January 23, 2025 • 31 mins
Imagine if your ordinary morning coffee could serve as a conduit for divine joy. Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake invite you to explore this notion as we celebrate the Advent season by discovering joy amidst the ordinary. Through Mary's extraordinary story, we learn how everyday rituals, like savoring a cup of coffee, can become holy moments that ground us in love and holiness. Our lighthearted musings even question whether Mary had her morning brew before the angelic encounter, setting the stage for a deeper reflection on finding joy as a form of defiance against despair.
Join us as we celebrate the feminine spirit by honoring the profound experiences of Mary and Elizabeth, two women who courageously challenged the status quo. We delve into the power of Mary's Song, a proclamation that uplifts the oppressed and heralds a new order through love's transformative power. Conversations in this episode reveal the strength found in surrender, the resilience in spiritual rituals, and the crucial role women play in divine narratives. This enriching dialogue invites you to embrace a transformative understanding of divinity and join a revolution of love, guided by Mary's faithful path and willingness to follow divine guidance.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heather Drake (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Shelly Shepherd (00:18):
Merry.
Heather Drake (00:19):
Christmas to you, Heather Drake.
Happy Advent to you, ShelleyShepard.
Shelly Shepherd (00:24):
What a delight to be here with you to share in
this week of joy.
I am just so joyful today tohave this time together.
Thank you for that.
Heather Drake (00:36):
It is the week of joy in the liturgical calendar
and in the understanding ofwhere we are in this.
The new year that started onDecember the 1st, that starts
with this.
Prepare the way and are holdingspace to say how are we
preparing our own souls for thecoming of Christ, of Christ
(00:57):
being born in us, of love beingborn of us, of peace being born
from us?
What does it look like for usto consider, for us to surrender
, for us to acknowledge andmaybe even sit with the
beautiful path that is shown tous by Mary?
And we were talking last weekabout how joy is this defiance?
(01:21):
It's an intentional defiance,and I love that idea of when
despair is all around us, whenwar looms, when it can feel so
overwhelming just to be presentin the world that we're in.
That joy says there issomething more.
There's so much more.
There's something to savor,there's good here, and so I'm so
(01:44):
looking forward to ourconversation.
We're holding these beautiful,empowering thoughts that say
what is it like for us toparticipate in holding peace
within ourselves?
Shelly Shepherd (01:58):
I heard a friend the other day say that,
um, that joy is more than beinghappy.
Yes, it is this place of umthat the joy comes, when we're,
uh, where we should be, and Ithought that was that was an
interesting, an interesting wayof of talking about joy, because
(02:19):
I think sometimes with the,with the excitement of of Advent
and Christmas, um, there isthis.
Oh, I'm supposed to be bubblyand happy and exuding all of
these Christmassy kinds ofthoughts and songs, and I'm just
this happy person, but I thinkAdvent teaches us that joy comes
(02:44):
when we are where we need to be.
Heather Drake (02:47):
It's a fascinating thought to me that
joy comes perhaps when you'rewhere you need to be.
But until that joy arrives, howdo you know that you're where
you need to be?
I love that idea of theordinary, and I think that's
what we're gifted with in thispart of the season is, according
to the story that we're given,mary is doing ordinary things
(03:10):
when the angel appears to herand invites her to co-create
with God, and so sometimes Ithink that we can become
disheartened in our ordinarythings, and one of the practices
that you and I have held nowfor more than a year is paying
attention to how sacredeverything is.
I mean, what kind of thingscould Mary have been doing?
(03:31):
Probably, you know, I mean,perhaps she was in the field,
but this idea that she wasprobably doing, you know,
ancient housework where therewas a lot of things to be done,
to prepare meals, to take careof animals, to take care of
other family members, and it wasin that place of her
faithfulness in the ordinarythat the extraordinary comes to
(03:52):
her, and the extraordinary comesto her in this very cryptic way
, and so to be able to say thatyou're going to have joy when
you're in the right place.
I mean it's a fascinatingthought.
But I'm also thinking that joyto me reminds me that it's not
always happiness, but joy comesfrom being anchored in love,
that, no matter what thesituation is, no matter where I
(04:13):
find myself, that I'm deeplyconnected to abiding love, to
this belovedness, to thisholiness that comes from abiding
with God.
And so, again, I'm fascinatedby this subject.
I think we could talk aboutMary all the time and not
exhaust it.
I think that she is such abeautiful model for us on how I
(04:38):
mean she's, in the way thatwe're gifted the First Testament
, we're showed this woman's pathto embodying the Christ, and
then so the invitation is for usas women and as men.
How do we allow Christ to beformed in us?
How do we allow this peace?
How do we allow mercy?
(04:59):
How do we allow just the beautythat is the light of God?
How do we allow that to beformed in us?
And I think Mary has left us abeautiful path and a way to
follow.
Shelly Shepherd (05:13):
Do you think that Mary had had her coffee
Heather before the angelappeared?
I'm not sure she did.
Had she had her morning ritual,had she taken her quiet time?
She may have had morningrituals.
Heather Drake (05:26):
but the very fact that she said how can this be?
Leads me to believe that maybethe French press hadn't all the
way brewed, like, maybe she wasin the middle of that, but it
had not yet been four minutes,so she couldn't wrap her mind
around.
How can this be?
The messenger comes to her andsays, hey, god wants to do this
and wants to know if you want inon it.
And then she thinks about thedetails.
