August 31, 2024 • 40 mins
What if the biblical stories we've known all our lives missed crucial voices—particularly those of women? Join us as we sit down with Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew to uncover the forgotten female leaders of the Bible and discover how reinterpreting these stories can empower the next generation of women in leadership. Heather Drake also weighs in on Jesus' revolutionary inclusivity, which not only created spaces for women but celebrated their inherent strength. This conversation reflects the significance of inclusive and compassionate storytelling to bridge gaps and build unity.
We also delve into the evolving landscape of social and political activism for women and people of color. From the enduring struggle for pay equity to the contradictions of leaders who preach abundance while restricting opportunities, our discussion highlights the need for creating paths that empower marginalized groups. Drawing parallels between the past and present, we hold up figures like Mary Magdalene as timeless symbols of resilience and advocate for building inclusive communities that foster genuine change.
In the final segments, we explore themes of generosity, love, and the sacred value of women. We emphasize the importance of recognizing our divine worth and the unique role women play in fostering love and hope. By broadening our perspectives through diverse voices and embracing cognitive dissonance, we challenge listeners to create spaces of genuine expression and to envision a more inclusive and hopeful future for the next generation. Join us in celebrating gratitude, love, and the boundless potential of every individual's story.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heather Drake (00:02):
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Shelly Shepherd (00:18):
Good afternoon my friends Heather Drake and
Froswa Booker-Drew.
It's so good to have the two ofyou here in this space today.
Welcome to the ExpansionistPodcast.
Glad to be here, thank you.
Heather Drake (00:29):
Shelley, I'm excited about what our
conversation is going to lead toand the expansion that our
imaginations and our hearts aregoing to be able to have based
on the conversation that we haveas women that we have as women.
Shelly Shepherd (00:45):
Yes, and Froswa and I go back several years and
it was just a delight to reachout to you in our friendship, in
this leadership journey thatyou and I have had and been on.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (00:57):
And maybe still we're still on and I
was gonna go.
Shelly Shepherd (01:00):
I'm not off, we still are on this space
together, yeah, but I wanna tointroduce the listeners to you
in this, this, this impressiveresume that you have, dr.
Dr Froswa, is you know that youare this person who just loves
building relationships withpeople?
(01:21):
You are this network weaver,you are a philanthropist, you
are a community developer andyou've built this diverse
network of individuals andorganizations around the world,
right?
Just unbelievable reach andjust the people that I've met as
a result of you.
I've just been so blessed bythe way that you share.
(01:42):
Isn't that like aphilanthropist heart, right?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (01:48):
Yes, yes .
Shelly Shepherd (01:49):
Just to keep sharing and giving and expanding
.
But Frasua has more than 25years of experience in
leadership development, training, nonprofit management,
education and social services.
She's the author of four books,an adjunct professor at Tulane
University, research affiliateat Antioch University and a
(02:12):
columnist for Texas Metro News.
You can learn more about her atdrfraswabookercom.
So, so excited to jump intothis conversation, this
expansion, this space with youtoday and hear what is on your
heart, what is in your hands,what have you been doing and how
(02:34):
is this women in leadershipspace impacting you and others?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (02:41):
You know , lately I've been working on
and we talked about this alittle bit.
I've been working on a bookthat you really were a lot of
the inspiration behind some ofthe topics in the book, but I've
been working on a book forwomen of color and leadership
and really thinking about itthrough a faith lens, because I
don't think we one see women inthe Bible as leaders.
(03:05):
I think we're often accustomedto people with these titles of
king and queen and even whenwe've seen those, quite often
like with Vashti and the Bibleas queen, they're demonized.
And so I really want to helpwomen see themselves in these
characters and learn more abouttheir journey and to see the
(03:29):
similarities and what are thelessons that they can learn from
these amazing women that youknow we hear preached about but
we don't really see the impactof their lives on us today.
And so it's been a journey inwriting this, but it's been a
gift because you started so muchof this.
(03:50):
One of the things I talk aboutin the book is the word easer
and talking about what does itmean if women really understood
what that word means, thatyou're a warrior and how, from
the beginning, that God saw youthat way.
That's what I want to impact onwomen when they read this is
that you are more than justbeing the help meat.
(04:11):
You have so much more.
There's nothing wrong withbeing complimentary, but there's
something that you have that'seven bigger, that I don't think
you recognize within, thatallows you to be complimentary,
that allows you to be thewarrior, and that's what I want
people to walk away with.
Shelly Shepherd (04:28):
Wow, you have a comment on that, heather, I'm
sure.
Heather Drake (04:38):
And then I'll jump in of connection and really
why Shelley and I decided let'srecord the conversations that
we have.
Is really these ideas that weare expanding?
And again, this really importantfacet for us is telling the
better story, or telling thestory with a slant, telling it
(04:58):
from another perspective, in noway mitigating or diminishing
that perspective, but sayingthere were other people in the
room, there were other peoplewho brought gifts.
And how do we find ourselves?
Because very often the storythat we've been told in churches
and I've grown up in the churchand am a pastor now but the
(05:19):
stories we've told are largelystories of the brothers, of the
men.
And so to be able to say that Ihave a place in the story that
God is continuing to tell and mydaughter has a place in the
story that God in the futurewill be telling or in the
present future is telling, andto be able to gift my sons with
(05:40):
the compassion as they hear andsee the value in the women that
are around them, and so I thinkthe work that we do is holy,
it's sacred, but it's absolutelyimportant because when things
are hard, we need to tell softer, more beautiful, more
grace-filled stories that canbuild bridges and unite us, even
(06:02):
in spaces where we don'tunderstand.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (06:04):
Heather, as you were talking, one of the
things that immediately came tomind is thinking about how
Christ created space for womento be a part of the story.
So when you think about thesisters and he's saying one is
doing the better thing Mary andMartha one is doing the better
thing because she's sitting atmy feet while I'm talking and
telling these stories and usingthese parables to help people
(06:27):
connect to the greater, and thathe's saying that the sister
who's being busy is missing outon the opportunity to be a part
of this story.
And so I think it's justfascinating, you know, as you're
putting this picture togetherfor us, I think it's fascinating
to think about how Jesuscreated those spaces too for the
(06:49):
story I love that you broughtthat story up, because I was
thinking about the other day andI was thinking we've heard it a
particular way.
Heather Drake (06:57):
The lens is Jesus is having this conversation and
he responds to Martha by sayingthat Mary is doing the better
thing.
But I wonder if that's notexactly the case.
I wonder if he was telling theboys that Mary is doing the
better thing Because, culturally, what would have been expected
is the women would have done thework and that the men would sit
(07:19):
at the feet of their rabbi.
So here's Mary, front row,sitting at the feet of the rabbi
, and Jesus says no, this is thething.
And then makes this declarationthis will never be taken from
her.
Yes yes, makes this declaration.
This will never be taken fromher.
Yes, yes.
And so this beautiful you knowthis again, this invitation of
yes, I'm telling the story thatwomen are included, jesus
(07:39):
absolutely did.
