July 10, 2025 • 26 mins
Could Mary Magdalene be a missing part of the Christ story? This question forms the heart of our exploration as we approach her feast day on July 22nd. While neither of us come from Catholic traditions, we recognize the profound wisdom in celebrating feast days that awaken our consciousness to spiritual truth—and Mary Magdalene holds truths too long overlooked.
Mary represents a pathway to transformation that embraces feminine wisdom and embodied spirituality. When the Gospel of Mary was discovered in Egypt in the 19th century, it revealed a woman who understood Christ's message so deeply that male disciples questioned how Jesus could have shared such mysteries with her. Yet Jesus himself declared that wherever his story was told, hers would be told alongside it—a commission we've collectively failed to honor for centuries.
What might Christianity look like if we restored Mary Magdalene to her rightful place? If Jesus is understood as the Second Adam in theological tradition, might Mary represent the Second Eve—not replacing Mary the mother of Jesus, but complementing our understanding of feminine spiritual presence? The evidence suggests she continued as an evangelist after the resurrection, particularly in France, spreading a message of embodied, Spirit-led devotion. Her understanding of anointing—exemplified when she recognized the significance of Jesus's approaching sacrifice—shows spiritual insight beyond what other disciples grasped. When we embrace her witness alongside Christ's, we discover a more complete spirituality that honors both masculine and feminine expressions of divine wisdom. Ready to explore the full story? Join us as we uncover what traditional narratives have too often left untold.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Good afternoon, heather Drake.
Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Shelley Shepard, it's so good to see you today.
I feel like it's been longerthan a week.
I know it's only been a weeksince I talked with you last
time, but yeah, it has been aweek with Mary for sure.
Already we are jumping intoJuly, knowing that on July 22nd
(00:46):
it is her feast day, and so youand I have just been talking
about how do we honor her, howdo we bring her front and center
during this month to peoplethat are listening, to people
that are listening, but alsomaybe to pull back the veil of
(01:09):
what she really means to us.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Let's talk for a second about the fact that
neither you or I are practicingCatholics or part of that
particular tradition, but thereare things that we are learning
from that tradition and even theidea of.
I know that many wisdomtraditions ask us to pay
attention to feasts, ask us topay attention to big
celebrations and what it canbring into our consciousness,
into our awareness, and sosaying something like a feast of
(01:42):
Mary Magdalene.
This is exciting for you and I,because we are consciously
heaping up, creating ideas,finding ways to celebrate,
(02:10):
bringing into our remembrancewho she was, who she is and how
our connection with her reallyis a pathway to transformation.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I like that you use the word pathway.
Can we jump there first andtalk a little bit about what we
mean by that?
Growing up in our own faithtraditions and being told that
there's only one way right, thatthere aren't many paths,
there's only one direct path toGod.
(02:46):
When we approach this space andthis opportunity to maybe peek
behind the curtain, between whatMary Magdalene was holding with
Jesus, there's something thatwe were not told, there's
(03:07):
something that we have not quitelearned, there's information
that was not written about her,and I wonder if, in the creating
of the text, in the creating ofthe stories, in the
inspiredness of that story,somebody got very zealous in how
(03:29):
they wanted us to hear thatstory and so, consequently, that
pathway, that entry point, thatthreshold, that knowing was
sidebarred, can we talk about?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
that I think it's essential too, that we also
recognize that where we areright now is in the season of
Pentecost, where we are veryaware of lady wisdom, where we
are very aware of the practiceof what does it look like for us
to live fully embodied, devotedlives, but following the
prompting of the Spirit,following the wisdom that the
(04:07):
Spirit reveals to us, followingleadings that are not fast and
written necessarily, but arefull of life and goodness.
And this invitation into Spirit,I think, leads us into a
beautiful witness of MaryMagdalene, who is full of the
(04:27):
spirit, and we see the worksthat she does.
We see again the faithfulwitness that she is as a
follower of the path of Jesus,that she begins to be a way for
us of going.
What does it look like for me,not only as a woman, but not
excluding my own womanhood,remembering the power that it is
(04:48):
in our feminine thinking, inour feminine way of relating to
the world, in our feminine glory, that we bring as part of the
image of God into the way thatwe worship, into the way that we
relate to the world.
And I think that payingattention to the way that Mary
did it is a beautiful again, apathway.
