June 13, 2025 • 35 mins
What if everything you thought you knew about sin and separation from God was based on a misunderstanding? What if the true spiritual journey isn't about managing sin but remembering your divine nature?
Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake dive into a spicy conversation about religious labels that have historically limited our spiritual experience. Through exploring Mary Magdalene as "the new Eve," they uncover a powerful alternative narrative—one where humans were never truly separated from the divine in the first place.
Shelly and Heather challenge listeners to question inherited religious frameworks with the same question God asked Eve: "Who told you that?" This simple query opens the door to examining how certain theological constructs may have disconnected us from our birthright of divine communion. Drawing from both biblical narratives and apocryphal texts like the Gospel of Mary, they reveal how Mary Magdalene understood a profound truth—that transformation comes through presence with the divine, not through moral perfection or religious rule-following.
"Sin is what separates you from God, but there isn't anything that separates us from God," Heather explains, offering a radical reframing of traditional theology. This perspective invites listeners to put down the burden of sin management and instead embrace what Jesus actually taught: oneness with divine love.
The conversation weaves between scripture, personal reflection, and spiritual insight to illuminate a path beyond religious trauma toward wholeness. Their message is ultimately one of liberation—that we can release limiting labels and experience what Mary Magdalene knew in her bones: we are "made of God, made of love," and nothing can separate us from this fundamental truth.
Visit expansionisttheology.com to join our community and continue exploring how returning to divine wholeness transforms not just our spiritual lives, but our entire experience of being human.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Good afternoon, heather Drake.
Good afternoon Shelley Shepard.
(00:23):
I am so happy to be here withyou in the studio recording,
having a moment together tobring light and love to each
other and to the world.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yes, yes, it's great to see you.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It's always fun just to gather and prepare our
thoughts to share with the world, our little conversation over
here in the corner of our world,where we love to talk about
Mary and Eve and sin and all thethings that stir us and light
and spirituality and, yeah, allthe things that make us women,
(01:00):
that make us in the image of Godand that allow us to expand our
thoughts and expand ourintentions and hopefully be
brighter lights and biggercarriers of God's kind of love.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Amen to that.
We talked a few weeks ago aboutMary is the new Eve.
We dipped into ago about Maryis the new Eve.
We dipped into sin in somedifferent places and I think our
heart is still stirring aroundthat.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
What would you say?
I would agree.
Now, certainly we cannot covereverything that everyone has
ever talked about about sin in apodcast, and really I think the
portion of it that captures ourattention right now is the idea
of how often we have beenhanded something like a label
and then we have used it toframe our own lives or our own
(01:56):
thoughts.
And the invitation, I believe,from Mary and from Jesus and
from love's way is telling us toremove the labels from things.
Examine them at least, look atthem, turn them around upside
down and say is this the truth,Is this the light, Is this the
(02:16):
way?
And I think that Mary's way,the way of love, the way that
we're being given some truth touncover, I think there's hope
and there's a whole lot of mercy.
There's a whole lot of mercy inthat way.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I want to read to us a blessing from the Magdalene
Jan Ritzerson.
You hardly imagined standinghere.
Everything you ever lovedsuddenly returned to you,
looking you in the eye andcalling your name.
And now you do not know how toabide this hole in the center of
(02:53):
your chest where a door slamsshut and swings wide at the same
time, turning on the hinge ofyour aching and hopeful heart.
I tell you, this is not abanishment from the garden.
This is an invitation, a choice, a threshold, a gate.
This is your life, calling youfrom a place you could have
(03:14):
never dreamed.
But now that you have glimpsedits edge, you cannot imagine
choosing any other way.
So let the tears come asanointing, as consecration, and
then let them go.
Let this blessing gather itselfaround you.
Let it give you what you willneed for this journey.
You will not remember the words, they do not matter.
(03:37):
All you need to remember is howit sounded when you stood in
the place of death and you heardthe living call your name.
Wow, I think the living iscalling our name, and the
blessing and the anointing isall pointing to another path,
(03:57):
another way of consideringthings, another way of living
through the heart, with the eyesof our heart, seeing things
with the ears of our heart,listening to the Spirit.
And this invitation to thinkabout it, consider it, to honor
the Lord with our intelligence.
I think this is an invitationto reexamine and to look at
(04:20):
something and then, like God,call it good.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I love that.
I love that.
I love that invitation and whata beautiful blessing.
Thank you for sharing that withus here today and the
remembering.
I think that's a big piece ofthe bad news possibly is that
we're forgetting that we'redivine.
Possibly is that we'reforgetting that we're divine,
(04:45):
but the good news is theremembering that we are divine,
that there is no separation inus, between us, that we've never
been cast out of the garden.
We were included in the garden.
We were given somethingexpansive to hold and to grow
(05:11):
and to nurture.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And to have conversations with.
I think we miss sometimes partof the story.
The story is that in thisbeautiful garden, at least part
of the story is that peoplewalked with God and have a
conversation with God, and thisis the invitation for our whole
lives is to walk about thisworld and to have a conversation
(05:33):
with spirit to have aconversation with love, to have
a conversation with creator, tohave a conversation with each
other, and this oneness, thisunity of spirit and of love,
this unity of even calling intopresence the other.
This is, I think, where all thefreedom is, where all of the
(05:55):
goodness is.
This is where life happens andwe get distracted by parts of
the story somebody highlightedto us or didn't highlight to us,
or we had flannel ramp piecesfor, and this becomes you and I
were talking just recently and Ithink it was on the other
podcast about Eve and I wasreminding you that in some
(06:17):
Jewish texts there's an evenearlier text and there's a woman
in the story and her name isLilith, adam's first wife, and
so Adam has this wife and hetells her to obey and she
invokes the name of God, whichis my favorite part of this
particular story.
She invokes the name of God andthen she just simply leaves the
garden.
(06:37):
Absolutely not, I'm not doingthis.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
She doesn't want to have anything to do with it
Immediately.
