August 27, 2024 • 30 mins
Could Mary's gospel offer a more profound understanding of love and faith? On this thought-provoking episode of the Expansionist Podcast, embark on an exploration of Mary Magdalene's life and her unique relationship with Jesus. By reflecting on her actions, like anointing Jesus and proclaiming his resurrection, we invite you to consider how her teachings might inspire new spiritual practices and a deeper connection to the Spirit today.
Shifting our focus, we delve into the rituals and feasts found in the First Testament, emphasizing their importance in preserving spiritual treasures at a cellular level. Through personal anecdotes, such as the serenity found in nature's stillness, we illustrate the necessity of breaking from routine to enrich our spiritual lives. Mary Magdalene’s act of anointing Jesus becomes a powerful model for love and goodness, urging us to pay closer attention to lesser-known stories and the profound power of sacred love that they hold.
Finally, we explore the expansive nature of sacred love at the heart of Mary Magdalene's gospel. By reading excerpts from Megan Watterson's work, we examine how true vision and love transcend the ego, connecting us more deeply with others and the Spirit. We ponder the miraculous survival of the Gospel of Mary and its potential to offer fresh perspectives on Jesus, emphasizing that love, as shown by Jesus, surpasses death and loss. Concluding with a reflection from Hildegard of Bingen on the Holy Spirit's role in creation, we honor Mary Magdalene's lasting impact and the transformative communion with the Spirit that her gospel invites us into.
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Episode Transcript
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Heather Drake (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Shelly Shepherd (00:18):
Good afternoon, Heather Drake.
It's great to be here with youthis week, as we have been
focusing on the Feast of MaryMagdalene.
I'm so excited to talk with youabout this today and hopefully
share some insight that we'regaining as we follow Mary
Magdalene a little bit furtherup and further in.
(00:39):
So welcome to this segment onMary Magdalene this week.
Heather Drake (00:44):
I am in full joy to be here and to be talking
about something that we arediscovering so much light and
love from, and so I'm lookingforward to opening a
conversation, or continuing aconversation, around Mary
Magdalene and her witness ofJesus and her witness of perhaps
(01:04):
a Christianity that hasn't beenlived before, and an invitation
into something deeper, intosomething that we haven't tried.
Shelly Shepherd (01:14):
I love that idea, what you just shared, a
Christianity or an experiencewith Christ or God or spirit
that we have not had before.
Let's talk about that for a fewminutes.
Heather Drake (01:32):
I think sometimes , at some point in a Christian
path or a path of following,there is a place where we can
either choose disillusionment orwe can choose to go farther up
and further in and to be able tosay what does it look like for
us to maybe exchange some higherthoughts or some ways of
(01:55):
looking at things, and not inany way to to be a different
path, but to see a higher way?
I'm reminded of the words inthe scripture that that God
speaks of God's self, when Godsays my ways are not your ways,
my thoughts are not yourthoughts, my ways are so much
higher than your ways.
And so the idea is, I think,more of an invitation to choose
(02:17):
a higher thought, to choose, umuh, uh, love's way of living and
thinking in ways that allow usto ascend.
Hmm.
Shelly Shepherd (02:29):
That makes me think about, um, what dropped in
in into my spirit as, as I waslistening to that is, people
often ask the question does doesGod evolve or does God change?
Or is God the same yesterday,today and forever, and then
never changes?
You know, I like to think thatthese places of expansion that
(02:53):
you and I are spending timeeither unraveling or unfurling
or re-deciding how they fit intoa better story, is this, this
space of seeing God in just onedimension?
I think is is causing me to, orhas caused in the past, this
(03:16):
desire to even expand what Iunderstand, or maybe
misunderstood, about God allalong.
And and one of the questions,um, that I had in my, in my mind
, to to maybe, maybe for us toshare a little bit about as we,
as we jump into Mary Magdalene,the week here with Mary
Magdalene, is this place of umwonderment about if we had been,
(03:44):
if this had been a startingpoint for us, if Mary, if Mary's
work that I believe you and Iunderstand actually was first
her gospel was first publishedin 1955, if we understand that
correctly, if that story hadbeen handed to us in the 60s and
(04:05):
70s and 80s, would we have adifferent reference point about
love, about spirit, about God,based on what we are learning
about how she and Jesus relatedto each other, loved each other,
shared the same table, you knowthose kinds of things.
(04:29):
And here we are this week,towards the end of her feast
week and being intentional aboutthat kind of expansion.
Do you ever think that if thathad been our starting point,
would we be in a different placeright now, spiritually,
emotionally?
Heather Drake (04:49):
I think yeah, I think the answer would be yes,
but I also think the lovingthought would be that, wherever
we are, the invitation of spiritis to come up higher, is to
come up higher.
Wherever we start, theinvitation is into this
fellowship, this triuneawareness, to be able to say
(05:11):
this is the conversation thatstarted before the worlds were
formed.
In the beginning was the wordand in of humankind, in the mind
of God, and so, wherever wefind ourself, starting and I do
(05:34):
think there could have been anadvantage to us if the gospel of
Mary and the words of Mary hadbeen given to us as young people
.