You could try this.
(05:09):
Pay attention here, find thisquiet place and remember what
you have forgotten about, whatit means to be a woman,
confident and absolutely in love.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So let me see if I'm tracking with you the same way.
So spirit is a path as well.
Is that what you're sayingright now?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Well, I mean, I think that you could say that, yes,
but I wouldn't exclude spirit inany of the paths, because I
don't know that we could find apath we're not spirit
illuminating it for us.
I think spirit needs to be onthe paths that, any of the ones
that lead to righteousness, anyof the ones that lead to
goodness, spirit has helped uson.
And again, I think spirit isabsolutely essential in all of
(05:52):
our awakening, in all of ourtrying to follow, in ways that
are deeply embodied, whole paths.
I think they all contain spirit.
I don't think we can get tothem without the revelation and
empowerment of the spirit.
So I think that you can meetthe spirit on many of those
(06:16):
paths I wouldn't say all,because I'm not sure they're all
headed in the same direction,not sure they're all headed in
the same direction.
But I find that spirit is soavailable that that attunement
to the living word, to theenergy that is all around us, to
God who is with us, to thatoneness, I think that's
(06:38):
available in all these things.
But I find that, looking atMary as a pathway to this
oneness, that leads to ultimatelove, that leads to transcendent
love, that leads to how wefollow, even beyond the grave,
how we follow, you know, intothe practice of resurrection and
(07:01):
ascension.
I think that she is a faithfulwitness and I think that I'm
sorry that her story hasn't beenlarger, yes, that more people
haven't heard, and so it's oneof the things that you and I are
going to do.
Then We'll tell this story.
In fact, lori Beth Jones toldus, make what's beautiful the
story, and so we are fullytaking that permission and that
(07:23):
charge and saying here is abeautiful part of the story that
maybe we haven't heard yet, ormaybe we heard but we forgot, or
maybe we have to be reminded ofthat.
There is a way to embrace ourown femininity, to embrace that
nurture and thatwholeheartedness, the tenderness
(07:45):
.
Oh, I just see that as such abeautiful path toward a
different relationship withourselves and the world when it
comes to following Jesus.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Mm-hmm.
So are we just seeing ourselvesin Mary Magdalene?
In Mary Magdalene?
Is that, when we peek behindthe curtain of this oneness that
she and Christ demonstrated,where sources have it that he
(08:19):
often greeted her with a kiss,and maybe he greeted lots of
women with a kiss.
That wasn't necessarilycaptured, but in my holy
imagination I can imagine thissort of thing.
But are we seeing ourselves?
(08:39):
Are we reaching all the wayback to the first human in our
own understanding, in our ownremembering, in our own knowing,
in our bones and saying, well,this moment of Mary Magdalene
and Jesus as companions on ajourney shifts everything that
(09:02):
I've ever understood and knownabout who Christ is.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Okay, so based on that particular question, I
bring to this thought that IfJesus is the second Adam, then
who is the second Eve?
Yep.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Good question.
If that is what we are lookingat going, it is not just men who
hold the image of God thatthere is this spectrum that is
needed for us to see therevelation, the light of Christ,
that there is a wide varietythat is needed to be able to say
(09:48):
this is how good and howbeautiful God is, then we need,
if we needed a second adam, weneed a second eve well, let's
tarry there for a second.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
You and I have both been educated that mary, the
mother of jesus, is the secondeve okay, so let's, let, let's
hold that.
That could be too sure, sure,yeah.
So for some people, you know,mary the mother of Jesus has
become an elevated path to Godor to Christ.
(10:22):
But imagine that your motherright is Mary, mary, mary, the
mother of Jesus, you're thesecond Adam.
I can't really make that fitwith what Jesus was trying to
(10:44):
deposit into the hands, into themind, into the heart, into the
spirit of Mary Magdalene.
Does that make sense, I think,in my holy imagination, as
they're walking along theshoreline.
I don't think fixing fish was aone-time experience.
Right, preparing fish, makingbreakfast.
(11:05):
I can imagine that, over andover and over, there was a catch
of the day and there was a mealand there was Mary Magdalene
and Jesus breaking that bread,sharing that meal and talking
about the things that Mary knew,that no one else knew.
(11:29):
He was enchanted by her, by herstory, maybe by her lineage,
maybe by her family, I'm notsure.