No.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Immediately, it's a no for me.
He doesn't want to haveanything to do with it
Immediately.
No, immediately it's a no forme.
And so I think the hope for thewhole world, for us, is to
still say what is it like for usto invoke love's name?
What is it like for us to sayif the story that you've been
told is limiting, if the storythat you've been told tells you
that you have to stay under thislabel or in this particular
(07:05):
corner, maybe you need to invokethe name of God and walk out of
that garden and walk intobigger light and walk into more.
You know there's a bigger worldthan this, and I think the idea
of you know gates or thingsthat keep us behind places again
just reminds me of the words ofJesus, who said I have sheep in
(07:26):
another fold that you don'teven know anything about.
If you're so worried about whatthis gate is and what sheep are
in and who is out, jesus is likeyeah, I've got other things
that you don't even knowanything about.
So if where you are in yourlife feels Black sheep, speckled
sheep multicolored sheep yeah.
For every sheep we have a goodshepherd.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
We have a good shepherd, yes, and I think we
often get trapped, as you said,heather, behind these doors or
in these boxes or under theselabels that keep us from
experiencing not just our truestidentity in Christ, but the
ultimate reason that we werecreated was for oneness with God
(08:14):
, to be with God, and I hearpeople often in church, out of
church, at different tables,wanting to take this word sin.
That started somewhere in thebeginning.
(08:35):
It's interesting that it wasn'tin the beginning beginning.
It only happened after peoplegot involved.
But we take this word and westretch it and place it over
nearly every aspect of our livesand I just see the harm that
(09:00):
we're doing, not just as peopleof faith and of the church, but
also how, in our minds, we haveto wrestle that and we have to
separate it, and I think thatmaybe you see this, maybe as a
pastor, more than what I do, butsin is the stumbling block.
(09:26):
Well, I think that the idea ofsin.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
and, firstly, it's a good idea to ask the question
that God asked Eve in thebeginning, since we're starting
there who told you that, Sure?
Who told you this was sin?
Who told you that you werenaked?
Who told you that you were notenough, that you had to cover
(10:01):
this or be this?
I love that first question thattells me how separation that
somehow our egos have convincedus, other people's egos have
convinced us that we areseparate from that there is a
separation, that there isdistance between us and God.
I mean, in fact, that is thelie, I think, of what sin is.
Sin is what separates you fromGod, but there isn't anything
(10:24):
that separates us from God.
In fact, the Apostle Paulworked tirelessly to say that
there's nothing that couldseparate us from God.
Now, are there things that wedo that are sinful, that are
harmful, that are hurtful?
Yes, but at the core of us, atthe place of who we are, there
(10:45):
is wholeness, there is holiness,there is oneness, and the call
of love, the call of Christ, thecall of apostles like Mary, is
reminding us return to the good,return back to those places
that are whole and holy, thatthere is no way that
contamination of any kind couldget.
In fact, one of the ways thatthe holy spirit is described is
(11:07):
as a seal, something that comesupon us.
We are sealed by the holyspirit.
That means no contaminationscan come into us.
There is nothing that couldchange this.
This is ultimately holy andpure before the Lord and before
each other, standing before eachother naked and unashamed and
(11:28):
going.
This is who we are made in theimage of God, and so I think it
deserves a lot of questioningand it deserves a lot of debates
, and it deserves a lot ofinward time of going.
Am I bringing something to thisto myself, to my relationship,
to others?
Am I bringing a label thatsomeone else gave me, and am I
(11:50):
trying to cover everything withthis label when what we're
invited into is an expansion ofgrace, more grace between us?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, if we jump from the garden to Mary Magdalene as
the new Eve, we get thissimilar story where immediately
well, I don't know how immediateit was, but there was this
conversations around MaryMagdalene that the you know
(12:21):
Jesus loved her more than all ofus.
There was this inner circlewith her and Jesus.
There was this intuition thatshe understood and that she had
somehow connected with what hismessage ultimately was that the
(12:43):
good is within you, the kingdomis within you.
And then from that innersanctuary, that inner kingdom,
is how my love expands, how theworld is touched, how life is
transformed.
And then she becomes demoted byPeter and others as sinful, as a
(13:14):
sinful woman, as a prostitute.
That label was carried by herand by the church and by second
testament for a very, very longtime.
And so when you say the labelsare are keeping us bound, the,
(13:34):
the constructs, the systems, thepatriarchy, those things, the
structures that we have beenhanded, are the pieces that are
keeping us from a transcendentlife, a deeper spiritual walk, a
deeper understanding that I amloved and beloved beyond all
(13:55):
measure.
Like, how do we go from aposture in the garden to this
knowing story that we have withMary Magdalene, to our own
understanding that there is noseparation.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Sometimes, shelley, it feels like there is a
separation, or sometimes otherpeople have told us that there's
a separation, or sometimes wedon't know what there is and so
we assume it's a separation.
I was thinking so much aboutthe fact that, in fact, the
apostle Paul says this when Iwas a child.
(14:35):
I thought as a child that Iconsidered things as a child did
, and one of the things thatfollowing and faithfulness and
community and communion actuallyintend to produce in us is
transformation that allows usinto love's maturity.
And so as we mature, we beginto think differently, to
(14:58):
consider things differently.
Very often, as children, weconsider silence, absence, and
anytime there's silence, we'reconvinced it's absence.
And then we're thinking youknow, what did I do?
How did I separate?
Am I lost?
I mean, our brains go throughthese gymnastics to make
(15:20):
connection when really there issuch incredible wholeness in the
silence To be with someonefully, when you do not have to
fill the sound around you or theair around you with sound, to
just be present, to be fullyloved and fully seen and not
need noise.
(15:40):
And I think that as we age or aswe grow, we're able to see that
, in this beautiful presencethat the Spirit gives us the
silence doesn't mean thatabsence doesn't mean anything is
wrong, doesn't mean we didsomething bad or that we are
somehow disconnected.
