July 4, 2024 • 32 mins
In this episode of "The Executive Realm," Dr. D and Dr. K explore the transformative impact of friendships in the workplace. Friendships at work can dramatically enhance our professional lives, blending personal bonds with professional interactions. These relationships bring numerous benefits, from boosting morale and fostering collaboration to enhancing overall job satisfaction, higher productivity, and increased profitability.
We also delve into the potential risks and challenges. Failed friendships can lead to workplace tension and conflict, while friendships between leaders and employees introduce complex dynamics of favoritism and blurred boundaries.
Join us as we navigate the delicate balance of maintaining professional integrity while fostering meaningful connections. Can we harness the power of workplace friendships without falling into the pitfalls?
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Episode Transcript
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Dr. D. (00:05):
Hello Welcome to the realm. I'm dr d,
and I bring the strategy.
Dr. K (00:09):
I'm Dr K, I bring the psychology. We are business
psychologists and your guides tothe executive realm, where we
bring strategy and psychologytogether,
Dr. D. (00:18):
so you can bring your best to your C suite, your teams
and your customers. Today, we'retalking about work friends.
Friendships at work candramatically transform and
influence our professionalexperience. These relationships
bring a host of benefits. Theyboost morale, foster
collaboration and enhance jobsatisfaction. In fact, a Gallup
study found that employees withclose friends at work are seven
(00:40):
times more likely to be engagedin their jobs. This surge in
engagement ignites higherproductivity, elevates customer
service and reduces turnover.
But what are the risks? Failedfriendships can lead to tension
and conflict, undermining teamcohesion and morale. With
friendships between leaders andemployees, these dynamics become
even more complex. Friendshipswith leaders can build trust and
loyalty, but they can also riskfavoritism, blurred boundaries
(01:01):
and difficult power dynamics. Solet's get to work. Dr K, can we
have workplace friendships whilemaintaining professional
integrity?
Dr. K (01:11):
I think it is possible.
There has to be open, honestcommunication when that gets
taken out, or that gets blurred,or that gets misconstrued or not
enough information or accurateor trustful information is out
there, I think then theprofessional part, the integrity
part, as well as the friendshippart, can be completely blown
(01:33):
out of the water, and that cancause
Dr. D. (01:37):
multiple problems. That is a challenge, because you have
this one persona at work. It'sreally close to the real you,
but you have to be a little bitprotective of how people
interpret you. There's a lot ofpolitics. You can't overshare
necessarily. You don'tnecessarily talk about things at
work that you talk about withyour best friend, but if you
have a best friend at work, thatblurs the line a little bit. But
(02:00):
before we get into thechallenges and complications,
why don't we talk about thebenefits of having friends at
work? Absolutely,
Dr. K (02:05):
first off, always, the job depends on what kind of
friendships, when you know thatyour person's going to be there,
or someone that you can laughwith, or the person that you go
take a lunch break with,whatever it might be, whatever
the dynamics are, that doesincrease that moment when you're
at work, when you're not feelingit, but then you're like, Oh my
God, but I got my lunch breakwith my friend. I can laugh. I
(02:28):
can do this. I do believebenefits are extremely
important, and sometimes withworking with people, I think
they forget that they have thosefriendships at work, and they
focus on all the negative partsthat they don't have, and that
gets in the way you can have
Dr. D. (02:44):
conversations with friends that you don't work with
and complain about work or talkabout what your projects are
going on, but you can't reallyconnect with them over that
because it's not a sharedexperience. But when you have
friends at work, you're sharingthose experiences. You have a
level of camaraderie andconnection around a set of
circumstances that take up agood portion of your life,
(03:05):
there's a deeper understanding,or have a common understanding,
of people that they work with,or the culture or the dynamics
of an organization. And studieshave shown that mental health
and well being is actuallyimproved, because when you have
somebody at work that you canreally connect with a real
friend. It reduces stress and itincreases your overall well
(03:25):
being, not to mention when youhave that friendship, that
shorthand, you can reallyincrease collaboration and
teamwork. When you are workingwith people that you really like
and you are genuine friendswith, it makes it easier to
communicate. It makes it easierto trust that would translate to
better collaboration and sharingknowledge and selfishly, for an
(03:46):
organization, having friends atwork makes it more difficult to
leave an organization. If you'reemotionally committed to the
job, that's one thing. You cango work somewhere else. But if
you're really emotionallycommitted to the people, and you
have that high sense of loyaltybecause your friends are at work
and they're not going anywhere,those strong social connections
cause you to really second guesswhether or not you're gonna make
(04:08):
that leap and go somewhere else.
So that has a really favorablebenefit on turnover. Absolutely,
Dr. K (04:13):
I've worked with many people that are sad when someone
leaves and it changes thedynamics at work, or when
they've decided to move on forwhatever reasons they have,
they're sad that they're leavingwork. Let's be real. We've been
developed into being socialcreatures. When you're working
hard and you're in the flow, andthat's all that you have at
(04:34):
work, having that break, knowingthat you have the support,
feeling that someone understandswhat you're going through,
definitely can help managewhatever negative feelings
someone might have, or helpmanage any low points that they
might be having or anyloneliness that they might feel
within their job if they feelthey're the only ones that are
(04:55):
doing it. But then they have afriend that they can talk to,
and then the friend can say,Yeah, you are. Working really
hard. They're feeling validated.
But here I am with this, andwe're doing this together. We're
collaborating. It's alwaysbeneficial to have someone that
can one validate, but also, youknow, to show you what's really
happening, they have thatobjective viewpoint.
Organizations
Dr. D. (05:15):
are changing a lot.
There are new people coming in,there are people leaving. There
are organizational changes.
There are structural changes.
There are very good things thathappen, like winning a big
client, or there are somestressful things that happen,
like changing your softwareplatform. All of those things
create apprehension in people,and having close friends at work
allows shared processing. Thosepeople that are close will think
(05:37):
through the challenge or theopportunity or the excitement,
and it'll actually deepen thatfriendship, but it also helps
somebody process out loud withsomebody else,
Dr. K (05:49):
sometimes, when we're isolated within yourself, that
tends to take control and canlead to a negative place. So
having that friendship or thatteamwork, where you can
collaborate and understand,again, that you're not alone or
that someone else feels the sameway. That it can add to
profitability. It can keepretention high so friendships,
(06:12):
they can be very beneficialagain. It also can have its
risks.
Dr. D. (06:16):
There are downsides of having friends at work, if one
friend starts to develop anegative perspective, or a
negative outlook on anorganization or a situation that
can very quickly spread betweenfriends in that camaraderie. It
can poison people who wouldn'tbe otherwise bothered by
something, but it can benegatively reinforced by one
(06:38):
person going, Wow, I really hatethis person, and then that can
create an in group and out groupbias. All of a sudden, a little
group of friends who worktogether are not working to
collaborate and solve a problem.
They're sticking togetheragainst whatever that problem
is, reinforcing negativethoughts and reinforcing
negative behaviors towards aperson or a situation or an
(06:59):
organizational change. Yeah.