But in my holy imagination, ifthere's a bucket of fish being
prepared for the disciples asthey leave the boat, I can sure
(11:51):
as heck see a meal that Jesusand Mary Magdalene are having,
see a meal that Jesus and MaryMagdalene are having, and I
think this is the dance, this isthe divine dance, heather, that
we get to talk about, becausewe can hear about Peter walking
(12:17):
on the water.
We can hear about othercharacters, but for some reason,
when we begin to insert MaryMagdalene into that telling the
better story, the brakes go on.
I don't get it.
This just happened with me andmy mom, so this is why it's just
so fresh in my mind.
It's like the brakes go on.
(12:38):
It's like what are you doing?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Well, and to that I respond.
This is exactly what Jesus toldus to do.
Wherever my story will be told,her story will also be told
alongside of it, and so you andI have a lot of storytelling to
do, because we've got time tomake up, because people have
forgotten to tell her story, orpeople have forgotten to
(13:02):
illuminate the truth that sheknew, or the grace that she
embodied, or the love that shehad and the kindness that she
offered, not only to Jesus, butto the entire group of people
that were with him, that nurture, and again, all you'd have to
do is spend time thinking aboutwhat it would look like to stay
(13:23):
at the grave of someone that youloved.
That says so much about howdeeply she was connected to the
Christ.
And so that idea of, even whenhe comes back and says, you go
and tell, you go and tell, thereis something so intentionally
(13:44):
powerful about her particularwitness that is needed for us to
believe the power ofresurrection and the ascension
and I use those two words inconjunction, because it's not
just resurrection from death, itis ascension to God.
It is this ascended thought, itis this life of changing the
(14:05):
way that we think, having higherthoughts, having bigger
thoughts, having more expansivethoughts that allow us to join
our minds into the mind ofChrist.
In fact, one of the apostlestells us let this mind be that
in you that was also in ChristJesus.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
we are that you've joined us.
(14:26):
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
(14:48):
We are supposed to have a Christconsciousness, we are supposed
to have a bigger mind.
And how can we get that withoutthe power of the Holy Spirit,
without the Holy Spiritilluminating for us, without us
finding a path to be able to sayhow do I pay attention to the
present matter, to whatever isbefore me, and how do I sanctify
it?
How do I make it holy?
I look to the Mary Magdalenewho tells us that, before he
(15:08):
goes to death, she recognizesthese are the feet that are
going to be pierced and sheanoints them.
This is the body that will bebroken, and she brings healing
to it.
And so those are when I talkabout Mary as a path.
That's what I'm talking aboutPaying attention to the fact
that she had maybe empowered bythe Spirit, maybe through her
(15:30):
own learning, maybe through youknow, I can't even imagine all
the ways that she could come tothose knowledges but she
understood the power ofanointing and in that she took
the practical way of going.
I know this is what this is andwhen I bring it to the Christ,
I think this is where miracleshappen, and if we are going to
(15:52):
do greater works than the onesthat were recorded, then we need
to be busy about the thingsthat caused the miracles to
happen Clearly the Spirit.
But to be able to go, we don'tmaybe need a reproduction of
those exact miracles.
We need different miracles, butwe need miracles and we are
(16:13):
people who, as children of God,are entitled to miracles.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
There's a piece that is kind of stirring in me right
now that if you're reading astory to your child and only
half of the story is available,it might not have the impact
that the full story would have.
We also are holding thisinformation that this is truly
(16:43):
what happened in the life ofMary Magdalene is that a gospel
was written in her name.
She didn't write the gospel,somebody else wrote this, but
they wrote it down based on whatthey heard or what they
witnessed.
And then it was buried and lostand burned in a cave in Egypt
(17:09):
for a good long while 1800something it was rediscovered.
And so here you are as a parent, right, here's the story,
here's the rest of the storythat we get to unfurl and we get
to hold.
(17:29):
And, yeah, some of the story ismissing Water damaged, burnt,
non-translatable, all the issuesthat they've had with this
story in bringing it to us.
But here it is and it's beenhere for a while, A good long
while what?
40 or 50 years, I believe thetranslation.
(17:53):
And yet there's something aboutMary Magdalene that she not
only poured out, but sheexpanded it.
She didn't stop talking aboutJesus.