But I'm excited about the factthat we even um are aware of
them now and where we could gofrom here and what it's like to
practice um and to think aboutthe example that Mary set for us
(05:57):
and the invitation that sheshowed us through her uh works
of anointing, through herobedience to Christ when he said
go and tell about theresurrection.
And there is this continuedwork of going and telling the
brothers about this promise thatthere is new life, that old
(06:19):
things, old orders of things,are no longer in place, that
love is eternal and love is theway to life and to experience
God.
So I'm very hopeful about theway that Mary can inspire us to
hear for ourselves, to worktoward the practice of living in
(06:43):
the rituals of anointing.
That perhaps will open up loveto the world in ways that we
haven't acknowledged before.
Shelly Shepherd (06:54):
I love the place that you are thinking
about this right now in regardsto, yeah, maybe we didn't get it
, this introduction to MaryMagdalene, until later in life.
But how can you and I be avessel or a prompting to others,
maybe people our age, maybeyounger, maybe those that are
(07:18):
just starting a spiritualjourney, right Like?
There's something significantabout this time and this
opportunity to say join in onthis expansive love that
seemingly Jesus and MaryMagdalene have expressed over
(07:44):
and over and over with eachother.
That somehow made the boys alittle bit uncomfortable.
Now, whether it was their egos,whether it was hierarchy or
patriarchy that got in the wayof that understanding, we can't
really say for sure.
(08:05):
But there was something aboutMary.
There was something about thesignificance of how she we could
use the word surrender, wecould use the word postured, we
could use the word acknowledgedhis witness in the world and
what he was trying to do.
There was something about Marythat caused this transactional,
(08:30):
transformational moment for herthat you and I have been
learning about for the lastseveral years, and so we've
taken time this week to um, parkourselves in this beautiful
cabin in North Carolina andoffer time to honor her witness
(08:55):
and her life and her apostleshipwith Jesus.
So I'm happy to be herethinking about these things with
you and offering them as maybepathways or hooks, or just
invitations for others to learnabout Mary's work in the world.
Heather Drake (09:19):
One of the things that I have found inspiring is
in the Christian tradition thatI was handed, we did a lot of
reading of the Gospels ofMatthew and Mark, and Luke and
John, and those points of view Ibelieve to be a very reliable
(09:41):
witness of who Jesus was and ourlife of following Jesus maybe
not so much following the rulesof a particular denomination but
the following of Jesus that Ibelieve to be so pure and so
holy in igniting the world fullof love that it was a pretty
(10:04):
limited view, only through theview of these four particular
boys, and to have a gospel thatincludes the view from a woman's
point of view, it feels like abigger picture, like a more
generous orthodoxy to be able tosay look at everyone who
(10:25):
follows and how they follow, andit can be different and it
almost it should be differentfor each person.
But to be able to follow thatgospel into what I see that Mary
does very often, or the witnessthat we see that Mary does, is
the hands on work of love, and Ibelieve that's something that
can be emulated by so manypeople the hands-on work of love
(10:46):
, loving ourselves, loving ourneighbors, loving our enemy.
And Mary provides an examplethat says you know, you might
have to get your hands in here,you might have to bow yourself
here, you might have to putyourself in places where people
don't understand you.
And that's a very hopefulposition for me to say, that
(11:08):
could be what I'm being calledto and that work is absolutely
essential for the work of loveto increase.
Shelly Shepherd (11:15):
So beautiful.
I love that point.
Thank you for bringing thatforward about.
We haven't had a gospel tocompare until the gospel of Mary
shows up.
Heather Drake (11:27):
And again, you mentioned earlier that you know
that it wasn't even publisheduntil the 50s.
And so, though the Gospel ofMary is very old and is well by
scholars, it wasn't there to bepart of the tradition so much
passed down.
And so, you know, not everybook that is immediately
published is worldwide read, youknow.
(11:48):
And then sometimes people havequestions about its validity.
And anyway, here we are now andwe're looking at the witness
that is listed there and we'rere-examining some things, some
ways that we believed, and in noway to diminish what has
actually been gifted to us, butto say and then, or, and here's
(12:12):
more, and here's act two, ofwhat it looks like to love
ourselves, to love the world, tolove God by loving every
beautiful thing that God createdand dwells in.
Those are the kind of ideasthat inspire me to find out more
, to listen more, to seek theSpirit and say where are you and
(12:37):
how can I follow exactly whereyou're going?
Shelly Shepherd (12:39):
You and I have had this week planned for
several months, this weekplanned for for several months,
and um, and one of the reasonsthat we wanted to take time and
focus not just because of ourappreciation of of of the gospel
of Mary and who she was, butalso wondering about is this is
(13:01):
this expandable?
You know, are theseconversations that you and I are
having something that wouldinterest other people?
Or, you know, is there a widercollective?
And we already know that we'renot the first ones talking about
the Gospel of Mary.
It's been widely discussed andmade into movies and all sorts
(13:25):
of things for many years.
But I'm wondering, maybe, if wecould just talk a little bit
about what this means to usindividually.
Why take out this week andfocus on her?
Heather Drake (13:40):
I think one of the things for myself is paying
attention to prioritizing thecontemplative acts and acts of
slowing, acts of savoring, actsof listening.
Those kind of things are notnew to any faith tradition.
