May 7, 2025 • 36 mins
Imagine stepping into a story that has been told for generations, only to discover there's another way of seeing it entirely. Shelley and Heather invite us to reconsider the foundation stories that have shaped women's spiritual identity for centuries. Beginning with a delightful childhood tale of "stealing" Mary Magdalene from the Sunday school flannel graph, they explore how limiting narratives about Eve have been used to constrain women's spiritual authority and leadership throughout history.
The magic happens when they reframe Mary Magdalene's garden encounter with the risen Christ as a powerful counternarrative to Eve's garden story. Where Eve was cast out, Mary is commissioned. Where Eve brought "sin" into the world, Mary brings resurrection news. This reframing offers women a spiritual lineage of power, authority, and divine calling rather than shame and limitation.
Through thoughtful scriptural analysis and personal reflection, Shelley and Heather show how the Gospel of John deliberately positions Mary Magdalene as a new Eve figure – the "apostle of the new and greatest hope" as Pope Francis called her when establishing her feast day in 2016. They invite listeners to practice what they call "holy imagination" – the ability to see beyond limited interpretations to uncover buried truths about women's place in the divine story.
This conversation isn't just theology – it's liberation. By reclaiming Mary Magdalene's position as first witness to resurrection and commissioned messenger, women can find a spiritual ancestor who represents their full humanity and divine calling. The hosts challenge all listeners to "make the beautiful the story" by focusing on the original blessing of being made in God's image rather than narratives of curse and shame.
What would change in your spiritual life if you embraced Mary Magdalene as your spiritual ancestor rather than a "fallen" Eve? Listen and discover how resurrection stories can transform your relationship with sacred texts and spiritual authority.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello Heather Drake.
Good afternoon to you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Hello Shelley Shepard , I'm excited to talk with you
today.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh, I, know you are, I know you are, I can see it on
your face.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm already wound up.
It's a great topic and so again, it's Eastertide for us, when
we're making this particularpodcast recording, and that's
already a joyous time.
But then you asked a questionthe other day.
You're like, what's up with eve?
And we started talking aboutmary magdalene and eve and there
was a lot of good conversationbut also good questions, and so
(00:52):
we thought we're gonna podcastabout this, we're gonna expand
our views about this and we'regonna pull back the curtain and
ask a question is this reallyhow it started?
Is this really the story?
Is there another way?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, I love that we are interrogating the text here
in this podcast, particularlybecause it has been such a wow I
don't even know if I would callit a bandwidth but the
(01:30):
foundation of the world, thestory of creation for many
people, has Eve at the apex ofthat story, delivering some
things into the world thatperhaps you and I accepted
willingly at a very young age.
(01:51):
I would love for you to tellthe flannel graph story at some
point in this podcast, becauseit was just rich and it gets to
show you a little bit about whoI am, and you were talking about
that too.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Like maybe we should tell a little bit about who I am
, and you were talking aboutthat too.
Like maybe we should tell alittle bit of our stories for
listeners who are there going?
Why does it matter?
That was just one off the topof my head, shelley.
I'm sure that if we spent timedigging up those stories we
could actually tell somemarvelous ones.
But one of the things that youand I were talking about was
about Mary Magdalene in thegarden, this beautiful person
(02:27):
who is an apostle to theapostles, who is first
commissioned by the resurrectedChrist to go and give the good
news.
Tell, tell, tell, tell aboutthis.
And so I look at the storyagain.
In John's gospel in particular,there is like this retelling of
the Genesis story.
I mean, that's kind ofeverything that John does.
(02:49):
And so when John's version isalso retelling of the garden
story, the story that happenedin the garden, the story where a
woman waits for God, and Ithink this is such a beautiful
retelling of the story of Eve,and so that's how you and I kind
of started on this conversation.
But we have you and I have bothheard the story of the Genesis
(03:14):
creation account.
Since we were tiny girls.
This was handed to us by Sundayschool teachers, by our mothers
, by our aunts, by cousins, inall of the things.
Here was your template forbeing a woman, here is how women
came into the world and here ishow you are now, and here are
(03:37):
the pains and the shackles andthe terror that you will be
scripted with because you are awoman.
And so we looked at that and,in passing, the other day, when
we were talking about it, I said, oh, you know, I believe in Eve
, but I looked at something, atmyself, and I have always loved
(03:58):
stories and I have consideredmyself a storyteller since I was
very little.
I would tell myself stories, Iwould make my brother listen to
my stories, but I haveessentially, I think, been a
preacher since I was a tinyperson.
But one of the things that Inoticed about myself was I would
claim a better way.
Perhaps it was childhoodarrogance, I don't know.
(04:19):
I think maybe it was the HolySpirit.
I think I have been hearing theSpirit tell a different story
since I was tiny, but I rememberone particular time.
We were in Sunday school classand the teacher was explaining
the story, and then next weekshe was saying that she was
going to tell the story of Mary,and we had the flannel graphs
(04:42):
and these were huge, likedividing room wall type of
flannel graphs.
So we're not talking about a 12by 12.
We're talking about enormousone.
And then she said the girl thatshe would appoint to tell the
story of Mary, and that justmeant the teacher told the story
, and then you were the personwho was putting the little
picture up so that the childrencould watch this.
(05:03):
Now, remember, this would havebeen in the early 1970s, so
flannel graphs were amazing andso it certainly wouldn't fly in
today's world.
But this was a big deal.
And when she announced thisgirl's name, that who would be
telling the story, I thought tomyself I can't let that happen.
And I didn't say anythingbecause it was no use to talk
(05:23):
with this teacher.
I knew already that she didn'tcount my opinion as valid when
who should be telling the story.
But as people were puttingthings away, I took Mary, the
little flannel graph of Mary,and I slipped her into my purse
because I didn't want her beingtold in a way that I felt like
was less than I knew how thisgirl would tell it and I was
(05:44):
protecting Mary.
So I took Mary, I claimed heras my own and I slipped her into
my little white patent leatherpurse and she disappeared.
