Self-Directed IRAs: How to Invest in Real Estate, Startups, and More

Looking for ways to invest your retirement funds beyond the stock market? A self-directed IRA is an often-overlooked financial tool that can unlock powerful investments in real estate, startups, and even crypto.

In this eye-opening episode, Mat Sorensen, the leading voice in SDIRAs, joins the show to explain how executives can break free from the limits of traditional brokerages and build real wealth on their own terms.

This conversation is a goldmine of actionable advice. You'll learn the key legal frameworks, how to navigate complex tax traps like UDFI and UBIT, and the strategy for taking full control of your financial future using structures like LLCs and checkbook IRAs.

Whether you're new to self-directed investing or ready to scale, this is your blueprint.



Timestamps:

00:01 – Welcome & Guest Intro: Mat Sorensen
00:21 – How Mat Entered the SDIRA Space
01:45 – What is a Self-Directed IRA? Explained Simply
03:45 – IRAs vs. 401(k)s: Where the Real Money Is
06:00 – When You Can Move 401(k) Funds to an IRA
06:34 – Self-Direction vs. Checkbook Control
08:30 – Using LLCs for Real Estate Investing via IRAs
10:00 – Can You Use Financing? (Non-Recourse Loans Explained)
11:58 – UDFI & UBIT Taxes: What You Need to Know
14:31 – Strategies to Minimise or Defer UDFI Tax
17:00 – The Real Goal: Maximise After-Tax Wealth
18:52 – Investing in Startups, Private Companies & Crypto
21:00 – Unusual IRA Investments (Racehorses, RV Parks, Cows!)
21:48 – Final Thoughts: Stop Letting Retirement Accounts Sit Idle


Guest:

Mat Sorensen
CEO of Directed IRA | Attorney | SDIRA Expert | Author of The Self-Directed IRA Handbook
LinkedIn

Host:

Bryan Hancock

Executive Connect | Website
YouTube: @ExecutiveConnect


Connect With Us:

Podcast Website: https://www.executiveconnectpodcast.com
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ExecutiveConnect

Social:

Bryan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanhancock/
Podcast LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/my-executive-connect/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
You don't build wealth by trying to avoid taxes.

(00:02):
You build wealth by investing wisely.
What you're looking for in your retirement account is an overall return on investment.
Now when you get a loan, to buy real estate, you have to make sure you get the right type of loan.
It's called a non-recourse loan.
Let's let our money work for you.
And if you're someone that's got hundreds of thousands or more, hundreds of thousands
or loans in your IRA or 401(k), your wealth is going to be built focusing on that.

(00:23):
Because we want our assets working for us.
The goal of most people getting to a self-directed IRA is
we're trying to invest in an asset that thinks going to get a better return.
But the better way is to invest in better, invest in assets that we grow and build.
What if you could buy real estate, startups, or even crypto?
Matt Soroson is the CEO of Directed IRA, a national expert on self-directed retirement investing

(00:50):
and author of the number one book in the space.
His firm manages over 20,000 accounts and 2.1 billion in assets.
Now let's get into the episode.
Well welcome to the Executive Connect podcast.
I have with me today Mr. Matt Soroson.

(01:12):
Hey Matt, it's good to see you.
Thanks for coming.
Hey, thanks for having me.
I love being on, talking about self-directed IRAs in real estate, so.
Yeah, yeah.
So your company's grown quite a bit.
How'd you guys launch into the self-directed IRA thing that you got going on?
Well, I was an attorney in the space helping clients across the country use IRAs to buy real estate.

(01:33):
And I had my first client, literally 19 years ago,
I was like, I want to use my IRA to buy real estate.
Now I was like, what are you talking about?
I'd never heard about it.
And then I dug into it.
I'm like, oh, this is a little thing.
This is kind of a cool little niche.
So the game of attorney in the space kind of became the national expert on it.
Rilt the number one book, spoke across the country,

(01:54):
represented most of the companies that do this as their outside lawyer.
Now they're my competitors.
So as we set up our own company, because we thought we could do it a lot better,
our set up our own company, directed IRA back at the end of 2018.
So today, we are over 20,000 accounts,
2.5 billion in assets.

