July 2, 2025 • 30 mins
Your intuition speaks, but are you listening? In this soul-stirring conversation, Shelley and Heather explore what they call "ancient remembering" – that profound sense of recognition when something resonates deep within us, awakening wisdom we've always possessed but somehow forgotten.
The hosts navigate the delicate balance between external authority and inner knowing, exploring how many of us feel caught between obedience to religious rules and trust in our own sovereignty. Drawing from scripture, mystical wisdom, and their own spiritual journeys, they suggest that perhaps rules were only ever meant to be placeholders until we could be guided by the Spirit from within.
What makes this exploration particularly powerful is their radical redefinition of oneness. Rather than a vague spiritual concept, they frame oneness as our birthright – the natural state from which we've been separated through religious conditioning and ego-driven thinking. Jesus himself demonstrated this path by standing in solidarity with outcasts, challenging rigid religious structures, and inviting followers into a more expansive understanding of divine love.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when they discuss wisdom as a feminine presence (Sophia) who was with God from the beginning of creation. Could our world's struggles stem from failing to consult her perspective? Through their dialogue emerges a vision of spiritual practice centered on discernment rather than blind adherence – where true freedom creates blessings that extend to everyone, not just ourselves.
Ready to trust your inner knowing? Join Shelley and Heather at their Wednesday "Table" gatherings to continue exploring these transformative concepts alongside others walking this path of expansion and liberation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good afternoon.
Heather Drake Welcome.
Good afternoon.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Shelley Shepard.
You said hold on, this is goingto be a bumpy run, or at least
we'll put our seatbelts on andit's full of excitement.
So it's a roller coaster ridethat we're inviting our
listeners on, but it's going tobe a good one.
It's exciting anyway.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, it is exciting and yeah, you never know where
we're going to land this thing.
Sometimes we just start talkingand you know know spirit shows
up and takes us anotherdirection.
But it's always good to have aconversation with you about
these beautiful pieces that wehold and also that are shaping
(00:57):
us right, like we don't we don'treally have this all figured
out, right right.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Oh 100%.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
In this space of remembering.
Yes, talk to us about thatancient remembering.
I know you're just like readyto Ancient remembering what?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
is that I like the idea of the term an ancient
remembering, because there arethings that happen and stir in
our souls or stir within us.
When you hear something or yousee something or you sense
something, and then it feelslike, oh, I remember, I remember
that good, I remember that I amsupposed to trust myself.
(01:34):
I remember that I am supposedto contribute to the flourishing
of all people everywhere.
It feels to me again like asacred remembering, like when we
go back and rehearse ourbelovedness, when we go back and
remember, through ceremony orthrough witness or through
baptism or through whateverritual we're performing,
(01:55):
anointing that we remember, oh,we are the holders of this
ancient story, this ancientpresence, this eternal creator,
and that we're a part ofeverything, this oneness that
we're called into, that we arecalled into oneness not to a
thing, but to creation, living,breathing, growing, expanding.
(02:20):
This is like when we look atthe Hubble telescope images it's
further and bigger and just.
We stand in awe of each otherand of things and presence and
go.
Yes, yes, this is not minuscule.
What we're asked to be a partof this is expansive.
These are the galaxies.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You mentioned a word oneness and I want to linger
with you there for just a littlebit.
It's kind of a hot topic for usright now, but I wonder if a
few weeks ago we did a podcaston laying down sin, and once we
lay that down, do we seeourselves as more one with God,
(03:03):
with Christ, with Spirit?
Is that how that works?
Or are we constantly battlingbetween I think I'm loved, but I
did these things.
I think I'm loved, but I thinkthat way?
I think I'm loved, but I justhad words for the person in the
car in front of me.
Where does this oneness trapezefrom?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
In my understanding as it is right now, oneness is
actually, I think, an invitationinto a transcendent thought.
That returning to the good, orreturning to the source of who
we are, that we are made in theimage and we are made in the
likeness but we are also madefrom God, that we are love, and
(03:49):
when we can acknowledge and whenwe can come back to the fact
that God invites us into God'sself and God is this creator,
god is this magnificent spiritinviting us back home, back to
our true selves.
That to me, is the onenessbetween us and all people.
(04:10):
In our very narrow, like short,human brain, we want to know
what makes us different and whatthe spirit is asking us to do
is remember what makes us one.
Yes, yes, do.
Is remember what makes us one.
Yes, yes, remember thewholeness, remember the
sacredness, remember the beauty,remember the good, when
(04:35):
everything in our life has beengiven to us to kind of chop up
and confine all of the beautyand the goodness and said you
can have this but no more.
And I think our souls are soexpansive and so beautiful and
we have to learn how to take offall of the stops and be able to
say what is it like for me tounderstand that my intention to
(04:57):
see, to try to see a unity oroneness with all.
That's what the work ofPentecost is.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's what the work of the Holy Spirit is.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That's what the work of the Holy Spirit is that we
could understand each other whenwe couldn't before.
We couldn't remember why what Iwant to do is different or
better than what you want to do,and then go.
Oh, I remember that there's onework, and it's God's work and
there's one kingdom and it'slove's kingdom and we're not
building many kingdoms and manyempires over here.
(05:27):
Our intention is to buildlove's kingdom so that every
single person knows that theyare wanted and lives in the
freedom and the flourishing ofthat beautiful kingdom.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I love that image that you just created for us to
see everyone as we're like eachother, right, yes, there is no
us or them Like.
I wonder if the tipping pointof Jesus's work, as we know it
(05:58):
ourselves, was this oneness, wasyou know there is no separation
.
Oneness, was you know there isno separation.
