and she also has like akajillion followers on her
instagram at nine types coSteph, welcome to The Evolving
Leader.
Stephanie Barron Hall (02:20):
Thanks so much for having me.
Scott Allender (02:22):
How are you feeling today?
Stephanie Barron Hall (02:24):
Good, yeah, yeah,
Scott Allender (02:26):
you just got over an illness, but you're
feeling good,
Stephanie Barron Hall (02:28):
yeah. And I, uh, rushed here because
morning rush hour traffic. I waslike, hustling in, you know,
trying to make it on time. So
Scott Allender (02:38):
wow, thanks for being here, I'm gonna jump into
help our audience get to knowyou a little bit better. Say
we're at a dinner party and andyour answer might help me when I
get this question and somebodycomes up to you and says, So I
hear you've written a book aboutwhat at the Enneagram, what is
this thing you've done? What doyou tell them? How do you get
(03:01):
into that conversation?
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:03):
Um, first of all, I I'm like, yes, the
Enneagram. Yeah, because no, nocoffee enemas involved here,
though, I always like to say theEnneagram is a motivation based
personality framework orientedaround nine core types. And what
(03:24):
I really like about it is thatit's very growth oriented, so it
really helps us to understandnot only where we are, but kind
of where we're going and wherewe've been. And so that's kind
of my elevator pitch, if youwill.
Scott Allender (03:37):
Yeah. How did you discover it?
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:40):
Actually, so I've always been interested
in personality, everything, butthe Enneagram in particular. My
husband heard about on apodcast, and he was like, Oh,
you would probably like this.
And he handed me his readyresults. So for our listeners,
the ready is the Rizzo HudsonEnneagram Type Indicator, and it
is a pretty gold standardassessment that people have used
(04:04):
for a very long time, and it'sabout $12 so he handed me the
results from that, and I waslike, cool, you know, great. I'm
gonna, like, set that aside fornow. Didn't really listen. And
then a few months later, myolder sister was like, you have
to take the Enneagram. So I waslike, Oh, fine, because you have
(04:26):
to do what older sisters say.
And so I took it, and I saw theachiever pop up on the screen.
And I was like, Yes, I won. Andvery quickly I started reading
more about what that actuallymeant, and I was like, oh, no, I
(04:48):
do not like this. And it kind oftook me on this whole journey.
Scott Allender (04:53):
What didn't you like? Well, two
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:56):
things that kind of popped out right
away. One was that I. The wholechameleon esque aspect of the
type three, which is sometimescalled the achiever, the part
about moving and shifting, howyou show up depending on who
you're with. And it wassomething that I had recently
started noticing about myselfand I didn't like, but I also
(05:18):
thought people can't tell andreading about it on the page, I
was like, Oh my gosh, people cansee me. And that was really
challenging, like feeling likepeople can see this thing that
I'm doing and that I wasn't evenaware that I was doing. And so I
(05:40):
was kind of mortified by that,and then the second piece was
that I was out of touch with myemotions. And my whole life, I
had been told, You're sosensitive, You're too sensitive.
So I didn't think that I was outof touch with my emotions, but
very quickly I startedrecognising, oh no, I totally
(06:02):
am. And being sensitive is notthe same as being able to like,
access and process emotionsappropriately. So those kind of
stood out to me, and that tookme on this whole path.
Scott Allender (06:17):
So I want to talk more about that path,
because I'm really curious howthis journey has changed. You
both the difficult realitiesthat you've started to describe,
as well as the sort of thingsthat are, hopefully are a little
bit sunnier, as well as part ofthe whole comprehensive journey.
But before we do that, becausethis is not a official Enneagram
podcast, right? So maybe it'd begood if we could do a whistle
(06:40):
stop tour. You mentioned it's amotivation based system. I've
talked to talked about this abit on the show before, but I'd
love to just kind of have you doa master class in like a minute
of kind of like the nine types.
What do they mean? Why should wecare? Anything you want to share
there? Yeah. So
Stephanie Barron Hall (06:58):
I'll start um, with why we should
care. And I think that this partis really important. I think a
lot of us are looking for someunderstanding of who we are,
some sense of self awareness. Ithink especially people who
listen to this podcast, arelooking for that. And then the
other kind of group that I seelooking for that are the people
(07:20):
that I work with. I work withactually a lot of like for
Fortune 500 companies, and I seea lot of leaders who are looking
for some reason or some way todo things differently, because
they're like, it's just notclicking with people how I'm
going about this. And so that'swhy I like the Enneagram,
(07:40):
because part of the piece aboutbeing motivation based is if you
learn it at work, you can use itat home, too, and vice versa. So
it's not like something likedisc, which is a great tool, but
it's more situational, so thecontext matters a lot more. It's
just it has, like the underlyingmotivation, and you can kind of
(08:02):
always track with that. So Iknow this is kind of weird, but
in Enneagram circles, we like tostart with type eight. So
Scott Allender (08:16):
I know why we do that. Why do we do that stuff?
Yeah, so
Stephanie Barron Hall (08:20):
the Enneagram is full of all these
different complexities. So itseems like, oh, just nine
numbers. How hard could that be?
But actually, there's a lot moreto it, and one of the kind of
baseline ways we look at thetypes is through the lens of
intelligence centres, meaning weall have different centres of
intelligence where we have like,kind of this innate attention
and and focus. And so we havethree types, and all of them
(08:45):
have, like, an aversive emotionthat is underpinning them. So
people always ask, why are theemotions negative? And it's
like, well, it's something thatwe're all trying to escape in
some, some sort of way. So withthe exception of type eight, but
I'll come back to that. So thebody types are eight, nine and
(09:07):
one, and they have underlyinganger that they want to kind of
issue. Eights are really okaywith it. They feel fine about
it. But the other two types,nine and one, want to suppress
it or repress it, just find away to not be angry. Two, three
and four have an underlyingsadness, and these are the heart
types, and they are reallyfocused more on image and
(09:29):
identity and those sorts ofquestions, like, who am I? Is
the big question for the hearttypes. And then five, six and
seven are the head types, or themind types, and they're focused
on stability and safety, andthey have an underlying fear,
and so they're using analysisand strategy to make sure that
they don't feel afraid.
Scott Allender (09:50):
And we overuse one of those centres, right? So
we talk a lot of this show, soI'm pause before we go into the
nine types, because we talk alot on the show about one of the
ways. We build self awareness tosee and solve our greatest
challenges is to pay moreattention to what's happening in
our body, to pay more attentionto what our emotions are telling
us why they're constructed inthe first place, and what
information they're giving us,and then to integrate the sort
(10:14):
of prefrontal cortex and thelogic and the rationale, and
it's all three of those thingsworking in harmony that actually
give us so much insights andeven speak into our well being
and how we like experience ourlives personally as well. So in
those sort of three centres as astarting place, if you heard
Steph describe them at that highlevel, you know, kind of think
(10:35):
about which one of those maybeyou sit in as a natural place,
because we doesn't mean that weare skilled in using that all
the time, right? It's like weprefer that centre. We try to
operate life from that centre,but sometimes we overuse that
centre till it becomesineffective. What would you say
about that?
Stephanie Barron Hall (10:55):
Yeah, I think that's very true. Is that
we're always overusing one ofthem, and that that's when it
becomes dysfunctional. And sothe whole idea of the Enneagram
is not to change your type orchange your centre or any of
that. It's to bring them allinto balance. And so sometimes
what I see is that people havethese really strong judgments
(11:17):
about their type or their centreor whatever. And you know, it's
because they're like, oh, that'sjust gross. Like, I see that all
the time, and I hate it, youknow? And it's useful, I think,
for us to observe that, but alsoto recognise it's just about
(11:37):
balance. It's not about gettingrid of that.
Scott Allender (11:42):
I so those are three centres. Now let's go
ahead and do the sort of ninesort of ways that people are
responding,
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:52):
sure, so eights are motivated by this.
Need to be against. And it's notagainst to be contrarian. It's
against to say, like, I amtough, I'm strong. You can't
overtake me, you can't overpowerme. And they're avoiding any
semblance of vulnerability orweakness. And so they really
have this tough exterior. Now,if you know an eight they're not
(12:15):
just jerks all the time. Theyhave a lot of kindness, and you
know these other qualitiesbeneath the surface, but they
lead with that toughdecisiveness and seem to not
really care much about whatother people think. And so
they're very driven and dynamicpeople. Then we have nines who
are motivated by the need to beat peace internally and
(12:37):
externally. And this is reallyabout creating a calm,
comfortable space forthemselves, where they just feel
unflappable. They don't wantanyone to be able to throw them
off. And they're really avoidingbeing the cause of discord or
disconnection, so they like tokind of take everything down a
(12:59):
notch. Sometimes they feel like,well, everyone gets way too
worked up about things. Youknow, I it would be better if
everyone would just kind ofrelax a little bit. And they
tend to go along with things andhave a harder time figuring out,
what do I actually want, or whatdo I actually think about this,
because they're going along withwhat everyone else is saying,
(13:22):
because that's how they can kindof survive in a calm space. And
then ones are motivated by thisneed to be good and right and
correct, and really they're not.
It's not about being good atthings. It's about being morally
and ethically good. And theyhave this strict moral code and
these strong kind of containersthat they create for themselves,
(13:42):
a lot of rigidity, becausethat's what they believe will
keep them from, you know,colouring outside the lines, so
to speak. And so they'reavoiding being corrupt or being
bad or being wrong, andespecially being wrong and being
the last to know. So they alwayshave this inner critic who says,
hey, you know, you probablyscrewed that up along the way
there. It's just always kind of,kind of saying that in their
(14:06):
minds, yeah,
Scott Allender (14:10):
yeah. So that's, those are the three body types.