She most likely became anevangelist in Europe,
(18:19):
particularly in France,particularly in France, and so
if we forget her story and wedon't hold it or shape it or
expand that story, then we areleaving out.
I believe, half of the Jesusstory and that's why this is
(18:43):
important for us to have theseconversations is hmm, Jesus was
half of the story and MaryMagdalene was the other half of
the story.
I'm going to hold to that.
You can challenge me if youwant to, but I'm going to hold
to that.
(19:03):
Why would I challenge you?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Well, there's lots of reasons to challenge that, I'm
thinking but there's also a lotof joy in following that path
and going.
What would it look like and howmany people could that include
who didn't find themselvesreflected in any of the other
characters in that story, andhow many other people could go?
(19:26):
I could, I could relate to that, I could see myself in that, or
even not see yourself in thatand go, but I could see that as
beautiful and that is a path Iwould want to follow.
I could see that as holy, andso the invitation, I think, is
into a widening horizon, intosomething that is expansive, but
(19:53):
into something that is holy andsomething fully loving.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Oh, that's all the goodness, and I think the
purpose of that is ultimately, Ithink it's love.
I think what she poured waslove, right, yes, she poured it
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And she found ways, even with the brothers.
You know, when they cameagainst her in her moment of
explaining what Jesus had taughther out of the Gospel of Mary,
even in that moment she wept forthem.
(20:33):
She wept that they wouldconsider even to think that she
was making up something, thatshe was making up a story.
None of this was ever told.
Why would Jesus talk to a woman?
Well, crying out loud?
How many years had MaryMagdalene been traveling with
(21:00):
this band of brothers?
How many other women had beentraveling with this band of
brothers?
How many other women have beentraveling with this band of
brothers?
You know, it's not like she justall of a sudden appeared on the
scene and had some kind ofsecret sauce, you know, that
needed to be shared.
This is truly an engagingperception, and maybe even I
(21:24):
will say deception, that we werehanded half of the story and
now, particularly you and I arehere in this moment to say nay,
nay, no more, no more of thehalf story.
We want the full monty.
(21:45):
Give us the entire ocean.
We want to swim in that, wewant to taste it, we want to
know the anointing like marymagdalene knew it.
I just included.
You't ask permission.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I like it because I was thinking about that
anointing and how it isfull-bodied, how to anoint
something.
It's on your hands and it'llget in your nose and it'll get
on something else, and I justsee that's how goodness
transfers the goodness that wesee by evidence in the spirit
(22:27):
but then gets in our hands andwe're relieving people of
burdens and we're undoing, youknow, chains that bind people
and we.
This kind of anointing isbreaking yokes and this kind of
anointing is healing people.
And this kind of anointing isthat laying on of hands, that
co-laboring with people into thebettering of the world.
(22:49):
I see this as a practice, butalso as a path that, when we
talk about a relationship withGod or of spirituality that we
recognize this is an invitationinto learning how to live.
Yes, and I think the anointingis a way for us to remember,
when you see someone in pain,that we could ask the Spirit and
(23:18):
that we could be a part of thehealing of the anointing for the
whole world.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
This is how the kingdom comes, and maybe this is
a little bit of a diversionhere, but we were talking in the
pre-show about the situation inTexas and the loss and the
grief and the heartache thatbrothers and sisters that we
haven't even met areexperiencing.
(23:41):
I'm confident I didn't ask youthis, but I'm confident that
sometime over this weekend, thispast weekend that you grabbed
the anointing oil and that youanointed that situation and we
have been anointing people thatwe've never met.
(24:07):
But Spirit calls us to thisanointing to be something that
reaches beyond this humancondition, into a realm.
I believe that Mary knew.
(24:28):
I believe Mary knew the realmand the anointing poured through
her, and Jesus recognized thisand said wherever her story is
told, her name will beremembered.
Wherever my story is told, herstory will be told and she will
be remembered.
That's the path.
(24:52):
The ancient path, the expansivepath is to grab your bottle of
oil, anoint yourself, anointsomeone else and invite spirit,
even invite Mary Magdalene topray for us and with us.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I'm hopeful.
In closing, I want to read theMagdalene's Blessing from Jan
Richardson.
It's a favorite of ours.
You hardly imagined standinghere.
Everything you ever lovedsuddenly returned to you,
looking you in the eye andcalling your name.