In fact, it's an invitation intoa further connection.
(16:03):
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If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
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expansionistheologycom.
And I think that's one of thethings that Mary offers is
(16:27):
reminding us that the way oflove connects us even more
deeply to spirit and toourselves and where, as before,
if we're focused on what peoplehave told us about sin or sin
management, sin or sinmanagement we miss the
(16:52):
invitation to go inward withChrist, to go inward and to find
the love that is already there,the love that we're seeking for
, that is already present there.
That we find the practice thatMary did of anointing, of
presence, of giving, and we findhope in that practice that
brings us to true holiness, thatbrings us to wholeness, that
(17:15):
brings us to that place wherethe divine and our humanity meet
.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I read last week, I don't know, meet.
It's interesting.
I read last week, I don't know,maybe it was, maybe it came
from you, I'm not.
I'm not sure where I heard this, but what you just said is that
absence, silence is not absence, it's presence, and I yeah,
finish, I was just going to say.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
but in love's presence always liberates us
always liberates us does notbind us.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Mm-hmm.
Cornered off or not allowed tospeak or not allowed to teach or
(18:09):
preach or bring a message, thatthat silence felt like absence,
like absence of God or evenabsence of spirit.
But I believe the divine,feminine spirit within us is
just beckoning for us to releasethat, Put those things in the
(18:32):
past and find the voice thatmaybe was left in the garden or
maybe was left with the brotherssomewhere else along the path,
to bring it now and, as you said, to turn what we thought.
You know, as children, asyounger people, as growing up,
(18:55):
we've learned some things nowabout this relationship with who
God is to us, with whose spiritis to us.
It's not the same and I'm notsaying that God changes.
Maybe she does, Maybe they do,I don't know but there is some
(19:19):
kind of shift that has happenedwhen we allow the Spirit of God
and the anointing presence ofGod to lead us and teach us and
guide us and nurture us intothis deeper way, into this
deeper understanding that Ibelieve Mary Magdalene knew in
her bones, she knew, and Ibelieve Jesus knew that she knew
(19:40):
as well, and that is that'shope to me, that is hope that
you know, even if the CatholicChurch.
I was talking to someoneyesterday.
The Catholic Church doesn't,you know, isn't allowing women
to lead mass, and then thiswoman went to a church where the
woman was leading mass andmaybe she was a deacon or some
(20:04):
other title and I just said hercomment was spirit will never be
stopped, Spirit can never bestopped.
And my comment to her wasspirit will find a way, Spirit
will find a way.
So keep pressing in, and I feellike that's what we do every
(20:26):
time we come here.
To record is you know, spiritis wanting not just us to
embrace you know what we'refeeling, what we're sensing but
to invite others.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
But then to be able to look back at history and be
able to go when you shared thatstory right there.
It just reminds me of Paul andthekla, and thekla who says can
I be baptized?
Not now, not now.
She's like that's okay, I'll doit myself.
You know this idea of it's.
Fine.
If you don't want to include me, I'll, I'll find a way.
I will.
That's right.
I will engage the spirit, I willtake my birthright, I will
(21:00):
assume my position as son of god, daughter of god, right you, as
person made in the image of God, and be able to say that is my
right as a spirit to beconnected with God's own spirit,
to allow my thoughts to enterthe thoughts of God and to be
one, because this is what Jesusprays for us.
(21:21):
Father, make them one.
Yes, prays for us, father.
Make them one, and not inconformity, but in all of our
beauty and diversity, to allowus to bring ourselves, our whole
selves, into the presence oflove and then stay fully
connected to that divine love.
To stay fully connected to thatI think that's one of the
(21:42):
things that we see in thewitness of the testimony of
Jesus is that he stayedconnected to the love of the
Father and it allowed him to bea miracle worker, to do the
miraculous, to really live fullyhuman and this is the witness
of Christ is that we would befully alive.
(22:05):
And the kingdom that is soclose to us that it's even in
our mouth, the kingdom righthere and now.
The invitation of Jesus is as itis in heaven, is not for when
we die, it's for now.
And it's this invitation intoliving fully in the present for
us living and allowing the lovethat has already been shed
(22:27):
abroad in our heart, throughChrist Jesus, to be the love
that we love ourselves with, tobe the love that we love our
neighbors with, to be the lovethat we love the world with.
And this love, this staying inthis particular presence of love
.
I think that Mary shows us sucha beautiful way to do that, and
it is return to the good,return to love.
(22:48):
Every time it feels like yourbrain has gotten off or your
mind has gotten into somewhereelse, bring it back under.
This idea of love is the wayLove, is the way that we
transcend.
Love is the way that the HolySpirit speaks to us, and the
Spirit of God, which is theagent of transformation, invites
us to not only be ourselvestransformed, but to be able to
(23:11):
have a hope for the world, thatthis world has hope because the
power of God's incredible loveit's a beautiful story, heather,
it's just a beautiful.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
It's a beautiful way to uh, to live our lives in the
world is is through this uhconnection with the divine and
creation and this expansive loveand knowing that that we are
one.
Um, and I feel like, not feellike.
(23:45):
I believe Mary Magdalene hadthat feeling and that knowing
and the intuition that she hadbeen transformed by what.
(24:12):
What was she transformed by?
He hadn't yet ascended, hehadn't resurrected, he hadn't
moved on.
What was she transformed by?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
I think the presence of spirit, the presence between
them, yes, the scripture thatreminds us that where two or
three are there in fact it is aFirst Testament promise as well
when two or three are togetherand they read Torah, the
Shekinah is there between them.
And this Shekinah, this orShekinah, or however you want to
(24:45):
use that word, but thispresence of spirit, this is the
agent of transformation.
This is our, our, our link tothe, to the eternal that we are
all looking for.
And the invitation into spiritis not an invitation that is
(25:06):
given to us because we earned itor because we're moral enough
or because we have followedenough rules, but the invitation
to spirit is our birthright.
Are you breathing?
