May 2, 2025 • 32 mins
What if the cosmic significance and divine orchestration of our lives were revealed in an ancient text? Together, we'll unravel the profound connection between the vast universe and our everyday experiences. Focusing on Mary 6:1-2, we'll discuss Peter's acknowledgment of Jesus' extraordinary love for Mary Magdalene and her unique spiritual perception.
Moreover, we venture into the transformative role of women in early Christianity, through the lens of the Gospel of Mary. We ponder why Mary Magdalene might have been entrusted with unique teachings from Jesus and explore her openness, vulnerability, and deep attentiveness. This discussion extends to other influential women in Jesus' life, like his mother Mary, and the reverence they commanded. Closing our episode, we delve into the boundless nature of unconditional love, illustrating how it transcends judgments and liberates us. Embrace this heartfelt exploration and find inspiration to deepen your relationship with the Spirit of God.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heather Drake (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Shelly Shepherd (00:18):
Hey, Heather Drake, welcome to the
Expansionist Podcast.
So excited to have you here sowe can talk more about the
Gospel of.
Heather Drake (00:25):
Mary, welcome, I feel welcomed and I am thrilled
to be able to talk with youabout the Gospel of Mary and our
pursuit or our intentionfocused attention to be able to
say how do we engage with theSpirit, in what the Spirit is
doing in us and in the worldaround us and in the galaxy at
(00:48):
large.
Shelly Shepherd (00:50):
I love that cosmic um vibration that you
have always expanding us outinto the galaxies.
Heather Drake (00:59):
Thank you for that.
You can blame the James Webbtelescope for that no, you can't
Stars from the time that I waslittle.
But that idea that the scandalof the particular, that we in
the galaxy, that is so big inthe cosmos, that is so vast,
that we live on this planet,that we have this awareness that
(01:21):
this is the time that we havebeen gifted, that we're in this
location, that spirit had workedit out so that you and I could
have a meeting together and havea friendship together.
I mean all of those things thathad to line up so that we can
be here right now.
I savor that as an invitationinto the divine.
(01:41):
But, yes, and then remembering,it's not just this minuscule
version right now, it's whathappens to the whole world,
because we join with the cloudof unknowing.
We join with everyone who hasgone before, everyone who will
come after us, with the galaxiesthat are singing, with the
(02:03):
trees and the animals that arealso declaring that love is real
.
I'm excited to be a part ofthat.
So, yes, I do involve thegalaxies, because I think this
is way bigger than we evenimagined.
Shelly Shepherd (02:16):
And such expansive an invitation as we
dive into the gospel of Mary.
If we look at it from thatcosmos platform that you just
built in, about what a minute orless for us.
How can we not be amazed atwhat we are holding in our hands
(02:43):
in this gospel?
Heather Drake (02:43):
Well, I think that one of the first things
that everyone needs to come backto, amazed at what we are
holding in our hands in thisgospel.
Well, I think that one of thefirst things that everyone needs
to come back to and this is notan idea that is started with me
is that awe is so important todrawing us into the divine
Wonder, is such an essentialpart of us, reigniting our
humanity and our place in allthings that God has created and
(03:08):
is creating.
And so, when I look at thebeauty of the invitation of the
gospel of Mary and again, justthe incredible way that the
gospel has come to us in thiscentury, and to listen to her
invitation to return to the good, listen to her perspective,
(03:29):
listen to her witness to us ofJesus and the words of Jesus
that came to give us life, andlife to the fullest, Wow, this
is going to be fun.
Shelly Shepherd (03:42):
Thank you for opening this up to share with
others and to have thisconversation.
We're going to jump into theGospel of Mary.
Mary 6, 1, verses.
Chapter 6, verses 1 and 2 ofthe Gospel of Mary Sister, we
know the Savior, okay.
So Peter says to Mary in hergospel Sister, we know the
(04:06):
Savior.
Okay.
So Peter says to Mary in hergospel Sister, we know the
Savior loved you more than allthe other women.
That's Mary 6.1.
Because of this, peter thenasks Mary, tell us the words of
the Savior that you remember,the things which you know that
we don't because we haven'theard them.
That's Mary 6.2.
(04:30):
So I wondered today if we couldlook at these two passages,
these two verses in the Gospelof Mary, and just unpack them.
What do they mean to us?
What you know?
What does it mean?
That the Savior loved MaryMagdalene more than all other
(04:53):
women?
Heather Drake (04:54):
What does that mean to you?
One of the first things it doesto me is excite me to be able
to say I want to hear what shehas to say then, to be able to
say I want to hear what she hasto say then because I want to
know, yeah, the beautiful,intimate things that Jesus
shared with her, or even herfocused attention on his words,
(05:16):
on him, on the truth that he wasliving and breathing and being.
And Mary was there, payingattention, and her love brought
her to places that perhaps thepeople around, who didn't
recognize this particular time,this particular moment, how holy
it was, how sacred it was.
I have a suspicion, and it isonly a suspicion, but to me it
(05:41):
is very it's exciting to thinkabout that, but to me it is very
it's exciting to think aboutthat.
One of the things that Mary didwas recognize a moment, and the
reason that I have an idea thatshe could do that is that the
anointing stories that the othergospels tell of her she was
aware of a moment and then heldit holy and sacred and said this
(06:04):
needs oil, this needsremembrance, this needs spirit
on it, and I think that thatkind of thing, even when Peter
is saying to her teach us thingsthat you heard, that we didn't
hear.
And I don't mean that in any way, that you know that perhaps
Jesus was saying something toher that he wasn't saying to
(06:27):
anyone else, but it says to meof her attention paid, she heard
things because she waslistening.
