September 14, 2024 • 50 mins
Discover the profound lessons of faith and leadership with the insightful Laurie Beth Jones, celebrated author of "Jesus CEO," "The Path," and "Jesus in Blue Jeans." Join us as we explore Laurie Beth's innovative perspectives on Jesus, moving beyond traditional portrayals to uncover his compassionate and revolutionary nature. Through an engaging conversation, we delve into the themes of her book "Jesus in Blue Jeans," emphasizing the significance of small actions and Jesus as a liberator who championed freedom and kindness. Laurie Beth's reflections offer a unique lens on how we can incorporate Jesus's wisdom into our daily lives.
Uncover the essence of a deep spiritual connection and the transformative power of viewing the Bible as a love story. We share personal stories of experiencing Jesus in intimate, everyday settings and reflect on how these moments free us from societal expectations and judgments. Our discussion also touches on the commitment and journey of bringing "Jesus in Blue Jeans" to life, illustrating the importance of living a faith-driven life and diving into one's personal truths.
Consider the mystical and therapeutic connections between humans and animals as we explore divine communication through uncommon paths. From racehorses to pets, animals bring comfort and healing into our lives, reminding us of the omnipresent divine love. In our final chapter, we celebrate themes of gratitude and theological expansion, encouraging listeners to embody wisdom and love in their own journeys.
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Episode Transcript
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Heather Drake (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Hello, shelley, it is myabsolute joy to be with you
(00:22):
today podcasting because we havesuch a special guest.
Shelly Shepherd (00:26):
Yes, we do Lori .
Heather Drake (00:27):
Beth Jones is here and I am so excited that we
get to be in the presence andto be able to access the wisdom
and ask questions, but reallyjust to have a really powerful
conversation with Lori Beth andwith you, and I'm just thrilled.
I've been hardly able to sleepthinking about all the questions
that I want to ask.
(00:48):
So again, you promised this maynot be the last interview, so
I'm looking forward to a part Balready, but help me tell all
the wonderful things that LoriBeth is and has done.
Shelly Shepherd (01:01):
Yes, and thank you.
Thank you for that introductionis and has done.
Yes, and thank you.
Thank you for that introduction, heather.
It is great to be here in thisstudio space with you and Lori
Beth.
Lori Beth, welcome to this show, this podcast of the
Expansionist Podcast.
It's a delight to have you inthis space with us and I, too,
am very excited about not justthis moment but the years that
(01:26):
your work has had, the impact ithas had on so many people, and
Heather and I were talking inthe pre-show how we're not sure
how many people know the nameLori Beth Jones, but we thought
let's start changing that, let'sget Lori Beth Jones out there,
and so people can read theseamazing books and and understand
(01:46):
this philosophy that you bringum to the world.
Really, so thank you for yourpresence here with us today.
Laurie Beth Jones (01:53):
It's great to have you I'm thrilled to be on
your show.
I listen to your podcast.
You all bring fresh light andlife and your thoughtful
dialogue is so needed todayaround the concept of love and
wisdom and joy.
So I'm an honored guest,honored to be here.
Shelly Shepherd (02:13):
Excellent.
So do you want to kick off withone of your questions, Heather,
or would you like me to dive in?
Heather Drake (02:19):
Well, yeah, and I want to tell because maybe the
listeners don't know Lori Bethyet, but I think that they
should.
I often prescribe Lori Beth yet, but I think that they should.
I often prescribe Lori Beth'sbooks, and there are, they might
know her works right, theymight know her works right, they
might not always know the name,but yes, I wonder if maybe a
much younger crowd maybe doesn't, or people have and I'm sure
(02:40):
there's, because there are somany books many people probably
have, but in the maybe in thecommunity that we're speaking to
, a lot they may not be aswidely known, and so it has been
such a source of joy and ofexpansion for me personally and
for my husband and for thelittle family that we were
(03:02):
growing, because we startedreading Lori Beth's book in 1987
.
97, sorry, I was graduatinghigh school in 87.
But in 97, I got Jesus CEO andthe Path and Jesus in Blue Jeans
.
I think Jesus in Blue Jeans wasfirst for me, but those three
books were so impactful inshaping of the way that I was
(03:28):
given permission, I think, bythe books, to see Jesus outside
of the gospels of Matthew, mark,Luke and John, and then what
that permission did for my life,to be able to say there is a
personal invitation to a wisdomthat is applicable for me right
now.
And so I was mentioning earliertoo that there's one of the
(03:51):
things that you mentioned inJesus CEO and you talk a lot
about incredible, brilliantthings, but that he troubled
himself on behalf of others.
That was so huge for us to beable to see that about Jesus.
That was so huge for us to beable to see that about Jesus.
And then there's another onethat was talking about he didn't
dismiss the small things, andthat was so important to me as a
(04:13):
mom of tiny people, when itseemed like everybody else was
doing great things.
And then there were these tinythings that needed to be cared
for, that needed to be done, andit just became such an
expansion of my understanding ofeverything is sacred the tiny
people that I could talk aboutsome of those and that I
wouldn't ramble, because I couldread the whole book to people
(04:49):
and then that could be a wholepodcast, or maybe you could just
like read them.
But can we talk for a minuteabout Jesus in blue jeans?
And one of the things that wasso impactful to me is when you
started talking about Jesus andsharing revelation that you had
from Christ.
Not only did it give mepermission as a pastor and as a
(05:10):
person who was leading otherpeople into discipleship, but
you presented wisdoms that I hadnot seen before, and when I
used the lens of what you showedme, I was able to see things
myself so much differently andso much more intentionally and
lovingly.
And so can you talk to us alittle bit about the Jesus in
(05:33):
blue jeans?
I'll, I'll.
It's an entire book, but can I?
Can I put a quarter in you?
Can I put a quarter in you forthe one that you talked about?
where you said he thrust hishand through the door.
Laurie Beth Jones (05:47):
Oh yeah, that is a powerful one and it's from
the Song of Solomon, thereference.
But so often, well, I thinkthere's kind of two schools of
thought on Jesus broadly.
One is he's the militant angry,throw him into hell for those
that don't look like us, actlike us, believe like us.
And then there's the verycompassionate, the good shepherd
(06:10):
, the kind, and so the challengewith those two are sometimes he
was passionate and he was not adoormat and you know, I grew up
seeing the picture of himholding a lantern, knocking on
the door, you know with theshepherd's robe and knocking
gently on the door and waitingand behold, I stand at the door
(06:33):
and knock.
Also, the concept of truth thatrelates to when he said to
Lazarus the people standingaround Lazarus unbind him and
set him free Because the corevalue I think that he had was
(06:54):
freedom.
A core value was freedom andthe notion of seeing someone
bound up or seeing somethinghappening on the other side of a
door that you know is wrong andjust saying, well, let the
elders take care of it or, oh,you know, it'll all be solved in
the sweet by and by.
(07:15):
That is not the nature of Jesus.
In blue jeans, I mean thrustinghis hand through the door and
also into our hearts.
You know that that concept of Iwill not let you go uh, ann
lamont talks about that, how hepursued her for so long.
Finally, she said a cuss wordand said, okay, come on in.
(07:35):
You know, yeah, um, so thatthat reference is to me so
powerful that there is a timewhen niceties and protocol and
rules and all those other things, he will go through that to
(07:57):
grab what's essential, and somust we.
Heather Drake (08:00):
Yeah, one of the things that I gleaned from that.
So you wrote that chapter.
He thrust his hand through thedoor and what happened for me
was I felt like I saw a Jesusthat was different than I had
ever been told about, and thatpassion to be able to say I will
come and get you.
(08:21):
Because in the verses previousto that, the woman is saying I'm
not, my hair is washed and myfeet are clean.
I can't get out of the bed.
And so many people findthemselves in a place where they
can't go any further.
They can't, I mean, they'vedone what they know to do.
And Jesus seems far away fromthat.
And the beauty of thatinvitation that says will you
(08:42):
let him thrust his hand to thedoor and come in himself, that
became such a beautiful,especially to people who have
been traumatized or who are inrelationships that make them
feel, you know, with church andwith other things, that it's
just too difficult to keeptrying that.
Can we open ourselves, consentto the loving spirit of God who
(09:04):
will say I'll come and get you.
It's okay, hold on, I'm comingfor you, right?
It doesn't have to be such hardwork to follow Jesus.
It doesn't have to be now getyour hair done and your boots on
, and now we're all marching toonward.
Christian soldiers, I mean,sometimes you can lay in your
bed and wait for love to come toyou.
Laurie Beth Jones (09:20):
Yes, yes, there is that, there is that.
Shelly Shepherd (09:24):
I had a similar notation to talk about, which
also had to do with knocking,and I think it might have been
(09:50):
in yeah, it's in Teach your Teento Fish, your book Teach your
Teen to Fish, which I think wasaround 2000, I don't know, 2002,
or sometime 2002 or 2003,.
That book came out.
Um, but you, you made a pointto um, you, you start the book.
I mean, you start that chapter.
Um, he went deep in order to gowide.
So it's almost like reachingthrough the door.
He's going, he's going deeper,wide for someone.
Right, you start that particularchapter with a Rumi quote which
(10:10):
I want to give to you.
Here it's you must always carryan unsolvable problem in your
heart, and that's a Rumi quote.
Right, that's how you start thechapter.
But then, as you get into this,you remind us that we no longer
need to stand at the door andknock.
We now dwell in the castle, andI don't know why.
(10:34):
It was just this beautifulimagery, almost like the door
reaching through.
Right, I'm going to come foryou.
I'm going to come and get youfor you, I'm going to come and
get you.
But here in this book, you'relike inspiring me particular,
and us who have read this book.
Wow, we are, we're, we'redwelling in this castle.
(10:54):
You know we're no longer, youknow, maybe thinking that we
need to bust the door down youknow uh you know to to get in,
um, but I've often heard yourefer to or speak about going
deep and going wide Like.
This is a philosophy that youhave, not just in your writing,
but also with people.
Right, you'd rather do aone-on-one than get in front of
(11:18):
an audience of 6,000.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat.