But to be able to say what ifwe believe, or what if we take a
moment to think about the factthat every man in that room
needed to hear Jesus qualifythis as this is the higher thing
, this is the better thing, thather role is not just to serve
the other men here.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (07:56):
Her role is to learn and to be able to
be part of the exchange, Agreed,Agreed, I think, to your point.
I think it's a both, and Ithink that there are lessons for
both groups in that and thatChrist is giving by saying that
you're right, it's theinvitation.
And so how are we in our dailywalk, as we're talking about
(08:19):
stories and bringing peopleclose, creating space for the
invitation for people to be ableto partake in listening to
diverse stories?
Because when you all weretalking, I was thinking about
all of these stories in theBible.
You may.
You know, when you all weretalking, I was thinking about
all of these stories in theBible.
We don't often think about theother people that are there just
in.
You know, looking at the Mark,Luke, John, you know the first
(08:43):
four books of the New Testament,how they were talking about the
same experiences but gave avery different perspective on
those experiences.
How is it that we create spaceto be able to give different
perspectives of thoseexperiences?
I don't know if we do that wellin the church of allowing
people to give their testimonyof those experiences that we're
(09:04):
all a part of, so that we cancreate this better picture and a
better narrative.
Heather Drake (09:09):
Yeah, and I just want to say, as a person who
still believes in the power of alocal congregation, that if you
have been silenced by thechurch or if no one has listened
to you, I repent on behalf ofthat and keep looking, keep
talking, keep speaking till youare heard.
Do not give up just becausesomeone told you to be quiet.
(09:31):
In fact, speak louder, if youneed to and move.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (09:35):
I don't think women need to continue to
be in abusive spaces.
Agreed, I think as a society wetalk a lot about trauma that we
experience in the world, but Idon't think we really talk a lot
about the trauma that churchhas caused, especially to women,
and that there is a healingthat has to come for all.
(10:00):
Like you were saying, I'm sorry, in doing that, the church has
got to repent for a lot ofthings too that have been done
that have been harmful in thename of power and position.
That was not connected to whatGod said we should be doing, but
because the man's ego anddesire to rule have harmed a lot
(10:22):
of people.
Heather Drake (10:22):
Yeah, and I think that you know paying attention
and offering an apology is astart from the church, but I
think that's not enough.
I think the church needs tomake amends and needs to build
better bridges to a moreequitable space where we do what
Jesus offered us to do.
Pass this around All of you eatthis, drink this.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (10:45):
This is what it looks like to be a part
of this, yes, and I think Jesusalso did this thing.
That I often encourage peopleto do as well is who's missing.
I think Jesus went and lookedfor the least of these people
that everybody discarded andsaid you're not good enough to
be with us.
That Jesus said who's missing?
I'm going to get them, and Ithink we have a responsibility
(11:08):
to start asking who's missingfrom this story and how do we go
get them?
If I got to go at night and havea conversation with you for you
to understand that I care aboutyou, what is it that we have to
do?
Instead of thinking thateveryone has to come inside the
church, that Jesus went to wherepeople were and that has to
(11:30):
change, that we begin to see thechurch as being more than the
four walls that we have, butunderstanding that there are
people outside of that placethat need us, and he went to
them and met them at their need.
I think, too, he demonstratesthat the physical need has to be
met.
I think so often we get socaught up in telling people
(11:53):
about you know you need to dothis, and this is what the word
says, and that's important, butif I'm hungry and I'm not just
hungry on Thanksgiving andChristmas.
But if I'm hungry then I needyou to be there for me and
support me.
I'm going to be able tounderstand the spiritual when my
stomach's not growling.
Shelly Shepherd (12:15):
That's so good.
You know one of the things thatI heard you say in the pre-show
, and correct me if this isinaccurate, but this work that's
coming forth in 2025 is focusedon women of color, or women of
color in leadership.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (12:36):
It's women of color in leadership.
But this is the thing, and Ipreface it leadership.
All of us are leaders, so it'sfor anyone.
I think we get so caught up onpositional power that we don't
recognize the first personyou're leading is you, so you're
all leaders, so it's foreverybody, right.
Shelly Shepherd (12:57):
Well, I asked that question to ask this one.
You know, when we're looking atthese pieces of who's missing
from the table, whose voice isnot here, and as you are in the
circles that you are in withwomen of color and people of
color, what are those storiesthat they're hearing or that
(13:20):
they've been told?
And then, how are those storiesdifferent stories that they're
telling their children tellingtheir children?
You know, are we getting to aplace where the conversation
that the three of us are havingright now, that we're at the
beginning Well, at least I feellike maybe you guys don't feel
(13:42):
this way, but we're at thebeginning of learning to tell a
better story, because we're notafraid to talk about the voices
that are missing.
We're not afraid to talk aboutthat.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (13:53):
I think that there is a sense of people
having more space to be vocal inways that did not exist in the
past.
I had to tell my daughter thisabout as you're looking at
history and she was kind ofgoing well, why weren't people
fighting?
I said they were, but it was avery different time.
(14:20):
There were barriers thatexisted and systems that were
even more restrictive in waysthat they still exist.
It's different, and so peoplehave more of an ability to speak
out.
That doesn't have the samelevel of consequence or the
consequences wouldn't be sooverwhelming.
They can be in a way thatdidn't exist in 1950 and 1960.
(14:44):
So I think people have alwayshad those challenges that exist
because of being different,whether it's being Black or
being a woman or you know whatother identity it may be.
That's not the mainstream andaccepted, but I think the
stories that I'm hearing frompeople are there's change but
(15:05):
there's not change.
So I think that in some areaswe're seeing advancement and
you're seeing opportunities, butyou're also seeing how those
opportunities are being takenand another narrative being
created around what their trueintent is, which is fueled with
fear and hate and misinformationa lot of those narratives and
(15:29):
they're fueled from a place oflack.
I marvel when I hear a lot ofthese people who are in
positions of power, who talkabout God but live in a way of
scarcity.
Because if God tells you thatI've got 10,000 cattle on all
these hills, then how is it thatGod is talking about?
(15:49):
I came and gave you a life tohave it abundantly and have it
more abundantly.
God is saying this, and yet youdon't want people to have the
same opportunities that you have.
You want to limit them becauseyou think you're going to lose
something.
What Bible are you reading?
Because I'm confused, becausethat's not what I get out of
(16:10):
that that there is plenty inGod's kingdom for all of us.
So I don't have to limit youfrom being the greatest version
of yourself, because in limitingyou also hurt me because I
don't get to benefit from yourbrilliance and your wisdom.
But if I allow you to havethese opportunities and access
and availability to be thegreatest version of you, oh my
(16:30):
goodness, what happens for meand the world around me and my
children?
But by creating these systemsand barriers that lock people
out?
So while you're holding me down, you're also holding you down
and I don't think people reallyunderstand that.
My mother always says if youdig a ditch for me, you need to
dig too, because you're going tohave to watch me stay in the
ditch in order to keep me there.
(16:52):
So you're not only hurtingyourself from getting out
because you think you're hurtingme, and so I think the story is
.
You know, right now I thinkpeople are feeling hopeful, but
I also think for a lot of womenyou're seeing, you know, a lot
of pay disparity, especially aswomen of color.
We know women, period, don'tmake the same amount as men.