She heard things because shepostured herself in such a way
that everything that he spokeshe saw as valuable.
Everything that she spoke, hespoke, she recognized the holy
on, and so that's very inspiringto me, that the whispers, that
(06:52):
the intentions were not lostjust because the boys were busy
fishing or whatever it was thatthey were doing, but that when
Jesus was speaking and talkingand being that, there was a
woman there who was payingattention and marking it holy
and bringing her focused, holyattention to it, and maybe she
(07:15):
just had a better memory thanthe boys did.
I don't know, but there werethings that Jesus was saying and
the boys were like oh, tell us,tell us those things because
you were paying attention.
Shelly Shepherd (07:25):
I like the paying attention piece.
I'm not going to disagree withthat, and I would add that you
know the passage doesn't saythat he only loved one woman.
Mary.
It's like he loved her morethan all the other women.
Right?
That's what it said, yes,meaning he loved the other women
(07:51):
.
There were other women thatministered to him.
I'm sure there's other womenthat may have anointed him, that
broke bread with him, that seta table with him, that walked to
the beach with him.
I'm sure there were others.
It wasn't just Mary Magdalene,but there was this singular
focus that Mary Magdalene hadand maybe it was the attention,
maybe it was the focusedattention that caused him to see
(08:14):
and communicate to herdifferently.
You and I have read and read andreread these seven powers that
Mary has been.
That's noted in a differentchapter in Mary's gospel and
maybe we'll get to those powerson a different podcast, but it's
possible in my you know justfrom where I'm sitting that
(08:38):
maybe the reason that he lovedher more is that she had already
tuned a frequency, she hadalready lined up a resonance,
there was something that hecommunicated that when she
received it, wow, it waseverlasting, it never left, it
(08:59):
didn't disappear.
It's also interesting that theGospels didn't say that the
women had a problem with the waythat Jesus loved Mary.
It was the men that had aproblem with the way that Jesus
loved Mary.
But I love that, that focusedintention, that singular form of
(09:19):
communication that they musthave had Just a beautiful,
beautiful expansion.
And we get it right here inMary 6.1.
Heather Drake (09:30):
When I read this text, it re-enchants the other
texts to me.
It reminds me that the witness,that the four gospels that we
have readily available to us,that we've used for generations
to tell the story of Jesus, thatI love this new lens that we
(09:52):
get to put on and we get to seeit through this vantage point of
Mary and part of her teachingsthat she received from Jesus.
One of the things that is areally important anchor to me as
we expand our understanding, aswe expand our practices, as we
expand love between us, betweenthe world, between every living
(10:16):
thing, is this idea that love isthe way Love has always been
the way.
God is love, and so when Iallow the anchor of love to
place me firmly in the source ofGod, I feel so much confidence
that this imagination that wecan have allows us to see with
(10:40):
the eye of the heart, allows usto see past a written, specific,
literal version, but to be ableto see and imagine what it is
like to be in the presence oflove even now, what it would be
like to prepare a table for ourenemies, what would it be like
to prepare ourselves for thelove of neighbor and to honor
(11:05):
the love that is in us already.
These texts and the other onesfrom the Gospel of Mary and from
the Gospel of Thomas and theGospel of Philip, those lenses
that are new to me certainlythey're not new to everyone, but
they're newish to me.
I've not been handling them for50 years like we have other
(11:26):
texts excited for what can bebirthed in me after hearing this
witness, after listening to thevoice of Spirit, after soaking
in the text and in thegraciousness and asking the Holy
Spirit among us to bringrevelation, open our eyes.
Let us see Jesus the way thatJesus wants to be seen.
(11:47):
Let us dance with Spirit, letus follow the Holy Spirit into
radical love that provideshospitality for everyone who
desires to be in God.
Shelly Shepherd (11:58):
Yes and Heather , I am reminded that these texts
the gospel of Mary, Thomas,Philip, some of the other ones
that didn't make it into eventhe apocryphal books at the time
(12:18):
were actually, some of them,written before the Gospels or
about the same time as theGospels, as we're learning, were
written, were written.
And so what that does for myspirit and for my understanding
is it reminds me that this lovethat Christ had for Mary had not
(12:44):
one ounce to do with anythingthat was written in the four
gospels.
And so I take that and jump offof the diving board into the
deepest end of my being and Icarry this with me because, you
know, to me this is just a huge,a huge shift.
(13:05):
And I'm not saying throw outthe gospels of Matthew, Mark,
Luke or John.
We have been born and bred onthose, we know them in many ways
like the back of our hand, andyet I am reminded that the love
that he demonstrated towards herand for her had nothing to do
(13:28):
with any of those stories thingto do with any of those stories.
Heather Drake (13:36):
There's a saying that says familiarity breeds
contempt, and I think sometimeswe are contemptuous when we
consider the works or thewitness or the testimony that we
have heard for our whole livesand maybe the way that we've
been hearing those things.
We can also get to a placewhere we're like, well, I don't
see how that works or I don'tsee how that matters.
And I love that the gospel ofMary invites us to look again
(13:59):
with fresh eyes, perhaps to lookagain and to say what is the
teaching of Jesus?
And I would like to say, beforeany of us panic and though
maybe no one has panicked at all, or maybe you're clutching your
pearls going what are theytalking about?
How can there be more?
That many testimonies in thegospel tell us this that the
(14:24):
world couldn't hold everywritten account of what Jesus
did or said, if that waspossible.