Dr. K (07:03):
And it also can be that one person or a few people,
could be bothered by somethingthat someone else isn't bothered
or isn't privy to, and thatperson could be negatively
influenced without even knowingthat they're being negatively
influenced. And it might not bethat we're having the mean girls
group come in, and they're like,Okay, we're gonna make sure this
person's on our side. But whenwe hear things over and over, we
(07:26):
start going, Oh my gosh. Do Ifeel that way? Do I need to look
at that? And then we startlooking, and we can always find
something to support what we'relooking for, whether or not it's
actual evidence to support whatwe're looking for, we can always
because we can read into it. Wecan have a perspective that just
forms around what we need it toform around. That's where people
(07:48):
need to be autonomous in theirown thinking. Take in what
you're hearing, look, do yourown reconnaissance, and look to
see is okay? Is this somethingthat's happening? How much is
it, to the degree that someoneis saying it's happening, the
intensity, the frequency, or isthat because they have a
negative perception, or theyhave a fearful perception or an
(08:12):
anxious perception? And also weneed to take into consideration
was their work life balance?
Okay? Do they have so muchnegativity going on outside of
work, that something negativeinside is now manifesting
bigger, because they've got somuch going on. And that's where,
again, that autonomy of your ownthoughts and emotions, what are
you experiencing personally?
(08:35):
What are you perceiving? Whatare you seeing? And take that
into consideration you reallywant to take in what's happening
to you. Yeah, you
Dr. D. (08:44):
have to maintain your own internal sense of balance.
Those friends can reallyinfluence you in a negative way,
but they can also influence youin a positive way. If you
experienced something likesexual harassment or witnessed
something unethical, or having aclose friend that you can
confide in and talk to mightactually give you the
encouragement to speak up, raiseyour hand, talk to somebody as
(09:07):
well. Those friendships reallyare a double edged sword. They
can help give you the courageand the insight and the
perspective to take action whereyou might feel restricted or
unsure, because that personunderstands the dynamic and the
culture a little bit better, butthey can also influence you in a
negative way. Is thisinfluencing me in a professional
(09:28):
way? Am I still maintaining myown of autonomy? So I guess
we're talking about theboundaries at this point of
friendships at work. How cansomebody maintain that spirit of
individuality and independencewhile still having a very close
friend or a very close group offriends at work, and still feel
like you're an individualcontributor to the success and
(09:51):
the purpose of the organization,but also value the friendships
around you that you have at workif
Dr. K (09:57):
you are working with, let's say, a. Of Nancy.
Sometimes we're friends withnegative Nancy's might be that
you say, hey, you know, and Iknow you got some struggles, but
it's not something that I canhear all day long, because I've
got something that I've got toget done, and I want to, I want
to be present for what you'retrying to say. So you might put
the boundary of you get 30minutes a day to tell me what's
(10:18):
going on, and then we've got tocontinue working, or whatever it
might be, boundaries are a bigcomponent of being able to
remain autonomous, but alsoremaining autonomous, also
protecting oneself. And the hardpart is, is that other people
look at boundaries as trying tohurt them, and they're not.
They're just there to protect usfor whatever reason. It also
(10:39):
might be that you put your headdown and do your work. If
there's a big project thatyou're working on, or something
that's important, you just kindof got to go and do it. Think
about the boundary andcommunication of the boundary.
People can't read our minds asmuch as we think they can. At
times they can't. No one canread our minds, and we need to
communicate what we need forthat person. Hey, I'm really
(11:00):
busy. Let's chitchat about it onour break or at lunch or happy
hour after work, whatever itmight be. But right now, I can't
do that. So boundaries,communication and also
understanding, where is thelevel of our friendship. There
are times where you havefriendships outside of work, and
then you work together. Thereare times that you start working
(11:21):
together, you build a friendshipat work, and then it builds
outside of work, andunderstanding that those can be
at times need to be two verydifferent types of friendships.
Friendships at work, you'regoing to talk about what needs
to get done, and hey, you're notdoing your part, or hey, I need
more from this. And then thetime outside of work, you might
(11:42):
chit chat a little bit aboutwork, or whatever it might be,
but then it's talking aboutstuff outside of work, so you
need to better under and bereally honest with yourself.
What is our level of friendship?
I've had a ton of work besties.
We didn't hang out much outsideof work, and I knew that, and
that was wonderful. We had agreat time at work, someone I
(12:04):
could complain with or do this,or they could do the same with
me, and we would talk about ourlives, but we didn't hang out as
much for whatever reasons, butthey were still a friendship. So
I recognized who was what. Thenthere were the people that were
work and outside, and you had tolearn to separate them, and when
you separate them, you also haveto learn to not bring it with
(12:24):
you from one to the other. Youhave an outside argument. You
don't bring it to work. You havean in work argument. You don't
take it outside of work. Andthat can be understanding your
level of friendship andunderstanding the importance of
keeping those separate. Thoseare the big things that can help
you to foster friendships thatcan remain positive in many
(12:44):
different ways. I
Dr. D. (12:45):
love those boundaries and things that you suggest
there about keeping theconversations as work friends
about work at work, and keepingthe conversations about outside
of work, outside of work. That'sa really healthy way to deal
with it. You sparked somethingwith me around that conversation
about quote, unquote, negativeNancy, that negative person,
(13:05):
it's really important tomaintain those boundaries around
that, because one people outsidemight look at your relationship
and know that you're closefriends and hear negative Nancy
being down on everything andhaving very negative
perspective, and might group youinto that perception, even if
you don't feel the same way, youmight be perceived in in the
(13:25):
same way as your friend andtheir motivations your friend
may also gone unchecked, mayalso try to speak for you and
speak for their friends and saya lot of us are feeling this
way, even when it might only bethat one person feeling That
way, where they feel empoweredto speak up, even though it's
only their perspective. One ofthe other challenges is that
(13:47):
when you are friends with anegative person, sometimes, as
you said, Dr, K, you've got tosay, Hey, don't bring me into
this. You're bringing me down.
It's affecting me and my work. Ijust need you to get 30 minutes
a day. That suggestion was verygood, but there's also a
responsibility of friendship tosay, hey, negative person,
you're really negative a lot,and that's negatively affecting
the people around you. Maybe youshould change that behavior,
(14:09):
because it's not doing you anygood and it's not doing the
people around you any good. Whydon't we try to find some
constructive ways as your friendto deal with that? Or have you
talked to so and so or have youtaken this action rather than
just complaining about it? Theresponsibility of a friend is to
do the right thing by that otherperson as well. And just saying,
hey, I'll only listen to you for30 minutes, doesn't necessarily
(14:30):
help that friend get throughwhatever it is that they're
going through, especially ifthey're persistently negative
about their situation or thework or people around them. Part
of being a friend is toencourage them to take action.
Have those conversations, try tosolve the problem, take action,
to
Dr. K (14:47):
pull out the Nancy's but the negative Nancy, it can be
difficult to deal with, but youwant to remember, if your
friends ask about it, it mightbe that they're burnt out, just
ask. And if you are starting. Tofeel some of the things that
this person is negative about.
You can also ask yourself, Okay,what's going on with me? Is this
really my feeling, or am I beinginfluenced? Am I getting burnt
(15:07):
out? Am I frustrated with myposition? Am I not What part are
you playing in the negative thatyou are starting to think when I
have moments where I feel like Imight be getting burnt out, I
realized some of my burnout is alevel of either being stuck or
bored. So that's when I take aCE class, or might read a little
bit more up on psychology to belike, Oh, what's out there?