(05:48):
Okay, how can this be?
And so I think that morningcoffee also brings me a little
clarity on how can this be, andso?
Shelly Shepherd (05:59):
maybe she hadn't had her coffee yet.
Yeah, we talk about theseordinary.
You know, these moments of joyhappen in the ordinary and for
some people that's coffee, forme it's kombucha, for you it's
definitely French press coffee,right, but there's joy in that
moment that might have nothingto do with the Christmas story
(06:22):
nothing to do with the Christmasstory and yet if you compound
that joy over time, over manycups of coffee, over many
glasses of kombucha, you get toa place of wow.
I want more of that kind of joy.
I want joy when I'm walking onthe path.
(06:43):
I want joy when I'm riding mybike.
I want joy when I'm serving inoutreach.
I want joy when I'm talking toa friend or visiting a neighbor
or at the hospital with somebodythat is not going to make it to
(07:03):
spill from the ordinary intothe extraordinary.
And I wonder if Mary, in thatordinary moment of her waking
that morning and this angelicpresence appears, had she
already prepared.
You say she was hesitant.
The text says why me?
Heather Drake (07:24):
Yeah, I don't know that she was hesitant, but
she certainly asked questionsand I commend her for that, as
we all should.
What is it going to look likefor me to abandon ways of
thinking that don't allow theshalom of God to be between me
and my neighbor?
What is it going to look like?
(07:46):
And I'm sure Mary was capableof saying I think this is
important, you and I have talkedabout it, but the invitation
here is to consent.
The spirit is up to something.
The spirit that hovered atcreation over the chaos is once
again going to hover over thisfeminine body and create
something that is not onlyrevolutionary but is for the
(08:10):
saving of the whole world.
And so the invitation is do youwant to co-create with us?
And I think that's what Jesuskept extending to us this
invitation Will you allow thekingdom to be born in you?
Will you allow the kingdom tobe in the middle of you?
Will you allow the reign ofGod's kingdom here among you?
(08:32):
And she went from how can thisbe?
And her next response was okay,let it be.
Let it be unto me, according toyour and I love very much how
the awe of seeing an angelicbeing offering to her an
invitation of co-creating wasn'ttoo extravagant.
(08:55):
She got what she needed, as faras you know.
I don't know if she got details, but she had reassurance, and
maybe the reassurance came fromthe fact that she already knew
the Psalms and she knew thatthere was a promise of a Messiah
coming and she could lean backon the things that she had heard
before.
But there, certainly, untilthis point, we are at a unique
(09:16):
place in history where we get tosay we get to look back on the
story and so we know the end.
Shelly Shepherd (09:21):
But she just saw the right thing, and so that
took so much hope and so muchcourage and so much intention to
say be it unto me, according toyour word certainly as a brown
(09:45):
refugee female was standing in apeculiar place, certainly
vulnerable, yes, very vulnerable, and I believe the divinity
that was present in thatconversation to come to a woman
(10:12):
with this invitation that wouldsomehow make it even into our
lives is pretty phenomenal.
It's pretty phenomenal to methat God, that Yahweh, that
(10:33):
Spirit, took on this form tobring life, to bring joy, to
bring peace, to bring hope, tobring love into the world.
And yet it seems like it getsharder and harder to understand
(10:55):
that point of the story or toget people to believe or to even
grapple with.
Is this possible?
Could this have even reallyhappened?
Is this some kind of myth orsomebody's story that was made
(11:16):
up in ancient ancestors andhanded down?
Heather Drake (11:20):
Yeah, but stories are so powerful and Jesus is
the master of the metaphorhimself and he is the living
word, the word made flesh, andso I prickle at the idea of
somebody saying it's just astory.
Stories are how we understandthe world, but you've heard
people say that.
Shelly Shepherd (11:39):
You've heard people say this is just a story.
Heather Drake (11:41):
Yes, yes, yes right, but there's always a
deeper magic still, to quote CSLewis, like there's so much more
, even under the story.
But the stories are how we makesense of our world, and so to
have a story that has beengifted to us and saying this is
what it looks like when thisyoung woman says how can this be
(12:03):
?
And then moves into let it be.
And then this is the prayerthat she prays, and then we're
gifted some other words that sheprays, the Magnificat, and then
we're so many times we'relistening to her, and then we
hear a repetition in Jesus'swords where he is in a place of
(12:24):
vulnerability and he says let itbe unto me.
According to your word Soundslike not my will but yours be
done.
When Jesus says this is my bodybroken for you that it was
first Mary whose body was broken.
That's right To bring the worldthe incarnate of Christ here.
(12:46):
And so her body broken, notonly in childbirth, but broken
as she continues to feed him, asshe nurses him, as she goes
through recovery of having thisbaby.
There is so much brokennessthat happens in a woman's life
and in allowing the Christ.
(13:08):
So to me it's very hopeful whenI see broken places.
There's that beautiful lyric byLeonard Cohen this is how the
light gets in, and so in women'slives I have such hope.
The same thing when I see chaosand I'm like, oh, spirit, come
and hover here because, look,we've made a giant mess.
You can come here and empowerus to live differently, to see
(13:31):
differently, to change our wayof thinking, to invite the
Christ to be formed in us.
This is the hope of the worldthat light and love would always
be seen in us, that we would bethe hands and feet.
There's the ancients who talkabout Christ has no body here
now, except for yours, you arethe body of Christ.