And so the next week when wewere all there, no one knew
where Mary was, so we couldn'ttell that part of the story.
The following week, when it wasmy turn to tell it, mary showed
up so we could go back around,and I feel like I have been
(06:04):
doing that my whole life.
Somehow I have been saying I'mgoing to claim that story here
and I'm going to tell it better.
I'm going to tell it with atwist, I'm going to see it with
a slant.
Here is a better story and I'minviting all of us today to
consider maybe taking away theflannel graph Mary's and saying
(06:26):
I wonder if we told it better.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
That is such a beautiful story of divine
intervention, in my opinion, howyou just casually walked out
with Mary Magdalene in yourpurse.
And look at you, you're stillwalking around with Mary
Magdalene now in your heart, inyour body, still walking around
with Mary Magdalene now in yourheart, in your body, in your
spirit.
And one of the reasons I lovethat story is, you know, and
(06:52):
some people could say, well,it's just a story, it's her
childhood experience of thatmoment.
Is this deeper, knowing thatyou had within your bones that
(07:13):
Mary Magdalene has a place inthis story, even though there
are only 14 scripturalreferences given to her in the
entire Second Testament thatgive us insight into this
mystery and magic of MaryMagdalene.
And so you putting her in yourpurse, I think, was a precursor
(07:34):
to you delivering her To how Iwas going to live my life.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yes, I would take her from the hands of you didn't
take things, yes, keep her fromthe hands of untrained women to
tell the story, and I think thatthe invitation is for all of us
to be better storytellers.
I think this is how weco-create with the Spirit.
This has been the invitationsince the very beginning, since
(07:59):
the Spirit was hovering over thewaters.
Spirit was hovering over thewaters when we look at Mary and
we look at Eve and we look atour place in what God is doing
or, hopefully, the hope in whatthe Spirit is up to, even as we
look around at the world, to beable to practice and be able to
say God is still love and what Isee happening is not the will
(08:20):
of God For us to all be able togo.
How do we allow ourselves toascend in our thoughts and to be
able to read the scripture orlisten to the witness of
testimony, or to listen to howthe story is being told and do
it with authenticity in thenature of God, who describes
(08:43):
God's self as love?
And so I love the idea of goingback to Genesis and saying what
does it look like for us toremember when people are told
that you are woman, that you aremade in the image of God and
God says it is very good.
This is the end of the story.
(09:03):
You know, like this is as faras we got with the truth.
Now, afterwards, there were lotsof things, lots of speculations
.
There's lots of things thatwere handed to us as women.
You know, now you'll have forthe rest of time you'll have,
pain in childbirth.
Well, that feels like an unjustpunishment, I'm just telling
you.
And there's so many things thathave been a part of our culture
(09:25):
, gifted to us as women.
You know, just even a part ofeven a monthly menstrual cycle.
People will be like that's thecurse of Eve, like really it's
not.
It's a beautiful way that ourbody makes you know and gives us
the ability to create life, andwe are magic and wonder and
(09:46):
beautyment.
And we forgot that becausesomeone told us to focus on the
wrong part of the story.
And so I think the invitation isor I'm hoping the invitation is
for all of us to go deep withinourselves and to hear the
Spirit tell us a much betterstory than the one that we begin
.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yes, that is the hope , and I think for myself,
growing up in the church I wasthinking about this, maybe out
loud with you a few weeks ago isEve.
Eve was positioned in mygrowing up as a woman.
(10:28):
We talked about Eve more thanany other woman in scripture
Like.
Eve was the model right, andevery woman in scripture that
came after Eve, almost all theother women that came after in
the biblical story, um, weresomehow connected to Eve, our
(10:52):
mother, and so that threadbecame things like Lot's wife
turned into a pillar of salt.
You know that thread became um,someone like Mary Magdalene,
having seven demons instead ofbeing recognized to having these
seven powers that Jesus saw inher.
(11:15):
And so when the beginning ofthe story is the curse instead
of the blessing or instead ofwisdom, like she reached for
wisdom so that she could giveevery other female the
understanding of what wisdomlooked like, we were given the
story that she gave every otherwoman that followed her.
(11:39):
You know this laborious processof childbearing and I think for
me I don't know, maybe that'swhy I never had children,
heather it just was like wow,the story of Eve was just so
overwhelming to me and maybethey intended that Maybe they
(12:03):
wanted us to understand as girlsand young adults and young
women and then wives, that thisis your place, this is where you
stand, this is what you causedand because of that, xyz, you're
not allowed to be here, you'renot allowed to lead, you're not
(12:25):
allowed to offer communion,you're not allowed to speak in a
room where it's all men, like.
All of these things seem to beconnected to that root and I
think today if we could severthat root somehow in this
conversation, if we could takean ax to that particular tree
(12:49):
and just kind of lay it down andgive it a formal burial in our
minds and in our practices andlook towards post-resurrection
with Mary Magdalene.
And what Jesus was trying toget everybody to see was I'm not
here to talk about sin, jesussaid.
(13:11):
I'm here to talk about life andto give it more abundantly.
And I'm going to talk with Maryabout this.
I'm talking with Mary Magdaleneabout it and I think Mary
understood it.
You and I believe Maryunderstood this conversation,
this relationship between themthat ultimately led to her being
(13:34):
the first at the tomb and thefirst to go and tell.
That is a powerful new creationstory, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Lori Beth Jones told us to make the beautiful the
story.
Yes, lori Beth Jones told us tomake the beautiful the story,
and I think that that has beenan endeavor, although not with
that direct kind of very clear,very clarion call make the
beautiful the story.
But I think that's what Jesuswas saying, even to the
disciples, when he said everytime my story is told, her story
(14:09):
will be told as a memorial toher.
This is not a memorial to me,although what she was doing was
for the love for Christ, but hesaid this is going to be a
memorial for her and for me.
The idea of a memorial is thisalso invitation?
Come this way.
Is this also invitation?
Come this way, follow this.
(14:30):
And there is a hope for us inrecognizing the beauty, in
retelling the story.