(02:15):
We've opened up over 1,000 new accounts a month.
So we're growing fast and doing it the right way.
It's just kind of the old fashioned way.
Like, know what the hell you're doing.
Take care of people.
To live a high level of service.
To live your expertise.
And that's what we're doing.
But it's a cool strategy.
I think a lot of people just haven't heard about it.
So that's what we are.
So we're being on podcasts and stuff like this,

(02:37):
just so people are aware of it.
And I know you've been in it and we're familiar with it.
We've talked.
It's been years, but
so it's kind of an interesting little strategy,
which is why I decided like put my whole career into it.
Because I'm like, this is pretty damn cool.
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean, most of our audience is corporate executives.
But I would venture to say most of them probably

(02:58):
have still never heard of a self-directed IRA.
So maybe we can start there.
So what exactly is a self-directed IRA?
So also this is an IRA that can invest in any asset allowed by law.
Most people think of their IRA or 401K.
And they think of a broker dealer IRA.
They think of like fidelity, TD Ameritrade.
And what can your IRA invest in?

(03:19):
Well, what they sell.
They sell financial products.
So your IRA is at Northwestern Mutual or a New York life.
What can your IRA buy there?
Anuities because that's what they sell.
So,
but your IRA has always been able to invest in real estate,
private companies, startups, private funds,
oil and gas deals, crypto.

(03:40):
Like it's always been able to do that.
You just can't do it with a broker dealer
because they don't sell that.
So you need these call of self-directed IRAs.
And there's 20 companies or so that do what we do.
We just happen to be the best.
But there's 20 companies that do this.
And when you have an account with a self-directed IRA provider,
we're like, well, what do you want to invest in?
You want to buy real estate.
You want to invest in a small business and a private fund

(04:02):
and a startup.
You know, it's whatever you're into.
And so it's a little different than just typing in a ticker, you know,
by spy or by Apple.
It's a little different than that.
But it allows a greater,
a greater investment options for people as we say,
take control of their retirement to invest in assets
that they know and believe in

(04:22):
as opposed to just being fully invested in the stock market.
Right.
I think most folks probably think about their 401(k).
But, you know, I think we probably need to distinguish that from the IRA.
And, you know,
can people invest with their 401(k)
and usually those are kind of governed,
there's governing documents for those through their employer, right?

(04:45):
So I think what we're talking about here is
when people have rolled the money out of their 401(k)
and to an IRA,
can we maybe just talk through that a little bit
just to try and tease out and distinguish
what we're talking about here?
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(05:07):
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Yeah, so now 401(k)s can be self-directed.
It's a little more complicated,
but most people who are doing this are using an IRA.
Now, there's $44 trillion in US retirement accounts.
And that's true.
Trillions, right?
When do you use that word?

(05:28):
I mean, the only time I use it is in this presentation
when I talk about this is like,
so there's, so what,
this is where all the money's at in America.
And like this $44 trillion is the most investible set of dollars anywhere, period.
There's no more money anywhere except in US retirement accounts.
And we've all got a little sliver of that $44 trillion.
Well, the biggest bucket of the $44 trillion is actually IRAs.

(05:50):
Most people think most of the money's in 401(k)s, it's not.
$17 trillion of the $44 is actually in IRAs.
Then you got about 15 in 401(k)s, then you got pensions,
and some of their like smaller buckets of money in the retirement account space.
But IRAs already have most of the money in it.

(06:11):
Now most of that originated from a 401(k).
They left that job, they rolled it to an IRA.
People don't work at the same company for 30, 40 years anymore.
They jump around and they might have four or five different employers during their lifetime.
And they might have four or five different 401(k)s that could have been rolled into an IRA at some point.
So, now, that's what most people come to a self-directed IRA with.

(06:33):
They already have an IRA at Fidelity, or they got an IRA at TD Ameritrade.
They've got a Roth IRA at Schwab.
And they're just like, "Well, I don't want to buy what they're selling.
I want to invest in an oil and gas, still.
I want to invest in a startup or a private equity fund."
Well, you transfer that same account, your Roth IRA at Schwab,
to a Roth IRA at directed IRA.
And now you can go and do it.

