May 19, 2025 • 38 mins
What happens when the sacred spaces of our childhood reveal themselves to be breeding grounds for exclusion? Cara Meredith joins us to unpack her three-decade journey through evangelical church camp culture and the awakening that led to her powerful new book.
From her first experience as a 9-year-old camper in 1988 to her final speaking engagement at a family camp in 2018, Cara's relationship with Christian camping environments evolved from wholehearted participation to thoughtful criticism. The turning point came when she witnessed firsthand the harm inflicted on LGBTQ+ individuals, women, and people of color within these supposedly sacred spaces.
"When it comes to the God who is love, when it comes to this God that I am meeting and promoting, who does no harm—if that is who I truly believe that God is, that God is a God of love and that God then calls us to be people of love and people who do no harm, then these two don't align," Cara explains, describing the dissonance that eventually led her away from evangelical camping environments.
We explore how church camps often present a singular male image of God, reinforcing complementarianism, purity culture, and even elements of white Christian nationalism. Yet paradoxically, these same natural settings hold profound potential for authentic spiritual connection. As Heather reflects, "We were so close to the divine, we were so close to the mystery... Earth is our first monastery."
The conversation moves beyond mere criticism to envision a better way forward—one where camps might become truly inclusive spaces that honor the sacred in everyone. Cara's journey reminds us that loving something deeply sometimes means being willing to criticize it, not out of bitterness but from a profound hope for transformation.
Anyone who has experienced church camp—whether fondly or painfully—will find resonance in this honest exploration of how seemingly benign religious institutions can both form and harm us, and how we might reclaim what is beautiful while addressing what has caused damage.
You can find out more about Cara Meredith by visiting her website https://www.carameredith.com
You can purchase her new book Church Camp at https://ggpbooks.com/book/9798889831006 or your favorite local bookstore.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey, Heather, Welcome Kara.
It's great to have you both onthe Expansionist Podcast today.
I'm super excited to dive intochurch camp.
How about you, Heather?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm excited to talk with our friend Kara.
I have experiences with churchcamp and I wouldn't say that I'm
super excited, and so this isgoing to be a really fun
conversation and we don't haveto even have bug spray, so this
is going to be great Church campno bug spray yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Wow Well, welcome Kara.
It's great to have you.
I'm just going to share withour listeners a little bit about
who you are.
Kara is a writer, speaker andsought-after conversationalist
which I love that word.
A former high school Englishteacher and nonprofit outreach
director.
(01:07):
Her writings have appeared innumerous print and online
publications the Color of Life,a spiritual memoir about her
journey into issues of justice,race and privilege, which was
released in February.
She holds a Master of Theologyfrom Fuller Seminary and lives
in the San Francisco Bay Areawith her family.
(01:29):
I am excited.
Heather said she wasn't excited, but I'm excited to talk about
it.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Oh no, I'm excited to talk about that, but we were
going to talk about church campand I have experiences with
church camp and bugs and all theother kind of things.
Yeah, she's allergic to a lotof things.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So I'm excited to have-.
Yeah, she's allergic to a lotof bugs she doesn't like bugs.
I am.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I am that's where she goes with church camp.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But when I read the pieces in your book about your
story here and I find the colorof life a fascinating entry
point to.
Maybe that's another podcast,but we're here today to talk
about Church Camp.
your book that was just releasedyesterday Takes a posture and a
(02:16):
position yes, congratulationson that Takes a posture and
position that you spent 30 years, I think you said, in the
pre-show in this industry ofwhite American, white
evangelicalism, this subcultureof camping.
(02:38):
Wow, you have a lot to unpackwith us today and now you're
here to kind of talk about itand also talk against it.
And from an expansionistperspective today, the
expansionist podcast it allowsus to take something that we've
always thought as truth andstretch that thing.
(03:02):
So here we are, we're going tostretch with you today and hear
your heart, and I'm highlycurious I have like the first
question I want to ask is howdid this shift occur in you,
where you spent 30 years andthen I'm sure it wasn't all of a
sudden, but things started toshift or change in you.
What shifted?
Did you stop believing in camp?
(03:24):
Shift or change in you whatshifted?
Did you stop believing in campor did you start believing in
some kind of other camp?
Can you share with us aboutthat?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Yeah, great question.
Also, it sounds like I probablyshould have my Amazon bio
updated.
The Color of Life came out in2019.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
So I will be sure.
Oh, there's that.
Okay, so, there's that, so I'llbe sure to talk to my's that.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Okay, so there's that .
So I'll be sure to talk to mypublicist and or whomever to get
that updated.
But church camp, which is whatwe're talking about today, as we
were chatting about before theshow, I went to my first camp,
if you count being a camper in1988 when I was nine years old,
(04:08):
being a camper in 1988 when Iwas nine years old, and you
could say that I didn't leaveuntil 2018, which was the last
time I ever spoke at a camp.
The last youth camp I everspoke at was in 2014.
And then the last family camp,again in this particular
environment, under the umbrellaof white evangelicalism, was in
2018.
So, 30 years of my life.
As far as the breaking point orwhat changed or what happened,
the reality is that I loved campfor a long, long time and I do
(04:31):
continue to love camp.
I think it is a magical, sacredplace and I recognize the
tension of harm that oftenhappens theologically but also
to people, and it was that harmthat started to turn me away In
(04:52):
particular.
It was one of those that Ibegan to see the harm that was
happening to LGBTQ identifyingfolks in particular, and even if
I couldn't articulate what Iwas seeing or how it was um
causing friction within me.
There was something that wasn'tright, Um, and and I began to
(05:13):
ask more questions and sometimes, um, it really began to feel
like there were more questionsthan answers, which, which, I,
side note, value so much, um,but for me, it was starting to
see the harm caused to the queercommunity, to people of color
and to women in particular.
That began to change my mind.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, I want to hear I want to hear that story a
little bit.
The queer story is themarginalized story, like what,
what surfaced for you in, orwhat were you seeing in um, in
that tribe, um, what was goingon?
Speaker 4 (05:49):
yeah, um, well, for readers, um, for those who pick
up this book, they will see thevery first page.
It says to michael weldon andsarah powell, two camp friends
who changed the story for me and, um, without getting deep into
either of their stories Sarah'sstory is actually told in the
book and I have permission totell her story but those were
(06:12):
two camp friends that I workedwith for a number of years who
loved Jesus more than anyone.
I knew those two people asindividuals, but also
collectively.
They changed lives and theywere both kicked out.
They were kicked out of theenvironments that they had
(06:35):
called home, that they had foundan identity in, that they had
been a part of, which is to sayof white evangelical church camp
environments when they came outor when they were outed white
evangelical church campenvironments when they came out
or when they were outed.
(06:56):
And for me, that was thedissonance, was watching both of
them and wondering, ascomplicit as I was sometimes
also going.
This doesn't seem right.
When it comes to the God who islove, when it comes to this God
that I am meeting and promoting, who does no harm If that is
who I truly believe that God is,that God is a God of love and
that God then calls us to bepeople of love and people who do
(07:17):
no harm, then these two don'talign, they don't go together
anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I love that you brought that up to us, because
that is for us, for Shelly andmyself, but I hope for the world
becoming this, understandingthat God is love.