That deep you know.
Going deep to go wide, whatdoes that actually mean for you?
Laurie Beth Jones (11:27):
Well, you know Jesus spoke to Mary
Magdalene at the well right.
Wasn't she the woman at thewell, or was it?
You all are experts in that,but forgive my ignorance on that
.
Shelly Shepherd (11:38):
That's debatable.
Debatable, okay, but anyway,that's debatable, all right.
Laurie Beth Jones (11:42):
So let's use that imagery of him waiting by a
well and the woman.
You go deep to draw water fromthe well.
And I think in our culture,with all the distractions and
all of the the noise around us,it is very hard to go deep,
particularly when the emphasisis how many followers do you
have, how many?
(12:02):
How many TikTok followers doyou have?
How many hits did you get Allof this stuff?
And you see these people,sometimes these influencers,
with millions of followers, andthey jump off a building.
You know, because that is notthe answer.
The answer is, if you have, likethe image of the cross, is god
(12:24):
and jesus connected, youconnected to god?
And then your arms outstretchedto other people, but you only
have two hands.
So it's almost to me, I wouldrather have three deep friends
than three thousand who click onme and then go to the next
person to click on right.
So going deep is it's also inourselves right If you can
(12:47):
connect with something thatmeans so much to you.
And I know that you as a pastor, heather and Shelly, you also
as a pastor, and having beendoing this work around ministry
and theology for most of youradult life, you are constantly
winnowing down what is theessence, right?
(13:08):
I mean, what are the filtersthat you use?
Heather, you mentioned you andDennis saying you know that
mantra we trouble ourselves onother people's behalf when it
comes to decision time.
You make a decision based onthat one thing, right.
So going deep means what doesthis matter ultimately between
(13:29):
me and God, and the impact tothe world doesn't really matter
as much, and I think we worrytoo much about what other people
think.
This was so freeing to me.
Let me tell you in writing whenI realized, and having come from
an abusive marriage where thiswhole system was telling me what
(13:51):
I could say, what I could wear,what I could not do, and all
that, and when I realized that Ionly had one person to answer
to and that was Jesus, and Ihave lived my life consciously
making it that way, trying toremember that there's one
relationship, one person, that Ineed to sit down and say how
(14:14):
did I do today, how was today?
And I don't even thatconversation of how did I do
that implies a judgment of youknow, how did you do on the
Christian score or any of thosethings.
Now, it's kind of like justsitting and looking outside and
watching the dog walkers go byIsn't that the cutest little
French bulldog you ever saw?
(14:35):
And then just feeling thepresence of just his laughter or
something like that.
So I'm kind of rambling here.
But the sense of depth, ofconnection and, Heather, I was
thinking about you with TinyPeople when I was writing Jesus,
ceo, having cut away myadvertising agency and my
(14:57):
marriage and all those otherthings, and I went out to the
desert to write and I actuallyfelt like I was nursing a child
desert to write and I actuallyfelt like I was nursing a child
that I imagine I've never donethat, but that flow of there's
nothing in the world moreimportant than this connection
me and the words, me and thattrailer in the desert that was
(15:20):
going deep.
I had no idea it would go wideand so if you start out thinking
you're going to go wide, you'reprobably not going to go deep.
But if you go deep and go asdeep as you can to who you are
and what the truth is of yourmeaning in this world, it may go
wide.
It may not go wide, you don'tknow, but it won't matter
(15:41):
because you will have connected,you will have pulled up the
living water from the well ofyour own being and you'll never
be thirsty again.
Heather Drake (15:58):
Do you have a single memory, or a few memories
that connect to you, of how youcame to be aware of the
presence of Jesus in your life?
Because the way that you talkabout Jesus, I've been to Sunday
school for a really long time.
I've been to lots of them.
I've been to church.
I've been I mean it was I'vegot a lot of church and nobody
other than Lori Beth Jones toldme that Jesus was wearing blue
(16:18):
jeans and that he was ready totalk to me now and live my life
with me.
And so how does a person or howdid you, I mean again, and then
your living it gave mepermission to experience life
with the presence of Jesus everyday, not the Jesus in a robe
(16:40):
that lives in Galilee by theseashore, but a very real Jesus,
present, love, present rightnow.
Laurie Beth Jones (16:47):
Right, exactly, exactly, well, when I
began, when I gave my life toJesus consciously, and I've
always seen the Bible not always, but the theme.
It's a love story, right, ifyou take it, it's a love story
between our understanding of thedivine and who we are.
(17:08):
And so if you love somebody,you want to learn everything
about them, right?
So I'm reading all these things, every love letter, every
circling the words, like it wasa valentine to me.
You know that it was not onlyjust out there, but this was a
love story, a love note to me.
And so one day I was out takingmy horse in the field and I was,
(17:33):
and I would write while thehorse would graze beside me and
I had two dogs and it was in ameadow I mean, just beautiful
scene.
And I saw this man in the field, across the field.
It was maybe, I don't know, 40feet away, 30 feet away, and I
looked up.
I was startled because I was inthe forest and I got closer and
(17:55):
it was Jesus wearing blue jeans, as clear as if you know,
someone had walked out of thewoods and I just looked at him
and said why are you wearingblue jeans?
And he said well, I wore a robebecause they wore a robe and
I'm wearing blue jeans becauseyou're wearing blue jeans.
And the moment of just the twoof us with the horse and the
(18:18):
dogs and maybe the deer in thedistance, it was like, oh, I
want this feeling all the timeand the sense was, well, you
have it, you can have it becauseI'm here.
And I said I will someday writea book called Jesus in Blue
Jeans, and I was 19 years old atthe time and that didn't happen
(18:38):
until I was 43.
But so that's kind of my.
That was my vow, my pledge vowthat I had to do the first two
books first.
But I said I'm going to do this.
And so when I got the publishedcopy, I lifted it up and I said
here's my offering.
(18:59):
I did it you know I closed thecircle.
Heather Drake (19:02):
Oh, that's so beautiful, that's so beautiful.
Laurie Beth Jones (19:04):
Thank you.
Heather Drake (19:05):
I don't know how many books you've actually
written.
Do you know that number?
Do you keep count Fifteen?
But those are published books.
Shelly Shepherd (19:12):
You probably have other books that are not
published.
Heather Drake (19:21):
Yes, yes, that I have kind of lived by.
They've kind of shaped my faithand the way that I have.
Again, you've given me somelenses to do that.
One of them, the Jesus in bluejeans, the Jesus CEO.
Ancient wisdom that was sorevolutionary for me, and just
recognizing that a wisdom wasnot just something to be learned
(19:42):
but something to be lived by.
That was so incredible for meand then became something that
was a bedrock.
Now, many of the things thatyou talked about in that book,
as far as the same scriptures,were scriptures that I had been
taught and been reading foryears, but you offered them in
such a way that they wereillumined, almost like a prism
(20:05):
in me, to show me things that Iactually knew but didn't even
know that I knew.
And when I would read thosethings I would be like, yes,
that is what I know.
That is the words around what.
I know to be true, and that wasso incredible.
Also the path, just remarkablethat there's so many things in
it that were so beautiful.
And in fact, dennis and Ipastor a church and the reason
(20:27):
that we feel like we were ableto even pull this out of the
ground a church that we launchedwas because we took the path.
And I wanted to talk a minuteabout that because I know there
are a lot of people with reallybig dreams and really wonderful
things they want to do for theworld.
But the idea of how do I takewhat's in my person or in my
(20:50):
thought and actually live inthat thought?
And I think the path is.
I mean, people laugh all thetime at us.
They're like, well, what shouldwe do after we do that book?
I'm like nothing, becauseyou'll be doing it.
So that is the path.
Just walk it, just walk thepath, walk it, just walk the
path.
But there's so much justincredible goodness in there.
Talk to me a little bit aboutwho you think could benefit from
(21:15):
the path.
Laurie Beth Jones (21:21):
The path is like a harness.
Getting your mission statementand being able to say it in a
single sentence is both aharness and a sword.
It harnesses you into the workthat you feel called to do and
it cuts away everything that isfalse.
So learning where and when andhow to say no is vital to an
intentional life.
If you just say yes toeverything, you're going to turn
into a swamp, a stagnant swamp,and that's not going to support
(21:43):
any kind of living water rightin that swamp and that's not
going to support any kind ofliving water right.
So being able to say no, but inorder to do that, you have to
be clear.
What did I come here to do?
And I believe that each of usare born with a calling within
us and, as we've done the pathwith kids as young as five, they
have a sense of what they wantto do in the world, and I'm not
(22:06):
talking oh, I want to be aballerina or a fireman or
something like that.
I mean, when you get to it,there's an innate sense of
justice, or there's an innatesense of making people feel
welcome or having a callingabout it.
And, as we've done the pathwith first offenders and prison
systems 16 and 17-year-olds.
First offenders and prisonsystems 16 and 17 year olds.
Shelly Shepherd (22:33):
It's, the questions in the path are
literally a recipe for life.
I was going to ask you to shareyour mission statement because
a little bit ago you used theword connection.
Divine connection is really howthe path you know unfurled for
you was getting clear about yourown mission statement.
So so maybe share that and anda little bit of your story about
how you, you change from divineexcellence to divine connection
(22:56):
.
And and now that you got clear,when you got clear about it
being divine connection ascompared to divine excellence,
that this whole you know arrayof understanding that has been
given to all of us that haveread your work has also helped
shaped us.
Your divine connection hashelped to shape you.
Living your mission has helpedmany people shape their own
(23:18):
connection as well, yes, thankyou, shelley.
Laurie Beth Jones (23:20):
That's.
That's the going deep in orderto go wide.
And this is something that Ithought about as I thought about
this podcast.
I wanted to stress if you, ifand when you are living your
mission, you may or may not knowit's going to go wide, but you
will feel that sense ofconnection no matter where you
are or what you're doing.
So my mission is to recognize,promote and inspire divine
(23:45):
connection in myself and others.
So it's three verbs, a corevalue and the tribe, which is
myself and others, and it wasdivine excellence.