So they're all sharing a centralissue with a sort of, often
unconscious experience of anger,and sometimes that anger is
rooted in matters of fairnessand justice and rightness in the
world, but that's just withinthat centre. Those are three
sort of primary different waysthat those types are trying to
navigate. And kind of, as yousay, I think move away from that
(14:32):
sort of uncomfortable emotion orthat experience, yeah, yeah,
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:35):
yeah. And then we have the heart types. So
type twos are motivated by thisneed to be loved and wanted and
needed, and that really comesout in creating positive
relational rapport with otherpeople, that's kind of their
primary focus, and so they kindof believe I am as lovable as
(14:59):
others. Mirror back. To me. Andso they do everything they can
to be indispensable, and they'reavoiding being disregarded or
discarded or forgettable orreally being rejected. And so a
lot of the time, they're thepeople who will do anything for
(15:21):
the people around them. It's notto say that they do it for every
single person who's ever lived.
They can be a little bit moreselective than that, but they
genuinely like want everyone tofeel good, and so they create
that positive, hospitable place.
And then threes are motivated bythis. Need to be successful in
(15:42):
the sense of being an admirable,impressive, productive person.
And threes have a tendency, andthis is what I alluded to
earlier, to kind of shape shiftand show up differently
depending on who's in the room,because they believe, Oh, that's
how I can be. The mostsuccessful is to show them what
(16:04):
they want to see. And so they'rereally adept at they use that
emotional centre to be able toshape shift really well. And it
sounds fake. It doesn't feelfake for threes, because they're
thinking, Well, I'm justhighlighting pieces of myself
that I like and low lightingother ones, or that you like
more so and low lighting otherones, and so it doesn't feel
(16:30):
inauthentic, though other typesdo perceive it that way, and
they're avoiding being afailure, like they avoid failure
at almost any cost. And thatcould look like not engaging in
things that they know or thatthey're not certain that they
will be successful in. Or itcould look like, you know, doing
(16:55):
whatever they have to do tolike, however hard they have to
work, however much they have tobend themselves out of shape to
be successful or productive. AndI should also say success,
according to them and their likefamily of origin doesn't always
look the same, right, like,
Scott Allender (17:11):
whatever that environment, whatever that
definition of success in thatculture, in that environment,
that's what they represent,essentially. Yeah. And
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:21):
then we have fours who are motivated by
this need to find and expresstheir truest, most authentic
identity. And so they're alwaysplumbing the depths of their
psyche, trying to find what isreally true about me and like,
what can I uncover that's moreand so they're very
introspective. They're veryattuned with their emotional
(17:41):
world. So twos are attuned witheveryone else's emotions, but
not so much their own. Threesuse emotions in a really surface
way to figure out who they needto be, but they don't really
like to process them. They liketo move fast, and emotions slow
you down. And then fours reallyare constantly searching for
more emotionality, and they'reavoiding being inauthentic or
(18:03):
insignificant. And so fours willalways kind of do something a
little bit extra or leave liketheir little, you know, unique
spin on things as a means ofself expression.
Scott Allender (18:17):
Yeah, yeah. So let's move to head types,
Stephanie Barron Hall (18:21):
the five, six, sevens, yeah, so fives are
motivated to by this, need to becompetent and self sufficient.
And self sufficiency is one ofthe most important things. They
sometimes get confused on paper,not in person, but on paper with
eights, because eights want tobe autonomous. That's super
important for eights. But fiveshave this similar drive, but for
(18:43):
different reasons. So fives sayI have to be self sufficient,
because if I'm not, that willinvite other people to intrude
upon me, if I need somethingfrom somebody else, that will
invite them to intrude, and Ijust don't have the energy or
the bandwidth to deal with that,and they're avoiding being
depleted and specificallythinking about their energy
(19:04):
resources, time, emotionalresources, all of that. So they
start each day thinking, this ishow much time or energy I'm
going to have for each thingtoday. And they don't like to be
thrown off. They're verycerebral. They really it's not
to say that they don't haveemotions, but they like to self
isolate and then pick them apartand break them into disparate
(19:24):
parts and deal with emotionsthat way, versus their friends,
the fours that are right next tothem on the Enneagram circle,
who really focus on theemotional aspect, and fives
focus on minimising that andcreating margin in their lives
overall. And then sixes aremotivated by the need to feel
(19:45):
certainty. And they just want tofeel like 100% certain about
anything. And that feeling iselusive, because the closer they
get, the further away that itis. Yeah, and so sixes are
interesting because they haveall this fear, but most of what
they do is actually oriented tomitigate that feeling of fear.
(20:08):
So they they're not thinking,I'm afraid, I'm afraid, I'm
afraid. They're doing whateverthey can, whether that's
planning, whether that'sgathering people around them, or
whether that's trying to scareoff the fear they do. They have
these different tactics to notfeel afraid. And so they're a
little bit tricky, because someof them see fear and they move
(20:29):
away from it, and we call thosephobic sixes. And some of them
see fear and they move towardit, which we call counter phobic
sixes. And it's interesting,because for a while, I would
always say, you know, this isthe type of six that, if, like
the counterphobic Six, theywill, if they're afraid of
heights, they go skydiving. Andthen I was like, Maybe I
(20:50):
shouldn't say that, because itdoes sound stereotypical. But
then every time I don't sharethat in a team session, somebody
says, Oh yeah, I'm afraid ofheights. And so I went
skydiving. And I was like, Okay,I gotta say it again. So like it
but they're just, they're funnyand, yeah, very interesting
(21:10):
people, because they also havethis very contrarian nature. So
anything you say, they like tobe like, I don't know about
that. Are you sure about that? Ihave a lot of sixes in my life,
so it's a fun time, but they'reavoiding being really having
this experience of beingstranded and being like, kind of
caught with their neck out. Sothey're always trying to make
(21:32):
sure that they don't have thatexperience and that their worst
case scenario does not come tofruition. Yeah.
Scott Allender (21:40):
Okay, so great descriptions on both five and
six. All these descriptions, butnow our final in our series,
type seven, final head type tellus about sevens.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:50):
So sevens are motivated by this. Need to
be free to explore the world ofpossibilities. And sometimes
they get stereotyped as they'rejust fun loving and that's all
they care about. But it'sactually about mental
stimulation. So they always wantto have something to chew on,
some puzzle to be processing.
And a lot of the time, if theydon't have that, they're going
to go out and do something thatwill just catch all that, like
kind of consuming experience.
(22:12):
And so when it comes to fear,they're actually just working to
escape it and outrun it. Sothat's that's really what's
motivating them, and they areavoiding being trapped in pain
or boredom. And a lot of sevensdon't really resonate with the
pain part, except that boredomfeels physically painful for
(22:34):
sevens. So they always havesomething new or interesting
that they're moving toward, andthat feels motivating for them.
Scott Allender (22:47):
So thank you for that. I think that's such a
brilliant, high leveldescription, and I know you just
scratched the surface. We couldspend an hour talking about each
Intelligence Centre, right? Andwe could talk about the ways
that head types to have atendency to be biassed towards
their prefrontal cortex andtheir sort of rational planning,
(23:07):
but because they tend to be lessin tune with the body, they miss
out on essential informationright and heart types who over
prioritise connection can missout on other things as well. So
there's a lot. There's like amaster class that could be done
in just the importance of thesethree centres, and let alone, we
could do an hour on each of theindividual types. So somebody
(23:30):
might be listening and thinking,I've heard enough where I
related to that and I related tothat, but I'm not really sure.
How would you advise somebody tostart exploring finding their
type.
Stephanie Barron Hall (23:41):
I used to be the person who was like,
don't take a test. They're onlygoing to lead you astray. And I
have really changed my tune onthat, because it is hard for us
to really understand our thesemotivation things if we don't
have some sort of guide. And Ifind that even you know so I do
(24:03):
typing interviews where I sitdown with somebody and I ask
them the same I ask everyone thesame questions, which is
awesome, because I can then tellthem, Oh, well, fours normally
answer this question this way,and six is this way, etc. But
it's much easier for them toanswer those questions if
they've thought about thisbefore. So that's why I always
recommend starting with anassessment. My very favourite
(24:26):
one is called the compassassessment. But it is cost
prohibitive, and so there are alot of other avenues you can go.
There is an assessment in mybook, which is called Enneagram
in real life, or you I have aself typing guide that's totally
free. And then there are alsoother I mean, you can find a
billion online, and I can sendyou guys, you know, the links
(24:48):
and everything, to the ones thatI like best. So start there and
hold your results very loosely,like think of them as a
suggestion. It's not diagnosingyou. It's not. Telling you for
certain, that's your job. So youget your results. And I say,
start with the first, the topthree, and see what resonates.
(25:09):
So go and read about, you know,say your top three results are
three, seven and eight. Then yougo and read about those three
types. Kind of get a feel forthem, and then listen to podcast
interviews, watch panels onYouTube. Those pieces are really
important because, like Imentioned earlier, sometimes
(25:31):
people think, Oh, I'm half fiveand half eight. And when you
actually experience what thosetypes are really like, they're
very different. But sometimesthey get confused or same with
four and nine, people think, Oh,I'm you know, half four, half
nine, and they're verydifferent. And you can get a
feel for that a little bit morewhen you're listening to an
(25:54):
interview or watching panelliststalk about their experience.
Yeah, a little bit better.
Scott Allender (26:03):
And so touching on there is that that types do
the same things, but they do itfor different reasons, exactly.
Stephanie Barron Hall (26:12):
And so I think that's what I want to
encourage as well, is looking atthe motivational level, like,
what are the things that aredriving you forward? You know,
you might ask yourself, over mycareer, what feedback have I
gotten consistently? I see thata lot, where I see somebody
who's like, my whole career,I've been told you're really
(26:33):
hard on yourself. And there arecertain types that are that
particularly struggle with that.