So we do have a very narrowslice of what it was, what all
of the things that Jesus did,all of the things that Jesus
said, and so we can trust theHoly Spirit to bring us
(14:46):
revelation and we can judge that, or we can trust that because
if it brings us back to love ifit brings us back to our true
selves, our souls that have beennamed by God as very good.
If it brings us back to that,we can have confidence.
(15:08):
And so I don't have tonecessarily have confidence that
I've heard this story since Iwas a little girl.
In fact, I'm really glad thatI'm hearing it now.
I mean, maybe it would havebeen great to hear it as a young
person, but where I'm hearingit now is that there is more,
and it is an invitation into anascended way to live.
(15:30):
It's an invitation into ahigher thought.
It's an invitation into apractice that makes love the way
that we do everything.
Shelly Shepherd (15:39):
Yeah, I love that thought and I also wish
that I had had it when I wasyoung.
At the same time, I am nearly100% sure that if I had this
understanding, that patriarchywouldn't have maybe taken the
(16:02):
hold that it has taken in thelives of many women and many
individuals at this juncture inour histories.
You know, I mean, that's what Iwonder, and so wishing that it
had been more prevalent inconversations in theological
(16:24):
circles or in Sunday schoolclasses, or you know, from those
preaching.
But again, at the same time, ifit's, if it's male preachers,
um, you know, there you havethat piece.
So here we are.
Here we are with, with Mary,6-1, and um, the Savior loved
(16:47):
her more than all other women,so we'll let that one stand.
Heather Drake (16:52):
We want to pause and take a moment and let you
know how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
Online community.
Visit our website atexpansionistheologycom.
(17:12):
Let's jump to 6-2.
Shelly Shepherd (17:14):
I want to read it again Because of this.
Peter then asked Mary, tell usthe words of the Savior that you
remember, the things which youknow that we don't because we
haven't heard them.
Mary 6-2.
We're going to speculate hereas to why, heather, that Jesus
did not share these things withthe boys.
Heather Drake (17:40):
I'll let you speculate first and then I will.
Well, actually, I want tohesitate from speculation,
because I will tell you that,instead of speculation or
judgment, I will tell you onlyfrom my own experience there is
a presence that a woman can holdfor you and an intention that I
(18:00):
have not found practiced in alot of the sons that I have, the
brothers that I have, thefathers that I have, the husband
that I have.
There is a singularity that Ibelieve that women can hold, and
I'm assuming this is thesingularity that Jesus was
(18:22):
honored to have been witnessedby Interesting answer, my friend
.
Shelly Shepherd (18:26):
Well, the first thing I see here in this
particular verse is that Peterasks Mary so we know some things
about Peter already throughyears of being taught about his
temperament.
Tell us the words of the Saviorthat you remember, the things
which you know that we don'tbecause we haven't heard them.
(18:48):
Not understanding the tone inwhich he is asking Mary this
question, if we read on in someof the rest of her gospel, he
gets pretty aggressive with herin his questioning, in so much
(19:09):
that Levi steps in and asks himto back down.
You know why are youdistrusting her?
She's answering Jesus loved her, obviously, and told her these
things, and so, whether it'sspeculation or accuracy, there
(19:29):
was this forwardness in Peter ofwanting to know why Jesus did
not give him this informationand only shared it with a woman.
I think there was a problemright for him.
And we read later in the Gospelof Mary where she just says
(19:52):
basically she says you know,peter just has an issue with
women in general, right Like hejust doesn't like the human race
of women, and so maybe inchapter six he was trying to be
a little bit inquisitive.
Maybe in chapter six he wastrying to be a little bit
(20:19):
inquisitive, maybe usingcuriosity to get his question
answered.
And yet I have to myself justthink what intense pressure she
must have felt even by thatquestion.
Why would Jesus tell you andnot us?
Maybe because she was listening.
Heather Drake (20:32):
Why would Jesus tell you and not us?
Maybe because she was listening.
Maybe Jesus did not have andthese are maybes but maybe Jesus
did not have the energy tofight for someone's attention
and maybe Mary was alreadyattentive to the words.
(21:01):
Maybe she saw him Matthew, mark,luke and John and that if you
also read the gospel of Mary andPhilip and Thomas, you will see
a witness of the fact that Marysaw Jesus and Jesus saw Mary,
that there was a oneness betweenthem, and I think that that's
an invitation for all of us, forall of us, that we could also
have a relationship where Jesuscommunes with us.
(21:23):
I mean, jesus even prayed forthis for us in John's gospel
gives us an invitation to listeninto that prayer where he says
Father, make them one, the sameas you and I are one.
And so you know what would itlook like for us to acknowledge
our own oneness with God and theinvitation of Jesus to be seen
by God, to open ourselves up.
And maybe she trusted him,maybe she was vulnerable, maybe
(21:47):
she made herself available,maybe she was listening.
I don't know those things, butall of those things are hopeful
thoughts to me into how I canopen myself more to the Spirit
of God, to the love of Christ,to an empowerment to see things
with more hope than the worldsees them.
Shelly Shepherd (22:09):
I think that is the hope of this text in the
Gospel of Mary Heather is thatif we're given this information
out of her gospel, then it hasto be for us.
As women, we have to be movedby the fact that he told her
some things that he did not tellanyone else, male or female.
Heather Drake (22:32):
And Shelley, I suspect he didn't just tell Mary
things, the Mary Magdalene Imean.
I suspect he told his motherMary things that maybe he hadn't
told anyone else.
And I suspect you know sisters,aunts, you know the mother of
James.
That is often you know.
So there's women here who arerecognizing the bread of life,
(22:54):
who are recognizing thesacredness, who are recognizing
the specialness, who arerecognizing the divine, and in
that place of recognition theyhold the reverence that allows
this truth to be expanded tothem.