And now you do not know how toabide this ache in the center of
(25:39):
your chest, where a door slamsshut and swings open at the same
time.
Turning on the hinge of youraching and hopeful heart, I tell
you this is not banishment fromthe garden.
This is an invitation, a choice, a threshold, a gate.
(26:01):
This is your life, calling toyou from a place that you could
have never dreamed.
But now that you have glimpsedits edge, you cannot imagine
choosing any other way.
So let the tears come asanointing as consecration, and
(26:21):
then let them go.
Let this blessing gather itselfaround you and let it give you
what you will need for thejourney.
You will not remember the words.
They do not matter.
All you need to remember is howit sounded when you stood in
the place of death and heard theliving call your name.
She's calling our name.
(26:42):
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionistheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Good afternoon, heather Drake.
Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Shelley Shepard, it's so good to see you today.
I feel like it's been longerthan a week.
I know it's only been a weeksince I talked with you last
time, but yeah, it has been aweek with Mary for sure.
Already we are jumping intoJuly, knowing that on July 22nd
(00:46):
it is her feast day, and so youand I have just been talking
about how do we honor her, howdo we bring her front and center
during this month to peoplethat are listening, to people
that are listening, but alsomaybe to pull back the veil of
(01:09):
what she really means to us.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Let's talk for a second about the fact that
neither you or I are practicingCatholics or part of that
particular tradition, but thereare things that we are learning
from that tradition and even theidea of.
I know that many wisdomtraditions ask us to pay
attention to feasts, ask us topay attention to big
celebrations and what it canbring into our consciousness,
into our awareness, and sosaying something like a feast of
(01:42):
Mary Magdalene.
This is exciting for you and I,because we are consciously
heaping up, creating ideas,finding ways to celebrate,
(02:10):
bringing into our remembrancewho she was, who she is and how
our connection with her reallyis a pathway to transformation.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I like that you use the word pathway.
Can we jump there first andtalk a little bit about what we
mean by that?
Growing up in our own faithtraditions and being told that
there's only one way right, thatthere aren't many paths,
there's only one direct path toGod.
(02:46):
When we approach this space andthis opportunity to maybe peek
behind the curtain, between whatMary Magdalene was holding with
Jesus, there's something thatwe were not told, there's
(03:07):
something that we have not quitelearned, there's information
that was not written about her,and I wonder if, in the creating
of the text, in the creating ofthe stories, in the
inspiredness of that story,somebody got very zealous in how
(03:29):
they wanted us to hear thatstory and so, consequently, that
pathway, that entry point, thatthreshold, that knowing was
sidebarred, can we talk about?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
that I think it's essential too, that we also
recognize that where we areright now is in the season of
Pentecost, where we are veryaware of lady wisdom, where we
are very aware of the practiceof what does it look like for us
to live fully embodied, devotedlives, but following the
prompting of the Spirit,following the wisdom that the
(04:07):
Spirit reveals to us, followingleadings that are not fast and
written necessarily, but arefull of life and goodness.
And this invitation into Spirit,I think, leads us into a
beautiful witness of MaryMagdalene, who is full of the
(04:27):
spirit, and we see the worksthat she does.
We see again the faithfulwitness that she is as a
follower of the path of Jesus,that she begins to be a way for
us of going.
What does it look like for me,not only as a woman, but not
excluding my own womanhood,remembering the power that it is
(04:48):
in our feminine thinking, inour feminine way of relating to
the world, in our feminine glory, that we bring as part of the
image of God into the way thatwe worship, into the way that we
relate to the world.
And I think that payingattention to the way that Mary
did it is a beautiful again, apathway.
You could try this.
(05:09):
Pay attention here, find thisquiet place and remember what
you have forgotten about, whatit means to be a woman,
confident and absolutely in love.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So let me see if I'm tracking with you the same way.
So spirit is a path as well.
Is that what you're sayingright now?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Well, I mean, I think that you could say that, yes,
but I wouldn't exclude spirit inany of the paths, because I
don't know that we could find apath we're not spirit
illuminating it for us.
I think spirit needs to be onthe paths that, any of the ones
that lead to righteousness, anyof the ones that lead to
goodness, spirit has helped uson.
And again, I think spirit isabsolutely essential in all of
(05:52):
our awakening, in all of ourtrying to follow, in ways that
are deeply embodied, whole paths.
