April 9, 2025 • 38 mins
Its a great, great day here and we are just thrilled to share the mic with Shannon Evans. In her latest book, "The Mystics Would Like A Word," Shannon highlights the profound legacy of women mystics like Marjorie Kemp, Catherine of Siena, and Teresa of Avila who trusted their own souls despite living in deeply patriarchal contexts. Their witness offers guidance for contemporary spiritual seekers navigating questions of institutional belonging and spiritual authenticity.
Perhaps most powerfully, Shannon compassionately addresses those facing criticisms for expanding their spiritual horizons. Reminding us of Jesus's teaching that "the kingdom of God is within you," she validates our capacity to trust inner spiritual guidance. This isn't about the idea of rejecting external wisdom but recognizing that discerning truth is part of our spiritual birthright—we were created with an inner compass worthy of trust, the Holy Spirit.
Ready to explore feminine spirituality and mystical wisdom? Buy THE MYSTICS WOULD LIKE A WORD from your favorite local bookstore, and be inspired.
You may also be interested in buying Shannons other books Rewilding Motherhood and Feminist Prayers For My Daughter.
You can also find more information about Shannon Evans here https://www.shannonkevans.com/
You can also read other brilliant things Shannon is writing by subscribing to her Substack https://shannonkevans.substack.com/
If you were interested in what you heard us talk about today you can connect with our community at expansionisttheology.com where we continue expanding our understanding of the divine beyond historic limitations.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heather Drake (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Good afternoon, shelley Shepard.
I'm so glad to be in thepodcast studio with you and with
(00:24):
our friend Shannon Evans.
Yes, so much, thank you.
We are so excited to be able totalk about some of the beauty
of the words that she hascreated and the invitation into
a spirituality that is reallyinclusive and, I think, full of
spirit and so welcome with me,shannon Evans and Shelley
(00:46):
Shepard.
I'm so excited that the womenare here.
The Council of Rests have begunand we are starting.
Shelly Shepherd (00:54):
Here we are.
Here we are.
Welcome, shannon, it's great tobe with you.
Good to see you, heather.
Shannon Evans (00:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited for thisconversation.
You guys are like-heartedspirits for sure.
Heather Drake (01:06):
I wanted to read from the beginning of one of the
books that you've writtenFeminist Prayers for my Daughter
, and I wanted to read theprayer for the feminine imaging
of God.
I thought that was a greatplace for us to start.
Oh, face of the divine feminine.
My daughter bears the imago dio, the image of God, in her body
(01:28):
and femininity, and yet it israre for her to see that
represented in sacred spaces.
How can she believe in her ownimago dio when she has been
stifled, subdued in ourcollective religious imagination
?
And so I pray.
I pray for a great awakening tothe divine feminine.
I pray for artists to createfrom it, I pray for pastors to
(01:52):
preach on it, I pray forliturgists to include it, I pray
for activists to draw strengthfrom it, and I pray for my
daughter to delight in it.
Do a new thing within thehearts of the people of God.
Crack us open, give us freerimaginations, expand our souls
to embrace you in the feminine,after so long in the masculine,
(02:14):
parts of us will be healed,parts of us will be challenged.
Let us be unafraid to bechanged.
And when my daughter walks intoa place of worship, let it be
with her head held high incertainty in her bones, knowing
that the essence of who shereveals to the world is the
truth of the sacred feminine.
Amen.
I love that prayer.
(02:35):
I share it with people, and then, as a church pastor, it's one
of the things that I love toshare with our congregation as
well and remind them that thisis a gift.
At the end of the podcast or aswe end, I also want to read a
prayer that you've written foraging, and one of the things
that I absolutely adore aboutthis book.
(02:56):
There's many things I like thatyou use the names of God
different ones every time.
I think that was so creativeand so expansive and beautiful.
But the idea that I am alsousing this book and I don't
think I'm the only one not justprayers for my daughter, not
just prayer for the daughtersthat we have just in the general
population, but in reparentingmyself, I don't have a mom
(03:20):
necessarily to pray those thingsfor me, but to say I can pray
this over my own self is such agift to be able to have those
words, and so I'm grateful foryour stance on including those
prayers and, yeah, a real giftto the world.
Shannon Evans (03:36):
Thank you so much .
Yeah, that actually kind ofsurprised me as I was writing
them, because I really didintend for it to be a book of
prayers for my daughter.
And the further I mean itdidn't take me long, but the
further I got into it, the moreI realized, oh, this is equally
as much writing prayers formyself.
You know, like just I mean, Iam lucky to have a mother who is
(04:01):
amazing and does pray thosekinds of prayers for me.
But you know, like, no matterwhat kind of parents we had,
like we all have that work to dowith our inner child, and
especially when we've been inreligious spaces that have been
unhealthy, it's like gosh, we'vegot to do better for that inner
child so that we can do betterfor the rest of the world too.
(04:24):
And so, yeah, it was a.
I think it was like a healingjourney for me to undertake, as
I kind of realized that it wasmuch more than just a book of
prayers for my daughter,although it is that too.
Heather Drake (04:37):
One of the things that, when you're talking,
comes to mind is this idea of avery thin place to be able to
say here I am in this actualmatter of making a prayer or
designing a prayer for adaughter that I see in the flesh
, and then to be able to go oh,but I'm also praying as a
spiritual mother, I'm alsopraying as a woman now, but as a
(04:59):
woman also in the future and inagreement with the women in the
past, and to get to that placeof going.
It feels very eternal, it feelsvery sacred, and I'm wondering
how you felt confidence, or whogave you permission to start
hearing that voice, and maybehow you learned or attuned to
(05:22):
the voice of the divine feminine.
Shannon Evans (05:23):
Yeah, that was a whopper of a journey for me too.
I mean, I didn't necessarilysee it coming and it was a
process of a couple of years,but really what started it was
kind of I was cognitively awareof the harm of patriarchy in
(05:46):
churches, but there, but once itstarted actually becoming
personal in my life and I writeabout that a little bit in the
mystics would like a word when Iactually, you know, was had
words taken away from me, or Ihad platform taken away, or I,
um, I'm Catholic and so even Ithink it was about 2018, like a
(06:07):
new report came out about sexualabuse, clergy abuse, and that
was kind of happening at thesame time as the patriarchy was
harming my personal life.
And that was just.
It really kind of reshiftedwhat I needed from God and I
think at different points in ourlives, you know, different
(06:30):
presentations of God are what weneed at the time, and so you
know, there, certainly, like thefatherhood of God can be really
healthy and really importantfor people, and it has been for
me.
But at that point it was like Ineeded a divine mother, like I
(06:52):
didn't really have a Christianimagination for that, like I had
heard that spoken of innon-Christian context and I was
kind of intrigued but also kindof felt like I didn't have
permission.
I love that you use that wordbut I think, really because I'm
Catholic, mary gave me anentryway into the divine
(07:16):
feminine and that was like afascinating on-ramp, because it
becomes so muddled of, like, arewe talking about the historical
Mary?
Are we talking now about, like afeminine image of God that we
basically have named Mary?