Everything else needs to bowits knee to that truth.
You know Jesus being love andthe word being subject to who
(07:43):
Jesus actually is.
But in the book of Romans itsays that love does no harm to
its neighbor and therefore loveis the fulfillment of the law,
and so our responsibility aspeople who are saying that we're
followers of Jesus must be alsoto make sure that love is being
done to our neighbors.
(08:04):
Like my freedom or my wholenessis not mine alone, it is a
collective, it is I am supposedto be my brother's keeper, and
so if my brothers or sisters arebeing harmed, it is then my
responsibility to say we need tostop this or we need to open a
door and have a dialogue so thiscan stop.
(08:24):
But to be able to say here isthe bottom line for all of us If
it's harming a neighbor, thenwe absolutely must talk about it
.
We must stop it.
For me, I look at this I havemany, many Jewish friends and I
love them and have loved them mywhole life.
But if I am not, a person whodoesn't just say, say there
(08:45):
needs to be freedom andwholeness for the Jewish people,
but also freedom and wholenessfor my Muslim brothers and
sisters and their friends aswell.
So being able to say it's notjust for one, but it's for all,
this is a really importantconversation to have and to look
at and go.
What am I doing to bringwholeness into the conversation?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Carol, what were you witnessing with women?
That was another tribe that youjust named that caused the
dissidence for you.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, and again, this question is interesting for me
to answer because I recognize inand through the book that camp
was a place and again, thisparticular facet of Christian
camping, um camp was a placethat exalted me and exalted me
as a woman, because I was whothey were looking for.
Um, I fit the bill, I fit themold.
(09:36):
However you want to say it Now,I I was mostly then speaking Um
, so part of it I was a camper,but then I was a volunteer, I
was a summer staff and then asummer staff person and then,
when I graduated from college, Ibecame a high school English
teacher.
So I had my summers off and Istill needed to pay rent.
I didn't know how to have a 12month paycheck, so I needed to
(10:01):
somehow pay rent during thesummer and ended up starting to
speak during the summer.
So I was a camp speaker atcamps that would allow women to
speak that were stillevangelical.
So in that way I did benefitfrom these environments in being
able to be the person whoproclaimed the gospel, who stood
(10:21):
up on stage, who preached orspoke to hundreds upon thousands
of students over really a15-year period.
But, that being said, these werealso environments in a myriad
of different ways.
Oftentimes there was a singularimage of God that was presented
(10:41):
, image of God that waspresented, and that was a
singular image that was both amale and a father figure.
And I think, as we've spokenbriefly about, to then limit God
to either being male or female,and or to limit God solely to
being a father, is doing adisservice not only to women but
(11:03):
also to young men.
But but I think about all ofthose kids, those elementary,
middle and high school studentsthat I spoke of, to whom I only
used or referenced male pronounsand only introduced the figure
of God as a father to them andin that way, um, I, I was, I was
also saying this is who Godmost likes, this is who God most
(11:26):
prefers, and so I was alsoinadvertently toward myself and
to others, favoring one half ofthe population over the other.
I think when that then happenswhich does happen in a lot of
white evangelical environmentsthat are limited solely to male
images of God, then that's alsowhere you begin to see elements
(11:50):
of complementarianism that playinto men and women having
distinct roles.
That then plays into purityculture, which absolutely comes
out full force in environmentslike this, many times to the
detriment of young girls andwomen, and that we could even go
so far as to saying also thenplays into values of white
(12:12):
Christian nationalism.
So this is something that Iunpack quite a bit in one of the
chapters, but it's fascinatingto see how the dominoes start
falling, all from simplyintroducing a singular image of
who God might be.
That was a lot.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
That was a lot to hold and to soak with you right
there.
And yet Heather and I both grewup in evangelical churches, so
we know exactly what you arereferring to here, with the
division between male and femalewhich I think is part of the
journey.
Now, for myself, is to reallyexpress the feminine spirit of
(12:56):
God in ways that maybe we missedalong the way, got pictures or
pieces of her, but now we havethis opportunity to talk more
about the feminine.
But yes, those evangelicalroots are so deep and so
(13:17):
threaded in our fabric that whenI saw the title of your book
and this invitation about churchcamp, wow, my mind went like in
a thousand directions.
Some very exciting times atchurch camp and others.
I can remember when I was 12years old.
(13:38):
That was just this crazyevangelical move and I knew it
was crazy and yet I compliedwith it.
And and so talk to us a littlebit about the.
This subculture of camping isused to become a structure for
(14:13):
this normative white cultureevangelicalism.
How does this keep happening?
Is it still happening?
Obviously, I'm not involved inchurch camping or church camp I
don't know if Heather is but isthis still?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
happening.
Heather is not.
Sorry, did you have something,heather?
No, I just said Heather is not.
Shelly said are you stillinvolved in church camp?
I said Heather is not.
I want to just jump in here,kara, because you have, I'm sure
, something to say to that andI'm very interested in it.
But to me, as we start talkingabout church camp again and
Shelly and I coming fromevangelical, fundamental type of
Christianity, I mourn the factthat we were so close to
(14:53):
something else.
You know, I think about thefact that you take a bunch of
people and you take them outinto the forest I mean, I went
to Silver Birch Camp up northand it is glorious into these
Silver Birch forests and you getthem away from their work, you
get them away from the thingsthat maybe distract them.
And the camps that I have beento have been beautiful, of
(15:16):
course, as God designed, butjust towering beautiful trees,
of course, as God designed, butyou know, just towering
beautiful trees, usually asparkling lake, usually, you
know, a cooler time of the year,or even in the forest it's
cooler.
And so I now I look at that andgo.
What an incredible experienceit would have been to say
nothing, like to bring peopleout and say, here, sit with a
(15:37):
tree for a while, and of coursethen that would have been
absolutely not allowed.
But to me I look at that and gooh, we were so close, we were so
close to the divine, we were soclose to the mystery, we were
so close to going get outside ofyourself and talk with somebody
who doesn't look like you, whodoesn't pray like you, who
doesn't listen like you, andlearn something from that.
(16:02):
Pray like you, who doesn'tlisten like you and learn
something from that.
And so I am hopeful that on allthe places that we were
skirting by, that the spirit isstill very able to like, reveal
or unveil things, and therecould be truths for that.
But I listened to us talk aboutthe beginning of what this is,
and I would tell people that Iwould love for us to go back
(16:22):
outside and to receive earth asour first monastery.
You know, to be able to saywhat is it like?
If you're struggling right nowto figure out these things, if
that feels, you know, like youhave bad experiences with church
camp, I mean, maybe yours areonly good and I hope that for
you, but if you have badexperiences, to still go back
out to a camp and to sit backand go.
What would you have said to me,god, if you were allowed to
(16:44):
speak?
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah, Well, I feel like, between what both of you
just said, it might take me atleast five hours to respond.
Okay, I'll try.
I'll try so in under fiveminutes.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
what kind of response can you or actually, what can
you just point us in thedirection of?
We can read your book.
