July 18, 2025 • 33 mins
What if Mary Magdalene's uncovered hair wasn't just a break from tradition, but a revolutionary act of spiritual and feminine liberation?
As we approach Mary Magdalene's feast day on July 22nd, Shelley and Heather dive into one of the most overlooked yet profound aspects of her story – her hair. In ancient times, a woman's hair was simultaneously considered her "glory" and something to be hidden away from public view. The cultural mandate requiring women to cover their hair wasn't simply about modesty; it was fundamentally about control and power.
Mary Magdalene shattered these conventions when she not only uncovered her hair in public but used it to dry Jesus's feet after anointing them with expensive oils and her own tears. This act of devotion wasn't just spiritually significant – it was politically and culturally subversive. She transformed what patriarchal systems had deemed should be hidden into a sacred instrument of connection and worship.
Through vivid imagery and thoughtful exploration, Shelley and Heather unpack how Mary's wealthy status intersected with her beauty, creating a platform that she chose to use not for personal gain but for devotion. They consider how this ancient story speaks to our modern experiences of beauty standards, cultural control, and the search for authentic self-expression. What does it mean when we reclaim aspects of ourselves that we've been conditioned to hide? How might we find liberation in seeing our physical bodies as sacred vessels rather than objects to be controlled?
This conversation opens windows into a radical understanding of embodied spirituality, where tears, hair, and presence become holy offerings. Mary Magdalene's example challenges us to expand our concept of the sacred and invites us to find transcendence not by escaping our humanity but by fully inhabiting it with love, courage, and radical authenticity.
Join us on this journey of expansionist thinking as we reimagine what it means to follow the path of Mary Magdalene – a path where beauty isn't hidden away but becomes the very story that liberates us all. Share your own reflections and join our community at expansionisttheology.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Heather Drake Good afternoon.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Shelley Shepard, it's great to see you today.
Good afternoon, Shelley Shepard.
It's great to see you today.
It's very nice to be with youin this particular week where we
are anticipating the Feast ofMary Magdalene and we are
anticipating just the goodnessof where Spirit will lead us.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, it's a beautiful month, Like the whole
month.
I'm just celebrating MaryMagdalene and all the goodness
that so many before us have seenthe light and have brought her
into this space, of having herown feast day on July 22nd.
(01:02):
Her own feast day on July 22nd.
I know we talked about thatmaybe in the last episode, but
it took a long time to get herthat equality, and so I'm
hopeful that, as women and thevoices of women continue to rise
, that we too will have thatspirit that Mary Magdalene had
(01:23):
the tenacity to just keepshowing up through the voices of
other women, through thepractices, through the rituals,
through the unfurling andunfolding that we're finding on
this path that you like to callthe path of Mary Magdalene, this
path of transcendence.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So I'm excited really to to share this month with her
, and and not just it's not justjuly that we that we talk about
mary magdalene, obviously, butthere is a moment that we're
experiencing in this month ofjuly where we are focusing or
putting intention towards andkind of staying in our waking
(02:05):
consciousness.
What is it like to follow thepath, um, that mary magdalene
left for us in relationship withchrist, in with relationship
with our own selves and our owngiftings and, I think,
ultimately, relationshipcontinuing with the Spirit.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yes, I think that's the beautiful piece.
I'm sure someday you'll preachon how Spirit moved her.
Even before I was thinking howJesus saw.
I was thinking the other day.
(02:48):
I'm pretty sure he saw MaryMagdalene from afar too, like
why wouldn't he have?
He would have already have seenher.
Like I sat with that for amoment.
He saw everyone else, whywouldn't he have seen Mary?
So, yeah, these are called theexpansionist questions and
thoughts.
You know, as they roll out andas we hold them, um, I just
(03:12):
think there's so many pieces inscripture where, um, with an
expansionist posture, that wecan grow, and Mary is one of
those places where we areallowed to expand beyond 12
(03:33):
verses that was written abouther, the central character of
the resurrection narrative, 12verses.
So you know that there was morethings around that that didn't
make it into the canon.
But here we are.
Here, you and I are in thispresent year getting ready to
(03:56):
celebrate her feast next weekand we have so much to talk
about and to think about, and Ithink today we're going to talk
about her hair, am I?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
And what's with her hair, and what's with our own
hair and what's with what's withallowing the beautiful to be
the story?
And yeah, let's talk about herhair.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So I wrote this piece as an introduction to a message
that I will share this Sunday,and it goes like this she had
long flowing hair.
She wore it to one side, sortof flipped upwards, backwards
slightly, and sort of whimsicalthick.
(04:42):
Sort of whimsical thick, easilyrolled or pushed under a scarf
while out at the market or tocarry water.
Her hair wasn't only her glory,it was her anointing fabric,
layered and coiled, shaped withpurpose.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
There's lots to think about, even thinking about all
the different beauties that cometo us because of hair, all the
different ideas of beauty, allthe different colors and shapes
and how it is so incrediblyexpressive, and I have to ask
myself why was a woman's hairrequired to be covered?
(05:24):
Why did we demand as culture?
Put that expression away, putthat beauty under wraps so that
no one can see that?
And again, as people who aretelling the making the beautiful
thing, the story, telling thestory in a beautiful slant or
opening the windows, letting thespirit bring light to something
(05:46):
so we can see it.
I think that the hair, and themetaphor of the hair, has so
much intrinsic value in our ownlife.