And I started wondering also ifthis was Mary Magdalene's
understanding as she walked withhim, like she understood that
this is really what Jesus isabout and you've said this
(06:21):
before.
I've heard you say this, Ithink, from the story of John
God, make us one, make us allone as we are one.
Meaning this relationship thathe had with spirit, with himself
, with other people, was topoint us in a direction and
these are your words.
I've heard you use them beforetoo is this was our birthright.
(06:41):
Oneness is our birthright.
This is what we were createdfor.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Absolutely.
And these are the kind ofthings when we experience spirit
or the presence of light in us,when some people experience it
in beautiful times, where musicsometimes allows us to enter a
transcendence or a portal, andyou actually feel the energy and
you know that you have had anencounter.
(07:08):
Maybe you don't know what theencounter was, but you know that
you had an encounter and thatsomehow some part of you is
transformed.
And that is the intention orthe gift, or what we understand
of the spirit.
Is transformation that we wouldbecome our true selves, our
whole selves, that we wouldremember, that we would wake up,
(07:30):
that we would awaken to loveand that we remember how
powerful we are, but not in apower in any way that dominates
or excludes, but a power thatbrings us together, a power that
returns us to our true selves.
And to say that there aremoments where people can
(07:50):
experience it, not only throughmusic, through prayer, through
meditation, sometimes being inthe presence of another person
who is connected to God, andsomehow their connection allows
you a connection.
Those kind of moments inpresence absolutely transform us
, and I think that they do thatoutside of our knowing, outside
(08:12):
of the thoughts in our mentalbrain, but we have that deep
inner heart, that inner knowing,and I think that's one of the
things that I would like to talkabout, at least to invite the
witness of someone listening toconsider that you can trust
yourself, that your innerknowing, that place in someone's
(08:33):
gut that tells them yes, thisis the way, even though a rule
would say something different.
And I think Jesus shows us thispath.
You have heard it say unto you,but I say and it's more
expansive and less rules.
And people panic when you saythat there are less rules
because again there've beenstraw men and people said, well
(08:55):
then you know people are goingto run amok.
No, no, when we return to love,love is pure and God's love is
limitless and we're invited intolimitless love.
And what would it look like forthe whole world if we stayed in
this ascended thought that loveis limitless.
We're not going to outlovesomeone else.
There's not less love for me,because there's all love for you
(09:15):
.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
You know.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So this idea of following the spirit, trusting
yourself, and if you don't trustyourself or you can't trust
yourself, then, you know, getsome help, and I mean maybe a
therapist, but maybe a spiritualdirector or someone who can
help you.
Or sometimes in a goodChristian community there's
somebody else who trusts theirown discernment and can teach
(09:38):
you how to trust the discernment, because sometimes what we've
been offered is a bunch ofpeople who tell you that you
can't trust yourself, you don'tknow, you shouldn't question.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah, we have forgotten how to trust ourselves
and how to trust our knowing.
More times than not, we pushthat aside, whether it's to
intuition or just a thought.
We seem to chase it away, maybeas women, maybe as humans.
(10:07):
Maybe all of us do a little bithumans.
Maybe all of us do a little bit.
But I want to read somethingthat a friend of mine on
Substack offered today.
This is from Esther Joy Goetzand this is a quote from her
post.
Today I am caught, like so manyof us, between obedience and
(10:31):
sovereignty, between outerauthority and inner knowing,
between follow the rules or elseand follow your wisdom and see
what unfolds.
I read that and I was like yes,yes and yes, we're caught, or
(10:51):
maybe even stuck in this place.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
You know, yes to what you're saying.
But also I don't know if ourreligious traditions,
christianity and whatever aperson may be following have
given us the rights ofinitiation.
And I think that's where we'vebeen lacking, where we're
initiated into a trust.
(11:15):
For, you know, I think there'smany phases of a human person's
thing, where you know at 12 andthen at 21, and then we have
these rights of initiation wherecome up into adulthood or come
into, you know, womanhood,manhood.
There's those, there are somerights.
But I believe in our religioustradition we've forgotten how
(11:37):
important ceremony is to be ableto tell someone you can trust
them from that quote.
But then it also reminded me ofsome scripture that said you
know the law is was onlysupposed to be a placeholder.
That the law was only supposedto be a placeholder, obedience
was only supposed to be untilthe spirit.
You only have to have a ruleuntil the spirit is within you
(12:00):
and then the rules no longerapply.
But it's easy to keep people insome kind of queue or straight
line if you know how to controlthem, to be able to say to
someone be led by your spirit.
It's not a free-for-all, it'snot saying be led by your ego,
be led by your selfishness, beled by the fruit of bad behavior
(12:24):
, but be led by who you trulyare, to allow the spirit of
Christ, that same spirit thatwent about doing good and
freeing all those who wereoppressed, that spirit lives in
you too.
So do good with everything,make choices.
I love the quote that you readbecause she said but wisdom, and
how does a person gain wisdom?
(12:44):
Not just a rule, because rulesdon't fit every situation, but
wisdom knows all things, and sowhen we have the presence, when
we listen to the spirit, when weallow, wisdom knows all things.
And so when we have thepresence, when we listen to the
spirit, when we allow wisdom toguide us, so I think you know
somebody listening might saywell then, where did I receive
my wisdom from?
How have I been initiated intofollowing wisdom?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
into gaining wisdom and trusting wisdom.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I think all of these are beautiful questions.
Where did the wisdom come from?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
patriarchal.
No right, no, no wisdom thereimmediately, no heather
immediately, no, no patriarchy.