You're invited into spirit.
Are you alive?
Is there consciousness at all?
You're invited into spirit.
(25:26):
This is the practice ofcommunion, the Eucharist, the
table.
This is the practice offriendship.
This is the practice of holybrotherhood, sisterhood.
This is the practice of thechurch.
This is the practice of when ittalks about.
True religion is caring forwidows and orphans.
That this religion is, that weare going to love the world and
(25:49):
make it a better place.
This is how the dead are raised.
This is the practice ofresurrection, but I think that
often we forget thatresurrection wasn't the final
step, that it is the ascension,it is the transcendence that,
yes, we need the dead to beraised, but that's not enough.
There is for us an invitationinto the holy life place of
(26:14):
transcendence.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
And I think for me it boils down to remembering, to
remembering that I'm loved, thatI've never been separated, that
, no matter what labels peoplehave tried to place on me or to
hand me as a woman, that theremembering is, that for within
(26:40):
me is a spirit holy, intelligent, manifold, subtle, active,
incisive, unsullied, lucid right.
It's this book of wisdom,chapter seven in the New
Jerusalem Bible, that justelevates the remembering.
And so when you forget who youare, pull it out, the New
(27:05):
Jerusalem Bible, chapter 7,verses 22 to 30, it's a
remembering Like we've forgotten.
We have forgotten, and I thinkMary Magdalene is reminding us,
I think her presence in SecondTestament is a reminder that
there was something buried thatwe need to excavate, that we
(27:27):
need to understand my mom.
The other day she's like whatis this thing with you and Mary
Magdalene?
And I said oh, don't you know,mom, she's my new girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
But she's a way, a beautiful light.
In fact, if people look and dothe research, find Mary, the
Tower, and find the beauty thatis there in saying, what does it
look like for us to follow theway that Mary showed us to have
communion with Christ?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, and can we just put sin down?
Can we just lay it down?
Do we have to keep talkingabout it?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I think we do, because how would I know how to
judge you if I didn't know whatthe sin was?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, I know you can't lay it down.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
but I'm wondering if I can lay it down.
I want to lay it down, I wanteveryone to lay it down.
I feel like you know, if youget a pile of naughty like
little kids together and theyall have sticks, you're like at
least take the sticks away fromthem.
You know, and so it feels thesame way, like at least take
away the things that they'reharming each other with.
I mean, they'll still pull hairand do those kind of things,
(28:35):
but we have these ideas thathave been given to us.
We didn't make them upourselves.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
No.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
They've come to us through principalities.
They've come to us throughculture.
They've come to us through waysthat people have meant to harm
us or to keep us from truth, andthere has been trauma and
injustice.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
There's been sinful acts on people.
There's no doubt about that.
But to perpetuate that, we comefrom sin.
I'm pretty sure I was born inlove.
How about you?
I was forged through love, so Idon't know.
At some point, heather, I justfeel like I just want to lay
(29:16):
that word down.
I never want to say it again.
I never want to say it again.
Why do I need to be reminded?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I don't need to be reminded.
Not when there's a way out, notwhen there's an escape, not
when there's a wholeness, notwhen there is a greater magic,
still Not when there is amiracle, not when there is a
transformation, still not whenthere is a miracle, not when
there is a transformation.
We do not need to be spendingany time with that.
When there is a way of living,when there is a way of uniting
(29:45):
with Christ, when there is a wayof uniting with ourself, that
leads to holiness.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Don't you think Peter in the gospel of Mary was
trying to trap Mary Levi andeveryone else that was standing
around there by asking thequestion Master Jesus, tell us
what is sin.
Tell us what sin is Well.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I mean, I don't know what Peter was thinking.
I don't it was a trap Well,that could be.
I don't know what Peter wasthinking.
I don't it was a trap Well,that could be.
That could absolutely be.
But I also know that peoplewant to know how can I avoid
this or how close can I get tothe side of this before I also
am in this trap.
So I can't begin to say why heasked that question, but I know
(30:35):
what Jesus said.
Tell us yeah.
And according to thatparticular translation, that
particular book, jesus said sinis not what you should be
worried about.
There are sinful things thatyou do, which is like harm a
brother, commit adultery, butthat is not who you are Through
your actions.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yes, yes.
And so Jesus is telling us thatthe truth of what we already
know, that we are made in theimage of God, not just the image
of, but we are made of God,that we are made of love.
That is what God is.
God is love, nothing less butthis incredible, radical love,
(31:17):
and we ourselves are made inthat love, and Jesus says that
is the way home.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And I say unto you, miss Heather, Sound like King
James.
Give me more of her spirit,give me more of her anointing,
give me more of that, uh, thatpeace, that, uh that Mary
Magdalene knew um when she methim in the garden that morning
(31:54):
and he said go and tell them.
Yeah, he knew, she knew.
And there we have it she's theapostle.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
And Jesus said go and tell them what you have seen,
what you have witnessed, andthis idea that we also are to
say what we have seen.
We have seen love be greaterthan death.
We have seen love remind us ofthings that we have forgotten.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
We have seen love breathe life into places that
are devoid of breath.
Here is the breath of spiritagain.
Here is the Ruach, here is thespirit who creates out of chaos,
here is the life giver.
And spirit herself tells usthere's more further up, further
(32:56):
in.
There's more, there's more.
There's more than the labelsthat people have given you.
There is things to put down sothat you can receive all of the
riches of the goodness, of thegifts that God has given us, and
the gifts of light, the giftsof love, the gifts of peace and
the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said it's better for youthat I go, because I'm leaving
(33:19):
with you the Spirit.
You have the Spirit with youand the Spirit will teach you
everything that you need to know.
So our job is how do we findthe fragrance?