And my mentor, catherine,challenged me and she said what
is excellence?
Oh, you know, it's likesomething really good.
Well, who defines it?
You know, but really so, if youlook at it, I want to.
(24:10):
No matter how people encounterme or my work, did I help them
plug in to the divine?
Something I said gave them anew lens, like you said, heather
, for how to see Jesus and thepresence in this world.
(24:30):
That's what I want to be about,and it's not about being liked
or being the most popular orbeing the most anything else.
If I can help people connectinto the, it's like you know,
reboot your machine, or, if youdon't plug it in.
If you plug it in, the powercomes on.
If the people aren't plugged in, it doesn't matter how much you
(24:51):
preach to them, because they'renot connected and that's what
they need to do.
It's an individual connectionof getting connected to the
divine.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, shelley, but it
is the deep going deep to gowide.
Heather Drake (25:05):
We want to pause and take a moment and let you
know how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
Laurie Beth Jones (25:25):
I give the example of.
I had the privilege, as thebook became a bestseller and all
those things of preaching andteaching and talking and praying
with generals in the Pentagonand prisoners women prisoners in
Colorado and nuns in NewOrleans and CEOs in Cincinnati.
I mean it was just a huge thing.
But one time I was called tospeak in December in New York
(25:50):
and it was the combined meetingof the ATF and the United Postal
Service and this was not ahappy crowd and this was not a
happy time and it was rainingand it was cold and I spoke.
My all of my jokes fell flatand my exercise of now lean over
(26:10):
to your neighbor and tell themwhat was your parents unlived
life, and I mean those peoplesit ramrod straight and I it was
the longest two and a halfhours I have ever a seminar.
And then I started thinking amI right now doing my very best
(26:30):
to recognize, promote andinspire divine connection in
myself and others?
Am I doing that?
Yes, then this is where I needto be.
I could have been home by theChristmas tree with hot
chocolate and my nieces andnephews, but no, no, I'm in New
York speaking to a, you know,just a flat-faced crowd.
And then I knew that you knowlike, nobody bought books and I
(26:54):
packed it up and I just thought,okay, that was done.
A week later we got a letter, ananonymous letter, and it said
regarding your talk, december,it was like the 22nd or
something like that, december22nd I heard you unsigned.
So could I have been sent toNew York City in the middle of
December in a snowstorm to reachone person out of the 60 that
(27:19):
were there?
Yes, yes.
So that's the knowing.
I'm getting goosebumps thinkingabout it.
It doesn't matter what it lookslike externally, whether it's a
crowd of, how big your crowd is, it doesn't matter.
That's not the issue.
When Jesus was on the cross, hehad a crowd of how many?
Three, four Mm.
(27:41):
Hmm, it's not the crowd size,that is about connection, it's
going deep, as deep as eternity.
And this life, I believe, isreally, you know, I don't want
to say a sideshow, but it's noteverything, it's not all of it.
I was joking with some friendsof mine and they were talking
(28:02):
about where they're going to beburied and all this and I said
oh, so that's your preparation H?
They said preparation H.
I said so, that's yourpreparation age.
He said preparation age.
I said that's your preparationfor heaven.
Everybody gets so sad thinkingabout wheels and coffins and all
this other stuff and it's, youknow it's.
The veil will be lifted andright now we're sort of in a
cloud, but not alone never alone, thank you.
Shelly Shepherd (28:25):
Thank you for living your mission Wow.
Heather Drake (28:30):
Yes, those of us who are living in a world kind
of that you created by allowingus to create worlds that are
deeply meaningful andintentional and I think very
deep and that's a reallybeautiful thing.
You were talking aboutconnection with God and the idea
(28:51):
of an intimate connection, notjust broadband, but to have a
daily conversational type ofrelationship.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow I think that one of the
things that I have observed issometimes people who are afraid
of God or who have been onlytold that God is there to judge
(29:12):
them are not very interested inhaving a conversation or a life
in, in in that kind of presence.
Can you talk about that for aminute and how we can maybe
adjust what we know or how we'veseen or what we viewed?
Laurie Beth Jones (29:27):
Well, if you and I know you've read my book
Contessa Chronicles and I hadthis vision that Jesus was
raised on a ranch, has a twinsister named Contessa, who is
the Holy Spirit.
His parents were Al and Meg.
You know Alpha and Omega, andthey were all busy on the ranch
and there was a vineyard and theranch hands were named in
(29:48):
spanish, pause, which meanspeace, um order, which means
love.
All the ranch hands names werethe seven fruits of the spirit
and so jess would go for a rideor test, would saddle up the
horse and say I think I'm goingto go out with pause and do the
vineyards today.
So peace saddles up with theHoly Spirit and they go through
(30:09):
the vineyards.
Or Meg was in her design studioand she heard Jess and Tess
drawing and seeing littlesquiggles about a horse with a
long neck and the next morning,outside their window they see a
giraffe peeking in.
That their mother designedovernight out of their doodles
in the sand and that's thepresence of.
(30:31):
It's a family.
You know God said let us.
There is an us there and it isa family and people have tried
to describe it as angels anddemons and you know it's an
attempt to understand what's onthe other side of the veil, but
for me, if you make it reallyreal and, of course, growing up
(30:52):
with horses and everything, it'slike what could be better than
going to the lake with jess andtess and just diving into
crystal lake off the pier and hesuggests such a show-off.
He says watch this, you know.
Oh, I'm going to walk on water,watch this, you know.
And tessa being the Holy Spirit, she wants to watch the fish
underneath playing in theseaweed.
So the personalities of it'sreally joy.
(31:17):
It's really about joy andcreation and creativity.
That's what we were meant to doand anything that hinders that,
that's what needs to be cutaway the name-calling, the
demonizing of other people, allof this other stuff that needs
to be cut away.
Are you riding the vineyards?
(31:38):
Or are you drawing in thestudio with Meg, or have you
walked out with Chata Nango, whowas their nanny that helped
take care of Jess and Tess, whowent with them everywhere, going
out to the waterfalls to justsit and listen?
You know, it's just this.
It's just an overwhelmingpersonality of family and I have
(32:01):
said in other conversationsthat Jesus was a family man and
people say, oh, how could he?
He was a single you know, singlecat guy, right.
What stake does he have in thefuture?
A lot, a lot, because he dideverything, everything to please
his father.
His dying words were take careof my mother and he called us
(32:25):
all brothers and sisters and hewanted us to come home and have
supper.
And if that is not the essenceof the gospel, I don't know what
is.
He was a family man, calling usto come home.
So any of the sorrow, any of allthe things that the bad
(32:46):
happened, the things thathappened were because we just
didn't know who he was and whathe was trying to say and didn't
feel worthy, right, that's whyhe turned to the guy God, you
know my youth, you see me, mydad would love to meet you.
Come home tonight, I'll see youat dinner tonight.
Home tonight, I'll see you atdinner tonight.
(33:08):
The dying hurts, but just for aminute, you know.
So it's just if people couldexperience this joy and this is
what I wanted with all of mywork was to be able to see Jesus
through a different lens as aCEO, as wearing blue jeans.
As a coach Jesus Life coach,having a recipe there's a way to
(33:28):
figure out what you're calledto do.
And as you go through the agesand having the time to go
through and study as I havethrough all my life Scripture
and all those things, you beginto see patterns.
It's pattern recognition.
And, like you say, once you getthat filter, you start to say,
wow, I didn't know, red waseverywhere, you know.
(33:49):
Or I love the color orangeright now.
And just like, wow, look at theorange, orange hats, orange
umbrellas, orange swim trunks,orange kayaks, you know it's.
You probably do that with silas, you know your son, just when
you put that filter on, thensuddenly you see and and that's
what I wanted my work to be, notthe religiosity dogma,
(34:10):
restrictive, boring um cryptomania can we jump in there?
for a second go ahead.
Shelly Shepherd (34:20):
Many of your, many of your books were
positioned as business books.
In fact, business Week citedyou as a woman author.
You can talk to us about thatHaving two bestselling books on
the list of the Business Weekbestselling list at one time.
(34:40):
Can you share a little bitabout what that's like?
A little bit about what that'slike your thoughts of how you
saw Jesus as this team person,t-e-a-m.
Right, the business side ofJesus, inserting that at a time
in history where nobody wantedanything to do with your work
(35:02):
and somebody saw the potentialof that.
Yeah, it's like I heardsomething the other day and I
can't remember who said it, butit's like all first ideas are
blasphemy, right, it's like thisidea is so crazy that I just
(35:23):
heard you say this must beblasphemy because there's no
truth in this, and so it musthave been like that for you like
to be the first person to writeto pair Jesus in business.
So talk to us just for a fewminutes about that.
I don't know how much more timewe have today here.
I know we're going to have tohave you back on this
expansionist podcast, but Ithink it's significant because
(35:46):
you did something very unique inbringing Jesus to the
marketplace and now everybodytalks about that.
But you were the first person,as a woman, to maybe bring it in
the way that you did.
Laurie Beth Jones (36:01):
Well, I was a businesswoman at the time and I
was looking for leadershipbooks on how to work with a
creative.
I had an advertising agency andall the best selling books.
These were the names inbusiness looking out for number
one, winning through fear andintimidation, the art of war in
business and the leadershipsecrets of Attila the Hun.
(36:23):
And that sent me over the edgebecause he raped and pillaged
for a living.
And yet business leaders, thewhole culture, when you step
back, pattern recognition andyou look at the culture they
were creating, it was hostility,triumph of one over many, using
other people to get where youwant to go.
It was very Machiavellian andit was like whoa and I thought
(36:46):
that's not how Jesus led.
He didn't throw people underthe bus, he stood in front of
the bus even when they messed up.
And so, for me, business and Ilove business because that is
where most people spend most oftheir time they don't you know
at the time going to church,maybe two hours, or, unless
you're a pastor, you're alwaysthere right In the business of
(37:09):
life.
But from my perspective, how isthis going to help me in my
day-to-day working needs of howto deal with a marketing person
and a designer and an accountantand I wanted to write the copy.
