August 3, 2025 • 70 mins
This marks another special interview for me. This episode my guess is none other than my wife Chelle, aka Mrs. ExJDub online! We have been excited to put this together for my listeners and viewers. I give my perspective of being born and raised in the Jehovah's Witness cult. Chelle offers the perspective from someone that joined as an adult. We hope you enjoy, and learn some more about us along the way.
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Episode Transcript
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UNKNOWN (00:00):
Music Music
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Ex-Jehovah's
Witness podcast.
I am Mitch.
Today is a very special day.
You all have been asking forher, and thank you for being
patient.
But my wife, Shell, a.k.a.
Mrs.
Ex-JW, is here.
(00:51):
How are you?
Good.
SPEAKER_02 (00:55):
How
SPEAKER_01 (00:55):
are you?
I'm doing well, thank you.
All right, so yeah, like I said,people have been anticipating
for this interview, so I'm gladthat we could make it happen
today.
I figured we'd start out just togive a little background about
(01:17):
you and spirituality growing upso we can just set that
platform.
OK.
SPEAKER_03 (01:27):
So growing up, I wasn't particularly religious.
My family isn't.
One of my first pictures, I'm ina little christening gown.
I got baptized when I wasnewborn, but that's it.
So grandparents aren'tparticularly religious.
(01:50):
My mom wasn't.
We did move to New Mexico when Iwas 12, I believe.
My mom got remarried and mystepdad's family, very devout
Catholics.
So that is the first time Ireally was introduced to an
organized religion.
(02:11):
Growing up, we had Bibles,talked about God, things like
that, but nothing organizeduntil Catholic church.
Went for a while.
I ended up when I was 15, movingin with my grandparents here in
Washington.
So again, no religious structurethere um i did always have a
(02:33):
need or a want to know god andlearn more about god and you
know read the bible things likethat so in high school i did go
to church for a little bit hereand there with some friends um
just uh we live in the countryit's a little country church um
went to youth group things likethat but as far as structured
(02:55):
religion nothing until I met youand started studying with
witnesses and things like that.
But there was always that needand desire to learn more about
God.
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
Okay, nice.
Okay, so that kind of set a goodfoundation for us.
And then in 2006, meet me.
And what do I tell you likeright off the bat?
SPEAKER_03 (03:25):
Right off the bat, I mean, when we met, knew we were
interested in each other andpursuing a relationship.
And you said, I really just wantto get this out there.
I grew up a Jehovah's Witness.
I'm currently disfellowshipped.
You explained what that meant.
And you said, I believe this isthe truth.
I will be an active witnessagain.
(03:48):
And you said, I hope if ourrelationship progresses, that
that is something that you wantto look into because that's what
I believe.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Yeah, and so did you have, when I mentioned Jehovah's
Witness, did you have any idea,did you have any knowledge about
them at all?
SPEAKER_03 (04:16):
Very basic as far as, you know, you go door to
door, things like that.
I had a very, bad experience.
So my oldest child's stepmom atthe time was a Jehovah's...
She said she was a Jehovah'sWitness.
(04:36):
She was a mean, horrible personto my son and said horrible
things to him.
And, you know, you're going tobe destroyed.
It's just very hateful things.
And so I was not...
thrilled because of thatsituation.
(04:57):
So I started asking youquestions.
This is what she says.
This is what she tells my son.
This is, you know, and you werelike, that's not normal.
That's not right.
Now you're just down the line.
Come to find out she said shewas a witness, but she did not
(05:18):
live that
SPEAKER_01 (05:19):
way.
SPEAKER_03 (05:20):
So...
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
yeah so you kind of had a bad taste in your mouth
but then at first i didn'treally want to answer questions
because you know it was just theguilt right talk about where you
came from but eventually istarted asking answering
questions and then like you knowthat was in 2006 fast forward to
(05:44):
about 2009 and we both talk andwe kind of like i'm telling you
i might want to start looking tosee where Kingdom Hall is at.
I know Memorial is soon.
So we figured all of that out.
We go to Memorial and how didyou meet your Bible teacher?
SPEAKER_03 (06:06):
So we walk in and now you being disfellowshipped,
you know, we walk in at the end,you know, or right before
memorials about stark so youknow since you're not supposed
to talk to anybody my bibleteacher who she comes up she
says hi she introduces herselfyou say my name is mitch i'm
(06:29):
just fellowship my wife wouldlike a bible study i'm like i
don't even what so
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
still reeling you in brother
SPEAKER_03 (06:38):
announces it's time to take your seats yep it's time
to take your seats and she hadgiven me her her card with her
name and number on it she didn'thave enough time to get any
information from me and as soonas memorial was over we were out
so she had no way to contact mebut i did contact her and i got
(07:02):
started
SPEAKER_01 (07:03):
yeah so you all are studying you you started liking
what you were hearing andenjoying it so much that how
many times were you studying?
SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
Twice a week.
SPEAKER_04 (07:17):
Most
SPEAKER_03 (07:18):
times, you know, every once in a while we'd have
to miss one, but it was abouttwice a week.
That was, let's see, April of09.
And I got baptized April of 10.
So I studied for a year withher.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Yeah.
And so you
SPEAKER_03 (07:34):
said that, sorry, it fed that desire to learn about
God.
What I enjoyed was any questionI had, well, let's see what the
Bible says.
Let's see what, you know, and sothat, it just fed that need that
I had to learn more about God.
(07:54):
Right or wrong, you know, itjust did at the time.
And as we know where we're atnow, who, do witnesses usually,
are they attracted to?
People who have trauma or peoplewho, you know, are looking for
(08:15):
something or, and you and I hadjust, you know, come out of our
first marriages.
I just, it just was right timingto.
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
Yeah, we both needed the truth.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
You're right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
So I know one thing that you were very, you felt
strongly about was you reallydidn't want to get baptized if I
wasn't reinstated yet.
And so, you know, I was.
Absolutely.
I felt like I was in a placewhere I could write a letter,
(08:57):
you know, and let them know Iwas ready because it had been
almost four years.
And so I was like, oh, I betterget myself in gear.
But it worked out.
I got reinstated.
And then you were able to getbaptized, like you said, in
April of 2010.
So yeah, it all worked out.
(09:20):
And we tried to raise our, wehave four kids together.
And we tried to raise them rightwith what we all believed in and
everything.
you're enjoying it was theresome point that you didn't feel
(09:43):
right about something orsomething that you heard uh is
our dog going crazy
SPEAKER_03 (09:52):
yes so if anybody hears um we have a puppy and
she's over here playing anddoing her own thing but she's
loud as you patata Yeah, she'ssorry.
She's distracting.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
Was there some point where you were like, this
doesn't sound right or somethingjust seemed wrong or off to you?
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
Just things like the 144,000, the governing body.
Those things never really satright.
They didn't feel right um thedisfellowshipping from from day
one when you told me you weredisfellowshipped and you
explained and i can't talk to myparents unless um you know about
(10:43):
my son you know it it was justvery that never sat right yeah i
get the reasoning you know thatthat they give but it just never
sat right
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
yeah We would talk sometimes, and I know you would
ask me a lot, like, what if oneof our kids was in that
situation?
What would you do?
And, you know, it would be hardfor me not to talk to my child.
Like, yeah.
But so you mentioned about thegoverning body.
Anything in particular that feltweird to you about the governing
(11:24):
body?
SPEAKER_03 (11:27):
Just appearance.
You've got a bunch of old whitemen.
We do have the one color inthere, but like it just felt, I
don't know.
You're telling me you guys areover all of these, what is it?
(11:49):
I think they were saying therewas like seven, 8 million
witnesses at that time.
You guys are over all of thesewitnesses.
and how do we really know that'sright how do we know that's how
it's supposed to be it justdidn't sit well and um the way
(12:11):
women are treated
SPEAKER_04 (12:12):
yeah
SPEAKER_03 (12:12):
you know it's very women can't teach women can't
get on the platform it just wasvery old school
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
yeah in fact we when you said that it made me think
about
SPEAKER_03 (12:29):
uh
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
some friends we had a couple and that was her
stickler like you know she shewas just she was a strong woman
you know like you came into thetruth as an adult and if you
remember what i'm talking aboutyou know she she was very
strong-willed strong-minded very
SPEAKER_02 (12:49):
very very i know yep
SPEAKER_01 (12:55):
but that was like She was a sweet woman, but that
was her stickler.
Coming from the world, shedidn't take any crap from men.
She had a huge problem with theheadship thing and women not
being able to do much in thecongregation.
(13:16):
That
SPEAKER_02 (13:16):
was
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
a huge issue.
Thinking back, outside lookingin, It was, you know, it's very
weird.
And I'm thinking about,sometimes I think about things I
would try to explain, how I'mtrying to explain things to you.
And like, it's, you know, nowthat I'm out, it's just weird.
And I can imagine how thatmust've looked to you, you know?
(13:41):
And like I said, we were pretty,you know, we did good.
We had four kids, took up awhole row at the kingdom hall.
SPEAKER_02 (13:53):
We did.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
And so you mentioned you had doubts.
And I've mentioned on a few ofmy videos, I had doubts, but I
couldn't.
You can't really say much tosomeone at the hall because
you're not sure how they'llreact.
But I've been clear on a coupleof videos and on the lives that
(14:15):
I've been on.
You provided me that outlet.
We would talk one-on-one, and Iwould tell you doubts I had.
or things that didn't sit rightwith me.
And, but you, I mean, and youknow, my mindset, I was just
like, oh, well, and I just keeppushing, you know, hey, this is
the organization I'm with.
(14:37):
I just have to do things forthem.
And, you know, I'm progressing,working my way to ministerial
servant and, you know, we'dpioneer sometimes.
So like the whole family, wewere all in, you know, our home,
school, the Leah, She wouldpioneer with me.
The special times that we could,like when it was like 15 hours,
(15:01):
you know, you would pioneer.
So we were, and I'm just tellingeverybody this so they know,
like we just didn't wake up onemorning, like we're tired of
doing this, but we were like allin, the whole family.
Right.
All of us.
And so I tell my experience whenI went PIMO or physically and
(15:24):
mentally out where I checked outmentally.
And it was just like in May of2023.
It's hard to believe it's beentwo years since I mentally
checked out.
Yeah.
Can you remember or pinpoint atime when you mentally checked
out where you were just goingbut in your head you're like, I
(15:44):
don't want to
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
be here?
I would say probably a littlebit before you did.
I just, I mean, you noticed Ididn't want to go in service
and, you know, just evenmeetings.
I just, I would go most times,but I just was done.
(16:09):
And
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
I was like- You see the
SPEAKER_03 (16:13):
distraction in the back?
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
You're talking and I'm watching her tail like
hypnotize me, but it's like-She's so sweet.
She's a lot.
So I guess, yeah, both of us,it's funny because we weren't,
at that time, we kind of didn'ttell each other.
(16:38):
My whole thing was I felt Ineeded to, I knew how I felt,
but I felt like I needed to juststill be a certain way and stay
on track for you all.
for you and then our two thatwere still at home.
And it's hard.
(16:59):
Do you have any thoughts oranything like how you felt that
can maybe help a listener orsomebody who's viewing it?
Because they may be goingthrough what we went through but
not really fully understandingwhat's happening.
Do you have any?
insight that you'd like toshare?
SPEAKER_03 (17:25):
I would say, okay, so if you were having these
feelings, you're questioningthings, you're questioning
yourself, is this for me?
Okay, if you were to go to anelder, which we know you
probably shouldn't, what arethey going to tell you?
You're not doing enough.
(17:46):
in service so you need to readthe bible more you need to go in
service more that's going tobuild your faith but really is
it it made me resent it morebecause that's what you know
that's what you're you're toldand so okay let me do this let
me dive in more and maybe thatwill build my faith more but it
(18:10):
didn't it just made me resent itit made me resent going to the
hall made me resent going inservice um so really i think you
need to take stock in yourselfand you know i'm a big writer
i've got paper everywhere so iwould just start writing my
(18:32):
feelings pros and cons how do ifeel and is is this for me and
then I started looking at, okay,what are my doubts?
And how can I reinforce that thegoverning body really is over
(18:56):
God's organization?
Like that's how it should be.
But guess what?