However, um, I personally havecome to understand and believe
that wisdom was with God in thebeginning, in the created, an
originator of all thought, thedeepest part of the universe she
(13:43):
held.
If you fast forward to whotalked about wisdom in First
Testament, a lot wisdom in firsttestament, a lot um a man, of
course attributed to uh to kingsolomon in many ways.
Above all, get wisdom in all ofyour heading.
(14:04):
Get her, yeah, and she willadorn your neck yeah, yes
presence.
Yeah, shekinah sophia spirit,maybe, maybe that's.
I'm just going to whisper thisbecause maybe, if I get softer,
people will lean in, but maybethat's why we are where we are
(14:26):
in our world, in our culture.
Maybe we're not asking wisdomwhat she thinks, maybe we're not
.
Maybe our posture is well, I'mjust going to go down to the bar
, to the local bar, and I'mgoing to get my wisdom there.
Well, certainly you're going toget some kind of wisdom, you
know sitting there, and maybeit's from your friends, maybe
(14:50):
it's like cheers, you know,everybody knows your name.
But then where do you take thatwisdom?
How does that transform you?
How does it help you rememberwith that ancient knowing that
you just described here in thebeginning?
How do we get to that ancientknowing that we've never been
disconnected, even when thestory reminds us that we've
(15:14):
never been disconnected, evenwhen the story reminds us that
we messed up?
We need to get rid of thatstory.
We need to write a better story, and you and I have talked
about that.
How do we write a better storythan the story of the garden
where we lost our ancientknowing?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
We want to pause and take a moment and let you know
how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
I think the invitation is torewrite the story from the
(15:55):
perspective of illusion or ofloss.
I think there's a differentalways a different point in the
story that says you can make thebeautiful the story.
You can return to the good, andI think that's certainly
something that Mary Magdaleneknew how to do, and I'm sure the
mother of James, because she'salways in there, and Mary, the
(16:16):
mother of Jesus, and I'm surethese women had a practice that
reminded them of what Jesus was.
Because here's the beauty ofwhat Jesus tells us when people
actually hear the words of Jesus, there is an ancient knowing,
not a bunch of rules thatreligion has told them, but the
words of Jesus that say are youtired, are you worn?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
out.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Are you burnt out on religion?
Come to me and I will show youhow to live.
That's really what the Spiritis inviting us into the path of
Jesus, shows us how to live andit is in communion with the
Spirit.
Is inviting us into the path ofJesus, shows us how to live,
and it is in communion with theSpirit.
It is in full relationship withthe Spirit.
So we're invited to that samething that we would have full
(17:03):
access to the ancient knowing,to the wisdom that has led not
only Jesus but others into thefullness of what God has for
them, the fullness of the world.
Jesus said I'm going to pray andthe Father will send you the
Spirit and the Spirit will livein you, and greater works will
you do than these.
Jesus offered us expansion.
(17:25):
Jesus offered us the Spirit.
I'm going to empower you tolive in the Spirit, the Spirit.
I'm going to empower you tolive in the Spirit, and that
means that you might have to usethe Spirit to expand the way
that you think so that you cansee the wisdom of God or join
with what the Spirit is doing inthe kingdom that is so close,
(17:46):
it's even in our mouth, and togive up the rigidity of rules.
You know, in some parts of theNew Testament there's this idea
too that says that the rules arejust a schoolmaster.
When you're an adult you don'tneed the schoolmaster to tell
you anymore.
You know, the Spirit will tellus that's unloving.
(18:08):
Don't say that.
Or the Spirit will show us andbe able to say we can't make
this law because this oppressespeople.
You know, you don't have tohave something written in on
paper or on a rule book when theSpirit has been given to us and
has been written in our hearts.
So Jesus again offers us thisway of saying you have to
(18:29):
unlearn.
You can unlearn if you want togo up higher.
This life of repentance means Igive up thinking that this is
the difference between us andthis is why I'm better than you,
or this is the differencebetween us and this is why we
have God's approval and you donot.
And this idea that the Spiritis drawing us into where we are
(18:50):
one is an embracing of thediversity and the creativeness
of God among us in all things,of God among us in all things,
and the expression that we'renot afraid of different
expressions, that we actually,by the Spirit, you know, by
wisdom's, calling us into abigger love.
(19:15):
It's beautiful how, in thesemoments of conversation, it
feels like we could actuallysolve the world's problems, if
only you listened to the wisdom.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yes, where's the wisdom?
And I think in Esther's piecetoday on Substack it was the
word caught stood out to me,Like we're caught between what
we believe to know in our ownbeing.
(19:41):
We're caught to believesomething else or act a
different way.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I loved the imagery that she used as well.
That caught imagery stood outto me because I have been caught
.
I have been caught in barbedwire, I have been caught in
place where I had intention togo somewhere else, but there was
an outside, somethingpreventing me.
And I think what has preventedor what is preventing many of us
(20:07):
are systems or thoughts orprincipalities or ways of
believing, and I think what thespirit is inviting us to right
now is to give up these limitingbeliefs.
To find your foot caught insomething and then invite the
Spirit to come and dislodge youor take off the slave bands or
(20:27):
release the fox trap, whateverit is that keeps us there, these
ideas of it's not okay oranything that limits us or
limits someone else or has uskeep someone else in bondage.
Jesus came so that we wouldhave life and have it to the
full, and the fullness of God'slife is not just for us, it's
(20:48):
for the whole world.
Until we're all living in thatfullness, none of us are.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, you and I and table participants are reading
the Eye of the Heart right nowby Cynthia Bergeau, on
Wednesdays as we gather and meet, and there were two words
conscious laboring andintentional suffering.