That's really exciting, butwhat can we think about that we
haven't thought about before?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Yeah, no, I absolutely have responsive
thoughts.
I just think I'm just sittinghere also loving the fact that
we really could chat for thenext day, because there's, I
feel like we're on the same page.
There's so much to talk about.
So so first I'll work backwards, but first of all, heather,
what you said as camps are, Ilove camp.
I mean and as I mentionedbefore we began recording I love
(17:34):
camp and because I love camp, Icriticize camp.
Camps were originally intendedand I would say are still
intended, even if things havegotten a little awry in some
environments not allenvironments, but camps were
originally intended as a placeof getting out in nature, of
(17:58):
creator, kissing creation, ofhumans being able to meet with
God.
In that way, take me to a campand all I have to do is just sit
there under a tree, maybe withmy bug spray, and stare at
creation, stare at the worldaround me, because I know and I
(18:19):
can trust that in that momentGod will find me.
Now, in that there are alsothere are so many conversations
that can happen here about howwe don't actually need to do a
whole lot in order for humans tomeet God, which is to say, for
God to meet humans, and I thinkthere also have become overly
programmatic elements in camps,not only with the aesthetics and
(18:44):
in sometimes feeling like wehave to make them too beautiful,
but also in the programmaticsthat come to kids and humans
when that is not needed.
You don't need that much tostep into nature, but again, I
think there is a point ofcrossing the line and this is
perhaps where we get into, Iwould say, a religion and a
(19:08):
spirituality that is oftentimesmarked by exclusion, and that is
, I think again in thisparticular instance or facet of
white evangelicalism, what isoften found or what often
happens.
So that's where you do.
Then I think it startsoftentimes with an exclusion
toward those who might be moreprogressive in their theology.
If we were to look at the wayin which evangelicals might
(19:33):
define themselves, be thatpolitically within, religiously,
within their belief systems, orculturally within religiously
within their belief systems orculturally, um, there is a,
there is a prescribed norm ofwhat you believe and of what you
say and of how you vote, and ifyou do anything that's outside
of that, then you're notnecessarily welcomed in.
Um, it might be an exclusiontoward those who don't believe
(19:55):
that the bible is um, theliteral word of god, which is
part of oftentimes, um, thebevyton quadrilateral, how
evangelicals define themselvesor would explain themselves.
But that exclusionism, or thoseexclusionary practices, can
then also go and extend towardpeople groups.
So that's when it extendstoward women.
(20:18):
We can see some of the billsthat are in the House right now
that are not benefiting those ofus who are women.
It can also very much extendtoward anti-LGBTQ rhetoric and
within that it can furtherextend, whether overtly or not,
toward people of color, towardbenefiting those who look more
(20:41):
like the three of us than likemy husband and sons, than like
the minority majority culturenow in the US.
So I think that's where we canlook at white evangelicalism,
and white evangelicalism isoftentimes about who holds the
power and who is benefiting fromthat power, and in that way,
(21:04):
it's not all that different inour camps.
Really, I'm looking at onefacet of white evangelicalism,
but I think readers can alsolook at this book and say, oh,
this is one example of it, butthe reality is that this happens
in a number of different areasand places, sure, and that
affects all of us.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
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If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
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(21:46):
expansionistheologycom.
There's a little tiny episodeof the Simpsons and maybe you
know about it, but one neighboris leaving and he said come with
us to church camp so you canlearn how to judge.
And I was thinking how terrible, but how absolutely apropos.
Like that's where we learn tobe judgmental, that's how we
know who's in and who's out, whowe should fellowship with or
(22:08):
who we should learn from.
And so this invitation is to beable to look at things and go.
Okay, I see that as problematic,but how is there any kind of
redeemable good or what can welearn from that experience?
And for Shelly and I inparticular, we're looking at
(22:31):
this and going how can thespirit enlarge our way of seeing
or enlarge our way ofunderstanding?
And to be able to look at thesetimes and going.
What is it?
I think the intention maybe wasgood, maybe it wasn't but the
idea of taking time out of yourcalendar year and being able to
(22:51):
go.
I want to be immersed insomething, I think, that's still
really beautiful and holy, andto find people that you could do
something like that with theinvitation, I think, into
stepping out of regular intosomething else, particularly in
nature.
There's an ancient AmericanIndian proverb that says the
trees are our first elders To beable to listen to them, speak
(23:26):
to us of God and of good, andnot only of God outside, but who
we are in relation to who Godmade us to be.
And I think that there's aninvitation there that asks us to
ask really hard questions andgo yeah, is there anything good
in this?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
Yeah, and I will say that one of the things I did try
to do, I didn't want to beprescriptive, and it's not, in
my opinion, a terriblyprescriptive book.
It's instead more spiritualmemoir with a bit of theology
and a bit of journalism.
But one could look at everychapter, minus the prologue and
(23:55):
epilogue, and see it divided outinto three different ways, and
that is what I initially ororiginally said from the stage
when I was a camp speaker.
A little bit of that, what waswrong or what was implied with
what I said.
And that's where we're thenlooking at elements of purity
culture, like we talked about,or we're perhaps looking at
(24:16):
exclusion that happens towardthe queer community, or we're
looking at bad theology.
But then the third part is thatthere is it's, I imagine, new
ways forward, and I do hope thatreaders will be able to grasp
that part where, instead ofJesus being the exclusionary
(24:39):
tool that is used to kick peopleto the curb, we say, okay, if
Christ is the center, which iswhat we believe we were just
talking about this before theshow then what does it mean to
expand our boundaries or noteven have boundaries, but just
to say everyone is already in,you already belong, you belong.
This is who you are, and it'snot, then, about the professed
(25:01):
belief or whatever else, orabout the walls that we draw
around, but it's just about thefact that you are in.
So I do hope that readers canalso latch on to that hope for a
new way forward, and perhapsthat will change some of the
camps along the way.
That is hopeful.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And I think that would be my hope for sure is
that somehow this space ofgetting youth to experience a
posture of Christ, that you know, maybe they need to be outside,
they need to be in a differentlocation, that that that is the
(25:44):
hopeful, the hopeful side of ofof that kind of immersion, um, I
I wonder if you will, uh, terry, with us just for a few minutes
.
You mentioned, um, the wordsthat you're, that you love camp
and and and that you the book isabout also criticizing it and
(26:11):
from a spiritual perspective,the ways that we were taught.
And then we grow up and wedon't necessarily believe that
anymore.
And then we grow up and wedon't necessarily believe that
anymore.
(26:41):
We're often the fingers, oftenpointed and saying, well, shelly
, some of these other exercisesthat you write about in the book
, you know, how does thatcriticism lead you, or lead
others to finding a better wayto make, to take what's what the
(27:06):
story has been handed to us andmake uh, beautiful the story
like, how do we?
How do we do that?
How do we do that as, as women,as leaders, as camp counselors,
as vacation Bible school isgetting ready to start all over
the country, right, like howVacation Bible School is getting
ready to start all over thecountry.
Right, like, how does thisstepping back with a critical
(27:32):
eye and saying there's more hereand there's something beautiful
here, and how do we do that?