Shelly Shepherd (23:12):
I'm sitting with that for a minute because,
of course, yes and amen, but wewere not told that, we were not
taught that necessarily.
Well, maybe, maybe throughmother Mary or Jesus
communicating with miracles orthings that she wanted
(23:34):
specifically to um, to say tohim, but we didn't even get all,
all of mother Mary's stories.
So that's a whole notherpodcast, maybe.
But my point is, of course hetold other women, of course
other women touched him orlistens to him, or uh.
(23:56):
But that's the beauty of thisgospel, Heather, is that we are
given now documents that say tous research that says to us God
wants to speak through you or toyou.
Take this opportunity andattune and align yourself so
(24:18):
that spirit, so that wisdom, sothat love can be moved between
you and the divine.
I think that's also theinvitation of the gospel of Mary
, is that?
Heather Drake (24:34):
wow.
And one of the things that Ithink that it also invites us to
do, though, is move beyond theliteral or beyond the idea of
now.
I have to have proof that Iwould give up or surrender
certainty and move into therealm of spirit and of love, and
move into the realm ofembracing the mystery, but
(24:58):
absolutely coming to grips withthe fact that the four gospels,
as we know them, do not give usthe complete picture that give
us an entry point, but thatwe're invited not to stay in the
entrance but to enter intocompletely.
Allow the spirit to bring usrevelation, to bring us truth,
(25:22):
to bring us grace.
When Jesus says it's better foryou if I leave, I'm going to
send you a paraclete, I'm goingto send you a helper, I'm going
to send you my spirit, and youwon't need a teacher.
You'll be full of the spirit,and the spirit will lead you,
and this invitation, I believe,from the gospel of Mary is an
(25:43):
invitation into life, in thespirit, as we have never
experienced it or never seen it,and these practices, again,
don't lead us into now.
Mary is our teacher, but Maryshowed us where the door is, and
now we can enter.
That same way, we honor this.
Why isn't Mary our teacher?
Well, let me rephrase that Marycan be our teacher, but I
(26:06):
believe that, even beyond Mary,that spirit is to be our teacher
, expanding, even like wewouldn't stay just within the
realm of the gospel of Maryeither that she would appoint us
to the way.
And the way is Christ, and theway is this, eternal, immortal,
and it's an invitation back toour true selves, back to love
(26:28):
that is unconditional, back tothe source that Jesus showed us
in God, back to the way thatJesus said.
God is like a woman who iscoming and looking for
everything that is lost, somepieces that have been lost.
Maybe God is like the woman whofound the lost gospel of Mary.
(26:48):
He dug it out of thefloorboards or wherever it was
found, and here it is returningthat.
And then he throws a greatparty with the neighbors and
said, look, what was lost is nowfound.
And so maybe we're invited tothat party to look what is lost
and now say it's been found.
But there's so much hope in thefact that things that are
(27:09):
buried will be brought to life,things that are lost can be
found, things that weren't heardbefore can now be heard with
joy and with gladness, and thereis a way to practice love that
we haven't been shown, and nowwe get to see it and choose.
Shelly Shepherd (27:31):
Yes, and I would add to this expansive
conversation that we've beengiven not just mystery and
mystical our entire lives, orwhere we started this beautiful
conversation, in the cosmos,like that's always been Mystery
is there, mystical is there,magical is there.
(27:55):
But I believe that we now havea portal into holy imagination
that doesn't have to becontrived just within our holy
imagination, that we actuallyhave a gospel that says to us I
(28:18):
am love and I've always beenlove and I am the good and I
have always been the good, andthat this gospel of Mary is
about teaching us that thisgoodness is within us.
And to me, if you want to wrapall that up and include not just
the gospels but every biblicaltext that you can find, so be it
(28:44):
.
But we are on a, I am on a.
I should say I shouldn't speakfor you.
I am on a path of expansivelove that I don't think I've
tasted before.
Heather Drake (28:56):
I want to read to us from Sacred Love All true
love is unconditional.
How you feel about others neednot get in the way of blessing
yourself and the world withunconditional love.
Love doesn't care whether youfeel someone is worthy of your
love.
It is not your love.
Love is a wild thing and free.
(29:17):
It just wants to run throughyou unobstructed.
It wants to flood your vesseland then flood the world.
When you get out of the way,love comes through you and soaks
your soul and your sorrows.
It does the same then to theworld that touches you.
Touch you first withunconditional love.
(29:40):
Unconditional love is notunconditional like Liking, has
nothing to do with loving.
Liking is a fickle approach, aretreat, an aversion, attraction
.
Love does not care aboutanything but love.
If you spread enough love,soaked light wherever you go,
eventually you begin to run intomore and more love, radiant and
(30:02):
growing wildly.
This is the bounty you reap.
The most essential oil of all islove, sacred ointment for
suffering, a salve for everysoul, sweet incense for all time
.
Love is in the midst and mistof you.
It pools in your pores, poursfrom your eyes, courses your
(30:25):
blood rivers, shivers you in thecold, lifts you in sorrow.
You do not have to wait forlove to arrive tomorrow.
Love is with you.
Love will never stop etchingits divine script into the
ground of your fertile heart.
Surrender everything you are tothis clandestine composer.
(30:46):
You were never meant to be drynotes on a page.
You are music, a living thing.
When you learn that you canhave and give all the love you
ever wanted.
Without a relationship, you arefree.
You can be broken, perforated,punctured and still absolutely
(31:07):
gush with love.
You can be on a wild spendingspree of soulful wandering and
you can be love's fountain.
Today is for loving, yesterdaytoo, same for tomorrow.