In fact, most of them have them.
But Jesus in fact offered usthe idea of when you get
(14:05):
together and you eat and you eatthis bread and drink this that
this is how you are going toremember me, this is how you are
going to come back into acommunion with me.
And so by taking time aside tosay what is what does it look
here?
In fact, in the First Testament,the practices and the rituals
(14:28):
of feasts are because, I believe, our humanity calls us to
remember specific times.
It is why we celebrate holidays,why holy days, it's why we
celebrate birthdays.
It is this idea that in theplanning, in the executing of
special times, it creates aremembering in us, on a cellular
(14:54):
level even.
There's so much that weexperience every day we can't
remember.
And although there seems to bethose things I mean we've had
365 days in the past year and wecertainly do not remember every
single one but if I asked youto remember Easter of this year
or Christmas of last year, wecould bring those days right
into remembrance, and the sameis true for when we set aside
(15:16):
time and we bring it into thesacred realm and we pay
attention to what we're eatingand who we're with, and what
we're thinking or what ourintentions are.
Those are the kind of thingsthat we can remember, rehearse,
go back to and hold thetreasures that Spirit has
deposited to us.
(15:37):
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If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
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(15:58):
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Shelly Shepherd (16:00):
I think for myself this week, for example,
one of the days, uh, it waspouring rain here.
I can't remember which day, Um,maybe it was Wednesday or
Thursday, um, and I found myselfdrawn outside to the rain and I
(16:23):
went out on the porch and justparked myself there, one to make
sure that the trash person gotour trash, but also to just
embrace this differentenvironment, the nature, the
forest, the trees that aresurrounding us, the sound of the
rain, the sound of the rain.
(16:49):
I flew in here from Arizona.
There's not much rain thathappens in Arizona, and
particularly we don't hear therain falling on leaves, on trees
.
And so, as I sat in that moment, I moved myself into a posture
of listening, or receiving, orgiving, which maybe could have
been duplicated somewhere else,in another part of the country
(17:13):
or around a different table.
But I hear you, heather, whenyou say the pausing, the
stillness, the quietness, thesolitude, without the routine.
Right, we haven't had ourregular routine this week, and
it has allowed us to, uh, in themornings, uh, read something
(17:36):
about Mary, to uh, use theanointing oil for someone or
something, um, to to pauseduring the day, whereas if we
hadn't taken this time, it mighthave still honored Mary, but
maybe the fabric of us, thememory that you just talked
(17:58):
about, the remembering, mightnot be as potent or strong, not
be as potent or strong.
And so I think for myself it'sbeen a beautiful week of, and
(18:20):
I'm grateful for the time, butI'm also grateful for this
longing and this yearning tounderstand the love and the
goodness that she somehowmodeled, that touched, that
touched Jesus and that Jesustouched her.
And this has been a beautifulplace to receive and to give
(18:40):
that.
Heather Drake (18:41):
Something that compels me into further study of
this is when Jesus declares tothe people around him after his
anointing by Mary, that you know, wherever my story is told,
this story will be told too, andI've heard a lot of the Jesus
story, or of the story of Jesusthat the four gospels tell those
(19:06):
particular witnesses, but Ihaven't heard the same amount of
the story from other places,amount of the story from other
places, and so I'm payingattention to listening for that
story, the story that tells of awoman who, at great expense,
anointed and this ministry ofanointing that it wasn't just
(19:28):
the one time here she anointshim before the burial and then
you know when she's in thegarden anointing him after the
burial, and the intention thento tell the brothers that there
is a resurrection, that being atype of anointing too, of saying
you can have great hope evenwhen everything looks like it's
(19:50):
dead, even when it looks likethere's no way past this realm.
There's no way past this way ofknowing that Mary offers to us a
way of being and a way ofseeing and a way of connection
to spirit that maybe has beenless practiced than the other
ways, and so I'm incrediblyhopeful that, given focused
(20:16):
attention to the spirit herethat things can transform and
transpire and ignite somepassionate flames of sacred love
between us and the world.
Shelly Shepherd (20:31):
Yeah, you mentioned sacred love.
I'd like us just to lingerthere for a minute in regards to
this is really the epicenter ofMary's gospel is this sacred
love this, you know, love isstronger than death that she
either captured in her gospel.
(20:51):
She either captured in hergospel.
Somebody wrote this down in hergospel story and it has been
passed on to us through thesewords.
This sacred love is such a.
It's a beautiful, beautifulwords, but can we unpack that
(21:20):
for a few few minutes?
What we mean by sacred love?
And was it, was it differentfor mary and jesus than it is
for us right now?
Um, are we talking about thesame kind of love?
Is there only one love?
Um, can we, can we talk aboutthat?
Heather Drake (21:41):
Well, it is in my estimation, that there is not
only one love.
I think that love takes many,many forms, and that requires us
to pay attention to the Spirit,because if you can say that
love is one form or one way,then you can in fact live on
autopilot or live sleepwalking,and the invitation of the Holy
Spirit is to be reawakened, tobe re-enlivened, to catch the
(22:07):
spark of what the Spirit is upto.
And I think that you know fromagain the witness of Scripture,
from the witness of what we see,how Jesus relates to each
individual person differently.