You know, how is that going tohelp me pull it all together?
And so, watching Jesus how hegot his team to be willing to
(37:31):
work for free and die for him, Iwas like, wow, he did.
They worked for free and theywere willing to die for him.
Who wouldn't want a team likethat?
Well, how did he do that?
And it wasn't through preaching.
He walked with them and heloved them and he loved them and
he loved them even as theywalked away.
That's the challenge ofleadership in business.
(37:56):
So it was just a fascinatinglens.
Then, suddenly, you put thatlens on.
How did he do this?
You know, when John the Baptist, his own cousin, was doubting
him, jesus said who did you comeout here to see A reed shaken
by the wind?
I tell you, no one born ofwoman is greater than John the
Baptist.
(38:16):
I thought he defended the manwho was his own cousin,
questioning him in front of acrowd.
How humiliating could that be?
He stepped right up.
No one greater.
You know, what did you?
I love that phrase.
What did you come out here tosee a reed shaken by the wind.
That's the deep.
That's the deep when you knowwho you are and whose you are,
(38:41):
you're not going to be moved bythe tides and the opinions of
others.
So that was a very long answerto your question, but it became
the lens and suddenly I wasbeing reached out to people from
business, health, government,faith and service organizations,
the mass media, thedisenfranchised, because I
started getting all these.
(39:02):
This was back when letters,people would write letters and
phone calls, they were pouringin, and so my wonderful
assistant, she, was taking thesenotes and they were messages,
and so I thought, for somereason, there's something in me
that likes to organize and Istarted putting them in sacks.
Well, this one came from church,this one came from the
government, this one came fromand it was like seven, which I
(39:23):
started calling the sevenpillars of society, but these
people weren't church people.
They started calling the sevenpillars of society, but these
people weren't church people.
They were all dealing withreal-life issues in the world,
in the church, in faith andservice, in the Pentagon, in
government, in education Thankyou Business, health care,
education.
So many hospitals.
I did a lot of work withhospitals and leaders in
(39:47):
hospitals because they are theones who are, on 24-7, dealing
with not only the physical needbut the emotional and financial
need of that person in front ofthem, right, which is what Jesus
did healing, teaching andpreaching.
So, yeah, I could talk all dayabout this, but I don't know if
I answered your question that.
Shelly Shepherd (40:06):
That's beautiful.
Heather Drake (40:07):
I love that.
I love that, I love it.
It's so beautiful.
Do we have a couple of minutesto talk about the power of
positive prophecy?
Laurie Beth Jones (40:17):
Oh, I love that.
Yes, yes.
Heather Drake (40:19):
Indeed, I love it too.
I love it too.
We mention often that I thinkthat if people are going to go
into the ministry, that shouldbe required reading.
Beautiful Thank you and not justministry, I think for people's
lives and you touch on somethingthat I don't feel like I have
any other touch point for.
(40:39):
But if we can talk for a momentabout the prophecy of animals,
I know this will probably be themost important part of our
podcast, but you have a sectionin there about the prophecy of
animals and I cannot tell youhow many times not only have I
received the prophecy of animalssince that and recognized it as
(41:00):
a holy prophecy, but also beenable to bring such comfort to
people when they, as a pastor,are saying I received so much
help from my pet, you know, orfrom this animal, and then to be
able to name it as oh, that'sthe power of the prophecy of
animals.
(41:20):
And then they're like well,where did you learn that?
I'm like from this book.
Here they want me to cite mysource, but I'm like it's part
of the creation, it's part ofthe witness.
It's part of the witness of whatGod has for us.
So if you could spend a littlebit of time talking about the
power of the prophecy of animalsto us, particularly now when
(41:40):
people need, I think, more thanever, a prophet that is reliable
.
Shelly Shepherd (41:47):
Maybe we should only go to the prophecy of
animals right now.
Exactly that was good.
Laurie Beth Jones (41:53):
Oh well, that was so good, yeah, we could
talk so much about that.
I don't know if you know that Irecently got my groom license
with my sister, and her husbandhave racehorses, they and they
had this one that I just fell inlove with, and in order to be
there, I couldn't they alwayshave to have an owner or trainer
with them, and I grew up withhorses, and so I said, what do I
(42:16):
have to do to become to bearound them?
And they said, well, you couldget your groom's license and I
said, oh great, okay, what do Ineed to study anatomy?
Da da da.
They said it's a drug test.
So, okay, I think I could passa drug test.
So I are a common theme inreligious art and some people
(42:50):
call it auras, and that thehuman aura is typically about as
far as you can reach with yourhands.
A horse's aura is 60 feet andthey cannot talk.
You know so the healing powerof animals, the comfort of the
dog, and you see the dogs andthe way God is, the divine is
(43:14):
always speaking to us, and yetour frequencies are so limited.
If we can open up and see thata butterfly landing on our nose
is a prophecy.
You know that anything can talkto us at any time if we are
open.
And you know, the biblical storyis, uh, the, the prophet who
(43:35):
was going to go curse the townjust for money, probably and his
donkey stopped and he got offand he's beating the donkey and
he's saying I've got to get tothat town, I'm not going to get
paid to tell them they're goingto die.
And the donkey finally says youknow, why are you hitting me?
Why are you beating me?
And he stops and this angelsays you know that, donkey, if
(43:58):
you had gone and done that,because you weren't doing it for
the Lord, you were doing it foryourself.
And a lot of negative prophetsare not speaking for the Lord, I
can tell you.
They do it because it attractspeople, scares them, makes them
give money, you know.
But he said that if, if youhadn't listened to that donkey,
(44:20):
you would have been killed.
I was sent here to kill you.
That donkey just saved yourlife by balking, by balking, and
so that was.
You know, one of the biblicalstories of Elijah is just we
think that God, the divine, onlytalks through words.
Which words?
And what about children who arenonverbal?
(44:41):
You know?
What about?
How?
How can an animal be acomforter and know exactly how
to curl up when someone has died.
When I lost my dog Rue after 17years and I went to a friend's
house and their dog she is a dogtherapist and takes her dog
(45:02):
with her to do healing therapyand her dog Colin, who usually
would greet me with running andplaying I sat down and he got up
from his bed and he came and hestood in front of me and looked
at me with if he, if a dogcould cry, and he held my face
in his gaze for 45 seconds andwhat he said to me was I know.
(45:25):
I know, I know.
Let's be open to all the waysthe divine communicates to us
and not say only one person is aprophet, only one church has
the truth, only one book has allthe answers.
It's a constant.
(45:47):
Everything is a love letter.
The palm trees I'm looking atright now, the moon coming up,
the waves undulating it's all alove letter to us.
We have been given everythingon this planet, everything.
What are we doing with it andwho are we walking with while we
(46:07):
look at it?
And I think in the creationstory, that's all God really
wanted was someone to walk within the garden and visit.
Call it out.
So yeah, I just get excitedtalking about this.
(46:27):
Wow, thinking about it.
Shelly Shepherd (46:31):
Thank you for reminding us again today that we
are in the castle.
Yes, we are no longer justknocking at the door.
Exactly Such a beautiful,beautiful time with you.
Exactly, heather, anything elsebefore we wrap this session
with Lori Beth?
Heather Drake (46:45):
I know we're going to no, you're just going
to have to stop me, because thatwould be, yeah, I would just
ask more questions, but someother time.
But thank you, thank you somuch for sharing this space with
us An absolute pleasure and joyand, again, just an enrichment,
I think, to the things thatyou've already gifted us with
and clearly in the show noteswe'll put on there.
(47:08):
You know the list of books andsome of our favorite ones I um,
I have.
When we were first married, wehad a very small house and a lot
of people living with us andyou had one of the chapters was
he kept his altar clean andobviously that was metaphorical.
But there was for me this reallyimportant part of my life in
(47:28):
the way that I was managing atiny house and a lot of people
was.
I didn't want anyone to putanything on this front entry
table, you know, otherwise itcould get piled up with stuff,
and then that became like avisual for me of going.
That is like my ownspirituality.
I don't want just piles ofstuff, I want intentional things
that are here to make our pathseasier.
(47:49):
And so, like this one tiny titlethat you have, he kept his
altar clean.
For me became this mantra of.
This is how I gain some kind ofessence, of a feeling of
efficiency, not of control, butof saying it's inefficient just
to put piles and piles of stuffhere.
Shelly Shepherd (48:05):
Let's find another place.
Heather Drake (48:06):
Let's keep this altar clean.
Shelly Shepherd (48:12):
Keep these thoughts clear, very practical
wisdom and it was.
Heather Drake (48:14):
so.
There's so many things I couldtalk to you about my favorite
one recently.
I have a Nathaniel and he cameand he goes.
Hey, you know there's a lot ofgood science around humming and
how important it is to be ableto um, he's an athlete and to be
able to help with anxiety andall this stuff.
And I was like, yes, in fact,20, more than 25 years ago,
there was a chapter I read aboutJesus humming and it was like
(48:35):
resonating with me the wholetime.
So it's funny to me now to seehe showed me this thing on
Instagram.
I'm like if they had read LoriBeth's book, they could have had
this truth so long ago, but soagain, I, just and that I think
every part of it has been sobeautiful.
But in the way that you havegifted us this wisdom, it has
been life forming.
I wouldn't only say lifechanging, but life forming in
(48:57):
the life that we've been allowedby the wisdom that you have
offered to see Jesus in.
I think that if people arestruggling with the way that
they've seen God or Jesus orspirituality, I think it could
be a really liberatingexperience to read the Contessa
Chronicles or to read Jesus inBlue Jeans and be able to see
(49:19):
your take on the beauty and thegoodness and the kindness of God
.
Laurie Beth Jones (49:26):
Yes, beautiful, thank you.
Thank you both so much.
Yes.
Shelly Shepherd (49:30):
Beautiful, thank you.
Thank you both so much.
Yes, lori, I'll close with thisthought, and you've heard me
say this for quite many years IfJesus were choosing 12 today
and he was here among us, I'mconfident that you would be one
of those, and probably you aswell.