And Jesus said this then, asMary meets him in the garden, go
and tell the others, tell them.
And then she says I have seenthe Lord, yes, and that to me,
(14:51):
is so incredibly powerful,especially during this season of
Eastertide.
But this idea of resurrection,of a new life and I am of the
firm belief, as are you, thatJesus was about life, was about
freedom, was about love.
(15:12):
In fact, jesus said I've come,that you would have life and
have it to the fullest.
And so not just for the freedomfor women, but for the freedom
of all people, in releasingwomen from our part in a story
that doesn't fit us and that isnot even a story worth repeating
(15:33):
, I think so often we tellstories that are again should
just be forgotten.
Let's tell a better story.
Let's all of us listen to thestory within us that inspires,
that says to us how can we lovethe world better?
That says to us how can we lovethe world better?
(15:55):
How can we allow an illusion ofseparation that we know is sin?
How can that be the story?
That can't be the story.
Again, let's talk about whattruth is.
Jesus said I am truth, thisfull Christ consciousness that
comes to us and be able to saythe way of Jesus is a way to God
.
And then I also see Mary and Isay Jesus says to her follow
(16:18):
like this person, listen to whatshe's saying.
And Mary says I've seen theLord.
So how do we tell our ownstories of how we've seen the
Lord?
You know, jesus didn't giveMary Magdalene a script and say
say these specific words.
You tell it.
And so the invitation to us isto tell how we have seen a
(16:39):
resurrection, and what thisresurrection requires of us is
forgiveness.
Forgiveness for the old stories, forgiveness for the
confinement that people offeredto us and feeling like they were
keeping us safe, or fromsomething I love again in the
way of Mary.
She's breaking open jars and Ithink there has got to be some
(17:02):
places where we just break openthe goodness, let the beauty
seep out everywhere.
I mean, let it get into thecracks in the floor, let all of
the goodness out.
And I think very often what hasbeen given to us as women is
keep it all together, like makesure that this bottle looks like
everyone else's bottle.
And I'm like there is fragrancein us that is so unique and so
(17:27):
beautiful.
It needs to be offered in theworld.
And I think the way of Mary andalso the way of Eve is breaking.
It is in the choosing of thefruit, it is in breaking the
jargon.
It all gets out.
And I think that goodness andthat understanding and that hope
, I think that at least I'mhopeful that in telling these
(17:51):
stories we will inspire peopleto go.
This story is bigger than weeven thought, that there is more
hope, there is more love, thereis more creativity.
There is more joy than any ofus could possibly use up.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
we are that you've joined us.
(18:11):
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
And I think it's an intentional posture.
It's an intentional step tomove away from a story of shame
that was once positioned to meas wow, you better do right and
follow this or you're going toend up in a really bad place.
You're going to end up like Eve.
(18:48):
You're going to end up in areally bad place.
You're going to end up like Eve.
We're going to cast you out ofthe church or the garden or the
family for crying out loud.
You know how many peoplestruggle with being even cast
out of their own family.
Can you imagine this notionthat God would just cast people
(19:13):
to the side, you know, turn themaway.
That whole theology andthinking is just.
It doesn't make what'sbeautiful the story.
And so one of the things that Inoticed this past weekend on
(19:36):
Saturday, I was walking along ashoreline and of course it was
Holy Saturday, right Rightbefore Easter, and I had taken
some intentional time torecognize what Mary Magdalene
might have been feeling on theday after the crucifixion.
And as I walked the shorelineand intentionally felt like I
(20:00):
was communicating with her, Irealized that the story of Eve
was easily transferred to thestory of Mary Magdalene.
And in that moment did MaryMagdalene become the new Eve for
(20:21):
me?
Perhaps, maybe, but I thinkthis greater understanding of
the absence that she felt fromher beloved friend Jesus was a
profound visual that I had notfelt before.
In all the ways that I haveread about or heard about or
(20:44):
understood Mary Magdalene, itwas just this profound loss and
absence.
And then it moved me tounderstand that this
relationship that Jesus wantswith us has very little to do
with the cross, has very littleto do with heaven or hell, and
(21:07):
has everything to do withunderstanding that we have never
been separated from God's love.
And it was just this powerful,powerful moment.
And maybe I needed that thatday, obviously needed that that
(21:37):
day, obviously.
But, heather, I was just somoved by these two bookends of
Eve and Mary Magdalene, and nowJesus pouring into Mary
Magdalene this new idea of a newcreation, a new way of being in
the world, because of thisexpansive love that she had
demonstrated with Jesus while hewas with her.
(22:00):
It was just a profound shiftthat I could easily say okay, I
don't believe the Eve storyanymore.
What I just experienced rightthere moved Eve somewhere to
this moment with Mary Magdaleneas well.
(22:22):
This is divine.
This is divine connection.
This is where my heart is, andso maybe we believe in things
that we don't believe anymore.
Something shifts, somethingchanges, something's altered in
the way that we have limitedwe've pretty much limited God in
(22:56):
ways that we believe.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
The invitation into belief, I think, is a beautiful,
hopeful, inspiring path, but Ithink very quickly it is offered
to us in ways that choke us andconfine us and limit us.
And so I think that changing oroffering to change, an
(23:22):
invitation to the Holy Spiritanyway to say allow my mind to
change.
In fact, this is what Jesusoffered to us a life of
repentance meaning change mymind.
I changed my mind aboutsomething.
Marks of maturity that I nolonger think the same way.
Tell us that we have moved outof childhood and into a further
maturity but we talked aboutthis last night in a
(23:42):
conversation that we have movedout of childhood and into a
further maturity, but we talkedabout this last night in a
conversation that we had.
Somehow, people have alsothought that once you are an
adult, you have already made upyour mind about everything and
you should hold fast to ideas orstories that you were given one
time On a regular basis.
I think that we should bewrestling with concepts and
(24:05):
ideas and stories and makingthem livable and good and holy
and something that can beoffered at the table of the Lord
.
Jesus was very much about atable.