(06:53):
Now the 401(k) is tricky because a lot of 401(k)s,
like if it's a 401(k) where you still work,
and you're not yet retirement plan age of 59 and a half,
the employer can lock you down and say, "Hey, as long as you're still an employee here,
we use Vanguard." That means you're using Vanguard.
And that's all you can do.
So you're kind of locked in and you can't move.
But once you're no longer employed,

(07:15):
or you hit retirement plan age of 59 and a half,
you can move that money.
Even if you still work there, if you're a retirement plan age,
you can move that to an IRA wherever you want,
whether you're like, "I want to go to Fidelity,"
or "I want to go to directed IRA and self-direct."
So, there's kind of a little snag sometimes on your current day job 401(k).

(07:36):
So, what exactly does a self-direction mean?
Because I know there's a distinction between the self-direction through a custodian,
but there's also this feature in some plans,
or some ways people have things set up where you can actually have check-book control
of your IRA as well.
Do you guys owe for both, or can you maybe talk to us a little bit about that?
Yeah, so there's kind of two options when you get into self-directing.

(07:58):
It depends on what you want to invest into.
Let's say you just want to invest in a private fund,
whether it's a real estate fund, a private equity fund,
an oil and gas fund, whatever it is.
If you're doing that, or you're investing in a startup,
you're just going to do a self-directed IRA.
You open an account with us, let's say,
when you transfer the money from Fidelity, let's say you've got a $400,000 IRA at Fidelity.

(08:22):
You're like, "Well, I want to do 100 grand in this private fund."
Okay, we'll open up the self-directed IRA,
"Trients over 100 grand."
You don't have to move the whole thing,
just whatever you want to self-direct.
Then you have a self-directed IRA account.
That could be a traditional IRA, a Roth IRA, a Sep IRA,
it can even be a Holt-Sames account.
All these different account types can be self-directed.
But there, when you invest in the private fund,

(08:44):
your IRA is just going to invest in that company.
It's an LLC or a limited partnership,
and it just buys the units or the shares in that company.
Now, there's some, a lot of clients,
actually one of the most popular investments is real estate.
And so, a lot of real estate people who self-direct
take that same example, money that's a fidelity,
transfer over 100 grand, you want to do a real estate deal.

(09:07):
Well, they're like, "Yeah, but I want to buy that rental property on one, two, three green street.
It's $100,000, for example."
Well, what a lot of those self-directed investors do is,
rather than have the IRA own the property,
they have the IRA invest in the LLC,
and the IRA owns the LLC, 100%,
the LLC in turn owns the real estate.

(09:27):
And that's popular because in the LLC,
you get a checking account in the LLC.
So, your IRA's cash gets invested in the LLC.
The LLC has a business checking account.
There's banks we work with that are familiar with this,
and they know what the hell this structure is.
But then, you as the IRA owner can be the manager.
So, now, the LLC is going to buy the property on one, two, three green street.

(09:48):
They're going to be on the contract and on title,
and your LLC bank account receives the income, it pays expenses.
You know, now, the thing with IRAs is when you're doing deals,
is like, you're not using those assets.
Don't want to make sure we understand that.
Like, this is an investment, right?
This is like a rental property, some tenant staying in,
or it's a property you're rehabbing,

(10:09):
and paying a contractor to fix it up so you can flip it for profit.
So, but the LLC, sometimes it's called a checkbook IRA,
or an IRA LLC.
It's more of a strategy.
You know, it takes a self-directed IRA.
It's an extra step in the process,
because rather than the IRA investing,
it's cash into the private fund,
the LLC or the limited partnership or the corporation that's private,

(10:30):
and just owning those shares, getting profits from the company,
back into the IRA.
The IRA has a, it's like holding company LLC in the middle kind of,
that you can manage and have a bank account,
which for certain real estate investors,
like you're buying a rental or you're flipping a property,
is a much better structure.
That's what we use,
for a lot of our real estate clients.

(10:52):
Yeah, so, you know, I know real estate,
people don't normally pay cash for real.
I mean, it does happen, right?
Developers will buy a piece of land cash, the bull on it,
but there's generally some sort of financing component
to most of the transactions.
Does that play into, you know,
how all of this works with an IRA?
Like, you know, can you talk about that a little bit?

(11:13):
And then also, you touched on a little bit
about the outside benefits piece,
because we talk maybe a little bit about
what you can and can't do in terms of outside benefits.
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Yeah, so first your IRA can buy real estate with cash outright,

(11:56):
and we have lots of people that do that.
You can also get a loan to leverage the purchasing power
to buy more real estate than you could otherwise buy.
If you think you're an IRA by and stock or a mutual fund,
you can't get a margin trading account on an IRA.
They don't let you do that.
But your IRA can buy real estate,
and you debt to leverage the purchasing power of the IRA.