What do you need?
What would you like me to do?
How would you like me to youknow, bring the fullness of this
moment between you and God intobeing?
(22:29):
I think that again inspires meto say I don't get to just say
I'm going to love every singleperson this way, but I need to
say I'm going to love everysingle person and then trust
that the Holy Spirit will showme how to to show that love, how
to demonstrate that love or howto lean into a love that
already exists between you.
(22:51):
Know the people that are hereor the energy that is being
present here, but I reallyhesitate to say there's just one
way to love, because there'sjust too many variations of
people and experiences andthought for us not to be Again.
I think that again, going backto Jesus, and how do you humble
(23:12):
yourself in love?
Love is full of humility, andhumility says I don't know.
Humility says I'm here to betaught.
And meekness.
Meekness says I have the powerto love you, but I'm going to
pay attention to this greatergift.
That says how would you like meto love you?
And again I hear the words ofthe gospel witness that says
(23:34):
when Jesus met people, he saidwhat would you have me do?
People around could probablyassume you know the man with the
paralyzed arm, the man who isblind, the person who is
paraplegic.
And we don't just get to assumethat the healing comes to their
legs.
Jesus gives them this dignity.
That says what do you want?
(23:56):
And I think that in thefollowing that we would ask the
Holy Spirit how do I love thisperson, how do I offer what I
have?
And how do you bless it andanoint it and break it and give
it?
And how are people fed withloaves and fishes?
With loaves and fishes?
Shelly Shepherd (24:17):
It's goodness.
I'd like to read a little bitout of Megan Watterson's work
discussing Mary Magdalene, andjust a little bit of a paragraph
here.
Mary's intimate exchange withChrist in her gospel takes place
from within her Christ tellsher that she's wonderful for
(24:37):
being able to perceive him andthat this capacity to see with
the heart, this true vision, isthe treasure.
This love that sits at the coreof who we are, is what allows
us to become a bridge betweenthe worlds, this love that is
stronger than death, this lovethat reminds us, when we are
(24:59):
bound by a power of the ego,that we are also a soul, this
love that frees us.
The point is to let love reachwhere it has never been before.
To let love reach where it hasnever been before.
And so I think to your point aswell in talking about the
(25:19):
sacredness of love, theexpansiveness of love, the reach
like maybe we have not, as yousaid earlier in the show, we
haven't experienced this form ofChristianity yet.
It's hard to imagine, heather,that we haven't experienced
something as people of faith.
(25:40):
But maybe because we haven'texpanded, because we've been in
this construct, that it's thesefour Gospels and no other Gospel
.
And my hope I do believe it'shopeful that, as more people
read the gospel of Mary and aswe try, as we try to digest it
or even talk about it, sometimesit's it doesn't fit neatly into
(26:06):
the other gospels, which ispossibly why it got left out,
maybe why it got burnt, maybewhy it got lost for lost for so
many millennia.
And yet here we are talkingabout it.
Is that not a miracle in and ofitself?
Is that not love?
That love is stronger thandeath, love is stronger than
being burned, love is strongerthan being lost, and so I am
(26:30):
hopeful that her gospel andthankful that her gospel is in
our hands today, and hopefulthat others will find the gospel
of Mary to be a new branch, anew path, a new way of seeing
(26:52):
Jesus, maybe for the first time.
Heather Drake (26:55):
I don't know who said this particular quote, but
I do remember it to say or toimply this be mindful, be
careful of what you bury,because it may just be a seed.
And perhaps whoever was buryingthis did not understand that
what was being buried was a seed.
(27:17):
And I think that immortal seed,that eternal gift that is its
original, that wholeness, thatreally authentic love that came
(27:42):
through Jesus for humanity sothat we could see what God saw
in us and what God believesabout us, and what the hope of
the kingdom would be that lovewould reign here, about us, and
what the hope of the kingdomwould be that love would reign
here, that in every situation,love would get to make the final
decision.
And I think that the practice ofreturning to ourselves, the
(28:03):
practice of remembering thegoodness that is innate in us,
because we're made in the imageof God, the goodness that dwells
in us and how eternal our soulsare, I think that sometimes the
idea that we are not even fullypresent where we are, we are so
busy with to-do lists andproductivity, instead of
(28:26):
recognizing that in ourbelonging, a result of true
belonging and intention with thebelonging, is that we are
actually becoming and we arebecoming these.
We're becoming who we werealways meant to be, souls that
are fully in tune with theultimate expression that God is
(28:49):
loving the world with at thatmoment, and so I feel so hopeful
I don't feel discouraged at allthat we've been doing it one
way and now the spirit isinviting us and and now, try it
this way, now breathe it thisway.
Now extend your hand instead ofliving in scarcity and in fear,
(29:09):
open up your hands and live ingenerosity, and live in grace
and in grace, and come into thedance that the Spirit is
inviting us to and allow therain of love to soak us, to
drench us, to bring us back intotrue communion, Beautiful.
Shelly Shepherd (29:27):
Thank you so much for this time and thank you
, Mary Magdalene, for youressence and your presence, not
just this week but through themillennia that you have endured
and that you give us a love toexpand and to hold out to others
(29:50):
in such a beautiful way.