And sometimes that, thatfeedback, can be really
enlightening. So yeah, read,watch and listen, and then
notice, like, Okay, what is thistelling me to do? Because that's
(26:53):
the thing we want with theEnneagram, is for it to be
practical. So we want the growthpractices. So check out some of
the growth practices and saywhich of these feel really
tricky for me? Which of them areeasy? If it's really easy,
unless you are, you know, fullyenlightened, it's probably not
going to feel really easy, andthat might not be the right type
(27:15):
for you, because for all of us,there is this real, like,
stretch that occurs when we'redoing growth aligned with our
Enneagram type, because it'suncomfortable.
Scott Allender (27:30):
Let's talk about the growth work because, you
know, that's that's anotherstandout difference of the
Enneagram compared to other sortof typologies, which a lot of
typologies will give you newadjectives to describe yourself,
right? And sort of like, Yeah,that's true. I do prefer x, or I
do prefer y, or I am kind oflike that in certain meetings.
But the Enneagram invitationactually is to learn all you can
(27:50):
about your type, all the reasonswhy you sort of identify with
that type, and how that strategysupported you to get your needs
met, but also the way that it'slimiting you. And the Enneagram
itself can serve even as a mapfor how to sort of transcend the
limitations of your type so youcan actually start to take on
more diverse perspectives. Iwant to turn to the work you're
(28:12):
doing with Fortune 500 companieslike so this is, you know,
helping them to understandpatterns in leadership. This is
a leadership podcast I'm reallyinterested in, like, the leaders
you work with, the teamdynamics, and how working with
the Enneagram can give a lot ofinsights and come back to the
growth work, right? And I wantto hear like, how do you work in
(28:33):
organisations? To not onlypresent this information, help
people to understand theirdifferences, appreciate their
differences, cultivate somecuriosity, hopefully, and
understanding the empathybetween the differences, but
then also the growth work. Yeah,
Stephanie Barron Hall (28:49):
I will say I've worked with a lot of
teams who are in kind of thatmessy middle of like they've
been around together for awhile, and things are feeling
like they're not going verywell. And I think the Enneagram
can be so helpful in thosetimes, because my angle with it
is really, I really want to keepit practical, because I do want
(29:11):
people to use it, so I talkabout it through the lens of
communication. So how I normallyframe this is say I'm the type
of person who, when I'm angry, Iget silent, and I go into a
meeting and my colleague issilent, and I start assigning my
(29:33):
motivation to their behaviour.
So my motivation of being angry,I'm like they're silent. So they
must be have the same motivationas me, so they must be angry,
and then we don't realise it,because we try to be emotionally
mature and thoughtfulindividuals, but we start being
defensive, maybe a little short,maybe avoiding that person, and
that's where so muchmiscommunication can happen,
(29:54):
whereas if you think, Okay, Ihave my own motivation and. They
have theirs. So let me just staycurious. You could figure out,
actually, they're having a badday, they're tired, they're just
thinking. They're processing.
There's so many other thingsthat could be happening for that
person, other than the singularmotivation we ascribe to them.
(30:16):
And then if you kind of zoom outfrom that and think about it
through the Enneagram lens, youcan realise, oh, they're not
trying to drive me crazy. Likethere is a reason why they feel
this is the best way to moveforward. Like sometimes with
sixes on the team, sixes ask alot of questions. And so because
(30:39):
they have these real concerns,that they think that, that they
believe in, and they're right,that they need to be attended
to. And so they're testing andquestioning all these things.
But it's not out of competition.
But then you you've got othertypes, like threes or eights who
perceive that as them justtrying to compete for
leadership. And that's wherethings get all mired in all this
(31:01):
drama and all that kind ofstuff. And so when I'm working
with teams, I like to encourageeveryone to look at their own
shadows or their own blind spotsand to focus more on the
positives from other people,because I don't want people
creating an unsafe workenvironment by, like, depleting
(31:23):
psychological safety by justbeing accusatory with the
Enneagram, right? Yeah, so. Butwhen they're looking at their
own stuff, they say, Okay, thisis how this is coming across, or
this is what I'm meaning, andthis is, you know, what I'm
actually sharing or being reallyclear with other people. This is
(31:47):
how it works best to communicatewith me. And when I say this,
that often gets misunderstood,and I want to clarify that, so
just helping people to open upsome of those conversations and
be a lot more clear about them.
And it can be really useful withleaders, because I think, you
(32:09):
know, what I really like to dois interview everyone on the
team, and then, you know, dosome coaching with the leader
and for them to learn, like, Oh,I thought I that it was having x
impact and was having y impact,and helping them to understand
how they could get the effectthat they're wanting. And
(32:34):
normally, there is an Enneagramexplanation for it, right? And
so helping, helping them work onokay, if I'm a three, and I've
seen this many times, a threeleader who is running their
people ragged, yeah, becausethey have such high
expectations, or a seven leaderwho's like, who can't say, No,
(32:59):
we can't take on any moreprojects, and just gets so
excited and wants to do allthese different interesting
things. And then when theirpeople are stressed, they say,
Okay, let's just re scope. Sothey they re scope every
project, but they have the sameamount of projects, so people
aren't getting any relief. Sothose are kind of some of the
things that I work through. AndI feel like that was like a
(33:20):
meandering explanation, but it'sit's so individualised, but yet,
the Enneagram material that I'mdelivering is consistent, and
every time it works, and thatalways blows me away. Yeah,
Scott Allender (33:37):
yeah, same I feel like when I work with
teams, you know, it's theresults you see are always the
reward, right? Because the stuffis just like it repeats itself,
and the patterns are showing upand at different teams,
different cultures, differentdynamics, but it all kind of
shows up in the same way. So youmentioned, like the example with
(33:58):
the sevens and the threes andsevens and eights, I think you
said, and the sort of interplaywith a six who might be
contrarian and asking questionsand shining doubt, it's, you
know, my invitation to thoseleaders are, that's exactly who
you need in a room. You've gotto stop stacking the room with
three sevens and eights who aregoing to get into action so
quickly that maybe they aren'tseen around corners, right? And
(34:19):
sixes need a little bit more ofthe opposite, right? If they're
a six leader who's sort ofgetting paralysed by gosh, I'm
not certain. I have no certaintyhere, right? I don't want to
take a risk, because what if therisk produces catastrophe? And
now I'm worried about that. Soit's also, I think, organising
your teams and your meetings andyour strategy sessions with
making sure you've got all theperspectives from what those
(34:41):
gifts of those types bring, asopposed to our tendency, which
is to avoid the types thatirritate us because they're not
like us, right, right?
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:49):
And I've created a framework around that
to help people understand this,so it's like a car analogy. So
we have the gas the types thatare like we're just. To go, and
we can figure it out along theway. So three, seven and eight,
and then the breaks. And Ipeople sometimes in these type
(35:11):
groups, don't like being calledthe breaks, but I still call
them that, because it's like, soone, five and six, and these are
the types that are like, we aregoing to go off a cliff. We need
to navigate this turn like,let's slow down a bit. Like,
let's figure out, you know, whatwe're going to do. Do we
actually have capacity for this?
So those sorts of questions,three sevens and eights do not
(35:33):
think, do I have capacity forthis? And then endless capacity?
Yeah, and that actually turnsout to not be humanly possible,
right? And then the alignment,which are two, four and nine,
and they're very people orientedtypes, and they're asking, are
all the wheels pointing the samedirection? Like Are we all on
the same page? And I think thatusing this framework has really
(35:57):
helped me work with teams who,especially in corporate America,
sometimes there is that presumedhierarchy of like, well, threes
and sevens and eights are thebest because they move the
fastest or whatever, and helpingpeople to grasp that we all need
all These different voices inthe room. Yeah,
Scott Allender (36:21):
yeah. Well, that's, yeah, you're touching
on, you know, especially forthrees in Western culture,
right? That sort of endlesscapacity, work myself to death
and work my team to death oftengets rewarded because they're
tireless. They'll sleep whenthey're dead, right? They just
keep going, right? But it's notsustainable. So how do you use
the Enneagram with teams? Or doyou for I mean, you're touching
(36:42):
on this and your answersalready, but do you ever like
approach this with anintentional focus on Team
sustainability and well being?
And is there any sort of some, Iknow, there's a lot of leaders
that I talk to that, you know,they're all on the not all, but
so many leaders are on the vergeof burning out, right? And they
feel like their teams areburning out and well being.
Initiatives and organisationsare often bolted onto the side
(37:03):
and they're not baked into thework that we do. Any other
thoughts you might have on how ateam might work with a leader
might work with this system forthe purposes of achieving
sustainable well being?
Stephanie Barron Hall (37:18):
Yeah, I think the thing that I like to
point to is that, admittedly,it's been a little while now
since I did my graduate degree,but there's all this research
about how intent to turn overdecreases when people feel
understood by their manager andthey feel like, okay, my manager
(37:41):
supports me. And I think thatthat is so important for people
to recognise, because theEnneagram is one of those ways
for people to feel moreunderstood, especially if it's
used with, you know, humilityand like, thoughtfulness. And I
think that's also one of thereasons why more companies
(38:03):
should invest in tools like theEnneagram, because turnover is
very expensive. So if they candecrease the desire for people
to leave, because there's thatold, old adage that you know,
you've heard a million times,people don't leave companies,
they leave managers, right? So Ithink a supportive person in
(38:23):
that role can go a long way. So,and I really believe, and I've
seen this play out, that if,even if somebody doesn't feel
totally understood, if they feellike their manager is really
trying to understand them, thatgoes a long way. And then also,
in general, we spend so much ofour time at work or on work zoom
(38:46):
calls, you know, whatever thecase may be. And if we can
improve mental health there,then that improves us overall.
Yeah. And so creating workplaceswhere people are communicating,
well, where people are nottaking so much offence, where
people are just broadly morecompassionate toward one
(39:10):
another. I think those things goa long way. And, you know,
there's also the research aroundburnout being more about like
creating meaning sometimes cancan be more useful than, like,
just decreasing what you'redoing, like, the amount of hours
you're working. And so sometimesI think meaningful connections
(39:31):
can guard against it. Now, yeah,does that solve
Scott Allender (39:34):
it? I agree, yeah. No, it's brilliant.