Resist and suffer, surrenderand be free.
Love is the most necessaryhuman endeavor.
Your entire nature is love.
(31:28):
All else is tangent and aimlessdrift.
There is no end to thebeginning of love.
Open to its gift and it willopen for you endlessly.
If you want to be kissed byeternal sunlight, call yourself
by your truest name love, andthen live up to your name.
That's from Jaya John, a SacredBook of Love.
(31:51):
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Shelly Shepherd (00:18):
Hey, Heather Drake, welcome to the
Expansionist Podcast.
So excited to have you here sowe can talk more about the
Gospel of.
Heather Drake (00:25):
Mary, welcome, I feel welcomed and I am thrilled
to be able to talk with youabout the Gospel of Mary and our
pursuit or our intentionfocused attention to be able to
say how do we engage with theSpirit, in what the Spirit is
doing in us and in the worldaround us and in the galaxy at
(00:48):
large.
Shelly Shepherd (00:50):
I love that cosmic um vibration that you
have always expanding us outinto the galaxies.
Heather Drake (00:59):
Thank you for that.
You can blame the James Webbtelescope for that no, you can't
Stars from the time that I waslittle.
But that idea that the scandalof the particular, that we in
the galaxy, that is so big inthe cosmos, that is so vast,
that we live on this planet,that we have this awareness that
(01:21):
this is the time that we havebeen gifted, that we're in this
location, that spirit had workedit out so that you and I could
have a meeting together and havea friendship together.
I mean all of those things thathad to line up so that we can
be here right now.
I savor that as an invitationinto the divine.
(01:41):
But, yes, and then remembering,it's not just this minuscule
version right now, it's whathappens to the whole world,
because we join with the cloudof unknowing.
We join with everyone who hasgone before, everyone who will
come after us, with the galaxiesthat are singing, with the
(02:03):
trees and the animals that arealso declaring that love is real
.
I'm excited to be a part ofthat.
So, yes, I do involve thegalaxies, because I think this
is way bigger than we evenimagined.
Shelly Shepherd (02:16):
And such expansive an invitation as we
dive into the gospel of Mary.
If we look at it from thatcosmos platform that you just
built in, about what a minute orless for us.
How can we not be amazed atwhat we are holding in our hands
(02:43):
in this gospel?
Heather Drake (02:43):
Well, I think that one of the first things
that everyone needs to come backto, amazed at what we are
holding in our hands in thisgospel.
Well, I think that one of thefirst things that everyone needs
to come back to and this is notan idea that is started with me
is that awe is so important todrawing us into the divine
Wonder, is such an essentialpart of us, reigniting our
humanity and our place in allthings that God has created and
(03:08):
is creating.
And so, when I look at thebeauty of the invitation of the
gospel of Mary and again, justthe incredible way that the
gospel has come to us in thiscentury, and to listen to her
invitation to return to the good, listen to her perspective,
(03:29):
listen to her witness to us ofJesus and the words of Jesus
that came to give us life, andlife to the fullest, Wow, this
is going to be fun.
Shelly Shepherd (03:42):
Thank you for opening this up to share with
others and to have thisconversation.
We're going to jump into theGospel of Mary.
Mary 6, 1, verses.
Chapter 6, verses 1 and 2 ofthe Gospel of Mary Sister, we
know the Savior, okay.
So Peter says to Mary in hergospel Sister, we know the
(04:06):
Savior.
Okay.
So Peter says to Mary in hergospel Sister, we know the
Savior loved you more than allthe other women.
That's Mary 6.1.
Because of this, peter thenasks Mary, tell us the words of
the Savior that you remember,the things which you know that
we don't because we haven'theard them.
That's Mary 6.2.
(04:30):
So I wondered today if we couldlook at these two passages,
these two verses in the Gospelof Mary, and just unpack them.
What do they mean to us?
What you know?
What does it mean?
That the Savior loved MaryMagdalene more than all other
(04:53):
women?
Heather Drake (04:54):
What does that mean to you?
One of the first things it doesto me is excite me to be able
to say I want to hear what shehas to say then, to be able to
say I want to hear what she hasto say then because I want to
know, yeah, the beautiful,intimate things that Jesus
shared with her, or even herfocused attention on his words,
(05:16):
on him, on the truth that he wasliving and breathing and being.
And Mary was there, payingattention, and her love brought
her to places that perhaps thepeople around, who didn't
recognize this particular time,this particular moment, how holy
it was, how sacred it was.
I have a suspicion, and it isonly a suspicion, but to me it
(05:41):
is very it's exciting to thinkabout that, but to me it is very
it's exciting to think aboutthat.
One of the things that Mary didwas recognize a moment, and the
reason that I have an idea thatshe could do that is that the
anointing stories that the othergospels tell of her she was
aware of a moment and then heldit holy and sacred and said this
(06:04):
needs oil, this needsremembrance, this needs spirit
on it, and I think that thatkind of thing, even when Peter
is saying to her teach us thingsthat you heard, that we didn't
hear.
And I don't mean that in any way, that you know that perhaps
Jesus was saying something toher that he wasn't saying to
(06:27):
anyone else, but it says to meof her attention paid, she heard
things because she waslistening.
She heard things because shepostured herself in such a way
that everything that he spokeshe saw as valuable.
Everything that she spoke, hespoke, she recognized the holy
on, and so that's very inspiringto me, that the whispers, that
(06:52):
the intentions were not lostjust because the boys were busy
fishing or whatever it was thatthey were doing, but that when
Jesus was speaking and talkingand being that, there was a
woman there who was payingattention and marking it holy
and bringing her focused, holyattention to it, and maybe she
(07:15):
just had a better memory thanthe boys did.