(13:54):
And so I hear the song of Maryand I hear the prayers of Mary,
and they inspire me in a way offollowing.
What does it look like for meto say I'm going to give up this
way of thinking, I'm going togive up this plan, I'm going to
give up this, whatever it is,because there's a bigger picture
(14:15):
?
Shelly Shepherd (14:17):
Are we asking that same question of ourselves
every Advent, every Christmas,every season of the church?
Are we asking ourselves abouthow that surrender looks like If
she was the first person tosurrender to the incarnation?
(14:41):
Meaning I am going to bring,I'm going to humble myself, I'm
going to surrender, I'm going toaccept this, I consent to this.
Is that part of our posture?
And have we forgotten how?
Heather Drake (14:56):
And if we've forgotten how.
If that is the case, then wecan look to Mary, and this is
the beautiful invitation.
I love that right after thishappens, the next thing that we
hear is that she goes to seeElizabeth and she goes to see
another woman and sort this out.
Let me tell you what justhappened to me.
(15:17):
Let me tell you what I think, Isaw, what I think I heard, and
in the presence of another woman.
There is this confirmation, andso I love that this story is
woven together between the youngand the old, between women,
between this hope for a worldthat is clearly in need of
(15:42):
changing, in need of the miracle, is clearly in need of changing
, in need of the miracle, and Ifind that that feels like it's
very replicated here.
Our world is in need of amiracle, our world is in need of
a healer, and Mary showed usthe path in bringing Jesus, the
healer before, and so theinvitation is for us to prepare
(16:02):
ourselves.
What would it look like for youto prepare your mind?
That love would come and beformed in you, would be born in
you, would be expressed throughyou in such a way that all of
the goodness that God means forpeople to hear and to see would
be something that they wouldwitness in just being in our
(16:23):
presence.
That's exciting to me.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
we are that you've joined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
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(16:43):
expansionistheologycom.
Shelly Shepherd (16:46):
Yes, and a beautiful hope as well.
I wonder about the strugglewith empire that Mary and
Elizabeth I'm going to sit withthat for a second In their
conversation, as she enteredElizabeth's home and stayed
(17:09):
there for a while with Elizabethand she was also pregnant with
John the Baptist, knowing thatthey were in a situation where
(17:34):
things were being controlled byempire, what was going through
their minds, particularly aswomen in this situation?
I just find myself fascinatedin my holy imagination to think
about the conversation that theywere having.
And then, lo and behold, theempire tries to kill.
(17:57):
As soon as Jesus comes on thescene, here comes the empire
after the firstborn and thenthey flee to Egypt.
But the marginalization of thiswhole context, like what part
(18:18):
of that can you and I identifywith today in this story?
Heather Drake (18:24):
Well, I love that when she goes to see Elizabeth,
elizabeth greets her loudly andsays the mother of my Lord.
So something in Elizabethidentified the Christ that is
being formed in Mary, andElizabeth is the first one to
acknowledge that Lordship, thatChrist.
Okay, this is going to be theone that I follow so clearly,
(18:47):
this really deep connectionElizabeth has with the Spirit
certainly has with her familyhere, but with this other woman
and then before then, yourquestion was what was their
interaction or what was theirexperience regarding empire?
And I think that in the Song ofMary, where she begins to say
(19:13):
listen, the people that arewealthy, they're going to be
turned away and they're going tohave need, and the people that
are powerful and are sitting onthrones, they're going to be
brought low and the people thathave no voice are going to have
a place to speak.
And the words of this are soprovocative that men in power
they were talking about theirown context, right?
Shelly Shepherd (19:35):
They were talking about their own context.
Heather Drake (19:36):
Yes, yes, yes.
Men in power have said do notread this out loud, do not let
people hear what this young girlallowed love Christ.
Hear what this young girlallowed love Christ, holiness,
newness, god incarnate to bebirthed in her.
And then she began to saythings like hey, the way that
things are, they're going to beturned upside down.
This is not the status quo, isnot status quo for the kingdom.
(19:59):
The kingdom is coming, and nowlove is the great equalizer and
things are going to be different, and so the invitation to us is
that same thing.
What does it look like to allowlove to be the great equalizer?
Where love comes, love saves usand love shows us there's a new
(20:19):
way to live, and it's notthrough empire, it's not
trusting in systems thatcontinue to oppress people, but
in the work of spirit who'sinviting us to live in a whole
other realm, a whole other wayit's definitely a story about
(20:47):
the oppressed and oppression.
Shelly Shepherd (20:47):
But yet on the other side of that coin is this
triumphant uh.
Exclamation of here I am, I'mready, I surrender, I consent, I
accept.
You know, here we go, knowingthat.
You know, here we go, knowingthat the male population was
(21:13):
probably going to look at thissituation a little bit
differently than Mary andElizabeth were seeing it.
And then the story unfoldsbiblically, from the perspective
of.
You know, most of the Bible havebeen written by men, you know,
for men and by men.
Here is this insertion of thefeminine that I don't ever want
(21:40):
to forget.
I don't ever want to lose thismoment in history where Yahweh,
where God, says I am going tocome through this woman, I am
going to start my divinity righthere with her.
And, yes, it's going toconfound everybody coming and
(22:04):
going and there's going to bethings written that are not true
about her, about him.
But here we go.
I don't want to forget thatpart of this story.