Sara Deschamps (39:40):
If the conversations we've been having
on The Evolving Leader havehelped you in any way, please
share this episode with yournetwork friends and family.
Thank you so much for listening.
Now let's get back to theconversation.
Scott Allender (39:52):
Let's turn to your book, because I really have
to commend you again. I thinkyou've done this incredible.
Job. You know, you wrote, it'scalled Enneagram in real life,
and so you've done thisbrilliant job of being really
practical. And everything you'vebeen saying in this conversation
emphasises the pragmatic, butyou've done it in a way that is
(40:14):
still so engaging, right? It'sso like in I read every page,
and as I was going through it,I'm just like, I am drawn into
this. It's not written like atextbook, but every page is
filled with really usefulinformation. So kudos again on
that. And I wish you'd writtenyour book before I wrote mine,
because I would have written abetter book, I think, had I read
yours first honestly, but it'sit's really great. Tell me why
(40:37):
you wrote it, who it's aimed at,and you wrote another book at
the same time, didn't you?
That's coming out soon as well,which is nuts, and you as a
three I'm kind of worried thatyou've done two books at one
time. Me too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:53):
So I started writing about the
Enneagram in like around 2018 onInstagram, and around that time
is when I also started workingwith teams and small groups. And
over the years, I've gotten thesame question, which is, I know
my type now. What do I do withit? And so I really set out to
(41:14):
answer that question, and thematerial that's in the book
originally, I created like anonline course and did basically
like a group coaching cohort,and coached people through this
material, like I taught it viavideos, and then we discuss,
which was so helpful as well,because knowing what works and
(41:35):
what doesn't is really, reallyhelpful. And so it's, it's that
question of, like, what do I dowith this information that I
wanted to answer? And myperspective on the Enneagram is,
like you mentioned earlier, it'sa map, so it's telling us what
direction to go. But theEnneagram doesn't innately have,
(41:55):
like, you know, these aretherapy practices, these are
coaching practices. So I loveself help books, and so I
thought, what if I wrotesomething that feels like a self
help book that has, like, all ofthese different practices, but
(42:15):
because sometimes I'll readthem, like, for example, chatter
by Ethan cross, one of myfavourites, and I can read
through that and be like, Oh,this would be good for this
type, and this is good for thistype. But in general, most self
help books are kind of writtenfor a broad audience, but in
reality, when I read them, I'mlike, this tip is helpful for
(42:37):
this type. And so it was kind ofa way for me to take that
concept and write nine self helpbooks, if you will. So about 50%
of each chapter is full of like,okay, this is the description of
what this looks like. This pieceof the Enneagram that we're
exploring here. And this is howyou work on it. So really, that
(42:59):
emphasis on that. And the secondpiece of why I wrote it was, I
mentioned earlier that I dotyping interviews, and a lot of
the time, you know, I'm like,Okay, well, the evidence points
to type one, or the evidencepoints to type three. And
they're like, You know what, I'mreally not a perfectionist
enough to be a one, or I'm notsuccessful enough to be a three,
(43:22):
and it made me realise that whenpeople are getting so much of
their information in these quicklittle bite sized pieces,
whether that's on Tiktok orInstagram or wherever, they're
not getting a deep enoughunderstanding of the
underworkings of the typesthemselves to be able to
actually apply the information.
And that was stopping a lot ofpeople as well. So I really
wanted to create something thatwould have more of that depth,
so that people could then applyit, so it's kind of both of
(43:47):
those things. And thenthroughout, I just included
stories from people that Iinterviewed specifically for the
book, because I don't includeanything about my actual
coaching or typing clients, andthen stories from Team workshops
over the years. So it has a lotof little, you know, many
anecdotes. Yeah,
Scott Allender (44:09):
I'd like to come back full circle to the start of
our conversation when yourhusband introduced you to the
system that I don't know. Is heglad he introduced you to this
now? Or No, I guess if the booksells enough copies, he's right.
But, you know, you talked abouthaving some ick moments, right?
You sort of like there's becausethe Enneagram is not a system
(44:31):
designed for flattery, right?
There's positive stuff in there.
It'll point to all the ways. Imean, if, if our types didn't
serve us well and have positiveattributes, we wouldn't be sort
of stuck there, right? Theyserve us in some ways. So
there's positive stuff, butthere is that, like, non
flattering kind of, like,stories that start to come to
light, like, what's behind themotivation? What's this frame
(44:53):
I'm holding up to life? Like,why am I seeing this? What's
What's this fear in me tellingme, like, threes, you know? You
and I are both share point threeas our type, right? And I
remember when I first read that,you know, the core fear of a
three is that, apart from whatthey achieve, they have no worth
it was like a gut punch, right?
And at first I wanted to resistit and be like, that's not true.
(45:16):
That's not that would be a veryunhealthy perspective. But the
longer I sat with it, and themore I reflected on my own life,
the more I saw evidence of that,like how stopping work left me
feeling so unsettled, right?
Like I didn't know what to dowith myself at the end of the
day, when I couldn't find moreto do, right? So how did you
(45:39):
move past the ick, there's asign on your wall I'm seeing
behind you, the courage tochange the things I can like,
how did you find the courage tokeep going? Why somebody even
listening today who might havecaught a bit of an ick moment
going, Gosh, I maybe that one orthat seven, or whatever you've
described, might be me. How doHow did you find the courage?
(46:00):
What has it done for your lifeand what would be your end? Your
invitation to others?
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:05):
Yeah, I think it's the little glimpses
along the way of insight orenlightenment that are like, Oh,
that's why I do that, or, Oh,that's what I was doing. And
realising that, I think that'swhere the kind of courage to
keep going comes from, right?
Because otherwise you're like,Oh, this feels like a slog. But
(46:28):
I also think I really wanted tobe healthier for the people
around me, and I tend to be veryself critical, which three is
typically kind of are, but some,some threes aren't, but it's not
one of the types that everyone'slike, Oh, they're the most self
critical type, but we can bethat way. And I was like, How do
(46:50):
I get rid of this? Like, how doi Quiet that? And I think what
really set me on that path. Andalso the question for three is,
is, who am I, and what do I Iactually want? If I'm not
looking at everyone else to tellme what I want, what do I
(47:10):
actually want? So, um, yeah, Iwas just like, Okay, what is the
path to figure out what I want,and I learned that the way to do
that was through becoming moreaccepting of and in tune with my
emotions. And so that has been awhole thing that's been a big
(47:31):
part of the process, is becomingmore emotionally aware and
attuned and allowing space andtime for that. And it's
interesting, because now when Ido things that it's like
somebody else is telling me Ihave to do this and I don't want
to, it feels painful. And threesare kind of built to be like,
(47:55):
I'll do whatever, and it doesn'tmatter how I feel about it,
right? Yeah, like, that's ournatural mode. And so I think
that in some ways, I don't havethat anymore, and it's
interesting to kind of explorethat. But I also, you know, once
I started seeing, like, how itwas helping my relationships and
(48:19):
things like that too. I waslike, okay, that's helpful.
Scott Allender (48:24):
Yeah, yeah, I feel similar. And it's not, it's
not a straight line journeyeither, right? It's that's a lot
of it's a lot of ups and downsand two steps forward, one step
back. And it's all about being,as you say, compassionate with
yourself, curious to know more,right? Hold yourself with
compassionate curiosity and asyou go on this sort of journey.
(48:50):
Brilliant. So how do people getin touch with you if they want
to hire you for coaching orworkshops?
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:56):
Yeah, you can book a call with me on my
website, which is nine types.coand it's all spelled out. And,
yeah, I start with aconsultation call for everyone,
because I want to figure out theoutcomes that you want for your
team. And then we'll we'll gofrom there and work together.
(49:20):
And then you can also find mybook on my website, which is,
again, nine types.co and thebook is called Enneagram in real
life, and you can find itwherever books are sold,
including the audiobook, which Igot to read. Did
Scott Allender (49:32):
you do the audiobook?
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:33):
I did
Scott Allender (49:34):
Awesome. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, yeah,
folks, if you have felt a tingeof curiosity at all. And in this
conversation, I do encourage youto order Steph book straight
away, the Enneagram in reallife. And when does your next
part of the book? I don't know.
I don't know yet. I turn it. Youturn it in soon, though? Right?
(49:58):
Yeah. Yeah,
Stephanie Barron Hall (50:00):
yeah. So it's in. It's just, we'll see
what the next part of theprocess looks like.
Scott Allender (50:05):
Okay, okay.
Well, listen, get the bookeveryone. You won't regret it, I
promise you. It's, you know,when you find your type in there
and you start reading, you'regoing to not be able to put it
down, I promise you that. Andit's going to be well worth it.
And contact Steph for workingwith your teams. Steph, thanks
so much for sharing some of yourtime today and your wisdom and
your insights. We appreciate
Stephanie Barron Hall (50:27):
you.
Thanks for having me. This isreally fun, and
Scott Allender (50:31):
until next time, folks remember, the world is
evolving. Are you? You?