I know that's kind of in theend of the book, but talk to us
about that.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
I mean, I think one of the first things I think
about when you ask that questionis that the reality is that a
lot of people don't want tocriticize certain parts of the
church or certain parts ofspirituality, even sometimes
because of the sacred cow andmaybe I need to work through
this analogy more but I thinkabout the number of.
(28:07):
I think about the reaction thatcame from different people.
Even when I signed the book or,you know, signed a deal for the
book and or announced it, therewere those, in particular,
those who are still very muchdeep in this, in that world,
whose response toward me wassadness.
They were sad that I was goingto do that.
(28:28):
I think there was also anassumption of bitterness.
There was assumption, anassumption of anger, um, which,
for me, um, readers might decidethat that's how I feel, but I
also feel like I've had enoughtime away.
Um, this is not a reactionaryspiritual memoir.
This is, um, this is a memoirthat is is very much, uh, I much
.
I mean it's been 10 years sinceI spoke to youth and apparently
(28:53):
I can't do math I guess thatwould be 11 years, and then,
whatever, 2025 minus 2018 isseven years since I spoke at a
family camp.
The reality is that it's been along time since I've been in
that environment, and so I'vehad a lot of time to think and
mull over, and from that hascome new ways of thinking.
(29:15):
There's been a spiritualevolution on my part, and that
is where this criticism happens,but I also I sit here and go,
if we can.
If the invitation for each oneof us is to sometimes just do
one thing, to do our one thing,then this is my one thing, and
(29:35):
this one thing is the speakingup that I am also doing on
behalf of those who were harmed,on behalf of those who continue
to experience harm, becausethis is not just something that
happened at the height ofChristian camping in the 90s,
when Christian camping was atits absolute height, but this is
something that still happenstoday.
(29:56):
Again to the people, groups thatwe've named a number of times,
there are harmful theologiesthat are continuing to be
promoted, that are exclusionaryin nature, that are making kids
feel horrible about themselves,that are shaming people.
This is not just kids, though.
I mean.
This is grownups, and so,whether that relates to VVS
(30:18):
during the summer months,whether that relates to the
camps we send our kids, towhether that relates to the
pulpits and the excuse me, thepews that many of us find
ourselves in that are stillbelieving these messages.
What does it mean to criticizewith a gentleness which is to
say to call out and to do my onething?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I think you talk about in the book.
I think it was your story,maybe you were quoting someone
else that they were gettingready to go to camp.
I think it was your kids, right, and you were having this
conversation with.
They wanted to go to camp, butyou weren't sure what they were
going to experience at the camp,and so you sat down and you had
(31:02):
this conversation about here'swhat you're going to hear.
Sat down and had you had thisconversation about here's what
you're going to hear, here's youknow, and then I think maybe
when they came home, you hadanother conversation.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Was that your kids or was that someone else's kids in
the book?
No, so my kids have notactually been to church camp yet
, or at least not to theseparticular types of church camps
.
I have written a bit about thispublicly, certainly in the book
.
One of the questions that Iasked, which was also part of
what birthed this book, was, inthis tension of paradox,
realizing how deeply impactfuland formative camps had been to
(31:40):
me, but also realizing that Ididn't know if I could send my
own kids there.
That was a question that Ireally wrestled with, and that
was part of what led to thisbook as far as it goes.
With some of my other writingthat I've done, I've oftentimes
asked or been asked thatquestion, and for me, whatever
the parent or caregiver decidesI support.
(32:03):
I have had a number of friends,though, who have sent their
kids to environments like this,but they have.
They have buoyed it inconversation.
They've buoyed it inconversations with their
children about their own familyvalues, about what they believe
theologically, about who theyare, and, and in that way,
(32:25):
they've talked about it beforebefore their.
That way, they've talked aboutit before before their children
leave.
They've talked about itafterwards.
And then, those values, thosevalues of love and inclusivity,
have oftentimes been morepositive than that which the
camp may have given them.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I was going to ask what's your favorite camp song.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
My favorite camp song .
Um, I mean, do you want me tosing it?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Absolutely A hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
Well, I don't know if this is my favorite cause it
also has a little bit of badtheology, but it's certainly one
of the most memorable.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Also.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I would like to say this is the first podcast that
I'm singing.
This song on.
This is awesome and it's goingto this goes circa back to 1988.
So we're going back there, butit's a real crowd pleaser.
It's called oh, you Can't Getto Heaven.
So again, we need some newtheology written about it.
But it goes like this and youmight have to sing it after me
(33:28):
oh, you can't get to heaven.
Oh you can't get to heaven.
Yeah, okay, so we'll start it.
So I sing, you repeat oh youcan't get to heaven.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Oh, you can't get to heaven In a Kleenex box.
In a Kleenex box?
Oh, you can't get to heaven.
Oh, you can't.
Oh, you can't get to heaven Ina Kleenex box.
Oh, you can't get to heaven ina Kleenex box Because God don't
like them little snots.
(33:59):
All my sins are washed away.
I've been redeemed by the bloodof the Lamb.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Now again, the theology is horrible, so you
might want to delete this fromthe episode.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
No, it's fun this is a part of church camp.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
This is a part of church camp.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Silly songs yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
And that song, including God's feelings towards
all them little snots, hasstayed in my head for over 30
years now, over 40 years reallyyeah, I think I need a better
camp song.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, I know, a big part of camp, though, is the
singing, and there is somethingso powerful about the songs that
we sing when we're together,when we have experiences, what
we do.
And I will date myself and sayI went to church camp in the 70s
, so yeah, so I have a lot ofchurch camp and through a lot of
(34:54):
decades in fact, from attendingchurch camp to leading church
camp as youth pastors and thingslike that.
So I do love a church camp song.
There is something about Turnyour Eyes upon Jesus around a
campfire.
That's really beautiful, and so,while there's much that has to
be thoroughly examined andquestioned, there is some real
(35:16):
beauty that happens, and again,I'm hopeful because we were so
close to things it doesn't again, let us take some
responsibility and say if youwere harmed in a church camp, it
shouldn't have happened, andwe're really sorry that.
I don't know personally how tomake an amends to you, but you
should hear the church, or atleast women in the church,
(35:39):
saying that should have neverhappened.
You should have never beenshamed or felt excluded, and so
may the God of all grace and maythe Holy Spirit be comfort to
you.
May you find a good therapistor people that you can talk to
about that.
But there are wonderful timesthat people have and experienced
at camp and there are horribletimes, and it can be both, and I
(36:03):
think that that's part of usliving a complicated life and
having a spirituality that isstrong enough to be both in both
places for us to be able to saythat was wrong.
It's terrible, we need torepent and never do that again.
And then there's other timeswe'll say but being together and
exploring a furtherspirituality, that's really
(36:24):
beautiful.
And how do we do that withoutharming people?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
And I love that you're stretching all of us in
this book to see beyond, even,maybe, what we missed, what we
were close to, but now we cansee it maybe more clearly.
What we were close to, but nowwe can see it maybe more clearly
.
And kudos to you for followingyour heart in this message.
(36:53):
It's not easy to follow ourhearts and it's not easy to
write it down and have otherpeople read it once you've
followed your heart.