I always want that to be thepart of Advent and Christmas
that is intrinsically part of me, intrinsically part of me, and
(22:31):
I think that's where thefeminine spirit of God is such a
powerful force in the world andin my life that, wow, I just, I
can't see it any other way.
Heather Drake (22:43):
One of the paths that Mary took was the path that
led her from awe into worship.
Shelly Shepherd (22:52):
Hmm.
Heather Drake (22:54):
And I wonder if, for many of us, the awe has gone
out of the things that wepractice, or the things that we
allow ourselves to savor, or thethings that we look for and
looking for, those moments ofwonder, those moments of?
Is it possible that the spiritis up to something completely
(23:17):
different here?
Is it possible that what I'mseeing with my natural eyes is
not all that is happening here?
That's right and how can I getin on what God is doing here?
How?
Shelly Shepherd (23:30):
can I?
Heather Drake (23:30):
get in on this revolution that love is planning
.
What do I do to be a part ofthat?
My own personal surrender, myown personal invitation, Because
in my surrender, in my freedom,it allows other people to be
free.
And so I'm not saying that thisis my personal Jesus, come only
(23:50):
to save me.
Certainly that is not the paththat Mary showed us.
This is her body breaking forall of us.
This sounds very much like thewords of Jesus that said this is
my body broken for you.
Take it and eat, Pass it outamong you.
All of you eat this.
All of you become this way ofliving, where from awe we move
into wonder and worship, whereit becomes this enchantment of.
(24:13):
There is something else at workhere.
Shelly Shepherd (24:20):
And to me that's the feminine perspective,
heather, is when we try to makethis passageway of Emmanuel
with us a theological posturing,a doctrine, a dogma.
A theological posturing, adoctrine, a dogma, something
(24:44):
that has come to save us andsave us only for me, it misses
the point.
It misses the point of that.
The feminine perspective, thefeminine presence, really has to
be experienced in a differentkind of way than oh, my goodness
(25:05):
, than we've been experiencingit pretty much our entire lives,
through an angry God or througha God that people say, that God
hates people or we don't wantthose folks in our country, kind
of conversations Like it takes.
(25:25):
The feminine to me, in myexperience, is that it is this
open, inclusive.
I give my consent to spirit, Isurrender to this and I am
bringing the feminine side ofGod into the world through my
(25:46):
own vessel.
And so I have friends who donot see themselves as sacred,
beloved, holy, anything, and Itry to remind them that they are
.
(26:07):
And it started with Mary.
This is our story.
Mary's story is our story.
It's the feminine story.
It's how light breaks in, it'show love finds us, and so, yeah,
perhaps maybe we've lost theawe and the wonder that leads to
that kind of praise and thatkind of experience.
(26:29):
But oh my goodness, if we couldfind that, if we could
understand that this is where weare, where we could be, oh my
goodness.
Heather Drake (26:42):
One of the things that strikes me in this story
is the idea, not necessarily ofknowing, but of being.
Mary didn't know a lot of thedetails, but she was willing to
be inconvenienced by the Spirit,or she was to be impassioned,
(27:11):
emboldened, and also in thisidea, this indwelling of God,
and this is the promise for us,this is how it so relates to us
that what is it like for us toembody shalom?
What does it look like for usto embody?
And when you speak of thefeminine, I'm sure that people
have experienced many forms offeminine, I'm sure that people
(27:35):
have experienced many forms offeminine, but when you and I are
discussing it in this matter, Iremind you that it looks like
the spirit.
It is gentle, the spirit islong-suffering, the spirit is
(27:56):
kind, the spirit is loving, thespirit is all of those things do
not sound like what thetestimony of these women that
actually lived through it, orwhat the Second Testament tells
us the Spirit is like.
(28:21):
I think that it's essential forus to be very mindful of the God
that we have created in our ownimage.
Yes, we sometimes have a Godwho is vengeful or angry or is
coming for our enemies, but wehave a God who's sitting
everyone down at the table andsaying everybody gets to come
and eat.
You prepare a table before mein the presence of my enemies.
And Mary is this beautifulinvitation into a following of
(28:44):
Christ?
What is it like for her to beup at night with a sick toddler?
This inconvenience?
What is it up at night?
And then we began talking lastnight about when she's at the
wedding of Cana and sherecognizes we don't have what we
need.
And somehow she knows thebigger story, that there is
(29:05):
enough, that there is noscarcity, that the scarcity that
they're actually experiencingis not the reality.
And so she asks Jesus to dosomething about it.
Right, and I wonder does sheask him to do something about it
?
Because she just has this deepknowing?
Or perhaps has she witnessedthe way that abundance comes to
(29:28):
him?
And so she asks and I love inthat asking can you do something
for us?
Would you do this?
She doesn't say can, I don'tthink.
I don't think the language isthe same thing.
Would you fix this?
Would you do this?
She doesn't say can, I don'tthink.
I don't think the language isthe same thing.
Would you fix this?
Would you make this right?
And then her, leaning toward theother people that are there
present and says do whatever hetells you to do.
(29:50):
That, I think, is the path ofMary.
When you've heard the voice,when you've heard the voice
above the noise, when you haveidentified it being spirit, will
you do what the spirit tellsyou to do, whatever Jesus tells
you to do.
Do that, because maybe it's notthe same every time.
Maybe she had seen differentkind of miracles or different
(30:11):
kind of abundance or a differentkind of seeing.