I couldn't find anythingindependent that, you know, to
reinforce what I had beentaught.
And that was, was telling meeven more that this isn't it's
not for me some people it issome people need that structured
(19:16):
organization to be good andthat's one of the reasons why i
like you said you felt you hadto stay in for us i felt i had
to stay in for our marriagebecause i don't know if you
wanted it to go this road butyou being raised a witness.
(19:39):
You were always told if you arenot in the truth, your life is
going to be horrible.
You're going to be a bad person.
You're going to give into yourfleshly desires.
You're going to, you know, youwere beaten.
That was beating your head.
So when we started, you know, Istarted studying and, you know,
(20:01):
you, you were just like, I'm abetter person in the truth.
And if I'm not in the truth,then I'm, I'm going to be a bad
person.
I won't be able to, I just, Ijust can't be a good person.
And so that, because that was inyour mindset ingrained so
(20:24):
deeply, you really thought that
SPEAKER_04 (20:27):
we did.
SPEAKER_03 (20:28):
We did go inactive a few times and you would be like,
Oh, I can't be a good personbecause I'm not going to the
hall.
Oh, um, I don't want to say itwas an excuse because it wasn't
an excuse, but it was yourmindset.
SPEAKER_04 (20:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:46):
It was your whole mindset because that's what you
were told and it was beaten intoyour head from birth basically,
because you, I mean, you were,you're born into the truth.
And so when I was done, I didn'tfeel like I could be open
because I didn't want you to toleave the truth and decide, oh,
(21:10):
I'm gonna be a horrible personnow because I'm not in the
truth.
So your mindset had to changeand it did.
But yeah, that's why I didn'tbring up that I was done because
I didn't want us to fall apartbecause you felt that you just
(21:31):
can't be a good person if you'renot going to the hall, if you're
not active.
SPEAKER_01 (21:34):
that that's a great point because um and i talked to
many who felt that same wayex-witnesses and it's like
that's just what they drill inmy head i mean you you've seen
the the parts and thewatchtower's lessons you know if
you leave jehovah's protectionand if you leave the protection
of the congregation you know youjust you you your life going to
(21:56):
crap and so that's like what wasin my head i remember telling
you like know the truth is waskeeping me good in fact like i
still struggled with it when iwalked away in december you know
and then i you know i told youthat one day like it just hit me
like you know what i'm i didn'tneed the religion it's been in
(22:20):
me all this time to be a goodperson you know vices that i
worked on like my whole life ijust felt like i just had to
stay in that religion i had tobe a part of that organization
and it would help me get themastery over that vice and yeah
the longer i was out i'm likeyou know what that's like a load
(22:44):
of crap they fed us all thoseyears like you know if you want
to do what's right yeah acontrol tactic if you want to do
what's right you'll do it itdon't matter about a religion or
anything And I had to realizethat.
But I'm glad you brought thatup, though, because that should
help ones who are having thesedoubts or feelings.
(23:07):
Honestly, like me, when I wouldhave doubts, it would scare me.
Because I'm like, oh, what typeof person am I?
I shouldn't be thinking likethis.
But they even tell us to testour faith.
But if you do it vocally, youget chastised.
Yeah, don't do it verbally.
(23:28):
Yeah, like you said, oh, youneed more service.
Oh, you need to be more regularin your meetings.
You need more personal study.
Do you read the Bible daily?
SPEAKER_03 (23:35):
It's you.
It's your problem.
You aren't doing enough.
Just crap.
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
And then I would laugh sometimes because it was
so fully ingrained in me,everyone, that every once in a
while i would kind of prod atthe fence so to speak and i
would tell her that i just don'tknow like how much longer i can
be in that religion and you knowshe would always tell me it's
(24:05):
just a part of who you are idon't see you being out of it
and but like i said i had cameup with that conclusion in my
head in may of 23 and i just mani wanted to escape so bad yeah
and it's rough going and andknowing that's not what you want
(24:26):
or you you see problems you seeholes in everything and you just
want to get out plus we had thekids and you know i'm trying to
set a good example for them ihad a bunch of stuff i was doing
it for the congregation but thenspeaking of the kids it's like
something that bothered both ofus was about our daughter um
(24:49):
especially when she went to theschool.
Because she was homeschooled,but then she started going to a
hybrid school where she would goto school twice a week and then
the other three days were fromhome.
And I think that really testedeverybody when she went to
school because of theaccusations that were made.
(25:10):
And she mentioned, you can seeon her episode, Shante, she goes
in-depth The girl she went toschool with was making
accusations.
The girl who was makingaccusations, her parents got
involved.
Did that make you feel any typeof way on how all that was
(25:32):
handled?
Did that put a bad light evenmore on the organization?
SPEAKER_03 (25:38):
Absolutely.
You said it in the episode withher.
you had to go in the closet andtell that father some things.
The mom took me out to lunch andI had to say some things like,
do not come at me.
And we are by no means thoseparents who are like, my kid
(26:01):
does nothing wrong.
My kid is perfect.
Absolutely not.
But don't come at me and sayyour daughter's doing this.
Thank you.
And this is how it started.
Your daughter's doing this.
Okay.
Thanks for letting me know.
Let me talk to her.
I talked to her.
Absolutely not.
(26:23):
You know, I believe her.
She has no reason to lie.
So I go back to parent.
Thank you.
I've taken care of it.
I've discussed it.
We're good.
And then it gets brought upagain and again, and then they
come to you, you know, and well,if you don't, if she doesn't go
to the elders, okay.
(26:43):
no it's it's ridiculous
SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
yeah it's yeah if you don't fit in
SPEAKER_03 (26:50):
with them if you don't fit in and our daughter is
different she has her ownpersonality she likes to dress a
certain way she's modest she'salways been modest but you know
they had a problem that shedresses in a lot of black and
(27:10):
red oh you're demonic
SPEAKER_04 (27:12):
like what
SPEAKER_03 (27:13):
the hell who even says that it yeah that was
definitely the push to the endfor me like I was done
SPEAKER_01 (27:24):
you you know she didn't tell me that part until
after I had left theorganization that they told her
she wears the color she wearsshe must be demonic And I almost
stopped the car in the middle oftraffic when she told me.
And I'm like, why didn't youever tell me that?
And she was like, because Ididn't want you going crazy in
(27:45):
the Kingdom Hall.
SPEAKER_03 (27:48):
Because we know you.
Ain't nobody bailing anybodyout.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
But yeah, that's the thing about that organization.
If you aren't with the statusquo, or in a certain clique,
they're gonna nitpick.
And like you said, it's onething to say, I heard this or I
saw this and then leave it atthat and let the parent handle
(28:16):
it.
But then, like you said, the momkept badgering you.
Then I guess her husband gotinvolved.
That's when he started textingme and we were looking at TV as
a family and responding in text,trying to be polite.
And then when it got to thepoint where he's trying to give
me an ultimatum, and it'snothing.
(28:38):
When you give somebody anultimatum like that, it's when
you've seen them commit a grosssin.
You know that they've committedimmorality, or you see them
smoking a cigarette, that typeof thing.
And then you say, OK, I'll giveyou this amount of time.
If you don't approach theelders, I will, because it's a
(28:59):
smidge environment in thatorganization.
But for what they were talkingabout, when he gave me an
ultimatum, like, I'm going togive you two weeks and then you
can go to the elders.
That's when I kind of I told youall, excuse me, I'll be right
back.
And I had to go into the closetand call him and say some choice
words.
And it is cool.
Me and him, we both from thesame city.
(29:20):
So it's like, you know, I gotthat West Side and it's still.
But it's crazy because.
Yeah, I know that really, Ithink for all of us, it put a
bad taste in our mouth.
Yeah.
And then another thing that Ithought about, too.
(29:44):
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
I was going to say, when she went to school and seen
the witness girls were mean,horrible, and hateful to her,
and the worldly girls who weresupposed to...
Watch out for
SPEAKER_04 (30:02):
her.
SPEAKER_03 (30:03):
Watch out for the world.
They're mean and hateful.
And they weren't.
They were more friends with herand took care of her and
protected her over the witnessgirls.
And that was definitely, and shesays it too, that was her aha
moment.
Like this organization,absolutely not for me.
(30:23):
Look at the type of friends Ihave when these worldly people
are supposed to be horrible.
And stay away from them.
No.
And they're the ones protectingher from the rumors that the
witness girls started.
SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was...
I think for all of us, yeah.
And it just brings up so manybad memories because those
girls, they really, really...
She already suffered fromanxiety.
And then...
what she went through with allof them and they're from the
(31:03):
kingdom hall like you know andshe i'll never forget we're at
the uh it would be my next tolast circuit assembly but i'm
like at the the sound board youknow and i i'm always looking at
my phone and she texts me andshe was like i'm not doing too
good like what's wrong and shesaid those girls from her school
(31:26):
like she saw them from adistance in the auditorium and
it triggered her and she justlike all this anxiety.
And I texted her back and I waslike, she said she was thinking
about going to the car.
She wanted the keys from me.
And I just told her, don't letthem get to you.
You walk with your friends.
If you see them, you look themdead in the eye and you say
(31:47):
hello.
Like they can't win.
And she texts me after thesession started.
She said, I saw so-and-so andso-and-so.
was walking with my friends ilooked them in the eye said hey
and kept walking and i was likeyou were right like you know we
don't you don't let people likebully you like that but you
(32:08):
shouldn't expect to be bulliedin the kingdom hall and and you
get that a lot and so that's whyi wanted to it made me think of
something that really reallybothered you um and i used to
feel horrible uh because wherewe are at, it is a lot different
(32:30):
from how I explained to you andthe kids, the organization that
I grew up in, the friendshipsand the bonds that I have.
I go to Chicago, Houston,Atlanta, and still be welcomed
if I was in the organization.
Here it's a little bitdifferent.
So something that really, reallybothered me, you said something
(32:50):
that how they would treat youwhen I was disfellowshipped.
SPEAKER_03 (32:56):
Yes.
So the first hall we went to,obviously everybody knew you
were disfellowshipped.
So my Bible teacher obviouslywould talk to me.
A few others would talk to mehere and there.
(33:17):
But for the most part, no oneelse would talk to me.
The times that they did...
It was to get information.
Oh, so your husband'sdisfellowshipped.
Do you know why?
And you were upfront with mebefore we ever started going to
the hall.
(33:38):
I can't talk to anybody.
They shouldn't ask why.
They shouldn't ask anything whenyou're disfellowshipped.
You don't tell anybody why.
You would already prep me.
So for them to just be like, whyis he disfellowshipped?
yeah, pretty sure you're notsupposed to ask me that.
(33:58):
I brought it up to my Bibleteacher as well.
She's like, that's nobody'sbusiness at all.
That's between him and Jehovah.
No, you don't need to tellanybody.
And it was just, it was weird.
It was very weird.
When I started studying, myBible teacher actually had
another study where Both, I'dsay about the same age.
(34:26):
Her daughter and our daughterare the same age.
So they were two.
Yeah, both the girls were two.
The way they would treat her andthe way they would treat me,
night and day, night and day.
The congregation was alwaysinviting her places and oh,
just, it was night and day.
(34:48):
And that's one thing that drewme Two, wanting to learn more.
And is you telling me about howyou grew up, about the sense of
community, the bonds that youform, like that just touched me.
And like, that's what I wanted.
(35:08):
I wanted a sense of community.
You know, let's learn about God.
Let's make these lifelongfriendships.
And I have absolutely zerofriendships from that
organization, even when I wasin.
I have two friends that I met inhigh school 30 years ago.
(35:30):
They are, to this day, still mybest friends.
They reach out to me all thetime.
We talk constantly.
Even when I was in thatreligion, I wasn't allowed to
hang out with them becausethey're worldly.
But we still talk every day.
There is no one from that cultthat would ever come close to
(35:54):
being a friend like that.
And of course now, you know,they wouldn't because I walked
away, so you're not allowed.
But yeah, no, it's...
And, you know, you and I went tovisit family down south twice.
And...
(36:15):
I see what you were saying.
The community and thefriendships, you know, we went
for mom and dad's anniversaryand friends from Chicago and
friends from Texas and Dave hadlifelong friends and you see
that and they love each otherand that is not how it was here
(36:35):
for us.