(15:32):
What's interesting to reigniteis when you do something for an
extended period of time, you canget bored or burnt out or
frustrated, or when you feelyou've done everything that you
can, if you're working withsomeone that's negative, or
you're being influenced with thenegativity, it's like, Huh? What
can I learn more? And maybe youhelp that person. Maybe they
don't recognize what's going onwith them. The
Dr. D. (15:55):
other challenge is that we all have friends, but just
because we have friends, wedon't really know everything
about that other person.
Somebody might be having somemental health struggles, or
might have some deep, unresolvedconflict or something going on
in their personal lives thatthey're not comfortable with
sharing, even with their closefriends or family. They might
not even recognize the challengethemselves. They may have some
(16:16):
mental condition that's yetundiagnosed. They might not even
know that they're dealing withsomething. You can't necessarily
understand what's going on inanother person's head. You have
to be very careful about how youallow other people to influence
you positively or negatively.
You have to be responsible foryour own agency. And you bring
(16:38):
up the question of if thatperson's going through something
or always negative. The questionthat I try to ask myself is, I'm
starting to feel negative. Whatcan I do about it? Am I feeling
negative because I'm beinginfluenced by some outside
person or behavior? Is theresomething that I'm doing that I
could be doing differently ifthere's a situation, can I exit
myself from that situation, orcan I take some action to try to
(17:01):
resolve that situation. Am Ihaving all the conversations
that I have if I considered allmy options even to put out on
the table, and am I making theright decisions to try to get
out of this negative headspaceat work or at home or anywhere?
And sometimes it's easier tojust be negative about
something. It's harder to takeaction and actually step up and
have a conversation with aperson that you don't like, or
(17:24):
do something that's really,really difficult, but you know
it needs to get done, or it'sgoing to catch up with you at
some point, and it's easy to beinfluenced by other people who
are having their own situationsthat might be piling up on them,
and being influenced by that andallowing it to affect your mood
or your view or perspective onyour situation, that
Dr. K (17:45):
teamwork, that support, that validation. And something
to remember is that we tend toIt started when we were young,
and I don't think it's somethingthat will ever stop. I don't
always see it as a bad thing,but we do tend to click off. If
you've got stuff in common withpeople you tend to click off.
You know, the people that playedsports in high school tended to
(18:05):
hang out because they played thesports and did all the practices
and everything the dancers orthe cheerleaders or people that
were National Honor Society,because you had common things
that part's not always anegative. It's when you are let
clicked off with another team,within with other team members,
and you don't allow if there's anew team member coming in, you
(18:26):
don't allow them in, you don'tmake them feel comfortable.
That's not going to help yourteam. That's not going to help
the individual friendships. Youneed to give a chance for the
friendship slash team to developat work. And that's a huge
component of remembering, whenyou have someone new coming in,
what do we do with that? Do webring them in as our bestie, or
(18:46):
do we see what they've got? Youknow, maybe you just have a work
friendship with them becausethey're amazing and they know
what they're doing. This
Dr. D. (18:53):
gets to the behavioral science, the psychology concept
of in groups versus out groups.
When you have close friends atwork, it's sometimes you've
developed that level of trustand shorthand communication.
It's very difficult to allowother people to come in. It's
very difficult for other peopleto catch up, develop that same
level of connection,communication and camaraderie.
And so if you're really closefriends with a group of people
(19:14):
at work, a new person comes in,and they might feel like an
outsider, and it's verydifficult for them to feel like
an insider, especially if thegroup of friends all look and
have similar demographics andhave lived a very similar
cultural background, it can feellike to somebody of a different
cultural background that theremight be something else going
(19:35):
on, even if that's not theintention. So these, these are
some real challenges in anorganization. The other topic to
talk about of challenges in anorganization is not all
friendships last. Sometimesthings happen that cause
friendships to fail slowly orfail spectacularly. When you
really dislike somebody becausea friendship has failed and you
(19:56):
still have to work with them,there are a lot. Of consequences
to that
Dr. K (20:01):
as well. First of all, it just becomes so confusing, it
becomes convoluted, and you getcaught between a rock and a hard
place. This is person thatfriendship loved, and you work
together, and maybe it wasawesome, and then all of a
sudden they get your promotion.
Guys were kind of just side byside. Maybe you thought that you
were working harder, or maybeyou've been there longer,
(20:23):
whatever it might be, and thatperson gets the promotion or
gets a raise before you, orwhatever it might be, and it's
hard to what you want to do isyou just want to blame the
immediate which is the personthat just which is the friend,
instead of, hey, what's goingon? Why did my boss Look at
this. What was going on? Whatdid they see that I didn't see?
And that can be difficult. Whydid I get overlooked? And egos
(20:45):
come into play, disappointment,anger, frustration, and maybe
even the expectation that wemight have had, all that goes,
you know, out the window, and webecome so frustrated that we
can't see the person, ourfriend, we can't see them the
way that we saw them before.
Dr. D. (21:05):
When friendships fail, and they can fail for all kinds
of reasons, I think that's areally good work example, a
complicated work example, whenyour friend becomes the boss,
and we'll talk about that injust a second. When a friendship
ends, you go through a grievingprocess. You are sad and angry
sometimes, or it might be angerfirst and then sadness. There's
complicated emotions thathappen. And if you have to sit
(21:29):
in the next office or the nextcubicle or at the next
workstation from that person andsee them every day, that makes
the work environment really,really challenging for everybody
involved, not just the peoplethat are experiencing the
fallout of of whatever theconsequences are, all the people
around them. It certainlydestroys team unity, that
(21:50):
friendship goes from being areal positive to the team to
being a real negative in theteam. You have to live through
that, or you have to leavethrough that. There's really
very few options until you getto the point where neutrality is
met, and that usually takes whenthere's real hurt. That takes a
long time before two peoplebecome neutral towards each
(22:11):
other, rather than having verystrong negative emotions. Which
opens the door we are talkingjust generically about friends
at work. It gets even morecomplicated when the friendship
is between a boss and anemployee or a senior leader in
an organization and someone whois in a less senior position in
(22:31):
an organization. It becomesvery, very challenging. Is
Dr. K (22:34):
a friendship between a senior level position with
someone lower management,whatever position they are below
them, is it appropriate? Was thefriendship developed? I'm a new
person at this place, and all ofa sudden, me and my boss just
found out that we had somethings in common, and we would
talk about it, and then itdeveloped into talking about
more things. Or was it we wereat the same level and then they
(22:56):
got promoted? When a someone isfriends with their boss. How
does that look to other people?
What benefits does someone get?
And we all can be honest, we'veseen it's not easy to be the
boss and then to treat everysingle person at whatever level
they are, exactly the same,especially when you know you're
going to go to someone's houseover the weekend for a barbecue,
(23:17):
the problems that can arise areyou picked for the better roles,
for the better projects, justbecause you're friends with the
boss? Are you the bot, theboss's pet? And then, how does
that affect your relationshipswith your team at the same level
as you a big, huge negativefeedback loop that potentially
can easily be it could take itstime and blow up, or it could
(23:40):
blow up immediately. So thatfriendships with Boss component
can be very, very tricky. I knowI've been friends with managers.
We weren't friends reallyoutside of work, but at work,
they were always like, you'rethe one that I can trust. And
often would come to me. I don'tknow what others felt about
that. No one ever said anything,but I don't know if that ever
(24:01):
affected that.
Dr. D. (24:01):
I know in my leadership journey, I always worked very
hard to keep up what I wouldcall a professional distance.