That she says that these twopillars are really the tipping
(21:17):
point of Christianity, thatthese are the ways that we begin
to understand what the point ofChrist was intended in the
world, and not the kind ofsuffering where, you know, on
(21:37):
this earthly realm that weexperience, that we experience,
you know, sometimes on a dailyor regular basis, either through
health or social constructs oreven family or relationships.
That kind of suffering is, ispart of this world.
But this conscious suffering ofmoving ourself to this ancient
(21:59):
knowing, this place that youjust described to us, that we
have forgotten, sometimes feelslike suffering because we are
unlearning what religion hastaught us, we are unlearning
what Christianity has told us,we are unlearning has told us,
(22:25):
we are unlearning the way thatwe thought we knew of Jesus, and
there's some kind ofintentional suffering of letting
that ego fall out, of layingdown the religion, of getting
rid of these forces of us andthem, and sometimes it feels
like suffering, but it's the way.
It's one of the two pillars, inher opinion, right In her
(22:46):
opinion, it's one of the two.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
But I also remind you that, since we are following
Jesus, if one would look at hislife as what is given to us in
account in scripture and againI'm reminded of what John john
said of the works of christ thatwere done the world could not
contain all the books, right,that would have to be written.
So absolutely only this is notall that was done and we can use
(23:11):
our holy imagination and go onthat.
But you would see in jesus'slife, intentional suffering, all
the time In oneness with theperson who is an outcast, by
touching the leper, by havingconversations with the women, by
empowering the women, that isintentional suffering to give up
(23:32):
a place of patriarchal ego andsay it is in the oneness that I
experience the Father, that Iexperience the family of God.
It is in my solidarity with thepoor and in eating food with
people who are cast out.
That is the way of Jesus'intentional suffering since the
(23:54):
very beginning.
And so the call in followingthe way of Jesus is it will
suffer to our ego, not ourspirit, and our spirit in
following this way will liberateother people.
We are never free by ourselves.
We're free more of the sons anddaughters of God when we
(24:16):
ourselves practice this freedomand live in it and think this
way and invite others toconsider what the Spirit is
saying and drawing us.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
So are you also saying that this caughtness that
Esther laid in our hands thismorning, this feeling of being
caught in between, is sofamiliar to us?
We understand it, perhapsbecause we haven't experienced
(24:48):
the surrender or the letting goor the release of something that
has kept this ancient knowingfrom happening like we've.
We have followed along thestatus quo.
Cynthia bargeau says we're alljust like following world 48.
(25:09):
Um, because it is the path ofleast resistance.
We are here, but in order toget wisdom, to follow intuition,
to move away from thiscaughtness of wow, should I
follow the rules or should Ifollow my knowing Like?
(25:29):
To move away from that, we haveto surrender something that
we've been told, something we'vebeen taught and it requires
discernment.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
That is a practice.
Wisdom itself requiresdiscernment, and I think that
there are some wonderful ways tolearn discernment.
One of them is if it is ablessing for you, it should be a
blessing for everyone.
Your being free is not going tosend somebody else into
captivity.
Your freedom is not going tomake it more difficult for
someone else to thrive and toexperience the kingdom, and so,
(25:59):
for me, those are good thingsfor people to remember.
Make it more difficult forsomeone else to thrive and to
experience the kingdom Preach,and so, for me, those are good
things for people to remember.
We're saying, okay, now I don'tneed a rule, but I'm going to
practice by the spirit.
But if this is going to causeyou to become selfish, that's
not the spirit, that is the ego.
So to be able to practice thatdiscernment, I think is
(26:24):
beautiful when you have acommunity of people who can help
sort those things out, that youcan have conversations with,
deep spiritual conversationswith.
But what if somebody'slistening?
Going, well, I don't haveanyone like that now.
That's okay, because you canspeak to the Spirit and the
Spirit will answer, and again Idon't mean you'll hear an
audible voice, which, again,maybe the church in general
needs to remind people.
The spirit of god lives in usand it will be a deep inner
voice that will speak to us.
(26:44):
So the invitation is topractice, to say yes to spirit
and to um, to hear shelly, and Igiven everybody permission just
to follow wisdom.
And so somebody says to youwhat, what right do you have to
bypass the law?
and do this oh, there, it is,there it is, yes, Come on, bring
(27:05):
it.
Permission granted, yeah, bythe spirit who said, yeah, death
no longer has the final word.
Death in all of its forms, itsmany forms.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And finding a place like Table on Wednesdays, a
community of people that allowthese conversations, like we're
having right now, to be placedon the table, to unlearn some
things and invite spirit, toteach us how to get uncaught to,
how to let go, to listen to thevoice of wisdom in others who
(27:42):
have experienced transcendence,who have moved along a path of
Mary Magdalene, who have welleven the mystics right.
Wow, we could talk about thatas wisdom, as a path, wisdom too
.
So, yeah, maybe finding us onwednesdays at table, um, in in
(28:06):
one of the links in the in theshow notes somehow.
But, um, this has been abeautiful uh place to, to rest
with you today but also converseon a topic that I believe is
shaping myself and shaping ourconversations and offering to
(28:27):
others a path to it as well.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I love you, shelley.
I'm grateful for you.
This has been an incredibleconversation.
I love you too.
So, for everyone else, thinkabout it.
Think about it, allow wisdom tospeak to you about it.
It's possible that there's somuch more.
There's a bigger, better, morebeautiful kingdom and it's
coming and we get to co-createwith the spirit who is making
(28:56):
all things new.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
And, might I add, I'm looking for the queendom too.
The queendom, I mean, you'rethe queen of love.