Not even close.
So I see the appeal and what yougrew up with, loving, caring,
that's not how it is here.
SPEAKER_01 (36:46):
No.
And the other thing too, we livein a city where it's not, put it
like this, it's a small city tome because of the city that I've
lived in.
But it's known as the largestcity in between Seattle and
Minneapolis.
(37:07):
like so it's a decent size so ithas about i would say in the
metro area i don't know 10 to 15congregations something like
that and i
SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
would say that
SPEAKER_01 (37:22):
yeah yeah the weird thing about being here is that
you have these huge families andmost of the people in these
congregations are like freakingrelated and so that was my joke
with everybody yeah and it'slike that in itself starts a
click.
And so we're in the differentcongregations.
(37:45):
We barely got invited places.
Oh, yeah.
Somebody I can consider a friendis an elder.
And we barely did anything.
But that's all I had.
I didn't go out with anyone.
It's basically I hung with thefamily.
Nothing like the cities thatI've lived in before.
(38:05):
So that in itself was achallenge.
That kind of showed me, for me,it opened up my eyes to like,
oh, this organization isdifferent than what I've always
thought.
Yeah, being here really openedmy eyes and made me do a lot of
thinking.
And like you said, even when wewent to Atlanta, you see how
(38:27):
like people interact with mefrom this, because it was my
parents' 45th.
went for the 45th and then wewent for the 50th anniversary
and yeah friends from the citieswe lived in traveled to be there
and you see how it was and thenwe come back home and it's like
yeah and so yeah
SPEAKER_03 (38:46):
yeah it's
SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
yeah it's funny we've all reached that point the
four of us where somethinghappened and then we became
chemo and so then to bring itall around um when did, like,
when you walked away, what,like, just walk us through that.
Like, how, how was it?
(39:11):
What made you just hit that walland be like, I'm just done.
I'm out.
SPEAKER_03 (39:18):
Just, I was like, okay, got to stay in for my
husband, you know, because,because of your mindset at that.
Well, We haven't talked.
So we should have been talkingabout it the whole time.
But so I think I have to stay tosupport my family.
I'm going to really try.
(39:41):
I'm going to try to go intoservice more.
I'm going to try to make betterfriendships.
Okay, let me go out.
And instead of waiting forpeople to invite me or include
me, let me try to include, oh,would you like, you know, let's
(40:02):
go to dinner or, you know, justtry to reach out and make
friends.
And it just, oh yeah, yeah.
You know, what do they say?
Oh yeah, let's, yep, yep.
We'll get together, we'll gettogether.
And so the few girls, the fewsisters that I had reached out
to, I'm like, okay, what if weall go out to dinner or
(40:25):
something, you know, oh yeah,yeah, yeah.
And then I find out like thenext weekend that they all did
get together and went out anddidn't even include me.
And the only reason I found outis because pictures on social
media.
And I was like, okay, got it.
(40:45):
Like, I am just done.
SPEAKER_01 (40:52):
Yeah, yeah.
At any point when you were goingto walk away, did you have those
feelings that I had?
Like, I don't know how my lifewould turn out because I'm
walking away from that religion.
Did you think like did you havethose thoughts like I did or no?
SPEAKER_03 (41:10):
I don't.
I didn't.
But I will say and I'm going tohonestly, I'm going to pretty
much guarantee this.
It's because that's all you everknew.
SPEAKER_04 (41:20):
But
SPEAKER_03 (41:21):
I had a life before being a witness.
So I knew, whereas they poundinto you, your life's going to
go to hell.
I always knew that wasn't rightbecause before I was a witness,
I didn't drink, I didn't smoke,I didn't party.
I had a child very young.
I was married very young.
(41:42):
I had a normal life.
I worked a job owned a home.
Like I had a normal damn life.
And so I was just missing what Ithought I was missing was an
organized religion.
My first husband was very, he isvery spiritual believes in God,
but is a hundred percent againstorganized religion.
(42:04):
And so I would, Oh, what if wego to church?
And he's like, yeah, if that'swhat you need, but I don't need
that to be complete.
I thought I did, but now I knowI don't.
So no, I didn't have thosebecause yeah.
And I know that's why, because Iwasn't, I knew a life outside of
(42:25):
the organization.
So it didn't worry me.
SPEAKER_01 (42:28):
That's a wonderful point because I have people
asking me like, what's thedifference?
You know, I have peopleapproaching me who don't, they
learned the truth as an adult.
And they picked my brain aboutthings coming up and being
raised in it.
And I like that you brought thatout, that we had different
(42:50):
outlooks about that.
I always felt I had to stickwith this organization, or else
my life would go into shit.
But then, like you just said,you knew how your life was
before.
becoming a witness and youweren't out there doing nothing
dumb and stupid.
It's just weird how the twomindsets, how they worked.
(43:12):
It took me a while to get towhere you were.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:17):
Yeah.
Because that's all you knew.
SPEAKER_01 (43:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, for over five decades,that's all I knew.
And all that was being drilledinto my head.
They have a lot of mind controltactics.
They're
SPEAKER_03 (43:32):
good.
They are good at what they do.
SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
Yeah, they keep you low.
SPEAKER_03 (43:38):
They want to tout
SPEAKER_01 (43:39):
that
SPEAKER_03 (43:41):
8 million.
That is 8 million people thatthey have mind control over.
They
SPEAKER_04 (43:48):
just do.
SPEAKER_03 (43:48):
And it's so organized.
And that's another thing thatdrew me like, what do you you
know what do you tell as awitness oh there's over eight
million of us worldwide we youcould go to a kingdom hall
anywhere in the world and youare going to learn the same
thing together that's how wellorganized they are it's a it's a
(44:13):
very organized cult it just isvery organized
SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
yeah now are there things now that you're out Like,
I had this realization thelonger I was out.
And we've always said, you know,it was a religion.
It's organized religion.
It's a way of life.
At what point after you left didyou realize, like, well, damn,
(44:41):
that was a cult?
SPEAKER_03 (44:47):
So I tried not to even When I left, I tried just
to not think about it, ignoreit.
You know, it was a blip on myradar, right?
But the more you start seeingthings and the more you start
talking to people and you'rejust like, they control people
(45:09):
like a cult.
And then I started thinkingabout it.
And then when you startedtalking and digging in and
realizing that, that's when Iwas like, okay, let's figure
this out.
And
SPEAKER_04 (45:25):
it's,
SPEAKER_03 (45:28):
it sucks to be like, to have a wolf holder of your
eyes.
Like I felt stupid.
I'm like, damn, because when Iwas studying a lot of people,
that's a cult, that's a cult.
And I was like, no, no, no, no,no.
And then to be like, damn, I didget taken advantage of.
I did.
ignore people, you know, andit's not a cult.
(45:51):
And then to realize I gotsuckered into that.
But you get suckered into thepromise.
Like you said, the love bombingat first and the promise and the
life that they.
They paint a good picture.
SPEAKER_01 (46:10):
Yeah.
And If I urge people, becauseyou just explained it, it made
me think of a narcissist andthat organization is very
narcissistic.
You know, love bombing and thenthey like pull out the real,
(46:33):
like who they are.
And yeah, look it up.
If you're not familiar with it,I would suggest look up
narcissism and how they roll inthe beginning.
and how they transition into thecontrol phase.
And it's the exact same thingwith the Jehovah's Witness cult.
They love bomb you.
(46:55):
And I've mentioned this before,and Michelle has seen it
firsthand.
They will treat someone who hasbeen disfellowshipped and
reinstated, they will treat themdifferently and coldly compared
to a person that just walks offthe street because they have to
love bomb and pull them in.
A disfellowship person that cameback, they just think you're
(47:18):
bad, honestly.
Being disfellowshipped twice,that's just how it is, the
reality of it.
Witnesses think you're bad, andyou're always tainted in their
eyes, but let them see a newperson.
You remember, oh my goodness,this is a good example.
Remember, and I'm not going tosay his name, but he started
(47:41):
coming to our congregation.
and he was a person of color andI picked up right away and you
know he just had a shady pastshady dealings when he started
coming to the hall and I pickedup on it right away and I'm like
he's not a good person how didthe congregation treat him like
(48:04):
how did they treat him
SPEAKER_03 (48:07):
oh They love bombing, inviting in places.
Just, they were all over him.
And he was shady.
I don't know.
I don't, how could they not see?
Yeah, he was, no, he was notokay.
And I'm sure we're talking aboutthe same person.
Remember, he couldn't rememberwhere his card was.
(48:29):
And you're like, because he'sdisfellowshipped.
But he wouldn't, he would nevertell the elders where his card
was.
Oh, I've just been inactive solong.
I don't remember the lastcongregation I went to.
It was somewhere in California.
Oh, and you're like, he'sdisfellowshipped.
SPEAKER_02 (48:48):
No, he was.
SPEAKER_01 (48:50):
Oh, but they were all over him.
Yeah, I mean, they were likejust everybody kissing his ass,
and he raised his hand like fiveor six times in a watchtower
lesson, and he's commenting, andeverybody after the meeting's
like...
Isn't he the most wonderful man?
And I'm like, the elders willcome to me asking me what I
(49:11):
thought about him.
And I'm being straight up.
I'm like, I said, I've been invarious congregations.
I know the last congregation mypublisher record card is at.
Like for him to say he don'tknow where the card is, that's
like BS.
They didn't want to believe me.
They were like, he's a lostsheep.
One elder told me he's a lostsheep and we have to receive
(49:33):
him.
pretty much telling me I need tochange my viewpoint.
So I went to another elder and Isaid, he keeps saying he don't
know where his card is, but theystill studying with him, you
know?
And I'm saying something up withit.
Like he know where his card isat.
I told the elder, I said, thenext thing he gonna do, he gonna
(49:53):
come up with a sob story and hegonna need money.
Like three weeks later, one ofthem came up to me and it was
like, he asked for some money.
He asked for a car.
I picked up my briefcase and Iwas like, I told y'all.
And I told y'all I was ready togo home.
But they treat somebody likethat better than they treated
(50:15):
this fellowship person.
And like you told me, thatreally angered me.
You said they treated you weirdand didn't talk to you.
And when I came back, some wouldtreat me differently and weird.
And that's just a stigma thatthat organization puts on
someone that's been reinstatedfrom the stage, they're like,
(50:40):
oh, we're going to welcome youback in, pick up where you left
off.
But that's not the case withthat organization.
They hold grudges.
They're judgy.
And like, yeah, the longer I'mout, I'm just like, I'm so glad
that the family is out becauselike, I can just, it's like, I'm
learning you three all over.
(51:03):
know who we really are withoutany oh yeah it's about cult
chains
SPEAKER_03 (51:10):
yep it is different
SPEAKER_01 (51:13):
and and it's just it's still something do you go
through i'll ask you thisbecause i still go through this
and i mentioned it on my liveyesterday sometimes i go to do
something or i'm thinkingsomething and then i'm like oh i
can't do that Or I'm like, oh,what if somebody see?
And I'm like, do you go throughthat?
(51:33):
I hate it.
SPEAKER_03 (51:37):
It's less and less.
But yeah.
Yeah, every once in a while.
Or music.
Music.
Music.
I'm like, ooh, I shouldn't belistening to that.
And I'm like, I can listen towhatever I want.
SPEAKER_01 (51:50):
You can finally listen to your hood mix.
Music, I
SPEAKER_03 (51:52):
would say.
Yes, I can listen to my hoodmix.
SPEAKER_01 (51:56):
Listen to your hood mix, the unedited version.
sometimes y'all sometimes shehad this mix and it was like
like i'm used to the wordsespecially because she like a
lot of it's funny i'm from thesouth and she likes a lot of the
southern rappers and so i'm i'mknowing the words and like the
version she's playing is havingthem this is why we're in and
(52:19):
i'm like we can't listen to thisi wanted to listen to it i'm
trying to set a good exampleyeah Yeah, that's a big thing
too, music.
And it's like Shantay and I,it's like we're bonding, I
guess, on the music because I'mtelling her now what I like.
(52:40):
I couldn't do that.
You know, she just thought Iwas, she told me she thought I'd
never listened to anything butjazz.
And I told her with my, how Iam, that's about the safest
thing being in the truth that Icould listen to is jazz.