You know, and I'm honestly, I'mjust fascinated with that
(07:39):
question and I think it's such abeautiful similarity, honestly,
to when we talk about Jesus'sdivinity and humanity and like,
but kind of with the and I'm notsaying that they're the same,
because obviously they're notthe same, but like having a,
having imagery, having art,having something to hold on to,
for me made it much more real.
(08:01):
So I started out with, like,this newfound, like urge to to
know Mary and to really let hermother, me and unintentionally I
found that really translatevery easily to imaging a God who
is maternal, who cares for me,who who nourishes me in a more
(08:23):
feminine way than the God that Ihad been raised.
So that's a long answer to yourquestion, but I do also want to
shout out Joyce Rupp.
Have either of you read JoyceRupp's work?
I have not.
Shelly Shepherd (08:36):
No, I have not.
Shannon Evans (08:38):
Okay, so Joyce Rupp it was the one who gave me
permission to address God inother, in ways that my
imagination took hold of.
So she has one book calledPrayers to Sophia, and that was
one of the earliest ones that Ithat I had read.
(08:59):
That really gave me languagefor a divine feminine.
And then she has a book calledFragments of your Ancient Name
and it's 365 devotions and it'seach one addresses God in a
creative and an individual way.
So that's where I got the idea.
So I always have to tell peoplewith the feminist prayers, like
(09:20):
she was the OG and I know her.
Actually I have the, I have theprivilege of knowing her
because she lives, um, in mystate.
So we've met up a few times and, um, yeah, I just respect her
very much.
She's um getting on up in yearsand she's a Catholic sister who
is just um, just one of us.
(09:41):
You know, one of the one of thelike wanting to see a freer
imagination for spirituality.
Heather Drake (09:50):
So anyways, I love her.
One of the things that Shellyand I have, in our conversations
, discovered about ourselves isthat since we were very little
girls, we have had moments ofdivine connection with the
Spirit and in that beautifulthing that sometimes is unnamed
(10:13):
or uncategorized, it drew usinto a following or a furthering
of our faith, even though otherthings didn't always add up or
didn't hold up to the test oftime.
But that understanding thatsince a little girl we've heard
a voice or we've heard a soundor the spirit calling us and
(10:36):
then through different authorsoffering little bits of things,
it's been almost I don't want tosay like a breadcrumb, but like
a trail finding beautifulthings, and we both came to a
place where we kind of convergedaround the Mary Magdalene and I
have so much affection andunderstanding for this.
(11:00):
But it has also been for us nota a two month journey.
This has been like a long timeof unraveling and then a
practice of listening to adifferent sound.
Shelly Shepherd (11:13):
You.
I want to go to a couple ofthings in the mystics would like
a word, uh, shannon, andthere's a quote that you said.
Um, it's in the feministchapter, but you quote I knew
what the spirit felt like in mybody.
I don't know if you rememberthat exact sentence or piece of
(11:36):
writing, but could you talk tous a little bit about that piece
, because I think there's a lotof, maybe, misunderstanding
about the feminine spirit andhow she moves in and through the
world and even in our own livesand in our own bodies.
I just thought maybe we couldsit for a few minutes and hear
(11:58):
your thoughts about how thatfelt for you.
Shannon Evans (12:00):
It's a great question and I don't actually
remember the context necessarilyof writing that.
But that is something that,again, like Heather, you were
saying, with these things aren't, these things don't take root
in you in a month or two, it'slike a long process.
You know, it's like a longprocess, years, and for me that
(12:51):
kind of accepting or believingthat and some continuity between
my physical existence and myspiritual life, that those
weren't compartmentalized things, compartmentalized things and
so kind of um, you know, betweenthat and honestly, having some
great therapists and spiritualdirectors, I've really kind of
(13:13):
been challenged to notice andask myself like oh, this, you
know you're feeling something.
Where do you feel that in yourbody?
Whether it's discomfort oranxiety, you know so like those
things have a certain feel, orwhether it's just that sense of
(13:33):
knowing, like that bodilyknowing of confirmation that
something is true, that you havejust heard something deeply,
deeply true.
I think of when I read Sue MonkKids, the Dance of the Dissident
Daughter, and how like I justfelt that in my body like this
is true, and I've never heardanybody say these things before,
(13:56):
and it felt so true.
It's a hard thing to try toexplain.
You're nodding your head, so Iknow that, you know.
Can I go back?
Shelly Shepherd (14:05):
and maybe I could have shaped the context of
that question a little bit, butI think you were on a mission
trip in Juarez and you had thislike complete aversion to what
you thought this mission tripwas going to be like.
Shannon Evans (14:23):
Okay, yes, I do remember that.
Shelly Shepherd (14:25):
And then in your body, your body was telling
you, okay, this is not the norm, this is not how how the
witness of Christ, or the spiritof God, or the spirit, the
feminine spirit, uh, uh, feels.
And so, yeah, I was curiousabout, about that piece.
Yes, okay, yes, I would, I doremember that.
Shannon Evans (14:44):
Um, yeah, I was curious about that piece.
Yes, okay, yes, I do rememberthat.
Yeah, so for me, it was like theways that I had experienced and
that context was specificallyright evangelizing of like
sharing the good news by, youknow, talking to random
strangers or giving out tracks,or we would even like perform
(15:07):
dances in the public squares,like I don't I, I don't want to
be critical of anything, but Idon't really know how that
translated Um, for me, that wasa very new territory and not how
I had experienced God at all.
Um, I had very much come from aexperience where God is in acts
(15:31):
of mercy and people, and I havefelt that confirmation inside of
me of like this is love, thisis justice, you know, and I had
been able to identify thosethings as feeling God in my body
of like, yes, this is howhumans are meant to live, when
we are, you know, extendingmercy, working for justice, like
practicing solidarity, or just,you know, in the, in the quiet
(15:55):
spaces of nature, or journalingin my room, and feeling like
just this tender gentleness,like just this tender gentleness
, and what I was experiencingwith this new church and this
way of evangelizing, that it wasvery emphatically enforced as
the only right way.
(16:17):
And my body was just like thisfeels like not the God that I
know and I feel like I'm beingdisingenuous and and trying to
play a part.
So it's like my whole body wassort of like tense and like
recoiling.
But where I was at the time Ineeded belonging, I needed the
(16:38):
community, and so I I kind ofignored aversion to it that my
body was expressing and I justdid it anyways for the belonging
and I think a lot of peopleprobably do that.
Shelly Shepherd (16:49):
Yeah, it feels like a place that we can get
stuck and maybe we can talkabout a different point of that.
But back to you, Heather.
What are the thoughts stirredyou in this book?
Heather Drake (17:03):
I was again excited because so many of the
things that we have found nottogether but separately.
And then we found a beautifulcommunity around other women who
were saying you know, nobodyactually gave us the road to
take but to be able to followand trust our own spirit, to
trust the goodness that we knowand the things that are
(17:25):
intuitive to us.
And I think that some of thatcomes from the cultures that
we're raised in and from thebrilliant women who are in our
lives that we can glean somefrom.
But I don't think the churchhas been excellent at teaching
women to trust themselves.
Shelly Shepherd (17:44):
No, not at all.
Heather Drake (17:45):
And so I think the invitation is for the good
kingdom that is coming, for thechange that we all can agree
needs to be here for a kinder,gentler world.