You know I've tagged you as thequeen of love, and so if we
just talk about kingdom, itfeels patriarchal, lots of
patriarchy around it.
But queendom Wow, she ispreparing a banquet for us to
(29:18):
feast, and so let me just addthat, give me permission.
Thank you, wow, she ispreparing a banquet for us to
feast, and so let me just addthat, give me permission.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Thank you, see, and that's all it takes.
Somebody just ask for thepermission and just take it for
themselves, please, and thankyou, spirit, for permission.
We do bless everyone who islistening.
May you be blessed with thepresence of Spirit.
May you have full confidencethat you hear the Spirit and you
can engage the Spirit and thinkdifferently.
(29:47):
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good afternoon.
Heather Drake Welcome.
Good afternoon.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Shelley Shepard.
You said hold on, this is goingto be a bumpy run, or at least
we'll put our seatbelts on andit's full of excitement.
So it's a roller coaster ridethat we're inviting our
listeners on, but it's going tobe a good one.
It's exciting anyway.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, it is exciting and yeah, you never know where
we're going to land this thing.
Sometimes we just start talkingand you know know spirit shows
up and takes us anotherdirection.
But it's always good to have aconversation with you about
these beautiful pieces that wehold and also that are shaping
(00:57):
us right, like we don't we don'treally have this all figured
out, right right.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Oh 100%.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
In this space of remembering.
Yes, talk to us about thatancient remembering.
I know you're just like readyto Ancient remembering what?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
is that I like the idea of the term an ancient
remembering, because there arethings that happen and stir in
our souls or stir within us.
When you hear something or yousee something or you sense
something, and then it feelslike, oh, I remember, I remember
that good, I remember that I amsupposed to trust myself.
(01:34):
I remember that I am supposedto contribute to the flourishing
of all people everywhere.
It feels to me again like asacred remembering, like when we
go back and rehearse ourbelovedness, when we go back and
remember, through ceremony orthrough witness or through
baptism or through whateverritual we're performing,
(01:55):
anointing that we remember, oh,we are the holders of this
ancient story, this ancientpresence, this eternal creator,
and that we're a part ofeverything, this oneness that
we're called into, that we arecalled into oneness not to a
thing, but to creation, living,breathing, growing, expanding.
(02:20):
This is like when we look atthe Hubble telescope images it's
further and bigger and just.
We stand in awe of each otherand of things and presence and
go.
Yes, yes, this is not minuscule.
What we're asked to be a partof this is expansive.
These are the galaxies.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You mentioned a word oneness and I want to linger
with you there for just a littlebit.
It's kind of a hot topic for usright now, but I wonder if a
few weeks ago we did a podcaston laying down sin, and once we
lay that down, do we seeourselves as more one with God,
(03:03):
with Christ, with Spirit?
Is that how that works?
Or are we constantly battlingbetween I think I'm loved, but I
did these things.
I think I'm loved, but I thinkthat way?
I think I'm loved, but I justhad words for the person in the
car in front of me.
Where does this oneness trapezefrom?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
In my understanding as it is right now, oneness is
actually, I think, an invitationinto a transcendent thought.
That returning to the good, orreturning to the source of who
we are, that we are made in theimage and we are made in the
likeness but we are also madefrom God, that we are love, and
(03:49):
when we can acknowledge and whenwe can come back to the fact
that God invites us into God'sself and God is this creator,
god is this magnificent spiritinviting us back home, back to
our true selves.
That to me, is the onenessbetween us and all people.
(04:10):
In our very narrow, like short,human brain, we want to know
what makes us different and whatthe spirit is asking us to do
is remember what makes us one.
Yes, yes, do.
Is remember what makes us one.
Yes, yes, remember thewholeness, remember the
sacredness, remember the beauty,remember the good, when
(04:35):
everything in our life has beengiven to us to kind of chop up
and confine all of the beautyand the goodness and said you
can have this but no more.
And I think our souls are soexpansive and so beautiful and
we have to learn how to take offall of the stops and be able to
say what is it like for me tounderstand that my intention to
(04:57):
see, to try to see a unity oroneness with all.
That's what the work ofPentecost is.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's what the work of the Holy Spirit is.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That's what the work of the Holy Spirit is that we
could understand each other whenwe couldn't before.
We couldn't remember why what Iwant to do is different or
better than what you want to do,and then go.
Oh, I remember that there's onework, and it's God's work and
there's one kingdom and it'slove's kingdom and we're not
building many kingdoms and manyempires over here.
(05:27):
Our intention is to buildlove's kingdom so that every
single person knows that theyare wanted and lives in the
freedom and the flourishing ofthat beautiful kingdom.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I love that image that you just created for us to
see everyone as we're like eachother, right, yes, there is no
us or them Like.
I wonder if the tipping pointof Jesus's work, as we know it
(05:58):
ourselves, was this oneness, wasyou know there is no separation
.
Oneness, was you know there isno separation.
And I started wondering also ifthis was Mary Magdalene's
understanding as she walked withhim, like she understood that
this is really what Jesus isabout and you've said this
(06:21):
before.
I've heard you say this, Ithink, from the story of John
God, make us one, make us allone as we are one.
Meaning this relationship thathe had with spirit, with himself
, with other people, was topoint us in a direction and
these are your words.
I've heard you use them beforetoo is this was our birthright.
(06:41):
Oneness is our birthright.
This is what we were createdfor.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Absolutely.
And these are the kind ofthings when we experience spirit
or the presence of light in us,when some people experience it
in beautiful times, where musicsometimes allows us to enter a
transcendence or a portal, andyou actually feel the energy and
you know that you have had anencounter.