I've had a few friends at work,but that has been very
infrequent, oftentimes wherepeople think I'm being way too
standoffish with people, becauseI was probably being overly
cautious about maintaining thatprofessional distance between my
(24:22):
team. In my calculation, I'veworked with many really, really
wonderful people as peers, assubordinate and as a leader,
people that I would genuinelywant to be good, close friends
with, and I was always very,very careful, because I always
viewed it in this way. One, whathappens if I have to make a
tough leadership decision? Isthat relationship going to
(24:45):
affect me? And it could affectme in two ways. One, if I am
giving something to somebodythat is my friend, even though
the logic makes sense, will itbe perceived that I'm displaying
favoritism if I don't includethat person in a project or.
Something that's verybeneficial. Am I holding them
back? And am I making thatdecision because we're friends,
and I don't want to be perceivedas giving this person some
(25:07):
something you not only have tothink about the effects and the
feelings of that person, but youcan never really be sure of your
own motivation, and you cannever be sure of the perception
that it sets in the people thatare witnessing that relationship
from the outside, you're almostdamned if you do, damned if you
don't. It doesn't really matterwhat your attention intention
is. There is somebody who couldbe offended, and there is
(25:29):
somebody who's going to thinkfavoritism, and there is
somebody who is going to thinkyou're treating that person
unfairly because of therelationship. And it becomes
even more difficult when thesituation that you brought up Dr
Kate, where somebody is part ofa team, and even if all the
relationships are great andthere's perfect harmony, a
person gets promoted to aleadership role over that team,
because that's where mostmobility happens, happens up
(25:52):
within an organization. Let'sjust assume everybody's really
happy about that decision, notlike the circumstance that we
were talking about earlier,where there was hurt feelings,
but everybody's really happyabout that decision, but still,
that person has to make toughchoices, and that they have to
make really, a really difficultshift in their relationship with
the people around them and thepeople that they're friends with
(26:12):
and the people that they're notfriends with, and manage all
those perceptions. It's veryrisky for that person, and it's
very risky for the people aroundthem, because all of a sudden,
your role has to change.
Sometimes there are decisions,corporate decisions that you
have to enact on that couldcause your relationship to blow
up after the fact. And there'salways going to be that
perception that becausefriendships are involved, that
(26:32):
it's influencing your decision,and it changes your
interpersonal dynamic with thepeople. You go from being a peer
to being somebody in authority.
And is it really fair to say,hey, we were all friends before,
but I can't be friends anylonger. No, it just means that
what you brought up before, Dr Kabout setting boundaries, you
have to set very clearboundaries and say, I have to
(26:54):
internalize. What does this meanfor me now I can't be friends in
the same way at work. We canstill be friends outside of
work, but when we're outside ofwork, we are not talking about
work. Hey, friends, don't pitchme on the things that you want
in the organization outside ofwork, because I'm going to say,
do that in the office. So we'renot doing this outside of work.
I don't want to be influenced.
That's very important to me. Andyour friends should appreciate
(27:16):
and understand
Dr. K (27:18):
hope that they would. It doesn't mean they always would
be an open and honest andsaying, I am at this level now,
I am in this role, be honest. Itdid change how our dynamics at
work are going to be if there'sa dynamic outside of work. No,
it doesn't change the dynamicoutside of work, but it does
change the dynamic at work. I'mgoing to continue to hear what
you have to say, whatever itmight be, but my being able to
(27:41):
water cooler, chit chat, I can'treally go to lunch with you
anymore, and outside of work, Iwant our friendship still, you
say it, it comes out a littlebit more professional. I'm very,
you know, a little bit morelike, Hey, I still want to be
friends, but it's however youare, however the dynamic of your
friendship is as well as whatyou are most comfortable with in
(28:03):
your communication with someone.
But the biggest thing, and Iknow I've said this over and
over, communication,transparency and honesty in any
relationship, is the bestcliche, but is the best policy,
because you don't want someoneto read into something that's
not there, and then that couldhurt their, hurt your
friendship, that could hurt yournot just your friendship, but
(28:26):
that could hurt the workenvironment. And if you are work
colleagues, then you have to beaware of that. Yeah,
Dr. D. (28:34):
I think here's my opinion. My opinion is it's okay
to be friends with people atwork, but you have to have very,
very clear boundaries, you haveto have open communication about
that and be very transparentabout how that relationship is
going to work. I would suggestcreating a living document, a
document where you and yourfriend or friends document those
(28:57):
rules that you're going to liveby as a leader or as friends
within an organization, settingthose clear boundaries, like
work stays at work, friendoutside stuff stays outside.
We're going to keep those veryseparate document those things,
so that when you're tempted, oryour friends are tempted to
bring outside stuff to work, orvice versa, you can go, Hey, we
(29:18):
have a little friendshipdoctrine, don't we? Let's save
this for the weekend, or let'ssave that for the office. And as
you learn things new about yourfriendship, add it to the
document, because then ifsomebody comes to you and says,
Hey, I'm really concerned,because I'm worried your friend
is getting a lot of favor, seemsto be getting preferential
(29:39):
treatment on things, or you seemto be gravitating towards those
ideas more when we're in ameeting, you can reflect and
say, Man, maybe, maybe I am. Ireally need to think about this.
But let me open up the ourfriendship agreement here, our
work friendship agreement, andsee if I've done anything that
might need to change, or ifthere's any. Thing that I hadn't
(30:00):
considered that we need to addto this friendship doctrine, and
I think that would be a reallypractical way if you're going to
engage in friendship at work,sometimes you can't help it.
You're just surrounded by peopleyou like. And for long enough
you become friends, you have tohave something that you can rely
on and remind yourself on. Andif you're a leader, be held
accountable to to make sure thatyou're not violating any
(30:22):
professional boundaries or anyprofessional perceptions.
Dr. K (30:25):
Maybe, if you're just friends with people and you're
on the same level, that's alittle bit different. But when
someone is at a higher level,whatever that might be, where
they have to say something aboutyour your work productivity, or
they have to bring you into theoffice because there's been
their job, then it's importantto be like, Hey, I know that
we're friends. I have moved up.
I'm gonna have to say thesethings. It's not always
(30:48):
personal. Something against yourcharacter, but if you're not
doing what your job isrequiring, what you know that
your job has reached. Know thatif your boss friend comes to you
and says, Listen, you've beenclocking out early, you have to
remind yourself, this isn'tabout me as a human. This is
(31:08):
about what I'm doing at work.
And that's not easy, yeah. And
Dr. D. (31:13):
you also have to maintain yeah 100% and you also
have to maintain confidences,you know, things about other
people, and you can't sharethat, and that is another really
core and important part of that.
I'm not going to share with youeverything. I can't share with
you anything. I can't give youinsider information. Now that
I'm the boss and you as my goodfriend are not going to pressure
(31:33):
me into doing that or ask me todo anything to tell you about
other people's salaries or otherpeople's performance, or inside
baseball going on in the Csuite, or whatever that might
be. It's really important thatthat that confidence is also
maintained, because it'simportant for that
professional's reputation as aleader as well, and a good
(31:54):
friend wouldn't want
Dr. K (31:57):
their whether it's personal or works later,
absolutely so
Dr. D. (32:00):
in closing. Dr K, our friendships at work, our
friendships at work, worth it
Dr. K (32:05):
with boundaries and communication, absolutely. I do
think they are worth it, becauseyou just we spend most of our
time at work. So yes, I do thinkthey are important. I
Dr. D. (32:14):
agree 100% I love the way you said that, yes, with
boundaries. Well, thank you forthat, Dr K, and to all of you
joining us on this journey tothe realm, and
Dr. K (32:24):
I'm Dr K, and we are looking forward to your next
visit to the executive realm. .