(17:15):
But when you start looking atwomen of color, the paid
disparities another conversationI could have.
Well, you had that experienceyourself.
Can't really talk about it, butyes, and so you begin to start
seeing your value isn't valuedin the same way, although you're
(17:36):
doing the work, you got theeducation, got the experiences,
but the value isn't in the sameway.
And so I think for a lot ofwomen, what they're telling
their children is is that you bethe best.
Heather Drake (17:48):
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Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (18:08):
When I was growing up, it was you got
to be 10 times better.
You got to work hard, hard,hard and almost kill yourself
because it was the belief ofmaybe people will accept you if
you do all these things.
You know, and the term iscalled respectability politics,
where if I just dress a certainway and if I talk a certain way
and my hair is a certain way,that you're going to accept me
(18:29):
certain way that you're going toaccept me, what we're
discovering is that's notnecessarily true, that I can do
all the things that society saysI can do, and you still will
find fault.
So how do I figure out how tobe the greatest version of
myself and live in the totalityof who God has called me to be,
regardless of a world that saysyou got to do one, two, three,
four, five, knowing that you cando six and still may not get it
(18:51):
?
So I think the messaging isdifferent for people now than
trying to fit in is tellingtheir kids if there is not a
table for you to set it, gocreate your own table.
And if that means goingcreating, I told my daughter, I
said it's not even a table gobuild your building and then you
invite people into the building.
You don't do the exact samething that others have done.
(19:12):
You do something differentwhere you bring everybody into
the building and you make thisamazing organization so you
don't have to worry about notbeing at the table.
Bump, that Do something else.
Yeah, and I think that's thedifference.
Shelly Shepherd (19:25):
You know, as I'm listening as I'm listening
to you, you know we're here thisweek honoring Mary magdalene uh
, her feast day was monday the22nd and as I'm listening, uh,
to your story, I'm wondering howfar we, we are removed, uh,
(19:48):
from this story in in biblicaltimes.
Um, we were, we were at adinner table on Monday evening
and the stories that were sharedabout life experiences as women
, as women in leadership, aswomen in the church, as women in
the public eye, right eye,right, the stories as they
(20:19):
unfolded made me think that Iwas listening to Mary
Magdalene's story, you know,from first century, second
century, third century, you know, here we are in 2024.
And the stories sound the same.
Maybe we could talk a littlebit about that, heather.
Why are these?
Why are these struggles soprevalent?
(20:40):
We know patriarchy is at thehelm of that, we know that.
But if we're, if we're invitingpeople to be part of a better
story, to tell a better story,like you said, frazwa, build
your own building story why isthis still so, so prevalent and
(21:02):
so challenging in our time?
Heather, maybe take us downthat road as we, as we think
about you, know how we honorwhat we have been called to do
or what we've been asked to door what we've been gifted to do.
And yet somebody's telling us,depending on, like you said,
(21:23):
fraswa, the color of our skin,the look of our hair, what side
of the tracks we live on,somebody is still telling us oh,
you can't do that, you can'tsit at that table with Jesus
because you're a woman.
Heather Drake (21:39):
I think ultimately it comes back to
something that Francois wasmentioning earlier.
There is an insidious lie thatwe have been fed as humanity
that there is scarcity insteadof abundance and we have been
afraid of each other and evenother women.
I mean, I think to myself thatif just between the women I mean
(22:03):
the boys can sit out of thisone, if between the women we
would support each other, ifbetween the women we would give
up capitalist greed, if betweenthe women we would say I don't
need all of this.
Where is the equity in this?
And whatever platform, whateverplace we have, whatever gift we
have, whatever resource, if welook around and even if we just
feed each other, even if we justtake care of our families, our
(22:27):
babies, if just the women wouldget in line and be able to say,
okay, this has gone this far, nomore.
No more, we are not excludingeach other, I think that could
change the world.
I think if just women could saywe'll handle it from here.
Thank you, brothers, we havegot this.
And not to exclude them, I havesons, I have a husband, I have
a father.
(22:53):
I don't want to excuse them, butthis hierarchy and this
patriarchy and theseprincipalities that are talked
about, that govern in unseenplaces, but they give us this
idea that there is not enoughfor us when the truth is, god is
abundance, god is love andthere is enough love for
everyone there.
But when we start being thehands and feet of Christ and
going this is what I have, howdo I share it?
(23:15):
And I think I would really loveto to uh, volley this to you,
fazwa, and have it.
Have you respond to it.
But I believe that when youstay in love and you return to
the love that is the source ofGod, it produces in you a
byproduct of generosity thatwhen you experience this I have
been given this then I can giveit away.
(23:35):
I mean, I think of the story wementioned earlier of the little
boy who gives his lunch away,and we've retold the story to
talk about the mom who packed alunch and who packed enough for
her boy to be generous and saygive it away.
When Jesus shows up, give itaway.
I mean he wasn't worried thathis mom was going to be mad at
him when he came home and hewould get.
You know what I mean.
Like there's a generosity inthis woman already in this story
(23:58):
.
And so he's free to give itaway, because he knows when he
goes home, if he'd given it away, his mom's going to make him
something else.
And so this story of abundance,if we believe it and if we act
in it, can lead us to a morepracticed and holistic
generosity, not where I amgenerous only if I believe
you're worthy or if I believeyou deserve this, but just an
(24:22):
outflow of generosity.
So to you with that, so good.
Shelly Shepherd (24:27):
So good.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (24:41):
But you know I was telling someone this
earlier about this is so good,so good, our source.
So we're disconnected.
I remember in class Mondaynight we were talking about the
cross, how the cross reaches upto man, but I mean reaches up to
God, but out to man.
And one of the things that justblew me away is the cross.
The part of the cross that goesup and down can stand by itself
(25:05):
.
It doesn't need us to be therewith the relationship piece.
But check this out If I takethe up and down part away, this
can't stand on its own.
It's going to fall.
Our relationships are contingentand our generosity is
contingent upon the source thatit's flowing out of, a source
(25:26):
Not that money is a bad thing.
I love it, it's great.
It can't be your idol and whatwe've done is we've idolized the
creations but not the creator.
And so when that disconnecthappens, I can't be generous
because the source that I'mcoming out of is limited.
When I connect to God, that'san unlimited source.
(25:46):
I will always have what I need,because that is who I am
putting first.
But a lot of us are.
We go to church and we talkabout these things, but our real
connection is not to God.
We put money and things abovethat, and so when you do that,
you have nothing to operate outof when those things are gone.
But if you got God, thepossibilities are endless.
(26:08):
That's what's missing and whypeople aren't generous.
Their source is not the sourcethey want us to believe it is.
Heather Drake (26:15):
I often wonder, too, if there is a beginning
story that needs to be told orretold, or told louder or
experimented on, is that you areloved by God.
You're very you, at the verysource.
You are loved, you are beloved.
There is nothing that you willdo to earn God's love, and so
you can always return to yourfather, to the eternal parent,
(26:37):
to your home.
There's nothing that canseparate you from that.
So, recognizing and claimingour own belovedness and saying I
am loved not because of whatI've done, not because of whose
I am, other than the fact that Ibear the image of God, I am
loved not because of what I'vedone, not because of who I am,
other than the fact that I bearthe image of God.