(07:08):
Maybe you don't know what theencounter was, but you know that
you had an encounter and thatsomehow some part of you is
transformed.
And that is the intention orthe gift, or what we understand
of the spirit.
Is transformation that we wouldbecome our true selves, our
whole selves, that we wouldremember, that we would wake up,
(07:30):
that we would awaken to loveand that we remember how
powerful we are, but not in apower in any way that dominates
or excludes, but a power thatbrings us together, a power that
returns us to our true selves.
And to say that there aremoments where people can
(07:50):
experience it, not only throughmusic, through prayer, through
meditation, sometimes being inthe presence of another person
who is connected to God, andsomehow their connection allows
you a connection.
Those kind of moments inpresence absolutely transform us
, and I think that they do thatoutside of our knowing, outside
(08:12):
of the thoughts in our mentalbrain, but we have that deep
inner heart, that inner knowing,and I think that's one of the
things that I would like to talkabout, at least to invite the
witness of someone listening toconsider that you can trust
yourself, that your innerknowing, that place in someone's
(08:33):
gut that tells them yes, thisis the way, even though a rule
would say something different.
And I think Jesus shows us thispath.
You have heard it say unto you,but I say and it's more
expansive and less rules.
And people panic when you saythat there are less rules
because again there've beenstraw men and people said, well
(08:55):
then you know people are goingto run amok.
No, no, when we return to love,love is pure and God's love is
limitless and we're invited intolimitless love.
And what would it look like forthe whole world if we stayed in
this ascended thought that loveis limitless.
We're not going to outlovesomeone else.
There's not less love for me,because there's all love for you
(09:15):
.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
You know.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So this idea of following the spirit, trusting
yourself, and if you don't trustyourself or you can't trust
yourself, then, you know, getsome help, and I mean maybe a
therapist, but maybe a spiritualdirector or someone who can
help you.
Or sometimes in a goodChristian community there's
somebody else who trusts theirown discernment and can teach
(09:38):
you how to trust the discernment, because sometimes what we've
been offered is a bunch ofpeople who tell you that you
can't trust yourself, you don'tknow, you shouldn't question.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah, we have forgotten how to trust ourselves
and how to trust our knowing.
More times than not, we pushthat aside, whether it's to
intuition or just a thought.
We seem to chase it away, maybeas women, maybe as humans.
(10:07):
Maybe all of us do a little bithumans.
Maybe all of us do a little bit.
But I want to read somethingthat a friend of mine on
Substack offered today.
This is from Esther Joy Goetzand this is a quote from her
post.
Today I am caught, like so manyof us, between obedience and
(10:31):
sovereignty, between outerauthority and inner knowing,
between follow the rules or elseand follow your wisdom and see
what unfolds.
I read that and I was like yes,yes and yes, we're caught, or
(10:51):
maybe even stuck in this place.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
You know, yes to what you're saying.
But also I don't know if ourreligious traditions,
christianity and whatever aperson may be following have
given us the rights ofinitiation.
And I think that's where we'vebeen lacking, where we're
initiated into a trust.
(11:15):
For, you know, I think there'smany phases of a human person's
thing, where you know at 12 andthen at 21, and then we have
these rights of initiation wherecome up into adulthood or come
into, you know, womanhood,manhood.
There's those, there are somerights.
But I believe in our religioustradition we've forgotten how
(11:37):
important ceremony is to be ableto tell someone you can trust
them from that quote.
But then it also reminded me ofsome scripture that said you
know the law is was onlysupposed to be a placeholder.
That the law was only supposedto be a placeholder, obedience
was only supposed to be untilthe spirit.
You only have to have a ruleuntil the spirit is within you
(12:00):
and then the rules no longerapply.
But it's easy to keep people insome kind of queue or straight
line if you know how to controlthem, to be able to say to
someone be led by your spirit.
It's not a free-for-all, it'snot saying be led by your ego,
be led by your selfishness, beled by the fruit of bad behavior
(12:24):
, but be led by who you trulyare, to allow the spirit of
Christ, that same spirit thatwent about doing good and
freeing all those who wereoppressed, that spirit lives in
you too.
So do good with everything,make choices.
I love the quote that you readbecause she said but wisdom, and
how does a person gain wisdom?
(12:44):
Not just a rule, because rulesdon't fit every situation, but
wisdom knows all things, and sowhen we have the presence, when
we listen to the spirit, when weallow, wisdom knows all things.
And so when we have thepresence, when we listen to the
spirit, when we allow wisdom toguide us, so I think you know
somebody listening might saywell then, where did I receive
my wisdom from?
How have I been initiated intofollowing wisdom?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
into gaining wisdom and trusting wisdom.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I think all of these are beautiful questions.
Where did the wisdom come from?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
patriarchal.
No right, no, no wisdom thereimmediately, no heather
immediately, no, no patriarchy.
However, um, I personally havecome to understand and believe
that wisdom was with God in thebeginning, in the created, an
originator of all thought, thedeepest part of the universe she
(13:43):
held.
If you fast forward to whotalked about wisdom in First
Testament, a lot wisdom in firsttestament, a lot um a man, of
course attributed to uh to kingsolomon in many ways.
Above all, get wisdom in all ofyour heading.
(14:04):
Get her, yeah, and she willadorn your neck yeah, yes
presence.
Yeah, shekinah sophia spirit,maybe, maybe that's.
I'm just going to whisper thisbecause maybe, if I get softer,
people will lean in, but maybethat's why we are where we are
(14:26):
in our world, in our culture.
Maybe we're not asking wisdomwhat she thinks, maybe we're not
.