(12:18):
Now, when you get a loan to buy real estate,
you have to make sure you get the right type of loan.
It's called a non-recourse loan.
And there's banks that specialize in these loans.
There's probably about eight to 10 banks now
that do these loans where your IRA is buying rental real estate
and they're lending money for the down payment.
These are kind of like DSCR loans,
if you're familiar with them,
like debt service coverage ratio loans,

(12:39):
where they're like, what's the debt service
that you're gonna have to pay for the mortgage and to own the property?
What's the rental income we expect you can get?
And then as the property appraises enough
for the value we're lending you.
They don't look at the credit of you, the IRA owner,
or the IRA doesn't have credit itself,
they're looking at the property,

(13:00):
and they're lending on the property.
Now, under those loan terms, if the IRA
misses its payments and doesn't make the payments on the loan,
the bank has the right to foreclose and take the property back.
They can't come after the IRA,
and they can't come after the IRA owner personally.
That's what's a non-recourse about it.
But they do have rights to the asset they lent on,
to foreclose and take that property back.

(13:21):
So you can use a non-recourse loan to increase the purchasing power,
so maybe you want to buy a $300,000 property, and you have 100K.
You could possibly put $100K down and get a loan for the other $200,000.
Those loans, you typically gotta put 30% down though.
It's not like you're putting 10 or 20% down,
because of the nature of those loans,
they're generally gonna be 30% some banks even require 40%.

(13:46):
Okay, are there any special tax implications that go with that?
Like this UDI and UBIT situation can you maybe talk through that a little bit?
Yeah, so basically what the IRS says is they're like,
and this is for purposes of today,
this is, I mean, I have a whole book on this, by the way.
I have a full day conference on this stuff,
so if you're like, "Dude, you just went right over my head, Matt."

(14:08):
I just heard what the heck a self-directed IRA is,
and you're talking about UDI, FI tax.
Just hang in there, okay?
It's all right.
When you buy an asset with, let's just take the real estate example I did,
you bought a property for 300K,
100,000 of it was the IRA's money invested,
the other 200,000 was from a loan.

(14:30):
Well, the IRS looks at that, and they're like,
"100,000 of this was IRA money, so when the profits come back to the IRA,
that was one third of the purchase."
You don't have to pay taxes on that, because
IRAs don't pay tax when they make money.
But the other two thirds of the purchase, that was debt.
That was not IRA money.
We're going to let the money go back into your IRA,

(14:52):
but you're going to have to pay tax on profits from that,
because that wasn't money you contributed to your retirement account,
or grew your retirement account with.
You're basically juicing your retirement account by using this debt.
So they'll let you do it as long as it's a non-recourse loan,
but they make you pay tax on it.
Now, from our perspective, it's a day and good deal, actually,
because when you sell the property, which is when most people end up having to pay this,

(15:14):
if they have a gain, that appreciation on the property,
you get capital gains rates, which is 20% max, if you hold it over a year.
And it's only on the debt.
It's not on the money that your IRA put in.
So if I think of my IRA by 100,000 of mutual funds or stocks,
I can only buy 100,000 of assets.
But I think of my IRA by in real estate, it can buy a $300,000 asset

(15:35):
that can appreciate on $300,000.
I can get cash from off of $300,000 of an asset.
So it's a nice perk for those buying real estate,
because they can increase the purchasing power and buy more assets.
Again, you do pay tax, but you never had that $200,000.
Right.
Yeah, okay.

(15:58):
And so, I mean, is it common for people that,
that prefer, you know, instead of selling,
you know, that you guys have a law firm too,
or that you're a member of a law firm?
Is it common that people try to defer those taxes
using various strategies too?
And is that something that your IRA company,
or maybe your holistic law firm, or however you're set up,
they can help with as well?
So there's definitely strategies to try and minimize that tax or defer it.