I think they all contain spirit.
I don't think we can get tothem without the revelation and
empowerment of the spirit.
So I think that you can meetthe spirit on many of those
(06:16):
paths I wouldn't say all,because I'm not sure they're all
headed in the same direction,not sure they're all headed in
the same direction.
But I find that spirit is soavailable that that attunement
to the living word, to theenergy that is all around us, to
God who is with us, to thatoneness, I think that's
(06:38):
available in all these things.
But I find that, looking atMary as a pathway to this
oneness, that leads to ultimatelove, that leads to transcendent
love, that leads to how wefollow, even beyond the grave,
how we follow, you know, intothe practice of resurrection and
(07:01):
ascension.
I think that she is a faithfulwitness and I think that I'm
sorry that her story hasn't beenlarger, yes, that more people
haven't heard, and so it's oneof the things that you and I are
going to do.
Then We'll tell this story.
In fact, lori Beth Jones toldus, make what's beautiful the
story, and so we are fullytaking that permission and that
(07:23):
charge and saying here is abeautiful part of the story that
maybe we haven't heard yet, ormaybe we heard but we forgot, or
maybe we have to be reminded ofthat.
There is a way to embrace ourown femininity, to embrace that
nurture and thatwholeheartedness, the tenderness
(07:45):
.
Oh, I just see that as such abeautiful path toward a
different relationship withourselves and the world when it
comes to following Jesus.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Mm-hmm.
So are we just seeing ourselvesin Mary Magdalene?
In Mary Magdalene?
Is that, when we peek behindthe curtain of this oneness that
she and Christ demonstrated,where sources have it that he
(08:19):
often greeted her with a kiss,and maybe he greeted lots of
women with a kiss.
That wasn't necessarilycaptured, but in my holy
imagination I can imagine thissort of thing.
But are we seeing ourselves?
(08:39):
Are we reaching all the wayback to the first human in our
own understanding, in our ownremembering, in our own knowing,
in our bones and saying, well,this moment of Mary Magdalene
and Jesus as companions on ajourney shifts everything that
(09:02):
I've ever understood and knownabout who Christ is.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Okay, so based on that particular question, I
bring to this thought that IfJesus is the second Adam, then
who is the second Eve?
Yep.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Good question.
If that is what we are lookingat going, it is not just men who
hold the image of God thatthere is this spectrum that is
needed for us to see therevelation, the light of Christ,
that there is a wide varietythat is needed to be able to say
(09:48):
this is how good and howbeautiful God is, then we need,
if we needed a second adam, weneed a second eve well, let's
tarry there for a second.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
You and I have both been educated that mary, the
mother of jesus, is the secondeve okay, so let's, let, let's
hold that.
That could be too sure, sure,yeah.
So for some people, you know,mary the mother of Jesus has
become an elevated path to Godor to Christ.
(10:22):
But imagine that your motherright is Mary, mary, mary, the
mother of Jesus, you're thesecond Adam.
I can't really make that fitwith what Jesus was trying to
(10:44):
deposit into the hands, into themind, into the heart, into the
spirit of Mary Magdalene.
Does that make sense, I think,in my holy imagination, as
they're walking along theshoreline.
I don't think fixing fish was aone-time experience.
Right, preparing fish, makingbreakfast.
(11:05):
I can imagine that, over andover and over, there was a catch
of the day and there was a mealand there was Mary Magdalene
and Jesus breaking that bread,sharing that meal and talking
about the things that Mary knew,that no one else knew.
(11:29):
He was enchanted by her, by herstory, maybe by her lineage,
maybe by her family, I'm notsure.
But in my holy imagination, ifthere's a bucket of fish being
prepared for the disciples asthey leave the boat, I can sure
(11:51):
as heck see a meal that Jesusand Mary Magdalene are having,
see a meal that Jesus and MaryMagdalene are having, and I
think this is the dance, this isthe divine dance, heather, that
we get to talk about, becausewe can hear about Peter walking
(12:17):
on the water.
We can hear about othercharacters, but for some reason,
when we begin to insert MaryMagdalene into that telling the
better story, the brakes go on.
I don't get it.
This just happened with me andmy mom, so this is why it's just
so fresh in my mind.
It's like the brakes go on.
(12:38):
It's like what are you doing?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Well, and to that I respond.