Heather Drake (29:52):
And I heard a voice saying to me this lady,
whom you see, is love, who hasher dwelling place in eternity.
When God wished to create theworld, he leaned down and, with
tender love, provided all thatwas needed, as a parent prepares
an inheritance for a child.
And thus, in a mighty blaze,the Lord ordained all his works.
(30:16):
And then creation recognizedits creator in its own form and
appearance and from in thebeginning, when God said, let it
be.
And it came to pass, the meansand the matrix of all creation
was love, because creation wasformed through her in the
twinkling of an eye.
Hildegard of Bingen, on theHoly Spirit.
(30:38):
Thank you, heather, for thistime, grace and much peace
between us.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Shelly Shepherd (00:18):
Good afternoon, Heather Drake.
It's great to be here with youthis week, as we have been
focusing on the Feast of MaryMagdalene.
I'm so excited to talk with youabout this today and hopefully
share some insight that we'regaining as we follow Mary
Magdalene a little bit furtherup and further in.
(00:39):
So welcome to this segment onMary Magdalene this week.
Heather Drake (00:44):
I am in full joy to be here and to be talking
about something that we arediscovering so much light and
love from, and so I'm lookingforward to opening a
conversation, or continuing aconversation, around Mary
Magdalene and her witness ofJesus and her witness of perhaps
(01:04):
a Christianity that hasn't beenlived before, and an invitation
into something deeper, intosomething that we haven't tried.
Shelly Shepherd (01:14):
I love that idea, what you just shared, a
Christianity or an experiencewith Christ or God or spirit
that we have not had before.
Let's talk about that for a fewminutes.
Heather Drake (01:32):
I think sometimes , at some point in a Christian
path or a path of following,there is a place where we can
either choose disillusionment orwe can choose to go farther up
and further in and to be able tosay what does it look like for
us to maybe exchange some higherthoughts or some ways of
(01:55):
looking at things, and not inany way to to be a different
path, but to see a higher way?
I'm reminded of the words inthe scripture that that God
speaks of God's self, when Godsays my ways are not your ways,
my thoughts are not yourthoughts, my ways are so much
higher than your ways.
And so the idea is, I think,more of an invitation to choose
(02:17):
a higher thought, to choose, umuh, uh, love's way of living and
thinking in ways that allow usto ascend.
Hmm.
Shelly Shepherd (02:29):
That makes me think about, um, what dropped in
in into my spirit as, as I waslistening to that is, people
often ask the question does doesGod evolve or does God change?
Or is God the same yesterday,today and forever, and then
never changes?
You know, I like to think thatthese places of expansion that
(02:53):
you and I are spending timeeither unraveling or unfurling
or re-deciding how they fit intoa better story, is this, this
space of seeing God in just onedimension?
I think is is causing me to, orhas caused in the past, this
(03:16):
desire to even expand what Iunderstand, or maybe
misunderstood, about God allalong.
And and one of the questions,um, that I had in my, in my mind
, to to maybe, maybe for us toshare a little bit about as we,
as we jump into Mary Magdalene,the week here with Mary
Magdalene, is this place of umwonderment about if we had been,
(03:44):
if this had been a startingpoint for us, if Mary, if Mary's
work that I believe you and Iunderstand actually was first
her gospel was first publishedin 1955, if we understand that
correctly, if that story hadbeen handed to us in the 60s and
(04:05):
70s and 80s, would we have adifferent reference point about
love, about spirit, about God,based on what we are learning
about how she and Jesus relatedto each other, loved each other,
shared the same table, you knowthose kinds of things.
(04:29):
And here we are this week,towards the end of her feast
week and being intentional aboutthat kind of expansion.
Do you ever think that if thathad been our starting point,
would we be in a different placeright now, spiritually,
emotionally?
Heather Drake (04:49):
I think yeah, I think the answer would be yes,
but I also think the lovingthought would be that, wherever
we are, the invitation of spiritis to come up higher, is to
come up higher.
Wherever we start, theinvitation is into this
fellowship, this triuneawareness, to be able to say
(05:11):
this is the conversation thatstarted before the worlds were
formed.
In the beginning was the wordand in of humankind, in the mind
of God, and so, wherever wefind ourself, starting and I do
(05:34):
think there could have been anadvantage to us if the gospel of
Mary and the words of Mary hadbeen given to us as young people
.
But I'm excited about the factthat we even um are aware of
them now and where we could gofrom here and what it's like to
practice um and to think aboutthe example that Mary set for us
(05:57):
and the invitation that sheshowed us through her uh works
of anointing, through herobedience to Christ when he said
go and tell about theresurrection.
And there is this continuedwork of going and telling the
brothers about this promise thatthere is new life, that old
(06:19):
things, old orders of things,are no longer in place, that
love is eternal and love is theway to life and to experience
God.
So I'm very hopeful about theway that Mary can inspire us to
hear for ourselves, to worktoward the practice of living in
(06:43):
the rituals of anointing.
That perhaps will open up loveto the world in ways that we
haven't acknowledged before.
Shelly Shepherd (06:54):
I love the place that you are thinking
about this right now in regardsto, yeah, maybe we didn't get it
, this introduction to MaryMagdalene, until later in life.