(16:23):
That would be in my law firm, KQS lawyers.
We advise clients across the country on just business and tax planning in general.
And then obviously, we have a niche in this self-directed IRA space.
So there's some strategies there.
I mean, one of the things we've seen clients do is if you pay the debt
down before you sell it, the IRS doesn't charge the UDIFI tax at the time of sale

(16:44):
as long as you hold the property for 12 months with no debt.
And so there's a number of little things that you can do
to try and get around it.
So, but what I would say is,
is what you're looking for in your retirement account is an overall return on investment.
Like, I'm trying to get my retirement account as big as possible.

(17:05):
One thing when people focus too much on this UDIFI tax is
they're like, that sounds complicated.
And I'm like, okay, sure, keep buying 100,000 worth of assets with your 100,000 in your IRA
and start buying 300,000.
Like if that property goes up 10%, do you want a $30,000 increase in your retirement account
or do you want 10,000?

(17:26):
Well, Matt, on that 30,000, 20,000 that I got to pay tax on.
Cool.
Why do you, why are you worried?
Your way ahead, it's 20% on 20,000.
It's like $16,000, it's $4,000.
You've made $16,000 more in the grand scheme of things.
So, I think some people get like, notch onto it too much and

(17:50):
particularly real estate investors, they're like, well, if it's not any tax, I don't want to do it.
I'm like, okay.
So, it's important to know, but I would just,
you know, know the debt if you can buy with cash too.
You can also private lend your IRA.
That's very popular too.
Just your IRA can lend to other real estate investors and get interest in points.

(18:10):
That's what I do with my account right now.
I lend it 12% interest in two points.
Really clean, really easy.
Note that taxable, right, can get a 16% annual return because I do six month loans.
So, I get my two points twice a year.
And so, and again, I think the goal of most people getting into a self-directed IRA is,
they're trying to invest in an asset that they think is going to get a better return.

(18:32):
Some people are doing it to diversify because they think they're over invested in the stock market.
But most people are coming to it because they're like, yeah,
I hear the stock markets up and it has been up and down lately.
But I hear the stock markets up, but my account isn't, you know,
I've got this target date fund that can't seem to break three or four percent a year.

(18:52):
And they're like frustrated, right?
So, they're trying to get into an asset that's going to have a higher rate of return.
Because the one thing we all want when we hit 59.5 is the biggest account possible, right?
Well, how do I do that?
Well, I can put more money in its contributions, but the better way is to invest it better,
invest in the assets that will grow and build you wealth.
Yeah, I think that's an important point too.

(19:15):
I've traveled in the real estate sector for a long time and people are,
a lot of people are really focused on minimizing taxes.
But I think the important conversation piece here is, we're trying to maximize
after-tax gains, not minimize taxes.
So, to your point earlier, I mean, I would much rather have made the larger number.
And going to add and pay more tax, you know, sometimes that's a really good problem to have

(19:39):
that you're paying high taxes.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes that, you know, and I'm a tax lawyer, so, you know,
that this is, that sometimes like the tax tailwags the dog for some people,
they just like it's so focused on the tax benefits.
And I see this in certain assets and I'm like, you didn't even look at the investment,
you just asked a bunch of tax questions because you're held that I'm not paying tax,

(20:00):
and you just made a dumb investment.
You know, and so you got to make sure you're lying and bolt those things up.
We want to be tax efficient.
Don't get me wrong.
I mean, I'm about paying only what you exactly have to and nothing more.
But, but I want to also invest as best as I can and get the best return.
Because that's how you build wealth.
You don't build wealth by trying to avoid taxes.

(20:22):
You build wealth by investing wisely, not working your butt off every day.
But by using that income to go invest in assets that appreciate over time and create
concrete income or cash flow for you.
So, and debt can be a great tool in doing that.
So, I mean, we talked a lot about real estate, but I mean, are people able to use these

(20:44):
vehicles to invest in operating companies as well?
And, you know, maybe there's some unique things that people need to know about if they do that instead?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, your IRA can invest in a private company with lots of IRAs that invest in startups.
You know, the most famous one is Peter Teal, if you're familiar with him, right?
He's the guy that has the $6 billion Roth IRA.

(21:06):
And everyone's like, how do you have a $6 billion Roth IRA or Mitt Romney, right?
When he ran for president, there's like, he has a $100 billion IRA.
Like, how did he do that?
Well, they both invested in private companies.
They didn't go by a mutual fund or a publicly traded company.
So, Peter Teal was famous for being the first outside investor in Facebook.
He put $500,000 into Facebook.