We need to begin to, if wehaven't already, start trusting
our guts and to be able to say,as a woman, I can hear the voice
(18:06):
of the spirit, and it may notcome from places that people
said that it would like outsideof us, that it would come from
this inward place of a knowing,of a remembering of an ancient
sound, of a song that we'venever heard before, but once we
hear it we're like, yes, that isit.
And so the affirmation more ofour spirit when we recognize the
(18:29):
goodness, or recognize thekindness and the mercy that
comes from understanding andhearing the divine.
Those kind of things draw usfurther, I think, into a
beautiful community that isbeing built by the Spirit but is
also asking us to pay attentionto the witness that came before
us, and I was raised in adifferent church tradition, but
(18:52):
the Pentecostal holiness, and soI didn't actually believe in
any of the witness of theCatholic faith and and of those
things.
And so to to go now and to findso much treasure in the, the
preservation of the testimonythat has been there,
(19:12):
particularly the women saints,and I think, in it being 2025
right now, julian's testimonythat all will be well, all shall
be well is like this it's ananchor for everyone's soul going
okay.
This is what the women have saidbefore.
This is what we're saying nowthat we can trust the power of
(19:35):
love, that eternal love is theplace where we can, you know,
put our feet and then say youknow, we can make something
beautiful out of this.
I don't know if you've readthat poem that talks about the
world and talks about it's aterrible place, but you could
make something beautiful fromthat.
And for people that dorenovation and women who design
and make things I just lookaround going it's got good bones
(19:57):
.
We might have to knockeverything down, but we could
make something beautiful out ofit.
And I think this is the call ofthe spirit to, not just to women
, but to the voice of thefeminine, to the tenderness, to
the gentleness and the powerthat comes in that.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
(20:17):
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I was going to ask a questionthat maybe somebody else had
already asked, but do you have aparticular mystic or a
(20:41):
testimony of a woman outside ofthe Mother Mary that just rings
the bell for you?
Shannon Evans (20:45):
There's several of them in the book.
Marjorie Kemp, who is notrecognized as a Catholic saint
but is very, she's fascinatingand she's the only mother in the
book that I highlighted andshe's just an incredibly complex
and fascinating woman who couldnot be put in a box.
(21:08):
Her devotion to her childrenversus her own personal calling
and her own yeah, her own.
Her desire to pave her own wayin the world, her desire to make
use of her life to the fullest.
(21:29):
And I just related to her a lotbecause I still have young
children and I found herfascinating.
And then I write about this inthe book.
But Catherine of Siena she's thelast couple of chapters in the
book and right before I wrotethe last chapter I got
(21:51):
critically sick and almost diedof sepsis and was in the
hospital and she in the ICU andshe was really my companion
there and like unexpectedly shehad never necessarily been my
favorite or anything, but like Iwas kind of fascinated with,
like how gory and kind of grossher life was, as like a woman in
(22:13):
the Middle Ages who livedthrough plagues, and like served
sick people.
Like it was a gross life.
You know, served sick people,it was a gross life.
And so I thought about her alot and really kind of felt her
hand on my life that week in thehospital.
So, yeah, I think those two.
(22:35):
And then Teresa of Avila feelsvery motherly to me, Like I love
she, like I love her mixture ofincredible wisdom and also just
practicality.
Like she would tell people,like quit fasting, eat a bowl of
soup and take a nap, you know,like like not always, but like
if they needed it.
You know, and I just kind ofthere's something really
(22:57):
comforting about that that Ithink that women in particular
are able to give that.
That feels different than, likeif I read a male saint say the
same thing, it's fine, Like it'sgreat, there's nothing wrong
with that.
But it is like I think it'sreally important to recognize
the difference between, like,the way that we receive, like,
(23:21):
masculine voices and the waythat we receive feminine voices,
and that neither one is lessvaluable than the other one.
But they are both reallyimportant and they do tend to
land in different ways based onour own gender or our own
individual history or whatnot.
So I let yeah, those are myfaves.
(23:44):
What about you guys Favoritesaints or mystics?
Heather Drake (23:47):
I have a lot and I also struggle with being able
to say because, like one basedon one particular incident or
one place where I found need andthen found the wisdom there.
So at that particular momentthat was the favorite, found the
wisdom there.
So at that particular momentthat was the favorite, and so
again, I had mentioned earlier,but Mary Magdalene feels like
such a beautiful, expansiveplace.
(24:10):
Shelley and I have had manyconversations about this and
hopefully we'll have many more.
But then also, like some of theones that are just being
brought up now, like some of theones that are just being
brought up now, like MeganWatterson has a book out, coming
out about Thekla, and so shehad even mentioned it, and so I
went on a deep dive of whoThekla is and finding those
writings and looking at whothose people are, this woman who
(24:34):
just took it upon herself tolike, give herself permission to
do these things.
And then I'm looking at my ownlife going.
I think I'm doing those exactsame things.
You know, like I don't neednecessarily the hierarchy to say
this is the time to do it, I'vejust done it.
And so the invitation is, Ithink, by the spirit, to also to
trust ourselves to embody thatlove that we need and that we
(24:57):
are, but to also invite thepresence into, like deeper, like
yes, I'm following.
I hear it like almost hearing atuning fork and then listening
for that, you know.
And so I hear that a lot in thevoices of these women and I
love I know that you had abeautiful intentional formula
(25:18):
for who you included, but I lovethe St Bridget, yeah, um, from
and and and her relation.
A lot of times, um, inallegorical ways that myths can
handle, you know, she alsobecomes the Mary Magdalene, and
so then, how are you also StBridget and anyway.
(25:40):
So I just love that biggertruth and I think that the
stories that we had as youngerpeople growing up, like from the
Lord of the Rings and fromthose things, really remind us
of there can be so many layers.
It's not just the historical,you know, written word that we
have, but going past that intothe spirit, going.
What is the spirit revealing tous about this?
(26:02):
What is she calling us into andwhat is possible if we listen
to that voice?
What is possible for us, whatis possible for the world if we
have enough confidence in thatgentle voice.
Shelley, what are yourfavorites in?
Shelly Shepherd (26:21):
that gentle voice.
Shelley, what are yourfavorites?
Wow, I would say ditto to MaryMagdalene, for sure, and for so
many reasons that she has held aplace for so long, you know, in
the life of Jesus, even tillnow, so really high up there
(26:44):
with Mary Magdalene.
And also, I don't know, I thinkit's hard to pick a favorite
because you read, you read the,the historicity of of where they
stood and how how their workwas preserved or lost and then
was revived somehow, and I thinkyou allude to that some Shannon
(27:05):
as well.
I think maybe Julian's was what?
500 years or so, I can'tremember that work.
I don't actually remember theexact number, but one of the
things that I want to ask you.
I wanted to ask you about thisquote in regards to well, I'm
(27:25):
just fascinated with the womenand how even Marjorie Kemp oh my
goodness, her life and how shejust forged ahead with what
spirit was calling her to do.