This is exactly what Jesus toldus to do.
Wherever my story will be told,her story will also be told
alongside of it, and so you andI have a lot of storytelling to
do, because we've got time tomake up, because people have
forgotten to tell her story, orpeople have forgotten to
(13:02):
illuminate the truth that sheknew, or the grace that she
embodied, or the love that shehad and the kindness that she
offered, not only to Jesus, butto the entire group of people
that were with him, that nurture, and again, all you'd have to
do is spend time thinking aboutwhat it would look like to stay
(13:23):
at the grave of someone that youloved.
That says so much about howdeeply she was connected to the
Christ.
And so that idea of, even whenhe comes back and says, you go
and tell, you go and tell, thereis something so intentionally
(13:44):
powerful about her particularwitness that is needed for us to
believe the power ofresurrection and the ascension
and I use those two words inconjunction, because it's not
just resurrection from death, itis ascension to God.
It is this ascended thought, itis this life of changing the
(14:05):
way that we think, having higherthoughts, having bigger
thoughts, having more expansivethoughts that allow us to join
our minds into the mind ofChrist.
In fact, one of the apostlestells us let this mind be that
in you that was also in ChristJesus.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
we are that you've joined us.
(14:26):
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
(14:48):
We are supposed to have a Christconsciousness, we are supposed
to have a bigger mind.
And how can we get that withoutthe power of the Holy Spirit,
without the Holy Spiritilluminating for us, without us
finding a path to be able to sayhow do I pay attention to the
present matter, to whatever isbefore me, and how do I sanctify
it?
How do I make it holy?
I look to the Mary Magdalenewho tells us that, before he
(15:08):
goes to death, she recognizesthese are the feet that are
going to be pierced and sheanoints them.
This is the body that will bebroken, and she brings healing
to it.
And so those are when I talkabout Mary as a path.
That's what I'm talking aboutPaying attention to the fact
that she had maybe empowered bythe Spirit, maybe through her
(15:30):
own learning, maybe through youknow, I can't even imagine all
the ways that she could come tothose knowledges but she
understood the power ofanointing and in that she took
the practical way of going.
I know this is what this is andwhen I bring it to the Christ,
I think this is where miracleshappen, and if we are going to
(15:52):
do greater works than the onesthat were recorded, then we need
to be busy about the thingsthat caused the miracles to
happen Clearly the Spirit.
But to be able to go, we don'tmaybe need a reproduction of
those exact miracles.
We need different miracles, butwe need miracles and we are
(16:13):
people who, as children of God,are entitled to miracles.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
There's a piece that is kind of stirring in me right
now that if you're reading astory to your child and only
half of the story is available,it might not have the impact
that the full story would have.
We also are holding thisinformation that this is truly
(16:43):
what happened in the life ofMary Magdalene is that a gospel
was written in her name.
She didn't write the gospel,somebody else wrote this, but
they wrote it down based on whatthey heard or what they
witnessed.
And then it was buried and lostand burned in a cave in Egypt
(17:09):
for a good long while 1800something it was rediscovered.
And so here you are as a parent, right, here's the story,
here's the rest of the storythat we get to unfurl and we get
to hold.
(17:29):
And, yeah, some of the story ismissing Water damaged, burnt,
non-translatable, all the issuesthat they've had with this
story in bringing it to us.
But here it is and it's beenhere for a while, A good long
while what?
40 or 50 years, I believe thetranslation.
(17:53):
And yet there's something aboutMary Magdalene that she not
only poured out, but sheexpanded it.
She didn't stop talking aboutJesus.
She most likely became anevangelist in Europe,
(18:19):
particularly in France,particularly in France, and so
if we forget her story and wedon't hold it or shape it or
expand that story, then we areleaving out.
I believe, half of the Jesusstory and that's why this is
(18:43):
important for us to have theseconversations is hmm, Jesus was
half of the story and MaryMagdalene was the other half of
the story.
I'm going to hold to that.
You can challenge me if youwant to, but I'm going to hold
to that.
(19:03):
Why would I challenge you?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Well, there's lots of reasons to challenge that, I'm
thinking but there's also a lotof joy in following that path
and going.
What would it look like and howmany people could that include
who didn't find themselvesreflected in any of the other
characters in that story, andhow many other people could go?