I don't know, but there werethings that Jesus was saying and
the boys were like oh, tell us,tell us those things because
you were paying attention.
Shelly Shepherd (07:25):
I like the paying attention piece.
I'm not going to disagree withthat, and I would add that you
know the passage doesn't saythat he only loved one woman.
Mary.
It's like he loved her morethan all the other women.
Right?
That's what it said, yes,meaning he loved the other women
(07:51):
.
There were other women thatministered to him.
I'm sure there's other womenthat may have anointed him, that
broke bread with him, that seta table with him, that walked to
the beach with him.
I'm sure there were others.
It wasn't just Mary Magdalene,but there was this singular
focus that Mary Magdalene hadand maybe it was the attention,
maybe it was the focusedattention that caused him to see
(08:14):
and communicate to herdifferently.
You and I have read and read andreread these seven powers that
Mary has been.
That's noted in a differentchapter in Mary's gospel and
maybe we'll get to those powerson a different podcast, but it's
possible in my you know justfrom where I'm sitting that
(08:38):
maybe the reason that he lovedher more is that she had already
tuned a frequency, she hadalready lined up a resonance,
there was something that hecommunicated that when she
received it, wow, it waseverlasting, it never left, it
(08:59):
didn't disappear.
It's also interesting that theGospels didn't say that the
women had a problem with the waythat Jesus loved Mary.
It was the men that had aproblem with the way that Jesus
loved Mary.
But I love that, that focusedintention, that singular form of
(09:19):
communication that they musthave had Just a beautiful,
beautiful expansion.
And we get it right here inMary 6.1.
Heather Drake (09:30):
When I read this text, it re-enchants the other
texts to me.
It reminds me that the witness,that the four gospels that we
have readily available to us,that we've used for generations
to tell the story of Jesus, thatI love this new lens that we
(09:52):
get to put on and we get to seeit through this vantage point of
Mary and part of her teachingsthat she received from Jesus.
One of the things that is areally important anchor to me as
we expand our understanding, aswe expand our practices, as we
expand love between us, betweenthe world, between every living
(10:16):
thing, is this idea that love isthe way Love has always been
the way.
God is love, and so when Iallow the anchor of love to
place me firmly in the source ofGod, I feel so much confidence
that this imagination that wecan have allows us to see with
(10:40):
the eye of the heart, allows usto see past a written, specific,
literal version, but to be ableto see and imagine what it is
like to be in the presence oflove even now, what it would be
like to prepare a table for ourenemies, what would it be like
to prepare ourselves for thelove of neighbor and to honor
(11:05):
the love that is in us already.
These texts and the other onesfrom the Gospel of Mary and from
the Gospel of Thomas and theGospel of Philip, those lenses
that are new to me certainlythey're not new to everyone, but
they're newish to me.
I've not been handling them for50 years like we have other
(11:26):
texts excited for what can bebirthed in me after hearing this
witness, after listening to thevoice of Spirit, after soaking
in the text and in thegraciousness and asking the Holy
Spirit among us to bringrevelation, open our eyes.
Let us see Jesus the way thatJesus wants to be seen.
(11:47):
Let us dance with Spirit, letus follow the Holy Spirit into
radical love that provideshospitality for everyone who
desires to be in God.
Shelly Shepherd (11:58):
Yes and Heather , I am reminded that these texts
the gospel of Mary, Thomas,Philip, some of the other ones
that didn't make it into eventhe apocryphal books at the time
(12:18):
were actually, some of them,written before the Gospels or
about the same time as theGospels, as we're learning, were
written, were written.
And so what that does for myspirit and for my understanding
is it reminds me that this lovethat Christ had for Mary had not
(12:44):
one ounce to do with anythingthat was written in the four
gospels.
And so I take that and jump offof the diving board into the
deepest end of my being and Icarry this with me because, you
know, to me this is just a huge,a huge shift.
(13:05):
And I'm not saying throw outthe gospels of Matthew, Mark,
Luke or John.
We have been born and bred onthose, we know them in many ways
like the back of our hand, andyet I am reminded that the love
that he demonstrated towards herand for her had nothing to do
(13:28):
with any of those stories thingto do with any of those stories.
Heather Drake (13:36):
There's a saying that says familiarity breeds
contempt, and I think sometimeswe are contemptuous when we
consider the works or thewitness or the testimony that we
have heard for our whole livesand maybe the way that we've
been hearing those things.
We can also get to a placewhere we're like, well, I don't
see how that works or I don'tsee how that matters.
And I love that the gospel ofMary invites us to look again
(13:59):
with fresh eyes, perhaps to lookagain and to say what is the
teaching of Jesus?
And I would like to say, beforeany of us panic and though
maybe no one has panicked at all, or maybe you're clutching your
pearls going what are theytalking about?
How can there be more?
That many testimonies in thegospel tell us this that the
(14:24):
world couldn't hold everywritten account of what Jesus
did or said, if that waspossible.
So we do have a very narrowslice of what it was, what all
of the things that Jesus did,all of the things that Jesus
said, and so we can trust theHoly Spirit to bring us
(14:46):
revelation and we can judge that, or we can trust that because
if it brings us back to love ifit brings us back to our true
selves, our souls that have beennamed by God as very good.
If it brings us back to that,we can have confidence.
(15:08):
And so I don't have tonecessarily have confidence that
I've heard this story since Iwas a little girl.
In fact, I'm really glad thatI'm hearing it now.
I mean, maybe it would havebeen great to hear it as a young
person, but where I'm hearingit now is that there is more,
and it is an invitation into anascended way to live.