In fact, right around thisresurrection event, there is a
table before the meal and wehave looked at this.
(24:27):
Dinah Butler-Bast does abeautiful job of reminding us
that the table is always whatJesus was about, and when we sit
around the table and we eatdelicious food and we feel
nourished and we've taken offour masks and our hunger has
brought us there and we've beensatiated, it ends up.
It always ends up.
We tell stories, and the storiesabout where we've been and
(24:50):
where we're going matter.
They matter to the world aroundus, they matter to the
collective consciousness aroundus, they matter to how we view
the world and how we go out andmove among the world, that we
remember that we're all fed atthe table of the Lord, every
single one of us.
There is goodness, that thereis abundance, that it is heaped
up.
(25:10):
Jesus told us the story of theshepherd who goes after the
sheep, of the woman who looks ata coin and a father who does
not stop looking after the sonand the son who stays and the
son who leaves.
The father is still watching,and that's a very different
story than the Genesis storythat says out of here, you've
(25:35):
screwed up, out of here.
And so the invitation then is aloving parent who ever wants us
to come home and join the partyis inviting us to tell a
different part of the story,emerging spirituality, but also
(26:04):
in an engaging, healthy,life-giving, something that we
can offer the rest of the world.
There is hope because of thisnew story.
There is grace because Maryshowed us the way.
(26:28):
There is an invitation to pourout the fragrance of our own
lives unique, heady withintoxication of a joy and a love
that's to be offered toeveryone.
And to be able to say webrought it ourselves to be able
to have told the story, to beable to have used our holy
imagination and say what is loveup to in the world?
And what does it mean for me topractice a resurrection life?
I love the idea of resurrectionbeing for those who grieve, and
(26:50):
I think many of us,particularly as women, have
grief in our life that we areregularly dealing with,
regularly aware of, regularlywitnessing.
And this power of telling adifferent story, telling a
better story, asking for anotherway, invites us into more.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I wonder, maybe just for a few minutes, if we could
think and maybe just talk outloud.
We're just having aconversation anyhow, but the few
(27:36):
references that are given inScripture to the resurrection
story of Mary Magdalenerecognizing Jesus as the
gardener and then Jesus callingher woman, these two references
that some scholars andtheologians have pointed to as
Mary Magdalene as the new Eve,are those strong enough hooks
(27:59):
for you in your spiritual lifeto say, wow, this is a different
story.
I can hang my hat on thesehooks for a good long time,
whereas others might talk thosepoints down or put them in the
basement and put the flannelgraph away so that story cannot
(28:22):
be retold.
But just for you know, maybejust for us in this conversation
, is that enough to hang our?
Are those two hooks enough forus?
For you, is it enough for you?
It's plenty for me, yes.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
It's enough for me in this way, because I think the
umbilical cord for me, thelifeline for me, is love, that
it is easy to see how love wouldinvite us to change our
position in how we view things.
(29:07):
I mean, if this entire storywas set on a stage, we would
maybe focus on one particularperson playing a part, but if we
moved to another part of thestage or if a light was shown on
another part, then that couldbe the focus, and I think the
invitation is to again, to useEugene Peterson's words tell it
(29:34):
with a slant, to go in storiesthat do not serve us.
Let's look for a better way totell the story that God intended
to have relationship with us.
Oh, that's so beautiful.
We're made in the image.
We're created for fellowship.
We're created for divinefriendship, and when God saw
(30:02):
women, he said it was very good.
That's the only part of thestory that we need to really
hold on to, and I think lovetells us that, that it's very
good.
This is the whole story, not theaccounting of how someone
thought that.
(30:22):
Now I mean, why do we have tocome up with a story of why
weeds are, why there are thornsthere just are?
Move on to another part of thestory.
I think that there have beenthings that people have handed
us and said no, you really haveto understand this, do you?
Not to live a full and heavylife, not to enjoy and savor the
(30:44):
richness and the goodness thatis all around us, not to believe
that there is abundance.
I think that if we're notmindful, scarcity and lack and
bad storytelling will cause usto retreat from the yeah.
Oh well, you went there now,didn't you?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Yeah, I did, I did yes yes, yes.
Mystery is a beautiful hope.
I just I think.
My hope is that and I want toget this quote right that Pope
Francis said of Mary Magdalenehe called her the apostle of the
(31:33):
new and greatest hope, and thatis what I believe she is today
for many people.
I believe she is today for manypeople so in 2016, he made her
feast day official in theCatholic Church.
But our new and greatest hopeis Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Well, can we talk?
About that for a quick second,because it can't be new.
(32:23):
She's been already gone a longtime, so I think a resurrecting
yes, yes, a new in remembering adifferent way, a new in holding
the spirit, the magic where ithas been meant to be buried, now
to be so.
I just want to say this is notnew and fandangled.
What you and I are talkingabout this is a remembering,
this is an uncovering of a truthor a hope that has been
intentionally buried, and sowe're returning, and that is the
way of Mary Magdalene return tolove as fast as you can, return
, return, return.
Remember who you are, rememberwhose you are, remember of what
(32:46):
stuff you are made, of Belovedswe are made of God, and so this
invitation into remembering, Ithink this is the elixir that
the whole world needs right now.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, I felt that when I read it, I felt it in my
bones, this new and greatesthope along with you, not in the
(33:20):
sense of, oh, this is makewhat's beautiful the story.
Let's now make this transitionfrom this story of shame to this
story of love.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I have a lot of boys, and not just the boys, but I
have a whole gaggle of nerds inmy house and I adore them and
they have specific nerd storiesand one of them is from Star
Wars and it is called the NewHope, and it is this resistance
and it is this intergalacticfight against the Empire, and to
(34:01):
me sometimes it is soincredibly relevant.
But this is our new hope.
It is the fight against empirewho intends to bury the goodness
, that intends to bury the power, that intends to bury the image
that is given to us by ourmaker, and it's an image that is
given to us by our Maker, andit's an image that intends to
(34:25):
keep us in an illusion ofseparation and that, you know,
Jesus prays for us and says makethem one, Make them one like
you and I are one, and let themsee.