Heather, thank you for theadd-on, and you too, shelley,
(49:51):
I'm confident that you would beone of the 12, for sure.
Heather Drake (49:55):
But I definitely agree with your nomination.
I second your nomination forLord Jesus.
Shelly Shepherd (49:59):
Yes, yes, thank you, thank you, thank you for
living your mission, thank youfor sharing.
Heather Drake (50:03):
All right, it was a joy, thank you.
It was a joy, thank you, thankyou, thank you, go in peace.
Laurie Beth Jones (50:07):
Thank you for expanding theology and for the
work that you're doing aroundwisdom and love in the world.
Heather Drake (50:13):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Hello, shelley, it is myabsolute joy to be with you
(00:22):
today podcasting because we havesuch a special guest.
Shelly Shepherd (00:26):
Yes, we do Lori .
Heather Drake (00:27):
Beth Jones is here and I am so excited that we
get to be in the presence andto be able to access the wisdom
and ask questions, but reallyjust to have a really powerful
conversation with Lori Beth andwith you, and I'm just thrilled.
I've been hardly able to sleepthinking about all the questions
that I want to ask.
(00:48):
So again, you promised this maynot be the last interview, so
I'm looking forward to a part Balready, but help me tell all
the wonderful things that LoriBeth is and has done.
Shelly Shepherd (01:01):
Yes, and thank you.
Thank you for that introductionis and has done.
Yes, and thank you.
Thank you for that introduction, heather.
It is great to be here in thisstudio space with you and Lori
Beth.
Lori Beth, welcome to this show, this podcast of the
Expansionist Podcast.
It's a delight to have you inthis space with us and I, too,
am very excited about not justthis moment but the years that
(01:26):
your work has had, the impact ithas had on so many people, and
Heather and I were talking inthe pre-show how we're not sure
how many people know the nameLori Beth Jones, but we thought
let's start changing that, let'sget Lori Beth Jones out there,
and so people can read theseamazing books and and understand
(01:46):
this philosophy that you bringum to the world.
Really, so thank you for yourpresence here with us today.
Laurie Beth Jones (01:53):
It's great to have you I'm thrilled to be on
your show.
I listen to your podcast.
You all bring fresh light andlife and your thoughtful
dialogue is so needed todayaround the concept of love and
wisdom and joy.
So I'm an honored guest,honored to be here.
Shelly Shepherd (02:13):
Excellent.
So do you want to kick off withone of your questions, Heather,
or would you like me to dive in?
Heather Drake (02:19):
Well, yeah, and I want to tell because maybe the
listeners don't know Lori Bethyet, but I think that they
should.
I often prescribe Lori Beth yet, but I think that they should.
I often prescribe Lori Beth'sbooks, and there are, they might
know her works right, theymight know her works right, they
might not always know the name,but yes, I wonder if maybe a
much younger crowd maybe doesn't, or people have and I'm sure
(02:40):
there's, because there are somany books many people probably
have, but in the maybe in thecommunity that we're speaking to
, a lot they may not be aswidely known, and so it has been
such a source of joy and ofexpansion for me personally and
for my husband and for thelittle family that we were
(03:02):
growing, because we startedreading Lori Beth's book in 1987
.
97, sorry, I was graduatinghigh school in 87.
But in 97, I got Jesus CEO andthe Path and Jesus in Blue Jeans
.
I think Jesus in Blue Jeans wasfirst for me, but those three
books were so impactful inshaping of the way that I was
(03:28):
given permission, I think, bythe books, to see Jesus outside
of the gospels of Matthew, mark,Luke and John, and then what
that permission did for my life,to be able to say there is a
personal invitation to a wisdomthat is applicable for me right
now.
And so I was mentioning earliertoo that there's one of the
(03:51):
things that you mentioned inJesus CEO and you talk a lot
about incredible, brilliantthings, but that he troubled
himself on behalf of others.
That was so huge for us to beable to see that about Jesus.
That was so huge for us to beable to see that about Jesus.
And then there's another onethat was talking about he didn't
dismiss the small things, andthat was so important to me as a
(04:13):
mom of tiny people, when itseemed like everybody else was
doing great things.
And then there were these tinythings that needed to be cared
for, that needed to be done, andit just became such an
expansion of my understanding ofeverything is sacred the tiny
people that I could talk aboutsome of those and that I
wouldn't ramble, because I couldread the whole book to people
(04:49):
and then that could be a wholepodcast, or maybe you could just
like read them.
But can we talk for a minuteabout Jesus in blue jeans?
And one of the things that wasso impactful to me is when you
started talking about Jesus andsharing revelation that you had
from Christ.
Not only did it give mepermission as a pastor and as a
(05:10):
person who was leading otherpeople into discipleship, but
you presented wisdoms that I hadnot seen before, and when I
used the lens of what you showedme, I was able to see things
myself so much differently andso much more intentionally and
lovingly.
And so can you talk to us alittle bit about the Jesus in
(05:33):
blue jeans?
I'll, I'll.
It's an entire book, but can I?
Can I put a quarter in you?
Can I put a quarter in you forthe one that you talked about?
where you said he thrust hishand through the door.
Laurie Beth Jones (05:47):
Oh yeah, that is a powerful one and it's from
the Song of Solomon, thereference.
But so often, well, I thinkthere's kind of two schools of
thought on Jesus broadly.
One is he's the militant angry,throw him into hell for those
that don't look like us, actlike us, believe like us.
And then there's the verycompassionate, the good shepherd
(06:10):
, the kind, and so the challengewith those two are sometimes he
was passionate and he was not adoormat and you know, I grew up
seeing the picture of himholding a lantern, knocking on
the door, you know with theshepherd's robe and knocking
gently on the door and waitingand behold, I stand at the door
(06:33):
and knock.
Also, the concept of truth thatrelates to when he said to
Lazarus the people standingaround Lazarus unbind him and
set him free Because the corevalue I think that he had was
(06:54):
freedom.
A core value was freedom andthe notion of seeing someone
bound up or seeing somethinghappening on the other side of a
door that you know is wrong andjust saying, well, let the
elders take care of it or, oh,you know, it'll all be solved in
the sweet by and by.
(07:15):
That is not the nature of Jesus.
In blue jeans, I mean thrustinghis hand through the door and
also into our hearts.
You know that that concept of Iwill not let you go uh, ann
lamont talks about that, how hepursued her for so long.
Finally, she said a cuss wordand said, okay, come on in.
(07:35):
You know, yeah, um, so thatthat reference is to me so
powerful that there is a timewhen niceties and protocol and
rules and all those other things, he will go through that to
(07:57):
grab what's essential, and somust we.
Heather Drake (08:00):
Yeah, one of the things that I gleaned from that.
So you wrote that chapter.
He thrust his hand through thedoor and what happened for me
was I felt like I saw a Jesusthat was different than I had
ever been told about, and thatpassion to be able to say I will
come and get you.
(08:21):
Because in the verses previousto that, the woman is saying I'm
not, my hair is washed and myfeet are clean.
I can't get out of the bed.
And so many people findthemselves in a place where they
can't go any further.
They can't, I mean, they'vedone what they know to do.
And Jesus seems far away fromthat.
And the beauty of thatinvitation that says will you
(08:42):
let him thrust his hand to thedoor and come in himself, that
became such a beautiful,especially to people who have
been traumatized or who are inrelationships that make them
feel, you know, with church andwith other things, that it's
just too difficult to keeptrying that.
Can we open ourselves, consentto the loving spirit of God who
(09:04):
will say I'll come and get you.
It's okay, hold on, I'm comingfor you, right?
It doesn't have to be such hardwork to follow Jesus.
It doesn't have to be now getyour hair done and your boots on
, and now we're all marching toonward.
Christian soldiers, I mean,sometimes you can lay in your
bed and wait for love to come toyou.
Laurie Beth Jones (09:20):
Yes, yes, there is that, there is that.
Shelly Shepherd (09:24):
I had a similar notation to talk about, which
also had to do with knocking,and I think it might have been
(09:50):
in yeah, it's in Teach your Teento Fish, your book Teach your
Teen to Fish, which I think wasaround 2000, I don't know, 2002,
or sometime 2002 or 2003,.
That book came out.
Um, but you, you made a pointto um, you, you start the book.
I mean, you start that chapter.
Um, he went deep in order to gowide.
So it's almost like reachingthrough the door.
He's going, he's going deeper,wide for someone.
Right, you start that particularchapter with a Rumi quote which
(10:10):
I want to give to you.
Here it's you must always carryan unsolvable problem in your
heart, and that's a Rumi quote.
Right, that's how you start thechapter.
But then, as you get into this,you remind us that we no longer
need to stand at the door andknock.
We now dwell in the castle, andI don't know why.
(10:34):
It was just this beautifulimagery, almost like the door
reaching through.
Right, I'm going to come foryou.
I'm going to come and get youfor you, I'm going to come and
get you.
But here in this book, you'relike inspiring me particular,
and us who have read this book.
Wow, we are, we're, we'redwelling in this castle.
(10:54):
You know we're no longer, youknow, maybe thinking that we
need to bust the door down youknow uh you know to to get in,
um, but I've often heard yourefer to or speak about going
deep and going wide Like.
This is a philosophy that youhave, not just in your writing,
but also with people.
Right, you'd rather do aone-on-one than get in front of
(11:18):
an audience of 6,000.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat.
That deep you know.
Going deep to go wide, whatdoes that actually mean for you?
Laurie Beth Jones (11:27):
Well, you know Jesus spoke to Mary
Magdalene at the well right.
Wasn't she the woman at thewell, or was it?
You all are experts in that,but forgive my ignorance on that
.
Shelly Shepherd (11:38):
That's debatable.
Debatable, okay, but anyway,that's debatable, all right.
Laurie Beth Jones (11:42):
So let's use that imagery of him waiting by a
well and the woman.
You go deep to draw water fromthe well.
And I think in our culture,with all the distractions and
all of the the noise around us,it is very hard to go deep,
particularly when the emphasisis how many followers do you
have, how many?