(15:30):
It's an invitation into ahigher thought.
It's an invitation into apractice that makes love the way
that we do everything.
Shelly Shepherd (15:39):
Yeah, I love that thought and I also wish
that I had had it when I wasyoung.
At the same time, I am nearly100% sure that if I had this
understanding, that patriarchywouldn't have maybe taken the
(16:02):
hold that it has taken in thelives of many women and many
individuals at this juncture inour histories.
You know, I mean, that's what Iwonder, and so wishing that it
had been more prevalent inconversations in theological
(16:24):
circles or in Sunday schoolclasses, or you know, from those
preaching.
But again, at the same time, ifit's, if it's male preachers,
um, you know, there you havethat piece.
So here we are.
Here we are with, with Mary,6-1, and um, the Savior loved
(16:47):
her more than all other women,so we'll let that one stand.
Heather Drake (16:52):
We want to pause and take a moment and let you
know how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
Online community.
Visit our website atexpansionistheologycom.
(17:12):
Let's jump to 6-2.
Shelly Shepherd (17:14):
I want to read it again Because of this.
Peter then asked Mary, tell usthe words of the Savior that you
remember, the things which youknow that we don't because we
haven't heard them.
Mary 6-2.
We're going to speculate hereas to why, heather, that Jesus
did not share these things withthe boys.
Heather Drake (17:40):
I'll let you speculate first and then I will.
Well, actually, I want tohesitate from speculation,
because I will tell you that,instead of speculation or
judgment, I will tell you onlyfrom my own experience there is
a presence that a woman can holdfor you and an intention that I
(18:00):
have not found practiced in alot of the sons that I have, the
brothers that I have, thefathers that I have, the husband
that I have.
There is a singularity that Ibelieve that women can hold, and
I'm assuming this is thesingularity that Jesus was
(18:22):
honored to have been witnessedby Interesting answer, my friend
.
Shelly Shepherd (18:26):
Well, the first thing I see here in this
particular verse is that Peterasks Mary so we know some things
about Peter already throughyears of being taught about his
temperament.
Tell us the words of the Saviorthat you remember, the things
which you know that we don'tbecause we haven't heard them.
(18:48):
Not understanding the tone inwhich he is asking Mary this
question, if we read on in someof the rest of her gospel, he
gets pretty aggressive with herin his questioning, in so much
(19:09):
that Levi steps in and asks himto back down.
You know why are youdistrusting her?
She's answering Jesus loved her, obviously, and told her these
things, and so, whether it'sspeculation or accuracy, there
(19:29):
was this forwardness in Peter ofwanting to know why Jesus did
not give him this informationand only shared it with a woman.
I think there was a problemright for him.
And we read later in the Gospelof Mary where she just says
(19:52):
basically she says you know,peter just has an issue with
women in general, right Like hejust doesn't like the human race
of women, and so maybe inchapter six he was trying to be
a little bit inquisitive.
Maybe in chapter six he wastrying to be a little bit
(20:19):
inquisitive, maybe usingcuriosity to get his question
answered.
And yet I have to myself justthink what intense pressure she
must have felt even by thatquestion.
Why would Jesus tell you andnot us?
Maybe because she was listening.
Heather Drake (20:32):
Why would Jesus tell you and not us?
Maybe because she was listening.
Maybe Jesus did not have andthese are maybes but maybe Jesus
did not have the energy tofight for someone's attention
and maybe Mary was alreadyattentive to the words.
(21:01):
Maybe she saw him Matthew, mark,luke and John and that if you
also read the gospel of Mary andPhilip and Thomas, you will see
a witness of the fact that Marysaw Jesus and Jesus saw Mary,
that there was a oneness betweenthem, and I think that that's
an invitation for all of us, forall of us, that we could also
have a relationship where Jesuscommunes with us.
(21:23):
I mean, jesus even prayed forthis for us in John's gospel
gives us an invitation to listeninto that prayer where he says
Father, make them one, the sameas you and I are one.
And so you know what would itlook like for us to acknowledge
our own oneness with God and theinvitation of Jesus to be seen
by God, to open ourselves up.
And maybe she trusted him,maybe she was vulnerable, maybe
(21:47):
she made herself available,maybe she was listening.
I don't know those things, butall of those things are hopeful
thoughts to me into how I canopen myself more to the Spirit
of God, to the love of Christ,to an empowerment to see things
with more hope than the worldsees them.
Shelly Shepherd (22:09):
I think that is the hope of this text in the
Gospel of Mary Heather is thatif we're given this information
out of her gospel, then it hasto be for us.
As women, we have to be movedby the fact that he told her
some things that he did not tellanyone else, male or female.
Heather Drake (22:32):
And Shelley, I suspect he didn't just tell Mary
things, the Mary Magdalene Imean.
I suspect he told his motherMary things that maybe he hadn't
told anyone else.
And I suspect you know sisters,aunts, you know the mother of
James.
That is often you know.
So there's women here who arerecognizing the bread of life,
(22:54):
who are recognizing thesacredness, who are recognizing
the specialness, who arerecognizing the divine, and in
that place of recognition theyhold the reverence that allows
this truth to be expanded tothem.
Shelly Shepherd (23:12):
I'm sitting with that for a minute because,
of course, yes and amen, but wewere not told that, we were not
taught that necessarily.
Well, maybe, maybe throughmother Mary or Jesus
communicating with miracles orthings that she wanted
(23:34):
specifically to um, to say tohim, but we didn't even get all,
all of mother Mary's stories.
So that's a whole notherpodcast, maybe.
