April 3, 2025 • 49 mins
What if everything you thought you knew about sin was actually keeping you from experiencing true joy? In this thought-provoking episode, Shelley and Heather challenge conventional religious narratives around sin, offering a liberating perspective that centers on love rather than separation.
The conversation begins with a simple yet profound question: Do we need to confess sin to experience joy? This launches us into an exploration of original blessing versus original sin, inviting listeners to consider themselves as fundamentally loved and connected rather than inherently flawed and separate. Drawing from mystics like Julian of Norwich and scriptural wisdom, the hosts redefine sin not as moral failure but as "the essence of that which falls short of God's love."
For those who have felt burdened by religious systems focused on "sin management," this episode offers a healing alternative. Together, the hosts examine how confession can become not a burden but an awareness of both "what we have done and what we have left undone," particularly in addressing systemic injustice.
Through the parable of the Good Samaritan and Jesus's consistent challenging of religious laws, we see how love transcends boundaries and categories. The episode culminates in a moving reading of 1 Corinthians 13, reminding us that love remains when all else fades away.
Whether you're deconstructing from harmful religious teaching, seeking a more expansive spirituality, or simply curious about a different perspective on sin and love, this conversation invites you to return to love as your center. Join the community at expansionisttheology.com and discover how embracing original blessing can transform your relationship with yourself, others, and the divine.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Hello, my friend.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hello, shelley Shepard.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast, it's so
good to see you today, sograteful to be in your presence
and for us to have thisopportunity to spend some time
thinking about things that arelovely, true and of a good
report.
So we have been between usthinking about things that will
(00:43):
expand our capacity to feel love, to be love, to sense love, to
further on the journey of love,and I'm excited for us to share
it with the listeners today.
You texted me the other day andasked a question and your
question was do you think thatyou have to confess sin in order
(01:06):
to feel joy or to experiencejoy?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yes, or to get to joy .
Do we have?
To acknowledge sin in order toget to joy.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
So today we want to talk about sin.
Isn't that such a beautifulthing?
I would have absolutely notbeen interested in any kind of
talk of this a few years ago andnow I feel like I can talk
about it with a lot of joy, infact, with a lot of hope, with a
lot of ease and lightness,versus the burden that sometimes
the word and the connotationsthat have been around it have
(01:40):
led us into have led us into.
And while we recognize that sinor separation is an absolute,
enormous topic and we do nottake it lightly, but I am just
excited about the fact that wecan tell a better story, that we
can tell the story that God hasbeen telling and that love has
(02:01):
been showing us since the verybeginning.
So talk to me for a minuteabout why you had that question,
or how it came to you, or whatyou were hoping to find when you
asked me, just random, out ofthe blue do we have to confess
sin in order to experience joy?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Wow, my mind went so many places as I was thinking.
And I don't know, maybe duringthe season of Lent, when we're
thinking about, you know, prayerand fasting and gifts of
generosity or serving others,you know, sometimes repentance
comes up in that process orconfession.
(02:41):
And I was sitting with the withthat notion wondering.
I was wondering like wonderwhat Heather would think about
that question, and so I justtexted you and of course she's
like what do you mean by sin?
What is sin?
And then that starts a wholelike trajectory of thought and
(03:01):
and other conversation around it.
But you mentioned here justright now in this introduction
that a few years ago youwouldn't have been as
comfortable having thisconversation.
And so I'm wondering friends, myfriends, and I believe that you
have friends who are alsodeconstructing from their faith
(03:26):
in ways that have either causedtrauma or chaos or they've just
completely left the church,because you know a variety of
reasons.
But one of the reasons that Ifeel like we have such a hard
(03:46):
time talking about sin is thatwe have this image or have been
told a story about what sin is,that it separates us from the
one who loves us completely, andso if I have this
(04:07):
unacknowledged sin in my life,then I'm a bad person.
I can't get to joy, I can't,you know, I can't see abundance,
and I can't certainly give thatto other people if I have some
sort of sin that I haven'tacknowledged or confessed, and
so I think this is going to be awildly good topic for us to
(04:32):
dive into today, so maybe sharewith us what has changed in just
a couple of years that you'reable to now talk about this.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Well, I would have been able to talk about it
before, but it would have beennow talk about this.
Well, I would have been able totalk about it before, but it
would have been, I feel, like aheavy burden.
I feel like it would have beenyoking to something that was
even more difficult, even moreoppressive, and so I want to
first maybe push back a littlebit on.
We know people who aredeconstructing, and I agree with
(05:03):
that, but I don't think they'redeconstructing their faith.
I think they're deconstructingfrom religious systems that have
added to weights.
I think that people's faith issecure in the fact that they
know that there is more, thatthere has to be something better
and more beautiful and moreinclusive, and I can see that
more heavenly in the idea ofthat but that religious systems
(05:34):
and religion in itself havehanded to us very.
I can see that, and so I thinkthat, well, I know that, growing
up, and the first like anawareness of sin I had, and what
sin was told to me was that itwasn't a perfection, that it
wasn't what you were supposed to, there was like a standard, and
(05:55):
the list was long.
I was raised in the Pentecostalholiness church and I'm telling
you Absolutely.
I mean you look left.
We had the list, yeah, but itwas long.
I mean there are some peoplewho have shorter lists and I'm
like you know, no lipstick, youcan't cut your hair.
So the list was not only in theissues of outer living, but
(06:16):
also in inner living, in a factthat an awareness of sin
absolutely, I think, caused meto almost diminish myself as
opposed to live fully into theresurrected invitation that
Jesus offers us, and itcertainly taught me a lot about
judgment, taught me about my ownjudgment for myself and how to
(06:39):
judge others, because there wasthis standard of sin.
So this topic is not somethingthat you and I have flippantly
come into.
It's certainly that time thatwe've spent listening to the
Spirit retell us the story.
Where you and I both have comeis to an understanding that we
(06:59):
are people made in the image oforiginal blessing, that we are
not starting from original sin.
We are starting from a blessedposition, from a position where
we are loved, delighted in, andthat we are full image bearers.
And so that is not the positionthat I originally grew up in,
but it is a place where theSpirit has allowed me to expand
(07:23):
and has converted or invitedinto something so much more and
allows liberation for not onlymy spirit, but for the spirit of
the world, for the spirit ofothers who are around me, for
the good and for the benefit ofall.
And I believe that that's wherewisdom leads us is not only to
(07:43):
our own freedom.
I believe that that's wherewisdom leads us is not only to
our own freedom, but for thefreedom of every other person
that is enslaved with a thoughtthat keeps them connected to an
idea or an illusion that hasbeen gifted to them by something
in this world.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Very interesting.
I want to go back to yourthought on we don't deconstruct
our faith, we deconstructreligion.
Can we sit there for a minute,sure, sure, do you disagree?
No, I don't necessarilydisagree with that, but what do
you call moving away from onefaith or religion to a different
(08:21):
one, like if I was Baptist andthen I went to Catholicism?
Do I have to deconstruct somefaith and practice or
understanding, or do I have tolay down some things?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, Two of the things that you mentioned are,
you know, systems that men havecreated, and what I am alluding
to is the fact that in Genesis,chapter one, where it talks
about the spirit that hovers orbroods over the chaos, there are
so many times in our thoughtsand in the systems that we
participate in, in our humanityand in our worldview, where it
(08:58):
leads just to further chaos,further darkness.
And when the Spirit comes in,when there is a revelation of
the Spirit, I think that thereis an invitation for us to
follow light, for us to followthe Holy Spirit and for us to
experience what Jesus offered us, with a renewing of our mind,
with a repentance, a life ofliving something believing
(09:21):
differently, turning around froma way of thought, joining the
thoughts of God, when God infact explains to us that God's
ways are so much higher than ourways, and so it's an invitation
into an ascension, it's aninvitation into so much higher
thought, a thought that comesnot from scarcity, not from fear
(09:44):
, but a thought that comes fromthe divine love, that comes from
the voice of God, who hascalled us image bearers, who has
called us one with God, and Ilove the prayer that Jesus
prayed for us in John when hesays Father, make them one Like
you and I are one make them oneand let
(10:06):
them know that you love themlike you love me.
And so I think that's a reallygreat place to be able to bring
our understanding of sin, to beable to say can what I believe
about sin right now allow me tobelieve that I am loved the same
way that Jesus is loved?
Because this illusion of sin,this illusion of separateness,
(10:27):
and allow me to believe that Iam loved the same way that Jesus
is loved?
Because this illusion of sin,this illusion of separateness,
usually comes to us with thethought but I have already
committed, I've already donethese things or not done these
things, and so I cannot be lovedthe way that Jesus is loved.
And so I think that any timethat we contradict the prayers
of Jesus, it should be suspectto us.