And so this is an invitation toreally see, and you know what?
Speaker 2 (34:40):
And so this is an invitation to really see, and
you know what I'm going toexpand that and say that Mary
Magdalene prays for us as welland says I believe that Make us
one like you, and I are one.
Yeah, what a beautifulinvitation.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Thank you.
Thank you for this conversationand for this opportunity to put
our thoughts out into theuniverse about Mary, magdalene
and Eve.
Look like to have spirit retellthe story, to have spirit
ignite our holy imagination andfor us to allow thoughts to lift
(35:32):
us from places where we feelstuck and give us an invitation
to co-create the new world, thebetter kingdom, the kingdom that
is so close, it can't beobserved with our eyes, but it's
right in our mouths.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
(35:53):
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello Heather Drake.
Good afternoon to you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Hello Shelley Shepard , I'm excited to talk with you
today.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh, I, know you are, I know you are, I can see it on
your face.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm already wound up.
It's a great topic and so again, it's Eastertide for us, when
we're making this particularpodcast recording, and that's
already a joyous time.
But then you asked a questionthe other day.
You're like, what's up with eve?
And we started talking aboutmary magdalene and eve and there
was a lot of good conversationbut also good questions, and so
(00:52):
we thought we're gonna podcastabout this, we're gonna expand
our views about this and we'regonna pull back the curtain and
ask a question is this reallyhow it started?
Is this really the story?
Is there another way?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, I love that we are interrogating the text here
in this podcast, particularlybecause it has been such a wow I
don't even know if I would callit a bandwidth but the
(01:30):
foundation of the world, thestory of creation for many
people, has Eve at the apex ofthat story, delivering some
things into the world thatperhaps you and I accepted
willingly at a very young age.
(01:51):
I would love for you to tellthe flannel graph story at some
point in this podcast, becauseit was just rich and it gets to
show you a little bit about whoI am, and you were talking about
that too.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Like maybe we should tell a little bit about who I am
, and you were talking aboutthat too.
Like maybe we should tell alittle bit of our stories for
listeners who are there going?
Why does it matter?
That was just one off the topof my head, shelley.
I'm sure that if we spent timedigging up those stories we
could actually tell somemarvelous ones.
But one of the things that youand I were talking about was
about Mary Magdalene in thegarden, this beautiful person
(02:27):
who is an apostle to theapostles, who is first
commissioned by the resurrectedChrist to go and give the good
news.
Tell, tell, tell, tell aboutthis.
And so I look at the storyagain.
In John's gospel in particular,there is like this retelling of
the Genesis story.
I mean, that's kind ofeverything that John does.
(02:49):
And so when John's version isalso retelling of the garden
story, the story that happenedin the garden, the story where a
woman waits for God, and Ithink this is such a beautiful
retelling of the story of Eve,and so that's how you and I kind
of started on this conversation.
But we have you and I have bothheard the story of the Genesis
(03:14):
creation account.
Since we were tiny girls.
This was handed to us by Sundayschool teachers, by our mothers
, by our aunts, by cousins, inall of the things.
Here was your template forbeing a woman, here is how women
came into the world and here ishow you are now, and here are
(03:37):
the pains and the shackles andthe terror that you will be
scripted with because you are awoman.
And so we looked at that and,in passing, the other day, when
we were talking about it, I said, oh, you know, I believe in Eve
, but I looked at something, atmyself, and I have always loved
(03:58):
stories and I have consideredmyself a storyteller since I was
very little.
I would tell myself stories, Iwould make my brother listen to
my stories, but I haveessentially, I think, been a
preacher since I was a tinyperson.
But one of the things that Inoticed about myself was I would
claim a better way.
Perhaps it was childhoodarrogance, I don't know.
(04:19):
I think maybe it was the HolySpirit.
I think I have been hearing theSpirit tell a different story
since I was tiny, but I rememberone particular time.
We were in Sunday school classand the teacher was explaining
the story, and then next weekshe was saying that she was
going to tell the story of Mary,and we had the flannel graphs
(04:42):
and these were huge, likedividing room wall type of
flannel graphs.
So we're not talking about a 12by 12.
We're talking about enormousone.
And then she said the girl thatshe would appoint to tell the
story of Mary, and that justmeant the teacher told the story
, and then you were the personwho was putting the little
picture up so that the childrencould watch this.
(05:03):
Now, remember, this would havebeen in the early 1970s, so
flannel graphs were amazing andso it certainly wouldn't fly in
today's world.
But this was a big deal.
And when she announced thisgirl's name, that who would be
telling the story, I thought tomyself I can't let that happen.
And I didn't say anythingbecause it was no use to talk
(05:23):
with this teacher.
I knew already that she didn'tcount my opinion as valid when
who should be telling the story.
But as people were puttingthings away, I took Mary, the
little flannel graph of Mary,and I slipped her into my purse
because I didn't want her beingtold in a way that I felt like
was less than I knew how thisgirl would tell it and I was
(05:44):
protecting Mary.
So I took Mary, I claimed heras my own and I slipped her into
my little white patent leatherpurse and she disappeared.
And so the next week when wewere all there, no one knew
where Mary was, so we couldn'ttell that part of the story.
The following week, when it wasmy turn to tell it, mary showed
up so we could go back around,and I feel like I have been
(06:04):
doing that my whole life.
Somehow I have been saying I'mgoing to claim that story here
and I'm going to tell it better.
I'm going to tell it with atwist, I'm going to see it with
a slant.
Here is a better story and I'minviting all of us today to
consider maybe taking away theflannel graph Mary's and saying
(06:26):
I wonder if we told it better.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
That is such a beautiful story of divine
intervention, in my opinion, howyou just casually walked out
with Mary Magdalene in yourpurse.
And look at you, you're stillwalking around with Mary
Magdalene now in your heart, inyour body, still walking around
with Mary Magdalene now in yourheart, in your body, in your
spirit.