Maybe she had so muchconfidence that, whatever it is
that he tells you, follow that,because that's where you're
going to find the reward, that'swhere you're going to find the
answer.
Shelly Shepherd (30:27):
Yeah, it's a beautiful tapestry that has been
handed down and protected, evenin its form that we have it now
.
It's just a beautiful story,particularly about the women,
Elizabeth and Mary, and whatthey give us in this season and
(30:52):
in this time, but also what theyteach us in our rituals and how
we show up and how we surrenderand how we continue to find the
path of resistance against theempire.
Perhaps.
Heather Drake (31:09):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Shelly Shepherd (00:18):
Merry.
Heather Drake (00:19):
Christmas to you, Heather Drake.
Happy Advent to you, ShelleyShepard.
Shelly Shepherd (00:24):
What a delight to be here with you to share in
this week of joy.
I am just so joyful today tohave this time together.
Thank you for that.
Heather Drake (00:36):
It is the week of joy in the liturgical calendar
and in the understanding ofwhere we are in this.
The new year that started onDecember the 1st, that starts
with this.
Prepare the way and are holdingspace to say how are we
preparing our own souls for thecoming of Christ, of Christ
(00:57):
being born in us, of love beingborn of us, of peace being born
from us?
What does it look like for usto consider, for us to surrender
, for us to acknowledge andmaybe even sit with the
beautiful path that is shown tous by Mary?
And we were talking last weekabout how joy is this defiance?
(01:21):
It's an intentional defiance,and I love that idea of when
despair is all around us, whenwar looms, when it can feel so
overwhelming just to be presentin the world that we're in.
That joy says there issomething more.
There's so much more.
There's something to savor,there's good here, and so I'm so
(01:44):
looking forward to ourconversation.
We're holding these beautiful,empowering thoughts that say
what is it like for us toparticipate in holding peace
within ourselves?
Shelly Shepherd (01:58):
I heard a friend the other day say that,
um, that joy is more than beinghappy.
Yes, it is this place of umthat the joy comes, when we're,
uh, where we should be, and Ithought that was that was an
interesting, an interesting wayof of talking about joy, because
(02:19):
I think sometimes with the,with the excitement of of Advent
and Christmas, um, there isthis.
Oh, I'm supposed to be bubblyand happy and exuding all of
these Christmassy kinds ofthoughts and songs, and I'm just
this happy person, but I thinkAdvent teaches us that joy comes
(02:44):
when we are where we need to be.
Heather Drake (02:47):
It's a fascinating thought to me that
joy comes perhaps when you'rewhere you need to be.
But until that joy arrives, howdo you know that you're where
you need to be?
I love that idea of theordinary, and I think that's
what we're gifted with in thispart of the season is, according
to the story that we're given,mary is doing ordinary things
(03:10):
when the angel appears to herand invites her to co-create
with God, and so sometimes Ithink that we can become
disheartened in our ordinarythings, and one of the practices
that you and I have held nowfor more than a year is paying
attention to how sacredeverything is.
I mean, what kind of thingscould Mary have been doing?
(03:31):
Probably, you know, I mean,perhaps she was in the field,
but this idea that she wasprobably doing, you know,
ancient housework where therewas a lot of things to be done,
to prepare meals, to take careof animals, to take care of
other family members, and it wasin that place of her
faithfulness in the ordinarythat the extraordinary comes to
(03:52):
her, and the extraordinary comesto her in this very cryptic way
, and so to be able to say thatyou're going to have joy when
you're in the right place.
I mean it's a fascinatingthought.
But I'm also thinking that joyto me reminds me that it's not
always happiness, but joy comesfrom being anchored in love,
that, no matter what thesituation is, no matter where I
(04:13):
find myself, that I'm deeplyconnected to abiding love, to
this belovedness, to thisholiness that comes from abiding
with God.
And so, again, I'm fascinatedby this subject.
I think we could talk aboutMary all the time and not
exhaust it.
I think that she is such abeautiful model for us on how I
(04:38):
mean she's, in the way thatwe're gifted the First Testament
, we're showed this woman's pathto embodying the Christ, and
then so the invitation is for usas women and as men.
How do we allow Christ to beformed in us?
How do we allow this peace?
How do we allow mercy?
(04:59):
How do we allow just the beautythat is the light of God?
How do we allow that to beformed in us?
And I think Mary has left us abeautiful path and a way to
follow.
Shelly Shepherd (05:13):
Do you think that Mary had had her coffee
Heather before the angelappeared?
I'm not sure she did.
Had she had her morning ritual,had she taken her quiet time?
She may have had morningrituals.
Heather Drake (05:26):
but the very fact that she said how can this be?
Leads me to believe that maybethe French press hadn't all the
way brewed, like, maybe she wasin the middle of that, but it
had not yet been four minutes,so she couldn't wrap her mind
around.
How can this be?
The messenger comes to her andsays, hey, god wants to do this
and wants to know if you want inon it.
And then she thinks about thedetails.
(05:48):
Okay, how can this be?
And so I think that morningcoffee also brings me a little
clarity on how can this be, andso?
Shelly Shepherd (05:59):
maybe she hadn't had her coffee yet.
Yeah, we talk about theseordinary.
You know, these moments of joyhappen in the ordinary and for
some people that's coffee, forme it's kombucha, for you it's
definitely French press coffee,right, but there's joy in that
moment that might have nothingto do with the Christmas story
(06:22):
nothing to do with the Christmasstory and yet if you compound
that joy over time, over manycups of coffee, over many
glasses of kombucha, you get toa place of wow.