A little kind of tick shouldcome off in our head.
I need to question that.
(10:48):
And so this invitation to a newway of viewing the salvation of
God, the new way of viewing thework that Jesus has done for the
whole world In John again,chapter 3,.
(11:09):
For God so loved the world thathe sent his one and only
begotten son that whoeverbelieved in the way of Jesus, in
Jesus, would not perish buthave eternal life, because God
did not send Jesus into theworld to condemn the world, but
that the world, through Jesus,would be saved.
And so that, to me, is such abeautiful invitation of how the
salvation enters the world, notjust, I think, for a long time,
(11:29):
saved from what Heather Savedfrom what, well, let's talk
about I mean that's I thinkthat's another whole podcast,
Shelley but the salvation.
Salvation that we'reexperiencing, where we're
experiencing true life, wherewe're experiencing our full
humanity, where we'reexperiencing life in the kingdom
, where we're participating withJesus and with spirit in
bringing and ushering thekingdom here on earth.
(11:51):
And so salvation, notnecessarily just from sin,
although it's a part of that andthe salvation.
What I mean by that, or whatI'm practicing, is a rejection
of an illusion of separation,that I am not separate from the
love of God, I am not separatefrom inclusion.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
There's where I was hoping you would go with this,
because the whole premise of sinentering into the world through
humanity started with thisnotion of separation or a
separateness now.
So, now that I'm separateoriginal sin, it's hard for me
(12:34):
to see that story as originalblessing or, in Hildegard's
words, original wisdom.
And so if I can lean intooriginal blessing or original
wisdom and understand that I'venever been separated, then there
is a different story about sinthat we have to tell.
(12:55):
Perhaps we're not the firstones to talk about this for
crying out loud, and how manycommentaries and theologians and
researchers have belabored thisparticular topic?
Let me read this quote, and Idon't have a name for it.
This person said sin is theessence of that which falls
(13:16):
short of God's love.
Now I'm looking at the queen oflove right now.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Always pushing.
I hope it's me.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Always pushing love down the stream.
I am.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I am force feeding love to everyone, but this is
the essence.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Sin is the essence of that which falls short of God's
love.
Now, if we unpack that, we havethis opportunity of love within
us.
It sits around our heart oraround our soul or in our mind
and we reach out to receive it,we reach out to touch it, we
reach out to unify with it, asJulian, one of the mystics, is
(14:00):
teaching us right now in her 16showings.
Her revelations that she hadwith this love, right Like.
This is what her whole book isabout, is this dance and this
engagement with love.
And what's interesting in thatparticular book is that she
points us to this one of theshowings.
(14:22):
As I just asked love.
I asked love, what is sin?
Where is sin?
What does it look like?
I need to know these things.
You know, I'm of this RomanCatholic stature and I want to
be able to see.
Can you just explain this to me?
And love says to her there isnone, there is no sin.
(14:44):
And then we fast forward.
Oh, we go back to MaryMagdalene.
We go back to Mary Magdaleneand her gospel, and she's saying
the same thing when she isapproached in this conversation
between Peter and Jesus and, Ibelieve, and Levi, or, yeah,
(15:04):
Levi, what is sin?
And Jesus says there is no sin.
And so if we have thesedifferent accounts, if a
theologian or a pastor or apreacher or teacher or
researcher can look at aparticular passage in any text
of the tradition and come upwith five different translations
(15:28):
or interpretations for that,then what that says to me as an
individual is, when I look atsin as it has been taught or put
into my hands or preached weekafter week, I have an
opportunity to attach thatmeaning to my life, or in some
(15:50):
kind of deconstructive ormodified way of looking at an
expansive faith.
Jesus says to Mary Magdaleneyour faith has made you whole.
She didn't enter the room towash Jesus's feet knowing that
she would be forgiven.
She entered the room to washJesus's feet and to anoint them
(16:18):
because of love.
The love within her reached outto the love for him and the act
was created.
And then we know the story.
Anytime this story is told, hername will be attached to it.
And so, as we hold this spacetoday and thinking about, you
(16:38):
know these stronger words ofrepentance and salvation, and
even sin From an expansionistperspective, if I can't get to
the essence of that which fallsshort of God's love as the
definition for sin, then I needa new definition.
(17:00):
I think if we're going to tella better story about sin,
Heather, maybe we have to find anew definition, or at least in
my case, I'm looking for a newdefinition.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
The idea that sin is an illusion of separation brings
us to an awareness of thepromise and of the fulfillment
of the promise that God is withus always.
People have said to me, since Iwas little and growing up, you
know, like if you sin, then youremove yourself from the
(17:33):
presence of God.
Your sin does not allow thepresence to be there, and I just
want to tell you what a terrorthat is.
Yes, to feel like that youcould do something that would
remove you from presence, thepresence of love, and the
scripture even reminds us thereis no fear in love, that God is
(17:53):
love, and so when we are handedany kind of thought that
produces in us a terror or afear, it should be questioned.
And this promise of Godthroughout history, throughout
understanding of the presence ofGod, of love, of the work of
(18:15):
Christ and Jesus's manifestationhere on the earth, is a
complete understanding that weare always, always loved.
In fact, the Apostle Paul saidthis is what I want for you, and
I want it for everyone to knowthat there is nothing that you
could do that would separate youfrom the love of God, yes.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Why is that so hard for us to believe that?
Why is it so hard?
Because we've been told thatsin separates.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yes, absolutely.
So.
Here's the illusion.
We have been taught wrongly andthat happens, and so we do have
to again.
This is the Jesus way.
You have heard it said but, I,say unto you that it is simply
an illusion that we would beseparated from God, that we have
this eternal parent that wouldin any way turn their back on us
(19:02):
, that we are always part ofwhat God is doing and what God
continues to do and how Godreveals God's self and how the
presence of God is with us inthe world.
But this idea that we wouldnever be separate from love.
Now we can forget love, we canturn from love, we can act
(19:24):
outside of love.
I mean, we're in a currentpolitical situation right now
and people are acting veryunlovingly toward each other.
This already happened in earlygenesis, where brothers are
fighting and then one brotherkills another.
I mean, there is an absence oflove there, there is an illusion
of I am separate from you andso I will inflict this pain upon
(19:44):
you and the understanding and Ibelieve this is why Jesus
prayed this for us Father, makethem one and let them know that
they're loved by you the sameway that you love me.
I think, those two things inparticular the oneness and the
illusion of separateness, andthe truth of we are one, we are
(20:06):
one in God, we are one throughChrist, we are one with each
other, we are one with theuniverse and with nature and
with all of the things that Godcreated, that we are not
separate from those things andwe are not even separate from
ourselves.
I think a lot of times, a falseidea of sin that says that it's
(20:27):
a list of moral rules that youmust follow actually asks us
that behave in a certain way orthink a certain thought, that we
begin to resent those things.
(20:47):
As opposed to what you talkedabout earlier in the podcast,
this invitation intowholeheartedness, into wholeness
and I believe this is the planof salvation that we would be
people who live and exist andminister and open tables of
hospitality out of a place ofwholeness, that we say to the
(21:10):
world that is broken and lost ina nightmare or illusion come
home, return to love, come backto the radical love of God that
makes all things new.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
It's such a beautiful , expansive way to look at a
relationship with God is througha lens of love rather than a
lens of sin and separation, andit makes me think about.
It's been a while since I'velooked at this work by Cynthia
Bourgeau, but she talks aboutthe center, cynthia Bourgeau,
(21:47):
but she talks about the center.
You know, what's at the centerof us, what is at the core of
our being, is a place that theworld cannot touch, that
whatever is happening around uscannot touch.
It's like it's reserved forthis love relationship between
ourselves and God.
And I'm probably, you know,messing up her intentional
(22:10):
theology to us.
But the point is, if we can'tunderstand that love is at our
core, it just seems so simple tous.
Maybe and maybe love is toosimple.
Simple to us, maybe and maybelove is too simple, but I find
(22:30):
that it's it's complicated andit's it's not easy, um, to
sometimes erase the thoughts ofseparation.
You know things that I havesaid or done, and we'll get to
that prayer of confession in aminute.
I think we should talk aboutthat and we kind of we beat
ourselves.
You know, we beat ourselves upInstead of being at this, at the
(22:52):
center, and Cynthia says it inthis way is that it's not.
It's not that image of thearcher.
You know that's used in theGreek, where sin is missing the
mark.
Yes, that's been one of themetaphors that has been used for
us to understand what sin is.
(23:13):
But Cynthia contrasts that withalignment and attunement.
When you get too far off centerright and you don't hear, you
know the pings in the snowbankanymore and the radar's not
going off or you know thereminder's not happening, then
we have to align ourselves backto center, where the love exists
(23:38):
, where it's always existed.
But she does a beautiful job.