And one of the reasons I lovethat story is, you know, and
(06:52):
some people could say, well,it's just a story, it's her
childhood experience of thatmoment.
Is this deeper, knowing thatyou had within your bones that
(07:13):
Mary Magdalene has a place inthis story, even though there
are only 14 scripturalreferences given to her in the
entire Second Testament thatgive us insight into this
mystery and magic of MaryMagdalene.
And so you putting her in yourpurse, I think, was a precursor
(07:34):
to you delivering her To how Iwas going to live my life.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yes, I would take her from the hands of you didn't
take things, yes, keep her fromthe hands of untrained women to
tell the story, and I think thatthe invitation is for all of us
to be better storytellers.
I think this is how weco-create with the Spirit.
This has been the invitationsince the very beginning, since
(07:59):
the Spirit was hovering over thewaters.
Spirit was hovering over thewaters when we look at Mary and
we look at Eve and we look atour place in what God is doing
or, hopefully, the hope in whatthe Spirit is up to, even as we
look around at the world, to beable to practice and be able to
say God is still love and what Isee happening is not the will
(08:20):
of God For us to all be able togo.
How do we allow ourselves toascend in our thoughts and to be
able to read the scripture orlisten to the witness of
testimony, or to listen to howthe story is being told and do
it with authenticity in thenature of God, who describes
(08:43):
God's self as love?
And so I love the idea of goingback to Genesis and saying what
does it look like for us toremember when people are told
that you are woman, that you aremade in the image of God and
God says it is very good.
This is the end of the story.
(09:03):
You know, like this is as faras we got with the truth.
Now, afterwards, there were lotsof things, lots of speculations
.
There's lots of things thatwere handed to us as women.
You know, now you'll have forthe rest of time you'll have,
pain in childbirth.
Well, that feels like an unjustpunishment, I'm just telling
you.
And there's so many things thathave been a part of our culture
(09:25):
, gifted to us as women.
You know, just even a part ofeven a monthly menstrual cycle.
People will be like that's thecurse of Eve, like really it's
not.
It's a beautiful way that ourbody makes you know and gives us
the ability to create life, andwe are magic and wonder and
(09:46):
beautyment.
And we forgot that becausesomeone told us to focus on the
wrong part of the story.
And so I think the invitation isor I'm hoping the invitation is
for all of us to go deep withinourselves and to hear the
Spirit tell us a much betterstory than the one that we begin
.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yes, that is the hope , and I think for myself,
growing up in the church I wasthinking about this, maybe out
loud with you a few weeks ago isEve.
Eve was positioned in mygrowing up as a woman.
(10:28):
We talked about Eve more thanany other woman in scripture
Like.
Eve was the model right, andevery woman in scripture that
came after Eve, almost all theother women that came after in
the biblical story, um, weresomehow connected to Eve, our
(10:52):
mother, and so that threadbecame things like Lot's wife
turned into a pillar of salt.
You know that thread became um,someone like Mary Magdalene,
having seven demons instead ofbeing recognized to having these
seven powers that Jesus saw inher.
(11:15):
And so when the beginning ofthe story is the curse instead
of the blessing or instead ofwisdom, like she reached for
wisdom so that she could giveevery other female the
understanding of what wisdomlooked like, we were given the
story that she gave every otherwoman that followed her.
(11:39):
You know this laborious processof childbearing and I think for
me I don't know, maybe that'swhy I never had children,
heather it just was like wow,the story of Eve was just so
overwhelming to me and maybethey intended that Maybe they
(12:03):
wanted us to understand as girlsand young adults and young
women and then wives, that thisis your place, this is where you
stand, this is what you causedand because of that, xyz, you're
not allowed to be here, you'renot allowed to lead, you're not
(12:25):
allowed to offer communion,you're not allowed to speak in a
room where it's all men, like.
All of these things seem to beconnected to that root and I
think today if we could severthat root somehow in this
conversation, if we could takean ax to that particular tree
(12:49):
and just kind of lay it down andgive it a formal burial in our
minds and in our practices andlook towards post-resurrection
with Mary Magdalene.
And what Jesus was trying toget everybody to see was I'm not
here to talk about sin, jesussaid.
(13:11):
I'm here to talk about life andto give it more abundantly.
And I'm going to talk with Maryabout this.
I'm talking with Mary Magdaleneabout it and I think Mary
understood it.
You and I believe Maryunderstood this conversation,
this relationship between themthat ultimately led to her being
(13:34):
the first at the tomb and thefirst to go and tell.
That is a powerful new creationstory, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Lori Beth Jones told us to make the beautiful the
story.
Yes, lori Beth Jones told us tomake the beautiful the story,
and I think that that has beenan endeavor, although not with
that direct kind of very clear,very clarion call make the
beautiful the story.
But I think that's what Jesuswas saying, even to the
disciples, when he said everytime my story is told, her story
(14:09):
will be told as a memorial toher.
This is not a memorial to me,although what she was doing was
for the love for Christ, but hesaid this is going to be a
memorial for her and for me.
The idea of a memorial is thisalso invitation?
Come this way.
Is this also invitation?
Come this way, follow this.
(14:30):
And there is a hope for us inrecognizing the beauty, in
retelling the story.
And Jesus said this then, asMary meets him in the garden, go
and tell the others, tell them.
And then she says I have seenthe Lord, yes, and that to me,
(14:51):
is so incredibly powerful,especially during this season of
Eastertide.
But this idea of resurrection,of a new life and I am of the
firm belief, as are you, thatJesus was about life, was about
freedom, was about love.
(15:12):
In fact, jesus said I've come,that you would have life and
have it to the fullest.
And so not just for the freedomfor women, but for the freedom
of all people, in releasingwomen from our part in a story
that doesn't fit us and that isnot even a story worth repeating
(15:33):
, I think so often we tellstories that are again should
just be forgotten.
Let's tell a better story.
Let's all of us listen to thestory within us that inspires,
that says to us how can we lovethe world better?
That says to us how can we lovethe world better?