(12:02):
How many TikTok followers doyou have?
How many hits did you get Allof this stuff?
And you see these people,sometimes these influencers,
with millions of followers, andthey jump off a building.
You know, because that is notthe answer.
The answer is, if you have, likethe image of the cross, is god
(12:24):
and jesus connected, youconnected to god?
And then your arms outstretchedto other people, but you only
have two hands.
So it's almost to me, I wouldrather have three deep friends
than three thousand who click onme and then go to the next
person to click on right.
So going deep is it's also inourselves right If you can
(12:47):
connect with something thatmeans so much to you.
And I know that you as a pastor, heather and Shelly, you also
as a pastor, and having beendoing this work around ministry
and theology for most of youradult life, you are constantly
winnowing down what is theessence, right?
(13:08):
I mean, what are the filtersthat you use?
Heather, you mentioned you andDennis saying you know that
mantra we trouble ourselves onother people's behalf when it
comes to decision time.
You make a decision based onthat one thing, right.
So going deep means what doesthis matter ultimately between
(13:29):
me and God, and the impact tothe world doesn't really matter
as much, and I think we worrytoo much about what other people
think.
This was so freeing to me.
Let me tell you in writing whenI realized, and having come from
an abusive marriage where thiswhole system was telling me what
(13:51):
I could say, what I could wear,what I could not do, and all
that, and when I realized that Ionly had one person to answer
to and that was Jesus, and Ihave lived my life consciously
making it that way, trying toremember that there's one
relationship, one person, that Ineed to sit down and say how
(14:14):
did I do today, how was today?
And I don't even thatconversation of how did I do
that implies a judgment of youknow, how did you do on the
Christian score or any of thosethings.
Now, it's kind of like justsitting and looking outside and
watching the dog walkers go byIsn't that the cutest little
French bulldog you ever saw?
(14:35):
And then just feeling thepresence of just his laughter or
something like that.
So I'm kind of rambling here.
But the sense of depth, ofconnection and, Heather, I was
thinking about you with TinyPeople when I was writing Jesus,
ceo, having cut away myadvertising agency and my
(14:57):
marriage and all those otherthings, and I went out to the
desert to write and I actuallyfelt like I was nursing a child
desert to write and I actuallyfelt like I was nursing a child
that I imagine I've never donethat, but that flow of there's
nothing in the world moreimportant than this connection
me and the words, me and thattrailer in the desert that was
(15:20):
going deep.
I had no idea it would go wideand so if you start out thinking
you're going to go wide, you'reprobably not going to go deep.
But if you go deep and go asdeep as you can to who you are
and what the truth is of yourmeaning in this world, it may go
wide.
It may not go wide, you don'tknow, but it won't matter
(15:41):
because you will have connected,you will have pulled up the
living water from the well ofyour own being and you'll never
be thirsty again.
Heather Drake (15:58):
Do you have a single memory, or a few memories
that connect to you, of how youcame to be aware of the
presence of Jesus in your life?
Because the way that you talkabout Jesus, I've been to Sunday
school for a really long time.
I've been to lots of them.
I've been to church.
I've been I mean it was I'vegot a lot of church and nobody
other than Lori Beth Jones toldme that Jesus was wearing blue
(16:18):
jeans and that he was ready totalk to me now and live my life
with me.
And so how does a person or howdid you, I mean again, and then
your living it gave mepermission to experience life
with the presence of Jesus everyday, not the Jesus in a robe
(16:40):
that lives in Galilee by theseashore, but a very real Jesus,
present, love, present rightnow.
Laurie Beth Jones (16:47):
Right, exactly, exactly, well, when I
began, when I gave my life toJesus consciously, and I've
always seen the Bible not always, but the theme.
It's a love story, right, ifyou take it, it's a love story
between our understanding of thedivine and who we are.
(17:08):
And so if you love somebody,you want to learn everything
about them, right?
So I'm reading all these things, every love letter, every
circling the words, like it wasa valentine to me.
You know that it was not onlyjust out there, but this was a
love story, a love note to me.
And so one day I was out takingmy horse in the field and I was,
(17:33):
and I would write while thehorse would graze beside me and
I had two dogs and it was in ameadow I mean, just beautiful
scene.
And I saw this man in the field, across the field.
It was maybe, I don't know, 40feet away, 30 feet away, and I
looked up.
I was startled because I was inthe forest and I got closer and
(17:55):
it was Jesus wearing blue jeans, as clear as if you know,
someone had walked out of thewoods and I just looked at him
and said why are you wearingblue jeans?
And he said well, I wore a robebecause they wore a robe and
I'm wearing blue jeans becauseyou're wearing blue jeans.
And the moment of just the twoof us with the horse and the
(18:18):
dogs and maybe the deer in thedistance, it was like, oh, I
want this feeling all the timeand the sense was, well, you
have it, you can have it becauseI'm here.
And I said I will someday writea book called Jesus in Blue
Jeans, and I was 19 years old atthe time and that didn't happen
(18:38):
until I was 43.
But so that's kind of my.
That was my vow, my pledge vowthat I had to do the first two
books first.
But I said I'm going to do this.
And so when I got the publishedcopy, I lifted it up and I said
here's my offering.
(18:59):
I did it you know I closed thecircle.
Heather Drake (19:02):
Oh, that's so beautiful, that's so beautiful.
Laurie Beth Jones (19:04):
Thank you.
Heather Drake (19:05):
I don't know how many books you've actually
written.
Do you know that number?
Do you keep count Fifteen?
But those are published books.
Shelly Shepherd (19:12):
You probably have other books that are not
published.
Heather Drake (19:21):
Yes, yes, that I have kind of lived by.
They've kind of shaped my faithand the way that I have.
Again, you've given me somelenses to do that.
One of them, the Jesus in bluejeans, the Jesus CEO.
Ancient wisdom that was sorevolutionary for me, and just
recognizing that a wisdom wasnot just something to be learned
(19:42):
but something to be lived by.
That was so incredible for meand then became something that
was a bedrock.
Now, many of the things thatyou talked about in that book,
as far as the same scriptures,were scriptures that I had been
taught and been reading foryears, but you offered them in
such a way that they wereillumined, almost like a prism
(20:05):
in me, to show me things that Iactually knew but didn't even
know that I knew.
And when I would read thosethings I would be like, yes,
that is what I know.
That is the words around what.
I know to be true, and that wasso incredible.
Also the path, just remarkablethat there's so many things in
it that were so beautiful.
And in fact, dennis and Ipastor a church and the reason
(20:27):
that we feel like we were ableto even pull this out of the
ground a church that we launchedwas because we took the path.
And I wanted to talk a minuteabout that because I know there
are a lot of people with reallybig dreams and really wonderful
things they want to do for theworld.
But the idea of how do I takewhat's in my person or in my
(20:50):
thought and actually live inthat thought?
And I think the path is.
I mean, people laugh all thetime at us.
They're like, well, what shouldwe do after we do that book?
I'm like nothing, becauseyou'll be doing it.
So that is the path.
Just walk it, just walk thepath, walk it, just walk the
path.
But there's so much justincredible goodness in there.
Talk to me a little bit aboutwho you think could benefit from
(21:15):
the path.
Laurie Beth Jones (21:21):
The path is like a harness.
Getting your mission statementand being able to say it in a
single sentence is both aharness and a sword.
It harnesses you into the workthat you feel called to do and
it cuts away everything that isfalse.
So learning where and when andhow to say no is vital to an
intentional life.
If you just say yes toeverything, you're going to turn
into a swamp, a stagnant swamp,and that's not going to support
(21:43):
any kind of living water rightin that swamp and that's not
going to support any kind ofliving water right.
So being able to say no, but inorder to do that, you have to
be clear.
What did I come here to do?
And I believe that each of usare born with a calling within
us and, as we've done the pathwith kids as young as five, they
have a sense of what they wantto do in the world, and I'm not
(22:06):
talking oh, I want to be aballerina or a fireman or
something like that.
I mean, when you get to it,there's an innate sense of
justice, or there's an innatesense of making people feel
welcome or having a callingabout it.
And, as we've done the pathwith first offenders and prison
systems 16 and 17-year-olds.
First offenders and prisonsystems 16 and 17 year olds.
Shelly Shepherd (22:33):
It's, the questions in the path are
literally a recipe for life.
I was going to ask you to shareyour mission statement because
a little bit ago you used theword connection.
Divine connection is really howthe path you know unfurled for
you was getting clear about yourown mission statement.
So so maybe share that and anda little bit of your story about
how you, you change from divineexcellence to divine connection
(22:56):
.
And and now that you got clear,when you got clear about it
being divine connection ascompared to divine excellence,
that this whole you know arrayof understanding that has been
given to all of us that haveread your work has also helped
shaped us.
Your divine connection hashelped to shape you.
Living your mission has helpedmany people shape their own
(23:18):
connection as well, yes, thankyou, shelley.
Laurie Beth Jones (23:20):
That's.
That's the going deep in orderto go wide.
And this is something that Ithought about as I thought about
this podcast.
I wanted to stress if you, ifand when you are living your
mission, you may or may not knowit's going to go wide, but you
will feel that sense ofconnection no matter where you
are or what you're doing.
So my mission is to recognize,promote and inspire divine
(23:45):
connection in myself and others.
So it's three verbs, a corevalue and the tribe, which is
myself and others, and it wasdivine excellence.
And my mentor, catherine,challenged me and she said what
is excellence?
Oh, you know, it's likesomething really good.
Well, who defines it?
You know, but really so, if youlook at it, I want to.
(24:10):
No matter how people encounterme or my work, did I help them
plug in to the divine?
Something I said gave them anew lens, like you said, heather
, for how to see Jesus and thepresence in this world.
(24:30):
That's what I want to be about,and it's not about being liked
or being the most popular orbeing the most anything else.
If I can help people connectinto the, it's like you know,
reboot your machine, or, if youdon't plug it in.
If you plug it in, the powercomes on.