And so it's just like- a wholedifferent way of life and it's
nice to see us like just beingeach who we are an individual
(53:06):
and something you asked me theother day perfect example
because it sent me in a tailspinmentally a lot of times i'm like
freaking out up here but i don'tvocalize it but remember last
weekend we were at the store andwe were looking at home
decoration and do you rememberwhat you asked me about the fall
(53:27):
You're like, would I bedecorating for something?
For a particular holiday?
SPEAKER_03 (53:38):
You cut
SPEAKER_01 (53:39):
out what?
Oh, Halloween?
Yeah.
She asked me last week, we werejust shopping and she asked me,
so are we going to decorate forHalloween?
I had a freak out moment.
And then I'm like, oh, no, we'renot in it.
Like, so if you, if you areplanning on leaving or you have
(54:02):
left, like just be prepared,like everything that they
drilled in our heads up here, ittakes a while to get rid of.
And, you know, like, like Philwas saying, it's more and more,
you can realize that it was acult.
And so do you, now you mentionedyour friends, the best friends
(54:23):
from, like high school, have youtold them that you're not in
that cult anymore?
SPEAKER_03 (54:31):
Oh, everybody knows and everybody is happy.
So I've been able to tell themhappy birthday.
I've been able to give thempresents for Christmas and for
their birthdays.
And yeah, planning on getting atattoo with one of them.
So yeah, it's...
(54:53):
Yeah.
They're happy.
SPEAKER_01 (54:57):
That's good.
SPEAKER_03 (54:58):
And they both said that I seem different and I seem
happier
SPEAKER_01 (55:02):
now.
SPEAKER_03 (55:03):
And I truly feel at ease and I feel happy.
You've talked about it manytimes.
They just beat you down in thatcult because you're never good
enough.
If you're going out in serviceevery Saturday, that's still not
enough because now you can...
put some time in during the weekare you pioneering why aren't
(55:24):
you auxiliary pioneering youknow it no matter what you do
it's not good enough and thatkeeps you down and that's it's
just not a way to live and so tohave two people who've known me
longer than anyone in my lifebesides family obviously to know
(55:45):
me before during and now afterthey can both see it and they're
like now you're who you knowyou're back
SPEAKER_04 (55:58):
to
SPEAKER_03 (55:59):
who you were before
SPEAKER_04 (56:00):
yeah
SPEAKER_03 (56:01):
but i thought i was living my best life ever and i
wasn't
SPEAKER_01 (56:06):
yeah and we we thought we were happy it's just
a tactic to keep you down yeahwe we we really
SPEAKER_03 (56:13):
did
SPEAKER_01 (56:13):
honestly i think a big part of that is because of
like who we are as a couple wewere able to work through a lot
of bullshit together because I'mtalking to a lot that they might
want to be out, but their mateisn't.
It's broken up their marriagebecause of this, but it's like
(56:36):
us.
We were always on the same trainof thought, especially when we
would share intimately aboutdoubts we had and things like
that.
It's nice to have someone withyou that's bouncing thoughts,
you know, off of each otherwith.
And yeah, I can tell you'rehappier too.
(56:59):
Like, and I'm sure your friendscan, cause like you said that
you can tell them happy birthdayagain.
And then I just think you, likeyou even saying that I'm like,
man, that's just like hearingthings we used to do is so
cringy to me now.
you know, and you're saying, Ican tell them happy birthday
now.
Or like, and I'm like, oh mygoodness, we were some weird ass
people, you know?
SPEAKER_03 (57:22):
Right?
We were weird.
The one that kills me.
And I still, I still don't.
So if somebody sneezes, what doyou say?
Well, as a witness, we don't sayanything.
We just stand there lookingstupid.
When the whole world, oh, blessyou, bless you.
So now if someone sneezes, I'mlike, I can't say it yet.
(57:47):
It just feels weird.
SPEAKER_01 (57:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (57:50):
But before, I said it all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (57:52):
Yeah, I've had people even ask me, you're not
going to say bless you?
I'll be like, no.
I'm like, damn, I seem like anasshole.
SPEAKER_00 (58:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (58:09):
Yeah, I am happy to be out of it.
And I'm happy that we all, and alot of people express this,
they've had to leave familybecause they don't want to leave
that religion.
My heart goes out to everybodywho has to leave family, but
(58:31):
they do express they are happythat all four of us left
together.
I wouldn't want to say I wouldtake that statement for granted.
I would say I didn't trulyunderstand it.
When I first came into contactwith a lot of ex-Jehovah's
Witnesses and they would say,it's nice that the four of y'all
(58:52):
could leave together.
Now I'm seeing what they meanbecause I talked to so many
people.
I was talking to a gentlemanlast night and he was like,
yeah, my wife and kids wanted tostay Witnesses, so I'm alone.
And Yeah, it's likeheartbreaking.
But that's why, you know, youand I are trying to do what
we're trying to do with thisplatform to just have a place
(59:18):
that ex Jehovah's Witnesses canlike have that love, care, the
friendship, the camaraderie.
We were talking on my liveyesterday and a lot of us feel
the same way that we feel morelove and care away from the
organization now than we didwhile we were active witnesses.
(59:43):
Do you feel that way?
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (59:47):
definitely.
Yeah.
When you go through something sotraumatic, you have that bond
with people.
And so I think that's why we areall drawn to each other and We
understand.
We understand the trauma.
(01:00:07):
We see the organization for whatit is.
And we can be loving and caringto each other coming from that
same place, even thougheverybody's story is totally
different.
But the common thread is whatthat organization has done to us
(01:00:30):
or people we know, love, andcare about.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:34):
yeah and and yeah we all go our different paths and
you know our key is to me thislike should be number one our
kids and it's like shantaementioned in her episode how you
know like her her sexuality youknow what she prefers and she's
(01:00:55):
by and it's like we could seeyou and i could see kind of like
the tendency of her going thatway And even as an active
witness, I was always in myhead.
Like, what will I do?
You know, when it comes out,what am I going to do?
And we've talked about it a fewtimes, but this is.
(01:01:16):
It's just not in me to turn myback on the key.
You know, like and so it wouldhave I would have been put out
anyway.
So, yeah, I saved up a step.
So if you could, if somebody iswatching this who is thinking
(01:01:41):
about it, but they are afraidbecause of things that we've
talked about, like, you know,what will my life be like?
I won't have a support system.
Many people say this.
They were held back because theydidn't have a support system
outside of the kingdom hall.
They didn't know anybody else,wasn't friends with anyone else,
(01:02:02):
but they know that this wasn'tright.
The organization wasn't right.
They didn't like things theysaw, especially about the CSA
going on in the organization andpredators being hidden.
They knew they wanted to getout, but they just don't have
anyone.
They're afraid.
What will my life look like ifI'm not a witness?
What would you say to thatperson?
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:27):
There is...
I did not know until you starteddoing your research, there is a
huge, huge ex Jehovah's Witnesscommunity that is here for
support.
TikTok, Facebook, Instagram,social media, you know, in
general, there is just a hugesupport system.
(01:02:52):
And that's what you and I wantto be.
people because everybody's got astory and when you're and we
know how the witnesses are youdon't mingle with the world so
you likely work with a bunch ofwitnesses you know that that's
your whole world so to leavethat is incredibly scary but i
(01:03:15):
promise you will be happier thanstaying where you're at and You
can build your life to bewhatever.
There's no limits.
You can build your life to bewhatever you want it to be.
You're not going to become adrug addict and live on the
street.
It's just a scare tactic.
(01:03:35):
You can do all the hard thingsthat you think are hard.
You can do it, and you should doit.
If you are truly questioning itand see this cult for what it
is, Don't be a part of itanymore.
You know, you're giving them thepower.
(01:03:56):
You've got to take your powerback and it's going to be scary,
but there's a huge supportsystem.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04:03):
Yeah.
Yep.
Thank you for bringing all thatout because they, that's part of
what they don't want us to knowwhen we're in that there are so
many of us out there.
That's why they're trying tokeep people off the internet.
Yeah.
because we're out there and evenyou know like uh shell said you
(01:04:28):
have a community online ofex-jehovah's witnesses but like
there are groups that want to domeetups and they they are doing
meetups i can't go to one it'sone this month and i i can't go
to it and i told the the guythat was getting it together you
know i felt bad i couldn't comebecause so many want to meet me
(01:04:49):
but it's like that's apossibility too it's not all
online but some groups even meetface to face and and it's don't
feel like you're all alonethat's what they want you to
feel you know you're not goingto have me in the world your
family is all at the kingdomhall why don't you leave like
(01:05:10):
that's another scare tactic,like Cheryl was saying.
So yes, it's great to be free,you know?
And I like that we can do thisbecause people can see from two
different perspectives, somebodywho came into it, you're early
30s, and then someone who wasborn into it, you know?
(01:05:34):
And our story isn't, it's like,not normal because usually
someone who's out don't meetsomeone and they come into into
the religion so our story wasright right yeah but it's like i
don't know i'm just happy we meteach other when we when i was
(01:05:54):
out we've been in the truthtogether and now we have a life
away from it and you know like ijust feel It'll be even better
now because both of us are freefrom that aspect of being in a
cult and everything.
But yeah, we will do a lot moretogether, Steele and I.
(01:06:20):
She started her account.
What's your account?
It might be close to you.
On IG and TikTok, your username.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06:35):
You froze, babe.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06:39):
I said, let them know you're on TikTok and
Instagram.
I said, what's your ID?
I said, it may be close to you.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06:48):
Yes.
It may be close to me.
TikTok and Instagram, I don'thave a Facebook page for it, but
yes, mrs.xjdub.
TikTok and Instagram.
So I will definitely be moreactive as well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:09):
Yeah.
So you all go, you know, showher some love on her accounts on
TikTok and Instagram.
I had mixed emotions when shedid it because I'm always
protective of my family.
And I'm like, man, if a witnessstepped to her the wrong way.
(01:07:30):
But I know she's an adult andcan handle herself.
SPEAKER_03 (01:07:34):
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:35):
But yeah, they just better not step the wrong way.
But no, I'm happy that you arehere.
SPEAKER_03 (01:07:45):
So far, I haven't had any...
I have witnesses friending me.
Hello, sister.
I'm like, you just really don'tpay any attention, do you?
They don't.
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:55):
They don't.
All I see is they don't.
SPEAKER_03 (01:07:57):
I'm like, okay, you want to be on my page.
Cool.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08:01):
I can't even tell you how many witnesses I have on
my page.
And then it'll click, andthey'll see a post.
Why did you post this?
And I was like, go look at myname.
It's an EX in front of it.
And they go, oh.
SPEAKER_03 (01:08:17):
Right.
Like, it's,
SPEAKER_01 (01:08:18):
yeah, it's crazy.
Yeah, but we'll, Michelle and I,we have plans.
We are going to be doing more,especially these where we will
probably like dive into aparticular subject together and
discuss it as a couple and likewe have a lot of things planned
(01:08:40):
she's helping me like figure outwhat i've made the post about uh
you know having a website for usand a talk forum and loading up
videos of interviews ofex-witnesses because we all tell
a different story and yeah solook for big things from us uh
(01:09:03):
thank you for being here shale iappreciate you
SPEAKER_02 (01:09:07):
of course
SPEAKER_01 (01:09:09):
it's nice to keep learning more and more about you
as we uh since we left that cultand uh yeah so i thank you all
for uh tuning in and watchingyou all know you can find me on
uh man everything reallyfacebook everywhere yeah
(01:09:32):
instagram twitter youtube umreddit x j dub you type that in
and it should should pull me upso i thank you all for your
support we
SPEAKER_04 (01:09:45):
have our group on facebook too
SPEAKER_01 (01:09:47):
oh thank you oh my god look at that thank you see
that's why you're the producerlook at that x oh you see yeah
so
SPEAKER_04 (01:09:57):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (01:09:57):
yeah see yeah the xjw network on facebook is a
private group the witnessescan't get in to bother us like
either uh shell and myself areapproving people when they
request to come in so yes yeahit's it's a nice place that we
talk freely the private facebookgroup thank you for reminding me
see that's why you're theproducer now i owe you a coffee
SPEAKER_03 (01:10:20):
there we go oh perfect i'm almost out
SPEAKER_01 (01:10:26):
Oh, my goodness.