I can't remember which bookthat is in, maybe Jesus Wisdom.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I don't know if I'm pulling it from the right place,
but it's a beautiful way to getto a different definition of
learning to tell a better storyin as much conflict with the
idea, if you understand that,missing the mark, if the mark is
(24:06):
love, if the mark is a set ofmoral code, if the mark is a
particular denomination, if themark is something like that,
then I think it doesn't work.
But if the center, like you'recalling us to, if the center is
love, then 100% that still works.
If you do anything out of theessence of or the understanding
(24:27):
of what is loving to, would be aplace of so much love that it
(24:47):
would be a place of return forevery single person.
Welcome at the table of God,Welcome into the presence of God
.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
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If you're enjoying this podcast,consider sharing it with a
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We are that you've joined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
(25:08):
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And if you found theconversation intriguing and want
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expansionistheologycom.
Let's talk about the originalquestion that you posted a few
weeks ago going what about theconfession?
Do you have to confess this?
And let's talk about the beautyin confession and let's talk
about where it's leading us into.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Very helpful yeah for sure, yeah, so maybe people are
familiar.
In some traditions they havethis prayer of confession before
communion and often in aliturgical service.
But part of the confession isthat we recognize, um, we take
the posture of recognizing thatwe are coming to confess things
(25:51):
that we have done and thingsthat we have left undone.
Right, so, wow, the things thatI've done, I'm pretty clear
about, uh, that list.
But what about the things thatI have left undone?
I'm confessing this every week,that I'm taking this posture
(26:12):
and asking forgiveness for whatI have done or what I have said
or how I might have treatedsomebody, or let my fire get out
of control, whatever the casemight be.
Um, but the undone things, um, Ithink are it's a more
interesting part of theconfession and I would love for
us to talk about that for a fewminutes the things that I've
(26:35):
left undone and, uh, in thepre-show you and I talked about,
you know, is that undone-nessor or am I finding myself in a
place right now that I've beenpart of?
I've been complicit in notrecognizing the undone things?
That has maybe led us to ourcurrent state of problems that
(27:03):
we're all facing in our currentday with administration or with
empire or how we're treatingimmigrants or neighbors or the
other.
Maybe I haven't confessed theundone.
We only think about the thingsthat we've done.
(27:24):
So let's talk about that.
What does that say to you?
In the things that I have done,in the sin, or in the moments,
or in the missing, the mark orin the off-centeredness that has
happened in my life, for whatI've done and what I have left
undone, meaning things my mindwasn't necessarily even thinking
(27:44):
about, that was causing me tobe off-center.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Well, I think that even that idea that you're
presenting now causes us torecognize how unloving
selfishness is, and theinvitation is to become aware
and I think that that's true offorgiveness and of the posture,
of an awareness that we need toreturn to love, that we need to
(28:09):
return to the presence of God,that we need to turn to an
awareness of where God is.
And I think that many of ushave just lived our life with a
set of moral codes or a standard, and as long as we were living
up to this standard, it feltgood, because then we could at
(28:30):
least judge other people by notliving up to the same standard
when we are missing the lovingmark that says what does it do?
for what does it require us toremove the yokes of oppression,
what does it require of us?
That love says that you mustremember the neighbor, the
foreigner, the widow, anyone whois marginalized in any place
(28:53):
that is not experiencing thefullness of the life of God.
That love requires us tocertainly invoke a conversation.
How can we change this?
What can we do to be a part ofa loving solution?
And while I look at that in theworld that we're in right now
and it feels overwhelming, Iknow that love is all powerful
(29:15):
and so there is a great hope andan anchor that says that when
we can become so immersed inlove and in God kind of love I'm
not talking about thesaccharine, sweet, you know,
little happy heart things.
I'm talking about love thatshows us itself in the
cruciformed life of Jesus Christ.
(29:35):
Love that shows us in the waythat God shares everything with
us.
Love that shows up in radicalservice, in radical giving, in
radical faith and in radicalwholeness.
This is the kind of love thatwe're invited into, and the
practice of staying in this loverequires that I wake up.
(29:56):
In fact, I love the words ofJesus that says wake up, thou
that sleepest.
Pay attention here.
Pay attention, there is morehappening.
You're invited to more.
You're invited to the realm ofspirit that sees all things,
that hovers above all things,that is creating all things to
become new.
And so this invitation into loveis an invitation into this
(30:20):
oneness that sees outside ofself, one of the things I
experienced in leading thisparticular liturgy and in the
prayer that says that we areasking for forgiveness or we're
becoming aware that it's notonly what we've done but what
we've left undone.
So we began using this in ourchurch setting and we have a
(30:41):
married couple that are in their80s and we began rehearsing
this and offering this as aposture and a prayer during
services.
And the husband called me andhe said you know, I've been
married over 65 years.
And he said I was just awarethis morning when I was praying
this prayer that you have taughtus and again, not original to
(31:01):
me, but I offered it to ourcongregation and he said much of
the damage that I have done inmy own life is things that I've
left undone.
Things that I have left unsaid,love that I have left unspent,
and he said it made me aware howmany more days do I have left,
how much more time do I have?
(31:22):
I have got to get busy withloving all of the ways that I
left undone, and I thoughtthat's such a beautiful
awareness of the Spirit.
Like you can keep yourself fromnot saying or from saying the
wrong thing, but are you sayingthe right thing?
Are you saying the word?
Are you blessing instead ofjust withholding the curse?
(31:43):
Are you blessing instead ofjust withholding the curse?
Are you creating, with thespirit, the kingdom that God
says is available?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
to us now.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Not in the afterlife Now.
What can we create now?
How do we join with the spirit,how do we join with brothers
and sisters all over the world?
And how do we say love is theway, love is the kingdom, love
is what Jesus came for for us,and the invitation is into an
awareness of love and returningor repentance that allows us to
(32:12):
come into love, and not anawareness of sin or sin
management, yes, or another orstricter moral code.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Mm-hmm and in in everything you've, you've,
you've said in the last fewminutes um reminds me that jesus
was an expansionist right.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yes, absolutely.
Well, yes, certainly that jesusis the one we're following.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
He was in this context where he was
consistently trying to get hisfriends and followers to see a
different perspective.
And so, when he was confrontedto talk about sin because I'm
sure there's people right nowwho may want to listen to us and
(32:57):
find all the texts that saysomething different than what
we've shared that Jesus knew hisculture and knew the time in
which he was standing in, andyet, in many ways, took a
posture that was different thanthe law, took a posture that was
different than the law, thanthe code, than the 600 and what
(33:22):
is it?
14,?
I don't know Jewish laws thathe would have been familiar with
.
I mean, you miss one of thosemarks and what have you done?
You've incited a whole empireto come after you.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
But in fact, jesus and his followers often did that
.
In fact, one of the things thatis given in an account of one
of the miracles that Jesus doesis the disciples aren't honoring
the Sabbath the way that theythink that they should be
honored.
They're eating food, they'repicking food, they're not
washing their hands in the sameway.
(34:01):
And then Jesus comes and saysyou don't even understand that
rule, you don't even understandthat law.
And here's what it actuallymeans.
I mean, is it better to leave aman with a withered hand?
You know you take.
In fact, jesus rebukes them andsays you take better care of
animals than you do of people.
You'll get an animal out of aditch, but here's a man who
suffered his whole life and youwon't remove the oppression.
(34:23):
And so Jesus, on a regularbasis, is confronting our idea
about separation from each otherand from God, our ideas of what
sin is and who should beexcluded or who needs to be
included.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Jesus tells us that and gives us his own life and
say I am the way, I am, truth, Iam life.
This way of expansion, love,this way of showing us that love
does lay down its own life andproves that there is no
separation between us and I loveI mean, we're in the season of
(35:00):
Lent and getting towardresurrection and this idea that
death doesn't have the finalword, love does.
And what does it look like inour lives to surrender to the
loving word that is eternal?
Jesus is the loving word, Godis the loving word, and our part
of creation is that we can joinin the chorus that says that we
(35:22):
will be a part of the lovingword, that we will be an
identification of the word ofGod through the way that we live
, through the way that we think,through the thoughts that we
ascend to and through the thingsthat we choose to be a part of
remaking in the world.
When other people have leftundone, left people in chains,
(35:43):
left people in poverty, leftpeople you know, systems and
principalities that have leftpeople harmed, deeply harmed,
that are we, will we be part ofthe rescue plan?
Are we people of love who willsay I see you and I hear your
pain and I so want to embody thestory of the Good Samaritan,
(36:09):
where I will take it upon myselfthat, when religious systems
and when empire leave people bythe side of the road, that I
will lead my position, my job,whatever it was that I was doing
that day, and I will go and Iwill offer the gifts of healing
that I have and then I will putthat person upon my own donkey,
whatever it is.