How do we find?
the frequency of the Spirit.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Well, we had this conversation, a short
conversation, that it can't belearned, that it must be
experienced, and so I think thatmight be a different podcast,
but it's a beautiful questionmaybe for us to end on and to
think about is how do we movefurther up and further in into
(34:00):
the presence you know, movingpast silence and absence and
things that maybe we were toldthat we couldn't experience or
hold you know, into that greaterknowing, into that greater
understanding of that onenesswith Christ?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
I don't think we could capture in a short amount
of time, but I do think that youcould hear us both say taste
and see.
Yes, it is sweet, it is good,it is worth.
Jesus told this parable.
There was a man who found apearl of great price and who
went home and sold everythingfor the pearl and his neighbor
said what are you doing?
That makes no sense.
And I'm telling you there is atreasure, there is something
(34:47):
worth selling everything for andgoing after and saying we'll
give up the dirt and the playand we will hold the precious
and we will be the precious andwe will return to the good.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionistheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Good afternoon, heather Drake.
Good afternoon Shelley Shepard.
(00:23):
I am so happy to be here withyou in the studio recording,
having a moment together tobring light and love to each
other and to the world.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yes, yes, it's great to see you.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It's always fun just to gather and prepare our
thoughts to share with the world, our little conversation over
here in the corner of our world,where we love to talk about
Mary and Eve and sin and all thethings that stir us and light
and spirituality and, yeah, allthe things that make us women,
(01:00):
that make us in the image of Godand that allow us to expand our
thoughts and expand ourintentions and hopefully be
brighter lights and biggercarriers of God's kind of love.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Amen to that.
We talked a few weeks ago aboutMary is the new Eve.
We dipped into ago about Maryis the new Eve.
We dipped into sin in somedifferent places and I think our
heart is still stirring aroundthat.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
What would you say?
I would agree.
Now, certainly we cannot covereverything that everyone has
ever talked about about sin in apodcast, and really I think the
portion of it that captures ourattention right now is the idea
of how often we have beenhanded something like a label
and then we have used it toframe our own lives or our own
(01:56):
thoughts.
And the invitation, I believe,from Mary and from Jesus and
from love's way is telling us toremove the labels from things.
Examine them at least, look atthem, turn them around upside
down and say is this the truth,Is this the light, Is this the
(02:16):
way?
And I think that Mary's way,the way of love, the way that
we're being given some truth touncover, I think there's hope
and there's a whole lot of mercy.
There's a whole lot of mercy inthat way.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I want to read to us a blessing from the Magdalene
Jan Ritzerson.
You hardly imagined standinghere.
Everything you ever lovedsuddenly returned to you,
looking you in the eye andcalling your name.
And now you do not know how toabide this hole in the center of
(02:53):
your chest where a door slamsshut and swings wide at the same
time, turning on the hinge ofyour aching and hopeful heart.
I tell you, this is not abanishment from the garden.
This is an invitation, a choice, a threshold, a gate.
This is your life, calling youfrom a place you could have
(03:14):
never dreamed.
But now that you have glimpsedits edge, you cannot imagine
choosing any other way.
So let the tears come asanointing, as consecration, and
then let them go.
Let this blessing gather itselfaround you.
Let it give you what you willneed for this journey.
You will not remember the words, they do not matter.
(03:37):
All you need to remember is howit sounded when you stood in
the place of death and you heardthe living call your name.
Wow, I think the living iscalling our name, and the
blessing and the anointing isall pointing to another path,
(03:57):
another way of consideringthings, another way of living
through the heart, with the eyesof our heart, seeing things
with the ears of our heart,listening to the Spirit.
And this invitation to thinkabout it, consider it, to honor
the Lord with our intelligence.
I think this is an invitationto reexamine and to look at
(04:20):
something and then, like God,call it good.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I love that.
I love that.
I love that invitation and whata beautiful blessing.
Thank you for sharing that withus here today and the
remembering.
I think that's a big piece ofthe bad news possibly is that
we're forgetting that we'redivine.
Possibly is that we'reforgetting that we're divine,
(04:45):
but the good news is theremembering that we are divine,
that there is no separation inus, between us, that we've never
been cast out of the garden.
We were included in the garden.
We were given somethingexpansive to hold and to grow
(05:11):
and to nurture.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And to have conversations with.
I think we miss sometimes partof the story.
The story is that in thisbeautiful garden, at least part
of the story is that peoplewalked with God and have a
conversation with God, and thisis the invitation for our whole
lives is to walk about thisworld and to have a conversation
(05:33):
with spirit to have aconversation with love, to have
a conversation with creator, tohave a conversation with each
other, and this oneness, thisunity of spirit and of love,
this unity of even calling intopresence the other.
This is, I think, where all thefreedom is, where all of the
(05:55):
goodness is.
This is where life happens andwe get distracted by parts of
the story somebody highlightedto us or didn't highlight to us,
or we had flannel ramp piecesfor, and this becomes you and I
were talking just recently and Ithink it was on the other
podcast about Eve and I wasreminding you that in some
(06:17):
Jewish texts there's an evenearlier text and there's a woman
in the story and her name isLilith, adam's first wife, and
so Adam has this wife and hetells her to obey and she
invokes the name of God, whichis my favorite part of this
particular story.
She invokes the name of God andthen she just simply leaves the
garden.
(06:37):
Absolutely not, I'm not doingthis.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
She doesn't want to have anything to do with it
Immediately.
No.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Immediately, it's a no for me.
He doesn't want to haveanything to do with it
Immediately.
No, immediately it's a no forme.
And so I think the hope for thewhole world, for us, is to
still say what is it like for usto invoke love's name?
What is it like for us to sayif the story that you've been
told is limiting, if the storythat you've been told tells you
that you have to stay under thislabel or in this particular
(07:05):
corner, maybe you need to invokethe name of God and walk out of
that garden and walk intobigger light and walk into more.
You know there's a bigger worldthan this, and I think the idea
of you know gates or thingsthat keep us behind places again
just reminds me of the words ofJesus, who said I have sheep in
(07:26):
another fold that you don'teven know anything about.