Maybe our posture is well, I'mjust going to go down to the bar
, to the local bar, and I'mgoing to get my wisdom there.
Well, certainly you're going toget some kind of wisdom, you
know sitting there, and maybeit's from your friends, maybe
(14:50):
it's like cheers, you know,everybody knows your name.
But then where do you take thatwisdom?
How does that transform you?
How does it help you rememberwith that ancient knowing that
you just described here in thebeginning?
How do we get to that ancientknowing that we've never been
disconnected, even when thestory reminds us that we've
(15:14):
never been disconnected, evenwhen the story reminds us that
we messed up?
We need to get rid of thatstory.
We need to write a better story, and you and I have talked
about that.
How do we write a better storythan the story of the garden
where we lost our ancientknowing?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
We want to pause and take a moment and let you know
how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
I think the invitation is torewrite the story from the
(15:55):
perspective of illusion or ofloss.
I think there's a differentalways a different point in the
story that says you can make thebeautiful the story.
You can return to the good, andI think that's certainly
something that Mary Magdaleneknew how to do, and I'm sure the
mother of James, because she'salways in there, and Mary, the
(16:16):
mother of Jesus, and I'm surethese women had a practice that
reminded them of what Jesus was.
Because here's the beauty ofwhat Jesus tells us when people
actually hear the words of Jesus, there is an ancient knowing,
not a bunch of rules thatreligion has told them, but the
words of Jesus that say are youtired, are you worn?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
out.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Are you burnt out on religion?
Come to me and I will show youhow to live.
That's really what the Spiritis inviting us into the path of
Jesus, shows us how to live andit is in communion with the
Spirit.
Is inviting us into the path ofJesus, shows us how to live,
and it is in communion with theSpirit.
It is in full relationship withthe Spirit.
So we're invited to that samething that we would have full
(17:03):
access to the ancient knowing,to the wisdom that has led not
only Jesus but others into thefullness of what God has for
them, the fullness of the world.
Jesus said I'm going to pray andthe Father will send you the
Spirit and the Spirit will livein you, and greater works will
you do than these.
Jesus offered us expansion.
(17:25):
Jesus offered us the Spirit.
I'm going to empower you tolive in the Spirit, the Spirit.
I'm going to empower you tolive in the Spirit, and that
means that you might have to usethe Spirit to expand the way
that you think so that you cansee the wisdom of God or join
with what the Spirit is doing inthe kingdom that is so close,
(17:46):
it's even in our mouth, and togive up the rigidity of rules.
You know, in some parts of theNew Testament there's this idea
too that says that the rules arejust a schoolmaster.
When you're an adult you don'tneed the schoolmaster to tell
you anymore.
You know, the Spirit will tellus that's unloving.
(18:08):
Don't say that.
Or the Spirit will show us andbe able to say we can't make
this law because this oppressespeople.
You know, you don't have tohave something written in on
paper or on a rule book when theSpirit has been given to us and
has been written in our hearts.
So Jesus again offers us thisway of saying you have to
(18:29):
unlearn.
You can unlearn if you want togo up higher.
This life of repentance means Igive up thinking that this is
the difference between us andthis is why I'm better than you,
or this is the differencebetween us and this is why we
have God's approval and you donot.
And this idea that the Spiritis drawing us into where we are
(18:50):
one is an embracing of thediversity and the creativeness
of God among us in all things,of God among us in all things,
and the expression that we'renot afraid of different
expressions, that we actually,by the Spirit, you know, by
wisdom's, calling us into abigger love.
(19:15):
It's beautiful how, in thesemoments of conversation, it
feels like we could actuallysolve the world's problems, if
only you listened to the wisdom.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yes, where's the wisdom?
And I think in Esther's piecetoday on Substack it was the
word caught stood out to me,Like we're caught between what
we believe to know in our ownbeing.
(19:41):
We're caught to believesomething else or act a
different way.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I loved the imagery that she used as well.
That caught imagery stood outto me because I have been caught
.
I have been caught in barbedwire, I have been caught in
place where I had intention togo somewhere else, but there was
an outside, somethingpreventing me.
And I think what has preventedor what is preventing many of us
(20:07):
are systems or thoughts orprincipalities or ways of
believing, and I think what thespirit is inviting us to right
now is to give up these limitingbeliefs.
To find your foot caught insomething and then invite the
Spirit to come and dislodge youor take off the slave bands or
(20:27):
release the fox trap, whateverit is that keeps us there, these
ideas of it's not okay oranything that limits us or
limits someone else or has uskeep someone else in bondage.
Jesus came so that we wouldhave life and have it to the
full, and the fullness of God'slife is not just for us, it's
(20:48):
for the whole world.
Until we're all living in thatfullness, none of us are.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, you and I and table participants are reading
the Eye of the Heart right nowby Cynthia Bergeau, on
Wednesdays as we gather and meet, and there were two words
conscious laboring andintentional suffering.
That she says that these twopillars are really the tipping
(21:17):
point of Christianity, thatthese are the ways that we begin
to understand what the point ofChrist was intended in the
world, and not the kind ofsuffering where, you know, on
(21:37):
this earthly realm that weexperience, that we experience,
you know, sometimes on a dailyor regular basis, either through
health or social constructs oreven family or relationships.
That kind of suffering is, ispart of this world.
But this conscious suffering ofmoving ourself to this ancient
(21:59):
knowing, this place that youjust described to us, that we
have forgotten, sometimes feelslike suffering because we are
unlearning what religion hastaught us, we are unlearning
what Christianity has told us,we are unlearning has told us,
(22:25):
we are unlearning the way thatwe thought we knew of Jesus, and
there's some kind ofintentional suffering of letting
that ego fall out, of layingdown the religion, of getting
rid of these forces of us andthem, and sometimes it feels
like suffering, but it's the way.