I am invited into this eternalconversation.
But owning belovedness, I think,is maybe not something that's
(27:01):
been prioritized in the church,particularly for women.
You're not loved when you havea husband.
You're not loved when you havethis thing or you've earned this
hierarchical achievement inChristendom.
You have a family, somehow.
That's a place of hierarchy inwomen in the church.
But to be able to say just youas you are, bear a light and an
(27:24):
image of Christ, and there'snothing that will separate you
from the love of God.
I think that often people havetold us there are things that
will separate the storiesthey've told us is we have a
very angry father who is keepingtrack of all our infractions,
you know, and who wants to gohome when they're going to be
criticized.
But what if we understood thatthe table was open, that this is
(27:45):
a feast that we've been invitedto and that love always calls
us home?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (27:54):
It's two things.
And you're saying that, heather, that that I think about.
A lot of us see our earthlyparents as the representation of
who God is, and so if you'vehad such a warped relationship
with your earthly parents,you're going to look at God as
an ass whipper, I mean causeyou're going to be like, oh, I
always got in trouble, so he'swaiting on me.
And I remember a pastor told meyears ago he said you have an
Old Testament view of God.
And I was like, yeah, becauseanything bad that happened.
(28:16):
I went, oh my God, god is madat me.
And it wasn't until I got freefrom that way of thinking to
understand that how do I have achild that I say I love and I
want to watch you fall and failand I get some kind of sadistic
joy out of that?
That?
That, how, how does that work?
If I don't do that as a parent,how does God, who is our, our
(28:39):
father and ultimate father, howdo I do that and look at you and
go, yeah, I love, when you keephurting yourself, I, I don't
understand how we have warpedthis.
But again, it goes back tocontrol Because, as a woman, if
I can make you think that youdon't fit.
(29:00):
You're different, you arecreated to a secondary status.
If I can make you think that,then you don't see how you fit
into this picture anyway,because I've made you to believe
that this picture wasn't evendesigned and created for you.
It was for men to be a part ofthis picture.
Well, that's problematic and weknow that.
(29:20):
We see the results of whatthat's doing, and so it's to
your point.
When you all started is youknow, and it goes back to this
quote, we need to be mindful ofwho's telling the story and the
benefit that they have intelling the story, because I can
promise you, the hunter isgoing to have a very different
story than the deer and the deeris going to have a very
(29:41):
different story than the hunter.
And both of those stories arevery valid.
Hopefully they're truthful, arevery valid, hopefully they're
truthful.
Let's put it like that, becausesometimes a hunter may
embellish their story just tomake themselves look bigger and
better and have control.
But I'll leave that alone.
Shelly Shepherd (29:58):
Well, yeah, there's that, and we often have
these conversations Heather andI are having these conversations
at table and in other placeswhere the female side of the
story has totally either beenleft out, for the most part,
ripped out or burned, you know,extinguished, so that we can't
even get our hands on the realstory.
(30:20):
Right, the pieces that we couldactually read in Scripture and
benefit from, right, like thosehave been, you know, taken away
or, you know, just not included.
They're not included, andthat's why this desire and focus
around seeing Mary Magdalene asthe apostle to the apostles,
(30:42):
right, this is why this story isa better story than even the
story of Adam and Eve, right,like that story got all jiggered
up somehow, I don't know, likeit's all messed up, and it also
touches on what Heather remindedus of, you know, the story of
lack, yeah, the curse ratherthan the blessing the beloved
(31:06):
right, like somehow that got allsideways, you know, in how it
was rendered into scripture.
And so for the women that youare writing for right, and for
the women who we are trying toreach as well, it's like there
(31:31):
is a place and a time for us tobegin again, which is this
present moment, which is thispresent time to see our value
and our worth and this sacreddivine connection that God has
(31:52):
given us all and to see thevalue and worth of one another.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (31:55):
It's important for me to know my
value, but I have to know, ifwe're creating the image of God,
that when I am looking at you,I am looking at a creation that
God felt valuable enough to behere, and so I can't just look
at you from a space ofcompetition and see the scarcity
.
I have to see that when we cometogether with the gifts and
(32:18):
talents that God has given eachof us, wow what we can create
and change and make impact on.
But I think if you don't valuemy story and I don't value your
story, then we've alreadycreated a limitation on God,
because what we're basicallysaying is I don't trust you to
fulfill the purpose and planthat God has for you.
(32:38):
I got to trust that God isgoing to do what he needs to do
in you and that I got to trustthat in myself and know that
there's something special whenwe both are walking with each
other and being destiny helperswith each other.
What's the impact that we canhave when we begin to start
giving space to hear eachother's stories and to recognize
(32:59):
that there's value in all of us, that God is using you, shelly,
and using you, heather, forsuch a time as this.
All of us have that such a timeas this, for this season.
We are here, so why would Ilimit you from being what God
has called you to be?
Because your destiny isconnected to mine.
So if you don't fulfill whatGod has, that limits somebody
(33:19):
else's ability to do that.
We got to create space foreverybody to be what God has
called them to be.
We're missing out.
Heather Drake (33:25):
I think one of the things that I would like to
remind people who listen is thatwe have a lot of freedom that
we're not even aware of.
We have a lot of choices and alot of power that we are leaving
on the table, and we need totake it back.
And one of the things that wecan do is pay attention to who
is telling the story in thestories that we're consuming.
Are we reading bell hooks?
(33:45):
Are we reading Sojourner Truth?
Who reminds us, us all the time, it was God and a woman who
brought us Jesus, and so maybethe new revelation we need to be
reminded of it is God and womenwho will bring forth this new
way of loving and saying.
You know, this is a chance forthe world to be different.
This is a chance for us to notlean into despair, but lean into
(34:07):
hope and say what are we doingto listen to the voice of our
you know, our Indian sisters,our Indian elders, our people,
american Indians, like.
Are you reading Caitlin Curris?
Are you reading Marlena Graves?
Are you reading these people?
Or are you choosing to hear thestory from the same source that
you've always heard it from,like?
(34:28):
Can we open up the streams.
Can we say this trickle is notenough, that there is waterfall
kind of abundance for all of us.
But we have to make choices.
To hear the stories, becausethe stories are being told, but
our choice is whose podcast areyou listening to?
Whose book are you reading?
And if we keep repeating thesame story, we're going to get
(34:51):
the same result.
So we need to make choices thatfree us and that expand us and
that ask us, in a place ofhumility, to learn from someone
else's experience, not just theones that we have seen.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (35:04):
And Heather.
I would add that people need tobe okay with I'm going to go
academic for a minute withcognitive dissonance.
I got to be okay that youpresent me something that's
uncomfortable.
Yes, ma'am, that you may saysomething that I go ooh, I don't
know about that.
But instead of being defensiveor retreating that we sit with
that, figure out where that isin your body that's making you
(35:26):
uncomfortable.
Is it in my stomach?
Why is that?
Why is my chest tightening up?
And begin to get in touch withwhy you feel the way that you do
, instead of automatically goingthat's wrong and I want to shut
someone down.
There is so much polarization inthe world right now because we
want to be right Everybody wantsto be right instead of going.