All right.
Well, thank you.
And I will talk to you soon.
All right.
Bye,
SPEAKER_04 (01:10:34):
everybody.
Music Music
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Ex-Jehovah's
Witness podcast.
I am Mitch.
Today is a very special day.
You all have been asking forher, and thank you for being
patient.
But my wife, Shell, a.k.a.
Mrs.
Ex-JW, is here.
(00:51):
How are you?
Good.
SPEAKER_02 (00:55):
How
SPEAKER_01 (00:55):
are you?
I'm doing well, thank you.
All right, so yeah, like I said,people have been anticipating
for this interview, so I'm gladthat we could make it happen
today.
I figured we'd start out just togive a little background about
(01:17):
you and spirituality growing upso we can just set that
platform.
OK.
SPEAKER_03 (01:27):
So growing up, I wasn't particularly religious.
My family isn't.
One of my first pictures, I'm ina little christening gown.
I got baptized when I wasnewborn, but that's it.
So grandparents aren'tparticularly religious.
(01:50):
My mom wasn't.
We did move to New Mexico when Iwas 12, I believe.
My mom got remarried and mystepdad's family, very devout
Catholics.
So that is the first time Ireally was introduced to an
organized religion.
(02:11):
Growing up, we had Bibles,talked about God, things like
that, but nothing organizeduntil Catholic church.
Went for a while.
I ended up when I was 15, movingin with my grandparents here in
Washington.
So again, no religious structurethere um i did always have a
(02:33):
need or a want to know god andlearn more about god and you
know read the bible things likethat so in high school i did go
to church for a little bit hereand there with some friends um
just uh we live in the countryit's a little country church um
went to youth group things likethat but as far as structured
(02:55):
religion nothing until I met youand started studying with
witnesses and things like that.
But there was always that needand desire to learn more about
God.
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
Okay, nice.
Okay, so that kind of set a goodfoundation for us.
And then in 2006, meet me.
And what do I tell you likeright off the bat?
SPEAKER_03 (03:25):
Right off the bat, I mean, when we met, knew we were
interested in each other andpursuing a relationship.
And you said, I really just wantto get this out there.
I grew up a Jehovah's Witness.
I'm currently disfellowshipped.
You explained what that meant.
And you said, I believe this isthe truth.
I will be an active witnessagain.
(03:48):
And you said, I hope if ourrelationship progresses, that
that is something that you wantto look into because that's what
I believe.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Yeah, and so did you have, when I mentioned Jehovah's
Witness, did you have any idea,did you have any knowledge about
them at all?
SPEAKER_03 (04:16):
Very basic as far as, you know, you go door to
door, things like that.
I had a very, bad experience.
So my oldest child's stepmom atthe time was a Jehovah's...
She said she was a Jehovah'sWitness.
(04:36):
She was a mean, horrible personto my son and said horrible
things to him.
And, you know, you're going tobe destroyed.
It's just very hateful things.
And so I was not...
thrilled because of thatsituation.
(04:57):
So I started asking youquestions.
This is what she says.
This is what she tells my son.
This is, you know, and you werelike, that's not normal.
That's not right.
Now you're just down the line.
Come to find out she said shewas a witness, but she did not
(05:18):
live that
SPEAKER_01 (05:19):
way.
SPEAKER_03 (05:20):
So...
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
yeah so you kind of had a bad taste in your mouth
but then at first i didn'treally want to answer questions
because you know it was just theguilt right talk about where you
came from but eventually istarted asking answering
questions and then like you knowthat was in 2006 fast forward to
(05:44):
about 2009 and we both talk andwe kind of like i'm telling you
i might want to start looking tosee where Kingdom Hall is at.
I know Memorial is soon.
So we figured all of that out.
We go to Memorial and how didyou meet your Bible teacher?
SPEAKER_03 (06:06):
So we walk in and now you being disfellowshipped,
you know, we walk in at the end,you know, or right before
memorials about stark so youknow since you're not supposed
to talk to anybody my bibleteacher who she comes up she
says hi she introduces herselfyou say my name is mitch i'm
(06:29):
just fellowship my wife wouldlike a bible study i'm like i
don't even what so
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
still reeling you in brother
SPEAKER_03 (06:38):
announces it's time to take your seats yep it's time
to take your seats and she hadgiven me her her card with her
name and number on it she didn'thave enough time to get any
information from me and as soonas memorial was over we were out
so she had no way to contact mebut i did contact her and i got
(07:02):
started
SPEAKER_01 (07:03):
yeah so you all are studying you you started liking
what you were hearing andenjoying it so much that how
many times were you studying?
SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
Twice a week.
SPEAKER_04 (07:17):
Most
SPEAKER_03 (07:18):
times, you know, every once in a while we'd have
to miss one, but it was abouttwice a week.
That was, let's see, April of09.
And I got baptized April of 10.
So I studied for a year withher.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Yeah.
And so you
SPEAKER_03 (07:34):
said that, sorry, it fed that desire to learn about
God.
What I enjoyed was any questionI had, well, let's see what the
Bible says.
Let's see what, you know, and sothat, it just fed that need that
I had to learn more about God.
(07:54):
Right or wrong, you know, itjust did at the time.
And as we know where we're atnow, who, do witnesses usually,
are they attracted to?
People who have trauma or peoplewho, you know, are looking for
(08:15):
something or, and you and I hadjust, you know, come out of our
first marriages.
I just, it just was right timingto.
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
Yeah, we both needed the truth.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
You're right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
So I know one thing that you were very, you felt
strongly about was you reallydidn't want to get baptized if I
wasn't reinstated yet.
And so, you know, I was.
Absolutely.
I felt like I was in a placewhere I could write a letter,
(08:57):
you know, and let them know Iwas ready because it had been
almost four years.
And so I was like, oh, I betterget myself in gear.
But it worked out.
I got reinstated.
And then you were able to getbaptized, like you said, in
April of 2010.
So yeah, it all worked out.
(09:20):
And we tried to raise our, wehave four kids together.
And we tried to raise them rightwith what we all believed in and
everything.
you're enjoying it was theresome point that you didn't feel
(09:43):
right about something orsomething that you heard uh is
our dog going crazy
SPEAKER_03 (09:52):
yes so if anybody hears um we have a puppy and
she's over here playing anddoing her own thing but she's
loud as you patata Yeah, she'ssorry.
She's distracting.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
Was there some point where you were like, this
doesn't sound right or somethingjust seemed wrong or off to you?
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
Just things like the 144,000, the governing body.
Those things never really satright.
They didn't feel right um thedisfellowshipping from from day
one when you told me you weredisfellowshipped and you
explained and i can't talk to myparents unless um you know about
(10:43):
my son you know it it was justvery that never sat right yeah i
get the reasoning you know thatthat they give but it just never
sat right
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
yeah We would talk sometimes, and I know you would
ask me a lot, like, what if oneof our kids was in that
situation?
What would you do?
And, you know, it would be hardfor me not to talk to my child.
Like, yeah.
But so you mentioned about thegoverning body.
Anything in particular that feltweird to you about the governing
(11:24):
body?
SPEAKER_03 (11:27):
Just appearance.
You've got a bunch of old whitemen.
We do have the one color inthere, but like it just felt, I
don't know.
You're telling me you guys areover all of these, what is it?
(11:49):
I think they were saying therewas like seven, 8 million
witnesses at that time.
You guys are over all of thesewitnesses.
and how do we really know that'sright how do we know that's how
it's supposed to be it justdidn't sit well and um the way
(12:11):
women are treated
SPEAKER_04 (12:12):
yeah
SPEAKER_03 (12:12):
you know it's very women can't teach women can't
get on the platform it just wasvery old school
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
yeah in fact we when you said that it made me think
about
SPEAKER_03 (12:29):
uh
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
some friends we had a couple and that was her
stickler like you know she shewas just she was a strong woman
you know like you came into thetruth as an adult and if you
remember what i'm talking aboutyou know she she was very
strong-willed strong-minded very
SPEAKER_02 (12:49):
very very i know yep
SPEAKER_01 (12:55):
but that was like She was a sweet woman, but that
was her stickler.
Coming from the world, shedidn't take any crap from men.
She had a huge problem with theheadship thing and women not
being able to do much in thecongregation.
(13:16):
That
SPEAKER_02 (13:16):
was
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
a huge issue.
Thinking back, outside lookingin, It was, you know, it's very
weird.
And I'm thinking about,sometimes I think about things I
would try to explain, how I'mtrying to explain things to you.
And like, it's, you know, nowthat I'm out, it's just weird.
And I can imagine how thatmust've looked to you, you know?
(13:41):
And like I said, we were pretty,you know, we did good.
We had four kids, took up awhole row at the kingdom hall.
SPEAKER_02 (13:53):
We did.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
And so you mentioned you had doubts.
And I've mentioned on a few ofmy videos, I had doubts, but I
couldn't.
You can't really say much tosomeone at the hall because
you're not sure how they'llreact.
But I've been clear on a coupleof videos and on the lives that
(14:15):
I've been on.
You provided me that outlet.
We would talk one-on-one, and Iwould tell you doubts I had.
or things that didn't sit rightwith me.
And, but you, I mean, and youknow, my mindset, I was just
like, oh, well, and I just keeppushing, you know, hey, this is
the organization I'm with.
(14:37):
I just have to do things forthem.
And, you know, I'm progressing,working my way to ministerial
servant and, you know, we'dpioneer sometimes.
So like the whole family, wewere all in, you know, our home,
school, the Leah, She wouldpioneer with me.
The special times that we could,like when it was like 15 hours,
(15:01):
you know, you would pioneer.
So we were, and I'm just tellingeverybody this so they know,
like we just didn't wake up onemorning, like we're tired of
doing this, but we were like allin, the whole family.
Right.
All of us.
And so I tell my experience whenI went PIMO or physically and
(15:24):
mentally out where I checked outmentally.
And it was just like in May of2023.
It's hard to believe it's beentwo years since I mentally
checked out.
Yeah.
Can you remember or pinpoint atime when you mentally checked
out where you were just goingbut in your head you're like, I
(15:44):
don't want to
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
be here?
I would say probably a littlebit before you did.
I just, I mean, you noticed Ididn't want to go in service
and, you know, just evenmeetings.
I just, I would go most times,but I just was done.
(16:09):
And
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
I was like- You see the
SPEAKER_03 (16:13):
distraction in the back?
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
You're talking and I'm watching her tail like
hypnotize me, but it's like-She's so sweet.
She's a lot.
So I guess, yeah, both of us,it's funny because we weren't,
at that time, we kind of didn'ttell each other.
(16:38):
My whole thing was I felt Ineeded to, I knew how I felt,
but I felt like I needed to juststill be a certain way and stay
on track for you all.
for you and then our two thatwere still at home.
And it's hard.
(16:59):
Do you have any thoughts oranything like how you felt that
can maybe help a listener orsomebody who's viewing it?
Because they may be goingthrough what we went through but
not really fully understandingwhat's happening.
Do you have any?
insight that you'd like toshare?
SPEAKER_03 (17:25):
I would say, okay, so if you were having these
feelings, you're questioningthings, you're questioning
yourself, is this for me?
Okay, if you were to go to anelder, which we know you
probably shouldn't, what arethey going to tell you?
You're not doing enough.
(17:46):
in service so you need to readthe bible more you need to go in
service more that's going tobuild your faith but really is
it it made me resent it morebecause that's what you know
that's what you're you're toldand so okay let me do this let
me dive in more and maybe thatwill build my faith more but it
(18:10):
didn't it just made me resent itit made me resent going to the
hall made me resent going inservice um so really i think you
need to take stock in yourselfand you know i'm a big writer
i've got paper everywhere so iwould just start writing my
(18:32):
feelings pros and cons how do ifeel and is is this for me and
then I started looking at, okay,what are my doubts?
And how can I reinforce that thegoverning body really is over
(18:56):
God's organization?
Like that's how it should be.
But guess what?
I couldn't find anythingindependent that, you know, to
reinforce what I had beentaught.