Hello Welcome to the realm. I'm dr d,
and I bring the strategy.
Dr. K (00:09):
I'm Dr K, I bring the psychology. We are business
psychologists and your guides tothe executive realm, where we
bring strategy and psychologytogether,
Dr. D. (00:18):
so you can bring your best to your C suite, your teams
and your customers. Today, we'retalking about work friends.
Friendships at work candramatically transform and
influence our professionalexperience. These relationships
bring a host of benefits. Theyboost morale, foster
collaboration and enhance jobsatisfaction. In fact, a Gallup
study found that employees withclose friends at work are seven
(00:40):
times more likely to be engagedin their jobs. This surge in
engagement ignites higherproductivity, elevates customer
service and reduces turnover.
But what are the risks? Failedfriendships can lead to tension
and conflict, undermining teamcohesion and morale. With
friendships between leaders andemployees, these dynamics become
even more complex. Friendshipswith leaders can build trust and
loyalty, but they can also riskfavoritism, blurred boundaries
(01:01):
and difficult power dynamics. Solet's get to work. Dr K, can we
have workplace friendships whilemaintaining professional
integrity?
Dr. K (01:11):
I think it is possible.
There has to be open, honestcommunication when that gets
taken out, or that gets blurred,or that gets misconstrued or not
enough information or accurateor trustful information is out
there, I think then theprofessional part, the integrity
part, as well as the friendshippart, can be completely blown
(01:33):
out of the water, and that cancause
Dr. D. (01:37):
multiple problems. That is a challenge, because you have
this one persona at work. It'sreally close to the real you,
but you have to be a little bitprotective of how people
interpret you. There's a lot ofpolitics. You can't overshare
necessarily. You don'tnecessarily talk about things at
work that you talk about withyour best friend, but if you
have a best friend at work, thatblurs the line a little bit. But
(02:00):
before we get into thechallenges and complications,
why don't we talk about thebenefits of having friends at
work? Absolutely,
Dr. K (02:05):
first off, always, the job depends on what kind of
friendships, when you know thatyour person's going to be there,
or someone that you can laughwith, or the person that you go
take a lunch break with,whatever it might be, whatever
the dynamics are, that doesincrease that moment when you're
at work, when you're not feelingit, but then you're like, Oh my
God, but I got my lunch breakwith my friend. I can laugh. I
(02:28):
can do this. I do believebenefits are extremely
important, and sometimes withworking with people, I think
they forget that they have thosefriendships at work, and they
focus on all the negative partsthat they don't have, and that
gets in the way you can have
Dr. D. (02:44):
conversations with friends that you don't work with
and complain about work or talkabout what your projects are
going on, but you can't reallyconnect with them over that
because it's not a sharedexperience. But when you have
friends at work, you're sharingthose experiences. You have a
level of camaraderie andconnection around a set of
circumstances that take up agood portion of your life,
(03:05):
there's a deeper understanding,or have a common understanding,
of people that they work with,or the culture or the dynamics
of an organization. And studieshave shown that mental health
and well being is actuallyimproved, because when you have
somebody at work that you canreally connect with a real
friend. It reduces stress and itincreases your overall well
(03:25):
being, not to mention when youhave that friendship, that
shorthand, you can reallyincrease collaboration and
teamwork. When you are workingwith people that you really like
and you are genuine friendswith, it makes it easier to
communicate. It makes it easierto trust that would translate to
better collaboration and sharingknowledge and selfishly, for an
(03:46):
organization, having friends atwork makes it more difficult to
leave an organization. If you'reemotionally committed to the
job, that's one thing. You cango work somewhere else. But if
you're really emotionallycommitted to the people, and you
have that high sense of loyaltybecause your friends are at work
and they're not going anywhere,those strong social connections
cause you to really second guesswhether or not you're gonna make
(04:08):
that leap and go somewhere else.
So that has a really favorablebenefit on turnover. Absolutely,
Dr. K (04:13):
I've worked with many people that are sad when someone
leaves and it changes thedynamics at work, or when
they've decided to move on forwhatever reasons they have,
they're sad that they're leavingwork. Let's be real. We've been
developed into being socialcreatures. When you're working
hard and you're in the flow, andthat's all that you have at
(04:34):
work, having that break, knowingthat you have the support,
feeling that someone understandswhat you're going through,
definitely can help managewhatever negative feelings
someone might have, or helpmanage any low points that they
might be having or anyloneliness that they might feel
within their job if they feelthey're the only ones that are
(04:55):
doing it. But then they have afriend that they can talk to,
and then the friend can say,Yeah, you are. Working really
hard. They're feeling validated.
But here I am with this, andwe're doing this together. We're
collaborating. It's alwaysbeneficial to have someone that
can one validate, but also, youknow, to show you what's really
happening, they have thatobjective viewpoint.
Organizations
Dr. D. (05:15):
are changing a lot.
There are new people coming in,there are people leaving. There
are organizational changes.
There are structural changes.
There are very good things thathappen, like winning a big
client, or there are somestressful things that happen,
like changing your softwareplatform. All of those things
create apprehension in people,and having close friends at work
allows shared processing. Thosepeople that are close will think
(05:37):
through the challenge or theopportunity or the excitement,
and it'll actually deepen thatfriendship, but it also helps
somebody process out loud withsomebody else,
Dr. K (05:49):
sometimes, when we're isolated within yourself, that
tends to take control and canlead to a negative place. So
having that friendship or thatteamwork, where you can
collaborate and understand,again, that you're not alone or
that someone else feels the sameway. That it can add to
profitability. It can keepretention high so friendships,
(06:12):
they can be very beneficialagain. It also can have its
risks.
Dr. D. (06:16):
There are downsides of having friends at work, if one
friend starts to develop anegative perspective, or a
negative outlook on anorganization or a situation that
can very quickly spread betweenfriends in that camaraderie. It
can poison people who wouldn'tbe otherwise bothered by
something, but it can benegatively reinforced by one
(06:38):
person going, Wow, I really hatethis person, and then that can
create an in group and out groupbias. All of a sudden, a little
group of friends who worktogether are not working to
collaborate and solve a problem.
They're sticking togetheragainst whatever that problem
is, reinforcing negativethoughts and reinforcing
negative behaviors towards aperson or a situation or an
(06:59):
organizational change. Yeah.
Dr. K (07:03):
And it also can be that one person or a few people,
could be bothered by somethingthat someone else isn't bothered
or isn't privy to, and thatperson could be negatively
influenced without even knowingthat they're being negatively
influenced. And it might not bethat we're having the mean girls
group come in, and they're like,Okay, we're gonna make sure this
person's on our side. But whenwe hear things over and over, we
(07:26):
start going, Oh my gosh. Do Ifeel that way? Do I need to look
at that? And then we startlooking, and we can always find
something to support what we'relooking for, whether or not it's
actual evidence to support whatwe're looking for, we can always
because we can read into it. Wecan have a perspective that just
forms around what we need it toform around. That's where people
(07:48):
need to be autonomous in theirown thinking. Take in what
you're hearing, look, do yourown reconnaissance, and look to
see is okay? Is this somethingthat's happening? How much is
it, to the degree that someoneis saying it's happening, the
intensity, the frequency, or isthat because they have a
negative perception, or theyhave a fearful perception or an
(08:12):
anxious perception? And also weneed to take into consideration
was their work life balance?