So kudos regarding that and wewish you the best in this book
and that it touches and reachessome YWAM people and that it
(37:13):
touches and reaches some younglife and some wildlife and some
of these places where maybe harmhas been done.
I know some people in thosecamps, in those places, that
have shared their stories and sohopefully this book will get
into the hands of the peoplethat need to heal and that your
(37:37):
message will be elevated too.
Grace to you.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Do you have a favorite bookstore that you want
to recommend people buy from,or just their favorite
bookstores?
Speaker 4 (37:47):
I would say both and I'm happy to send you a link to
put in show notes, but I alwaysrecommend a great good place for
books in Oakland, california.
They threw me a launch partylast night, which was super fun,
so I will sign any book ordersthat come in and they will mail
those out.
Otherwise, yes, please supportyour own local independent
(38:08):
bookstore.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionistheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey, Heather, Welcome Kara.
It's great to have you both onthe Expansionist Podcast today.
I'm super excited to dive intochurch camp.
How about you, Heather?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm excited to talk with our friend Kara.
I have experiences with churchcamp and I wouldn't say that I'm
super excited, and so this isgoing to be a really fun
conversation and we don't haveto even have bug spray, so this
is going to be great Church campno bug spray yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Wow Well, welcome Kara.
It's great to have you.
I'm just going to share withour listeners a little bit about
who you are.
Kara is a writer, speaker andsought-after conversationalist
which I love that word.
A former high school Englishteacher and nonprofit outreach
director.
(01:07):
Her writings have appeared innumerous print and online
publications the Color of Life,a spiritual memoir about her
journey into issues of justice,race and privilege, which was
released in February.
She holds a Master of Theologyfrom Fuller Seminary and lives
in the San Francisco Bay Areawith her family.
(01:29):
I am excited.
Heather said she wasn't excited, but I'm excited to talk about
it.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Oh no, I'm excited to talk about that, but we were
going to talk about church campand I have experiences with
church camp and bugs and all theother kind of things.
Yeah, she's allergic to a lotof things.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So I'm excited to have-.
Yeah, she's allergic to a lotof bugs she doesn't like bugs.
I am.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I am that's where she goes with church camp.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But when I read the pieces in your book about your
story here and I find the colorof life a fascinating entry
point to.
Maybe that's another podcast,but we're here today to talk
about Church Camp.
your book that was just releasedyesterday Takes a posture and a
(02:16):
position yes, congratulationson that Takes a posture and
position that you spent 30 years, I think you said, in the
pre-show in this industry ofwhite American, white
evangelicalism, this subcultureof camping.
(02:38):
Wow, you have a lot to unpackwith us today and now you're
here to kind of talk about itand also talk against it.
And from an expansionistperspective today, the
expansionist podcast it allowsus to take something that we've
always thought as truth andstretch that thing.
(03:02):
So here we are, we're going tostretch with you today and hear
your heart, and I'm highlycurious I have like the first
question I want to ask is howdid this shift occur in you,
where you spent 30 years andthen I'm sure it wasn't all of a
sudden, but things started toshift or change in you.
What shifted?
Did you stop believing in camp?
(03:24):
Shift or change in you whatshifted?
Did you stop believing in campor did you start believing in
some kind of other camp?
Can you share with us aboutthat?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Yeah, great question.
Also, it sounds like I probablyshould have my Amazon bio
updated.
The Color of Life came out in2019.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
So I will be sure.
Oh, there's that.
Okay, so, there's that, so I'llbe sure to talk to my's that.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Okay, so there's that .
So I'll be sure to talk to mypublicist and or whomever to get
that updated.
But church camp, which is whatwe're talking about today, as we
were chatting about before theshow, I went to my first camp,
if you count being a camper in1988 when I was nine years old,
(04:08):
being a camper in 1988 when Iwas nine years old, and you
could say that I didn't leaveuntil 2018, which was the last
time I ever spoke at a camp.
The last youth camp I everspoke at was in 2014.
And then the last family camp,again in this particular
environment, under the umbrellaof white evangelicalism, was in
2018.
So, 30 years of my life.
As far as the breaking point orwhat changed or what happened,
the reality is that I loved campfor a long, long time and I do
(04:31):
continue to love camp.
I think it is a magical, sacredplace and I recognize the
tension of harm that oftenhappens theologically but also
to people, and it was that harmthat started to turn me away In
(04:52):
particular.
It was one of those that Ibegan to see the harm that was
happening to LGBTQ identifyingfolks in particular, and even if
I couldn't articulate what Iwas seeing or how it was um
causing friction within me.
There was something that wasn'tright, Um, and and I began to
(05:13):
ask more questions and sometimes, um, it really began to feel
like there were more questionsthan answers, which, which, I,
side note, value so much, um,but for me, it was starting to
see the harm caused to the queercommunity, to people of color
and to women in particular.
That began to change my mind.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, I want to hear I want to hear that story a
little bit.
The queer story is themarginalized story, like what,
what surfaced for you in, orwhat were you seeing in um, in
that tribe, um, what was goingon?
Speaker 4 (05:49):
yeah, um, well, for readers, um, for those who pick
up this book, they will see thevery first page.
It says to michael weldon andsarah powell, two camp friends
who changed the story for me and, um, without getting deep into
either of their stories Sarah'sstory is actually told in the
book and I have permission totell her story but those were
(06:12):
two camp friends that I workedwith for a number of years who
loved Jesus more than anyone.
I knew those two people asindividuals, but also
collectively.
They changed lives and theywere both kicked out.
They were kicked out of theenvironments that they had
(06:35):
called home, that they had foundan identity in, that they had
been a part of, which is to sayof white evangelical church camp
environments when they came outor when they were outed white
evangelical church campenvironments when they came out
or when they were outed.
(06:56):
And for me, that was thedissonance, was watching both of
them and wondering, ascomplicit as I was sometimes
also going.
This doesn't seem right.
When it comes to the God who islove, when it comes to this God
that I am meeting and promoting, who does no harm If that is
who I truly believe that God is,that God is a God of love and
that God then calls us to bepeople of love and people who do
(07:17):
no harm, then these two don'talign, they don't go together
anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I love that you brought that up to us, because
that is for us, for Shelly andmyself, but I hope for the world
becoming this, understandingthat God is love.
Everything else needs to bowits knee to that truth.
You know Jesus being love andthe word being subject to who
(07:43):
Jesus actually is.
But in the book of Romans itsays that love does no harm to
its neighbor and therefore loveis the fulfillment of the law,
and so our responsibility aspeople who are saying that we're
followers of Jesus must be alsoto make sure that love is being
done to our neighbors.
(08:04):
Like my freedom or my wholenessis not mine alone, it is a
collective, it is I am supposedto be my brother's keeper, and
so if my brothers or sisters arebeing harmed, it is then my
responsibility to say we need tostop this or we need to open a
door and have a dialogue so thiscan stop.
(08:24):
But to be able to say here isthe bottom line for all of us If
it's harming a neighbor, thenwe absolutely must talk about it
.
We must stop it.