It's one of the two pillars, inher opinion, right In her
(22:46):
opinion, it's one of the two.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
But I also remind you that, since we are following
Jesus, if one would look at hislife as what is given to us in
account in scripture and againI'm reminded of what John john
said of the works of christ thatwere done the world could not
contain all the books, right,that would have to be written.
So absolutely only this is notall that was done and we can use
(23:11):
our holy imagination and go onthat.
But you would see in jesus'slife, intentional suffering, all
the time In oneness with theperson who is an outcast, by
touching the leper, by havingconversations with the women, by
empowering the women, that isintentional suffering to give up
(23:32):
a place of patriarchal ego andsay it is in the oneness that I
experience the Father, that Iexperience the family of God.
It is in my solidarity with thepoor and in eating food with
people who are cast out.
That is the way of Jesus'intentional suffering since the
(23:54):
very beginning.
And so the call in followingthe way of Jesus is it will
suffer to our ego, not ourspirit, and our spirit in
following this way will liberateother people.
We are never free by ourselves.
We're free more of the sons anddaughters of God when we
(24:16):
ourselves practice this freedomand live in it and think this
way and invite others toconsider what the Spirit is
saying and drawing us.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
So are you also saying that this caughtness that
Esther laid in our hands thismorning, this feeling of being
caught in between, is sofamiliar to us?
We understand it, perhapsbecause we haven't experienced
(24:48):
the surrender or the letting goor the release of something that
has kept this ancient knowingfrom happening like we've.
We have followed along thestatus quo.
Cynthia bargeau says we're alljust like following world 48.
(25:09):
Um, because it is the path ofleast resistance.
We are here, but in order toget wisdom, to follow intuition,
to move away from thiscaughtness of wow, should I
follow the rules or should Ifollow my knowing Like?
(25:29):
To move away from that, we haveto surrender something that
we've been told, something we'vebeen taught and it requires
discernment.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
That is a practice.
Wisdom itself requiresdiscernment, and I think that
there are some wonderful ways tolearn discernment.
One of them is if it is ablessing for you, it should be a
blessing for everyone.
Your being free is not going tosend somebody else into
captivity.
Your freedom is not going tomake it more difficult for
someone else to thrive and toexperience the kingdom, and so,
(25:59):
for me, those are good thingsfor people to remember.
Make it more difficult forsomeone else to thrive and to
experience the kingdom Preach,and so, for me, those are good
things for people to remember.
We're saying, okay, now I don'tneed a rule, but I'm going to
practice by the spirit.
But if this is going to causeyou to become selfish, that's
not the spirit, that is the ego.
So to be able to practice thatdiscernment, I think is
(26:24):
beautiful when you have acommunity of people who can help
sort those things out, that youcan have conversations with,
deep spiritual conversationswith.
But what if somebody'slistening?
Going, well, I don't haveanyone like that now.
That's okay, because you canspeak to the Spirit and the
Spirit will answer, and again Idon't mean you'll hear an
audible voice, which, again,maybe the church in general
needs to remind people.
The spirit of god lives in usand it will be a deep inner
voice that will speak to us.
(26:44):
So the invitation is topractice, to say yes to spirit
and to um, to hear shelly, and Igiven everybody permission just
to follow wisdom.
And so somebody says to youwhat, what right do you have to
bypass the law?
and do this oh, there, it is,there it is, yes, Come on, bring
(27:05):
it.
Permission granted, yeah, bythe spirit who said, yeah, death
no longer has the final word.
Death in all of its forms, itsmany forms.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And finding a place like Table on Wednesdays, a
community of people that allowthese conversations, like we're
having right now, to be placedon the table, to unlearn some
things and invite spirit, toteach us how to get uncaught to,
how to let go, to listen to thevoice of wisdom in others who
(27:42):
have experienced transcendence,who have moved along a path of
Mary Magdalene, who have welleven the mystics right.
Wow, we could talk about thatas wisdom, as a path, wisdom too
.
So, yeah, maybe finding us onwednesdays at table, um, in in
(28:06):
one of the links in the in theshow notes somehow.
But, um, this has been abeautiful uh place to, to rest
with you today but also converseon a topic that I believe is
shaping myself and shaping ourconversations and offering to
(28:27):
others a path to it as well.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I love you, shelley.
I'm grateful for you.
This has been an incredibleconversation.
I love you too.
So, for everyone else, thinkabout it.
Think about it, allow wisdom tospeak to you about it.
It's possible that there's somuch more.
There's a bigger, better, morebeautiful kingdom and it's
coming and we get to co-createwith the spirit who is making
(28:56):
all things new.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
And, might I add, I'm looking for the queendom too.
The queendom, I mean, you'rethe queen of love.
You know I've tagged you as thequeen of love, and so if we
just talk about kingdom, itfeels patriarchal, lots of
patriarchy around it.
But queendom Wow, she ispreparing a banquet for us to
(29:18):
feast, and so let me just addthat, give me permission.
Thank you, wow, she ispreparing a banquet for us to
feast, and so let me just addthat, give me permission.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Thank you, see, and that's all it takes.
Somebody just ask for thepermission and just take it for
themselves, please, and thankyou, spirit, for permission.
We do bless everyone who islistening.
May you be blessed with thepresence of Spirit.
May you have full confidencethat you hear the Spirit and you
can engage the Spirit and thinkdifferently.
(29:47):
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
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