If the people aren't plugged in, it doesn't matter how much you
(24:51):
preach to them, because they'renot connected and that's what
they need to do.
It's an individual connectionof getting connected to the
divine.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, shelley, but it
is the deep going deep to gowide.
Heather Drake (25:05):
We want to pause and take a moment and let you
know how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
Laurie Beth Jones (25:25):
I give the example of.
I had the privilege, as thebook became a bestseller and all
those things of preaching andteaching and talking and praying
with generals in the Pentagonand prisoners women prisoners in
Colorado and nuns in NewOrleans and CEOs in Cincinnati.
I mean it was just a huge thing.
But one time I was called tospeak in December in New York
(25:50):
and it was the combined meetingof the ATF and the United Postal
Service and this was not ahappy crowd and this was not a
happy time and it was rainingand it was cold and I spoke.
My all of my jokes fell flatand my exercise of now lean over
(26:10):
to your neighbor and tell themwhat was your parents unlived
life, and I mean those peoplesit ramrod straight and I it was
the longest two and a halfhours I have ever a seminar.
And then I started thinking amI right now doing my very best
(26:30):
to recognize, promote andinspire divine connection in
myself and others?
Am I doing that?
Yes, then this is where I needto be.
I could have been home by theChristmas tree with hot
chocolate and my nieces andnephews, but no, no, I'm in New
York speaking to a, you know,just a flat-faced crowd.
And then I knew that you knowlike, nobody bought books and I
(26:54):
packed it up and I just thought,okay, that was done.
A week later we got a letter, ananonymous letter, and it said
regarding your talk, december,it was like the 22nd or
something like that, december22nd I heard you unsigned.
So could I have been sent toNew York City in the middle of
December in a snowstorm to reachone person out of the 60 that
(27:19):
were there?
Yes, yes.
So that's the knowing.
I'm getting goosebumps thinkingabout it.
It doesn't matter what it lookslike externally, whether it's a
crowd of, how big your crowd is, it doesn't matter.
That's not the issue.
When Jesus was on the cross, hehad a crowd of how many?
Three, four Mm.
(27:41):
Hmm, it's not the crowd size,that is about connection, it's
going deep, as deep as eternity.
And this life, I believe, isreally, you know, I don't want
to say a sideshow, but it's noteverything, it's not all of it.
I was joking with some friendsof mine and they were talking
(28:02):
about where they're going to beburied and all this and I said
oh, so that's your preparation H?
They said preparation H.
I said so, that's yourpreparation age.
He said preparation age.
I said that's your preparationfor heaven.
Everybody gets so sad thinkingabout wheels and coffins and all
this other stuff and it's, youknow it's.
The veil will be lifted andright now we're sort of in a
cloud, but not alone never alone, thank you.
Shelly Shepherd (28:25):
Thank you for living your mission Wow.
Heather Drake (28:30):
Yes, those of us who are living in a world kind
of that you created by allowingus to create worlds that are
deeply meaningful andintentional and I think very
deep and that's a reallybeautiful thing.
You were talking aboutconnection with God and the idea
(28:51):
of an intimate connection, notjust broadband, but to have a
daily conversational type ofrelationship.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow I think that one of the
things that I have observed issometimes people who are afraid
of God or who have been onlytold that God is there to judge
(29:12):
them are not very interested inhaving a conversation or a life
in, in in that kind of presence.
Can you talk about that for aminute and how we can maybe
adjust what we know or how we'veseen or what we viewed?
Laurie Beth Jones (29:27):
Well, if you and I know you've read my book
Contessa Chronicles and I hadthis vision that Jesus was
raised on a ranch, has a twinsister named Contessa, who is
the Holy Spirit.
His parents were Al and Meg.
You know Alpha and Omega, andthey were all busy on the ranch
and there was a vineyard and theranch hands were named in
(29:48):
spanish, pause, which meanspeace, um order, which means
love.
All the ranch hands names werethe seven fruits of the spirit
and so jess would go for a rideor test, would saddle up the
horse and say I think I'm goingto go out with pause and do the
vineyards today.
So peace saddles up with theHoly Spirit and they go through
(30:09):
the vineyards.
Or Meg was in her design studioand she heard Jess and Tess
drawing and seeing littlesquiggles about a horse with a
long neck and the next morning,outside their window they see a
giraffe peeking in.
That their mother designedovernight out of their doodles
in the sand and that's thepresence of.
(30:31):
It's a family.
You know God said let us.
There is an us there and it isa family and people have tried
to describe it as angels anddemons and you know it's an
attempt to understand what's onthe other side of the veil, but
for me, if you make it reallyreal and, of course, growing up
(30:52):
with horses and everything, it'slike what could be better than
going to the lake with jess andtess and just diving into
crystal lake off the pier and hesuggests such a show-off.
He says watch this, you know.
Oh, I'm going to walk on water,watch this, you know.
And tessa being the Holy Spirit, she wants to watch the fish
underneath playing in theseaweed.
So the personalities of it'sreally joy.
(31:17):
It's really about joy andcreation and creativity.
That's what we were meant to doand anything that hinders that,
that's what needs to be cutaway the name-calling, the
demonizing of other people, allof this other stuff that needs
to be cut away.
Are you riding the vineyards?
(31:38):
Or are you drawing in thestudio with Meg, or have you
walked out with Chata Nango, whowas their nanny that helped
take care of Jess and Tess, whowent with them everywhere, going
out to the waterfalls to justsit and listen?
You know, it's just this.
It's just an overwhelmingpersonality of family and I have
(32:01):
said in other conversationsthat Jesus was a family man and
people say, oh, how could he?
He was a single you know, singlecat guy, right.
What stake does he have in thefuture?
A lot, a lot, because he dideverything, everything to please
his father.
His dying words were take careof my mother and he called us
(32:25):
all brothers and sisters and hewanted us to come home and have
supper.
And if that is not the essenceof the gospel, I don't know what
is.
He was a family man, calling usto come home.
So any of the sorrow, any of allthe things that the bad
(32:46):
happened, the things thathappened were because we just
didn't know who he was and whathe was trying to say and didn't
feel worthy, right, that's whyhe turned to the guy God, you
know my youth, you see me, mydad would love to meet you.
Come home tonight, I'll see youat dinner tonight.
Home tonight, I'll see you atdinner tonight.
(33:08):
The dying hurts, but just for aminute, you know.
So it's just if people couldexperience this joy and this is
what I wanted with all of mywork was to be able to see Jesus
through a different lens as aCEO, as wearing blue jeans.
As a coach Jesus Life coach,having a recipe there's a way to
(33:28):
figure out what you're calledto do.
And as you go through the agesand having the time to go
through and study as I havethrough all my life Scripture
and all those things, you beginto see patterns.
It's pattern recognition.
And, like you say, once you getthat filter, you start to say,
wow, I didn't know, red waseverywhere, you know.
(33:49):
Or I love the color orangeright now.
And just like, wow, look at theorange, orange hats, orange
umbrellas, orange swim trunks,orange kayaks, you know it's.
You probably do that with silas, you know your son, just when
you put that filter on, thensuddenly you see and and that's
what I wanted my work to be, notthe religiosity dogma,
(34:10):
restrictive, boring um cryptomania can we jump in there?
for a second go ahead.
Shelly Shepherd (34:20):
Many of your, many of your books were
positioned as business books.
In fact, business Week citedyou as a woman author.
You can talk to us about thatHaving two bestselling books on
the list of the Business Weekbestselling list at one time.
(34:40):
Can you share a little bitabout what that's like?
A little bit about what that'slike your thoughts of how you
saw Jesus as this team person,t-e-a-m.
Right, the business side ofJesus, inserting that at a time
in history where nobody wantedanything to do with your work
(35:02):
and somebody saw the potentialof that.
Yeah, it's like I heardsomething the other day and I
can't remember who said it, butit's like all first ideas are
blasphemy, right, it's like thisidea is so crazy that I just
(35:23):
heard you say this must beblasphemy because there's no
truth in this, and so it musthave been like that for you like
to be the first person to writeto pair Jesus in business.
So talk to us just for a fewminutes about that.
I don't know how much more timewe have today here.
I know we're going to have tohave you back on this
expansionist podcast, but Ithink it's significant because
(35:46):
you did something very unique inbringing Jesus to the
marketplace and now everybodytalks about that.
But you were the first person,as a woman, to maybe bring it in
the way that you did.
Laurie Beth Jones (36:01):
Well, I was a businesswoman at the time and I
was looking for leadershipbooks on how to work with a
creative.
I had an advertising agency andall the best selling books.
These were the names inbusiness looking out for number
one, winning through fear andintimidation, the art of war in
business and the leadershipsecrets of Attila the Hun.
(36:23):
And that sent me over the edgebecause he raped and pillaged
for a living.
And yet business leaders, thewhole culture, when you step
back, pattern recognition andyou look at the culture they
were creating, it was hostility,triumph of one over many, using
other people to get where youwant to go.
It was very Machiavellian andit was like whoa and I thought
(36:46):
that's not how Jesus led.
He didn't throw people underthe bus, he stood in front of
the bus even when they messed up.
And so, for me, business and Ilove business because that is
where most people spend most oftheir time they don't you know
at the time going to church,maybe two hours, or, unless
you're a pastor, you're alwaysthere right In the business of
(37:09):
life.
But from my perspective, how isthis going to help me in my
day-to-day working needs of howto deal with a marketing person
and a designer and an accountantand I wanted to write the copy.
You know, how is that going tohelp me pull it all together?
And so, watching Jesus how hegot his team to be willing to
(37:31):
work for free and die for him, Iwas like, wow, he did.
They worked for free and theywere willing to die for him.
Who wouldn't want a team likethat?
Well, how did he do that?
And it wasn't through preaching.
He walked with them and heloved them and he loved them and
he loved them even as theywalked away.
That's the challenge ofleadership in business.
(37:56):
So it was just a fascinatinglens.
Then, suddenly, you put thatlens on.
How did he do this?
You know, when John the Baptist, his own cousin, was doubting
him, jesus said who did you comeout here to see A reed shaken
by the wind?