(19:26):
I could, I could relate to that, I could see myself in that, or
even not see yourself in thatand go, but I could see that as
beautiful and that is a path Iwould want to follow.
I could see that as holy, andso the invitation, I think, is
into a widening horizon, intosomething that is expansive, but
(19:53):
into something that is holy andsomething fully loving.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Oh, that's all the goodness, and I think the
purpose of that is ultimately, Ithink it's love.
I think what she poured waslove, right, yes, she poured it
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And she found ways, even with the brothers.
You know, when they cameagainst her in her moment of
explaining what Jesus had taughther out of the Gospel of Mary,
even in that moment she wept forthem.
(20:33):
She wept that they wouldconsider even to think that she
was making up something, thatshe was making up a story.
None of this was ever told.
Why would Jesus talk to a woman?
Well, crying out loud?
How many years had MaryMagdalene been traveling with
(21:00):
this band of brothers?
How many other women had beentraveling with this band of
brothers?
How many other women have beentraveling with this band of
brothers?
You know, it's not like she justall of a sudden appeared on the
scene and had some kind ofsecret sauce, you know, that
needed to be shared.
This is truly an engagingperception, and maybe even I
(21:24):
will say deception, that we werehanded half of the story and
now, particularly you and I arehere in this moment to say nay,
nay, no more, no more of thehalf story.
We want the full monty.
(21:45):
Give us the entire ocean.
We want to swim in that, wewant to taste it, we want to
know the anointing like marymagdalene knew it.
I just included.
You't ask permission.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I like it because I was thinking about that
anointing and how it isfull-bodied, how to anoint
something.
It's on your hands and it'llget in your nose and it'll get
on something else, and I justsee that's how goodness
transfers the goodness that wesee by evidence in the spirit
(22:27):
but then gets in our hands andwe're relieving people of
burdens and we're undoing, youknow, chains that bind people
and we.
This kind of anointing isbreaking yokes and this kind of
anointing is healing people.
And this kind of anointing isthat laying on of hands, that
co-laboring with people into thebettering of the world.
(22:49):
I see this as a practice, butalso as a path that, when we
talk about a relationship withGod or of spirituality that we
recognize this is an invitationinto learning how to live.
Yes, and I think the anointingis a way for us to remember,
when you see someone in pain,that we could ask the Spirit and
(23:18):
that we could be a part of thehealing of the anointing for the
whole world.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
This is how the kingdom comes, and maybe this is
a little bit of a diversionhere, but we were talking in the
pre-show about the situation inTexas and the loss and the
grief and the heartache thatbrothers and sisters that we
haven't even met areexperiencing.
(23:41):
I'm confident I didn't ask youthis, but I'm confident that
sometime over this weekend, thispast weekend that you grabbed
the anointing oil and that youanointed that situation and we
have been anointing people thatwe've never met.
(24:07):
But Spirit calls us to thisanointing to be something that
reaches beyond this humancondition, into a realm.
I believe that Mary knew.
(24:28):
I believe Mary knew the realmand the anointing poured through
her, and Jesus recognized thisand said wherever her story is
told, her name will beremembered.
Wherever my story is told, herstory will be told and she will
be remembered.
That's the path.
(24:52):
The ancient path, the expansivepath is to grab your bottle of
oil, anoint yourself, anointsomeone else and invite spirit,
even invite Mary Magdalene topray for us and with us.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I'm hopeful.
In closing, I want to read theMagdalene's Blessing from Jan
Richardson.
It's a favorite of ours.
You hardly imagined standinghere.
Everything you ever lovedsuddenly returned to you,
looking you in the eye andcalling your name.
And now you do not know how toabide this ache in the center of
(25:39):
your chest, where a door slamsshut and swings open at the same
time.
Turning on the hinge of youraching and hopeful heart, I tell
you this is not banishment fromthe garden.
This is an invitation, a choice, a threshold, a gate.
(26:01):
This is your life, calling toyou from a place that you could
have never dreamed.
But now that you have glimpsedits edge, you cannot imagine
choosing any other way.
So let the tears come asanointing as consecration, and
(26:21):
then let them go.
Let this blessing gather itselfaround you and let it give you
what you will need for thejourney.
You will not remember the words.
They do not matter.
All you need to remember is howit sounded when you stood in
the place of death and heard theliving call your name.
She's calling our name.
(26:42):
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionistheologycom.
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