For me, I look at this I havemany, many Jewish friends and I
love them and have loved them mywhole life.
But if I am not, a person whodoesn't just say, say there
(08:45):
needs to be freedom andwholeness for the Jewish people,
but also freedom and wholenessfor my Muslim brothers and
sisters and their friends aswell.
So being able to say it's notjust for one, but it's for all,
this is a really importantconversation to have and to look
at and go.
What am I doing to bringwholeness into the conversation?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Carol, what were you witnessing with women?
That was another tribe that youjust named that caused the
dissidence for you.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, and again, this question is interesting for me
to answer because I recognize inand through the book that camp
was a place and again, thisparticular facet of Christian
camping, um camp was a placethat exalted me and exalted me
as a woman, because I was whothey were looking for.
Um, I fit the bill, I fit themold.
(09:36):
However you want to say it Now,I I was mostly then speaking Um
, so part of it I was a camper,but then I was a volunteer, I
was a summer staff and then asummer staff person and then,
when I graduated from college, Ibecame a high school English
teacher.
So I had my summers off and Istill needed to pay rent.
I didn't know how to have a 12month paycheck, so I needed to
(10:01):
somehow pay rent during thesummer and ended up starting to
speak during the summer.
So I was a camp speaker atcamps that would allow women to
speak that were stillevangelical.
So in that way I did benefitfrom these environments in being
able to be the person whoproclaimed the gospel, who stood
(10:21):
up on stage, who preached orspoke to hundreds upon thousands
of students over really a15-year period.
But, that being said, these werealso environments in a myriad
of different ways.
Oftentimes there was a singularimage of God that was presented
(10:41):
, image of God that waspresented, and that was a
singular image that was both amale and a father figure.
And I think, as we've spokenbriefly about, to then limit God
to either being male or female,and or to limit God solely to
being a father, is doing adisservice not only to women but
(11:03):
also to young men.
But but I think about all ofthose kids, those elementary,
middle and high school studentsthat I spoke of, to whom I only
used or referenced male pronounsand only introduced the figure
of God as a father to them andin that way, um, I, I was, I was
also saying this is who Godmost likes, this is who God most
(11:26):
prefers, and so I was alsoinadvertently toward myself and
to others, favoring one half ofthe population over the other.
I think when that then happenswhich does happen in a lot of
white evangelical environmentsthat are limited solely to male
images of God, then that's alsowhere you begin to see elements
(11:50):
of complementarianism that playinto men and women having
distinct roles.
That then plays into purityculture, which absolutely comes
out full force in environmentslike this, many times to the
detriment of young girls andwomen, and that we could even go
so far as to saying also thenplays into values of white
(12:12):
Christian nationalism.
So this is something that Iunpack quite a bit in one of the
chapters, but it's fascinatingto see how the dominoes start
falling, all from simplyintroducing a singular image of
who God might be.
That was a lot.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
That was a lot to hold and to soak with you right
there.
And yet Heather and I both grewup in evangelical churches, so
we know exactly what you arereferring to here, with the
division between male and femalewhich I think is part of the
journey.
Now, for myself, is to reallyexpress the feminine spirit of
(12:56):
God in ways that maybe we missedalong the way, got pictures or
pieces of her, but now we havethis opportunity to talk more
about the feminine.
But yes, those evangelicalroots are so deep and so
(13:17):
threaded in our fabric that whenI saw the title of your book
and this invitation about churchcamp, wow, my mind went like in
a thousand directions.
Some very exciting times atchurch camp and others.
I can remember when I was 12years old.
(13:38):
That was just this crazyevangelical move and I knew it
was crazy and yet I compliedwith it.
And and so talk to us a littlebit about the.
This subculture of camping isused to become a structure for
(14:13):
this normative white cultureevangelicalism.
How does this keep happening?
Is it still happening?
Obviously, I'm not involved inchurch camping or church camp I
don't know if Heather is but isthis still?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
happening.
Heather is not.
Sorry, did you have something,heather?
No, I just said Heather is not.
Shelly said are you stillinvolved in church camp?
I said Heather is not.
I want to just jump in here,kara, because you have, I'm sure
, something to say to that andI'm very interested in it.
But to me, as we start talkingabout church camp again and
Shelly and I coming fromevangelical, fundamental type of
Christianity, I mourn the factthat we were so close to
(14:53):
something else.
You know, I think about thefact that you take a bunch of
people and you take them outinto the forest I mean, I went
to Silver Birch Camp up northand it is glorious into these
Silver Birch forests and you getthem away from their work, you
get them away from the thingsthat maybe distract them.
And the camps that I have beento have been beautiful, of
(15:16):
course, as God designed, butjust towering beautiful trees,
of course, as God designed, butyou know, just towering
beautiful trees, usually asparkling lake, usually, you
know, a cooler time of the year,or even in the forest it's
cooler.
And so I now I look at that andgo.
What an incredible experienceit would have been to say
nothing, like to bring peopleout and say, here, sit with a
(15:37):
tree for a while, and of coursethen that would have been
absolutely not allowed.
But to me I look at that and gooh, we were so close, we were so
close to the divine, we were soclose to the mystery, we were
so close to going get outside ofyourself and talk with somebody
who doesn't look like you, whodoesn't pray like you, who
doesn't listen like you, andlearn something from that.
(16:02):
Pray like you, who doesn'tlisten like you and learn
something from that.
And so I am hopeful that on allthe places that we were
skirting by, that the spirit isstill very able to like, reveal
or unveil things, and therecould be truths for that.
But I listened to us talk aboutthe beginning of what this is,
and I would tell people that Iwould love for us to go back
(16:22):
outside and to receive earth asour first monastery.
You know, to be able to saywhat is it like?
If you're struggling right nowto figure out these things, if
that feels, you know, like youhave bad experiences with church
camp, I mean, maybe yours areonly good and I hope that for
you, but if you have badexperiences, to still go back
out to a camp and to sit backand go.
What would you have said to me,god, if you were allowed to
(16:44):
speak?
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah, Well, I feel like, between what both of you
just said, it might take me atleast five hours to respond.
Okay, I'll try.
I'll try so in under fiveminutes.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
what kind of response can you or actually, what can
you just point us in thedirection of?
We can read your book.
That's really exciting, butwhat can we think about that we
haven't thought about before?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Yeah, no, I absolutely have responsive
thoughts.
I just think I'm just sittinghere also loving the fact that
we really could chat for thenext day, because there's, I
feel like we're on the same page.
There's so much to talk about.
So so first I'll work backwards, but first of all, heather,
what you said as camps are, Ilove camp.
I mean and as I mentionedbefore we began recording I love
(17:34):
camp and because I love camp, Icriticize camp.
Camps were originally intendedand I would say are still
intended, even if things havegotten a little awry in some
environments not allenvironments, but camps were
originally intended as a placeof getting out in nature, of
(17:58):
creator, kissing creation, ofhumans being able to meet with
God.
In that way, take me to a campand all I have to do is just sit
there under a tree, maybe withmy bug spray, and stare at
creation, stare at the worldaround me, because I know and I
(18:19):
can trust that in that momentGod will find me.