(35:47):
How do we create peace?
What does it really mean for usto create spaces where people
can bring the totality of whothey are and I don't have to
agree with everything and Idon't have to like everything,
but that doesn't mean that youropinion is less than mine or
less valid.
And how do we just be okay withpeople just showing up and who
God called them to be?
(36:07):
That's not my.
It is not my job to fix you.
Hell, I can't fix myself.
So.
I mean, there are days where I'mlike, why did you do that?
If I can't fix me and correctme, how dare I think it's okay
for me to start telling otherpeople what to do when I don't
even have it down?
And that's what gets me with alot of the super, super, you
(36:33):
know, dogmatic religious folksis.
Excuse me, you're putting upthis persona publicly.
That you're one way, andprivately you're out here being
super freak and you can be superfreak, but how dare you condemn
somebody else for doing it?
So get your stuff together andstop looking at the speck in
other people's eyes and look atthe speck and the log in your
own, and when you're able to dothat, you can't see me anyway
(36:53):
because that log is in your eye.
Get that out so you can see meand we can be together.
I'm sorry, I'm getting no, no,no, no.
Shelly Shepherd (37:01):
This is you've heard me say this to you before.
Your first calling was topreach.
Heather Drake (37:06):
I keep hearing that I keep hearing.
It Isn't that the very spiritof Mary Magdalene who Jesus said
go and tell the boys the betterstory?
Go and tell there is not deathis not the final word, that
there is love that has beenresurrected in all of us, and so
I appreciate that so much.
(37:26):
Francois, thank you so much foryour time.
Yes, thank you, francois, and Ipromise that, with your
agreement, this will not be thelast conversation that we have.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (37:34):
I think it is too much.
I hope not.
Heather Drake (37:37):
We need to have some part two, part 22.
But it's a beautifulconversation.
But I bless the words that yousaid.
May they register in divine andin holistic ways in people's
soul, and maybe we just have animagination that gets to be
expanded, or one spark or aquestion that resonates with
(37:58):
someone, and may the spiritguide them in looking for the
answer that is promised to us.
Jesus said if you knock, thedoor will be opened, and if you
seek, you will find.
And so for all of us in theseeking ways that are more
equitable for the entire world,jesus said there's a promise
(38:20):
that you will find it.
The women just need to get tolook.
And I'm going to end with theone story or you can jump in on
it after, but I'm trying to bevery mindful of your time and
I'll talk quickly here.
When somebody asks Jesus aboutwho God is, or tell us what God
is like, jesus says God is likea woman who starts looking for a
(38:41):
coin and I have said this overand over again People laugh at
it.
You don't send the boys to lookfor coins.
You don't send the boys to lookfor anything.
They can't find them.
So God is this woman who willtake her skirts up and lay on
the ground and look under thebed, in the floorboards, in the
drawers.
God will look and God is comingfor us.
God is coming for humanity, andGod is coming like a woman who
will find us.
I think it's essential in thepart of the story to remember
(39:03):
too that coins do not losethemselves.
Somebody else has donesomething, and you might find
yourself like a coin thatsomebody has done something for
you.
You feel lost, you feel leftout, you feel unfound, but love
is coming for you, and love iscoming for you like a woman who
will not stop until she findsyou.
And so this is the hope for methat we're telling the story
(39:23):
that says this is the story ofJesus.
Who told us this?
Yes, god is the father of theprodigal, yes, god is the good
shepherd, but God is a woman whowill not stop until she finds
you.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (39:36):
Amen, amen, amen.
He's coming for us, amen, he'scoming for us.
This was beautiful, thank youso much for your time.
Heather Drake (39:43):
It's important.
May they be blessed.
Shelly, thank you for your time, for all the spaces you're
creating here.
Yes, absolutely, thank you.
May they be blessed, Shelly,thank you for your time, for all
the spaces you're creating here.
Yes, absolutely, and for lovethat's among us.
Thank you.
And yeah, for our daughters andour sons.
May they live in a differentplace than we do.
Amen, amen.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
(40:05):
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with
Shelley Shepard and HeatherDrake.
In each episode, we dive deepinto conversations that
challenge conventional thinking,amplify diverse voices and
foster a community grounded inwisdom, spirit and love.
Shelly Shepherd (00:18):
Good afternoon my friends Heather Drake and
Froswa Booker-Drew.
It's so good to have the two ofyou here in this space today.
Welcome to the ExpansionistPodcast.
Glad to be here, thank you.
Heather Drake (00:29):
Shelley, I'm excited about what our
conversation is going to lead toand the expansion that our
imaginations and our hearts aregoing to be able to have based
on the conversation that we haveas women that we have as women.
Shelly Shepherd (00:45):
Yes, and Froswa and I go back several years and
it was just a delight to reachout to you in our friendship, in
this leadership journey thatyou and I have had and been on.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (00:57):
And maybe still we're still on and I
was gonna go.
Shelly Shepherd (01:00):
I'm not off, we still are on this space
together, yeah, but I wanna tointroduce the listeners to you
in this, this, this impressiveresume that you have, dr.
Dr Froswa, is you know that youare this person who just loves
building relationships withpeople?
(01:21):
You are this network weaver,you are a philanthropist, you
are a community developer andyou've built this diverse
network of individuals andorganizations around the world,
right?
Just unbelievable reach andjust the people that I've met as
a result of you.
I've just been so blessed bythe way that you share.
(01:42):
Isn't that like aphilanthropist heart, right?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (01:48):
Yes, yes .
Shelly Shepherd (01:49):
Just to keep sharing and giving and expanding
.
But Frasua has more than 25years of experience in
leadership development, training, nonprofit management,
education and social services.
She's the author of four books,an adjunct professor at Tulane
University, research affiliateat Antioch University and a
(02:12):
columnist for Texas Metro News.
You can learn more about her atdrfraswabookercom.
So, so excited to jump intothis conversation, this
expansion, this space with youtoday and hear what is on your
heart, what is in your hands,what have you been doing and how
(02:34):
is this women in leadershipspace impacting you and others?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (02:41):
You know , lately I've been working on
and we talked about this alittle bit.
I've been working on a bookthat you really were a lot of
the inspiration behind some ofthe topics in the book, but I've
been working on a book forwomen of color and leadership
and really thinking about itthrough a faith lens, because I
don't think we one see women inthe Bible as leaders.
(03:05):
I think we're often accustomedto people with these titles of
king and queen and even whenwe've seen those, quite often
like with Vashti and the Bibleas queen, they're demonized.
And so I really want to helpwomen see themselves in these
characters and learn more abouttheir journey and to see the
(03:29):
similarities and what are thelessons that they can learn from
these amazing women that youknow we hear preached about but
we don't really see the impactof their lives on us today.
And so it's been a journey inwriting this, but it's been a
gift because you started so muchof this.
(03:50):
One of the things I talk aboutin the book is the word easer
and talking about what does itmean if women really understood
what that word means, thatyou're a warrior and how, from
the beginning, that God saw youthat way.
That's what I want to impact onwomen when they read this is
that you are more than justbeing the help meat.
(04:11):
You have so much more.