I have a really old minivan.
(36:29):
You could come into my minivanand I will take you to whatever
place can get healing.
And I love the whole imagery ofthat story, because it's not
all on the Samaritan to bringthe healing, but to take those
people and bring them to that.
And I think love reminds usthat we have a part to play.
It is not all ourresponsibility, but in an
awareness of love, in anawareness of a rejection of an
(36:53):
illusion of separation, I am onewith the man who is on the side
of the road.
I am also one with the man whoignored him and to be able to
say Jesus said the goodSamaritan, be him by what I have
done and what I have leftundone.
Yes, yes, yes.
And so this truth to say thisis how the world is healed, that
(37:15):
we see the pain, we see thesuffering.
We don't walk across the streetand ignore it, but we come with
whatever gifts of anointing wehave and then say I'll take you
someplace that can, and theinvitation is into wholeness.
And I think that story inparticular has a lot to do with
sin and people's ideas about sin, because then people would
(37:37):
justify the callousness and thehorror of walking away from
someone who needs your help,because people have explained
the story to me this way it wasa sin for them to touch a dead
body and they didn't know if hewas dead or not, so they
couldn't.
So even Jesus is confrontingthis idea in this story of the
Good Samaritan.
(37:57):
You think that you have a moralcode that you are upholding,
and yet you're missing yourbrother, you're missing yourself
, beaten and left for dead onthe side of the road, when you
can bring healing.
And so the invitation then yeah, is more.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
It seems easy for us to talk about that right now
from a scriptural story andstandpoint, because we can see
ourselves as the Samaritan, butwe can also see ourselves as the
ones who walked away.
And you know how many timeshave I personally walked away
(38:31):
and maybe wished that I hadgotten involved, and so involved
.
And so, moving from thisdefinition of sin, is
separateness to that.
It is the essence of false,that, the essence of that which
falls short of God's love.
Then I'm reminded to look atevery situation as where's God's
(38:54):
love in that situation?
Right, and what is what am I todo with that, Instead of saying
, oh, that looks sinful, or Ican't get involved in that, or
you know, that's, that'ssomebody else's problem to deal
with.
And I wonder if this is howwe've gotten here to this
present age, is we've pushed it?
(39:14):
You know, we've pushed it asfar as we can push it.
And now and now we have to faceit.
We have to face what is, whatis my role, what is?
How do I help bring this kindof love into the world and let
it be a balm or let it be asalve for what I have done and
(39:38):
what I have left undone?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I love this, the story of the Samaritan and the
wisdom that is in the story.
And one of the practices thatwe can do toward expansionist is
to not only find our place inthe story with the hero, but to
also find our place in the storywith the victim.
To find our place in the storywith the hero, but to also find
our place in the story with thevictim to find our place in the
(40:00):
story with the villain and lookat the story through all of
those measures.
What does it look like for me toidentify with the Levite and
the priest?
What does it also look like forme to identify with the
Samaritan or with the man who isbeat up and I love that in the
story that he's removed, all ofthe things that are taken from
(40:21):
him are all things that would beidentifiers.
The way that he was dressedwould probably identify him with
his ethnicity or his, you know,maybe he had a lot of money, or
maybe he was a beggar.
Like all of those thingsstripped away, his humanity is
the only thing that we'redealing with.
This place of connection isthat this is a brother and the
(40:42):
invitation into the story is forus to examine.
Wouldn't we, in places ofdesperation, want to just be
connected with or have mercybecause we are human beings.
And so the story calls us toengage the stories that we have
(41:02):
used to form and shape ourreligious beliefs.
They call us to a greaterwisdom of seeing the oneness
with each other and with God.
And I love the story of theGood Samaritan for many reasons,
many, many reasons, because Ithink there's such layered
wisdom there.
But I also see the church, andI still believe that there is
(41:26):
value in spiritual communitywith radical love.
I see the church maybe notdenominations, but I see the
church as this innkeeper's placewhere the people that are on
the road outside that haveoffered their loving anointings,
it says they took his own oiland poured it on the man for
healing you, and I love the ideaof anointing and that each
(41:49):
person has anointing and that itshould be this expression.
But there was some place that hetook this broken brother and
said you can take the time thatyou need to heal and I will
return to you, I will come againto this place and I will pay
what needs to be paid and youwill heal and I will be a part
(42:09):
of it.
And that, to me, is a beautifulillustration of what the church
invites us to do, what a loving, beloved community can be, of
what the church invites us to do, what a loving, beloved
community can be.
We can be the people who willattend to the near deathbed of
someone's soul, of someone'sheartache, of someone's
relationship, and we canadminister the gifts of healing
(42:29):
that are given through the HolySpirit, through wisdom and
through the patient attendanceand presence of time.
And it's a promise of hope, Ithink, for the world that if we
attend to the wisdom here, if wefind the idea of goodness even
(42:50):
in again, this was a hatedperson, the Samaritan.
This was a person who wasdespised.
The invitation is beyond allthe labels.
Love made us like itself.
We are made in the image oflove and if we allow ourselves
to go past our prejudice and ourbigotry, we can make divine
(43:12):
connection, loving connection,with every single person.
We can find places of mercy, wecan be people of mercy, and I
think that's where the healingof the world comes.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
And if someone's listening to this, I would add
that if you can't find a churchthat's demonstrating that kind
of love or that kind ofexpression or that kind of
understanding about what's atthe center of us, that love is
at the center and only sees thesin, then I would encourage
(43:45):
people to find a place outsideof the church or a group or a
community where this can beexpanded and leaned into.
Church isn't the only placethat Jesus found himself.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Agreed, and if you can't find?
I read a book years ago, mydaughter and I, by Doug Bursch,
called the Community of God, andhe said that if you do not find
a church around you or that youcan be a part of that, offers
this thing that you're morallyobligated to create a community
that you would like to see, andso we don't get to just throw up
(44:26):
our hands and say you know, Ican't find a loving community.
Build one.
Then Open the table, setanother seat and call in your
neighbors, call in your friends.
Jesus told us so many storiesabout that, you know, even when
people said, tell us about God.
And Jesus said God is like awoman, here we go.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Here we go.
Well, here's the point.
Here's what we can do.
Heather's favorite love story.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Yeah, so I go from story to story on this, but God
is like a woman who looks forthis coin and when she finds it,
she calls the neighbors.
When she finds it, shecelebrates To celebrate yes With
someone.
When she finds it, she has aparty.
And I think that these are thethings that we need to remember
about the God that Jesus showedus is like God is love and sin
(45:22):
is an illusion of our separationfrom that love.
And what Mary Magdalene offersus a way, a path, a a, an
invitation into return, to lovereturn to love you know, in your
thoughts quickly return to love.
In your actions, quickly returnto love.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Imagine if we did that all the time imagine, if we
could um well, that's anotherpodcast.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
We're out of time for today, but we've got more more
podcasts coming.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yeah, I, I and that's what I say.
It sounds simple, um, but Ithink the the path.
Cynthia bourgeau says fifth waylove, right, fifth way love is
is what we're talking about here.
It's not.
It's not that you know, wow,just slap love label on it and
(46:12):
all is good, um, but heck,that's a place to start, right.
Put the love label on it and godeeper, like figure out how
this gets expanded fromseparation to this complete,
whole place of love.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
I want to read to us, if we're thinking about what is
love and how we're connected,and allowing love to be the
motivation of our lives.
From 1 Corinthians, chapter 13.
If I were to speak with theeloquence in earth's many
languages and in the heavenlytongues of angels, and yet I did
not express myself with love,my words would be reduced to the
(46:56):
hollow sound of nothing morethan a clanging cymbal.
And if I were to have the giftof prophecy with a profound
understanding of God's hiddensecrets, and if I possessed
unending supernatural knowledge,and if I had the greatest gift
of faith that I could movemountains but have never learned
to love, then I am nothing.
(47:19):
And if I were to be so generousas to give away everything I
own to feed the poor and tooffer my body to be burned as a
martyr, without the pure motiveof love, I would gain nothing of
value.
Love is large and incrediblypatient.
Love is gentle and consistentlykind to all.
(47:41):
It refuses to be jealous whenblessing comes to someone else.
Love does not brag about one'sachievements, nor inflate its
own importance.
Love does not traffic in shameor disrespect, nor selfishly
seek its own honor.
Love is not easily irritated orquick to take an offense.
Love joyfully celebrateshonesty and finds no delight in
(48:04):
what is wrong.
Love is a safe place of shelter, for it never stops believing
the best for others.
Love never takes failure asdefeat, for it never gives up.
Love never stops loving.
It extends beyond the gift ofprophecy, which eventually fades
away.
It is more enduring thantongues which will one day fall
(48:25):
silent.