But my point is, of course hetold other women, of course
other women touched him orlistens to him, or uh.
(23:56):
But that's the beauty of thisgospel, Heather, is that we are
given now documents that say tous research that says to us God
wants to speak through you or toyou.
Take this opportunity andattune and align yourself so
(24:18):
that spirit, so that wisdom, sothat love can be moved between
you and the divine.
I think that's also theinvitation of the gospel of Mary
, is that?
Heather Drake (24:34):
wow.
And one of the things that Ithink that it also invites us to
do, though, is move beyond theliteral or beyond the idea of
now.
I have to have proof that Iwould give up or surrender
certainty and move into therealm of spirit and of love, and
move into the realm ofembracing the mystery, but
(24:58):
absolutely coming to grips withthe fact that the four gospels,
as we know them, do not give usthe complete picture that give
us an entry point, but thatwe're invited not to stay in the
entrance but to enter intocompletely.
Allow the spirit to bring usrevelation, to bring us truth,
(25:22):
to bring us grace.
When Jesus says it's better foryou if I leave, I'm going to
send you a paraclete, I'm goingto send you a helper, I'm going
to send you my spirit, and youwon't need a teacher.
You'll be full of the spirit,and the spirit will lead you,
and this invitation, I believe,from the gospel of Mary is an
(25:43):
invitation into life, in thespirit, as we have never
experienced it or never seen it,and these practices, again,
don't lead us into now.
Mary is our teacher, but Maryshowed us where the door is, and
now we can enter.
That same way, we honor this.
Why isn't Mary our teacher?
Well, let me rephrase that Marycan be our teacher, but I
(26:06):
believe that, even beyond Mary,that spirit is to be our teacher
, expanding, even like wewouldn't stay just within the
realm of the gospel of Maryeither that she would appoint us
to the way.
And the way is Christ, and theway is this, eternal, immortal,
and it's an invitation back toour true selves, back to love
(26:28):
that is unconditional, back tothe source that Jesus showed us
in God, back to the way thatJesus said.
God is like a woman who iscoming and looking for
everything that is lost, somepieces that have been lost.
Maybe God is like the woman whofound the lost gospel of Mary.
(26:48):
He dug it out of thefloorboards or wherever it was
found, and here it is returningthat.
And then he throws a greatparty with the neighbors and
said, look, what was lost is nowfound.
And so maybe we're invited tothat party to look what is lost
and now say it's been found.
But there's so much hope in thefact that things that are
(27:09):
buried will be brought to life,things that are lost can be
found, things that weren't heardbefore can now be heard with
joy and with gladness, and thereis a way to practice love that
we haven't been shown, and nowwe get to see it and choose.
Shelly Shepherd (27:31):
Yes, and I would add to this expansive
conversation that we've beengiven not just mystery and
mystical our entire lives, orwhere we started this beautiful
conversation, in the cosmos,like that's always been Mystery
is there, mystical is there,magical is there.
(27:55):
But I believe that we now havea portal into holy imagination
that doesn't have to becontrived just within our holy
imagination, that we actuallyhave a gospel that says to us I
(28:18):
am love and I've always beenlove and I am the good and I
have always been the good, andthat this gospel of Mary is
about teaching us that thisgoodness is within us.
And to me, if you want to wrapall that up and include not just
the gospels but every biblicaltext that you can find, so be it
(28:44):
.
But we are on a, I am on a.
I should say I shouldn't speakfor you.
I am on a path of expansivelove that I don't think I've
tasted before.
Heather Drake (28:56):
I want to read to us from Sacred Love All true
love is unconditional.
How you feel about others neednot get in the way of blessing
yourself and the world withunconditional love.
Love doesn't care whether youfeel someone is worthy of your
love.
It is not your love.
Love is a wild thing and free.
(29:17):
It just wants to run throughyou unobstructed.
It wants to flood your vesseland then flood the world.
When you get out of the way,love comes through you and soaks
your soul and your sorrows.
It does the same then to theworld that touches you.
Touch you first withunconditional love.
(29:40):
Unconditional love is notunconditional like Liking, has
nothing to do with loving.
Liking is a fickle approach, aretreat, an aversion, attraction
.
Love does not care aboutanything but love.
If you spread enough love,soaked light wherever you go,
eventually you begin to run intomore and more love, radiant and
(30:02):
growing wildly.
This is the bounty you reap.
The most essential oil of all islove, sacred ointment for
suffering, a salve for everysoul, sweet incense for all time
.
Love is in the midst and mistof you.
It pools in your pores, poursfrom your eyes, courses your
(30:25):
blood rivers, shivers you in thecold, lifts you in sorrow.
You do not have to wait forlove to arrive tomorrow.
Love is with you.
Love will never stop etchingits divine script into the
ground of your fertile heart.
Surrender everything you are tothis clandestine composer.
(30:46):
You were never meant to be drynotes on a page.
You are music, a living thing.
When you learn that you canhave and give all the love you
ever wanted.
Without a relationship, you arefree.
You can be broken, perforated,punctured and still absolutely
(31:07):
gush with love.
You can be on a wild spendingspree of soulful wandering and
you can be love's fountain.
Today is for loving, yesterdaytoo, same for tomorrow.
Resist and suffer, surrenderand be free.
Love is the most necessaryhuman endeavor.
Your entire nature is love.
(31:28):
All else is tangent and aimlessdrift.
There is no end to thebeginning of love.
Open to its gift and it willopen for you endlessly.
If you want to be kissed byeternal sunlight, call yourself
by your truest name love, andthen live up to your name.
That's from Jaya John, a SacredBook of Love.
(31:51):
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.