And that was, was telling meeven more that this isn't it's
not for me some people it issome people need that structured
(19:16):
organization to be good andthat's one of the reasons why i
like you said you felt you hadto stay in for us i felt i had
to stay in for our marriagebecause i don't know if you
wanted it to go this road butyou being raised a witness.
(19:39):
You were always told if you arenot in the truth, your life is
going to be horrible.
You're going to be a bad person.
You're going to give into yourfleshly desires.
You're going to, you know, youwere beaten.
That was beating your head.
So when we started, you know, Istarted studying and, you know,
(20:01):
you, you were just like, I'm abetter person in the truth.
And if I'm not in the truth,then I'm, I'm going to be a bad
person.
I won't be able to, I just, Ijust can't be a good person.
And so that, because that was inyour mindset ingrained so
(20:24):
deeply, you really thought that
SPEAKER_04 (20:27):
we did.
SPEAKER_03 (20:28):
We did go inactive a few times and you would be like,
Oh, I can't be a good personbecause I'm not going to the
hall.
Oh, um, I don't want to say itwas an excuse because it wasn't
an excuse, but it was yourmindset.
SPEAKER_04 (20:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:46):
It was your whole mindset because that's what you
were told and it was beaten intoyour head from birth basically,
because you, I mean, you were,you're born into the truth.
And so when I was done, I didn'tfeel like I could be open
because I didn't want you to toleave the truth and decide, oh,
(21:10):
I'm gonna be a horrible personnow because I'm not in the
truth.
So your mindset had to changeand it did.
But yeah, that's why I didn'tbring up that I was done because
I didn't want us to fall apartbecause you felt that you just
(21:31):
can't be a good person if you'renot going to the hall, if you're
not active.
SPEAKER_01 (21:34):
that that's a great point because um and i talked to
many who felt that same wayex-witnesses and it's like
that's just what they drill inmy head i mean you you've seen
the the parts and thewatchtower's lessons you know if
you leave jehovah's protectionand if you leave the protection
of the congregation you know youjust you you your life going to
(21:56):
crap and so that's like what wasin my head i remember telling
you like know the truth is waskeeping me good in fact like i
still struggled with it when iwalked away in december you know
and then i you know i told youthat one day like it just hit me
like you know what i'm i didn'tneed the religion it's been in
(22:20):
me all this time to be a goodperson you know vices that i
worked on like my whole life ijust felt like i just had to
stay in that religion i had tobe a part of that organization
and it would help me get themastery over that vice and yeah
the longer i was out i'm likeyou know what that's like a load
(22:44):
of crap they fed us all thoseyears like you know if you want
to do what's right yeah acontrol tactic if you want to do
what's right you'll do it itdon't matter about a religion or
anything And I had to realizethat.
But I'm glad you brought thatup, though, because that should
help ones who are having thesedoubts or feelings.
(23:07):
Honestly, like me, when I wouldhave doubts, it would scare me.
Because I'm like, oh, what typeof person am I?
I shouldn't be thinking likethis.
But they even tell us to testour faith.
But if you do it vocally, youget chastised.
Yeah, don't do it verbally.
(23:28):
Yeah, like you said, oh, youneed more service.
Oh, you need to be more regularin your meetings.
You need more personal study.
Do you read the Bible daily?
SPEAKER_03 (23:35):
It's you.
It's your problem.
You aren't doing enough.
Just crap.
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
And then I would laugh sometimes because it was
so fully ingrained in me,everyone, that every once in a
while i would kind of prod atthe fence so to speak and i
would tell her that i just don'tknow like how much longer i can
be in that religion and you knowshe would always tell me it's
(24:05):
just a part of who you are idon't see you being out of it
and but like i said i had cameup with that conclusion in my
head in may of 23 and i just mani wanted to escape so bad yeah
and it's rough going and andknowing that's not what you want
(24:26):
or you you see problems you seeholes in everything and you just
want to get out plus we had thekids and you know i'm trying to
set a good example for them ihad a bunch of stuff i was doing
it for the congregation but thenspeaking of the kids it's like
something that bothered both ofus was about our daughter um
(24:49):
especially when she went to theschool.
Because she was homeschooled,but then she started going to a
hybrid school where she would goto school twice a week and then
the other three days were fromhome.
And I think that really testedeverybody when she went to
school because of theaccusations that were made.
(25:10):
And she mentioned, you can seeon her episode, Shante, she goes
in-depth The girl she went toschool with was making
accusations.
The girl who was makingaccusations, her parents got
involved.
Did that make you feel any typeof way on how all that was
(25:32):
handled?
Did that put a bad light evenmore on the organization?
SPEAKER_03 (25:38):
Absolutely.
You said it in the episode withher.
you had to go in the closet andtell that father some things.
The mom took me out to lunch andI had to say some things like,
do not come at me.
And we are by no means thoseparents who are like, my kid
(26:01):
does nothing wrong.
My kid is perfect.
Absolutely not.
But don't come at me and sayyour daughter's doing this.
Thank you.
And this is how it started.
Your daughter's doing this.
Okay.
Thanks for letting me know.
Let me talk to her.
I talked to her.
Absolutely not.
(26:23):
You know, I believe her.
She has no reason to lie.
So I go back to parent.
Thank you.
I've taken care of it.
I've discussed it.
We're good.
And then it gets brought upagain and again, and then they
come to you, you know, and well,if you don't, if she doesn't go
to the elders, okay.
(26:43):
no it's it's ridiculous
SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
yeah it's yeah if you don't fit in
SPEAKER_03 (26:50):
with them if you don't fit in and our daughter is
different she has her ownpersonality she likes to dress a
certain way she's modest she'salways been modest but you know
they had a problem that shedresses in a lot of black and
(27:10):
red oh you're demonic
SPEAKER_04 (27:12):
like what
SPEAKER_03 (27:13):
the hell who even says that it yeah that was
definitely the push to the endfor me like I was done
SPEAKER_01 (27:24):
you you know she didn't tell me that part until
after I had left theorganization that they told her
she wears the color she wearsshe must be demonic And I almost
stopped the car in the middle oftraffic when she told me.
And I'm like, why didn't youever tell me that?
And she was like, because Ididn't want you going crazy in
(27:45):
the Kingdom Hall.
SPEAKER_03 (27:48):
Because we know you.
Ain't nobody bailing anybodyout.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
But yeah, that's the thing about that organization.
If you aren't with the statusquo, or in a certain clique,
they're gonna nitpick.
And like you said, it's onething to say, I heard this or I
saw this and then leave it atthat and let the parent handle
(28:16):
it.
But then, like you said, the momkept badgering you.
Then I guess her husband gotinvolved.
That's when he started textingme and we were looking at TV as
a family and responding in text,trying to be polite.
And then when it got to thepoint where he's trying to give
me an ultimatum, and it'snothing.
(28:38):
When you give somebody anultimatum like that, it's when
you've seen them commit a grosssin.
You know that they've committedimmorality, or you see them
smoking a cigarette, that typeof thing.
And then you say, OK, I'll giveyou this amount of time.
If you don't approach theelders, I will, because it's a
(28:59):
smidge environment in thatorganization.
But for what they were talkingabout, when he gave me an
ultimatum, like, I'm going togive you two weeks and then you
can go to the elders.
That's when I kind of I told youall, excuse me, I'll be right
back.
And I had to go into the closetand call him and say some choice
words.
And it is cool.
Me and him, we both from thesame city.
(29:20):
So it's like, you know, I gotthat West Side and it's still.
But it's crazy because.
Yeah, I know that really, Ithink for all of us, it put a
bad taste in our mouth.
Yeah.
And then another thing that Ithought about, too.
(29:44):
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
I was going to say, when she went to school and seen
the witness girls were mean,horrible, and hateful to her,
and the worldly girls who weresupposed to...
Watch out for
SPEAKER_04 (30:02):
her.
SPEAKER_03 (30:03):
Watch out for the world.
They're mean and hateful.
And they weren't.
They were more friends with herand took care of her and
protected her over the witnessgirls.
And that was definitely, and shesays it too, that was her aha
moment.
Like this organization,absolutely not for me.
(30:23):
Look at the type of friends Ihave when these worldly people
are supposed to be horrible.
And stay away from them.
No.
And they're the ones protectingher from the rumors that the
witness girls started.
SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was...
I think for all of us, yeah.
And it just brings up so manybad memories because those
girls, they really, really...
She already suffered fromanxiety.
And then...
what she went through with allof them and they're from the
(31:03):
kingdom hall like you know andshe i'll never forget we're at
the uh it would be my next tolast circuit assembly but i'm
like at the the sound board youknow and i i'm always looking at
my phone and she texts me andshe was like i'm not doing too
good like what's wrong and shesaid those girls from her school
(31:26):
like she saw them from adistance in the auditorium and
it triggered her and she justlike all this anxiety.
And I texted her back and I waslike, she said she was thinking
about going to the car.
She wanted the keys from me.
And I just told her, don't letthem get to you.
You walk with your friends.
If you see them, you look themdead in the eye and you say
(31:47):
hello.
Like they can't win.
And she texts me after thesession started.
She said, I saw so-and-so andso-and-so.
was walking with my friends ilooked them in the eye said hey
and kept walking and i was likeyou were right like you know we
don't you don't let people likebully you like that but you
(32:08):
shouldn't expect to be bulliedin the kingdom hall and and you
get that a lot and so that's whyi wanted to it made me think of
something that really reallybothered you um and i used to
feel horrible uh because wherewe are at, it is a lot different
(32:30):
from how I explained to you andthe kids, the organization that
I grew up in, the friendshipsand the bonds that I have.
I go to Chicago, Houston,Atlanta, and still be welcomed
if I was in the organization.
Here it's a little bitdifferent.
So something that really, reallybothered me, you said something
(32:50):
that how they would treat youwhen I was disfellowshipped.
SPEAKER_03 (32:56):
Yes.
So the first hall we went to,obviously everybody knew you
were disfellowshipped.
So my Bible teacher obviouslywould talk to me.
A few others would talk to mehere and there.
(33:17):
But for the most part, no oneelse would talk to me.
The times that they did...
It was to get information.
Oh, so your husband'sdisfellowshipped.
Do you know why?
And you were upfront with mebefore we ever started going to
the hall.
(33:38):
I can't talk to anybody.
They shouldn't ask why.
They shouldn't ask anything whenyou're disfellowshipped.
You don't tell anybody why.
You would already prep me.
So for them to just be like, whyis he disfellowshipped?
yeah, pretty sure you're notsupposed to ask me that.
(33:58):
I brought it up to my Bibleteacher as well.
She's like, that's nobody'sbusiness at all.
That's between him and Jehovah.
No, you don't need to tellanybody.
And it was just, it was weird.
It was very weird.
When I started studying, myBible teacher actually had
another study where Both, I'dsay about the same age.
(34:26):
Her daughter and our daughterare the same age.
So they were two.
Yeah, both the girls were two.
The way they would treat her andthe way they would treat me,
night and day, night and day.
The congregation was alwaysinviting her places and oh,
just, it was night and day.
(34:48):
And that's one thing that drewme Two, wanting to learn more.
And is you telling me about howyou grew up, about the sense of
community, the bonds that youform, like that just touched me.
And like, that's what I wanted.
(35:08):
I wanted a sense of community.
You know, let's learn about God.
Let's make these lifelongfriendships.
And I have absolutely zerofriendships from that
organization, even when I wasin.
I have two friends that I met inhigh school 30 years ago.
(35:30):
They are, to this day, still mybest friends.
They reach out to me all thetime.
We talk constantly.
Even when I was in thatreligion, I wasn't allowed to
hang out with them becausethey're worldly.
But we still talk every day.
There is no one from that cultthat would ever come close to
(35:54):
being a friend like that.
And of course now, you know,they wouldn't because I walked
away, so you're not allowed.
But yeah, no, it's...
And, you know, you and I went tovisit family down south twice.
And...
(36:15):
I see what you were saying.
The community and thefriendships, you know, we went
for mom and dad's anniversaryand friends from Chicago and
friends from Texas and Dave hadlifelong friends and you see
that and they love each otherand that is not how it was here
(36:35):
for us.
Not even close.
So I see the appeal and what yougrew up with, loving, caring,
that's not how it is here.
SPEAKER_01 (36:46):
No.
And the other thing too, we livein a city where it's not, put it
like this, it's a small city tome because of the city that I've
lived in.