But you mentioned in the book,we tend to adhere to precedents
(27:46):
rather than follow our own souls, and I wonder what it is about
the mystics that allowed them,even in the midst of all the
patriarchy and hierarchy thatthey were born into I mean
literally like it was beingshaped around them they seem to
(28:07):
have found their soul andconnected to that, regardless of
what somebody was telling them.
Do you see that?
I know you see it in some ofthe six that you wrote about.
But what is this precedencethat we want to hang on to
rather than listen to our ownsouls?
(28:28):
Of what spirit is calling ushigher to or further in, or
wider or more expansive?
Shannon Evans (28:37):
I kind of made the choice, as I was writing to,
to really focus on what I, whatI loved about these women or
what I felt, what I felt inparticular they had to
contribute to our conversationtoday.
But there are some things thatI'm like oh, hildegard, you
still had some, you still hadsome internalized misogynism
(29:00):
there, you know, or like youknow.
I mean, you can kind of see thatthe hold that patriarchy still
had upon them in different ways.
And so it's like, in some waysthat is disappointing, because
you know there are spiritualheroes and then in some ways
it's and I'm talking, you knowthere are spiritual heroes and
(29:21):
then in some ways it's and I'mtalking, you know it could be
micro things, but, um, but insome ways it's, it's almost
comforting of like, okay, likewe're all just doing for the
(29:43):
fight, you know that was withinthem of like it's, it's, it's
really proof of like what theydid resist or what they did
overcome overcome perhaps wasactually more meaningful than
(30:09):
had they been throwing off theentire thing, because there was
a wrestle there, there's a fightto figure it out without, and I
think that's something I mightbe going off tangent of your
question, but I think that'ssomething that is so relevant
still today, of like, how muchdo we, how much do we, stay
within institutions that are nothealthy and try to create
(30:33):
change, and then how do we knowwhen it's time to leave and what
do we do if we do leave?
You know, like these questions Imean I just I think every woman
I know is asking them right now.
Shelly Shepherd (30:47):
Well, we adhere .
We adhere to the patriarchy orthe hierarchy or the precedence
that was set in a particularbelief or dogma, and and so,
like you said, maybe we stay toolong in that pew and we can't
find the exit, but we know, ifwe, if we leave that particular
(31:09):
institution or or thatparticular posture, that it's
going to be a lonely walk untilwe find Shannon Evans Right.
Shannon Evans (31:18):
Not me, don't look for me.
Yes, no, I know.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Shelly Shepherd (31:24):
Which we were just talking about this.
Shannon, though, we weretalking in the pre-show about
Heather.
Maybe you want to share thispiece because I think it came
from you the entry point tounderstanding the mystics.
Really, your work and your bookis wow.
Like everybody needs to readthis yeah.
Heather Drake (31:47):
It is one of the things that Shelley and I were
talking about earlier, becausewhat if people haven't read any
of the mystics or haven't heardof some of these people that
we're talking about?
That we found through acts ofspirit and strange and wonderful
things.
Somebody else had aconversation and then it drew us
into further conversation, butone of the things that I
appreciated so much about thebook was that I really felt like
(32:09):
it was, and it was not in anyways like a primer or basic, but
if you'd never followed theteachings of these people or
even heard of them, this wouldbe a great place to be inspired
and be able to go.
Oh, that sounds like somethingthat could be useful to me or
could be encouraging to me orcould be hopeful, and I love the
(32:31):
.
It felt a little bit like amenu of looking at things and
going.
That would delight me.
I would like to read more aboutthat, and so that was really
beautiful.
I think that Shelly and I hadtalked about it.
If someone has never done it,it might be difficult to read.
Hildegard of Bingen, you know,just at first, and Mara by Star
is incredible, but maybe notright off the bat, because
(32:52):
that's a lot to you know, and,again, I think that she's there
to expand our vision and toteach us so much.
But I loved the idea that Ithink that if somebody was
interested and didn't know whereto start, that your book would
be such a great place to be ableto say yeah, come, listen,
here's the good water, here issomething that is for your
(33:14):
thirst, and I think that, yeah,thank you so much for all the
efforts I'm sure that you putinto that, but I think it was.
It's a beautiful place forpeople to go.
Yeah, let's, let's look forthem, let's look for the voices
of the women who can encourageus into you know, more of like a
biographical exploration andI'm like, but there are so many
books like that out there.
Shannon Evans (33:48):
You can go find them, I promise you know.
So I wanted this to be forpeople who maybe wouldn't
naturally be like so excited toread about, you know, therese of
Lisieux or something you know.
It's an intro, it's a menu.
I love that.
I love that metaphor.
Heather Drake (34:06):
Yeah, it was.
It's beautiful, we appreciate.
We appreciate that so much.
I did have one question,because I'm not sure.
So I'm guessing that there havebeen people who loved you, who
felt like maybe you were goingoff the rails or over the cliff,
and they're like you've goneoff the rails or over the cliff
and they're like you've gone toofar with this whole spirit and
with this, you know, looking formore.
And and do you have anyencouragement or salve for
(34:31):
someone who is, you know, maybebeen rubbed raw by someone who
who really believes that thatstepping outside of these
particular confines is dangerousor is harmful, and is there
anything that you can offer as aguide or as a hope for someone
who is practicing this following?
(34:51):
I?
Shannon Evans (34:54):
smiled when you said that, because visceral
memories, you know, come to mindof things that people have said
and I'm smiling.
But it can be really hurtful,especially if it's somebody that
you have a relationship with.
It's different if it's astranger on the internet.
But yeah, like you know, Ithink what I would say is that
(35:16):
one of the most, one of the mostgrounding scripture verses for
me is when Jesus says you lookto the right and to the left I'm
not quoting it verbatim, butyou're looking everywhere for
the kingdom of God, but thekingdom of God is within you,
(35:44):
God is within you, and that, Ithink, is just.
I come back to that a lotbecause at the end of the day,
you, you kind of have to to makepeace with the fact that you're
, you are responsible foryourself, Like no one.
No one is responsible for you,no one answers for you, and that
means that you can be trusted.
(36:05):
If you are made to answer foryourself at the end of the day
which I think all of us are,because nobody is, you know,
we're not robots, right?
Then that means that you werecreated to know how to get there
yourself.
You were created with a innervoice, an inner compass that is
(36:28):
trustworthy and that you canfollow.
And if Jesus said you don'thave to be looking to other
people to find the kingdom ofheaven, then that means it
really is within you.
Like you really can trust it and, of course, like that requires
wisdom and maturity and it doesrequire like finding, you know,
(36:52):
in my life it has been myspiritual director, who is a
woman in her seventies, has beenso a lay woman, has been so
formative for me because I dotrust her and so if she tells me
to trust myself, then I, then Ican a little bit more, and so I
think that having those people,um, is really important.
(37:14):
So, like I, you know, I'm notsaying like trust every idea
that ever comes into your head,but part of being human and part
of taking responsibility foryour own life is that you have
to be moving towards maturity,you have to be moving towards
wholeness and wisdom and as youdo that you'll be able to
(37:37):
distinguish more and more whatthe voice of spirit is in your
life, what that voice of wisdomis.
Heather Drake (37:43):
Thank you so much for that.
Thank you for all the wisdomthat we shared today.