I want more of that kind of joy.
I want joy when I'm walking onthe path.
(06:43):
I want joy when I'm riding mybike.
I want joy when I'm serving inoutreach.
I want joy when I'm talking toa friend or visiting a neighbor
or at the hospital with somebodythat is not going to make it to
(07:03):
spill from the ordinary intothe extraordinary.
And I wonder if Mary, in thatordinary moment of her waking
that morning and this angelicpresence appears, had she
already prepared.
You say she was hesitant.
The text says why me?
Heather Drake (07:24):
Yeah, I don't know that she was hesitant, but
she certainly asked questionsand I commend her for that, as
we all should.
What is it going to look likefor me to abandon ways of
thinking that don't allow theshalom of God to be between me
and my neighbor?
What is it going to look like?
(07:46):
And I'm sure Mary was capableof saying I think this is
important, you and I have talkedabout it, but the invitation
here is to consent.
The spirit is up to something.
The spirit that hovered atcreation over the chaos is once
again going to hover over thisfeminine body and create
something that is not onlyrevolutionary but is for the
(08:10):
saving of the whole world.
And so the invitation is do youwant to co-create with us?
And I think that's what Jesuskept extending to us this
invitation Will you allow thekingdom to be born in you?
Will you allow the kingdom tobe in the middle of you?
Will you allow the reign ofGod's kingdom here among you?
(08:32):
And she went from how can thisbe?
And her next response was okay,let it be.
Let it be unto me, according toyour and I love very much how
the awe of seeing an angelicbeing offering to her an
invitation of co-creating wasn'ttoo extravagant.
(08:55):
She got what she needed, as faras you know.
I don't know if she got details, but she had reassurance, and
maybe the reassurance came fromthe fact that she already knew
the Psalms and she knew thatthere was a promise of a Messiah
coming and she could lean backon the things that she had heard
before.
But there, certainly, untilthis point, we are at a unique
(09:16):
place in history where we get tosay we get to look back on the
story and so we know the end.
Shelly Shepherd (09:21):
But she just saw the right thing, and so that
took so much hope and so muchcourage and so much intention to
say be it unto me, according toyour word certainly as a brown
(09:45):
refugee female was standing in apeculiar place, certainly
vulnerable, yes, very vulnerable, and I believe the divinity
that was present in thatconversation to come to a woman
(10:12):
with this invitation that wouldsomehow make it even into our
lives is pretty phenomenal.
It's pretty phenomenal to methat God, that Yahweh, that
(10:33):
Spirit, took on this form tobring life, to bring joy, to
bring peace, to bring hope, tobring love into the world.
And yet it seems like it getsharder and harder to understand
(10:55):
that point of the story or toget people to believe or to even
grapple with.
Is this possible?
Could this have even reallyhappened?
Is this some kind of myth orsomebody's story that was made
(11:16):
up in ancient ancestors andhanded down?
Heather Drake (11:20):
Yeah, but stories are so powerful and Jesus is
the master of the metaphorhimself and he is the living
word, the word made flesh, andso I prickle at the idea of
somebody saying it's just astory.
Stories are how we understandthe world, but you've heard
people say that.
Shelly Shepherd (11:39):
You've heard people say this is just a story.
Heather Drake (11:41):
Yes, yes, yes right, but there's always a
deeper magic still, to quote CSLewis, like there's so much more
, even under the story.
But the stories are how we makesense of our world, and so to
have a story that has beengifted to us and saying this is
what it looks like when thisyoung woman says how can this be
(12:03):
?
And then moves into let it be.
And then this is the prayerthat she prays, and then we're
gifted some other words that sheprays, the Magnificat, and then
we're so many times we'relistening to her, and then we
hear a repetition in Jesus'swords where he is in a place of
(12:24):
vulnerability and he says let itbe unto me.
According to your word Soundslike not my will but yours be
done.
When Jesus says this is my bodybroken for you that it was
first Mary whose body was broken.
That's right To bring the worldthe incarnate of Christ here.
(12:46):
And so her body broken, notonly in childbirth, but broken
as she continues to feed him, asshe nurses him, as she goes
through recovery of having thisbaby.
There is so much brokennessthat happens in a woman's life
and in allowing the Christ.
(13:08):
So to me it's very hopeful whenI see broken places.
There's that beautiful lyric byLeonard Cohen this is how the
light gets in, and so in women'slives I have such hope.
The same thing when I see chaosand I'm like, oh, spirit, come
and hover here because, look,we've made a giant mess.
You can come here and empowerus to live differently, to see
(13:31):
differently, to change our wayof thinking, to invite the
Christ to be formed in us.
This is the hope of the worldthat light and love would always
be seen in us, that we would bethe hands and feet.
There's the ancients who talkabout Christ has no body here
now, except for yours, you arethe body of Christ.
(13:54):
And so I hear the song of Maryand I hear the prayers of Mary,
and they inspire me in a way offollowing.
What does it look like for meto say I'm going to give up this
way of thinking, I'm going togive up this plan, I'm going to
give up this, whatever it is,because there's a bigger picture
(14:15):
?
Shelly Shepherd (14:17):
Are we asking that same question of ourselves
every Advent, every Christmas,every season of the church?
Are we asking ourselves abouthow that surrender looks like If
she was the first person tosurrender to the incarnation?