Okay? Do they have so muchnegativity going on outside of
work, that something negativeinside is now manifesting
bigger, because they've got somuch going on. And that's where,
again, that autonomy of your ownthoughts and emotions, what are
you experiencing personally?
(08:35):
What are you perceiving? Whatare you seeing? And take that
into consideration you reallywant to take in what's happening
to you. Yeah, you
Dr. D. (08:44):
have to maintain your own internal sense of balance.
Those friends can reallyinfluence you in a negative way,
but they can also influence youin a positive way. If you
experienced something likesexual harassment or witnessed
something unethical, or having aclose friend that you can
confide in and talk to mightactually give you the
encouragement to speak up, raiseyour hand, talk to somebody as
(09:07):
well. Those friendships reallyare a double edged sword. They
can help give you the courageand the insight and the
perspective to take action whereyou might feel restricted or
unsure, because that personunderstands the dynamic and the
culture a little bit better, butthey can also influence you in a
negative way. Is thisinfluencing me in a professional
(09:28):
way? Am I still maintaining myown of autonomy? So I guess
we're talking about theboundaries at this point of
friendships at work. How cansomebody maintain that spirit of
individuality and independencewhile still having a very close
friend or a very close group offriends at work, and still feel
like you're an individualcontributor to the success and
(09:51):
the purpose of the organization,but also value the friendships
around you that you have at workif
Dr. K (09:57):
you are working with, let's say, a. Of Nancy.
Sometimes we're friends withnegative Nancy's might be that
you say, hey, you know, and Iknow you got some struggles, but
it's not something that I canhear all day long, because I've
got something that I've got toget done, and I want to, I want
to be present for what you'retrying to say. So you might put
the boundary of you get 30minutes a day to tell me what's
(10:18):
going on, and then we've got tocontinue working, or whatever it
might be, boundaries are a bigcomponent of being able to
remain autonomous, but alsoremaining autonomous, also
protecting oneself. And the hardpart is, is that other people
look at boundaries as trying tohurt them, and they're not.
They're just there to protect usfor whatever reason. It also
(10:39):
might be that you put your headdown and do your work. If
there's a big project thatyou're working on, or something
that's important, you just kindof got to go and do it. Think
about the boundary andcommunication of the boundary.
People can't read our minds asmuch as we think they can. At
times they can't. No one canread our minds, and we need to
communicate what we need forthat person. Hey, I'm really
(11:00):
busy. Let's chitchat about it onour break or at lunch or happy
hour after work, whatever itmight be. But right now, I can't
do that. So boundaries,communication and also
understanding, where is thelevel of our friendship. There
are times where you havefriendships outside of work, and
then you work together. Thereare times that you start working
(11:21):
together, you build a friendshipat work, and then it builds
outside of work, andunderstanding that those can be
at times need to be two verydifferent types of friendships.
Friendships at work, you'regoing to talk about what needs
to get done, and hey, you're notdoing your part, or hey, I need
more from this. And then thetime outside of work, you might
(11:42):
chit chat a little bit aboutwork, or whatever it might be,
but then it's talking aboutstuff outside of work, so you
need to better under and bereally honest with yourself.
What is our level of friendship?
I've had a ton of work besties.
We didn't hang out much outsideof work, and I knew that, and
that was wonderful. We had agreat time at work, someone I
(12:04):
could complain with or do this,or they could do the same with
me, and we would talk about ourlives, but we didn't hang out as
much for whatever reasons, butthey were still a friendship. So
I recognized who was what. Thenthere were the people that were
work and outside, and you had tolearn to separate them, and when
you separate them, you also haveto learn to not bring it with
(12:24):
you from one to the other. Youhave an outside argument. You
don't bring it to work. You havean in work argument. You don't
take it outside of work. Andthat can be understanding your
level of friendship andunderstanding the importance of
keeping those separate. Thoseare the big things that can help
you to foster friendships thatcan remain positive in many
(12:44):
different ways. I
Dr. D. (12:45):
love those boundaries and things that you suggest
there about keeping theconversations as work friends
about work at work, and keepingthe conversations about outside
of work, outside of work. That'sa really healthy way to deal
with it. You sparked somethingwith me around that conversation
about quote, unquote, negativeNancy, that negative person,
(13:05):
it's really important tomaintain those boundaries around
that, because one people outsidemight look at your relationship
and know that you're closefriends and hear negative Nancy
being down on everything andhaving very negative
perspective, and might group youinto that perception, even if
you don't feel the same way, youmight be perceived in in the
(13:25):
same way as your friend andtheir motivations your friend
may also gone unchecked, mayalso try to speak for you and
speak for their friends and saya lot of us are feeling this
way, even when it might only bethat one person feeling That
way, where they feel empoweredto speak up, even though it's
only their perspective. One ofthe other challenges is that
(13:47):
when you are friends with anegative person, sometimes, as
you said, Dr, K, you've got tosay, Hey, don't bring me into
this. You're bringing me down.
It's affecting me and my work. Ijust need you to get 30 minutes
a day. That suggestion was verygood, but there's also a
responsibility of friendship tosay, hey, negative person,
you're really negative a lot,and that's negatively affecting
the people around you. Maybe youshould change that behavior,
(14:09):
because it's not doing you anygood and it's not doing the
people around you any good. Whydon't we try to find some
constructive ways as your friendto deal with that? Or have you
talked to so and so or have youtaken this action rather than
just complaining about it? Theresponsibility of a friend is to
do the right thing by that otherperson as well. And just saying,
hey, I'll only listen to you for30 minutes, doesn't necessarily
(14:30):
help that friend get throughwhatever it is that they're
going through, especially ifthey're persistently negative
about their situation or thework or people around them. Part
of being a friend is toencourage them to take action.
Have those conversations, try tosolve the problem, take action,
to
Dr. K (14:47):
pull out the Nancy's but the negative Nancy, it can be
difficult to deal with, but youwant to remember, if your
friends ask about it, it mightbe that they're burnt out, just
ask. And if you are starting. Tofeel some of the things that
this person is negative about.
You can also ask yourself, Okay,what's going on with me? Is this
really my feeling, or am I beinginfluenced? Am I getting burnt
(15:07):
out? Am I frustrated with myposition? Am I not What part are
you playing in the negative thatyou are starting to think when I
have moments where I feel like Imight be getting burnt out, I
realized some of my burnout is alevel of either being stuck or
bored. So that's when I take aCE class, or might read a little
bit more up on psychology to belike, Oh, what's out there?
(15:32):
What's interesting to reigniteis when you do something for an
extended period of time, you canget bored or burnt out or
frustrated, or when you feelyou've done everything that you
can, if you're working withsomeone that's negative, or
you're being influenced with thenegativity, it's like, Huh? What
can I learn more? And maybe youhelp that person. Maybe they
don't recognize what's going onwith them. The
Dr. D. (15:55):
other challenge is that we all have friends, but just
because we have friends, wedon't really know everything
about that other person.