Love remains long after words ofknowledge are forgotten.
Our present knowledge and ourprophecies are but partial.
But when love's perfectionarrives, the partial will fade
away.
When I was a child, I spokeabout childish matter and I saw
and reasoned like a child.
(48:45):
But the day came when I maturedand I set aside childish ways.
Now we see but a faintreflection of riddles and
mysteries as reflected inmirrors.
But one day we will see face toface.
My understanding is incompletenow, but one day I will stand
everything, just as everythingabout me has been fully
(49:06):
understood.
And until then there are threethings that remain faith, hope
and love.
And yet love wildly surpassesthem all.
So, above all else, let love bethe prize for which you run.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
(49:28):
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Hello, my friend.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hello, shelley Shepard.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast, it's so
good to see you today, sograteful to be in your presence
and for us to have thisopportunity to spend some time
thinking about things that arelovely, true and of a good
report.
So we have been between usthinking about things that will
(00:43):
expand our capacity to feel love, to be love, to sense love, to
further on the journey of love,and I'm excited for us to share
it with the listeners today.
You texted me the other day andasked a question and your
question was do you think thatyou have to confess sin in order
(01:06):
to feel joy or to experiencejoy?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yes, or to get to joy .
Do we have?
To acknowledge sin in order toget to joy.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
So today we want to talk about sin.
Isn't that such a beautifulthing?
I would have absolutely notbeen interested in any kind of
talk of this a few years ago andnow I feel like I can talk
about it with a lot of joy, infact, with a lot of hope, with a
lot of ease and lightness,versus the burden that sometimes
the word and the connotationsthat have been around it have
(01:40):
led us into have led us into.
And while we recognize that sinor separation is an absolute,
enormous topic and we do nottake it lightly, but I am just
excited about the fact that wecan tell a better story, that we
can tell the story that God hasbeen telling and that love has
(02:01):
been showing us since the verybeginning.
So talk to me for a minuteabout why you had that question,
or how it came to you, or whatyou were hoping to find when you
asked me, just random, out ofthe blue do we have to confess
sin in order to experience joy?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Wow, my mind went so many places as I was thinking.
And I don't know, maybe duringthe season of Lent, when we're
thinking about, you know, prayerand fasting and gifts of
generosity or serving others,you know, sometimes repentance
comes up in that process orconfession.
(02:41):
And I was sitting with the withthat notion wondering.
I was wondering like wonderwhat Heather would think about
that question, and so I justtexted you and of course she's
like what do you mean by sin?
What is sin?
And then that starts a wholelike trajectory of thought and
(03:01):
and other conversation around it.
But you mentioned here justright now in this introduction
that a few years ago youwouldn't have been as
comfortable having thisconversation.
And so I'm wondering friends, myfriends, and I believe that you
have friends who are alsodeconstructing from their faith
(03:26):
in ways that have either causedtrauma or chaos or they've just
completely left the church,because you know a variety of
reasons.
But one of the reasons that Ifeel like we have such a hard
(03:46):
time talking about sin is thatwe have this image or have been
told a story about what sin is,that it separates us from the
one who loves us completely, andso if I have this
(04:07):
unacknowledged sin in my life,then I'm a bad person.
I can't get to joy, I can't,you know, I can't see abundance,
and I can't certainly give thatto other people if I have some
sort of sin that I haven'tacknowledged or confessed, and
so I think this is going to be awildly good topic for us to
(04:32):
dive into today, so maybe sharewith us what has changed in just
a couple of years that you'reable to now talk about this.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Well, I would have been able to talk about it
before, but it would have beennow talk about this.
Well, I would have been able totalk about it before, but it
would have been, I feel, like aheavy burden.
I feel like it would have beenyoking to something that was
even more difficult, even moreoppressive, and so I want to
first maybe push back a littlebit on.
We know people who aredeconstructing, and I agree with
(05:03):
that, but I don't think they'redeconstructing their faith.
I think they're deconstructingfrom religious systems that have
added to weights.
I think that people's faith issecure in the fact that they
know that there is more, thatthere has to be something better
and more beautiful and moreinclusive, and I can see that
more heavenly in the idea ofthat but that religious systems
(05:34):
and religion in itself havehanded to us very.
I can see that, and so I thinkthat, well, I know that, growing
up, and the first like anawareness of sin I had, and what
sin was told to me was that itwasn't a perfection, that it
wasn't what you were supposed to, there was like a standard, and
(05:55):
the list was long.
I was raised in the Pentecostalholiness church and I'm telling
you Absolutely.
I mean you look left.
We had the list, yeah, but itwas long.
I mean there are some peoplewho have shorter lists and I'm
like you know, no lipstick, youcan't cut your hair.
So the list was not only in theissues of outer living, but
(06:16):
also in inner living, in a factthat an awareness of sin
absolutely, I think, caused meto almost diminish myself as
opposed to live fully into theresurrected invitation that
Jesus offers us, and itcertainly taught me a lot about
judgment, taught me about my ownjudgment for myself and how to
(06:39):
judge others, because there wasthis standard of sin.
So this topic is not somethingthat you and I have flippantly
come into.
It's certainly that time thatwe've spent listening to the
Spirit retell us the story.
Where you and I both have comeis to an understanding that we
(06:59):
are people made in the image oforiginal blessing, that we are
not starting from original sin.
We are starting from a blessedposition, from a position where
we are loved, delighted in, andthat we are full image bearers.
And so that is not the positionthat I originally grew up in,
but it is a place where theSpirit has allowed me to expand
(07:23):
and has converted or invitedinto something so much more and
allows liberation for not onlymy spirit, but for the spirit of
the world, for the spirit ofothers who are around me, for
the good and for the benefit ofall.
And I believe that that's wherewisdom leads us is not only to
(07:43):
our own freedom.
I believe that that's wherewisdom leads us is not only to
our own freedom, but for thefreedom of every other person
that is enslaved with a thoughtthat keeps them connected to an
idea or an illusion that hasbeen gifted to them by something
in this world.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Very interesting.
I want to go back to yourthought on we don't deconstruct
our faith, we deconstructreligion.
Can we sit there for a minute,sure, sure, do you disagree?
No, I don't necessarilydisagree with that, but what do
you call moving away from onefaith or religion to a different
(08:21):
one, like if I was Baptist andthen I went to Catholicism?
Do I have to deconstruct somefaith and practice or
understanding, or do I have tolay down some things?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, Two of the things that you mentioned are,
you know, systems that men havecreated, and what I am alluding
to is the fact that in Genesis,chapter one, where it talks
about the spirit that hovers orbroods over the chaos, there are
so many times in our thoughtsand in the systems that we
participate in, in our humanityand in our worldview, where it
(08:58):
leads just to further chaos,further darkness.
And when the Spirit comes in,when there is a revelation of
the Spirit, I think that thereis an invitation for us to
follow light, for us to followthe Holy Spirit and for us to
experience what Jesus offered us, with a renewing of our mind,
with a repentance, a life ofliving something believing
(09:21):
differently, turning around froma way of thought, joining the
thoughts of God, when God infact explains to us that God's
ways are so much higher than ourways, and so it's an invitation
into an ascension, it's aninvitation into so much higher
thought, a thought that comesnot from scarcity, not from fear
(09:44):
, but a thought that comes fromthe divine love, that comes from
the voice of God, who hascalled us image bearers, who has
called us one with God, and Ilove the prayer that Jesus
prayed for us in John when hesays Father, make them one Like
you and I are one make them oneand let
(10:06):
them know that you love themlike you love me.
And so I think that's a reallygreat place to be able to bring
our understanding of sin, to beable to say can what I believe
about sin right now allow me tobelieve that I am loved the same
way that Jesus is loved?
Because this illusion of sin,this illusion of separateness,
(10:27):
and allow me to believe that Iam loved the same way that Jesus
is loved?
Because this illusion of sin,this illusion of separateness,
usually comes to us with thethought but I have already
committed, I've already donethese things or not done these
things, and so I cannot be lovedthe way that Jesus is loved.
And so I think that any timethat we contradict the prayers
of Jesus, it should be suspectto us.
A little kind of tick shouldcome off in our head.
I need to question that.
(10:48):
And so this invitation to a newway of viewing the salvation of
God, the new way of viewing thework that Jesus has done for the
whole world In John again,chapter 3,.
(11:09):
For God so loved the world thathe sent his one and only
begotten son that whoeverbelieved in the way of Jesus, in
Jesus, would not perish buthave eternal life, because God
did not send Jesus into theworld to condemn the world, but
that the world, through Jesus,would be saved.
And so that, to me, is such abeautiful invitation of how the
salvation enters the world, notjust, I think, for a long time,
(11:29):
saved from what Heather Savedfrom what, well, let's talk
about I mean that's I thinkthat's another whole podcast,
Shelley but the salvation.