I'm just so grateful that youtook time out of your family and
out of your own personal lifeto share with us.
We love the books.
Thank you so much for them.
We'll put some notes in theshow notes and in the socials,
so people want to find out moreabout where you are, where to
get your books.
(38:03):
I'm sure they can get them onAmazon, but I'm sure there's a
local bookstore that would loveto um order one for you, um, and
so we'll get that informationout.
But thank you so much, shannon,for your time.
We appreciate you.
Shelly Shepherd (38:17):
Blessing.
Great to have you, shannon.
Thank you so much for yourwisdom and your words and
placing this into everybody'shands.
Thank you for doing that, thankyou.
Heather Drake (38:28):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionistheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Good afternoon, shelley Shepard.
I'm so glad to be in thepodcast studio with you and with
(00:24):
our friend Shannon Evans.
Yes, so much, thank you.
We are so excited to be able totalk about some of the beauty
of the words that she hascreated and the invitation into
a spirituality that is reallyinclusive and, I think, full of
spirit and so welcome with me,shannon Evans and Shelley
(00:46):
Shepard.
I'm so excited that the womenare here.
The Council of Rests have begunand we are starting.
Shelly Shepherd (00:54):
Here we are.
Here we are.
Welcome, shannon, it's great tobe with you.
Good to see you, heather.
Shannon Evans (00:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited for thisconversation.
You guys are like-heartedspirits for sure.
Heather Drake (01:06):
I wanted to read from the beginning of one of the
books that you've writtenFeminist Prayers for my Daughter
, and I wanted to read theprayer for the feminine imaging
of God.
I thought that was a greatplace for us to start.
Oh, face of the divine feminine.
My daughter bears the imago dio, the image of God, in her body
(01:28):
and femininity, and yet it israre for her to see that
represented in sacred spaces.
How can she believe in her ownimago dio when she has been
stifled, subdued in ourcollective religious imagination
?
And so I pray.
I pray for a great awakening tothe divine feminine.
I pray for artists to createfrom it, I pray for pastors to
(01:52):
preach on it, I pray forliturgists to include it, I pray
for activists to draw strengthfrom it, and I pray for my
daughter to delight in it.
Do a new thing within thehearts of the people of God.
Crack us open, give us freerimaginations, expand our souls
to embrace you in the feminine,after so long in the masculine,
(02:14):
parts of us will be healed,parts of us will be challenged.
Let us be unafraid to bechanged.
And when my daughter walks intoa place of worship, let it be
with her head held high incertainty in her bones, knowing
that the essence of who shereveals to the world is the
truth of the sacred feminine.
Amen.
I love that prayer.
(02:35):
I share it with people, and then, as a church pastor, it's one
of the things that I love toshare with our congregation as
well and remind them that thisis a gift.
At the end of the podcast or aswe end, I also want to read a
prayer that you've written foraging, and one of the things
that I absolutely adore aboutthis book.
(02:56):
There's many things I like thatyou use the names of God
different ones every time.
I think that was so creativeand so expansive and beautiful.
But the idea that I am alsousing this book and I don't
think I'm the only one not justprayers for my daughter, not
just prayer for the daughtersthat we have just in the general
population, but in reparentingmyself, I don't have a mom
(03:20):
necessarily to pray those thingsfor me, but to say I can pray
this over my own self is such agift to be able to have those
words, and so I'm grateful foryour stance on including those
prayers and, yeah, a real giftto the world.
Shannon Evans (03:36):
Thank you so much .
Yeah, that actually kind ofsurprised me as I was writing
them, because I really didintend for it to be a book of
prayers for my daughter.
And the further I mean itdidn't take me long, but the
further I got into it, the moreI realized, oh, this is equally
as much writing prayers formyself.
You know, like just I mean, Iam lucky to have a mother who is
(04:01):
amazing and does pray thosekinds of prayers for me.
But you know, like, no matterwhat kind of parents we had,
like we all have that work to dowith our inner child, and
especially when we've been inreligious spaces that have been
unhealthy, it's like gosh, we'vegot to do better for that inner
child so that we can do betterfor the rest of the world too.
(04:24):
And so, yeah, it was a.
I think it was like a healingjourney for me to undertake, as
I kind of realized that it wasmuch more than just a book of
prayers for my daughter,although it is that too.
Heather Drake (04:37):
One of the things that, when you're talking,
comes to mind is this idea of avery thin place to be able to
say here I am in this actualmatter of making a prayer or
designing a prayer for adaughter that I see in the flesh
, and then to be able to go oh,but I'm also praying as a
spiritual mother, I'm alsopraying as a woman now, but as a
(04:59):
woman also in the future and inagreement with the women in the
past, and to get to that placeof going.
It feels very eternal, it feelsvery sacred, and I'm wondering
how you felt confidence, or whogave you permission to start
hearing that voice, and maybehow you learned or attuned to
(05:22):
the voice of the divine feminine.
Shannon Evans (05:23):
Yeah, that was a whopper of a journey for me too.
I mean, I didn't necessarilysee it coming and it was a
process of a couple of years,but really what started it was
kind of I was cognitively awareof the harm of patriarchy in
(05:46):
churches, but there, but once itstarted actually becoming
personal in my life and I writeabout that a little bit in the
mystics would like a word when Iactually, you know, was had
words taken away from me, or Ihad platform taken away, or I,
um, I'm Catholic and so even Ithink it was about 2018, like a
(06:07):
new report came out about sexualabuse, clergy abuse, and that
was kind of happening at thesame time as the patriarchy was
harming my personal life.
And that was just.
It really kind of reshiftedwhat I needed from God and I
think at different points in ourlives, you know, different
(06:30):
presentations of God are what weneed at the time, and so you
know, there, certainly, like thefatherhood of God can be really
healthy and really importantfor people, and it has been for
me.
But at that point it was like Ineeded a divine mother, like I
(06:52):
didn't really have a Christianimagination for that, like I had
heard that spoken of innon-Christian context and I was
kind of intrigued but also kindof felt like I didn't have
permission.
I love that you use that wordbut I think, really because I'm
Catholic, mary gave me anentryway into the divine
(07:16):
feminine and that was like afascinating on-ramp, because it
becomes so muddled of, like, arewe talking about the historical
Mary?
Are we talking now about, like afeminine image of God that we
basically have named Mary?
You know, and I'm honestly, I'mjust fascinated with that
(07:39):
question and I think it's such abeautiful similarity, honestly,
to when we talk about Jesus'sdivinity and humanity and like,
but kind of with the and I'm notsaying that they're the same,
because obviously they're notthe same, but like having a,
having imagery, having art,having something to hold on to,
for me made it much more real.
(08:01):
So I started out with, like,this newfound, like urge to to
know Mary and to really let hermother, me and unintentionally I
found that really translatevery easily to imaging a God who
is maternal, who cares for me,who who nourishes me in a more
(08:23):
feminine way than the God that Ihad been raised.
So that's a long answer to yourquestion, but I do also want to
shout out Joyce Rupp.
Have either of you read JoyceRupp's work?
I have not.
Shelly Shepherd (08:36):
No, I have not.