I think that even thinkingabout the fact that everybody
has hair growing out of the topof their head to some respect
and there's not a whole lot ofthings that we get to choose
about it I mean, you can choosethe color once it's out and you
(06:08):
can cut it in a particular way,but how your hair grows is a
gift and what it does is a gift,and there's so many different I
think that it's just incredibleto think that hair has
something to do with the waythat we see the story, the way
that we hear the story and theway that we find our own path.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Wow, there's so much in what you just said.
I'm going to ask you thisquestion we talked about right
before we started the show, butyou asked the question why was
her hair uncovered?
If, in that culture, it wasmeant to be under the scarf or
(06:55):
tunic or headpiece, why was ituncovered?
Why did she uncover it?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Maybe she was done with that kind of control, maybe
she recognized that you cannothide the beauty for long.
Or maybe she had just hadenough of the systems that bound
her, and maybe her intentionwas to liberate not only herself
but others.
Absolutely, and I think that haslittle to do with the actual
(07:26):
hair, but in those moments ofresistance, in those things that
we say I'm not going toparticipate in anymore,
especially regarding beauty,especially regarding personal
autonomy and freedom and giftsthat we have, I mean there's so
much around the idea of awoman's hair.
There are stories that we eachhave, from the time that we're
(07:51):
little, to see someone else'shair, and very often it's the
other hair, the hair that wedon't have growing out of the
top of our own head, that wefind so incredibly beautiful,
that diversity that we'reattracted to, so incredibly
beautiful, that diversity thatwe're attracted to.
I think that it has a lot tosay in the story the thing that
is different than ours that wefind beauty in.
(08:11):
I think the men told her tocover it.
We don't want to see that kindof thing.
We don't want to be enchantedby it.
She was like the very thing thatyou're asking me to cover, I
will uncover and I will anointhim, dry his feet with she we
wept her own tears, but if we'regoing to dry them with
something, it's going to be herhair, and it wasn't because she
couldn't afford a cloth for sure.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, this, we know me.
Yeah, yeah, I just saw.
I saw this in this introductionhere.
I saw the hair as her anointingfabric, like she would have.
She would have been accustomedto some some kinds of fabric,
(08:59):
right, or even maybe have made,taken some kind of plant flax
and created threads.
She would have been some kindof weaver of these fabrics or
maybe even made them for otherpeople and sold them.
I don't know, but I can imagine, like you said, that she had a
(09:23):
towel of sorts or she had acloth or she had something
around her waist already thatshe could have used, but instead
she used her own beauty, herown fabric to make this
connection with him.
(09:45):
And then I thought about wecould just park here for a
second but I thought also abouthow beauty and wealth make us
suspicious.
Some people say scandalous.
When you put beauty and wealthtogether, something happens in
(10:06):
the tabloids right.
Some kind of story getsrendered.
Some kind of story getsrendered.
There's somebody trying tounderstand another person or
their lifestyle or somethingabout them, based on just the
fact that they're beautiful andthey're wealthy.
And so I wondered about thismoment when she anoints Jesus,
(10:35):
uses her hair to dry his feet orwhatever else she might have
been drying his hands right Hisneck?
We're only told about the feet.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
When you ask me to consider what happens when
beauty and wealth are combined,I immediately think of the
platform.
The beautiful and the wealthyare given a platform always have
been, and so, with the platformthat she has, the wealth and
the beauty, then she offers itin devotion, in worship.
She shows us what to do withthe beauty and that in this
(11:11):
worship there is liberation forthose who worship.
there's liberation for this,through these acts of devotion
and I think that there'ssomething so incredibly powerful
about that imagery, and again,imagery with hair is used
throughout the first testamentand second testament.
It is, you know, the the fablesof poems and has been of
(11:35):
artists.
You know, since, again,humanity, this idea of hair.
And then I cannot imagine thebillions of dollars that the
hair care industry is.
Let's don't get started on that.
It's.
You know, thousands of yearslater and we're still interested
in the story.
The hair is telling yes, yes,what does it mean?
(11:55):
I mean even of God.
The story is told that he knowsthe number of hairs on our
heads, like that kind ofdevotion that here Mary is using
her hair and then this is whoshe's devoted to the God who
knows how many hair are on ourhead today.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, I can't say that I've ever heard somebody
preach or teach.
Just on the hair.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Well, let's start talking about it, because hair
was a big thing growing up in myparticular trends, in my
particular denominationalPentecostal holiness was-.
Oh my goodness.
Okay, so you had to have hairthat was long.
You weren't allowed to cut it.
I mean, you could trim the ends.
I mean, again, there's always anuance no cutting hair, but you
could trim your ends.
Okay, you could have so much,but not a lot.
Then you had to have thisbeautiful hair, but you had to
(12:48):
put it in a bun.
So again, this is not verydifferent than head covering you
had to have it, but you weren'tallowed to see it.
Yeah, and it had to be alltucked up in head covering.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And so this idea of and if somebody came to your
house and your hair was down,you had to immediately go and
find a clip and get your hair upRight Like my.
I can remember my grandmotherdoing that a lot, right Like,
and I you know as a kid you justlike think, oh, she's just
(13:22):
trying to um present herself,right.
But then later you realize, oh,there's a lot of, there's a lot
of reasons behind keeping yourhair on top of your head.
But yeah, you just mentionedthat and that memory and that
thought just like jumped infront of me.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
And so carry on Because again we have these
ideas that are from culture orfrom patriarchy or from places
where they want to connect to uswith a modesty.
Again, putting away the beautyand people's hair, especially
(14:03):
beautiful hair, hair differentthan ours is enchanting.
It is a way to take focustowards something, and I have
long straight hair, and so Ihave always been fascinated,
excited and just mesmerized bycurly hair, especially with long
(14:23):
curly.