(21:26):
He was the first outside investor that did this, that put money into this thing.
He was still the Facebook.com.
And I think he got like 10 or 20 percent.
I can't remember the ownership stake he got for that.
But it turned out to be one of the best investments of all time, right?
Made him, we were billions of dollars.
And he did it in his Roth IRA where he's going to pay no tax, right?

(21:48):
And so startups are possible.
And many clients use Roth IRAs if they think it's going to go to the moon.
So, but you can invest in small business, big business, doesn't matter.
It's just we're getting a lot of companies privately owned longer, less companies go public nowadays.
You're seeing IRAs to get more involved in the mix.

(22:09):
So, could be an operating company.
It could also be crypto.
I mean, your IRA can invest in crypto.
It can do an oil and gas deal.
Middle rights is particularly popular more than like drilling and that type of stuff with your IRA
because there's other tax benefits to do that personally.
But I mean, really the world's your oyster.
I mean, we have clients that own professional soccer teams in Latin America with their IRAs,

(22:35):
clients that have owned every type of crypto you can imagine, share a race horse,
clients buy cows with their, my partner Mark, you know, and he's a co-founder in the company.
He's like, he's got cows in his health savings account, right?
You know, so all this type of stuff, you know, I've invested in private companies with my IRA.

(22:56):
Like I invested in breeze airways, you know?
It's an airline privately traded right now.
You can't buy it on the stock exchange,
but I invested through a private equity fund into breeze airways.
It was the same people that did jet blue that started breeze.
So, all this stuff's available to you.
My IRA's invested in RV park, okay?
It's invested.
I mean, all this stuff is trying to like, it's all available, you know?

(23:20):
It just can't be used for personal purposes.
You're not buying like real estate to live in personally.
You're not investing in your own personal small business or company
because it creates this privated transaction risk.
Everything else is fair game for you to invest in.
Well, hey, Matt, thanks for taking the time to let us know about this.
You know, folks are interested in learning more about your company and how to get one of these set up.

(23:45):
You know, what, what should they do?
The best way to go is just direct at IRA.com.
So, we have a ton of educational resources there.
You can book a call with our team too to answer any questions or to get your account started.
And what I would just say is, is you think about, you know, your retirement account.
You think of your sliver of that 44 trillion I mentioned earlier is

(24:05):
the best thing that you can do is be involved and engaged.
Whether you're going to self-direct or not.
I think too many people, this has just been sleepy money.
They let it go in their IRA or 401k and they figured out, forget about it.
I think that's a major mistake.
Like, how much time and effort do you put in every day working your butt off earning money?

(24:25):
Let's let our money work for you.
And if you're someone that's got 100,000 or more, hundreds of thousands or millions in your IRA or 401k,
your wealth is going to be built focusing on that,
not on your butt working up every day.
Because we want our assets working for us, not our ass working for us.
So, get over to direct.irror.com.
We can help with any of the self-directed questions there.

(24:45):
And thanks for having me, Brian.
Yeah, yeah.
Thanks for having.
Thanks for coming on.
And that's executive connect podcast.
All right, we can cut it there.
Did you hear all that beeping?
Yes, I kept getting like, bings in my ear. I'm like,
"Oh, you guys told me to stop talking."
I didn't know.
I'm hopeful it was just like a look.
Did you hear like an actual bing?
Or was it really loud too, actually?

(25:07):
Yeah, Melissa, you didn't turn your bings off.
Our editor is going to have a hell of a time editing all that out.
There's maybe five of them.
Yeah, we'll figure it out.
But that's a lesson for us for the next one of these.
We have a new Mac.
So I think her notification bings.

(25:27):
Yeah, the notification thing is...
We'll figure it out.
Our editor is pretty good.
But...
Okay, cool.
Going through growing pains here.
We've got all the professional mics set up and everything,
but we're not, we're kind of Mac ignorant at this point.
So we'll learn that for the next one.
Yeah, thanks for taking the time.
Yeah, and happy when you guys, if you share it on your social,

(25:48):
we'll try to reshare on R&T too.
Okay, do that.
And like I said, we're out in...
We go to Phoenix five, six times a year.
So I'll send you a note the next time we're there.
Maybe...
Okay, let's stop over.
Yeah, yeah.
All right, man.
Okay, thank you for taking the time.
See you.
See you.