(15:55):
How can we allow an illusion ofseparation that we know is sin?
How can that be the story?
That can't be the story.
Again, let's talk about whattruth is.
Jesus said I am truth, thisfull Christ consciousness that
comes to us and be able to saythe way of Jesus is a way to God
.
And then I also see Mary and Isay Jesus says to her follow
(16:18):
like this person, listen to whatshe's saying.
And Mary says I've seen theLord.
So how do we tell our ownstories of how we've seen the
Lord?
You know, jesus didn't giveMary Magdalene a script and say
say these specific words.
You tell it.
And so the invitation to us isto tell how we have seen a
(16:39):
resurrection, and what thisresurrection requires of us is
forgiveness.
Forgiveness for the old stories, forgiveness for the
confinement that people offeredto us and feeling like they were
keeping us safe, or fromsomething I love again in the
way of Mary.
She's breaking open jars and Ithink there has got to be some
(17:02):
places where we just break openthe goodness, let the beauty
seep out everywhere.
I mean, let it get into thecracks in the floor, let all of
the goodness out.
And I think very often what hasbeen given to us as women is
keep it all together, like makesure that this bottle looks like
everyone else's bottle.
And I'm like there is fragrancein us that is so unique and so
(17:27):
beautiful.
It needs to be offered in theworld.
And I think the way of Mary andalso the way of Eve is breaking.
It is in the choosing of thefruit, it is in breaking the
jargon.
It all gets out.
And I think that goodness andthat understanding and that hope
, I think that at least I'mhopeful that in telling these
(17:51):
stories we will inspire peopleto go.
This story is bigger than weeven thought, that there is more
hope, there is more love, thereis more creativity.
There is more joy than any ofus could possibly use up.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
we are that you've joined us.
(18:11):
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
And I think it's an intentional posture.
It's an intentional step tomove away from a story of shame
that was once positioned to meas wow, you better do right and
follow this or you're going toend up in a really bad place.
You're going to end up like Eve.
(18:48):
You're going to end up in areally bad place.
You're going to end up like Eve.
We're going to cast you out ofthe church or the garden or the
family for crying out loud.
You know how many peoplestruggle with being even cast
out of their own family.
Can you imagine this notionthat God would just cast people
(19:13):
to the side, you know, turn themaway.
That whole theology andthinking is just.
It doesn't make what'sbeautiful the story.
And so one of the things that Inoticed this past weekend on
(19:36):
Saturday, I was walking along ashoreline and of course it was
Holy Saturday, right Rightbefore Easter, and I had taken
some intentional time torecognize what Mary Magdalene
might have been feeling on theday after the crucifixion.
And as I walked the shorelineand intentionally felt like I
(20:00):
was communicating with her, Irealized that the story of Eve
was easily transferred to thestory of Mary Magdalene.
And in that moment did MaryMagdalene become the new Eve for
(20:21):
me?
Perhaps, maybe, but I thinkthis greater understanding of
the absence that she felt fromher beloved friend Jesus was a
profound visual that I had notfelt before.
In all the ways that I haveread about or heard about or
(20:44):
understood Mary Magdalene, itwas just this profound loss and
absence.
And then it moved me tounderstand that this
relationship that Jesus wantswith us has very little to do
with the cross, has very littleto do with heaven or hell, and
(21:07):
has everything to do withunderstanding that we have never
been separated from God's love.
And it was just this powerful,powerful moment.
And maybe I needed that thatday, obviously needed that that
(21:37):
day, obviously.
But, heather, I was just somoved by these two bookends of
Eve and Mary Magdalene, and nowJesus pouring into Mary
Magdalene this new idea of a newcreation, a new way of being in
the world, because of thisexpansive love that she had
demonstrated with Jesus while hewas with her.
(22:00):
It was just a profound shiftthat I could easily say okay, I
don't believe the Eve storyanymore.
What I just experienced rightthere moved Eve somewhere to
this moment with Mary Magdaleneas well.
(22:22):
This is divine.
This is divine connection.
This is where my heart is, andso maybe we believe in things
that we don't believe anymore.
Something shifts, somethingchanges, something's altered in
the way that we have limitedwe've pretty much limited God in
(22:56):
ways that we believe.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
The invitation into belief, I think, is a beautiful,
hopeful, inspiring path, but Ithink very quickly it is offered
to us in ways that choke us andconfine us and limit us.
And so I think that changing oroffering to change, an
(23:22):
invitation to the Holy Spiritanyway to say allow my mind to
change.
In fact, this is what Jesusoffered to us a life of
repentance meaning change mymind.
I changed my mind aboutsomething.
Marks of maturity that I nolonger think the same way.
Tell us that we have moved outof childhood and into a further
maturity but we talked aboutthis last night in a
(23:42):
conversation that we have movedout of childhood and into a
further maturity, but we talkedabout this last night in a
conversation that we had.
Somehow, people have alsothought that once you are an
adult, you have already made upyour mind about everything and
you should hold fast to ideas orstories that you were given one
time On a regular basis.
I think that we should bewrestling with concepts and
(24:05):
ideas and stories and makingthem livable and good and holy
and something that can beoffered at the table of the Lord
.
Jesus was very much about atable.
In fact, right around thisresurrection event, there is a
table before the meal and wehave looked at this.
(24:27):
Dinah Butler-Bast does abeautiful job of reminding us
that the table is always whatJesus was about, and when we sit
around the table and we eatdelicious food and we feel
nourished and we've taken offour masks and our hunger has
brought us there and we've beensatiated, it ends up.
It always ends up.
We tell stories, and the storiesabout where we've been and
(24:50):
where we're going matter.
They matter to the world aroundus, they matter to the
collective consciousness aroundus, they matter to how we view
the world and how we go out andmove among the world, that we
remember that we're all fed atthe table of the Lord, every
single one of us.
There is goodness, that thereis abundance, that it is heaped
up.
(25:10):
Jesus told us the story of theshepherd who goes after the
sheep, of the woman who looks ata coin and a father who does
not stop looking after the sonand the son who stays and the
son who leaves.