It's just beautiful to me andin fact as a little child I
wanted red curly hair so badly.
My mother's brother, kim, hadred curly hair, beautiful long
red curly hair, and I justthat's what I wanted from my
head.
Again, my hair was not growinglike that.
Straight, flat, blonde hair iswhat I had.
(14:46):
And I had asked my uncle how doI get red curly hair?
And he was like you have to eatcarrots, a lot of carrots.
I ate carrots almost until Iwas orange, you know like trying
so badly.
And then I met a dear friend.
I met her when I was 10 yearsold.
She was Irish and she hadflaming red hair.
I just thought it was the mostbeautiful thing I'd ever seen
(15:10):
and I told her oh my gosh, Ilove your curly hair so much.
And she snapped her fingers.
She was very bossy.
She snapped her fingers andsaid knock it off.
She said this is not beautiful.
She said what you have isbeautiful.
Again, here, I think that wesee beauty in the other.
She said you have predictablehair.
(15:31):
You wake up in the morning andyou know what it's going to do.
And she said every day I havean unpredictable nightmare.
And I said, yeah, but every dayit could be different.
I said this is not what youwant.
And so again, 10-year-old girlsare having this conversation
about hair and predictability orunpredictability, and how we
(15:51):
will approach the world with ourhair.
I mean, we have ideas aboutthings not turning out good
because the hair is some kind ofan omen.
It's a bad hair day.
I mean, what about the factthat it just grew out of our
head this way?
You know, like to be able tosay you know, I understand the
beauty tied up with it.
I understand the beauty tied upwith it.
(16:16):
But what is that actuallyexploring in us?
To say what is a path towardliberation?
What is a path toward lovingourselves?
Finding beauty in thepredictability or in the
unpredictability?
What is it like to see what theuniverse has gifted us with and
say, yeah, this is myexpression, this is how I didn't
(16:40):
choose my eye color.
We don't choose the way thatthe hair follicles are fashioned
on our head, and so it becomesa gift.
I think we want to pause andtake a moment and let you know
how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
(17:01):
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
And then it becomes a way forpeople to control us as well, to
say, some hairs are good andsome hairs are not, or where the
hair comes from is not, andthen again becomes this method
of controlling, and I think thatthe part of the story is that a
(17:25):
woman's hair, or the way thatshe chooses to use it, gets to
be redeemed in the story as well.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I love, love, love the word liberation that we're
using right now, in this context, in this way, to talk about her
hair.
If you think about empire inthat day, right, or empire even
in our day, hair would not havebeen like, okay, we're going to
(17:56):
use this to liberate people, butthis inner knowing, this
ancient remembering, and thisgift of anointing that she
brought to her hair, I thinkthere's so much more to talk
about in that word liberation.
(18:17):
You are exactly right, she wasliberating everybody in the room
, but she was telling the womenthe story from an ancient part
of who she was, maybe a storythat had gotten passed down to
her.
Maybe she was going to changesomething with this act, with
(18:38):
this one demonstration.
And I would think, heather,that that wasn't just a one time
In my holy imagination, right?
Why would she just anoint onetime?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
No, this was the time that people were watching, or
that whoever was writing aboutthe story was actually writing
it down.
It's essential, I think, thatwe actually think about these
things because Jesus saidwhenever you're going to tell my
story, you're going to tellhers too, and this is a part of
hers.
And I think that we would beamiss if we didn't say and this
(19:35):
is a part of hers.
And I think that we would beamiss if we didn't say we have a
particular set of experiencesbased on where we were born and
the DNA andily hair, that wouldhave stories of liberation that
are also tied to hair and stylesand how systems have been put
in place to ostracize or to keeppeople away in saying you are
not these standards, you are notwelcome because of the hair
that grows out of your head, andso I do.
I think that it is liberation,I think it's an act of defiance
and I think that that defiancethat allows us to then turn that
(19:59):
into worship, I think that's apath.
I think there's paths here thatMary has shown us that lead us
into deeper intimacy with thespirit, that lead us into ways
of transcendence.
But we do have to ask what'swith the hair?
Why is it anybody else'sbusiness how we wear our hair,
(20:22):
how our choice to braid it, ourchoice to cut it, our choice to
add to it, our choice towhatever?
Why is that a judgment place?
That that can be a place ofliberation and freedom, and I
think, obviously, that oursisters you know who are, like I
said, brown and black wouldhave a lot, I'm sure, more to
(20:44):
say even than we do.
But I think that we can speakfor women and say you know,
there is an invitation intolooking for places of freedom,
finding how the ancientsremember beautiful, not as
society or as culture has toldus, that that is what's
beautiful, that's what it's usedfor.
(21:06):
I mean, I don't know of anyother stories where we talk
(21:26):
about anointing and using ourhair, and so this idea of this
is our person, this is our gift,and we use them in ways of
healing.
I think it's powerful to thinkabout this.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It's very powerful Jesus again.
I think Jesus probably saw herfrom afar, but before she met
him she would have been of thewisdom tradition, the Gnostics,
meditative, maybe even centeringprayer essential oils, like
(22:12):
right now Heather's putting herhair on the top of her head.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, because I'm hot and this is effective in
cooling the back of my neck, notbecause someone told me I had
to.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yes, and so these practices that she would have
been involved in in prior tomeeting jesus.
I can imagine that, theseessential oils.
It's been said that that marymagdalene came from wealth, that
that her family owned ownedsome property in bethany and and
(22:49):
magdala, and I think maybe evenJerusalem, I can't remember,
but she would have had access towhat's the word you said,
damascus, what, what was thatfragrance?