Hi, folks, welcome to The Evolving Leader
the show born from the beliefthat we need deeper, more
accountable and more humanleadership to confront the
world's biggest challenges. I'mScott Allender, and if you're
new to the show, welcome. We'rereally appreciate that you're
here. And if you're a regularlistener, thank you. We are so
grateful for your continuedsupport. And if you're a regular
listener, then you'll know thatpart of our aim in helping all
(00:46):
of us to create deeperaccountability and more human
leadership is found throughhelping us all to build a more
radical self awareness and atruer, more empathetic
understanding of others. How wemake sense of ourselves and the
world around us is a cornerstoneof our leadership, both for good
or for bad. And long time,listeners of the show will know
(01:06):
that an approach that I like totake for better understanding
myself and other people isthrough the Enneagram. Back in
season one, we had best sellingEnneagram author Ian Morgan Cron
on the show, and then when mybook, The Enneagram of emotional
intelligence came out two yearsago. We devoted a whole episode
to that. So if you're anEnneagram curious human, then
you're in the right place. Ifyou're not, then please don't
(01:29):
turn off the dial. Stay open andstay with us. Lean In, because I
think you're going to get somereally keen insights today from
wherever you are on your selfawareness journey. Because today
we are joined by Enneagram,teacher, coach, speaker,
Stephanie Barron Hall. Stephaniedraws from her education in
(01:50):
psychology and post graduatework in organisational
communications to create aunique and accessible approach
to working with Enneagram inorganisations, and she's just
released a book that I'vedescribed as the new go to book
on the Enneagram, and I stand bythat assertions. It's called the
Enneagram in real life, and shehosts a podcast by the same
(02:11):
name, and she also has like akajillion followers on her
instagram at nine types coSteph, welcome to The Evolving
Leader.
Stephanie Barron Hall (02:20):
Thanks so much for having me.
Scott Allender (02:22):
How are you feeling today?
Stephanie Barron Hall (02:24):
Good, yeah, yeah,
Scott Allender (02:26):
you just got over an illness, but you're
feeling good,
Stephanie Barron Hall (02:28):
yeah. And I, uh, rushed here because
morning rush hour traffic. I waslike, hustling in, you know,
trying to make it on time. So
Scott Allender (02:38):
wow, thanks for being here, I'm gonna jump into
help our audience get to knowyou a little bit better. Say
we're at a dinner party and andyour answer might help me when I
get this question and somebodycomes up to you and says, So I
hear you've written a book aboutwhat at the Enneagram, what is
this thing you've done? What doyou tell them? How do you get
(03:01):
into that conversation?
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:03):
Um, first of all, I I'm like, yes, the
Enneagram. Yeah, because no, nocoffee enemas involved here,
though, I always like to say theEnneagram is a motivation based
personality framework orientedaround nine core types. And what
(03:24):
I really like about it is thatit's very growth oriented, so it
really helps us to understandnot only where we are, but kind
of where we're going and wherewe've been. And so that's kind
of my elevator pitch, if youwill.
Scott Allender (03:37):
Yeah. How did you discover it?
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:40):
Actually, so I've always been interested
in personality, everything, butthe Enneagram in particular. My
husband heard about on apodcast, and he was like, Oh,
you would probably like this.
And he handed me his readyresults. So for our listeners,
the ready is the Rizzo HudsonEnneagram Type Indicator, and it
is a pretty gold standardassessment that people have used
(04:04):
for a very long time, and it'sabout $12 so he handed me the
results from that, and I waslike, cool, you know, great. I'm
gonna, like, set that aside fornow. Didn't really listen. And
then a few months later, myolder sister was like, you have
to take the Enneagram. So I waslike, Oh, fine, because you have
(04:26):
to do what older sisters say.
And so I took it, and I saw theachiever pop up on the screen.
And I was like, Yes, I won. Andvery quickly I started reading
more about what that actuallymeant, and I was like, oh, no, I
(04:48):
do not like this. And it kind oftook me on this whole journey.
Scott Allender (04:53):
What didn't you like? Well, two
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:56):
things that kind of popped out right
away. One was that I. The wholechameleon esque aspect of the
type three, which is sometimescalled the achiever, the part
about moving and shifting, howyou show up depending on who
you're with. And it wassomething that I had recently
started noticing about myselfand I didn't like, but I also
(05:18):
thought people can't tell andreading about it on the page, I
was like, Oh my gosh, people cansee me. And that was really
challenging, like feeling likepeople can see this thing that
I'm doing and that I wasn't evenaware that I was doing. And so I
(05:40):
was kind of mortified by that,and then the second piece was
that I was out of touch with myemotions. And my whole life, I
had been told, You're sosensitive, You're too sensitive.
So I didn't think that I was outof touch with my emotions, but
very quickly I startedrecognising, oh no, I totally
(06:02):
am. And being sensitive is notthe same as being able to like,
access and process emotionsappropriately. So those kind of
stood out to me, and that tookme on this whole path.
Scott Allender (06:17):
So I want to talk more about that path,
because I'm really curious howthis journey has changed. You
both the difficult realitiesthat you've started to describe,
as well as the sort of thingsthat are, hopefully are a little
bit sunnier, as well as part ofthe whole comprehensive journey.
But before we do that, becausethis is not a official Enneagram
podcast, right? So maybe it'd begood if we could do a whistle
(06:40):
stop tour. You mentioned it's amotivation based system. I've
talked to talked about this abit on the show before, but I'd
love to just kind of have you doa master class in like a minute
of kind of like the nine types.
What do they mean? Why should wecare? Anything you want to share
there? Yeah. So
Stephanie Barron Hall (06:58):
I'll start um, with why we should
care. And I think that this partis really important. I think a
lot of us are looking for someunderstanding of who we are,
some sense of self awareness. Ithink especially people who
listen to this podcast, arelooking for that. And then the
other kind of group that I seelooking for that are the people
(07:20):
that I work with. I work withactually a lot of like for
Fortune 500 companies, and I seea lot of leaders who are looking
for some reason or some way todo things differently, because
they're like, it's just notclicking with people how I'm
going about this. And so that'swhy I like the Enneagram,
(07:40):
because part of the piece aboutbeing motivation based is if you
learn it at work, you can use itat home, too, and vice versa. So
it's not like something likedisc, which is a great tool, but
it's more situational, so thecontext matters a lot more. It's
just it has, like the underlyingmotivation, and you can kind of
(08:02):
always track with that. So Iknow this is kind of weird, but
in Enneagram circles, we like tostart with type eight. So
Scott Allender (08:16):
I know why we do that. Why do we do that stuff?
Yeah, so
Stephanie Barron Hall (08:20):
the Enneagram is full of all these
different complexities. So itseems like, oh, just nine
numbers. How hard could that be?
But actually, there's a lot moreto it, and one of the kind of
baseline ways we look at thetypes is through the lens of
intelligence centres, meaning weall have different centres of
intelligence where we have like,kind of this innate attention
and and focus. And so we havethree types, and all of them
(08:45):
have, like, an aversive emotionthat is underpinning them. So
people always ask, why are theemotions negative? And it's
like, well, it's something thatwe're all trying to escape in
some, some sort of way. So withthe exception of type eight, but
I'll come back to that. So thebody types are eight, nine and
(09:07):
one, and they have underlyinganger that they want to kind of
issue. Eights are really okaywith it. They feel fine about
it. But the other two types,nine and one, want to suppress
it or repress it, just find away to not be angry. Two, three
and four have an underlyingsadness, and these are the heart
types, and they are reallyfocused more on image and
(09:29):
identity and those sorts ofquestions, like, who am I? Is
the big question for the hearttypes. And then five, six and
seven are the head types, or themind types, and they're focused
on stability and safety, andthey have an underlying fear,
and so they're using analysisand strategy to make sure that
they don't feel afraid.
Scott Allender (09:50):
And we overuse one of those centres, right? So
we talk a lot of this show, soI'm pause before we go into the
nine types, because we talk alot on the show about one of the
ways. We build self awareness tosee and solve our greatest
challenges is to pay moreattention to what's happening in
our body, to pay more attentionto what our emotions are telling
us why they're constructed inthe first place, and what
information they're giving us,and then to integrate the sort
(10:14):
of prefrontal cortex and thelogic and the rationale, and
it's all three of those thingsworking in harmony that actually
give us so much insights andeven speak into our well being
and how we like experience ourlives personally as well. So in
those sort of three centres as astarting place, if you heard
Steph describe them at that highlevel, you know, kind of think
(10:35):
about which one of those maybeyou sit in as a natural place,
because we doesn't mean that weare skilled in using that all
the time, right? It's like weprefer that centre. We try to
operate life from that centre,but sometimes we overuse that
centre till it becomesineffective. What would you say
about that?
Stephanie Barron Hall (10:55):
Yeah, I think that's very true. Is that
we're always overusing one ofthem, and that that's when it
becomes dysfunctional. And sothe whole idea of the Enneagram
is not to change your type orchange your centre or any of
that. It's to bring them allinto balance. And so sometimes
what I see is that people havethese really strong judgments
(11:17):
about their type or their centreor whatever. And you know, it's
because they're like, oh, that'sjust gross. Like, I see that all
the time, and I hate it, youknow? And it's useful, I think,
for us to observe that, but alsoto recognise it's just about
(11:37):
balance. It's not about gettingrid of that.
Scott Allender (11:42):
I so those are three centres. Now let's go
ahead and do the sort of ninesort of ways that people are
responding,
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:52):
sure, so eights are motivated by this.
Need to be against. And it's notagainst to be contrarian. It's
against to say, like, I amtough, I'm strong. You can't
overtake me, you can't overpowerme. And they're avoiding any
semblance of vulnerability orweakness. And so they really
have this tough exterior. Now,if you know an eight they're not
(12:15):
just jerks all the time. Theyhave a lot of kindness, and you
know these other qualitiesbeneath the surface, but they
lead with that toughdecisiveness and seem to not
really care much about whatother people think. And so
they're very driven and dynamicpeople. Then we have nines who
are motivated by the need to beat peace internally and
(12:37):
externally. And this is reallyabout creating a calm,
comfortable space forthemselves, where they just feel
unflappable. They don't wantanyone to be able to throw them
off. And they're really avoidingbeing the cause of discord or
disconnection, so they like tokind of take everything down a
(12:59):
notch. Sometimes they feel like,well, everyone gets way too
worked up about things. Youknow, I it would be better if
everyone would just kind ofrelax a little bit. And they
tend to go along with things andhave a harder time figuring out,
what do I actually want, or whatdo I actually think about this,
because they're going along withwhat everyone else is saying,
(13:22):
because that's how they can kindof survive in a calm space. And
then ones are motivated by thisneed to be good and right and
correct, and really they're not.