Somebody might be having somemental health struggles, or
might have some deep, unresolvedconflict or something going on
in their personal lives thatthey're not comfortable with
sharing, even with their closefriends or family. They might
not even recognize the challengethemselves. They may have some
(16:16):
mental condition that's yetundiagnosed. They might not even
know that they're dealing withsomething. You can't necessarily
understand what's going on inanother person's head. You have
to be very careful about how youallow other people to influence
you positively or negatively.
You have to be responsible foryour own agency. And you bring
(16:38):
up the question of if thatperson's going through something
or always negative. The questionthat I try to ask myself is, I'm
starting to feel negative. Whatcan I do about it? Am I feeling
negative because I'm beinginfluenced by some outside
person or behavior? Is theresomething that I'm doing that I
could be doing differently ifthere's a situation, can I exit
myself from that situation, orcan I take some action to try to
(17:01):
resolve that situation. Am Ihaving all the conversations
that I have if I considered allmy options even to put out on
the table, and am I making theright decisions to try to get
out of this negative headspaceat work or at home or anywhere?
And sometimes it's easier tojust be negative about
something. It's harder to takeaction and actually step up and
have a conversation with aperson that you don't like, or
(17:24):
do something that's really,really difficult, but you know
it needs to get done, or it'sgoing to catch up with you at
some point, and it's easy to beinfluenced by other people who
are having their own situationsthat might be piling up on them,
and being influenced by that andallowing it to affect your mood
or your view or perspective onyour situation, that
Dr. K (17:45):
teamwork, that support, that validation. And something
to remember is that we tend toIt started when we were young,
and I don't think it's somethingthat will ever stop. I don't
always see it as a bad thing,but we do tend to click off. If
you've got stuff in common withpeople you tend to click off.
You know, the people that playedsports in high school tended to
(18:05):
hang out because they played thesports and did all the practices
and everything the dancers orthe cheerleaders or people that
were National Honor Society,because you had common things
that part's not always anegative. It's when you are let
clicked off with another team,within with other team members,
and you don't allow if there's anew team member coming in, you
(18:26):
don't allow them in, you don'tmake them feel comfortable.
That's not going to help yourteam. That's not going to help
the individual friendships. Youneed to give a chance for the
friendship slash team to developat work. And that's a huge
component of remembering, whenyou have someone new coming in,
what do we do with that? Do webring them in as our bestie, or
(18:46):
do we see what they've got? Youknow, maybe you just have a work
friendship with them becausethey're amazing and they know
what they're doing. This
Dr. D. (18:53):
gets to the behavioral science, the psychology concept
of in groups versus out groups.
When you have close friends atwork, it's sometimes you've
developed that level of trustand shorthand communication.
It's very difficult to allowother people to come in. It's
very difficult for other peopleto catch up, develop that same
level of connection,communication and camaraderie.
And so if you're really closefriends with a group of people
(19:14):
at work, a new person comes in,and they might feel like an
outsider, and it's verydifficult for them to feel like
an insider, especially if thegroup of friends all look and
have similar demographics andhave lived a very similar
cultural background, it can feellike to somebody of a different
cultural background that theremight be something else going
(19:35):
on, even if that's not theintention. So these, these are
some real challenges in anorganization. The other topic to
talk about of challenges in anorganization is not all
friendships last. Sometimesthings happen that cause
friendships to fail slowly orfail spectacularly. When you
really dislike somebody becausea friendship has failed and you
(19:56):
still have to work with them,there are a lot. Of consequences
to that
Dr. K (20:01):
as well. First of all, it just becomes so confusing, it
becomes convoluted, and you getcaught between a rock and a hard
place. This is person thatfriendship loved, and you work
together, and maybe it wasawesome, and then all of a
sudden they get your promotion.
Guys were kind of just side byside. Maybe you thought that you
were working harder, or maybeyou've been there longer,
(20:23):
whatever it might be, and thatperson gets the promotion or
gets a raise before you, orwhatever it might be, and it's
hard to what you want to do isyou just want to blame the
immediate which is the personthat just which is the friend,
instead of, hey, what's goingon? Why did my boss Look at
this. What was going on? Whatdid they see that I didn't see?
And that can be difficult. Whydid I get overlooked? And egos
(20:45):
come into play, disappointment,anger, frustration, and maybe
even the expectation that wemight have had, all that goes,
you know, out the window, and webecome so frustrated that we
can't see the person, ourfriend, we can't see them the
way that we saw them before.
Dr. D. (21:05):
When friendships fail, and they can fail for all kinds
of reasons, I think that's areally good work example, a
complicated work example, whenyour friend becomes the boss,
and we'll talk about that injust a second. When a friendship
ends, you go through a grievingprocess. You are sad and angry
sometimes, or it might be angerfirst and then sadness. There's
complicated emotions thathappen. And if you have to sit
(21:29):
in the next office or the nextcubicle or at the next
workstation from that person andsee them every day, that makes
the work environment really,really challenging for everybody
involved, not just the peoplethat are experiencing the
fallout of of whatever theconsequences are, all the people
around them. It certainlydestroys team unity, that
(21:50):
friendship goes from being areal positive to the team to
being a real negative in theteam. You have to live through
that, or you have to leavethrough that. There's really
very few options until you getto the point where neutrality is
met, and that usually takes whenthere's real hurt. That takes a
long time before two peoplebecome neutral towards each
(22:11):
other, rather than having verystrong negative emotions. Which
opens the door we are talkingjust generically about friends
at work. It gets even morecomplicated when the friendship
is between a boss and anemployee or a senior leader in
an organization and someone whois in a less senior position in
(22:31):
an organization. It becomesvery, very challenging. Is
Dr. K (22:34):
a friendship between a senior level position with
someone lower management,whatever position they are below
them, is it appropriate? Was thefriendship developed? I'm a new
person at this place, and all ofa sudden, me and my boss just
found out that we had somethings in common, and we would
talk about it, and then itdeveloped into talking about
more things. Or was it we wereat the same level and then they
(22:56):
got promoted? When a someone isfriends with their boss. How
does that look to other people?
What benefits does someone get?
And we all can be honest, we'veseen it's not easy to be the
boss and then to treat everysingle person at whatever level
they are, exactly the same,especially when you know you're
going to go to someone's houseover the weekend for a barbecue,
(23:17):
the problems that can arise areyou picked for the better roles,
for the better projects, justbecause you're friends with the
boss? Are you the bot, theboss's pet? And then, how does
that affect your relationshipswith your team at the same level
as you a big, huge negativefeedback loop that potentially
can easily be it could take itstime and blow up, or it could
(23:40):
blow up immediately. So thatfriendships with Boss component
can be very, very tricky. I knowI've been friends with managers.
We weren't friends reallyoutside of work, but at work,
they were always like, you'rethe one that I can trust. And
often would come to me. I don'tknow what others felt about
that. No one ever said anything,but I don't know if that ever
(24:01):
affected that.
Dr. D. (24:01):
I know in my leadership journey, I always worked very
hard to keep up what I wouldcall a professional distance.
I've had a few friends at work,but that has been very
infrequent, oftentimes wherepeople think I'm being way too
standoffish with people, becauseI was probably being overly
cautious about maintaining thatprofessional distance between my
(24:22):
team. In my calculation, I'veworked with many really, really
wonderful people as peers, assubordinate and as a leader,
people that I would genuinelywant to be good, close friends
with, and I was always very,very careful, because I always
viewed it in this way. One, whathappens if I have to make a
tough leadership decision? Isthat relationship going to
(24:45):
affect me? And it could affectme in two ways. One, if I am
giving something to somebodythat is my friend, even though
the logic makes sense, will itbe perceived that I'm displaying
favoritism if I don't includethat person in a project or.