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Oh, wild rose of Damascus.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Wild rose of Damascus , so she would have had some
access to these pieces and thisway of thinking or this way of
being.
So I can imagine her whole headsmelling fragrant with this
Damascus rose scent or some kindof other delicious anointing
(23:30):
oil, and I could imagine itbeing weaved in her own hair,
like her taking the time sittingby the well, putting this into
her own hair.
And so anytime she walked thedusty path, there would have
(23:50):
been a fragrance coming from herhair.
And so I sat with that and Ithought, wow, jesus couldn't
have missed that.
He would have recognized it, hewould have seen her, he would
have reminded her that she wasbeloved, that she was beloved.
And there is this place in methat just wonders about wow,
(24:16):
historically, heather, all ofthese things that happened that
we're reading about.
It's just amazing that theyeven wrote them down.
It is amazing that they wrotethem down and gave us this
picture of her.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
It must have made such an impact that they also,
you know, not only did theyanointed, but the idea of using
her hair to dry the tears.
In this process, in thisexchange of love or admiration,
in this knowing we talk aboutthe connection that Jesus offers
(24:53):
and that Mary had offered thisbeautiful picture of spirit
union, and this I mean, there'smany reasons that Mary would
have been weeping.
And Jesus said you know, listen, she's doing this for my burial
.
And Jesus said listen, she'sdoing this for my burial.
(25:15):
So maybe in her knowing that sheunderstood, the trauma that was
about to be unveiled and thatseparation that she would feel
in his death.
And maybe she didn't have yet aknowing of the resurrection.
Maybe she did, but she allowsthat deep weeping.
I mean, jesus knew that Lazaruswould be resurrected and yet
wept hard, hot tears.
(25:36):
And so, even when we have aknowing of a greater truth, it
doesn't mean we don't fullyexperience our tears as holy as
part of our humanity.
There's so much that could besaid about tears in the same way
that hair is, but that tearsare a way of prayer, are a way
(25:56):
of expressing.
Most of the time, we don'tconjure our own tears.
They come to us as a gift fromour body and to be able to sense
things and know things.
And her weeping and heranointing and then her drying
them, her offering herself.
I think that's why, a lot oftimes, people have told us to
(26:17):
put away the hair, put away thebeauty.
Don't tell that part of thestory.
Yes, and I think thatculturally we've been taught how
to judge.
There's certain hairs that arebeautiful and others that we
consider not.
There's a certain way that youshould wear your hair, and
there's a when, in fact, ourhair, all hair, is unpredictable
(26:39):
.
It grows as the world pleasesand not necessarily as we please
.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
And so finding beauty in the wild, and so finding
beauty in the wild, this passagethat we grew up hearing a
woman's hair is her glory.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
When you were a younger person and you heard
this, did you agree with it?
No, it felt controlling and itfelt horrible because it felt
like I couldn't have hair theway that it best suited me, that
I was told what my glory waswas something that I didn't have
any control over.
Somebody else did.
I think it is very much was away of controlling.
Now there are other passagesthat also talk about hair that
(27:28):
do not feel that way, but like,for instance, the portion of the
scripture that says that asilver hair or gray hair is a
crown.
That's something that should beaspired to.
So what I hear in your questionis something that we should all
be asking questions about.
(27:49):
When we take any kind of textand we wield it to control
someone or to diminish or tocategorize people, we should be
very wary of those things and gookay, that can't be what the
text is used for Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, so again her taking her hair and uncovering
it, lavishing it towards Jesus,wiping tears, using it as
anointing fabric All of thesethings are her glory, right?
All of these things are herglory, not just that she wears
(28:28):
her hair a certain way or keepsit under a scarf, and I think
that's also part of theliberation that we're talking
about here.
As women is we have to use theword that you just used
controlled.
We have been controlled or wehave been.
(28:48):
Things have been partitioned orexpected of us as women to do a
certain way.
And here comes Mary Magdaleneand she just rolls the hair out,
lavishes the oil, dries thetears.
Does this whole ritual to bringus anointing?
(29:09):
Like without Mary Magdalene,would we have the ritual of
anointing?
I think we've answered this inanother podcast and I'm trying
to remember what we said, butthere's several resources and
scholars that point us towardsthat this ritual of anointing
(29:32):
was brought to Christianitythrough the act of Mary
Magdalene.
And so what are we doing withthis?
What are we doing with thisliberation and this, knowing I
know what you and I are doingright now, like we're talking
about this, trying to share fromour own, you know, experience
(29:54):
of being brought up in a verystrict religious environment, of
what the women did with theirhair, to what the women wore and
what a woman was supposed tosubmit to, to this expansive at
least I'm going to speak formyself.
(30:15):
I'm not going to categorize youin all of that, but in this
expansive way, mary Magdalene,the recipe that she is giving us
to me is expansive love pouredout to me is expansive love
(30:38):
poured out.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I don't have to be constricted to these ways, that
scripture or maybe even the wayI was taught to think about
those scriptures and I thinkthat becomes, I think, a key for
our own liberation is to sayour perception some of it handed
to us, our perception of what atext means.
I was just paying attention tosomething today for another
(30:58):
reason, but it seems appropriatenow where, in John 14, jesus
says I'm going to go, but whileI'm here, I'm going to tell you
something that I'm going to askthe Father, and the Father is
going to send the Spirit, andthe Spirit, who is like me, will
also liberate you, and theSpirit will teach you everything
(31:21):
that you need to know, and theSpirit will cause you to
remember you to remember and Ithink that is very much what is
happening again in the worldthat the Spirit is causing us to
remember the things that Jesustold us, that were liberating,
(31:57):
that were empowering, that.