It's not about being good atthings. It's about being morally
and ethically good. And theyhave this strict moral code and
these strong kind of containersthat they create for themselves,
(13:42):
a lot of rigidity, becausethat's what they believe will
keep them from, you know,colouring outside the lines, so
to speak. And so they'reavoiding being corrupt or being
bad or being wrong, andespecially being wrong and being
the last to know. So they alwayshave this inner critic who says,
hey, you know, you probablyscrewed that up along the way
there. It's just always kind of,kind of saying that in their
(14:06):
minds, yeah,
Scott Allender (14:10):
yeah. So that's, those are the three body types.
So they're all sharing a centralissue with a sort of, often
unconscious experience of anger,and sometimes that anger is
rooted in matters of fairnessand justice and rightness in the
world, but that's just withinthat centre. Those are three
sort of primary different waysthat those types are trying to
navigate. And kind of, as yousay, I think move away from that
(14:32):
sort of uncomfortable emotion orthat experience, yeah, yeah,
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:35):
yeah. And then we have the heart types. So
type twos are motivated by thisneed to be loved and wanted and
needed, and that really comesout in creating positive
relational rapport with otherpeople, that's kind of their
primary focus, and so they kindof believe I am as lovable as
(14:59):
others. Mirror back. To me. Andso they do everything they can
to be indispensable, and they'reavoiding being disregarded or
discarded or forgettable orreally being rejected. And so a
lot of the time, they're thepeople who will do anything for
(15:21):
the people around them. It's notto say that they do it for every
single person who's ever lived.
They can be a little bit moreselective than that, but they
genuinely like want everyone tofeel good, and so they create
that positive, hospitable place.
And then threes are motivated bythis. Need to be successful in
(15:42):
the sense of being an admirable,impressive, productive person.
And threes have a tendency, andthis is what I alluded to
earlier, to kind of shape shiftand show up differently
depending on who's in the room,because they believe, Oh, that's
how I can be. The mostsuccessful is to show them what
(16:04):
they want to see. And so they'rereally adept at they use that
emotional centre to be able toshape shift really well. And it
sounds fake. It doesn't feelfake for threes, because they're
thinking, Well, I'm justhighlighting pieces of myself
that I like and low lightingother ones, or that you like
more so and low lighting otherones, and so it doesn't feel
(16:30):
inauthentic, though other typesdo perceive it that way, and
they're avoiding being afailure, like they avoid failure
at almost any cost. And thatcould look like not engaging in
things that they know or thatthey're not certain that they
will be successful in. Or itcould look like, you know, doing
(16:55):
whatever they have to do tolike, however hard they have to
work, however much they have tobend themselves out of shape to
be successful or productive. AndI should also say success,
according to them and their likefamily of origin doesn't always
look the same, right, like,
Scott Allender (17:11):
whatever that environment, whatever that
definition of success in thatculture, in that environment,
that's what they represent,essentially. Yeah. And
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:21):
then we have fours who are motivated by
this need to find and expresstheir truest, most authentic
identity. And so they're alwaysplumbing the depths of their
psyche, trying to find what isreally true about me and like,
what can I uncover that's moreand so they're very
introspective. They're veryattuned with their emotional
(17:41):
world. So twos are attuned witheveryone else's emotions, but
not so much their own. Threesuse emotions in a really surface
way to figure out who they needto be, but they don't really
like to process them. They liketo move fast, and emotions slow
you down. And then fours reallyare constantly searching for
more emotionality, and they'reavoiding being inauthentic or
(18:03):
insignificant. And so fours willalways kind of do something a
little bit extra or leave liketheir little, you know, unique
spin on things as a means ofself expression.
Scott Allender (18:17):
Yeah, yeah. So let's move to head types,
Stephanie Barron Hall (18:21):
the five, six, sevens, yeah, so fives are
motivated to by this, need to becompetent and self sufficient.
And self sufficiency is one ofthe most important things. They
sometimes get confused on paper,not in person, but on paper with
eights, because eights want tobe autonomous. That's super
important for eights. But fiveshave this similar drive, but for
(18:43):
different reasons. So fives sayI have to be self sufficient,
because if I'm not, that willinvite other people to intrude
upon me, if I need somethingfrom somebody else, that will
invite them to intrude, and Ijust don't have the energy or
the bandwidth to deal with that,and they're avoiding being
depleted and specificallythinking about their energy
(19:04):
resources, time, emotionalresources, all of that. So they
start each day thinking, this ishow much time or energy I'm
going to have for each thingtoday. And they don't like to be
thrown off. They're verycerebral. They really it's not
to say that they don't haveemotions, but they like to self
isolate and then pick them apartand break them into disparate
(19:24):
parts and deal with emotionsthat way, versus their friends,
the fours that are right next tothem on the Enneagram circle,
who really focus on theemotional aspect, and fives
focus on minimising that andcreating margin in their lives
overall. And then sixes aremotivated by the need to feel
(19:45):
certainty. And they just want tofeel like 100% certain about
anything. And that feeling iselusive, because the closer they
get, the further away that itis. Yeah, and so sixes are
interesting because they haveall this fear, but most of what
they do is actually oriented tomitigate that feeling of fear.
(20:08):
So they they're not thinking,I'm afraid, I'm afraid, I'm
afraid. They're doing whateverthey can, whether that's
planning, whether that'sgathering people around them, or
whether that's trying to scareoff the fear they do. They have
these different tactics to notfeel afraid. And so they're a
little bit tricky, because someof them see fear and they move
(20:29):
away from it, and we call thosephobic sixes. And some of them
see fear and they move towardit, which we call counter phobic
sixes. And it's interesting,because for a while, I would
always say, you know, this isthe type of six that, if, like
the counterphobic Six, theywill, if they're afraid of
heights, they go skydiving. Andthen I was like, Maybe I
(20:50):
shouldn't say that, because itdoes sound stereotypical. But
then every time I don't sharethat in a team session, somebody
says, Oh yeah, I'm afraid ofheights. And so I went
skydiving. And I was like, Okay,I gotta say it again. So like it
but they're just, they're funnyand, yeah, very interesting
(21:10):
people, because they also havethis very contrarian nature. So
anything you say, they like tobe like, I don't know about
that. Are you sure about that? Ihave a lot of sixes in my life,
so it's a fun time, but they'reavoiding being really having
this experience of beingstranded and being like, kind of
caught with their neck out. Sothey're always trying to make
(21:32):
sure that they don't have thatexperience and that their worst
case scenario does not come tofruition. Yeah.
Scott Allender (21:40):
Okay, so great descriptions on both five and
six. All these descriptions, butnow our final in our series,
type seven, final head type tellus about sevens.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:50):
So sevens are motivated by this. Need to
be free to explore the world ofpossibilities. And sometimes
they get stereotyped as they'rejust fun loving and that's all
they care about. But it'sactually about mental
stimulation. So they always wantto have something to chew on,
some puzzle to be processing.
And a lot of the time, if theydon't have that, they're going
to go out and do something thatwill just catch all that, like
kind of consuming experience.
(22:12):
And so when it comes to fear,they're actually just working to
escape it and outrun it. Sothat's that's really what's
motivating them, and they areavoiding being trapped in pain
or boredom. And a lot of sevensdon't really resonate with the
pain part, except that boredomfeels physically painful for
(22:34):
sevens. So they always havesomething new or interesting
that they're moving toward, andthat feels motivating for them.
Scott Allender (22:47):
So thank you for that. I think that's such a
brilliant, high leveldescription, and I know you just
scratched the surface. We couldspend an hour talking about each
Intelligence Centre, right? Andwe could talk about the ways
that head types to have atendency to be biassed towards
their prefrontal cortex andtheir sort of rational planning,
(23:07):
but because they tend to be lessin tune with the body, they miss
out on essential informationright and heart types who over
prioritise connection can missout on other things as well. So
there's a lot. There's like amaster class that could be done
in just the importance of thesethree centres, and let alone, we
could do an hour on each of theindividual types. So somebody
(23:30):
might be listening and thinking,I've heard enough where I
related to that and I related tothat, but I'm not really sure.
How would you advise somebody tostart exploring finding their
type.
Stephanie Barron Hall (23:41):
I used to be the person who was like,
don't take a test. They're onlygoing to lead you astray. And I
have really changed my tune onthat, because it is hard for us
to really understand our thesemotivation things if we don't
have some sort of guide. And Ifind that even you know so I do
(24:03):
typing interviews where I sitdown with somebody and I ask
them the same I ask everyone thesame questions, which is
awesome, because I can then tellthem, Oh, well, fours normally
answer this question this way,and six is this way, etc. But
it's much easier for them toanswer those questions if
they've thought about thisbefore. So that's why I always
recommend starting with anassessment. My very favourite
(24:26):
one is called the compassassessment. But it is cost
prohibitive, and so there are alot of other avenues you can go.
There is an assessment in mybook, which is called Enneagram
in real life, or you I have aself typing guide that's totally
free. And then there are alsoother I mean, you can find a
billion online, and I can sendyou guys, you know, the links
(24:48):
and everything, to the ones thatI like best. So start there and
hold your results very loosely,like think of them as a
suggestion. It's not diagnosingyou. It's not. Telling you for
certain, that's your job. So youget your results. And I say,
start with the first, the topthree, and see what resonates.
(25:09):
So go and read about, you know,say your top three results are
three, seven and eight. Then yougo and read about those three
types. Kind of get a feel forthem, and then listen to podcast
interviews, watch panels onYouTube. Those pieces are really
important because, like Imentioned earlier, sometimes
(25:31):
people think, Oh, I'm half fiveand half eight. And when you
actually experience what thosetypes are really like, they're
very different. But sometimesthey get confused or same with
four and nine, people think, Oh,I'm you know, half four, half
nine, and they're verydifferent. And you can get a
feel for that a little bit morewhen you're listening to an
(25:54):
interview or watching panelliststalk about their experience.