There's nothing wrong withbeing complimentary, but there's
something that you have that'seven bigger, that I don't think
you recognize within, thatallows you to be complimentary,
that allows you to be thewarrior, and that's what I want
people to walk away with.
Shelly Shepherd (04:28):
Wow, you have a comment on that, heather, I'm
sure.
Heather Drake (04:38):
And then I'll jump in of connection and really
why Shelley and I decided let'srecord the conversations that
we have.
Is really these ideas that weare expanding?
And again, this really importantfacet for us is telling the
better story, or telling thestory with a slant, telling it
(04:58):
from another perspective, in noway mitigating or diminishing
that perspective, but sayingthere were other people in the
room, there were other peoplewho brought gifts.
And how do we find ourselves?
Because very often the storythat we've been told in churches
and I've grown up in the churchand am a pastor now but the
(05:19):
stories we've told are largelystories of the brothers, of the
men.
And so to be able to say that Ihave a place in the story that
God is continuing to tell and mydaughter has a place in the
story that God in the futurewill be telling or in the
present future is telling, andto be able to gift my sons with
(05:40):
the compassion as they hear andsee the value in the women that
are around them, and so I thinkthe work that we do is holy,
it's sacred, but it's absolutelyimportant because when things
are hard, we need to tell softer, more beautiful, more
grace-filled stories that canbuild bridges and unite us, even
(06:02):
in spaces where we don'tunderstand.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (06:04):
Heather, as you were talking, one of the
things that immediately came tomind is thinking about how
Christ created space for womento be a part of the story.
So when you think about thesisters and he's saying one is
doing the better thing Mary andMartha one is doing the better
thing because she's sitting atmy feet while I'm talking and
telling these stories and usingthese parables to help people
(06:27):
connect to the greater, and thathe's saying that the sister
who's being busy is missing outon the opportunity to be a part
of this story.
And so I think it's justfascinating, you know, as you're
putting this picture togetherfor us, I think it's fascinating
to think about how Jesuscreated those spaces too for the
(06:49):
story I love that you broughtthat story up, because I was
thinking about the other day andI was thinking we've heard it a
particular way.
Heather Drake (06:57):
The lens is Jesus is having this conversation and
he responds to Martha by sayingthat Mary is doing the better
thing.
But I wonder if that's notexactly the case.
I wonder if he was telling theboys that Mary is doing the
better thing Because, culturally, what would have been expected
is the women would have done thework and that the men would sit
(07:19):
at the feet of their rabbi.
So here's Mary, front row,sitting at the feet of the rabbi
, and Jesus says no, this is thething.
And then makes this declarationthis will never be taken from
her.
Yes yes, makes this declaration.
This will never be taken fromher.
Yes, yes.
And so this beautiful you knowthis again, this invitation of
yes, I'm telling the story thatwomen are included, jesus
(07:39):
absolutely did.
But to be able to say what ifwe believe, or what if we take a
moment to think about the factthat every man in that room
needed to hear Jesus qualifythis as this is the higher thing
, this is the better thing, thather role is not just to serve
the other men here.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (07:56):
Her role is to learn and to be able to
be part of the exchange, Agreed,Agreed, I think, to your point.
I think it's a both, and Ithink that there are lessons for
both groups in that and thatChrist is giving by saying that
you're right, it's theinvitation.
And so how are we in our dailywalk, as we're talking about
(08:19):
stories and bringing peopleclose, creating space for the
invitation for people to be ableto partake in listening to
diverse stories?
Because when you all weretalking, I was thinking about
all of these stories in theBible.
You may.
You know, when you all weretalking, I was thinking about
all of these stories in theBible.
We don't often think about theother people that are there just
in.
You know, looking at the Mark,Luke, John, you know the first
(08:43):
four books of the New Testament,how they were talking about the
same experiences but gave avery different perspective on
those experiences.
How is it that we create spaceto be able to give different
perspectives of thoseexperiences?
I don't know if we do that wellin the church of allowing
people to give their testimonyof those experiences that we're
(09:04):
all a part of, so that we cancreate this better picture and a
better narrative.
Heather Drake (09:09):
Yeah, and I just want to say, as a person who
still believes in the power of alocal congregation, that if you
have been silenced by thechurch or if no one has listened
to you, I repent on behalf ofthat and keep looking, keep
talking, keep speaking till youare heard.
Do not give up just becausesomeone told you to be quiet.
(09:31):
In fact, speak louder, if youneed to and move.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (09:35):
I don't think women need to continue to
be in abusive spaces.
Agreed, I think as a society wetalk a lot about trauma that we
experience in the world, but Idon't think we really talk a lot
about the trauma that churchhas caused, especially to women,
and that there is a healingthat has to come for all.
(10:00):
Like you were saying, I'm sorry, in doing that, the church has
got to repent for a lot ofthings too that have been done
that have been harmful in thename of power and position.
That was not connected to whatGod said we should be doing, but
because the man's ego anddesire to rule have harmed a lot
(10:22):
of people.
Heather Drake (10:22):
Yeah, and I think that you know paying attention
and offering an apology is astart from the church, but I
think that's not enough.
I think the church needs tomake amends and needs to build
better bridges to a moreequitable space where we do what
Jesus offered us to do.
Pass this around All of you eatthis, drink this.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (10:45):
This is what it looks like to be a part
of this, yes, and I think Jesusalso did this thing.
That I often encourage peopleto do as well is who's missing.
I think Jesus went and lookedfor the least of these people
that everybody discarded andsaid you're not good enough to
be with us.
That Jesus said who's missing?
I'm going to get them, and Ithink we have a responsibility
(11:08):
to start asking who's missingfrom this story and how do we go
get them?
If I got to go at night and havea conversation with you for you
to understand that I care aboutyou, what is it that we have to
do?
Instead of thinking thateveryone has to come inside the
church, that Jesus went to wherepeople were and that has to
(11:30):
change, that we begin to see thechurch as being more than the
four walls that we have, butunderstanding that there are
people outside of that placethat need us, and he went to
them and met them at their need.
I think, too, he demonstratesthat the physical need has to be
met.
I think so often we get socaught up in telling people
(11:53):
about you know you need to dothis, and this is what the word
says, and that's important, butif I'm hungry and I'm not just
hungry on Thanksgiving andChristmas.
But if I'm hungry then I needyou to be there for me and
support me.
I'm going to be able tounderstand the spiritual when my
stomach's not growling.
Shelly Shepherd (12:15):
That's so good.
You know one of the things thatI heard you say in the pre-show
, and correct me if this isinaccurate, but this work that's
coming forth in 2025 is focusedon women of color, or women of
color in leadership.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (12:36):
It's women of color in leadership.
But this is the thing, and Ipreface it leadership.
All of us are leaders, so it'sfor anyone.
I think we get so caught up onpositional power that we don't
recognize the first personyou're leading is you, so you're
all leaders, so it's foreverybody, right.
Shelly Shepherd (12:57):
Well, I asked that question to ask this one.
You know, when we're looking atthese pieces of who's missing
from the table, whose voice isnot here, and as you are in the
circles that you are in withwomen of color and people of
color, what are those storiesthat they're hearing or that
(13:20):
they've been told?
And then, how are those storiesdifferent stories that they're
telling their children tellingtheir children?