And again, I like to blamethings on the spirit and on the
idea that we are waking up to abigger picture, a greater sound.
But what I see in thisparticular imagery in Mary
Magdalene is the imagery ofembodiment.
the imagery of this is how.
This is the path.
The path is that everything issacred.
Now, even her hair is sacred.
We have so many things that wecall relics and we allow for
(32:23):
worship and to be able to saythat a woman's hair is part of
the relic, and so this idea ofnow it becomes holy because we
have used it in the service ofadoration.
This is such a beautifulremembering for us as women that
every part of us is not somehowawful and needing to be
(32:47):
redeemed, but we are made in theimage of love From the very
beginning.
We are beloved From the verybeginning.
The beauty has meant to tellthe story, and it is that every
part of you is welcomed in thepresence of love.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
I love that and I love that talking about her hair
today has brought us to thatpunctuation mark right there.
It's beautiful, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Heather Drake Good afternoon.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Shelley Shepard, it's great to see you today.
Good afternoon, Shelley Shepard.
It's great to see you today.
It's very nice to be with youin this particular week where we
are anticipating the Feast ofMary Magdalene and we are
anticipating just the goodnessof where Spirit will lead us.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, it's a beautiful month, Like the whole
month.
I'm just celebrating MaryMagdalene and all the goodness
that so many before us have seenthe light and have brought her
into this space, of having herown feast day on July 22nd.
(01:02):
Her own feast day on July 22nd.
I know we talked about thatmaybe in the last episode, but
it took a long time to get herthat equality, and so I'm
hopeful that, as women and thevoices of women continue to rise
, that we too will have thatspirit that Mary Magdalene had
(01:23):
the tenacity to just keepshowing up through the voices of
other women, through thepractices, through the rituals,
through the unfurling andunfolding that we're finding on
this path that you like to callthe path of Mary Magdalene, this
path of transcendence.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So I'm excited really to to share this month with her
, and and not just it's not justjuly that we that we talk about
mary magdalene, obviously, butthere is a moment that we're
experiencing in this month ofjuly where we are focusing or
putting intention towards andkind of staying in our waking
(02:05):
consciousness.
What is it like to follow thepath, um, that mary magdalene
left for us in relationship withchrist, in with relationship
with our own selves and our owngiftings and, I think,
ultimately, relationshipcontinuing with the Spirit.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yes, I think that's the beautiful piece.
I'm sure someday you'll preachon how Spirit moved her.
Even before I was thinking howJesus saw.
I was thinking the other day.
(02:48):
I'm pretty sure he saw MaryMagdalene from afar too, like
why wouldn't he have?
He would have already have seenher.
Like I sat with that for amoment.
He saw everyone else, whywouldn't he have seen Mary?
So, yeah, these are called theexpansionist questions and
thoughts.
You know, as they roll out andas we hold them, um, I just
(03:12):
think there's so many pieces inscripture where, um, with an
expansionist posture, that wecan grow, and Mary is one of
those places where we areallowed to expand beyond 12
(03:33):
verses that was written abouther, the central character of
the resurrection narrative, 12verses.
So you know that there was morethings around that that didn't
make it into the canon.
But here we are.
Here, you and I are in thispresent year getting ready to
(03:56):
celebrate her feast next weekand we have so much to talk
about and to think about, and Ithink today we're going to talk
about her hair, am I?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
And what's with her hair, and what's with our own
hair and what's with what's withallowing the beautiful to be
the story?
And yeah, let's talk about herhair.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So I wrote this piece as an introduction to a message
that I will share this Sunday,and it goes like this she had
long flowing hair.
She wore it to one side, sortof flipped upwards, backwards
slightly, and sort of whimsicalthick.
(04:42):
Sort of whimsical thick, easilyrolled or pushed under a scarf
while out at the market or tocarry water.
Her hair wasn't only her glory,it was her anointing fabric,
layered and coiled, shaped withpurpose.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
There's lots to think about, even thinking about all
the different beauties that cometo us because of hair, all the
different ideas of beauty, allthe different colors and shapes
and how it is so incrediblyexpressive, and I have to ask
myself why was a woman's hairrequired to be covered?
(05:24):
Why did we demand as culture?
Put that expression away, putthat beauty under wraps so that
no one can see that?
And again, as people who aretelling the making the beautiful
thing, the story, telling thestory in a beautiful slant or
opening the windows, letting thespirit bring light to something
(05:46):
so we can see it.
I think that the hair, and themetaphor of the hair, has so
much intrinsic value in our ownlife.
I think that even thinkingabout the fact that everybody
has hair growing out of the topof their head to some respect
and there's not a whole lot ofthings that we get to choose
about it I mean, you can choosethe color once it's out and you
(06:08):
can cut it in a particular way,but how your hair grows is a
gift and what it does is a gift,and there's so many different I
think that it's just incredibleto think that hair has
something to do with the waythat we see the story, the way
that we hear the story and theway that we find our own path.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Wow, there's so much in what you just said.
I'm going to ask you thisquestion we talked about right
before we started the show, butyou asked the question why was
her hair uncovered?
If, in that culture, it wasmeant to be under the scarf or
(06:55):
tunic or headpiece, why was ituncovered?
Why did she uncover it?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Maybe she was done with that kind of control, maybe
she recognized that you cannothide the beauty for long.
Or maybe she had just hadenough of the systems that bound
her, and maybe her intentionwas to liberate not only herself
but others.
Absolutely, and I think that haslittle to do with the actual
(07:26):
hair, but in those moments ofresistance, in those things that
we say I'm not going toparticipate in anymore,
especially regarding beauty,especially regarding personal
autonomy and freedom and giftsthat we have, I mean there's so
much around the idea of awoman's hair.