But how can you and I be avessel or a prompting to others,
maybe people our age, maybeyounger, maybe those that are
(07:18):
just starting a spiritualjourney, right Like?
There's something significantabout this time and this
opportunity to say join in onthis expansive love that
seemingly Jesus and MaryMagdalene have expressed over
(07:44):
and over and over with eachother.
That somehow made the boys alittle bit uncomfortable.
Now, whether it was their egos,whether it was hierarchy or
patriarchy that got in the wayof that understanding, we can't
really say for sure.
(08:05):
But there was something aboutMary.
There was something about thesignificance of how she we could
use the word surrender, wecould use the word postured, we
could use the word acknowledgedhis witness in the world and
what he was trying to do.
There was something about Marythat caused this transactional,
(08:30):
transformational moment for herthat you and I have been
learning about for the lastseveral years, and so we've
taken time this week to um, parkourselves in this beautiful
cabin in North Carolina andoffer time to honor her witness
(08:55):
and her life and her apostleshipwith Jesus.
So I'm happy to be herethinking about these things with
you and offering them as maybepathways or hooks, or just
invitations for others to learnabout Mary's work in the world.
Heather Drake (09:19):
One of the things that I have found inspiring is
in the Christian tradition thatI was handed, we did a lot of
reading of the Gospels ofMatthew and Mark, and Luke and
John, and those points of view Ibelieve to be a very reliable
(09:41):
witness of who Jesus was and ourlife of following Jesus maybe
not so much following the rulesof a particular denomination but
the following of Jesus that Ibelieve to be so pure and so
holy in igniting the world fullof love that it was a pretty
(10:04):
limited view, only through theview of these four particular
boys, and to have a gospel thatincludes the view from a woman's
point of view, it feels like abigger picture, like a more
generous orthodoxy to be able tosay look at everyone who
(10:25):
follows and how they follow, andit can be different and it
almost it should be differentfor each person.
But to be able to follow thatgospel into what I see that Mary
does very often, or the witnessthat we see that Mary does, is
the hands on work of love, and Ibelieve that's something that
can be emulated by so manypeople the hands-on work of love
(10:46):
, loving ourselves, loving ourneighbors, loving our enemy.
And Mary provides an examplethat says you know, you might
have to get your hands in here,you might have to bow yourself
here, you might have to putyourself in places where people
don't understand you.
And that's a very hopefulposition for me to say, that
(11:08):
could be what I'm being calledto and that work is absolutely
essential for the work of loveto increase.
Shelly Shepherd (11:15):
So beautiful.
I love that point.
Thank you for bringing thatforward about.
We haven't had a gospel tocompare until the gospel of Mary
shows up.
Heather Drake (11:27):
And again, you mentioned earlier that you know
that it wasn't even publisheduntil the 50s.
And so, though the Gospel ofMary is very old and is well by
scholars, it wasn't there to bepart of the tradition so much
passed down.
And so, you know, not everybook that is immediately
published is worldwide read, youknow.
(11:48):
And then sometimes people havequestions about its validity.
And anyway, here we are now andwe're looking at the witness
that is listed there and we'rere-examining some things, some
ways that we believed, and in noway to diminish what has
actually been gifted to us, butto say and then, or, and here's
(12:12):
more, and here's act two, ofwhat it looks like to love
ourselves, to love the world, tolove God by loving every
beautiful thing that God createdand dwells in.
Those are the kind of ideasthat inspire me to find out more
, to listen more, to seek theSpirit and say where are you and
(12:37):
how can I follow exactly whereyou're going?
Shelly Shepherd (12:39):
You and I have had this week planned for
several months, this weekplanned for for several months,
and um, and one of the reasonsthat we wanted to take time and
focus not just because of ourappreciation of of of the gospel
of Mary and who she was, butalso wondering about is this is
(13:01):
this expandable?
You know, are theseconversations that you and I are
having something that wouldinterest other people?
Or, you know, is there a widercollective?
And we already know that we'renot the first ones talking about
the Gospel of Mary.
It's been widely discussed andmade into movies and all sorts
(13:25):
of things for many years.
But I'm wondering, maybe, if wecould just talk a little bit
about what this means to usindividually.
Why take out this week andfocus on her?
Heather Drake (13:40):
I think one of the things for myself is paying
attention to prioritizing thecontemplative acts and acts of
slowing, acts of savoring, actsof listening.
Those kind of things are notnew to any faith tradition.
In fact, most of them have them.
But Jesus in fact offered usthe idea of when you get
(14:05):
together and you eat and you eatthis bread and drink this that
this is how you are going toremember me, this is how you are
going to come back into acommunion with me.
And so by taking time aside tosay what is what does it look
here?
In fact, in the First Testament,the practices and the rituals
(14:28):
of feasts are because, I believe, our humanity calls us to
remember specific times.
It is why we celebrate holidays,why holy days, it's why we
celebrate birthdays.
It is this idea that in theplanning, in the executing of
special times, it creates aremembering in us, on a cellular
(14:54):
level even.
There's so much that weexperience every day we can't
remember.