But it's known as the largestcity in between Seattle and
Minneapolis.
(37:07):
like so it's a decent size so ithas about i would say in the
metro area i don't know 10 to 15congregations something like
that and i
SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
would say that
SPEAKER_01 (37:22):
yeah yeah the weird thing about being here is that
you have these huge families andmost of the people in these
congregations are like freakingrelated and so that was my joke
with everybody yeah and it'slike that in itself starts a
click.
And so we're in the differentcongregations.
(37:45):
We barely got invited places.
Oh, yeah.
Somebody I can consider a friendis an elder.
And we barely did anything.
But that's all I had.
I didn't go out with anyone.
It's basically I hung with thefamily.
Nothing like the cities thatI've lived in before.
(38:05):
So that in itself was achallenge.
That kind of showed me, for me,it opened up my eyes to like,
oh, this organization isdifferent than what I've always
thought.
Yeah, being here really openedmy eyes and made me do a lot of
thinking.
And like you said, even when wewent to Atlanta, you see how
(38:27):
like people interact with mefrom this, because it was my
parents' 45th.
went for the 45th and then wewent for the 50th anniversary
and yeah friends from the citieswe lived in traveled to be there
and you see how it was and thenwe come back home and it's like
yeah and so yeah
SPEAKER_03 (38:46):
yeah it's
SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
yeah it's funny we've all reached that point the
four of us where somethinghappened and then we became
chemo and so then to bring itall around um when did, like,
when you walked away, what,like, just walk us through that.
Like, how, how was it?
(39:11):
What made you just hit that walland be like, I'm just done.
I'm out.
SPEAKER_03 (39:18):
Just, I was like, okay, got to stay in for my
husband, you know, because,because of your mindset at that.
Well, We haven't talked.
So we should have been talkingabout it the whole time.
But so I think I have to stay tosupport my family.
I'm going to really try.
(39:41):
I'm going to try to go intoservice more.
I'm going to try to make betterfriendships.
Okay, let me go out.
And instead of waiting forpeople to invite me or include
me, let me try to include, oh,would you like, you know, let's
(40:02):
go to dinner or, you know, justtry to reach out and make
friends.
And it just, oh yeah, yeah.
You know, what do they say?
Oh yeah, let's, yep, yep.
We'll get together, we'll gettogether.
And so the few girls, the fewsisters that I had reached out
to, I'm like, okay, what if weall go out to dinner or
(40:25):
something, you know, oh yeah,yeah, yeah.
And then I find out like thenext weekend that they all did
get together and went out anddidn't even include me.
And the only reason I found outis because pictures on social
media.
And I was like, okay, got it.
(40:45):
Like, I am just done.
SPEAKER_01 (40:52):
Yeah, yeah.
At any point when you were goingto walk away, did you have those
feelings that I had?
Like, I don't know how my lifewould turn out because I'm
walking away from that religion.
Did you think like did you havethose thoughts like I did or no?
SPEAKER_03 (41:10):
I don't.
I didn't.
But I will say and I'm going tohonestly, I'm going to pretty
much guarantee this.
It's because that's all you everknew.
SPEAKER_04 (41:20):
But
SPEAKER_03 (41:21):
I had a life before being a witness.
So I knew, whereas they poundinto you, your life's going to
go to hell.
I always knew that wasn't rightbecause before I was a witness,
I didn't drink, I didn't smoke,I didn't party.
I had a child very young.
I was married very young.
(41:42):
I had a normal life.
I worked a job owned a home.
Like I had a normal damn life.
And so I was just missing what Ithought I was missing was an
organized religion.
My first husband was very, he isvery spiritual believes in God,
but is a hundred percent againstorganized religion.
(42:04):
And so I would, Oh, what if wego to church?
And he's like, yeah, if that'swhat you need, but I don't need
that to be complete.
I thought I did, but now I knowI don't.
So no, I didn't have thosebecause yeah.
And I know that's why, because Iwasn't, I knew a life outside of
(42:25):
the organization.
So it didn't worry me.
SPEAKER_01 (42:28):
That's a wonderful point because I have people
asking me like, what's thedifference?
You know, I have peopleapproaching me who don't, they
learned the truth as an adult.
And they picked my brain aboutthings coming up and being
raised in it.
And I like that you brought thatout, that we had different
(42:50):
outlooks about that.
I always felt I had to stickwith this organization, or else
my life would go into shit.
But then, like you just said,you knew how your life was
before.
becoming a witness and youweren't out there doing nothing
dumb and stupid.
It's just weird how the twomindsets, how they worked.
(43:12):
It took me a while to get towhere you were.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:17):
Yeah.
Because that's all you knew.
SPEAKER_01 (43:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, for over five decades,that's all I knew.
And all that was being drilledinto my head.
They have a lot of mind controltactics.
They're
SPEAKER_03 (43:32):
good.
They are good at what they do.
SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
Yeah, they keep you low.
SPEAKER_03 (43:38):
They want to tout
SPEAKER_01 (43:39):
that
SPEAKER_03 (43:41):
8 million.
That is 8 million people thatthey have mind control over.
They
SPEAKER_04 (43:48):
just do.
SPEAKER_03 (43:48):
And it's so organized.
And that's another thing thatdrew me like, what do you you
know what do you tell as awitness oh there's over eight
million of us worldwide we youcould go to a kingdom hall
anywhere in the world and youare going to learn the same
thing together that's how wellorganized they are it's a it's a
(44:13):
very organized cult it just isvery organized
SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
yeah now are there things now that you're out Like,
I had this realization thelonger I was out.
And we've always said, you know,it was a religion.
It's organized religion.
It's a way of life.
At what point after you left didyou realize, like, well, damn,
(44:41):
that was a cult?
SPEAKER_03 (44:47):
So I tried not to even When I left, I tried just
to not think about it, ignoreit.
You know, it was a blip on myradar, right?
But the more you start seeingthings and the more you start
talking to people and you'rejust like, they control people
(45:09):
like a cult.
And then I started thinkingabout it.
And then when you startedtalking and digging in and
realizing that, that's when Iwas like, okay, let's figure
this out.
And
SPEAKER_04 (45:25):
it's,
SPEAKER_03 (45:28):
it sucks to be like, to have a wolf holder of your
eyes.
Like I felt stupid.
I'm like, damn, because when Iwas studying a lot of people,
that's a cult, that's a cult.
And I was like, no, no, no, no,no.
And then to be like, damn, I didget taken advantage of.
I did.
ignore people, you know, andit's not a cult.
(45:51):
And then to realize I gotsuckered into that.
But you get suckered into thepromise.
Like you said, the love bombingat first and the promise and the
life that they.
They paint a good picture.
SPEAKER_01 (46:10):
Yeah.
And If I urge people, becauseyou just explained it, it made
me think of a narcissist andthat organization is very
narcissistic.
You know, love bombing and thenthey like pull out the real,
(46:33):
like who they are.
And yeah, look it up.
If you're not familiar with it,I would suggest look up
narcissism and how they roll inthe beginning.
and how they transition into thecontrol phase.
And it's the exact same thingwith the Jehovah's Witness cult.
They love bomb you.
(46:55):
And I've mentioned this before,and Michelle has seen it
firsthand.
They will treat someone who hasbeen disfellowshipped and
reinstated, they will treat themdifferently and coldly compared
to a person that just walks offthe street because they have to
love bomb and pull them in.
A disfellowship person that cameback, they just think you're
(47:18):
bad, honestly.
Being disfellowshipped twice,that's just how it is, the
reality of it.
Witnesses think you're bad, andyou're always tainted in their
eyes, but let them see a newperson.
You remember, oh my goodness,this is a good example.
Remember, and I'm not going tosay his name, but he started
(47:41):
coming to our congregation.
and he was a person of color andI picked up right away and you
know he just had a shady pastshady dealings when he started
coming to the hall and I pickedup on it right away and I'm like
he's not a good person how didthe congregation treat him like
(48:04):
how did they treat him
SPEAKER_03 (48:07):
oh They love bombing, inviting in places.
Just, they were all over him.
And he was shady.
I don't know.
I don't, how could they not see?
Yeah, he was, no, he was notokay.
And I'm sure we're talking aboutthe same person.
Remember, he couldn't rememberwhere his card was.
(48:29):
And you're like, because he'sdisfellowshipped.
But he wouldn't, he would nevertell the elders where his card
was.
Oh, I've just been inactive solong.
I don't remember the lastcongregation I went to.
It was somewhere in California.
Oh, and you're like, he'sdisfellowshipped.
SPEAKER_02 (48:48):
No, he was.
SPEAKER_01 (48:50):
Oh, but they were all over him.
Yeah, I mean, they were likejust everybody kissing his ass,
and he raised his hand like fiveor six times in a watchtower
lesson, and he's commenting, andeverybody after the meeting's
like...
Isn't he the most wonderful man?
And I'm like, the elders willcome to me asking me what I
(49:11):
thought about him.
And I'm being straight up.
I'm like, I said, I've been invarious congregations.
I know the last congregation mypublisher record card is at.
Like for him to say he don'tknow where the card is, that's
like BS.
They didn't want to believe me.
They were like, he's a lostsheep.
One elder told me he's a lostsheep and we have to receive
(49:33):
him.
pretty much telling me I need tochange my viewpoint.
So I went to another elder and Isaid, he keeps saying he don't
know where his card is, but theystill studying with him, you
know?
And I'm saying something up withit.
Like he know where his card isat.
I told the elder, I said, thenext thing he gonna do, he gonna
(49:53):
come up with a sob story and hegonna need money.
Like three weeks later, one ofthem came up to me and it was
like, he asked for some money.
He asked for a car.
I picked up my briefcase and Iwas like, I told y'all.
And I told y'all I was ready togo home.
But they treat somebody likethat better than they treated
(50:15):
this fellowship person.
And like you told me, thatreally angered me.
You said they treated you weirdand didn't talk to you.
And when I came back, some wouldtreat me differently and weird.
And that's just a stigma thatthat organization puts on
someone that's been reinstatedfrom the stage, they're like,
(50:40):
oh, we're going to welcome youback in, pick up where you left
off.
But that's not the case withthat organization.
They hold grudges.
They're judgy.
And like, yeah, the longer I'mout, I'm just like, I'm so glad
that the family is out becauselike, I can just, it's like, I'm
learning you three all over.
(51:03):
know who we really are withoutany oh yeah it's about cult
chains
SPEAKER_03 (51:10):
yep it is different
SPEAKER_01 (51:13):
and and it's just it's still something do you go
through i'll ask you thisbecause i still go through this
and i mentioned it on my liveyesterday sometimes i go to do
something or i'm thinkingsomething and then i'm like oh i
can't do that Or I'm like, oh,what if somebody see?
And I'm like, do you go throughthat?
(51:33):
I hate it.
SPEAKER_03 (51:37):
It's less and less.
But yeah.
Yeah, every once in a while.
Or music.
Music.
Music.
I'm like, ooh, I shouldn't belistening to that.
And I'm like, I can listen towhatever I want.
SPEAKER_01 (51:50):
You can finally listen to your hood mix.
Music, I
SPEAKER_03 (51:52):
would say.
Yes, I can listen to my hoodmix.
SPEAKER_01 (51:56):
Listen to your hood mix, the unedited version.
sometimes y'all sometimes shehad this mix and it was like
like i'm used to the wordsespecially because she like a
lot of it's funny i'm from thesouth and she likes a lot of the
southern rappers and so i'm i'mknowing the words and like the
version she's playing is havingthem this is why we're in and
(52:19):
i'm like we can't listen to thisi wanted to listen to it i'm
trying to set a good exampleyeah Yeah, that's a big thing
too, music.
And it's like Shantay and I,it's like we're bonding, I
guess, on the music because I'mtelling her now what I like.
(52:40):
I couldn't do that.
You know, she just thought Iwas, she told me she thought I'd
never listened to anything butjazz.
And I told her with my, how Iam, that's about the safest
thing being in the truth that Icould listen to is jazz.