There are stories that we eachhave, from the time that we're
(07:51):
little, to see someone else'shair, and very often it's the
other hair, the hair that wedon't have growing out of the
top of our own head, that wefind so incredibly beautiful,
that diversity that we'reattracted to, so incredibly
beautiful, that diversity thatwe're attracted to.
I think that it has a lot tosay in the story the thing that
is different than ours that wefind beauty in.
(08:11):
I think the men told her tocover it.
We don't want to see that kindof thing.
We don't want to be enchantedby it.
She was like the very thing thatyou're asking me to cover, I
will uncover and I will anointhim, dry his feet with she we
wept her own tears, but if we'regoing to dry them with
something, it's going to be herhair, and it wasn't because she
couldn't afford a cloth for sure.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, this, we know me.
Yeah, yeah, I just saw.
I saw this in this introductionhere.
I saw the hair as her anointingfabric, like she would have.
She would have been accustomedto some some kinds of fabric,
(08:59):
right, or even maybe have made,taken some kind of plant flax
and created threads.
She would have been some kindof weaver of these fabrics or
maybe even made them for otherpeople and sold them.
I don't know, but I can imagine, like you said, that she had a
(09:23):
towel of sorts or she had acloth or she had something
around her waist already thatshe could have used, but instead
she used her own beauty, herown fabric to make this
connection with him.
(09:45):
And then I thought about wecould just park here for a
second but I thought also abouthow beauty and wealth make us
suspicious.
Some people say scandalous.
When you put beauty and wealthtogether, something happens in
(10:06):
the tabloids right.
Some kind of story getsrendered.
Some kind of story getsrendered.
There's somebody trying tounderstand another person or
their lifestyle or somethingabout them, based on just the
fact that they're beautiful andthey're wealthy.
And so I wondered about thismoment when she anoints Jesus,
(10:35):
uses her hair to dry his feet orwhatever else she might have
been drying his hands right Hisneck?
We're only told about the feet.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
When you ask me to consider what happens when
beauty and wealth are combined,I immediately think of the
platform.
The beautiful and the wealthyare given a platform always have
been, and so, with the platformthat she has, the wealth and
the beauty, then she offers itin devotion, in worship.
She shows us what to do withthe beauty and that in this
(11:11):
worship there is liberation forthose who worship.
there's liberation for this,through these acts of devotion
and I think that there'ssomething so incredibly powerful
about that imagery, and again,imagery with hair is used
throughout the first testamentand second testament.
It is, you know, the the fablesof poems and has been of
(11:35):
artists.
You know, since, again,humanity, this idea of hair.
And then I cannot imagine thebillions of dollars that the
hair care industry is.
Let's don't get started on that.
It's.
You know, thousands of yearslater and we're still interested
in the story.
The hair is telling yes, yes,what does it mean?
(11:55):
I mean even of God.
The story is told that he knowsthe number of hairs on our
heads, like that kind ofdevotion that here Mary is using
her hair and then this is whoshe's devoted to the God who
knows how many hair are on ourhead today.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, I can't say that I've ever heard somebody
preach or teach.
Just on the hair.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Well, let's start talking about it, because hair
was a big thing growing up in myparticular trends, in my
particular denominationalPentecostal holiness was-.
Oh my goodness.
Okay, so you had to have hairthat was long.
You weren't allowed to cut it.
I mean, you could trim the ends.
I mean, again, there's always anuance no cutting hair, but you
could trim your ends.
Okay, you could have so much,but not a lot.
Then you had to have thisbeautiful hair, but you had to
(12:48):
put it in a bun.
So again, this is not verydifferent than head covering you
had to have it, but you weren'tallowed to see it.
Yeah, and it had to be alltucked up in head covering.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And so this idea of and if somebody came to your
house and your hair was down,you had to immediately go and
find a clip and get your hair upRight Like my.
I can remember my grandmotherdoing that a lot, right Like,
and I you know as a kid you justlike think, oh, she's just
(13:22):
trying to um present herself,right.
But then later you realize, oh,there's a lot of, there's a lot
of reasons behind keeping yourhair on top of your head.
But yeah, you just mentionedthat and that memory and that
thought just like jumped infront of me.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
And so carry on Because again we have these
ideas that are from culture orfrom patriarchy or from places
where they want to connect to uswith a modesty.
Again, putting away the beautyand people's hair, especially
(14:03):
beautiful hair, hair differentthan ours is enchanting.
It is a way to take focustowards something, and I have
long straight hair, and so Ihave always been fascinated,
excited and just mesmerized bycurly hair, especially with long
(14:23):
curly.
It's just beautiful to me andin fact as a little child I
wanted red curly hair so badly.
My mother's brother, kim, hadred curly hair, beautiful long
red curly hair, and I justthat's what I wanted from my
head.
Again, my hair was not growinglike that.
Straight, flat, blonde hair iswhat I had.
(14:46):
And I had asked my uncle how doI get red curly hair?
And he was like you have to eatcarrots, a lot of carrots.
I ate carrots almost until Iwas orange, you know like trying
so badly.
And then I met a dear friend.
I met her when I was 10 yearsold.
She was Irish and she hadflaming red hair.
I just thought it was the mostbeautiful thing I'd ever seen
(15:10):
and I told her oh my gosh, Ilove your curly hair so much.
And she snapped her fingers.
She was very bossy.
She snapped her fingers andsaid knock it off.
She said this is not beautiful.
She said what you have isbeautiful.
Again, here, I think that wesee beauty in the other.