The father is still watching,and that's a very different
story than the Genesis storythat says out of here, you've
(25:35):
screwed up, out of here.
And so the invitation then is aloving parent who ever wants us
to come home and join the partyis inviting us to tell a
different part of the story,emerging spirituality, but also
(26:04):
in an engaging, healthy,life-giving, something that we
can offer the rest of the world.
There is hope because of thisnew story.
There is grace because Maryshowed us the way.
(26:28):
There is an invitation to pourout the fragrance of our own
lives unique, heady withintoxication of a joy and a love
that's to be offered toeveryone.
And to be able to say webrought it ourselves to be able
to have told the story, to beable to have used our holy
imagination and say what is loveup to in the world?
And what does it mean for me topractice a resurrection life?
I love the idea of resurrectionbeing for those who grieve, and
(26:50):
I think many of us,particularly as women, have
grief in our life that we areregularly dealing with,
regularly aware of, regularlywitnessing.
And this power of telling adifferent story, telling a
better story, asking for anotherway, invites us into more.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I wonder, maybe just for a few minutes, if we could
think and maybe just talk outloud.
We're just having aconversation anyhow, but the few
(27:36):
references that are given inScripture to the resurrection
story of Mary Magdalenerecognizing Jesus as the
gardener and then Jesus callingher woman, these two references
that some scholars andtheologians have pointed to as
Mary Magdalene as the new Eve,are those strong enough hooks
(27:59):
for you in your spiritual lifeto say, wow, this is a different
story.
I can hang my hat on thesehooks for a good long time,
whereas others might talk thosepoints down or put them in the
basement and put the flannelgraph away so that story cannot
(28:22):
be retold.
But just for you know, maybejust for us in this conversation
, is that enough to hang our?
Are those two hooks enough forus?
For you, is it enough for you?
It's plenty for me, yes.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
It's enough for me in this way, because I think the
umbilical cord for me, thelifeline for me, is love, that
it is easy to see how love wouldinvite us to change our
position in how we view things.
(29:07):
I mean, if this entire storywas set on a stage, we would
maybe focus on one particularperson playing a part, but if we
moved to another part of thestage or if a light was shown on
another part, then that couldbe the focus, and I think the
invitation is to again, to useEugene Peterson's words tell it
(29:34):
with a slant, to go in storiesthat do not serve us.
Let's look for a better way totell the story that God intended
to have relationship with us.
Oh, that's so beautiful.
We're made in the image.
We're created for fellowship.
We're created for divinefriendship, and when God saw
(30:02):
women, he said it was very good.
That's the only part of thestory that we need to really
hold on to, and I think lovetells us that, that it's very
good.
This is the whole story, not theaccounting of how someone
thought that.
(30:22):
Now I mean, why do we have tocome up with a story of why
weeds are, why there are thornsthere just are?
Move on to another part of thestory.
I think that there have beenthings that people have handed
us and said no, you really haveto understand this, do you?
Not to live a full and heavylife, not to enjoy and savor the
(30:44):
richness and the goodness thatis all around us, not to believe
that there is abundance.
I think that if we're notmindful, scarcity and lack and
bad storytelling will cause usto retreat from the yeah.
Oh well, you went there now,didn't you?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Yeah, I did, I did yes yes, yes.
Mystery is a beautiful hope.
I just I think.
My hope is that and I want toget this quote right that Pope
Francis said of Mary Magdalenehe called her the apostle of the
(31:33):
new and greatest hope, and thatis what I believe she is today
for many people.
I believe she is today for manypeople so in 2016, he made her
feast day official in theCatholic Church.
But our new and greatest hopeis Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Well, can we talk?
About that for a quick second,because it can't be new.
(32:23):
She's been already gone a longtime, so I think a resurrecting
yes, yes, a new in remembering adifferent way, a new in holding
the spirit, the magic where ithas been meant to be buried, now
to be so.
I just want to say this is notnew and fandangled.
What you and I are talkingabout this is a remembering,
this is an uncovering of a truthor a hope that has been
intentionally buried, and sowe're returning, and that is the
way of Mary Magdalene return tolove as fast as you can, return
, return, return.
Remember who you are, rememberwhose you are, remember of what
(32:46):
stuff you are made, of Belovedswe are made of God, and so this
invitation into remembering, Ithink this is the elixir that
the whole world needs right now.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, I felt that when I read it, I felt it in my
bones, this new and greatesthope along with you, not in the
(33:20):
sense of, oh, this is makewhat's beautiful the story.
Let's now make this transitionfrom this story of shame to this
story of love.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I have a lot of boys, and not just the boys, but I
have a whole gaggle of nerds inmy house and I adore them and
they have specific nerd storiesand one of them is from Star
Wars and it is called the NewHope, and it is this resistance
and it is this intergalacticfight against the Empire, and to
(34:01):
me sometimes it is soincredibly relevant.
But this is our new hope.
It is the fight against empirewho intends to bury the goodness
, that intends to bury the power, that intends to bury the image
that is given to us by ourmaker, and it's an image that is
given to us by our Maker, andit's an image that intends to
(34:25):
keep us in an illusion ofseparation and that, you know,
Jesus prays for us and says makethem one, Make them one like
you and I are one, and let themsee.
And so this is an invitation toreally see, and you know what?
Speaker 2 (34:40):
And so this is an invitation to really see, and
you know what I'm going toexpand that and say that Mary
Magdalene prays for us as welland says I believe that Make us
one like you, and I are one.
Yeah, what a beautifulinvitation.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Thank you.
Thank you for this conversationand for this opportunity to put
our thoughts out into theuniverse about Mary, magdalene
and Eve.
Look like to have spirit retellthe story, to have spirit
ignite our holy imagination andfor us to allow thoughts to lift
(35:32):
us from places where we feelstuck and give us an invitation
to co-create the new world, thebetter kingdom, the kingdom that
is so close, it can't beobserved with our eyes, but it's
right in our mouths.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
(35:53):
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
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