If you're so worried about whatthis gate is and what sheep are
in and who is out, jesus is likeyeah, I've got other things
that you don't even knowanything about.
So if where you are in yourlife feels Black sheep, speckled
sheep multicolored sheep yeah.
For every sheep we have a goodshepherd.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
We have a good shepherd, yes, and I think we
often get trapped, as you said,heather, behind these doors or
in these boxes or under theselabels that keep us from
experiencing not just our truestidentity in Christ, but the
ultimate reason that we werecreated was for oneness with God
(08:14):
, to be with God, and I hearpeople often in church, out of
church, at different tables,wanting to take this word sin.
That started somewhere in thebeginning.
(08:35):
It's interesting that it wasn'tin the beginning beginning.
It only happened after peoplegot involved.
But we take this word and westretch it and place it over
nearly every aspect of our livesand I just see the harm that
(09:00):
we're doing, not just as peopleof faith and of the church, but
also how, in our minds, we haveto wrestle that and we have to
separate it, and I think thatmaybe you see this, maybe as a
pastor, more than what I do, butsin is the stumbling block.
(09:26):
Well, I think that the idea ofsin.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
and, firstly, it's a good idea to ask the question
that God asked Eve in thebeginning, since we're starting
there who told you that, Sure?
Who told you this was sin?
Who told you that you werenaked?
Who told you that you were notenough, that you had to cover
(10:01):
this or be this?
I love that first question thattells me how separation that
somehow our egos have convincedus, other people's egos have
convinced us that we areseparate from that there is a
separation, that there isdistance between us and God.
I mean, in fact, that is thelie, I think, of what sin is.
Sin is what separates you fromGod, but there isn't anything
(10:24):
that separates us from God.
In fact, the Apostle Paulworked tirelessly to say that
there's nothing that couldseparate us from God.
Now, are there things that wedo that are sinful, that are
harmful, that are hurtful?
Yes, but at the core of us, atthe place of who we are, there
(10:45):
is wholeness, there is holiness,there is oneness, and the call
of love, the call of Christ, thecall of apostles like Mary, is
reminding us return to the good,return back to those places
that are whole and holy, thatthere is no way that
contamination of any kind couldget.
In fact, one of the ways thatthe holy spirit is described is
(11:07):
as a seal, something that comesupon us.
We are sealed by the holyspirit.
That means no contaminationscan come into us.
There is nothing that couldchange this.
This is ultimately holy andpure before the Lord and before
each other, standing before eachother naked and unashamed and
(11:28):
going.
This is who we are made in theimage of God, and so I think it
deserves a lot of questioningand it deserves a lot of debates
, and it deserves a lot ofinward time of going.
Am I bringing something to thisto myself, to my relationship,
to others?
Am I bringing a label thatsomeone else gave me, and am I
(11:50):
trying to cover everything withthis label when what we're
invited into is an expansion ofgrace, more grace between us?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, if we jump from the garden to Mary Magdalene as
the new Eve, we get thissimilar story where immediately
well, I don't know how immediateit was, but there was this
conversations around MaryMagdalene that the you know
(12:21):
Jesus loved her more than all ofus.
There was this inner circlewith her and Jesus.
There was this intuition thatshe understood and that she had
somehow connected with what hismessage ultimately was that the
(12:43):
good is within you, the kingdomis within you.
And then from that innersanctuary, that inner kingdom,
is how my love expands, how theworld is touched, how life is
transformed.
And then she becomes demoted byPeter and others as sinful, as a
(13:14):
sinful woman, as a prostitute.
That label was carried by herand by the church and by second
testament for a very, very longtime.
And so when you say the labelsare are keeping us bound, the,
(13:34):
the constructs, the systems, thepatriarchy, those things, the
structures that we have beenhanded, are the pieces that are
keeping us from a transcendentlife, a deeper spiritual walk, a
deeper understanding that I amloved and beloved beyond all
(13:55):
measure.
Like, how do we go from aposture in the garden to this
knowing story that we have withMary Magdalene, to our own
understanding that there is noseparation.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Sometimes, shelley, it feels like there is a
separation, or sometimes otherpeople have told us that there's
a separation, or sometimes wedon't know what there is and so
we assume it's a separation.
I was thinking so much aboutthe fact that, in fact, the
apostle Paul says this when Iwas a child.
(14:35):
I thought as a child that Iconsidered things as a child did
, and one of the things thatfollowing and faithfulness and
community and communion actuallyintend to produce in us is
transformation that allows usinto love's maturity.
And so as we mature, we beginto think differently, to
(14:58):
consider things differently.
Very often, as children, weconsider silence, absence, and
anytime there's silence, we'reconvinced it's absence.
And then we're thinking youknow, what did I do?
How did I separate?
Am I lost?
I mean, our brains go throughthese gymnastics to make
(15:20):
connection when really there issuch incredible wholeness in the
silence To be with someonefully, when you do not have to
fill the sound around you or theair around you with sound, to
just be present, to be fullyloved and fully seen and not
need noise.
(15:40):
And I think that as we age or aswe grow, we're able to see that
, in this beautiful presencethat the Spirit gives us the
silence doesn't mean thatabsence doesn't mean anything is
wrong, doesn't mean we didsomething bad or that we are
somehow disconnected.
In fact, it's an invitation intoa further connection.
(16:03):
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
we are that you've joined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
And I think that's one of thethings that Mary offers is
(16:27):
reminding us that the way oflove connects us even more
deeply to spirit and toourselves and where, as before,
if we're focused on what peoplehave told us about sin or sin
management, sin or sinmanagement we miss the
(16:52):
invitation to go inward withChrist, to go inward and to find
the love that is already there,the love that we're seeking for
, that is already present there.
That we find the practice thatMary did of anointing, of
presence, of giving, and we findhope in that practice that
brings us to true holiness, thatbrings us to wholeness, that
(17:15):
brings us to that place wherethe divine and our humanity meet
.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I read last week, I don't know, meet.
It's interesting.