Salvation that we'reexperiencing, where we're
experiencing true life, wherewe're experiencing our full
humanity, where we'reexperiencing life in the kingdom
, where we're participating withJesus and with spirit in
bringing and ushering thekingdom here on earth.
(11:51):
And so salvation, notnecessarily just from sin,
although it's a part of that andthe salvation.
What I mean by that, or whatI'm practicing, is a rejection
of an illusion of separation,that I am not separate from the
love of God, I am not separatefrom inclusion.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
There's where I was hoping you would go with this,
because the whole premise of sinentering into the world through
humanity started with thisnotion of separation or a
separateness now.
So, now that I'm separateoriginal sin, it's hard for me
(12:34):
to see that story as originalblessing or, in Hildegard's
words, original wisdom.
And so if I can lean intooriginal blessing or original
wisdom and understand that I'venever been separated, then there
is a different story about sinthat we have to tell.
(12:55):
Perhaps we're not the firstones to talk about this for
crying out loud, and how manycommentaries and theologians and
researchers have belabored thisparticular topic?
Let me read this quote, and Idon't have a name for it.
This person said sin is theessence of that which falls
(13:16):
short of God's love.
Now I'm looking at the queen oflove right now.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Always pushing.
I hope it's me.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Always pushing love down the stream.
I am.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I am force feeding love to everyone, but this is
the essence.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Sin is the essence of that which falls short of God's
love.
Now, if we unpack that, we havethis opportunity of love within
us.
It sits around our heart oraround our soul or in our mind
and we reach out to receive it,we reach out to touch it, we
reach out to unify with it, asJulian, one of the mystics, is
(14:00):
teaching us right now in her 16showings.
Her revelations that she hadwith this love, right Like.
This is what her whole book isabout, is this dance and this
engagement with love.
And what's interesting in thatparticular book is that she
points us to this one of theshowings.
(14:22):
As I just asked love.
I asked love, what is sin?
Where is sin?
What does it look like?
I need to know these things.
You know, I'm of this RomanCatholic stature and I want to
be able to see.
Can you just explain this to me?
And love says to her there isnone, there is no sin.
(14:44):
And then we fast forward.
Oh, we go back to MaryMagdalene.
We go back to Mary Magdaleneand her gospel, and she's saying
the same thing when she isapproached in this conversation
between Peter and Jesus and, Ibelieve, and Levi, or, yeah,
(15:04):
Levi, what is sin?
And Jesus says there is no sin.
And so if we have thesedifferent accounts, if a
theologian or a pastor or apreacher or teacher or
researcher can look at aparticular passage in any text
of the tradition and come upwith five different translations
(15:28):
or interpretations for that,then what that says to me as an
individual is, when I look atsin as it has been taught or put
into my hands or preached weekafter week, I have an
opportunity to attach thatmeaning to my life, or in some
(15:50):
kind of deconstructive ormodified way of looking at an
expansive faith.
Jesus says to Mary Magdaleneyour faith has made you whole.
She didn't enter the room towash Jesus's feet knowing that
she would be forgiven.
She entered the room to washJesus's feet and to anoint them
(16:18):
because of love.
The love within her reached outto the love for him and the act
was created.
And then we know the story.
Anytime this story is told, hername will be attached to it.
And so, as we hold this spacetoday and thinking about, you
(16:38):
know these stronger words ofrepentance and salvation, and
even sin From an expansionistperspective, if I can't get to
the essence of that which fallsshort of God's love as the
definition for sin, then I needa new definition.
(17:00):
I think if we're going to tella better story about sin,
Heather, maybe we have to find anew definition, or at least in
my case, I'm looking for a newdefinition.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
The idea that sin is an illusion of separation brings
us to an awareness of thepromise and of the fulfillment
of the promise that God is withus always.
People have said to me, since Iwas little and growing up, you
know, like if you sin, then youremove yourself from the
(17:33):
presence of God.
Your sin does not allow thepresence to be there, and I just
want to tell you what a terrorthat is.
Yes, to feel like that youcould do something that would
remove you from presence, thepresence of love, and the
scripture even reminds us thereis no fear in love, that God is
(17:53):
love, and so when we are handedany kind of thought that
produces in us a terror or afear, it should be questioned.
And this promise of Godthroughout history, throughout
understanding of the presence ofGod, of love, of the work of
(18:15):
Christ and Jesus's manifestationhere on the earth, is a
complete understanding that weare always, always loved.
In fact, the Apostle Paul saidthis is what I want for you, and
I want it for everyone to knowthat there is nothing that you
could do that would separate youfrom the love of God, yes.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Why is that so hard for us to believe that?
Why is it so hard?
Because we've been told thatsin separates.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yes, absolutely.
So.
Here's the illusion.
We have been taught wrongly andthat happens, and so we do have
to again.
This is the Jesus way.
You have heard it said but, I,say unto you that it is simply
an illusion that we would beseparated from God, that we have
this eternal parent that wouldin any way turn their back on us
(19:02):
, that we are always part ofwhat God is doing and what God
continues to do and how Godreveals God's self and how the
presence of God is with us inthe world.
But this idea that we wouldnever be separate from love.
Now we can forget love, we canturn from love, we can act
(19:24):
outside of love.
I mean, we're in a currentpolitical situation right now
and people are acting veryunlovingly toward each other.
This already happened in earlygenesis, where brothers are
fighting and then one brotherkills another.
I mean, there is an absence oflove there, there is an illusion
of I am separate from you andso I will inflict this pain upon
(19:44):
you and the understanding and Ibelieve this is why Jesus
prayed this for us Father, makethem one and let them know that
they're loved by you the sameway that you love me.
I think, those two things inparticular the oneness and the
illusion of separateness, andthe truth of we are one, we are
(20:06):
one in God, we are one throughChrist, we are one with each
other, we are one with theuniverse and with nature and
with all of the things that Godcreated, that we are not
separate from those things andwe are not even separate from
ourselves.
I think a lot of times, a falseidea of sin that says that it's
(20:27):
a list of moral rules that youmust follow actually asks us
that behave in a certain way orthink a certain thought, that we
begin to resent those things.
(20:47):
As opposed to what you talkedabout earlier in the podcast,
this invitation intowholeheartedness, into wholeness
and I believe this is the planof salvation that we would be
people who live and exist andminister and open tables of
hospitality out of a place ofwholeness, that we say to the
(21:10):
world that is broken and lost ina nightmare or illusion come
home, return to love, come backto the radical love of God that
makes all things new.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
It's such a beautiful , expansive way to look at a
relationship with God is througha lens of love rather than a
lens of sin and separation, andit makes me think about.
It's been a while since I'velooked at this work by Cynthia
Bourgeau, but she talks aboutthe center, cynthia Bourgeau,
(21:47):
but she talks about the center.
You know, what's at the centerof us, what is at the core of
our being, is a place that theworld cannot touch, that
whatever is happening around uscannot touch.
It's like it's reserved forthis love relationship between
ourselves and God.
And I'm probably, you know,messing up her intentional
(22:10):
theology to us.
But the point is, if we can'tunderstand that love is at our
core, it just seems so simple tous.
Maybe and maybe love is toosimple.
Simple to us, maybe and maybelove is too simple, but I find
(22:30):
that it's it's complicated andit's it's not easy, um, to
sometimes erase the thoughts ofseparation.
You know things that I havesaid or done, and we'll get to
that prayer of confession in aminute.
I think we should talk aboutthat and we kind of we beat
ourselves.
You know, we beat ourselves upInstead of being at this, at the
(22:52):
center, and Cynthia says it inthis way is that it's not.
It's not that image of thearcher.
You know that's used in theGreek, where sin is missing the
mark.
Yes, that's been one of themetaphors that has been used for
us to understand what sin is.
(23:13):
But Cynthia contrasts that withalignment and attunement.
When you get too far off centerright and you don't hear, you
know the pings in the snowbankanymore and the radar's not
going off or you know thereminder's not happening, then
we have to align ourselves backto center, where the love exists
(23:38):
, where it's always existed.
But she does a beautiful job.
I can't remember which bookthat is in, maybe Jesus Wisdom.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I don't know if I'm pulling it from the right place,
but it's a beautiful way to getto a different definition of
learning to tell a better storyin as much conflict with the
idea, if you understand that,missing the mark, if the mark is
(24:06):
love, if the mark is a set ofmoral code, if the mark is a
particular denomination, if themark is something like that,
then I think it doesn't work.
But if the center, like you'recalling us to, if the center is
love, then 100% that still works.
If you do anything out of theessence of or the understanding
(24:27):
of what is loving to, would be aplace of so much love that it
(24:47):
would be a place of return forevery single person.