And although there seems to bethose things I mean we've had
365 days in the past year and wecertainly do not remember every
single one but if I asked youto remember Easter of this year
or Christmas of last year, wecould bring those days right
into remembrance, and the sameis true for when we set aside
(15:16):
time and we bring it into thesacred realm and we pay
attention to what we're eatingand who we're with, and what
we're thinking or what ourintentions are.
Those are the kind of thingsthat we can remember, rehearse,
go back to and hold thetreasures that Spirit has
deposited to us.
(15:37):
In that memory, we want topause and take a moment and let
you know how glad we are thatyou've joined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
(15:58):
expansionistheologycom.
Shelly Shepherd (16:00):
I think for myself this week, for example,
one of the days, uh, it waspouring rain here.
I can't remember which day, Um,maybe it was Wednesday or
Thursday, um, and I found myselfdrawn outside to the rain and I
(16:23):
went out on the porch and justparked myself there, one to make
sure that the trash person gotour trash, but also to just
embrace this differentenvironment, the nature, the
forest, the trees that aresurrounding us, the sound of the
rain, the sound of the rain.
(16:49):
I flew in here from Arizona.
There's not much rain thathappens in Arizona, and
particularly we don't hear therain falling on leaves, on trees
.
And so, as I sat in that moment, I moved myself into a posture
of listening, or receiving, orgiving, which maybe could have
been duplicated somewhere else,in another part of the country
(17:13):
or around a different table.
But I hear you, heather, whenyou say the pausing, the
stillness, the quietness, thesolitude, without the routine.
Right, we haven't had ourregular routine this week, and
it has allowed us to, uh, in themornings, uh, read something
(17:36):
about Mary, to uh, use theanointing oil for someone or
something, um, to to pauseduring the day, whereas if we
hadn't taken this time, it mighthave still honored Mary, but
maybe the fabric of us, thememory that you just talked
(17:58):
about, the remembering, mightnot be as potent or strong, not
be as potent or strong.
And so I think for myself it'sbeen a beautiful week of, and
(18:20):
I'm grateful for the time, butI'm also grateful for this
longing and this yearning tounderstand the love and the
goodness that she somehowmodeled, that touched, that
touched Jesus and that Jesustouched her.
And this has been a beautifulplace to receive and to give
(18:40):
that.
Heather Drake (18:41):
Something that compels me into further study of
this is when Jesus declares tothe people around him after his
anointing by Mary, that you know, wherever my story is told,
this story will be told too, andI've heard a lot of the Jesus
story, or of the story of Jesusthat the four gospels tell those
(19:06):
particular witnesses, but Ihaven't heard the same amount of
the story from other places,amount of the story from other
places, and so I'm payingattention to listening for that
story, the story that tells of awoman who, at great expense,
anointed and this ministry ofanointing that it wasn't just
(19:28):
the one time here she anointshim before the burial and then
you know when she's in thegarden anointing him after the
burial, and the intention thento tell the brothers that there
is a resurrection, that being atype of anointing too, of saying
you can have great hope evenwhen everything looks like it's
(19:50):
dead, even when it looks likethere's no way past this realm.
There's no way past this way ofknowing that Mary offers to us a
way of being and a way ofseeing and a way of connection
to spirit that maybe has beenless practiced than the other
ways, and so I'm incrediblyhopeful that, given focused
(20:16):
attention to the spirit herethat things can transform and
transpire and ignite somepassionate flames of sacred love
between us and the world.
Shelly Shepherd (20:31):
Yeah, you mentioned sacred love.
I'd like us just to lingerthere for a minute in regards to
this is really the epicenter ofMary's gospel is this sacred
love this, you know, love isstronger than death that she
either captured in her gospel.
(20:51):
She either captured in hergospel.
Somebody wrote this down in hergospel story and it has been
passed on to us through thesewords.
This sacred love is such a.
It's a beautiful, beautifulwords, but can we unpack that
(21:20):
for a few few minutes?
What we mean by sacred love?
And was it, was it differentfor mary and jesus than it is
for us right now?
Um, are we talking about thesame kind of love?
Is there only one love?
Um, can we, can we talk aboutthat?
Heather Drake (21:41):
Well, it is in my estimation, that there is not
only one love.
I think that love takes many,many forms, and that requires us
to pay attention to the Spirit,because if you can say that
love is one form or one way,then you can in fact live on
autopilot or live sleepwalking,and the invitation of the Holy
Spirit is to be reawakened, tobe re-enlivened, to catch the
(22:07):
spark of what the Spirit is upto.
And I think that you know fromagain the witness of Scripture,
from the witness of what we see,how Jesus relates to each
individual person differently.
What do you need?
What would you like me to do?
How would you like me to youknow, bring the fullness of this
moment between you and God intobeing?
(22:29):
I think that again inspires meto say I don't get to just say
I'm going to love every singleperson this way, but I need to
say I'm going to love everysingle person and then trust
that the Holy Spirit will showme how to to show that love, how
to demonstrate that love or howto lean into a love that
already exists between you.
(22:51):
Know the people that are hereor the energy that is being
present here, but I reallyhesitate to say there's just one
way to love, because there'sjust too many variations of
people and experiences andthought for us not to be Again.
I think that again, going backto Jesus, and how do you humble
(23:12):
yourself in love?