(14:41):
Meaning I am going to bring,I'm going to humble myself, I'm
going to surrender, I'm going toaccept this, I consent to this.
Is that part of our posture?
And have we forgotten how?
Heather Drake (14:56):
And if we've forgotten how.
If that is the case, then wecan look to Mary, and this is
the beautiful invitation.
I love that right after thishappens, the next thing that we
hear is that she goes to seeElizabeth and she goes to see
another woman and sort this out.
Let me tell you what justhappened to me.
(15:17):
Let me tell you what I think, Isaw, what I think I heard, and
in the presence of another woman.
There is this confirmation, andso I love that this story is
woven together between the youngand the old, between women,
between this hope for a worldthat is clearly in need of
(15:42):
changing, in need of the miracle, is clearly in need of changing
, in need of the miracle, and Ifind that that feels like it's
very replicated here.
Our world is in need of amiracle, our world is in need of
a healer, and Mary showed usthe path in bringing Jesus, the
healer before, and so theinvitation is for us to prepare
(16:02):
ourselves.
What would it look like for youto prepare your mind?
That love would come and beformed in you, would be born in
you, would be expressed throughyou in such a way that all of
the goodness that God means forpeople to hear and to see would
be something that they wouldwitness in just being in our
(16:23):
presence.
That's exciting to me.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
we are that you've joined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
(16:43):
expansionistheologycom.
Shelly Shepherd (16:46):
Yes, and a beautiful hope as well.
I wonder about the strugglewith empire that Mary and
Elizabeth I'm going to sit withthat for a second In their
conversation, as she enteredElizabeth's home and stayed
(17:09):
there for a while with Elizabethand she was also pregnant with
John the Baptist, knowing thatthey were in a situation where
(17:34):
things were being controlled byempire, what was going through
their minds, particularly aswomen in this situation?
I just find myself fascinatedin my holy imagination to think
about the conversation that theywere having.
And then, lo and behold, theempire tries to kill.
(17:57):
As soon as Jesus comes on thescene, here comes the empire
after the firstborn and thenthey flee to Egypt.
But the marginalization of thiswhole context, like what part
(18:18):
of that can you and I identifywith today in this story?
Heather Drake (18:24):
Well, I love that when she goes to see Elizabeth,
elizabeth greets her loudly andsays the mother of my Lord.
So something in Elizabethidentified the Christ that is
being formed in Mary, andElizabeth is the first one to
acknowledge that Lordship, thatChrist.
Okay, this is going to be theone that I follow so clearly,
(18:47):
this really deep connectionElizabeth has with the Spirit
certainly has with her familyhere, but with this other woman
and then before then, yourquestion was what was their
interaction or what was theirexperience regarding empire?
And I think that in the Song ofMary, where she begins to say
(19:13):
listen, the people that arewealthy, they're going to be
turned away and they're going tohave need, and the people that
are powerful and are sitting onthrones, they're going to be
brought low and the people thathave no voice are going to have
a place to speak.
And the words of this are soprovocative that men in power
they were talking about theirown context, right?
Shelly Shepherd (19:35):
They were talking about their own context.
Heather Drake (19:36):
Yes, yes, yes.
Men in power have said do notread this out loud, do not let
people hear what this young girlallowed love Christ.
Hear what this young girlallowed love Christ, holiness,
newness, god incarnate to bebirthed in her.
And then she began to saythings like hey, the way that
things are, they're going to beturned upside down.
This is not the status quo, isnot status quo for the kingdom.
(19:59):
The kingdom is coming, and nowlove is the great equalizer and
things are going to be different, and so the invitation to us is
that same thing.
What does it look like to allowlove to be the great equalizer?
Where love comes, love saves usand love shows us there's a new
(20:19):
way to live, and it's notthrough empire, it's not
trusting in systems thatcontinue to oppress people, but
in the work of spirit who'sinviting us to live in a whole
other realm, a whole other wayit's definitely a story about
(20:47):
the oppressed and oppression.
Shelly Shepherd (20:47):
But yet on the other side of that coin is this
triumphant uh.
Exclamation of here I am, I'mready, I surrender, I consent, I
accept.
You know, here we go, knowingthat.
You know, here we go, knowingthat the male population was
(21:13):
probably going to look at thissituation a little bit
differently than Mary andElizabeth were seeing it.
And then the story unfoldsbiblically, from the perspective
of.
You know, most of the Bible havebeen written by men, you know,
for men and by men.
Here is this insertion of thefeminine that I don't ever want
(21:40):
to forget.
I don't ever want to lose thismoment in history where Yahweh,
where God, says I am going tocome through this woman, I am
going to start my divinity righthere with her.
And, yes, it's going toconfound everybody coming and
(22:04):
going and there's going to bethings written that are not true
about her, about him.
But here we go.
I don't want to forget thatpart of this story.
I always want that to be thepart of Advent and Christmas
that is intrinsically part of me, intrinsically part of me, and
(22:31):
I think that's where thefeminine spirit of God is such a
powerful force in the world andin my life that, wow, I just, I
can't see it any other way.
Heather Drake (22:43):
One of the paths that Mary took was the path that
led her from awe into worship.
Shelly Shepherd (22:52):
Hmm.
Heather Drake (22:54):
And I wonder if, for many of us, the awe has gone
out of the things that wepractice, or the things that we
allow ourselves to savor, or thethings that we look for and
looking for, those moments ofwonder, those moments of?