Yeah, a little bit better.
Scott Allender (26:03):
And so touching on there is that that types do
the same things, but they do itfor different reasons, exactly.
Stephanie Barron Hall (26:12):
And so I think that's what I want to
encourage as well, is looking atthe motivational level, like,
what are the things that aredriving you forward? You know,
you might ask yourself, over mycareer, what feedback have I
gotten consistently? I see thata lot, where I see somebody
who's like, my whole career,I've been told you're really
(26:33):
hard on yourself. And there arecertain types that are that
particularly struggle with that.
And sometimes that, thatfeedback, can be really
enlightening. So yeah, read,watch and listen, and then
notice, like, Okay, what is thistelling me to do? Because that's
(26:53):
the thing we want with theEnneagram, is for it to be
practical. So we want the growthpractices. So check out some of
the growth practices and saywhich of these feel really
tricky for me? Which of them areeasy? If it's really easy,
unless you are, you know, fullyenlightened, it's probably not
going to feel really easy, andthat might not be the right type
(27:15):
for you, because for all of us,there is this real, like,
stretch that occurs when we'redoing growth aligned with our
Enneagram type, because it'suncomfortable.
Scott Allender (27:30):
Let's talk about the growth work because, you
know, that's that's anotherstandout difference of the
Enneagram compared to other sortof typologies, which a lot of
typologies will give you newadjectives to describe yourself,
right? And sort of like, Yeah,that's true. I do prefer x, or I
do prefer y, or I am kind oflike that in certain meetings.
But the Enneagram invitationactually is to learn all you can
(27:50):
about your type, all the reasonswhy you sort of identify with
that type, and how that strategysupported you to get your needs
met, but also the way that it'slimiting you. And the Enneagram
itself can serve even as a mapfor how to sort of transcend the
limitations of your type so youcan actually start to take on
more diverse perspectives. Iwant to turn to the work you're
(28:12):
doing with Fortune 500 companieslike so this is, you know,
helping them to understandpatterns in leadership. This is
a leadership podcast I'm reallyinterested in, like, the leaders
you work with, the teamdynamics, and how working with
the Enneagram can give a lot ofinsights and come back to the
growth work, right? And I wantto hear like, how do you work in
(28:33):
organisations? To not onlypresent this information, help
people to understand theirdifferences, appreciate their
differences, cultivate somecuriosity, hopefully, and
understanding the empathybetween the differences, but
then also the growth work. Yeah,
Stephanie Barron Hall (28:49):
I will say I've worked with a lot of
teams who are in kind of thatmessy middle of like they've
been around together for awhile, and things are feeling
like they're not going verywell. And I think the Enneagram
can be so helpful in thosetimes, because my angle with it
is really, I really want to keepit practical, because I do want
(29:11):
people to use it, so I talkabout it through the lens of
communication. So how I normallyframe this is say I'm the type
of person who, when I'm angry, Iget silent, and I go into a
meeting and my colleague issilent, and I start assigning my
(29:33):
motivation to their behaviour.
So my motivation of being angry,I'm like they're silent. So they
must be have the same motivationas me, so they must be angry,
and then we don't realise it,because we try to be emotionally
mature and thoughtfulindividuals, but we start being
defensive, maybe a little short,maybe avoiding that person, and
that's where so muchmiscommunication can happen,
(29:54):
whereas if you think, Okay, Ihave my own motivation and. They
have theirs. So let me just staycurious. You could figure out,
actually, they're having a badday, they're tired, they're just
thinking. They're processing.
There's so many other thingsthat could be happening for that
person, other than the singularmotivation we ascribe to them.
(30:16):
And then if you kind of zoom outfrom that and think about it
through the Enneagram lens, youcan realise, oh, they're not
trying to drive me crazy. Likethere is a reason why they feel
this is the best way to moveforward. Like sometimes with
sixes on the team, sixes ask alot of questions. And so because
(30:39):
they have these real concerns,that they think that, that they
believe in, and they're right,that they need to be attended
to. And so they're testing andquestioning all these things.
But it's not out of competition.
But then you you've got othertypes, like threes or eights who
perceive that as them justtrying to compete for
leadership. And that's wherethings get all mired in all this
(31:01):
drama and all that kind ofstuff. And so when I'm working
with teams, I like to encourageeveryone to look at their own
shadows or their own blind spotsand to focus more on the
positives from other people,because I don't want people
creating an unsafe workenvironment by, like, depleting
(31:23):
psychological safety by justbeing accusatory with the
Enneagram, right? Yeah, so. Butwhen they're looking at their
own stuff, they say, Okay, thisis how this is coming across, or
this is what I'm meaning, andthis is, you know, what I'm
actually sharing or being reallyclear with other people. This is
(31:47):
how it works best to communicatewith me. And when I say this,
that often gets misunderstood,and I want to clarify that, so
just helping people to open upsome of those conversations and
be a lot more clear about them.
And it can be really useful withleaders, because I think, you
(32:09):
know, what I really like to dois interview everyone on the
team, and then, you know, dosome coaching with the leader
and for them to learn, like, Oh,I thought I that it was having x
impact and was having y impact,and helping them to understand
how they could get the effectthat they're wanting. And
(32:34):
normally, there is an Enneagramexplanation for it, right? And
so helping, helping them work onokay, if I'm a three, and I've
seen this many times, a threeleader who is running their
people ragged, yeah, becausethey have such high
expectations, or a seven leaderwho's like, who can't say, No,
(32:59):
we can't take on any moreprojects, and just gets so
excited and wants to do allthese different interesting
things. And then when theirpeople are stressed, they say,
Okay, let's just re scope. Sothey they re scope every
project, but they have the sameamount of projects, so people
aren't getting any relief. Sothose are kind of some of the
things that I work through. AndI feel like that was like a
(33:20):
meandering explanation, but it'sit's so individualised, but yet,
the Enneagram material that I'mdelivering is consistent, and
every time it works, and thatalways blows me away. Yeah,
Scott Allender (33:37):
yeah, same I feel like when I work with
teams, you know, it's theresults you see are always the
reward, right? Because the stuffis just like it repeats itself,
and the patterns are showing upand at different teams,
different cultures, differentdynamics, but it all kind of
shows up in the same way. So youmentioned, like the example with
(33:58):
the sevens and the threes andsevens and eights, I think you
said, and the sort of interplaywith a six who might be
contrarian and asking questionsand shining doubt, it's, you
know, my invitation to thoseleaders are, that's exactly who
you need in a room. You've gotto stop stacking the room with
three sevens and eights who aregoing to get into action so
quickly that maybe they aren'tseen around corners, right? And
(34:19):
sixes need a little bit more ofthe opposite, right? If they're
a six leader who's sort ofgetting paralysed by gosh, I'm
not certain. I have no certaintyhere, right? I don't want to
take a risk, because what if therisk produces catastrophe? And
now I'm worried about that. Soit's also, I think, organising
your teams and your meetings andyour strategy sessions with
making sure you've got all theperspectives from what those
(34:41):
gifts of those types bring, asopposed to our tendency, which
is to avoid the types thatirritate us because they're not
like us, right, right?
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:49):
And I've created a framework around that
to help people understand this,so it's like a car analogy. So
we have the gas the types thatare like we're just. To go, and
we can figure it out along theway. So three, seven and eight,
and then the breaks. And Ipeople sometimes in these type
(35:11):
groups, don't like being calledthe breaks, but I still call
them that, because it's like, soone, five and six, and these are
the types that are like, we aregoing to go off a cliff. We need
to navigate this turn like,let's slow down a bit. Like,
let's figure out, you know, whatwe're going to do. Do we
actually have capacity for this?
So those sorts of questions,three sevens and eights do not
(35:33):
think, do I have capacity forthis? And then endless capacity?
Yeah, and that actually turnsout to not be humanly possible,
right? And then the alignment,which are two, four and nine,
and they're very people orientedtypes, and they're asking, are
all the wheels pointing the samedirection? Like Are we all on
the same page? And I think thatusing this framework has really
(35:57):
helped me work with teams who,especially in corporate America,
sometimes there is that presumedhierarchy of like, well, threes
and sevens and eights are thebest because they move the
fastest or whatever, and helpingpeople to grasp that we all need
all These different voices inthe room. Yeah,
Scott Allender (36:21):
yeah. Well, that's, yeah, you're touching
on, you know, especially forthrees in Western culture,
right? That sort of endlesscapacity, work myself to death
and work my team to death oftengets rewarded because they're
tireless. They'll sleep whenthey're dead, right? They just
keep going, right? But it's notsustainable. So how do you use
the Enneagram with teams? Or doyou for I mean, you're touching
(36:42):
on this and your answersalready, but do you ever like
approach this with anintentional focus on Team
sustainability and well being?
And is there any sort of some, Iknow, there's a lot of leaders
that I talk to that, you know,they're all on the not all, but
so many leaders are on the vergeof burning out, right? And they
feel like their teams areburning out and well being.
Initiatives and organisationsare often bolted onto the side
(37:03):
and they're not baked into thework that we do. Any other
thoughts you might have on how ateam might work with a leader
might work with this system forthe purposes of achieving
sustainable well being?
Stephanie Barron Hall (37:18):
Yeah, I think the thing that I like to
point to is that, admittedly,it's been a little while now
since I did my graduate degree,but there's all this research
about how intent to turn overdecreases when people feel
understood by their manager andthey feel like, okay, my manager
(37:41):
supports me. And I think thatthat is so important for people
to recognise, because theEnneagram is one of those ways
for people to feel moreunderstood, especially if it's
used with, you know, humilityand like, thoughtfulness. And I
think that's also one of thereasons why more companies
(38:03):
should invest in tools like theEnneagram, because turnover is
very expensive. So if they candecrease the desire for people
to leave, because there's thatold, old adage that you know,
you've heard a million times,people don't leave companies,
they leave managers, right? So Ithink a supportive person in
(38:23):
that role can go a long way. So,and I really believe, and I've
seen this play out, that if,even if somebody doesn't feel
totally understood, if they feellike their manager is really
trying to understand them, thatgoes a long way. And then also,
in general, we spend so much ofour time at work or on work zoom
(38:46):
calls, you know, whatever thecase may be. And if we can
improve mental health there,then that improves us overall.