Love is full of humility, andhumility says I don't know.
Humility says I'm here to betaught.
And meekness.
Meekness says I have the powerto love you, but I'm going to
pay attention to this greatergift.
That says how would you like meto love you?
And again I hear the words ofthe gospel witness that says
(23:34):
when Jesus met people, he saidwhat would you have me do?
People around could probablyassume you know the man with the
paralyzed arm, the man who isblind, the person who is
paraplegic.
And we don't just get to assumethat the healing comes to their
legs.
Jesus gives them this dignity.
That says what do you want?
(23:56):
And I think that in thefollowing that we would ask the
Holy Spirit how do I love thisperson, how do I offer what I
have?
And how do you bless it andanoint it and break it and give
it?
And how are people fed withloaves and fishes?
With loaves and fishes?
Shelly Shepherd (24:17):
It's goodness.
I'd like to read a little bitout of Megan Watterson's work
discussing Mary Magdalene, andjust a little bit of a paragraph
here.
Mary's intimate exchange withChrist in her gospel takes place
from within her Christ tellsher that she's wonderful for
(24:37):
being able to perceive him andthat this capacity to see with
the heart, this true vision, isthe treasure.
This love that sits at the coreof who we are, is what allows
us to become a bridge betweenthe worlds, this love that is
stronger than death, this lovethat reminds us, when we are
(24:59):
bound by a power of the ego,that we are also a soul, this
love that frees us.
The point is to let love reachwhere it has never been before.
To let love reach where it hasnever been before.
And so I think to your point aswell in talking about the
(25:19):
sacredness of love, theexpansiveness of love, the reach
like maybe we have not, as yousaid earlier in the show, we
haven't experienced this form ofChristianity yet.
It's hard to imagine, heather,that we haven't experienced
something as people of faith.
(25:40):
But maybe because we haven'texpanded, because we've been in
this construct, that it's thesefour Gospels and no other Gospel
.
And my hope I do believe it'shopeful that, as more people
read the gospel of Mary and aswe try, as we try to digest it
or even talk about it, sometimesit's it doesn't fit neatly into
(26:06):
the other gospels, which ispossibly why it got left out,
maybe why it got burnt, maybewhy it got lost for lost for so
many millennia.
And yet here we are talkingabout it.
Is that not a miracle in and ofitself?
Is that not love?
That love is stronger thandeath, love is stronger than
being burned, love is strongerthan being lost, and so I am
(26:30):
hopeful that her gospel andthankful that her gospel is in
our hands today, and hopefulthat others will find the gospel
of Mary to be a new branch, anew path, a new way of seeing
(26:52):
Jesus, maybe for the first time.
Heather Drake (26:55):
I don't know who said this particular quote, but
I do remember it to say or toimply this be mindful, be
careful of what you bury,because it may just be a seed.
And perhaps whoever was buryingthis did not understand that
what was being buried was a seed.
(27:17):
And I think that immortal seed,that eternal gift that is its
original, that wholeness, thatreally authentic love that came
(27:42):
through Jesus for humanity sothat we could see what God saw
in us and what God believesabout us, and what the hope of
the kingdom would be that lovewould reign here, about us, and
what the hope of the kingdomwould be that love would reign
here, that in every situation,love would get to make the final
decision.
And I think that the practice ofreturning to ourselves, the
(28:03):
practice of remembering thegoodness that is innate in us,
because we're made in the imageof God, the goodness that dwells
in us and how eternal our soulsare, I think that sometimes the
idea that we are not even fullypresent where we are, we are so
busy with to-do lists andproductivity, instead of
(28:26):
recognizing that in ourbelonging, a result of true
belonging and intention with thebelonging, is that we are
actually becoming and we arebecoming these.
We're becoming who we werealways meant to be, souls that
are fully in tune with theultimate expression that God is
(28:49):
loving the world with at thatmoment, and so I feel so hopeful
I don't feel discouraged at allthat we've been doing it one
way and now the spirit isinviting us and and now, try it
this way, now breathe it thisway.
Now extend your hand instead ofliving in scarcity and in fear,
(29:09):
open up your hands and live ingenerosity, and live in grace
and in grace, and come into thedance that the Spirit is
inviting us to and allow therain of love to soak us, to
drench us, to bring us back intotrue communion, Beautiful.
Shelly Shepherd (29:27):
Thank you so much for this time and thank you
, Mary Magdalene, for youressence and your presence, not
just this week but through themillennia that you have endured
and that you give us a love toexpand and to hold out to others
(29:50):
in such a beautiful way.
Heather Drake (29:52):
And I heard a voice saying to me this lady,
whom you see, is love, who hasher dwelling place in eternity.
When God wished to create theworld, he leaned down and, with
tender love, provided all thatwas needed, as a parent prepares
an inheritance for a child.
And thus, in a mighty blaze,the Lord ordained all his works.
(30:16):
And then creation recognizedits creator in its own form and
appearance and from in thebeginning, when God said, let it
be.
And it came to pass, the meansand the matrix of all creation
was love, because creation wasformed through her in the
twinkling of an eye.
Hildegard of Bingen, on theHoly Spirit.
(30:38):
Thank you, heather, for thistime, grace and much peace
between us.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
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