Is it possible that the spiritis up to something completely
(23:17):
different here?
Is it possible that what I'mseeing with my natural eyes is
not all that is happening here?
That's right and how can I getin on what God is doing here?
How?
Shelly Shepherd (23:30):
can I?
Heather Drake (23:30):
get in on this revolution that love is planning
.
What do I do to be a part ofthat?
My own personal surrender, myown personal invitation, Because
in my surrender, in my freedom,it allows other people to be
free.
And so I'm not saying that thisis my personal Jesus, come only
(23:50):
to save me.
Certainly that is not the paththat Mary showed us.
This is her body breaking forall of us.
This sounds very much like thewords of Jesus that said this is
my body broken for you.
Take it and eat, Pass it outamong you.
All of you eat this.
All of you become this way ofliving, where from awe we move
into wonder and worship, whereit becomes this enchantment of.
(24:13):
There is something else at workhere.
Shelly Shepherd (24:20):
And to me that's the feminine perspective,
heather, is when we try to makethis passageway of Emmanuel
with us a theological posturing,a doctrine, a dogma.
A theological posturing, adoctrine, a dogma, something
(24:44):
that has come to save us andsave us only for me, it misses
the point.
It misses the point of that.
The feminine perspective, thefeminine presence, really has to
be experienced in a differentkind of way than oh, my goodness
(25:05):
, than we've been experiencingit pretty much our entire lives,
through an angry God or througha God that people say, that God
hates people or we don't wantthose folks in our country, kind
of conversations Like it takes.
(25:25):
The feminine to me, in myexperience, is that it is this
open, inclusive.
I give my consent to spirit, Isurrender to this and I am
bringing the feminine side ofGod into the world through my
(25:46):
own vessel.
And so I have friends who donot see themselves as sacred,
beloved, holy, anything, and Itry to remind them that they are
.
(26:07):
And it started with Mary.
This is our story.
Mary's story is our story.
It's the feminine story.
It's how light breaks in, it'show love finds us, and so, yeah,
perhaps maybe we've lost theawe and the wonder that leads to
that kind of praise and thatkind of experience.
(26:29):
But oh my goodness, if we couldfind that, if we could
understand that this is where weare, where we could be, oh my
goodness.
Heather Drake (26:42):
One of the things that strikes me in this story
is the idea, not necessarily ofknowing, but of being.
Mary didn't know a lot of thedetails, but she was willing to
be inconvenienced by the Spirit,or she was to be impassioned,
(27:11):
emboldened, and also in thisidea, this indwelling of God,
and this is the promise for us,this is how it so relates to us
that what is it like for us toembody shalom?
What does it look like for usto embody?
And when you speak of thefeminine, I'm sure that people
have experienced many forms offeminine, I'm sure that people
(27:35):
have experienced many forms offeminine, but when you and I are
discussing it in this matter, Iremind you that it looks like
the spirit.
It is gentle, the spirit islong-suffering, the spirit is
(27:56):
kind, the spirit is loving, thespirit is all of those things do
not sound like what thetestimony of these women that
actually lived through it, orwhat the Second Testament tells
us the Spirit is like.
(28:21):
I think that it's essential forus to be very mindful of the God
that we have created in our ownimage.
Yes, we sometimes have a Godwho is vengeful or angry or is
coming for our enemies, but wehave a God who's sitting
everyone down at the table andsaying everybody gets to come
and eat.
You prepare a table before mein the presence of my enemies.
And Mary is this beautifulinvitation into a following of
(28:44):
Christ?
What is it like for her to beup at night with a sick toddler?
This inconvenience?
What is it up at night?
And then we began talking lastnight about when she's at the
wedding of Cana and sherecognizes we don't have what we
need.
And somehow she knows thebigger story, that there is
(29:05):
enough, that there is noscarcity, that the scarcity that
they're actually experiencingis not the reality.
And so she asks Jesus to dosomething about it.
Right, and I wonder does sheask him to do something about it
?
Because she just has this deepknowing?
Or perhaps has she witnessedthe way that abundance comes to
(29:28):
him?
And so she asks and I love inthat asking can you do something
for us?
Would you do this?
She doesn't say can, I don'tthink.
I don't think the language isthe same thing.
Would you fix this?
Would you do this?
She doesn't say can, I don'tthink.
I don't think the language isthe same thing.
Would you fix this?
Would you make this right?
And then her, leaning toward theother people that are there
present and says do whatever hetells you to do.
(29:50):
That, I think, is the path ofMary.
When you've heard the voice,when you've heard the voice
above the noise, when you haveidentified it being spirit, will
you do what the spirit tellsyou to do, whatever Jesus tells
you to do.
Do that, because maybe it's notthe same every time.
Maybe she had seen differentkind of miracles or different
(30:11):
kind of abundance or a differentkind of seeing.
Maybe she had so muchconfidence that, whatever it is
that he tells you, follow that,because that's where you're
going to find the reward, that'swhere you're going to find the
answer.
Shelly Shepherd (30:27):
Yeah, it's a beautiful tapestry that has been
handed down and protected, evenin its form that we have it now
.
It's just a beautiful story,particularly about the women,
Elizabeth and Mary, and whatthey give us in this season and
(30:52):
in this time, but also what theyteach us in our rituals and how
we show up and how we surrenderand how we continue to find the
path of resistance against theempire.
Perhaps.
Heather Drake (31:09):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
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