And so it's just like- a wholedifferent way of life and it's
nice to see us like just beingeach who we are an individual
(53:06):
and something you asked me theother day perfect example
because it sent me in a tailspinmentally a lot of times i'm like
freaking out up here but i don'tvocalize it but remember last
weekend we were at the store andwe were looking at home
decoration and do you rememberwhat you asked me about the fall
(53:27):
You're like, would I bedecorating for something?
For a particular holiday?
SPEAKER_03 (53:38):
You cut
SPEAKER_01 (53:39):
out what?
Oh, Halloween?
Yeah.
She asked me last week, we werejust shopping and she asked me,
so are we going to decorate forHalloween?
I had a freak out moment.
And then I'm like, oh, no, we'renot in it.
Like, so if you, if you areplanning on leaving or you have
(54:02):
left, like just be prepared,like everything that they
drilled in our heads up here, ittakes a while to get rid of.
And, you know, like, like Philwas saying, it's more and more,
you can realize that it was acult.
And so do you, now you mentionedyour friends, the best friends
(54:23):
from, like high school, have youtold them that you're not in
that cult anymore?
SPEAKER_03 (54:31):
Oh, everybody knows and everybody is happy.
So I've been able to tell themhappy birthday.
I've been able to give thempresents for Christmas and for
their birthdays.
And yeah, planning on getting atattoo with one of them.
So yeah, it's...
(54:53):
Yeah.
They're happy.
SPEAKER_01 (54:57):
That's good.
SPEAKER_03 (54:58):
And they both said that I seem different and I seem
happier
SPEAKER_01 (55:02):
now.
SPEAKER_03 (55:03):
And I truly feel at ease and I feel happy.
You've talked about it manytimes.
They just beat you down in thatcult because you're never good
enough.
If you're going out in serviceevery Saturday, that's still not
enough because now you can...
put some time in during the weekare you pioneering why aren't
(55:24):
you auxiliary pioneering youknow it no matter what you do
it's not good enough and thatkeeps you down and that's it's
just not a way to live and so tohave two people who've known me
longer than anyone in my lifebesides family obviously to know
(55:45):
me before during and now afterthey can both see it and they're
like now you're who you knowyou're back
SPEAKER_04 (55:58):
to
SPEAKER_03 (55:59):
who you were before
SPEAKER_04 (56:00):
yeah
SPEAKER_03 (56:01):
but i thought i was living my best life ever and i
wasn't
SPEAKER_01 (56:06):
yeah and we we thought we were happy it's just
a tactic to keep you down yeahwe we we really
SPEAKER_03 (56:13):
did
SPEAKER_01 (56:13):
honestly i think a big part of that is because of
like who we are as a couple wewere able to work through a lot
of bullshit together because I'mtalking to a lot that they might
want to be out, but their mateisn't.
It's broken up their marriagebecause of this, but it's like
(56:36):
us.
We were always on the same trainof thought, especially when we
would share intimately aboutdoubts we had and things like
that.
It's nice to have someone withyou that's bouncing thoughts,
you know, off of each otherwith.
And yeah, I can tell you'rehappier too.
(56:59):
Like, and I'm sure your friendscan, cause like you said that
you can tell them happy birthdayagain.
And then I just think you, likeyou even saying that I'm like,
man, that's just like hearingthings we used to do is so
cringy to me now.
you know, and you're saying, Ican tell them happy birthday
now.
Or like, and I'm like, oh mygoodness, we were some weird ass
people, you know?
SPEAKER_03 (57:22):
Right?
We were weird.
The one that kills me.
And I still, I still don't.
So if somebody sneezes, what doyou say?
Well, as a witness, we don't sayanything.
We just stand there lookingstupid.
When the whole world, oh, blessyou, bless you.
So now if someone sneezes, I'mlike, I can't say it yet.
(57:47):
It just feels weird.
SPEAKER_01 (57:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (57:50):
But before, I said it all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (57:52):
Yeah, I've had people even ask me, you're not
going to say bless you?
I'll be like, no.
I'm like, damn, I seem like anasshole.
SPEAKER_00 (58:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (58:09):
Yeah, I am happy to be out of it.
And I'm happy that we all, and alot of people express this,
they've had to leave familybecause they don't want to leave
that religion.
My heart goes out to everybodywho has to leave family, but
(58:31):
they do express they are happythat all four of us left
together.
I wouldn't want to say I wouldtake that statement for granted.
I would say I didn't trulyunderstand it.
When I first came into contactwith a lot of ex-Jehovah's
Witnesses and they would say,it's nice that the four of y'all
(58:52):
could leave together.
Now I'm seeing what they meanbecause I talked to so many
people.
I was talking to a gentlemanlast night and he was like,
yeah, my wife and kids wanted tostay Witnesses, so I'm alone.
And Yeah, it's likeheartbreaking.
But that's why, you know, youand I are trying to do what
we're trying to do with thisplatform to just have a place
(59:18):
that ex Jehovah's Witnesses canlike have that love, care, the
friendship, the camaraderie.
We were talking on my liveyesterday and a lot of us feel
the same way that we feel morelove and care away from the
organization now than we didwhile we were active witnesses.
(59:43):
Do you feel that way?
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (59:47):
definitely.
Yeah.
When you go through something sotraumatic, you have that bond
with people.
And so I think that's why we areall drawn to each other and We
understand.
We understand the trauma.
(01:00:07):
We see the organization for whatit is.
And we can be loving and caringto each other coming from that
same place, even thougheverybody's story is totally
different.
But the common thread is whatthat organization has done to us
(01:00:30):
or people we know, love, andcare about.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:34):
yeah and and yeah we all go our different paths and
you know our key is to me thislike should be number one our
kids and it's like shantaementioned in her episode how you
know like her her sexuality youknow what she prefers and she's
(01:00:55):
by and it's like we could seeyou and i could see kind of like
the tendency of her going thatway And even as an active
witness, I was always in myhead.
Like, what will I do?
You know, when it comes out,what am I going to do?
And we've talked about it a fewtimes, but this is.
(01:01:16):
It's just not in me to turn myback on the key.
You know, like and so it wouldhave I would have been put out
anyway.
So, yeah, I saved up a step.
So if you could, if somebody iswatching this who is thinking
(01:01:41):
about it, but they are afraidbecause of things that we've
talked about, like, you know,what will my life be like?
I won't have a support system.
Many people say this.
They were held back because theydidn't have a support system
outside of the kingdom hall.
They didn't know anybody else,wasn't friends with anyone else,
(01:02:02):
but they know that this wasn'tright.
The organization wasn't right.
They didn't like things theysaw, especially about the CSA
going on in the organization andpredators being hidden.
They knew they wanted to getout, but they just don't have
anyone.
They're afraid.
What will my life look like ifI'm not a witness?
What would you say to thatperson?
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:27):
There is...
I did not know until you starteddoing your research, there is a
huge, huge ex Jehovah's Witnesscommunity that is here for
support.
TikTok, Facebook, Instagram,social media, you know, in
general, there is just a hugesupport system.
(01:02:52):
And that's what you and I wantto be.
people because everybody's got astory and when you're and we
know how the witnesses are youdon't mingle with the world so
you likely work with a bunch ofwitnesses you know that that's
your whole world so to leavethat is incredibly scary but i
(01:03:15):
promise you will be happier thanstaying where you're at and You
can build your life to bewhatever.
There's no limits.
You can build your life to bewhatever you want it to be.
You're not going to become adrug addict and live on the
street.
It's just a scare tactic.
(01:03:35):
You can do all the hard thingsthat you think are hard.
You can do it, and you should doit.
If you are truly questioning itand see this cult for what it
is, Don't be a part of itanymore.
You know, you're giving them thepower.
(01:03:56):
You've got to take your powerback and it's going to be scary,
but there's a huge supportsystem.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04:03):
Yeah.
Yep.
Thank you for bringing all thatout because they, that's part of
what they don't want us to knowwhen we're in that there are so
many of us out there.
That's why they're trying tokeep people off the internet.
Yeah.
because we're out there and evenyou know like uh shell said you
(01:04:28):
have a community online ofex-jehovah's witnesses but like
there are groups that want to domeetups and they they are doing
meetups i can't go to one it'sone this month and i i can't go
to it and i told the the guythat was getting it together you
know i felt bad i couldn't comebecause so many want to meet me
(01:04:49):
but it's like that's apossibility too it's not all
online but some groups even meetface to face and and it's don't
feel like you're all alonethat's what they want you to
feel you know you're not goingto have me in the world your
family is all at the kingdomhall why don't you leave like
(01:05:10):
that's another scare tactic,like Cheryl was saying.
So yes, it's great to be free,you know?
And I like that we can do thisbecause people can see from two
different perspectives, somebodywho came into it, you're early
30s, and then someone who wasborn into it, you know?
(01:05:34):
And our story isn't, it's like,not normal because usually
someone who's out don't meetsomeone and they come into into
the religion so our story wasright right yeah but it's like i
don't know i'm just happy we meteach other when we when i was
(01:05:54):
out we've been in the truthtogether and now we have a life
away from it and you know like ijust feel It'll be even better
now because both of us are freefrom that aspect of being in a
cult and everything.
But yeah, we will do a lot moretogether, Steele and I.
(01:06:20):
She started her account.
What's your account?
It might be close to you.
On IG and TikTok, your username.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06:35):
You froze, babe.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06:39):
I said, let them know you're on TikTok and
Instagram.
I said, what's your ID?
I said, it may be close to you.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06:48):
Yes.
It may be close to me.
TikTok and Instagram, I don'thave a Facebook page for it, but
yes, mrs.xjdub.
TikTok and Instagram.
So I will definitely be moreactive as well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:09):
Yeah.
So you all go, you know, showher some love on her accounts on
TikTok and Instagram.
I had mixed emotions when shedid it because I'm always
protective of my family.
And I'm like, man, if a witnessstepped to her the wrong way.
(01:07:30):
But I know she's an adult andcan handle herself.
SPEAKER_03 (01:07:34):
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:35):
But yeah, they just better not step the wrong way.
But no, I'm happy that you arehere.
SPEAKER_03 (01:07:45):
So far, I haven't had any...
I have witnesses friending me.
Hello, sister.
I'm like, you just really don'tpay any attention, do you?
They don't.
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:55):
They don't.
All I see is they don't.
SPEAKER_03 (01:07:57):
I'm like, okay, you want to be on my page.
Cool.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08:01):
I can't even tell you how many witnesses I have on
my page.
And then it'll click, andthey'll see a post.
Why did you post this?
And I was like, go look at myname.
It's an EX in front of it.
And they go, oh.
SPEAKER_03 (01:08:17):
Right.
Like, it's,
SPEAKER_01 (01:08:18):
yeah, it's crazy.
Yeah, but we'll, Michelle and I,we have plans.
We are going to be doing more,especially these where we will
probably like dive into aparticular subject together and
discuss it as a couple and likewe have a lot of things planned
(01:08:40):
she's helping me like figure outwhat i've made the post about uh
you know having a website for usand a talk forum and loading up
videos of interviews ofex-witnesses because we all tell
a different story and yeah solook for big things from us uh
(01:09:03):
thank you for being here shale iappreciate you
SPEAKER_02 (01:09:07):
of course
SPEAKER_01 (01:09:09):
it's nice to keep learning more and more about you
as we uh since we left that cultand uh yeah so i thank you all
for uh tuning in and watchingyou all know you can find me on
uh man everything reallyfacebook everywhere yeah
(01:09:32):
instagram twitter youtube umreddit x j dub you type that in
and it should should pull me upso i thank you all for your
support we
SPEAKER_04 (01:09:45):
have our group on facebook too
SPEAKER_01 (01:09:47):
oh thank you oh my god look at that thank you see
that's why you're the producerlook at that x oh you see yeah
so
SPEAKER_04 (01:09:57):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (01:09:57):
yeah see yeah the xjw network on facebook is a
private group the witnessescan't get in to bother us like
either uh shell and myself areapproving people when they
request to come in so yes yeahit's it's a nice place that we
talk freely the private facebookgroup thank you for reminding me
see that's why you're theproducer now i owe you a coffee
SPEAKER_03 (01:10:20):
there we go oh perfect i'm almost out
SPEAKER_01 (01:10:26):
Oh, my goodness.
All right.
Well, thank you.
And I will talk to you soon.
All right.
Bye,
SPEAKER_04 (01:10:34):
everybody.
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