Now, in that there are alsothere are so many conversations
that can happen here about howwe don't actually need to do a
whole lot in order for humans tomeet God, which is to say, for
God to meet humans, and I thinkthere also have become overly
programmatic elements in camps,not only with the aesthetics and
(18:44):
in sometimes feeling like wehave to make them too beautiful,
but also in the programmaticsthat come to kids and humans
when that is not needed.
You don't need that much tostep into nature, but again, I
think there is a point ofcrossing the line and this is
perhaps where we get into, Iwould say, a religion and a
(19:08):
spirituality that is oftentimesmarked by exclusion, and that is
, I think again in thisparticular instance or facet of
white evangelicalism, what isoften found or what often
happens.
So that's where you do.
Then I think it startsoftentimes with an exclusion
toward those who might be moreprogressive in their theology.
If we were to look at the wayin which evangelicals might
(19:33):
define themselves, be thatpolitically within, religiously,
within their belief systems, orculturally within religiously
within their belief systems orculturally, um, there is a,
there is a prescribed norm ofwhat you believe and of what you
say and of how you vote, and ifyou do anything that's outside
of that, then you're notnecessarily welcomed in.
Um, it might be an exclusiontoward those who don't believe
(19:55):
that the bible is um, theliteral word of god, which is
part of oftentimes, um, thebevyton quadrilateral, how
evangelicals define themselvesor would explain themselves.
But that exclusionism, or thoseexclusionary practices, can
then also go and extend towardpeople groups.
So that's when it extendstoward women.
(20:18):
We can see some of the billsthat are in the House right now
that are not benefiting those ofus who are women.
It can also very much extendtoward anti-LGBTQ rhetoric and
within that it can furtherextend, whether overtly or not,
toward people of color, towardbenefiting those who look more
(20:41):
like the three of us than likemy husband and sons, than like
the minority majority culturenow in the US.
So I think that's where we canlook at white evangelicalism,
and white evangelicalism isoftentimes about who holds the
power and who is benefiting fromthat power, and in that way,
(21:04):
it's not all that different inour camps.
Really, I'm looking at onefacet of white evangelicalism,
but I think readers can alsolook at this book and say, oh,
this is one example of it, butthe reality is that this happens
in a number of different areasand places, sure, and that
affects all of us.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
We want to pause and take a moment and let you know
how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
(21:46):
expansionistheologycom.
There's a little tiny episodeof the Simpsons and maybe you
know about it, but one neighboris leaving and he said come with
us to church camp so you canlearn how to judge.
And I was thinking how terrible, but how absolutely apropos.
Like that's where we learn tobe judgmental, that's how we
know who's in and who's out, whowe should fellowship with or
(22:08):
who we should learn from.
And so this invitation is to beable to look at things and go.
Okay, I see that as problematic,but how is there any kind of
redeemable good or what can welearn from that experience?
And for Shelly and I inparticular, we're looking at
(22:31):
this and going how can thespirit enlarge our way of seeing
or enlarge our way ofunderstanding?
And to be able to look at thesetimes and going.
What is it?
I think the intention maybe wasgood, maybe it wasn't but the
idea of taking time out of yourcalendar year and being able to
(22:51):
go.
I want to be immersed insomething, I think, that's still
really beautiful and holy, andto find people that you could do
something like that with theinvitation, I think, into
stepping out of regular intosomething else, particularly in
nature.
There's an ancient AmericanIndian proverb that says the
trees are our first elders To beable to listen to them, speak
(23:26):
to us of God and of good, andnot only of God outside, but who
we are in relation to who Godmade us to be.
And I think that there's aninvitation there that asks us to
ask really hard questions andgo yeah, is there anything good
in this?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
Yeah, and I will say that one of the things I did try
to do, I didn't want to beprescriptive, and it's not, in
my opinion, a terriblyprescriptive book.
It's instead more spiritualmemoir with a bit of theology
and a bit of journalism.
But one could look at everychapter, minus the prologue and
(23:55):
epilogue, and see it divided outinto three different ways, and
that is what I initially ororiginally said from the stage
when I was a camp speaker.
A little bit of that, what waswrong or what was implied with
what I said.
And that's where we're thenlooking at elements of purity
culture, like we talked about,or we're perhaps looking at
(24:16):
exclusion that happens towardthe queer community, or we're
looking at bad theology.
But then the third part is thatthere is it's, I imagine, new
ways forward, and I do hope thatreaders will be able to grasp
that part where, instead ofJesus being the exclusionary
(24:39):
tool that is used to kick peopleto the curb, we say, okay, if
Christ is the center, which iswhat we believe we were just
talking about this before theshow then what does it mean to
expand our boundaries or noteven have boundaries, but just
to say everyone is already in,you already belong, you belong.
This is who you are, and it'snot, then, about the professed
(25:01):
belief or whatever else, orabout the walls that we draw
around, but it's just about thefact that you are in.
So I do hope that readers canalso latch on to that hope for a
new way forward, and perhapsthat will change some of the
camps along the way.
That is hopeful.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And I think that would be my hope for sure is
that somehow this space ofgetting youth to experience a
posture of Christ, that you know, maybe they need to be outside,
they need to be in a differentlocation, that that that is the
(25:44):
hopeful, the hopeful side of ofof that kind of immersion, um, I
I wonder if you will, uh, terry, with us just for a few minutes
.
You mentioned, um, the wordsthat you're, that you love camp
and and and that you the book isabout also criticizing it and
(26:11):
from a spiritual perspective,the ways that we were taught.
And then we grow up and wedon't necessarily believe that
anymore.
And then we grow up and wedon't necessarily believe that
anymore.
(26:41):
We're often the fingers, oftenpointed and saying, well, shelly
, some of these other exercisesthat you write about in the book
, you know, how does thatcriticism lead you, or lead
others to finding a better wayto make, to take what's what the
(27:06):
story has been handed to us andmake uh, beautiful the story
like, how do we?
How do we do that?
How do we do that as, as women,as leaders, as camp counselors,
as vacation Bible school isgetting ready to start all over
the country, right, like howVacation Bible School is getting
ready to start all over thecountry.
Right, like, how does thisstepping back with a critical
(27:32):
eye and saying there's more hereand there's something beautiful
here, and how do we do that?
I know that's kind of in theend of the book, but talk to us
about that.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
I mean, I think one of the first things I think
about when you ask that questionis that the reality is that a
lot of people don't want tocriticize certain parts of the
church or certain parts ofspirituality, even sometimes
because of the sacred cow andmaybe I need to work through
this analogy more but I thinkabout the number of.
(28:07):
I think about the reaction thatcame from different people.
Even when I signed the book or,you know, signed a deal for the
book and or announced it, therewere those, in particular,
those who are still very muchdeep in this, in that world,
whose response toward me wassadness.
They were sad that I was goingto do that.
(28:28):
I think there was also anassumption of bitterness.
There was assumption, anassumption of anger, um, which,
for me, um, readers might decidethat that's how I feel, but I
also feel like I've had enoughtime away.
Um, this is not a reactionaryspiritual memoir.
This is, um, this is a memoirthat is is very much, uh, I much
.