Yeah. And so creating workplaceswhere people are communicating,
well, where people are nottaking so much offence, where
people are just broadly morecompassionate toward one
(39:10):
another. I think those things goa long way. And, you know,
there's also the research aroundburnout being more about like
creating meaning sometimes cancan be more useful than, like,
just decreasing what you'redoing, like, the amount of hours
you're working. And so sometimesI think meaningful connections
(39:31):
can guard against it. Now, yeah,does that solve
Scott Allender (39:34):
it? I agree, yeah. No, it's brilliant.
Sara Deschamps (39:40):
If the conversations we've been having
on The Evolving Leader havehelped you in any way, please
share this episode with yournetwork friends and family.
Thank you so much for listening.
Now let's get back to theconversation.
Scott Allender (39:52):
Let's turn to your book, because I really have
to commend you again. I thinkyou've done this incredible.
Job. You know, you wrote, it'scalled Enneagram in real life,
and so you've done thisbrilliant job of being really
practical. And everything you'vebeen saying in this conversation
emphasises the pragmatic, butyou've done it in a way that is
(40:14):
still so engaging, right? It'sso like in I read every page,
and as I was going through it,I'm just like, I am drawn into
this. It's not written like atextbook, but every page is
filled with really usefulinformation. So kudos again on
that. And I wish you'd writtenyour book before I wrote mine,
because I would have written abetter book, I think, had I read
yours first honestly, but it'sit's really great. Tell me why
(40:37):
you wrote it, who it's aimed at,and you wrote another book at
the same time, didn't you?
That's coming out soon as well,which is nuts, and you as a
three I'm kind of worried thatyou've done two books at one
time. Me too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:53):
So I started writing about the
Enneagram in like around 2018 onInstagram, and around that time
is when I also started workingwith teams and small groups. And
over the years, I've gotten thesame question, which is, I know
my type now. What do I do withit? And so I really set out to
(41:14):
answer that question, and thematerial that's in the book
originally, I created like anonline course and did basically
like a group coaching cohort,and coached people through this
material, like I taught it viavideos, and then we discuss,
which was so helpful as well,because knowing what works and
(41:35):
what doesn't is really, reallyhelpful. And so it's, it's that
question of, like, what do I dowith this information that I
wanted to answer? And myperspective on the Enneagram is,
like you mentioned earlier, it'sa map, so it's telling us what
direction to go. But theEnneagram doesn't innately have,
(41:55):
like, you know, these aretherapy practices, these are
coaching practices. So I loveself help books, and so I
thought, what if I wrotesomething that feels like a self
help book that has, like, all ofthese different practices, but
(42:15):
because sometimes I'll readthem, like, for example, chatter
by Ethan cross, one of myfavourites, and I can read
through that and be like, Oh,this would be good for this
type, and this is good for thistype. But in general, most self
help books are kind of writtenfor a broad audience, but in
reality, when I read them, I'mlike, this tip is helpful for
(42:37):
this type. And so it was kind ofa way for me to take that
concept and write nine self helpbooks, if you will. So about 50%
of each chapter is full of like,okay, this is the description of
what this looks like. This pieceof the Enneagram that we're
exploring here. And this is howyou work on it. So really, that
(42:59):
emphasis on that. And the secondpiece of why I wrote it was, I
mentioned earlier that I dotyping interviews, and a lot of
the time, you know, I'm like,Okay, well, the evidence points
to type one, or the evidencepoints to type three. And
they're like, You know what, I'mreally not a perfectionist
enough to be a one, or I'm notsuccessful enough to be a three,
(43:22):
and it made me realise that whenpeople are getting so much of
their information in these quicklittle bite sized pieces,
whether that's on Tiktok orInstagram or wherever, they're
not getting a deep enoughunderstanding of the
underworkings of the typesthemselves to be able to
actually apply the information.
And that was stopping a lot ofpeople as well. So I really
wanted to create something thatwould have more of that depth,
so that people could then applyit, so it's kind of both of
(43:47):
those things. And thenthroughout, I just included
stories from people that Iinterviewed specifically for the
book, because I don't includeanything about my actual
coaching or typing clients, andthen stories from Team workshops
over the years. So it has a lotof little, you know, many
anecdotes. Yeah,
Scott Allender (44:09):
I'd like to come back full circle to the start of
our conversation when yourhusband introduced you to the
system that I don't know. Is heglad he introduced you to this
now? Or No, I guess if the booksells enough copies, he's right.
But, you know, you talked abouthaving some ick moments, right?
You sort of like there's becausethe Enneagram is not a system
(44:31):
designed for flattery, right?
There's positive stuff in there.
It'll point to all the ways. Imean, if, if our types didn't
serve us well and have positiveattributes, we wouldn't be sort
of stuck there, right? Theyserve us in some ways. So
there's positive stuff, butthere is that, like, non
flattering kind of, like,stories that start to come to
light, like, what's behind themotivation? What's this frame
(44:53):
I'm holding up to life? Like,why am I seeing this? What's
What's this fear in me tellingme, like, threes, you know? You
and I are both share point threeas our type, right? And I
remember when I first read that,you know, the core fear of a
three is that, apart from whatthey achieve, they have no worth
it was like a gut punch, right?
And at first I wanted to resistit and be like, that's not true.
(45:16):
That's not that would be a veryunhealthy perspective. But the
longer I sat with it, and themore I reflected on my own life,
the more I saw evidence of that,like how stopping work left me
feeling so unsettled, right?
Like I didn't know what to dowith myself at the end of the
day, when I couldn't find moreto do, right? So how did you
(45:39):
move past the ick, there's asign on your wall I'm seeing
behind you, the courage tochange the things I can like,
how did you find the courage tokeep going? Why somebody even
listening today who might havecaught a bit of an ick moment
going, Gosh, I maybe that one orthat seven, or whatever you've
described, might be me. How doHow did you find the courage?
(46:00):
What has it done for your lifeand what would be your end? Your
invitation to others?
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:05):
Yeah, I think it's the little glimpses
along the way of insight orenlightenment that are like, Oh,
that's why I do that, or, Oh,that's what I was doing. And
realising that, I think that'swhere the kind of courage to
keep going comes from, right?
Because otherwise you're like,Oh, this feels like a slog. But
(46:28):
I also think I really wanted tobe healthier for the people
around me, and I tend to be veryself critical, which three is
typically kind of are, but some,some threes aren't, but it's not
one of the types that everyone'slike, Oh, they're the most self
critical type, but we can bethat way. And I was like, How do
(46:50):
I get rid of this? Like, how doi Quiet that? And I think what
really set me on that path. Andalso the question for three is,
is, who am I, and what do I Iactually want? If I'm not
looking at everyone else to tellme what I want, what do I
(47:10):
actually want? So, um, yeah, Iwas just like, Okay, what is the
path to figure out what I want,and I learned that the way to do
that was through becoming moreaccepting of and in tune with my
emotions. And so that has been awhole thing that's been a big
(47:31):
part of the process, is becomingmore emotionally aware and
attuned and allowing space andtime for that. And it's
interesting, because now when Ido things that it's like
somebody else is telling me Ihave to do this and I don't want
to, it feels painful. And threesare kind of built to be like,
(47:55):
I'll do whatever, and it doesn'tmatter how I feel about it,
right? Yeah, like, that's ournatural mode. And so I think
that in some ways, I don't havethat anymore, and it's
interesting to kind of explorethat. But I also, you know, once
I started seeing, like, how itwas helping my relationships and
(48:19):
things like that too. I waslike, okay, that's helpful.
Scott Allender (48:24):
Yeah, yeah, I feel similar. And it's not, it's
not a straight line journeyeither, right? It's that's a lot
of it's a lot of ups and downsand two steps forward, one step
back. And it's all about being,as you say, compassionate with
yourself, curious to know more,right? Hold yourself with
compassionate curiosity and asyou go on this sort of journey.
(48:50):
Brilliant. So how do people getin touch with you if they want
to hire you for coaching orworkshops?
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:56):
Yeah, you can book a call with me on my
website, which is nine types.coand it's all spelled out. And,
yeah, I start with aconsultation call for everyone,
because I want to figure out theoutcomes that you want for your
team. And then we'll we'll gofrom there and work together.
(49:20):
And then you can also find mybook on my website, which is,
again, nine types.co and thebook is called Enneagram in real
life, and you can find itwherever books are sold,
including the audiobook, which Igot to read. Did
Scott Allender (49:32):
you do the audiobook?
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:33):
I did
Scott Allender (49:34):
Awesome. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, yeah,
folks, if you have felt a tingeof curiosity at all. And in this
conversation, I do encourage youto order Steph book straight
away, the Enneagram in reallife. And when does your next
part of the book? I don't know.
I don't know yet. I turn it. Youturn it in soon, though? Right?
(49:58):
Yeah. Yeah,
Stephanie Barron Hall (50:00):
yeah. So it's in. It's just, we'll see
what the next part of theprocess looks like.
Scott Allender (50:05):
Okay, okay.
Well, listen, get the bookeveryone. You won't regret it, I
promise you. It's, you know,when you find your type in there
and you start reading, you'regoing to not be able to put it
down, I promise you that. Andit's going to be well worth it.
And contact Steph for workingwith your teams. Steph, thanks
so much for sharing some of yourtime today and your wisdom and
your insights. We appreciate
Stephanie Barron Hall (50:27):
you.
Thanks for having me. This isreally fun, and
Scott Allender (50:31):
until next time, folks remember, the world is
evolving. Are you? You?
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.