You know, are we getting to aplace where the conversation
that the three of us are havingright now, that we're at the
beginning Well, at least I feellike maybe you guys don't feel
(13:42):
this way, but we're at thebeginning of learning to tell a
better story, because we're notafraid to talk about the voices
that are missing.
We're not afraid to talk aboutthat.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (13:53):
I think that there is a sense of people
having more space to be vocal inways that did not exist in the
past.
I had to tell my daughter thisabout as you're looking at
history and she was kind ofgoing well, why weren't people
fighting?
I said they were, but it was avery different time.
(14:20):
There were barriers thatexisted and systems that were
even more restrictive in waysthat they still exist.
It's different, and so peoplehave more of an ability to speak
out.
That doesn't have the samelevel of consequence or the
consequences wouldn't be sooverwhelming.
They can be in a way thatdidn't exist in 1950 and 1960.
(14:44):
So I think people have alwayshad those challenges that exist
because of being different,whether it's being Black or
being a woman or you know whatother identity it may be.
That's not the mainstream andaccepted, but I think the
stories that I'm hearing frompeople are there's change but
(15:05):
there's not change.
So I think that in some areaswe're seeing advancement and
you're seeing opportunities, butyou're also seeing how those
opportunities are being takenand another narrative being
created around what their trueintent is, which is fueled with
fear and hate and misinformationa lot of those narratives and
(15:29):
they're fueled from a place oflack.
I marvel when I hear a lot ofthese people who are in
positions of power, who talkabout God but live in a way of
scarcity.
Because if God tells you thatI've got 10,000 cattle on all
these hills, then how is it thatGod is talking about?
(15:49):
I came and gave you a life tohave it abundantly and have it
more abundantly.
God is saying this, and yet youdon't want people to have the
same opportunities that you have.
You want to limit them becauseyou think you're going to lose
something.
What Bible are you reading?
Because I'm confused, becausethat's not what I get out of
(16:10):
that that there is plenty inGod's kingdom for all of us.
So I don't have to limit youfrom being the greatest version
of yourself, because in limitingyou also hurt me because I
don't get to benefit from yourbrilliance and your wisdom.
But if I allow you to havethese opportunities and access
and availability to be thegreatest version of you, oh my
(16:30):
goodness, what happens for meand the world around me and my
children?
But by creating these systemsand barriers that lock people
out?
So while you're holding me down, you're also holding you down
and I don't think people reallyunderstand that.
My mother always says if youdig a ditch for me, you need to
dig too, because you're going tohave to watch me stay in the
ditch in order to keep me there.
(16:52):
So you're not only hurtingyourself from getting out
because you think you're hurtingme, and so I think the story is
.
You know, right now I thinkpeople are feeling hopeful, but
I also think for a lot of womenyou're seeing, you know, a lot
of pay disparity, especially aswomen of color.
We know women, period, don'tmake the same amount as men.
(17:15):
But when you start looking atwomen of color, the paid
disparities another conversationI could have.
Well, you had that experienceyourself.
Can't really talk about it, butyes, and so you begin to start
seeing your value isn't valuedin the same way, although you're
(17:36):
doing the work, you got theeducation, got the experiences,
but the value isn't in the sameway.
And so I think for a lot ofwomen, what they're telling
their children is is that you bethe best.
Heather Drake (17:48):
We want to pause and take a moment and let you
know how glad we are that you'vejoined us.
If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a
friend, and if you found theconversation intriguing and want
to know more about what we'relearning or how you can join our
online community, visit ourwebsite at
expansionistheologycom.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (18:08):
When I was growing up, it was you got
to be 10 times better.
You got to work hard, hard,hard and almost kill yourself
because it was the belief ofmaybe people will accept you if
you do all these things.
You know, and the term iscalled respectability politics,
where if I just dress a certainway and if I talk a certain way
and my hair is a certain way,that you're going to accept me
(18:29):
certain way that you're going toaccept me, what we're
discovering is that's notnecessarily true, that I can do
all the things that society saysI can do, and you still will
find fault.
So how do I figure out how tobe the greatest version of
myself and live in the totalityof who God has called me to be,
regardless of a world that saysyou got to do one, two, three,
four, five, knowing that you cando six and still may not get it
(18:51):
?
So I think the messaging isdifferent for people now than
trying to fit in is tellingtheir kids if there is not a
table for you to set it, gocreate your own table.
And if that means goingcreating, I told my daughter, I
said it's not even a table gobuild your building and then you
invite people into the building.
You don't do the exact samething that others have done.
(19:12):
You do something differentwhere you bring everybody into
the building and you make thisamazing organization so you
don't have to worry about notbeing at the table.
Bump, that Do something else.
Yeah, and I think that's thedifference.
Shelly Shepherd (19:25):
You know, as I'm listening as I'm listening
to you, you know we're here thisweek honoring Mary magdalene uh
, her feast day was monday the22nd and as I'm listening, uh,
to your story, I'm wondering howfar we, we are removed, uh,
(19:48):
from this story in in biblicaltimes.
Um, we were, we were at adinner table on Monday evening
and the stories that were sharedabout life experiences as women
, as women in leadership, aswomen in the church, as women in
the public eye, right eye,right, the stories as they
(20:19):
unfolded made me think that Iwas listening to Mary
Magdalene's story, you know,from first century, second
century, third century, you know, here we are in 2024.
And the stories sound the same.
Maybe we could talk a littlebit about that, heather.
Why are these?
Why are these struggles soprevalent?
(20:40):
We know patriarchy is at thehelm of that, we know that.
But if we're, if we're invitingpeople to be part of a better
story, to tell a better story,like you said, frazwa, build
your own building story why isthis still so, so prevalent and
(21:02):
so challenging in our time?
Heather, maybe take us downthat road as we, as we think
about you, know how we honorwhat we have been called to do
or what we've been asked to door what we've been gifted to do.
And yet somebody's telling us,depending on, like you said,
(21:23):
fraswa, the color of our skin,the look of our hair, what side
of the tracks we live on,somebody is still telling us oh,
you can't do that, you can'tsit at that table with Jesus
because you're a woman.
Heather Drake (21:39):
I think ultimately it comes back to
something that Francois wasmentioning earlier.
There is an insidious lie thatwe have been fed as humanity
that there is scarcity insteadof abundance and we have been
afraid of each other and evenother women.
I mean, I think to myself thatif just between the women I mean
(22:03):
the boys can sit out of thisone, if between the women we
would support each other, ifbetween the women we would give
up capitalist greed, if betweenthe women we would say I don't
need all of this.
Where is the equity in this?
And whatever platform, whateverplace we have, whatever gift we
have, whatever resource, if welook around and even if we just
feed each other, even if we justtake care of our families, our
(22:27):
babies, if just the women wouldget in line and be able to say,
okay, this has gone this far, nomore.
No more, we are not excludingeach other, I think that could
change the world.
I think if just women could saywe'll handle it from here.
Thank you, brothers, we havegot this.
And not to exclude them, I havesons, I have a husband, I have
a father.