I read last week, I don't know,maybe it was, maybe it came
from you, I'm not.
I'm not sure where I heard this, but what you just said is that
absence, silence is not absence, it's presence, and I yeah,
finish, I was just going to say.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
but in love's presence always liberates us
always liberates us does notbind us.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Mm-hmm.
Cornered off or not allowed tospeak or not allowed to teach or
(18:09):
preach or bring a message, thatthat silence felt like absence,
like absence of God or evenabsence of spirit.
But I believe the divine,feminine spirit within us is
just beckoning for us to releasethat, Put those things in the
(18:32):
past and find the voice thatmaybe was left in the garden or
maybe was left with the brotherssomewhere else along the path,
to bring it now and, as you said, to turn what we thought.
You know, as children, asyounger people, as growing up,
(18:55):
we've learned some things nowabout this relationship with who
God is to us, with whose spiritis to us.
It's not the same and I'm notsaying that God changes.
Maybe she does, Maybe they do,I don't know but there is some
(19:19):
kind of shift that has happenedwhen we allow the Spirit of God
and the anointing presence ofGod to lead us and teach us and
guide us and nurture us intothis deeper way, into this
deeper understanding that Ibelieve Mary Magdalene knew in
her bones, she knew, and Ibelieve Jesus knew that she knew
(19:40):
as well, and that is that'shope to me, that is hope that
you know, even if the CatholicChurch.
I was talking to someoneyesterday.
The Catholic Church doesn't,you know, isn't allowing women
to lead mass, and then thiswoman went to a church where the
woman was leading mass andmaybe she was a deacon or some
(20:04):
other title and I just said hercomment was spirit will never be
stopped, Spirit can never bestopped.
And my comment to her wasspirit will find a way, Spirit
will find a way.
So keep pressing in, and I feellike that's what we do every
(20:26):
time we come here.
To record is you know, spiritis wanting not just us to
embrace you know what we'refeeling, what we're sensing but
to invite others.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
But then to be able to look back at history and be
able to go when you shared thatstory right there.
It just reminds me of Paul andthekla, and thekla who says can
I be baptized?
Not now, not now.
She's like that's okay, I'll doit myself.
You know this idea of it's.
Fine.
If you don't want to include me, I'll, I'll find a way.
I will.
That's right.
I will engage the spirit, I willtake my birthright, I will
(21:00):
assume my position as son of god, daughter of god, right you, as
person made in the image of God, and be able to say that is my
right as a spirit to beconnected with God's own spirit,
to allow my thoughts to enterthe thoughts of God and to be
one, because this is what Jesusprays for us.
(21:21):
Father, make them one.
Yes, prays for us, father.
Make them one, and not inconformity, but in all of our
beauty and diversity, to allowus to bring ourselves, our whole
selves, into the presence oflove and then stay fully
connected to that divine love.
To stay fully connected to thatI think that's one of the
(21:42):
things that we see in thewitness of the testimony of
Jesus is that he stayedconnected to the love of the
Father and it allowed him to bea miracle worker, to do the
miraculous, to really live fullyhuman and this is the witness
of Christ is that we would befully alive.
(22:05):
And the kingdom that is soclose to us that it's even in
our mouth, the kingdom righthere and now.
The invitation of Jesus is as itis in heaven, is not for when
we die, it's for now.
And it's this invitation intoliving fully in the present for
us living and allowing the lovethat has already been shed
(22:27):
abroad in our heart, throughChrist Jesus, to be the love
that we love ourselves with, tobe the love that we love our
neighbors with, to be the lovethat we love the world with.
And this love, this staying inthis particular presence of love
.
I think that Mary shows us sucha beautiful way to do that, and
it is return to the good,return to love.
(22:48):
Every time it feels like yourbrain has gotten off or your
mind has gotten into somewhereelse, bring it back under.
This idea of love is the wayLove, is the way that we
transcend.
Love is the way that the HolySpirit speaks to us, and the
Spirit of God, which is theagent of transformation, invites
us to not only be ourselvestransformed, but to be able to
(23:11):
have a hope for the world, thatthis world has hope because the
power of God's incredible loveit's a beautiful story, heather,
it's just a beautiful.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
It's a beautiful way to uh, to live our lives in the
world is is through this uhconnection with the divine and
creation and this expansive loveand knowing that that we are
one.
Um, and I feel like, not feellike.
(23:45):
I believe Mary Magdalene hadthat feeling and that knowing
and the intuition that she hadbeen transformed by what.
(24:12):
What was she transformed by?
He hadn't yet ascended, hehadn't resurrected, he hadn't
moved on.
What was she transformed by?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
I think the presence of spirit, the presence between
them, yes, the scripture thatreminds us that where two or
three are there in fact it is aFirst Testament promise as well
when two or three are togetherand they read Torah, the
Shekinah is there between them.
And this Shekinah, this orShekinah, or however you want to
(24:45):
use that word, but thispresence of spirit, this is the
agent of transformation.
This is our, our, our link tothe, to the eternal that we are
all looking for.
And the invitation into spiritis not an invitation that is
(25:06):
given to us because we earned itor because we're moral enough
or because we have followedenough rules, but the invitation
to spirit is our birthright.
Are you breathing?
You're invited into spirit.
Are you alive?
Is there consciousness at all?
You're invited into spirit.
(25:26):
This is the practice ofcommunion, the Eucharist, the
table.
This is the practice offriendship.
This is the practice of holybrotherhood, sisterhood.
This is the practice of thechurch.
This is the practice of when ittalks about.
True religion is caring forwidows and orphans.
That this religion is, that weare going to love the world and
(25:49):
make it a better place.
This is how the dead are raised.
This is the practice ofresurrection, but I think that
often we forget thatresurrection wasn't the final
step, that it is the ascension,it is the transcendence that,
yes, we need the dead to beraised, but that's not enough.