I tell you, no one born ofwoman is greater than John the
Baptist.
(38:16):
I thought he defended the manwho was his own cousin,
questioning him in front of acrowd.
How humiliating could that be?
He stepped right up.
No one greater.
You know, what did you?
I love that phrase.
What did you come out here tosee a reed shaken by the wind.
That's the deep.
That's the deep when you knowwho you are and whose you are,
(38:41):
you're not going to be moved bythe tides and the opinions of
others.
So that was a very long answerto your question, but it became
the lens and suddenly I wasbeing reached out to people from
business, health, government,faith and service organizations,
the mass media, thedisenfranchised, because I
started getting all these.
(39:02):
This was back when letters,people would write letters and
phone calls, they were pouringin, and so my wonderful
assistant, she, was taking thesenotes and they were messages,
and so I thought, for somereason, there's something in me
that likes to organize and Istarted putting them in sacks.
Well, this one came from church,this one came from the
government, this one came fromand it was like seven, which I
(39:23):
started calling the sevenpillars of society, but these
people weren't church people.
They started calling the sevenpillars of society, but these
people weren't church people.
They were all dealing withreal-life issues in the world,
in the church, in faith andservice, in the Pentagon, in
government, in education Thankyou Business, health care,
education.
So many hospitals.
I did a lot of work withhospitals and leaders in
(39:47):
hospitals because they are theones who are, on 24-7, dealing
with not only the physical needbut the emotional and financial
need of that person in front ofthem, right, which is what Jesus
did healing, teaching andpreaching.
So, yeah, I could talk all dayabout this, but I don't know if
I answered your question that.
Shelly Shepherd (40:06):
That's beautiful.
Heather Drake (40:07):
I love that.
I love that, I love it.
It's so beautiful.
Do we have a couple of minutesto talk about the power of
positive prophecy?
Laurie Beth Jones (40:17):
Oh, I love that.
Yes, yes.
Heather Drake (40:19):
Indeed, I love it too.
I love it too.
We mention often that I thinkthat if people are going to go
into the ministry, that shouldbe required reading.
Beautiful Thank you and not justministry, I think for people's
lives and you touch on somethingthat I don't feel like I have
any other touch point for.
(40:39):
But if we can talk for a momentabout the prophecy of animals,
I know this will probably be themost important part of our
podcast, but you have a sectionin there about the prophecy of
animals and I cannot tell youhow many times not only have I
received the prophecy of animalssince that and recognized it as
(41:00):
a holy prophecy, but also beenable to bring such comfort to
people when they, as a pastor,are saying I received so much
help from my pet, you know, orfrom this animal, and then to be
able to name it as oh, that'sthe power of the prophecy of
animals.
(41:20):
And then they're like well,where did you learn that?
I'm like from this book.
Here they want me to cite mysource, but I'm like it's part
of the creation, it's part ofthe witness.
It's part of the witness of whatGod has for us.
So if you could spend a littlebit of time talking about the
power of the prophecy of animalsto us, particularly now when
(41:40):
people need, I think, more thanever, a prophet that is reliable
.
Shelly Shepherd (41:47):
Maybe we should only go to the prophecy of
animals right now.
Exactly that was good.
Laurie Beth Jones (41:53):
Oh well, that was so good, yeah, we could
talk so much about that.
I don't know if you know that Irecently got my groom license
with my sister, and her husbandhave racehorses, they and they
had this one that I just fell inlove with, and in order to be
there, I couldn't they alwayshave to have an owner or trainer
with them, and I grew up withhorses, and so I said, what do I
(42:16):
have to do to become to bearound them?
And they said, well, you couldget your groom's license and I
said, oh great, okay, what do Ineed to study anatomy?
Da da da.
They said it's a drug test.
So, okay, I think I could passa drug test.
So I are a common theme inreligious art and some people
(42:50):
call it auras, and that thehuman aura is typically about as
far as you can reach with yourhands.
A horse's aura is 60 feet andthey cannot talk.
You know so the healing powerof animals, the comfort of the
dog, and you see the dogs andthe way God is, the divine is
(43:14):
always speaking to us, and yetour frequencies are so limited.
If we can open up and see thata butterfly landing on our nose
is a prophecy.
You know that anything can talkto us at any time if we are
open.
And you know, the biblical storyis, uh, the, the prophet who
(43:35):
was going to go curse the townjust for money, probably and his
donkey stopped and he got offand he's beating the donkey and
he's saying I've got to get tothat town, I'm not going to get
paid to tell them they're goingto die.
And the donkey finally says youknow, why are you hitting me?
Why are you beating me?
And he stops and this angelsays you know that, donkey, if
(43:58):
you had gone and done that,because you weren't doing it for
the Lord, you were doing it foryourself.
And a lot of negative prophetsare not speaking for the Lord, I
can tell you.
They do it because it attractspeople, scares them, makes them
give money, you know.
But he said that if, if youhadn't listened to that donkey,
(44:20):
you would have been killed.
I was sent here to kill you.
That donkey just saved yourlife by balking, by balking, and
so that was.
You know, one of the biblicalstories of Elijah is just we
think that God, the divine, onlytalks through words.
Which words?
And what about children who arenonverbal?
(44:41):
You know?
What about?
How?
How can an animal be acomforter and know exactly how
to curl up when someone has died.
When I lost my dog Rue after 17years and I went to a friend's
house and their dog she is a dogtherapist and takes her dog
(45:02):
with her to do healing therapyand her dog Colin, who usually
would greet me with running andplaying I sat down and he got up
from his bed and he came and hestood in front of me and looked
at me with if he, if a dogcould cry, and he held my face
in his gaze for 45 seconds andwhat he said to me was I know.
(45:25):
I know, I know.
Let's be open to all the waysthe divine communicates to us
and not say only one person is aprophet, only one church has
the truth, only one book has allthe answers.
It's a constant.
(45:47):
Everything is a love letter.
The palm trees I'm looking atright now, the moon coming up,
the waves undulating it's all alove letter to us.
We have been given everythingon this planet, everything.
What are we doing with it andwho are we walking with while we
(46:07):
look at it?
And I think in the creationstory, that's all God really
wanted was someone to walk within the garden and visit.
Call it out.
So yeah, I just get excitedtalking about this.
(46:27):
Wow, thinking about it.
Shelly Shepherd (46:31):
Thank you for reminding us again today that we
are in the castle.
Yes, we are no longer justknocking at the door.
Exactly Such a beautiful,beautiful time with you.
Exactly, heather, anything elsebefore we wrap this session
with Lori Beth?
Heather Drake (46:45):
I know we're going to no, you're just going
to have to stop me, because thatwould be, yeah, I would just
ask more questions, but someother time.
But thank you, thank you somuch for sharing this space with
us An absolute pleasure and joyand, again, just an enrichment,
I think, to the things thatyou've already gifted us with
and clearly in the show noteswe'll put on there.
(47:08):
You know the list of books andsome of our favorite ones I um,
I have.
When we were first married, wehad a very small house and a lot
of people living with us andyou had one of the chapters was
he kept his altar clean andobviously that was metaphorical.
But there was for me this reallyimportant part of my life in
(47:28):
the way that I was managing atiny house and a lot of people
was.
I didn't want anyone to putanything on this front entry
table, you know, otherwise itcould get piled up with stuff,
and then that became like avisual for me of going.
That is like my ownspirituality.
I don't want just piles ofstuff, I want intentional things
that are here to make our pathseasier.
(47:49):
And so, like this one tiny titlethat you have, he kept his
altar clean.
For me became this mantra of.
This is how I gain some kind ofessence, of a feeling of
efficiency, not of control, butof saying it's inefficient just
to put piles and piles of stuffhere.
Shelly Shepherd (48:05):
Let's find another place.
Heather Drake (48:06):
Let's keep this altar clean.
Shelly Shepherd (48:12):
Keep these thoughts clear, very practical
wisdom and it was.
Heather Drake (48:14):
so.
There's so many things I couldtalk to you about my favorite
one recently.
I have a Nathaniel and he cameand he goes.
Hey, you know there's a lot ofgood science around humming and
how important it is to be ableto um, he's an athlete and to be
able to help with anxiety andall this stuff.
And I was like, yes, in fact,20, more than 25 years ago,
there was a chapter I read aboutJesus humming and it was like
(48:35):
resonating with me the wholetime.
So it's funny to me now to seehe showed me this thing on
Instagram.
I'm like if they had read LoriBeth's book, they could have had
this truth so long ago, but soagain, I, just and that I think
every part of it has been sobeautiful.
But in the way that you havegifted us this wisdom, it has
been life forming.
I wouldn't only say lifechanging, but life forming in
(48:57):
the life that we've been allowedby the wisdom that you have
offered to see Jesus in.
I think that if people arestruggling with the way that
they've seen God or Jesus orspirituality, I think it could
be a really liberatingexperience to read the Contessa
Chronicles or to read Jesus inBlue Jeans and be able to see
(49:19):
your take on the beauty and thegoodness and the kindness of God
.
Laurie Beth Jones (49:26):
Yes, beautiful, thank you.
Thank you both so much.
Yes.
Shelly Shepherd (49:30):
Beautiful, thank you.
Thank you both so much.
Yes, lori, I'll close with thisthought, and you've heard me
say this for quite many years IfJesus were choosing 12 today
and he was here among us, I'mconfident that you would be one
of those, and probably you aswell.
Heather, thank you for theadd-on, and you too, shelley,
(49:51):
I'm confident that you would beone of the 12, for sure.
Heather Drake (49:55):
But I definitely agree with your nomination.
I second your nomination forLord Jesus.
Shelly Shepherd (49:59):
Yes, yes, thank you, thank you, thank you for
living your mission, thank youfor sharing.
Heather Drake (50:03):
All right, it was a joy, thank you.
It was a joy, thank you, thankyou, thank you, go in peace.
Laurie Beth Jones (50:07):
Thank you for expanding theology and for the
work that you're doing aroundwisdom and love in the world.
Heather Drake (50:13):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
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