She said you have predictablehair.
(15:31):
You wake up in the morning andyou know what it's going to do.
And she said every day I havean unpredictable nightmare.
And I said, yeah, but every dayit could be different.
I said this is not what youwant.
And so again, 10-year-old girlsare having this conversation
about hair and predictability orunpredictability, and how we
(15:51):
will approach the world with ourhair.
I mean, we have ideas aboutthings not turning out good
because the hair is some kind ofan omen.
It's a bad hair day.
I mean, what about the factthat it just grew out of our
head this way?
You know, like to be able tosay you know, I understand the
beauty tied up with it.
I understand the beauty tied upwith it.
(16:16):
But what is that actuallyexploring in us?
To say what is a path towardliberation?
What is a path toward lovingourselves?
Finding beauty in thepredictability or in the
unpredictability?
What is it like to see what theuniverse has gifted us with and
say, yeah, this is myexpression, this is how I didn't
(16:40):
choose my eye color.
We don't choose the way thatthe hair follicles are fashioned
on our head, and so it becomesa gift.
I think we want to pause andtake a moment and let you know
how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
(17:01):
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
And then it becomes a way forpeople to control us as well, to
say, some hairs are good andsome hairs are not, or where the
hair comes from is not, andthen again becomes this method
of controlling, and I think thatthe part of the story is that a
(17:25):
woman's hair, or the way thatshe chooses to use it, gets to
be redeemed in the story as well.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I love, love, love the word liberation that we're
using right now, in this context, in this way, to talk about her
hair.
If you think about empire inthat day, right, or empire even
in our day, hair would not havebeen like, okay, we're going to
(17:56):
use this to liberate people, butthis inner knowing, this
ancient remembering, and thisgift of anointing that she
brought to her hair, I thinkthere's so much more to talk
about in that word liberation.
(18:17):
You are exactly right, she wasliberating everybody in the room
, but she was telling the womenthe story from an ancient part
of who she was, maybe a storythat had gotten passed down to
her.
Maybe she was going to changesomething with this act, with
(18:38):
this one demonstration.
And I would think, heather,that that wasn't just a one time
In my holy imagination, right?
Why would she just anoint onetime?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
No, this was the time that people were watching, or
that whoever was writing aboutthe story was actually writing
it down.
It's essential, I think, thatwe actually think about these
things because Jesus saidwhenever you're going to tell my
story, you're going to tellhers too, and this is a part of
hers.
And I think that we would beamiss if we didn't say and this
(19:35):
is a part of hers.
And I think that we would beamiss if we didn't say we have a
particular set of experiencesbased on where we were born and
the DNA andily hair, that wouldhave stories of liberation that
are also tied to hair and stylesand how systems have been put
in place to ostracize or to keeppeople away in saying you are
not these standards, you are notwelcome because of the hair
that grows out of your head, andso I do.
I think that it is liberation,I think it's an act of defiance
and I think that that defiancethat allows us to then turn that
(19:59):
into worship, I think that's apath.
I think there's paths here thatMary has shown us that lead us
into deeper intimacy with thespirit, that lead us into ways
of transcendence.
But we do have to ask what'swith the hair?
Why is it anybody else'sbusiness how we wear our hair,
(20:22):
how our choice to braid it, ourchoice to cut it, our choice to
add to it, our choice towhatever?
Why is that a judgment place?
That that can be a place ofliberation and freedom, and I
think, obviously, that oursisters you know who are, like I
said, brown and black wouldhave a lot, I'm sure, more to
(20:44):
say even than we do.
But I think that we can speakfor women and say you know,
there is an invitation intolooking for places of freedom,
finding how the ancientsremember beautiful, not as
society or as culture has toldus, that that is what's
beautiful, that's what it's usedfor.
(21:06):
I mean, I don't know of anyother stories where we talk
(21:26):
about anointing and using ourhair, and so this idea of this
is our person, this is our gift,and we use them in ways of
healing.
I think it's powerful to thinkabout this.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It's very powerful Jesus again.
I think Jesus probably saw herfrom afar, but before she met
him she would have been of thewisdom tradition, the Gnostics,
meditative, maybe even centeringprayer essential oils, like
(22:12):
right now Heather's putting herhair on the top of her head.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, because I'm hot and this is effective in
cooling the back of my neck, notbecause someone told me I had
to.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yes, and so these practices that she would have
been involved in in prior tomeeting jesus.
I can imagine that, theseessential oils.
It's been said that that marymagdalene came from wealth, that
that her family owned ownedsome property in bethany and and
(22:49):
magdala, and I think maybe evenJerusalem, I can't remember,
but she would have had access towhat's the word you said,
damascus, what, what was thatfragrance?
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Oh, wild rose of Damascus.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Wild rose of Damascus , so she would have had some
access to these pieces and thisway of thinking or this way of
being.
So I can imagine her whole headsmelling fragrant with this
Damascus rose scent or some kindof other delicious anointing
(23:30):
oil, and I could imagine itbeing weaved in her own hair,
like her taking the time sittingby the well, putting this into
her own hair.
And so anytime she walked thedusty path, there would have
(23:50):
been a fragrance coming from herhair.
And so I sat with that and Ithought, wow, jesus couldn't
have missed that.
He would have recognized it, hewould have seen her, he would
have reminded her that she wasbeloved, that she was beloved.
And there is this place in methat just wonders about wow,
(24:16):
historically, heather, all ofthese things that happened that
we're reading about.
It's just amazing that theyeven wrote them down.
It is amazing that they wrotethem down and gave us this
picture of her.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
It must have made such an impact that they also,
you know, not only did theyanointed, but the idea of using
her hair to dry the tears.