Welcome at the table of God,Welcome into the presence of God
.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
we are that you've joined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast,consider sharing it with a
friend.
We are that you've joined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
(25:08):
friend.
And if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
Let's talk about the originalquestion that you posted a few
weeks ago going what about theconfession?
Do you have to confess this?
And let's talk about the beautyin confession and let's talk
about where it's leading us into.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Very helpful yeah for sure, yeah, so maybe people are
familiar.
In some traditions they havethis prayer of confession before
communion and often in aliturgical service.
But part of the confession isthat we recognize, um, we take
the posture of recognizing thatwe are coming to confess things
(25:51):
that we have done and thingsthat we have left undone.
Right, so, wow, the things thatI've done, I'm pretty clear
about, uh, that list.
But what about the things thatI have left undone?
I'm confessing this every week,that I'm taking this posture
(26:12):
and asking forgiveness for whatI have done or what I have said
or how I might have treatedsomebody, or let my fire get out
of control, whatever the casemight be.
Um, but the undone things, um, Ithink are it's a more
interesting part of theconfession and I would love for
us to talk about that for a fewminutes the things that I've
(26:35):
left undone and, uh, in thepre-show you and I talked about,
you know, is that undone-nessor or am I finding myself in a
place right now that I've beenpart of?
I've been complicit in notrecognizing the undone things?
That has maybe led us to ourcurrent state of problems that
(27:03):
we're all facing in our currentday with administration or with
empire or how we're treatingimmigrants or neighbors or the
other.
Maybe I haven't confessed theundone.
We only think about the thingsthat we've done.
(27:24):
So let's talk about that.
What does that say to you?
In the things that I have done,in the sin, or in the moments,
or in the missing, the mark orin the off-centeredness that has
happened in my life, for whatI've done and what I have left
undone, meaning things my mindwasn't necessarily even thinking
(27:44):
about, that was causing me tobe off-center.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Well, I think that even that idea that you're
presenting now causes us torecognize how unloving
selfishness is, and theinvitation is to become aware
and I think that that's true offorgiveness and of the posture,
of an awareness that we need toreturn to love, that we need to
(28:09):
return to the presence of God,that we need to turn to an
awareness of where God is.
And I think that many of ushave just lived our life with a
set of moral codes or a standard, and as long as we were living
up to this standard, it feltgood, because then we could at
(28:30):
least judge other people by notliving up to the same standard
when we are missing the lovingmark that says what does it do?
for what does it require us toremove the yokes of oppression,
what does it require of us?
That love says that you mustremember the neighbor, the
foreigner, the widow, anyone whois marginalized in any place
(28:53):
that is not experiencing thefullness of the life of God.
That love requires us tocertainly invoke a conversation.
How can we change this?
What can we do to be a part ofa loving solution?
And while I look at that in theworld that we're in right now
and it feels overwhelming, Iknow that love is all powerful
(29:15):
and so there is a great hope andan anchor that says that when
we can become so immersed inlove and in God kind of love I'm
not talking about thesaccharine, sweet, you know,
little happy heart things.
I'm talking about love thatshows us itself in the
cruciformed life of Jesus Christ.
(29:35):
Love that shows us in the waythat God shares everything with
us.
Love that shows up in radicalservice, in radical giving, in
radical faith and in radicalwholeness.
This is the kind of love thatwe're invited into, and the
practice of staying in this loverequires that I wake up.
(29:56):
In fact, I love the words ofJesus that says wake up, thou
that sleepest.
Pay attention here.
Pay attention, there is morehappening.
You're invited to more.
You're invited to the realm ofspirit that sees all things,
that hovers above all things,that is creating all things to
become new.
And so this invitation into loveis an invitation into this
(30:20):
oneness that sees outside ofself, one of the things I
experienced in leading thisparticular liturgy and in the
prayer that says that we areasking for forgiveness or we're
becoming aware that it's notonly what we've done but what
we've left undone.
So we began using this in ourchurch setting and we have a
(30:41):
married couple that are in their80s and we began rehearsing
this and offering this as aposture and a prayer during
services.
And the husband called me andhe said you know, I've been
married over 65 years.
And he said I was just awarethis morning when I was praying
this prayer that you have taughtus and again, not original to
(31:01):
me, but I offered it to ourcongregation and he said much of
the damage that I have done inmy own life is things that I've
left undone.
Things that I have left unsaid,love that I have left unspent,
and he said it made me aware howmany more days do I have left,
how much more time do I have?
(31:22):
I have got to get busy withloving all of the ways that I
left undone, and I thoughtthat's such a beautiful
awareness of the Spirit.
Like you can keep yourself fromnot saying or from saying the
wrong thing, but are you sayingthe right thing?
Are you saying the word?
Are you blessing instead ofjust withholding the curse?
(31:43):
Are you blessing instead ofjust withholding the curse?
Are you creating, with thespirit, the kingdom that God
says is available?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
to us now.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Not in the afterlife Now.
What can we create now?
How do we join with the spirit,how do we join with brothers
and sisters all over the world?
And how do we say love is theway, love is the kingdom, love
is what Jesus came for for us,and the invitation is into an
awareness of love and returningor repentance that allows us to
(32:12):
come into love, and not anawareness of sin or sin
management, yes, or another orstricter moral code.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Mm-hmm and in in everything you've, you've,
you've said in the last fewminutes um reminds me that jesus
was an expansionist right.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yes, absolutely.
Well, yes, certainly that jesusis the one we're following.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
He was in this context where he was
consistently trying to get hisfriends and followers to see a
different perspective.
And so, when he was confrontedto talk about sin because I'm
sure there's people right nowwho may want to listen to us and
(32:57):
find all the texts that saysomething different than what
we've shared that Jesus knew hisculture and knew the time in
which he was standing in, andyet, in many ways, took a
posture that was different thanthe law, took a posture that was
different than the law, thanthe code, than the 600 and what
(33:22):
is it?
14,?
I don't know Jewish laws thathe would have been familiar with
.
I mean, you miss one of thosemarks and what have you done?
You've incited a whole empireto come after you.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
But in fact, jesus and his followers often did that
.
In fact, one of the things thatis given in an account of one
of the miracles that Jesus doesis the disciples aren't honoring
the Sabbath the way that theythink that they should be
honored.
They're eating food, they'repicking food, they're not
washing their hands in the sameway.
(34:01):
And then Jesus comes and saysyou don't even understand that
rule, you don't even understandthat law.
And here's what it actuallymeans.
I mean, is it better to leave aman with a withered hand?
You know you take.
In fact, jesus rebukes them andsays you take better care of
animals than you do of people.
You'll get an animal out of aditch, but here's a man who
suffered his whole life and youwon't remove the oppression.
(34:23):
And so Jesus, on a regularbasis, is confronting our idea
about separation from each otherand from God, our ideas of what
sin is and who should beexcluded or who needs to be
included.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Jesus tells us that and gives us his own life and
say I am the way, I am, truth, Iam life.
This way of expansion, love,this way of showing us that love
does lay down its own life andproves that there is no
separation between us and I loveI mean, we're in the season of
(35:00):
Lent and getting towardresurrection and this idea that
death doesn't have the finalword, love does.
And what does it look like inour lives to surrender to the
loving word that is eternal?
Jesus is the loving word, Godis the loving word, and our part
of creation is that we can joinin the chorus that says that we
(35:22):
will be a part of the lovingword, that we will be an
identification of the word ofGod through the way that we live
, through the way that we think,through the thoughts that we
ascend to and through the thingsthat we choose to be a part of
remaking in the world.
When other people have leftundone, left people in chains,
(35:43):
left people in poverty, leftpeople you know, systems and
principalities that have leftpeople harmed, deeply harmed,
that are we, will we be part ofthe rescue plan?
Are we people of love who willsay I see you and I hear your
pain and I so want to embody thestory of the Good Samaritan,
(36:09):
where I will take it upon myselfthat, when religious systems
and when empire leave people bythe side of the road, that I
will lead my position, my job,whatever it was that I was doing
that day, and I will go and Iwill offer the gifts of healing
that I have and then I will putthat person upon my own donkey,
whatever it is.
I have a really old minivan.
(36:29):
You could come into my minivanand I will take you to whatever
place can get healing.
And I love the whole imagery ofthat story, because it's not
all on the Samaritan to bringthe healing, but to take those
people and bring them to that.
And I think love reminds usthat we have a part to play.
It is not all ourresponsibility, but in an
awareness of love, in anawareness of a rejection of an
(36:53):
illusion of separation, I am onewith the man who is on the side
of the road.
I am also one with the man whoignored him and to be able to
say Jesus said the goodSamaritan, be him by what I have
done and what I have leftundone.
Yes, yes, yes.