Something that's verybeneficial. Am I holding them
back? And am I making thatdecision because we're friends,
and I don't want to be perceivedas giving this person some
(25:07):
something you not only have tothink about the effects and the
feelings of that person, but youcan never really be sure of your
own motivation, and you cannever be sure of the perception
that it sets in the people thatare witnessing that relationship
from the outside, you're almostdamned if you do, damned if you
don't. It doesn't really matterwhat your attention intention
is. There is somebody who couldbe offended, and there is
(25:29):
somebody who's going to thinkfavoritism, and there is
somebody who is going to thinkyou're treating that person
unfairly because of therelationship. And it becomes
even more difficult when thesituation that you brought up Dr
Kate, where somebody is part ofa team, and even if all the
relationships are great andthere's perfect harmony, a
person gets promoted to aleadership role over that team,
because that's where mostmobility happens, happens up
(25:52):
within an organization. Let'sjust assume everybody's really
happy about that decision, notlike the circumstance that we
were talking about earlier,where there was hurt feelings,
but everybody's really happyabout that decision, but still,
that person has to make toughchoices, and that they have to
make really, a really difficultshift in their relationship with
the people around them and thepeople that they're friends with
(26:12):
and the people that they're notfriends with, and manage all
those perceptions. It's veryrisky for that person, and it's
very risky for the people aroundthem, because all of a sudden,
your role has to change.
Sometimes there are decisions,corporate decisions that you
have to enact on that couldcause your relationship to blow
up after the fact. And there'salways going to be that
perception that becausefriendships are involved, that
(26:32):
it's influencing your decision,and it changes your
interpersonal dynamic with thepeople. You go from being a peer
to being somebody in authority.
And is it really fair to say,hey, we were all friends before,
but I can't be friends anylonger. No, it just means that
what you brought up before, Dr Kabout setting boundaries, you
have to set very clearboundaries and say, I have to
(26:54):
internalize. What does this meanfor me now I can't be friends in
the same way at work. We canstill be friends outside of
work, but when we're outside ofwork, we are not talking about
work. Hey, friends, don't pitchme on the things that you want
in the organization outside ofwork, because I'm going to say,
do that in the office. So we'renot doing this outside of work.
I don't want to be influenced.
That's very important to me. Andyour friends should appreciate
(27:16):
and understand
Dr. K (27:18):
hope that they would. It doesn't mean they always would
be an open and honest andsaying, I am at this level now,
I am in this role, be honest. Itdid change how our dynamics at
work are going to be if there'sa dynamic outside of work. No,
it doesn't change the dynamicoutside of work, but it does
change the dynamic at work. I'mgoing to continue to hear what
you have to say, whatever itmight be, but my being able to
(27:41):
water cooler, chit chat, I can'treally go to lunch with you
anymore, and outside of work, Iwant our friendship still, you
say it, it comes out a littlebit more professional. I'm very,
you know, a little bit morelike, Hey, I still want to be
friends, but it's however youare, however the dynamic of your
friendship is as well as whatyou are most comfortable with in
(28:03):
your communication with someone.
But the biggest thing, and Iknow I've said this over and
over, communication,transparency and honesty in any
relationship, is the bestcliche, but is the best policy,
because you don't want someoneto read into something that's
not there, and then that couldhurt their, hurt your
friendship, that could hurt yournot just your friendship, but
(28:26):
that could hurt the workenvironment. And if you are work
colleagues, then you have to beaware of that. Yeah,
Dr. D. (28:34):
I think here's my opinion. My opinion is it's okay
to be friends with people atwork, but you have to have very,
very clear boundaries, you haveto have open communication about
that and be very transparentabout how that relationship is
going to work. I would suggestcreating a living document, a
document where you and yourfriend or friends document those
(28:57):
rules that you're going to liveby as a leader or as friends
within an organization, settingthose clear boundaries, like
work stays at work, friendoutside stuff stays outside.
We're going to keep those veryseparate document those things,
so that when you're tempted, oryour friends are tempted to
bring outside stuff to work, orvice versa, you can go, Hey, we
(29:18):
have a little friendshipdoctrine, don't we? Let's save
this for the weekend, or let'ssave that for the office. And as
you learn things new about yourfriendship, add it to the
document, because then ifsomebody comes to you and says,
Hey, I'm really concerned,because I'm worried your friend
is getting a lot of favor, seemsto be getting preferential
(29:39):
treatment on things, or you seemto be gravitating towards those
ideas more when we're in ameeting, you can reflect and
say, Man, maybe, maybe I am. Ireally need to think about this.
But let me open up the ourfriendship agreement here, our
work friendship agreement, andsee if I've done anything that
might need to change, or ifthere's any. Thing that I hadn't
(30:00):
considered that we need to addto this friendship doctrine, and
I think that would be a reallypractical way if you're going to
engage in friendship at work,sometimes you can't help it.
You're just surrounded by peopleyou like. And for long enough
you become friends, you have tohave something that you can rely
on and remind yourself on. Andif you're a leader, be held
accountable to to make sure thatyou're not violating any
(30:22):
professional boundaries or anyprofessional perceptions.
Dr. K (30:25):
Maybe, if you're just friends with people and you're
on the same level, that's alittle bit different. But when
someone is at a higher level,whatever that might be, where
they have to say something aboutyour your work productivity, or
they have to bring you into theoffice because there's been
their job, then it's importantto be like, Hey, I know that
we're friends. I have moved up.
I'm gonna have to say thesethings. It's not always
(30:48):
personal. Something against yourcharacter, but if you're not
doing what your job isrequiring, what you know that
your job has reached. Know thatif your boss friend comes to you
and says, Listen, you've beenclocking out early, you have to
remind yourself, this isn'tabout me as a human. This is
(31:08):
about what I'm doing at work.
And that's not easy, yeah. And
Dr. D. (31:13):
you also have to maintain yeah 100% and you also
have to maintain confidences,you know, things about other
people, and you can't sharethat, and that is another really
core and important part of that.
I'm not going to share with youeverything. I can't share with
you anything. I can't give youinsider information. Now that
I'm the boss and you as my goodfriend are not going to pressure
(31:33):
me into doing that or ask me todo anything to tell you about
other people's salaries or otherpeople's performance, or inside
baseball going on in the Csuite, or whatever that might
be. It's really important thatthat that confidence is also
maintained, because it'simportant for that
professional's reputation as aleader as well, and a good
(31:54):
friend wouldn't want
Dr. K (31:57):
their whether it's personal or works later,
absolutely so
Dr. D. (32:00):
in closing. Dr K, our friendships at work, our
friendships at work, worth it
Dr. K (32:05):
with boundaries and communication, absolutely. I do
think they are worth it, becauseyou just we spend most of our
time at work. So yes, I do thinkthey are important. I
Dr. D. (32:14):
agree 100% I love the way you said that, yes, with
boundaries. Well, thank you forthat, Dr K, and to all of you
joining us on this journey tothe realm, and
Dr. K (32:24):
I'm Dr K, and we are looking forward to your next
visit to the executive realm. .
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