In this process, in thisexchange of love or admiration,
in this knowing we talk aboutthe connection that Jesus offers
(24:53):
and that Mary had offered thisbeautiful picture of spirit
union, and this I mean, there'smany reasons that Mary would
have been weeping.
And Jesus said you know, listen, she's doing this for my burial
.
And Jesus said listen, she'sdoing this for my burial.
(25:15):
So maybe in her knowing that sheunderstood, the trauma that was
about to be unveiled and thatseparation that she would feel
in his death.
And maybe she didn't have yet aknowing of the resurrection.
Maybe she did, but she allowsthat deep weeping.
I mean, jesus knew that Lazaruswould be resurrected and yet
wept hard, hot tears.
(25:36):
And so, even when we have aknowing of a greater truth, it
doesn't mean we don't fullyexperience our tears as holy as
part of our humanity.
There's so much that could besaid about tears in the same way
that hair is, but that tearsare a way of prayer, are a way
(25:56):
of expressing.
Most of the time, we don'tconjure our own tears.
They come to us as a gift fromour body and to be able to sense
things and know things.
And her weeping and heranointing and then her drying
them, her offering herself.
I think that's why, a lot oftimes, people have told us to
(26:17):
put away the hair, put away thebeauty.
Don't tell that part of thestory.
Yes, and I think thatculturally we've been taught how
to judge.
There's certain hairs that arebeautiful and others that we
consider not.
There's a certain way that youshould wear your hair, and
there's a when, in fact, ourhair, all hair, is unpredictable
(26:39):
.
It grows as the world pleasesand not necessarily as we please
.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
And so finding beauty in the wild, and so finding
beauty in the wild, this passagethat we grew up hearing a
woman's hair is her glory.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
When you were a younger person and you heard
this, did you agree with it?
No, it felt controlling and itfelt horrible because it felt
like I couldn't have hair theway that it best suited me, that
I was told what my glory waswas something that I didn't have
any control over.
Somebody else did.
I think it is very much was away of controlling.
Now there are other passagesthat also talk about hair that
(27:28):
do not feel that way, but like,for instance, the portion of the
scripture that says that asilver hair or gray hair is a
crown.
That's something that should beaspired to.
So what I hear in your questionis something that we should all
be asking questions about.
(27:49):
When we take any kind of textand we wield it to control
someone or to diminish or tocategorize people, we should be
very wary of those things and gookay, that can't be what the
text is used for Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, so again her taking her hair and uncovering
it, lavishing it towards Jesus,wiping tears, using it as
anointing fabric All of thesethings are her glory, right?
All of these things are herglory, not just that she wears
(28:28):
her hair a certain way or keepsit under a scarf, and I think
that's also part of theliberation that we're talking
about here.
As women is we have to use theword that you just used
controlled.
We have been controlled or wehave been.
(28:48):
Things have been partitioned orexpected of us as women to do a
certain way.
And here comes Mary Magdaleneand she just rolls the hair out,
lavishes the oil, dries thetears.
Does this whole ritual to bringus anointing?
(29:09):
Like without Mary Magdalene,would we have the ritual of
anointing?
I think we've answered this inanother podcast and I'm trying
to remember what we said, butthere's several resources and
scholars that point us towardsthat this ritual of anointing
(29:32):
was brought to Christianitythrough the act of Mary
Magdalene.
And so what are we doing withthis?
What are we doing with thisliberation and this, knowing I
know what you and I are doingright now, like we're talking
about this, trying to share fromour own, you know, experience
(29:54):
of being brought up in a verystrict religious environment, of
what the women did with theirhair, to what the women wore and
what a woman was supposed tosubmit to, to this expansive at
least I'm going to speak formyself.
(30:15):
I'm not going to categorize youin all of that, but in this
expansive way, mary Magdalene,the recipe that she is giving us
to me is expansive love pouredout to me is expansive love
(30:38):
poured out.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I don't have to be constricted to these ways, that
scripture or maybe even the wayI was taught to think about
those scriptures and I thinkthat becomes, I think, a key for
our own liberation is to sayour perception some of it handed
to us, our perception of what atext means.
I was just paying attention tosomething today for another
(30:58):
reason, but it seems appropriatenow where, in John 14, jesus
says I'm going to go, but whileI'm here, I'm going to tell you
something that I'm going to askthe Father, and the Father is
going to send the Spirit, andthe Spirit, who is like me, will
also liberate you, and theSpirit will teach you everything
(31:21):
that you need to know, and theSpirit will cause you to
remember you to remember and Ithink that is very much what is
happening again in the worldthat the Spirit is causing us to
remember the things that Jesustold us, that were liberating,
(31:57):
that were empowering, that.
And again, I like to blamethings on the spirit and on the
idea that we are waking up to abigger picture, a greater sound.
But what I see in thisparticular imagery in Mary
Magdalene is the imagery ofembodiment.
the imagery of this is how.
This is the path.
The path is that everything issacred.
Now, even her hair is sacred.
We have so many things that wecall relics and we allow for
(32:23):
worship and to be able to saythat a woman's hair is part of
the relic, and so this idea ofnow it becomes holy because we
have used it in the service ofadoration.
This is such a beautifulremembering for us as women that
every part of us is not somehowawful and needing to be
(32:47):
redeemed, but we are made in theimage of love From the very
beginning.
We are beloved From the verybeginning.
The beauty has meant to tellthe story, and it is that every
part of you is welcomed in thepresence of love.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
I love that and I love that talking about her hair
today has brought us to thatpunctuation mark right there.
It's beautiful, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.