I mean it's been 10 years sinceI spoke to youth and apparently
(28:53):
I can't do math I guess thatwould be 11 years, and then,
whatever, 2025 minus 2018 isseven years since I spoke at a
family camp.
The reality is that it's been along time since I've been in
that environment, and so I'vehad a lot of time to think and
mull over, and from that hascome new ways of thinking.
(29:15):
There's been a spiritualevolution on my part, and that
is where this criticism happens,but I also I sit here and go,
if we can.
If the invitation for each oneof us is to sometimes just do
one thing, to do our one thing,then this is my one thing, and
(29:35):
this one thing is the speakingup that I am also doing on
behalf of those who were harmed,on behalf of those who continue
to experience harm, becausethis is not just something that
happened at the height ofChristian camping in the 90s,
when Christian camping was atits absolute height, but this is
something that still happenstoday.
(29:56):
Again to the people, groups thatwe've named a number of times,
there are harmful theologiesthat are continuing to be
promoted, that are exclusionaryin nature, that are making kids
feel horrible about themselves,that are shaming people.
This is not just kids, though.
I mean.
This is grownups, and so,whether that relates to VVS
(30:18):
during the summer months,whether that relates to the
camps we send our kids, towhether that relates to the
pulpits and the excuse me, thepews that many of us find
ourselves in that are stillbelieving these messages.
What does it mean to criticizewith a gentleness which is to
say to call out and to do my onething?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I think you talk about in the book.
I think it was your story,maybe you were quoting someone
else that they were gettingready to go to camp.
I think it was your kids, right, and you were having this
conversation with.
They wanted to go to camp, butyou weren't sure what they were
going to experience at the camp,and so you sat down and you had
(31:02):
this conversation about here'swhat you're going to hear.
Sat down and had you had thisconversation about here's what
you're going to hear, here's youknow, and then I think maybe
when they came home, you hadanother conversation.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Was that your kids or was that someone else's kids in
the book?
No, so my kids have notactually been to church camp yet
, or at least not to theseparticular types of church camps
.
I have written a bit about thispublicly, certainly in the book
.
One of the questions that Iasked, which was also part of
what birthed this book, was, inthis tension of paradox,
realizing how deeply impactfuland formative camps had been to
(31:40):
me, but also realizing that Ididn't know if I could send my
own kids there.
That was a question that Ireally wrestled with, and that
was part of what led to thisbook as far as it goes.
With some of my other writingthat I've done, I've oftentimes
asked or been asked thatquestion, and for me, whatever
the parent or caregiver decidesI support.
(32:03):
I have had a number of friends,though, who have sent their
kids to environments like this,but they have.
They have buoyed it inconversation.
They've buoyed it inconversations with their
children about their own familyvalues, about what they believe
theologically, about who theyare, and, and in that way,
(32:25):
they've talked about it beforebefore their.
That way, they've talked aboutit before before their children
leave.
They've talked about itafterwards.
And then, those values, thosevalues of love and inclusivity,
have oftentimes been morepositive than that which the
camp may have given them.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I was going to ask what's your favorite camp song.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
My favorite camp song .
Um, I mean, do you want me tosing it?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Absolutely A hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
Well, I don't know if this is my favorite cause it
also has a little bit of badtheology, but it's certainly one
of the most memorable.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Also.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I would like to say this is the first podcast that
I'm singing.
This song on.
This is awesome and it's goingto this goes circa back to 1988.
So we're going back there, butit's a real crowd pleaser.
It's called oh, you Can't Getto Heaven.
So again, we need some newtheology written about it.
But it goes like this and youmight have to sing it after me
(33:28):
oh, you can't get to heaven.
Oh you can't get to heaven.
Yeah, okay, so we'll start it.
So I sing, you repeat oh youcan't get to heaven.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Oh, you can't get to heaven In a Kleenex box.
In a Kleenex box?
Oh, you can't get to heaven.
Oh, you can't.
Oh, you can't get to heaven Ina Kleenex box.
Oh, you can't get to heaven ina Kleenex box Because God don't
like them little snots.
(33:59):
All my sins are washed away.
I've been redeemed by the bloodof the Lamb.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Now again, the theology is horrible, so you
might want to delete this fromthe episode.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
No, it's fun this is a part of church camp.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
This is a part of church camp.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Silly songs yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
And that song, including God's feelings towards
all them little snots, hasstayed in my head for over 30
years now, over 40 years reallyyeah, I think I need a better
camp song.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, I know, a big part of camp, though, is the
singing, and there is somethingso powerful about the songs that
we sing when we're together,when we have experiences, what
we do.
And I will date myself and sayI went to church camp in the 70s
, so yeah, so I have a lot ofchurch camp and through a lot of
(34:54):
decades in fact, from attendingchurch camp to leading church
camp as youth pastors and thingslike that.
So I do love a church camp song.
There is something about Turnyour Eyes upon Jesus around a
campfire.
That's really beautiful, and so,while there's much that has to
be thoroughly examined andquestioned, there is some real
(35:16):
beauty that happens, and again,I'm hopeful because we were so
close to things it doesn't again, let us take some
responsibility and say if youwere harmed in a church camp, it
shouldn't have happened, andwe're really sorry that.
I don't know personally how tomake an amends to you, but you
should hear the church, or atleast women in the church,
(35:39):
saying that should have neverhappened.
You should have never beenshamed or felt excluded, and so
may the God of all grace and maythe Holy Spirit be comfort to
you.
May you find a good therapistor people that you can talk to
about that.
But there are wonderful timesthat people have and experienced
at camp and there are horribletimes, and it can be both, and I
(36:03):
think that that's part of usliving a complicated life and
having a spirituality that isstrong enough to be both in both
places for us to be able to saythat was wrong.
It's terrible, we need torepent and never do that again.
And then there's other timeswe'll say but being together and
exploring a furtherspirituality, that's really
(36:24):
beautiful.
And how do we do that withoutharming people?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
And I love that you're stretching all of us in
this book to see beyond, even,maybe, what we missed, what we
were close to, but now we cansee it maybe more clearly.
What we were close to, but nowwe can see it maybe more clearly
.
And kudos to you for followingyour heart in this message.
(36:53):
It's not easy to follow ourhearts and it's not easy to
write it down and have otherpeople read it once you've
followed your heart.
So kudos regarding that and wewish you the best in this book
and that it touches and reachessome YWAM people and that it
(37:13):
touches and reaches some younglife and some wildlife and some
of these places where maybe harmhas been done.
I know some people in thosecamps, in those places, that
have shared their stories and sohopefully this book will get
into the hands of the peoplethat need to heal and that your
(37:37):
message will be elevated too.
Grace to you.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Do you have a favorite bookstore that you want
to recommend people buy from,or just their favorite
bookstores?
Speaker 4 (37:47):
I would say both and I'm happy to send you a link to
put in show notes, but I alwaysrecommend a great good place for
books in Oakland, california.
They threw me a launch partylast night, which was super fun,
so I will sign any book ordersthat come in and they will mail
those out.
Otherwise, yes, please supportyour own local independent
(38:08):
bookstore.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionistheologycom.
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