And so this truth to say thisis how the world is healed, that
(37:15):
we see the pain, we see thesuffering.
We don't walk across the streetand ignore it, but we come with
whatever gifts of anointing wehave and then say I'll take you
someplace that can, and theinvitation is into wholeness.
And I think that story inparticular has a lot to do with
sin and people's ideas about sin, because then people would
(37:37):
justify the callousness and thehorror of walking away from
someone who needs your help,because people have explained
the story to me this way it wasa sin for them to touch a dead
body and they didn't know if hewas dead or not, so they
couldn't.
So even Jesus is confrontingthis idea in this story of the
Good Samaritan.
(37:57):
You think that you have a moralcode that you are upholding,
and yet you're missing yourbrother, you're missing yourself
, beaten and left for dead onthe side of the road, when you
can bring healing.
And so the invitation then yeah, is more.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
It seems easy for us to talk about that right now
from a scriptural story andstandpoint, because we can see
ourselves as the Samaritan, butwe can also see ourselves as the
ones who walked away.
And you know how many timeshave I personally walked away
(38:31):
and maybe wished that I hadgotten involved, and so involved
.
And so, moving from thisdefinition of sin, is
separateness to that.
It is the essence of false,that, the essence of that which
falls short of God's love.
Then I'm reminded to look atevery situation as where's God's
(38:54):
love in that situation?
Right, and what is what am I todo with that, Instead of saying
, oh, that looks sinful, or Ican't get involved in that, or
you know, that's, that'ssomebody else's problem to deal
with.
And I wonder if this is howwe've gotten here to this
present age, is we've pushed it?
(39:14):
You know, we've pushed it asfar as we can push it.
And now and now we have to faceit.
We have to face what is, whatis my role, what is?
How do I help bring this kindof love into the world and let
it be a balm or let it be asalve for what I have done and
(39:38):
what I have left undone?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I love this, the story of the Samaritan and the
wisdom that is in the story.
And one of the practices thatwe can do toward expansionist is
to not only find our place inthe story with the hero, but to
also find our place in the storywith the victim.
To find our place in the storywith the hero, but to also find
our place in the story with thevictim to find our place in the
(40:00):
story with the villain and lookat the story through all of
those measures.
What does it look like for me toidentify with the Levite and
the priest?
What does it also look like forme to identify with the
Samaritan or with the man who isbeat up and I love that in the
story that he's removed, all ofthe things that are taken from
(40:21):
him are all things that would beidentifiers.
The way that he was dressedwould probably identify him with
his ethnicity or his, you know,maybe he had a lot of money, or
maybe he was a beggar.
Like all of those thingsstripped away, his humanity is
the only thing that we'redealing with.
This place of connection isthat this is a brother and the
(40:42):
invitation into the story is forus to examine.
Wouldn't we, in places ofdesperation, want to just be
connected with or have mercybecause we are human beings.
And so the story calls us toengage the stories that we have
(41:02):
used to form and shape ourreligious beliefs.
They call us to a greaterwisdom of seeing the oneness
with each other and with God.
And I love the story of theGood Samaritan for many reasons,
many, many reasons, because Ithink there's such layered
wisdom there.
But I also see the church, andI still believe that there is
(41:26):
value in spiritual communitywith radical love.
I see the church maybe notdenominations, but I see the
church as this innkeeper's placewhere the people that are on
the road outside that haveoffered their loving anointings,
it says they took his own oiland poured it on the man for
healing you, and I love the ideaof anointing and that each
(41:49):
person has anointing and that itshould be this expression.
But there was some place that hetook this broken brother and
said you can take the time thatyou need to heal and I will
return to you, I will come againto this place and I will pay
what needs to be paid and youwill heal and I will be a part
(42:09):
of it.
And that, to me, is a beautifulillustration of what the church
invites us to do, what a loving, beloved community can be, of
what the church invites us to do, what a loving, beloved
community can be.
We can be the people who willattend to the near deathbed of
someone's soul, of someone'sheartache, of someone's
relationship, and we canadminister the gifts of healing
(42:29):
that are given through the HolySpirit, through wisdom and
through the patient attendanceand presence of time.
And it's a promise of hope, Ithink, for the world that if we
attend to the wisdom here, if wefind the idea of goodness even
(42:50):
in again, this was a hatedperson, the Samaritan.
This was a person who wasdespised.
The invitation is beyond allthe labels.
Love made us like itself.
We are made in the image oflove and if we allow ourselves
to go past our prejudice and ourbigotry, we can make divine
(43:12):
connection, loving connection,with every single person.
We can find places of mercy, wecan be people of mercy, and I
think that's where the healingof the world comes.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
And if someone's listening to this, I would add
that if you can't find a churchthat's demonstrating that kind
of love or that kind ofexpression or that kind of
understanding about what's atthe center of us, that love is
at the center and only sees thesin, then I would encourage
(43:45):
people to find a place outsideof the church or a group or a
community where this can beexpanded and leaned into.
Church isn't the only placethat Jesus found himself.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Agreed, and if you can't find?
I read a book years ago, mydaughter and I, by Doug Bursch,
called the Community of God, andhe said that if you do not find
a church around you or that youcan be a part of that, offers
this thing that you're morallyobligated to create a community
that you would like to see, andso we don't get to just throw up
(44:26):
our hands and say you know, Ican't find a loving community.
Build one.
Then Open the table, setanother seat and call in your
neighbors, call in your friends.
Jesus told us so many storiesabout that, you know, even when
people said, tell us about God.
And Jesus said God is like awoman, here we go.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Here we go.
Well, here's the point.
Here's what we can do.
Heather's favorite love story.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Yeah, so I go from story to story on this, but God
is like a woman who looks forthis coin and when she finds it,
she calls the neighbors.
When she finds it, shecelebrates To celebrate yes With
someone.
When she finds it, she has aparty.
And I think that these are thethings that we need to remember
about the God that Jesus showedus is like God is love and sin
(45:22):
is an illusion of our separationfrom that love.
And what Mary Magdalene offersus a way, a path, a a, an
invitation into return, to lovereturn to love you know, in your
thoughts quickly return to love.
In your actions, quickly returnto love.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Imagine if we did that all the time imagine, if we
could um well, that's anotherpodcast.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
We're out of time for today, but we've got more more
podcasts coming.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yeah, I, I and that's what I say.
It sounds simple, um, but Ithink the the path.
Cynthia bourgeau says fifth waylove, right, fifth way love is
is what we're talking about here.
It's not.
It's not that you know, wow,just slap love label on it and
(46:12):
all is good, um, but heck,that's a place to start, right.
Put the love label on it and godeeper, like figure out how
this gets expanded fromseparation to this complete,
whole place of love.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
I want to read to us, if we're thinking about what is
love and how we're connected,and allowing love to be the
motivation of our lives.
From 1 Corinthians, chapter 13.
If I were to speak with theeloquence in earth's many
languages and in the heavenlytongues of angels, and yet I did
not express myself with love,my words would be reduced to the
(46:56):
hollow sound of nothing morethan a clanging cymbal.
And if I were to have the giftof prophecy with a profound
understanding of God's hiddensecrets, and if I possessed
unending supernatural knowledge,and if I had the greatest gift
of faith that I could movemountains but have never learned
to love, then I am nothing.
(47:19):
And if I were to be so generousas to give away everything I
own to feed the poor and tooffer my body to be burned as a
martyr, without the pure motiveof love, I would gain nothing of
value.
Love is large and incrediblypatient.
Love is gentle and consistentlykind to all.
(47:41):
It refuses to be jealous whenblessing comes to someone else.
Love does not brag about one'sachievements, nor inflate its
own importance.
Love does not traffic in shameor disrespect, nor selfishly
seek its own honor.
Love is not easily irritated orquick to take an offense.
Love joyfully celebrateshonesty and finds no delight in
(48:04):
what is wrong.
Love is a safe place of shelter, for it never stops believing
the best for others.
Love never takes failure asdefeat, for it never gives up.
Love never stops loving.
It extends beyond the gift ofprophecy, which eventually fades
away.
It is more enduring thantongues which will one day fall
(48:25):
silent.
Love remains long after words ofknowledge are forgotten.
Our present knowledge and ourprophecies are but partial.
But when love's perfectionarrives, the partial will fade
away.
When I was a child, I spokeabout childish matter and I saw
and reasoned like a child.
(48:45):
But the day came when I maturedand I set aside childish ways.
Now we see but a faintreflection of riddles and
mysteries as reflected inmirrors.
But one day we will see face toface.
My understanding is incompletenow, but one day I will stand
everything, just as everythingabout me has been fully
(49:06):
understood.
And until then there are threethings that remain faith, hope
and love.
And yet love wildly surpassesthem all.
So, above all else, let love bethe prize for which you run.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
(49:28):
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
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