There is for us an invitationinto the holy life place of
(26:14):
transcendence.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
And I think for me it boils down to remembering, to
remembering that I'm loved, thatI've never been separated, that
, no matter what labels peoplehave tried to place on me or to
hand me as a woman, that theremembering is, that for within
(26:40):
me is a spirit holy, intelligent, manifold, subtle, active,
incisive, unsullied, lucid right.
It's this book of wisdom,chapter seven in the New
Jerusalem Bible, that justelevates the remembering.
And so when you forget who youare, pull it out, the New
(27:05):
Jerusalem Bible, chapter 7,verses 22 to 30, it's a
remembering Like we've forgotten.
We have forgotten, and I thinkMary Magdalene is reminding us,
I think her presence in SecondTestament is a reminder that
there was something buried thatwe need to excavate, that we
(27:27):
need to understand my mom.
The other day she's like whatis this thing with you and Mary
Magdalene?
And I said oh, don't you know,mom, she's my new girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
But she's a way, a beautiful light.
In fact, if people look and dothe research, find Mary, the
Tower, and find the beauty thatis there in saying, what does it
look like for us to follow theway that Mary showed us to have
communion with Christ?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, and can we just put sin down?
Can we just lay it down?
Do we have to keep talkingabout it?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I think we do, because how would I know how to
judge you if I didn't know whatthe sin was?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, I know you can't lay it down.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
but I'm wondering if I can lay it down.
I want to lay it down, I wanteveryone to lay it down.
I feel like you know, if youget a pile of naughty like
little kids together and theyall have sticks, you're like at
least take the sticks away fromthem.
You know, and so it feels thesame way, like at least take
away the things that they'reharming each other with.
I mean, they'll still pull hairand do those kind of things,
(28:35):
but we have these ideas thathave been given to us.
We didn't make them upourselves.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
No.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
They've come to us through principalities.
They've come to us throughculture.
They've come to us through waysthat people have meant to harm
us or to keep us from truth, andthere has been trauma and
injustice.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
There's been sinful acts on people.
There's no doubt about that.
But to perpetuate that, we comefrom sin.
I'm pretty sure I was born inlove.
How about you?
I was forged through love, so Idon't know.
At some point, heather, I justfeel like I just want to lay
(29:16):
that word down.
I never want to say it again.
I never want to say it again.
Why do I need to be reminded?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I don't need to be reminded.
Not when there's a way out, notwhen there's an escape, not
when there's a wholeness, notwhen there is a greater magic,
still Not when there is amiracle, not when there is a
transformation, still not whenthere is a miracle, not when
there is a transformation.
We do not need to be spendingany time with that.
When there is a way of living,when there is a way of uniting
(29:45):
with Christ, when there is a wayof uniting with ourself, that
leads to holiness.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Don't you think Peter in the gospel of Mary was
trying to trap Mary Levi andeveryone else that was standing
around there by asking thequestion Master Jesus, tell us
what is sin.
Tell us what sin is Well.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I mean, I don't know what Peter was thinking.
I don't it was a trap Well,that could be.
I don't know what Peter wasthinking.
I don't it was a trap Well,that could be.
That could absolutely be.
But I also know that peoplewant to know how can I avoid
this or how close can I get tothe side of this before I also
am in this trap.
So I can't begin to say why heasked that question, but I know
(30:35):
what Jesus said.
Tell us yeah.
And according to thatparticular translation, that
particular book, jesus said sinis not what you should be
worried about.
There are sinful things thatyou do, which is like harm a
brother, commit adultery, butthat is not who you are Through
your actions.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yes, yes.
And so Jesus is telling us thatthe truth of what we already
know, that we are made in theimage of God, not just the image
of, but we are made of God,that we are made of love.
That is what God is.
God is love, nothing less butthis incredible, radical love,
(31:17):
and we ourselves are made inthat love, and Jesus says that
is the way home.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And I say unto you, miss Heather, Sound like King
James.
Give me more of her spirit,give me more of her anointing,
give me more of that, uh, thatpeace, that, uh that Mary
Magdalene knew um when she methim in the garden that morning
(31:54):
and he said go and tell them.
Yeah, he knew, she knew.
And there we have it she's theapostle.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
And Jesus said go and tell them what you have seen,
what you have witnessed, andthis idea that we also are to
say what we have seen.
We have seen love be greaterthan death.
We have seen love remind us ofthings that we have forgotten.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
We have seen love breathe life into places that
are devoid of breath.
Here is the breath of spiritagain.
Here is the Ruach, here is thespirit who creates out of chaos,
here is the life giver.
And spirit herself tells usthere's more further up, further
(32:56):
in.
There's more, there's more.
There's more than the labelsthat people have given you.
There is things to put down sothat you can receive all of the
riches of the goodness, of thegifts that God has given us, and
the gifts of light, the giftsof love, the gifts of peace and
the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said it's better for youthat I go, because I'm leaving
(33:19):
with you the Spirit.
You have the Spirit with youand the Spirit will teach you
everything that you need to know.
So our job is how do we findthe fragrance?
How do we find?
the frequency of the Spirit.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Well, we had this conversation, a short
conversation, that it can't belearned, that it must be
experienced, and so I think thatmight be a different podcast,
but it's a beautiful questionmaybe for us to end on and to
think about is how do we movefurther up and further in into
(34:00):
the presence you know, movingpast silence and absence and
things that maybe we were toldthat we couldn't experience or
hold you know, into that greaterknowing, into that greater
understanding of that onenesswith Christ?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
I don't think we could capture in a short amount
of time, but I do think that youcould hear us both say taste
and see.
Yes, it is sweet, it is good,it is worth.
Jesus told this parable.
There was a man who found apearl of great price and who
went home and sold everythingfor the pearl and his neighbor
said what are you doing?
That makes no sense.
And I'm telling you there is atreasure, there is something
(34:47):
worth selling everything for andgoing after and saying we'll
give up the dirt and the playand we will hold the precious
and we will be the precious andwe will return to the good.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionistheologycom.
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