Shannon Evans (08:38):
Okay, so Joyce Rupp it was the one who gave me
permission to address God inother, in ways that my
imagination took hold of.
So she has one book calledPrayers to Sophia, and that was
one of the earliest ones that Ithat I had read.
(08:59):
That really gave me languagefor a divine feminine.
And then she has a book calledFragments of your Ancient Name
and it's 365 devotions and it'seach one addresses God in a
creative and an individual way.
So that's where I got the idea.
So I always have to tell peoplewith the feminist prayers, like
(09:20):
she was the OG and I know her.
Actually I have the, I have theprivilege of knowing her
because she lives, um, in mystate.
So we've met up a few times and, um, yeah, I just respect her
very much.
She's um getting on up in yearsand she's a Catholic sister who
is just um, just one of us.
(09:41):
You know, one of the one of thelike wanting to see a freer
imagination for spirituality.
Heather Drake (09:50):
So anyways, I love her.
One of the things that Shellyand I have, in our conversations
, discovered about ourselves isthat since we were very little
girls, we have had moments ofdivine connection with the
Spirit and in that beautifulthing that sometimes is unnamed
(10:13):
or uncategorized, it drew usinto a following or a furthering
of our faith, even though otherthings didn't always add up or
didn't hold up to the test oftime.
But that understanding thatsince a little girl we've heard
a voice or we've heard a soundor the spirit calling us and
(10:36):
then through different authorsoffering little bits of things,
it's been almost I don't want tosay like a breadcrumb, but like
a trail finding beautifulthings, and we both came to a
place where we kind of convergedaround the Mary Magdalene and I
have so much affection andunderstanding for this.
(11:00):
But it has also been for us nota a two month journey.
This has been like a long timeof unraveling and then a
practice of listening to adifferent sound.
Shelly Shepherd (11:13):
You.
I want to go to a couple ofthings in the mystics would like
a word, uh, shannon, andthere's a quote that you said.
Um, it's in the feministchapter, but you quote I knew
what the spirit felt like in mybody.
I don't know if you rememberthat exact sentence or piece of
(11:36):
writing, but could you talk tous a little bit about that piece
, because I think there's a lotof, maybe, misunderstanding
about the feminine spirit andhow she moves in and through the
world and even in our own livesand in our own bodies.
I just thought maybe we couldsit for a few minutes and hear
(11:58):
your thoughts about how thatfelt for you.
Shannon Evans (12:00):
It's a great question and I don't actually
remember the context necessarilyof writing that.
But that is something that,again, like Heather, you were
saying, with these things aren't, these things don't take root
in you in a month or two, it'slike a long process.
You know, it's like a longprocess, years, and for me that
(12:51):
kind of accepting or believingthat and some continuity between
my physical existence and myspiritual life, that those
weren't compartmentalized things, compartmentalized things and
so kind of um, you know, betweenthat and honestly, having some
great therapists and spiritualdirectors, I've really kind of
(13:13):
been challenged to notice andask myself like oh, this, you
know you're feeling something.
Where do you feel that in yourbody?
Whether it's discomfort oranxiety, you know so like those
things have a certain feel, orwhether it's just that sense of
(13:33):
knowing, like that bodilyknowing of confirmation that
something is true, that you havejust heard something deeply,
deeply true.
I think of when I read Sue MonkKids, the Dance of the Dissident
Daughter, and how like I justfelt that in my body like this
is true, and I've never heardanybody say these things before,
(13:56):
and it felt so true.
It's a hard thing to try toexplain.
You're nodding your head, so Iknow that, you know.
Can I go back?
Shelly Shepherd (14:05):
and maybe I could have shaped the context of
that question a little bit, butI think you were on a mission
trip in Juarez and you had thislike complete aversion to what
you thought this mission tripwas going to be like.
Shannon Evans (14:23):
Okay, yes, I do remember that.
Shelly Shepherd (14:25):
And then in your body, your body was telling
you, okay, this is not the norm, this is not how how the
witness of Christ, or the spiritof God, or the spirit, the
feminine spirit, uh, uh, feels.
And so, yeah, I was curiousabout, about that piece.
Yes, okay, yes, I would, I doremember that.
Shannon Evans (14:44):
Um, yeah, I was curious about that piece.
Yes, okay, yes, I do rememberthat.
Yeah, so for me, it was like theways that I had experienced and
that context was specificallyright evangelizing of like
sharing the good news by, youknow, talking to random
strangers or giving out tracks,or we would even like perform
(15:07):
dances in the public squares,like I don't I, I don't want to
be critical of anything, but Idon't really know how that
translated Um, for me, that wasa very new territory and not how
I had experienced God at all.
Um, I had very much come from aexperience where God is in acts
(15:31):
of mercy and people, and I havefelt that confirmation inside of
me of like this is love, thisis justice, you know, and I had
been able to identify thosethings as feeling God in my body
of like, yes, this is howhumans are meant to live, when
we are, you know, extendingmercy, working for justice, like
practicing solidarity, or just,you know, in the, in the quiet
(15:55):
spaces of nature, or journalingin my room, and feeling like
just this tender gentleness,like just this tender gentleness
, and what I was experiencingwith this new church and this
way of evangelizing, that it wasvery emphatically enforced as
the only right way.
(16:17):
And my body was just like thisfeels like not the God that I
know and I feel like I'm beingdisingenuous and and trying to
play a part.
So it's like my whole body wassort of like tense and like
recoiling.
But where I was at the time Ineeded belonging, I needed the
(16:38):
community, and so I I kind ofignored aversion to it that my
body was expressing and I justdid it anyways for the belonging
and I think a lot of peopleprobably do that.
Shelly Shepherd (16:49):
Yeah, it feels like a place that we can get
stuck and maybe we can talkabout a different point of that.
But back to you, Heather.
What are the thoughts stirredyou in this book?
Heather Drake (17:03):
I was again excited because so many of the
things that we have found nottogether but separately.
And then we found a beautifulcommunity around other women who
were saying you know, nobodyactually gave us the road to
take but to be able to followand trust our own spirit, to
trust the goodness that we knowand the things that are
(17:25):
intuitive to us.
And I think that some of thatcomes from the cultures that
we're raised in and from thebrilliant women who are in our
lives that we can glean somefrom.
But I don't think the churchhas been excellent at teaching
women to trust themselves.
Shelly Shepherd (17:44):
No, not at all.
Heather Drake (17:45):
And so I think the invitation is for the good
kingdom that is coming, for thechange that we all can agree
needs to be here for a kinder,gentler world.
We need to begin to, if wehaven't already, start trusting
our guts and to be able to say,as a woman, I can hear the voice
(18:06):
of the spirit, and it may notcome from places that people
said that it would like outsideof us, that it would come from
this inward place of a knowing,of a remembering of an ancient
sound, of a song that we'venever heard before, but once we
hear it we're like, yes, that isit.
And so the affirmation more ofour spirit when we recognize the
(18:29):
goodness, or recognize thekindness and the mercy that
comes from understanding andhearing the divine.
Those kind of things draw usfurther, I think, into a
beautiful community that isbeing built by the Spirit but is
also asking us to pay attentionto the witness that came before
us, and I was raised in adifferent church tradition, but
(18:52):
the Pentecostal holiness, and soI didn't actually believe in
any of the witness of theCatholic faith and and of those
things.
And so to to go now and to findso much treasure in the, the
preservation of the testimonythat has been there,
(19:12):
particularly the women saints,and I think, in it being 2025
right now, julian's testimonythat all will be well, all shall
be well is like this it's ananchor for everyone's soul going
okay.
This is what the women have saidbefore.
This is what we're saying nowthat we can trust the power of
(19:35):
love, that eternal love is theplace where we can, you know,
put our feet and then say youknow, we can make something
beautiful out of this.
I don't know if you've readthat poem that talks about the
world and talks about it's aterrible place, but you could
make something beautiful fromthat.
And for people that dorenovation and women who design
and make things I just lookaround going it's got good bones
(19:57):
.
We might have to knockeverything down, but we could
make something beautiful out ofit.
And I think this is the call ofthe spirit to, not just to women
, but to the voice of thefeminine, to the tenderness, to
the gentleness and the powerthat comes in that.
We want to pause and take amoment and let you know how glad
(20:17):
we are that you've joined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
I was going to ask a questionthat maybe somebody else had
already asked, but do you have aparticular mystic or a
(20:41):
testimony of a woman outside ofthe Mother Mary that just rings
the bell for you?
Shannon Evans (20:45):
There's several of them in the book.
Marjorie Kemp, who is notrecognized as a Catholic saint
but is very, she's fascinatingand she's the only mother in the
book that I highlighted andshe's just an incredibly complex
and fascinating woman who couldnot be put in a box.
(21:08):
Her devotion to her childrenversus her own personal calling
and her own yeah, her own.
Her desire to pave her own wayin the world, her desire to make
use of her life to the fullest.
(21:29):
And I just related to her a lotbecause I still have young
children and I found herfascinating.
And then I write about this inthe book.
But Catherine of Siena she's thelast couple of chapters in the
book and right before I wrotethe last chapter I got
(21:51):
critically sick and almost diedof sepsis and was in the
hospital and she in the ICU andshe was really my companion
there and like unexpectedly shehad never necessarily been my
favorite or anything, but like Iwas kind of fascinated with,
like how gory and kind of grossher life was, as like a woman in
(22:13):
the Middle Ages who livedthrough plagues, and like served
sick people.
Like it was a gross life.
You know, served sick people,it was a gross life.
And so I thought about her alot and really kind of felt her
hand on my life that week in thehospital.
So, yeah, I think those two.
(22:35):
And then Teresa of Avila feelsvery motherly to me, Like I love
she, like I love her mixture ofincredible wisdom and also just
practicality.
Like she would tell people,like quit fasting, eat a bowl of
soup and take a nap, you know,like like not always, but like
if they needed it.
You know, and I just kind ofthere's something really
(22:57):
comforting about that that Ithink that women in particular
are able to give that.
That feels different than, likeif I read a male saint say the
same thing, it's fine, Like it'sgreat, there's nothing wrong
with that.
But it is like I think it'sreally important to recognize
the difference between, like,the way that we receive, like,
(23:21):
masculine voices and the waythat we receive feminine voices,
and that neither one is lessvaluable than the other one.
But they are both reallyimportant and they do tend to
land in different ways based onour own gender or our own
individual history or whatnot.
So I let yeah, those are myfaves.
(23:44):
What about you guys Favoritesaints or mystics?
Heather Drake (23:47):
I have a lot and I also struggle with being able
to say because, like one basedon one particular incident or
one place where I found need andthen found the wisdom there.
So at that particular momentthat was the favorite, found the
wisdom there.
So at that particular momentthat was the favorite, and so
again, I had mentioned earlier,but Mary Magdalene feels like
such a beautiful, expansiveplace.
(24:10):
Shelley and I have had manyconversations about this and
hopefully we'll have many more.
But then also, like some of theones that are just being
brought up now, like some of theones that are just being
brought up now, like MeganWatterson has a book out, coming
out about Thekla, and so shehad even mentioned it, and so I
went on a deep dive of whoThekla is and finding those
writings and looking at whothose people are, this woman who
(24:34):
just took it upon herself tolike, give herself permission to
do these things.
And then I'm looking at my ownlife going.
I think I'm doing those exactsame things.
You know, like I don't neednecessarily the hierarchy to say
this is the time to do it, I'vejust done it.
And so the invitation is, Ithink, by the spirit, to also to
trust ourselves to embody thatlove that we need and that we
(24:57):
are, but to also invite thepresence into, like deeper, like
yes, I'm following.
I hear it like almost hearing atuning fork and then listening
for that, you know.
And so I hear that a lot in thevoices of these women and I
love I know that you had abeautiful intentional formula
(25:18):
for who you included, but I lovethe St Bridget, yeah, um, from
and and and her relation.
A lot of times, um, inallegorical ways that myths can
handle, you know, she alsobecomes the Mary Magdalene, and
so then, how are you also StBridget and anyway.
(25:40):
So I just love that biggertruth and I think that the
stories that we had as youngerpeople growing up, like from the
Lord of the Rings and fromthose things, really remind us
of there can be so many layers.
It's not just the historical,you know, written word that we
have, but going past that intothe spirit, going.
What is the spirit revealing tous about this?
(26:02):
What is she calling us into andwhat is possible if we listen
to that voice?
What is possible for us, whatis possible for the world if we
have enough confidence in thatgentle voice.
Shelley, what are yourfavorites in?
Shelly Shepherd (26:21):
that gentle voice.
Shelley, what are yourfavorites?
Wow, I would say ditto to MaryMagdalene, for sure, and for so
many reasons that she has held aplace for so long, you know, in
the life of Jesus, even tillnow, so really high up there
(26:44):
with Mary Magdalene.
And also, I don't know, I thinkit's hard to pick a favorite
because you read, you read the,the historicity of of where they
stood and how how their workwas preserved or lost and then
was revived somehow, and I thinkyou allude to that some Shannon
(27:05):
as well.
I think maybe Julian's was what?
500 years or so, I can'tremember that work.
I don't actually remember theexact number, but one of the
things that I want to ask you.
I wanted to ask you about thisquote in regards to well, I'm
(27:25):
just fascinated with the womenand how even Marjorie Kemp oh my
goodness, her life and how shejust forged ahead with what
spirit was calling her to do.
But you mentioned in the book,we tend to adhere to precedents
(27:46):
rather than follow our own souls, and I wonder what it is about
the mystics that allowed them,even in the midst of all the
patriarchy and hierarchy thatthey were born into I mean
literally like it was beingshaped around them they seem to
(28:07):
have found their soul andconnected to that, regardless of
what somebody was telling them.
Do you see that?
I know you see it in some ofthe six that you wrote about.
But what is this precedencethat we want to hang on to
rather than listen to our ownsouls?
(28:28):
Of what spirit is calling ushigher to or further in, or
wider or more expansive?
Shannon Evans (28:37):
I kind of made the choice, as I was writing to,
to really focus on what I, whatI loved about these women or
what I felt, what I felt inparticular they had to
contribute to our conversationtoday.
But there are some things thatI'm like oh, hildegard, you
still had some, you still hadsome internalized misogynism
(29:00):
there, you know, or like youknow.
I mean, you can kind of see thatthe hold that patriarchy still
had upon them in different ways.
And so it's like, in some waysthat is disappointing, because
you know there are spiritualheroes and then in some ways
it's and I'm talking, you knowthere are spiritual heroes and
(29:21):
then in some ways it's and I'mtalking, you know it could be
micro things, but, um, but insome ways it's, it's almost
comforting of like, okay, likewe're all just doing for the
(29:43):
fight, you know that was withinthem of like it's, it's, it's
really proof of like what theydid resist or what they did
overcome overcome perhaps wasactually more meaningful than
(30:09):
had they been throwing off theentire thing, because there was
a wrestle there, there's a fightto figure it out without, and I
think that's something I mightbe going off tangent of your
question, but I think that'ssomething that is so relevant
still today, of like, how muchdo we, how much do we, stay
within institutions that are nothealthy and try to create
(30:33):
change, and then how do we knowwhen it's time to leave and what
do we do if we do leave?
You know, like these questions Imean I just I think every woman
I know is asking them right now.
Shelly Shepherd (30:47):
Well, we adhere .
We adhere to the patriarchy orthe hierarchy or the precedence
that was set in a particularbelief or dogma, and and so,
like you said, maybe we stay toolong in that pew and we can't
find the exit, but we know, ifwe, if we leave that particular
(31:09):
institution or or thatparticular posture, that it's
going to be a lonely walk untilwe find Shannon Evans Right.
Shannon Evans (31:18):
Not me, don't look for me.
Yes, no, I know.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Shelly Shepherd (31:24):
Which we were just talking about this.
Shannon, though, we weretalking in the pre-show about
Heather.
Maybe you want to share thispiece because I think it came
from you the entry point tounderstanding the mystics.
Really, your work and your bookis wow.
Like everybody needs to readthis yeah.
Heather Drake (31:47):
It is one of the things that Shelley and I were
talking about earlier, becausewhat if people haven't read any
of the mystics or haven't heardof some of these people that
we're talking about?
That we found through acts ofspirit and strange and wonderful
things.
Somebody else had aconversation and then it drew us
into further conversation, butone of the things that I
appreciated so much about thebook was that I really felt like
(32:09):
it was, and it was not in anyways like a primer or basic, but
if you'd never followed theteachings of these people or
even heard of them, this wouldbe a great place to be inspired
and be able to go.
Oh, that sounds like somethingthat could be useful to me or
could be encouraging to me orcould be hopeful, and I love the
(32:31):
.
It felt a little bit like amenu of looking at things and
going.
That would delight me.
I would like to read more aboutthat, and so that was really
beautiful.
I think that Shelly and I hadtalked about it.
If someone has never done it,it might be difficult to read.
Hildegard of Bingen, you know,just at first, and Mara by Star
is incredible, but maybe notright off the bat, because
(32:52):
that's a lot to you know, and,again, I think that she's there
to expand our vision and toteach us so much.
But I loved the idea that Ithink that if somebody was
interested and didn't know whereto start, that your book would
be such a great place to be ableto say yeah, come, listen,
here's the good water, here issomething that is for your
(33:14):
thirst, and I think that, yeah,thank you so much for all the
efforts I'm sure that you putinto that, but I think it was.
It's a beautiful place forpeople to go.
Yeah, let's, let's look forthem, let's look for the voices
of the women who can encourageus into you know, more of like a
biographical exploration andI'm like, but there are so many
books like that out there.
Shannon Evans (33:48):
You can go find them, I promise you know.
So I wanted this to be forpeople who maybe wouldn't
naturally be like so excited toread about, you know, therese of
Lisieux or something you know.
It's an intro, it's a menu.
I love that.
I love that metaphor.
Heather Drake (34:06):
Yeah, it was.
It's beautiful, we appreciate.
We appreciate that so much.
I did have one question,because I'm not sure.
So I'm guessing that there havebeen people who loved you, who
felt like maybe you were goingoff the rails or over the cliff,
and they're like you've goneoff the rails or over the cliff
and they're like you've gone toofar with this whole spirit and
with this, you know, looking formore.
And and do you have anyencouragement or salve for
(34:31):
someone who is, you know, maybebeen rubbed raw by someone who
who really believes that thatstepping outside of these
particular confines is dangerousor is harmful, and is there
anything that you can offer as aguide or as a hope for someone
who is practicing this following?
(34:51):
I?
Shannon Evans (34:54):
smiled when you said that, because visceral
memories, you know, come to mindof things that people have said
and I'm smiling.
But it can be really hurtful,especially if it's somebody that
you have a relationship with.
It's different if it's astranger on the internet.
But yeah, like you know, Ithink what I would say is that
(35:16):
one of the most, one of the mostgrounding scripture verses for
me is when Jesus says you lookto the right and to the left I'm
not quoting it verbatim, butyou're looking everywhere for
the kingdom of God, but thekingdom of God is within you,
(35:44):
God is within you, and that, Ithink, is just.
I come back to that a lotbecause at the end of the day,
you, you kind of have to to makepeace with the fact that you're
, you are responsible foryourself, Like no one.
No one is responsible for you,no one answers for you, and that
means that you can be trusted.
(36:05):
If you are made to answer foryourself at the end of the day
which I think all of us are,because nobody is, you know,
we're not robots, right?
Then that means that you werecreated to know how to get there
yourself.
You were created with a innervoice, an inner compass that is
(36:28):
trustworthy and that you canfollow.
And if Jesus said you don'thave to be looking to other
people to find the kingdom ofheaven, then that means it
really is within you.
Like you really can trust it and, of course, like that requires
wisdom and maturity and it doesrequire like finding, you know,
(36:52):
in my life it has been myspiritual director, who is a
woman in her seventies, has beenso a lay woman, has been so
formative for me because I dotrust her and so if she tells me
to trust myself, then I, then Ican a little bit more, and so I
think that having those people,um, is really important.
(37:14):
So, like I, you know, I'm notsaying like trust every idea
that ever comes into your head,but part of being human and part
of taking responsibility foryour own life is that you have
to be moving towards maturity,you have to be moving towards
wholeness and wisdom and as youdo that you'll be able to
(37:37):
distinguish more and more whatthe voice of spirit is in your
life, what that voice of wisdomis.
Heather Drake (37:43):
Thank you so much for that.
Thank you for all the wisdomthat we shared today.
I'm just so grateful that youtook time out of your family and
out of your own personal lifeto share with us.
We love the books.
Thank you so much for them.
We'll put some notes in theshow notes and in the socials,
so people want to find out moreabout where you are, where to
get your books.
(38:03):
I'm sure they can get them onAmazon, but I'm sure there's a
local bookstore that would loveto um order one for you, um, and
so we'll get that informationout.
But thank you so much, shannon,for your time.
We appreciate you.
Shelly Shepherd (38:17):
Blessing.
Great to have you, shannon.
Thank you so much for yourwisdom and your words and
placing this into everybody'shands.
Thank you for doing that, thankyou.
Heather Drake (38:28):
It was our joy to have you listen to our
conversation today.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionistheologycom.
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