(22:53):
I don't want to excuse them, butthis hierarchy and this
patriarchy and theseprincipalities that are talked
about, that govern in unseenplaces, but they give us this
idea that there is not enoughfor us when the truth is, god is
abundance, god is love andthere is enough love for
everyone there.
But when we start being thehands and feet of Christ and
going this is what I have, howdo I share it?
(23:15):
And I think I would really loveto to uh, volley this to you,
fazwa, and have it.
Have you respond to it.
But I believe that when youstay in love and you return to
the love that is the source ofGod, it produces in you a
byproduct of generosity thatwhen you experience this I have
been given this then I can giveit away.
(23:35):
I mean, I think of the story wementioned earlier of the little
boy who gives his lunch away,and we've retold the story to
talk about the mom who packed alunch and who packed enough for
her boy to be generous and saygive it away.
When Jesus shows up, give itaway.
I mean he wasn't worried thathis mom was going to be mad at
him when he came home and hewould get.
You know what I mean.
Like there's a generosity inthis woman already in this story
(23:58):
.
And so he's free to give itaway, because he knows when he
goes home, if he'd given it away, his mom's going to make him
something else.
And so this story of abundance,if we believe it and if we act
in it, can lead us to a morepracticed and holistic
generosity, not where I amgenerous only if I believe
you're worthy or if I believeyou deserve this, but just an
(24:22):
outflow of generosity.
So to you with that, so good.
Shelly Shepherd (24:27):
So good.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (24:41):
But you know I was telling someone this
earlier about this is so good,so good, our source.
So we're disconnected.
I remember in class Mondaynight we were talking about the
cross, how the cross reaches upto man, but I mean reaches up to
God, but out to man.
And one of the things that justblew me away is the cross.
The part of the cross that goesup and down can stand by itself
(25:05):
.
It doesn't need us to be therewith the relationship piece.
But check this out If I takethe up and down part away, this
can't stand on its own.
It's going to fall.
Our relationships are contingentand our generosity is
contingent upon the source thatit's flowing out of, a source
(25:26):
Not that money is a bad thing.
I love it, it's great.
It can't be your idol and whatwe've done is we've idolized the
creations but not the creator.
And so when that disconnecthappens, I can't be generous
because the source that I'mcoming out of is limited.
When I connect to God, that'san unlimited source.
(25:46):
I will always have what I need,because that is who I am
putting first.
But a lot of us are.
We go to church and we talkabout these things, but our real
connection is not to God.
We put money and things abovethat, and so when you do that,
you have nothing to operate outof when those things are gone.
But if you got God, thepossibilities are endless.
(26:08):
That's what's missing and whypeople aren't generous.
Their source is not the sourcethey want us to believe it is.
Heather Drake (26:15):
I often wonder, too, if there is a beginning
story that needs to be told orretold, or told louder or
experimented on, is that you areloved by God.
You're very you, at the verysource.
You are loved, you are beloved.
There is nothing that you willdo to earn God's love, and so
you can always return to yourfather, to the eternal parent,
(26:37):
to your home.
There's nothing that canseparate you from that.
So, recognizing and claimingour own belovedness and saying I
am loved not because of whatI've done, not because of whose
I am, other than the fact that Ibear the image of God, I am
loved not because of what I'vedone, not because of who I am,
other than the fact that I bearthe image of God.
I am invited into this eternalconversation.
But owning belovedness, I think,is maybe not something that's
(27:01):
been prioritized in the church,particularly for women.
You're not loved when you havea husband.
You're not loved when you havethis thing or you've earned this
hierarchical achievement inChristendom.
You have a family, somehow.
That's a place of hierarchy inwomen in the church.
But to be able to say just youas you are, bear a light and an
(27:24):
image of Christ, and there'snothing that will separate you
from the love of God.
I think that often people havetold us there are things that
will separate the storiesthey've told us is we have a
very angry father who is keepingtrack of all our infractions,
you know, and who wants to gohome when they're going to be
criticized.
But what if we understood thatthe table was open, that this is
(27:45):
a feast that we've been invitedto and that love always calls
us home?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (27:54):
It's two things.
And you're saying that, heather, that that I think about.
A lot of us see our earthlyparents as the representation of
who God is, and so if you'vehad such a warped relationship
with your earthly parents,you're going to look at God as
an ass whipper, I mean causeyou're going to be like, oh, I
always got in trouble, so he'swaiting on me.
And I remember a pastor told meyears ago he said you have an
Old Testament view of God.
And I was like, yeah, becauseanything bad that happened.
(28:16):
I went, oh my God, god is madat me.
And it wasn't until I got freefrom that way of thinking to
understand that how do I have achild that I say I love and I
want to watch you fall and failand I get some kind of sadistic
joy out of that?
That?
That, how, how does that work?
If I don't do that as a parent,how does God, who is our, our
(28:39):
father and ultimate father, howdo I do that and look at you and
go, yeah, I love, when you keephurting yourself, I, I don't
understand how we have warpedthis.
But again, it goes back tocontrol Because, as a woman, if
I can make you think that youdon't fit.
(29:00):
You're different, you arecreated to a secondary status.
If I can make you think that,then you don't see how you fit
into this picture anyway,because I've made you to believe
that this picture wasn't evendesigned and created for you.
It was for men to be a part ofthis picture.
Well, that's problematic and weknow that.
(29:20):
We see the results of whatthat's doing, and so it's to
your point.
When you all started is youknow, and it goes back to this
quote, we need to be mindful ofwho's telling the story and the
benefit that they have intelling the story, because I can
promise you, the hunter isgoing to have a very different
story than the deer and the deeris going to have a very
(29:41):
different story than the hunter.
And both of those stories arevery valid.
Hopefully they're truthful, arevery valid, hopefully they're
truthful.
Let's put it like that, becausesometimes a hunter may
embellish their story just tomake themselves look bigger and
better and have control.
But I'll leave that alone.
Shelly Shepherd (29:58):
Well, yeah, there's that, and we often have
these conversations Heather andI are having these conversations
at table and in other placeswhere the female side of the
story has totally either beenleft out, for the most part,
ripped out or burned, you know,extinguished, so that we can't
even get our hands on the realstory.
(30:20):
Right, the pieces that we couldactually read in Scripture and
benefit from, right, like thosehave been, you know, taken away
or, you know, just not included.
They're not included, andthat's why this desire and focus
around seeing Mary Magdalene asthe apostle to the apostles,
(30:42):
right, this is why this story isa better story than even the
story of Adam and Eve, right,like that story got all jiggered
up somehow, I don't know, likeit's all messed up, and it also
touches on what Heather remindedus of, you know, the story of
lack, yeah, the curse ratherthan the blessing the beloved
(31:06):
right, like somehow that got allsideways, you know, in how it
was rendered into scripture.
And so for the women that youare writing for right, and for
the women who we are trying toreach as well, it's like there
(31:31):
is a place and a time for us tobegin again, which is this
present moment, which is thispresent time to see our value
and our worth and this sacreddivine connection that God has
(31:52):
given us all and to see thevalue and worth of one another.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (31:55):
It's important for me to know my
value, but I have to know, ifwe're creating the image of God,
that when I am looking at you,I am looking at a creation that
God felt valuable enough to behere, and so I can't just look
at you from a space ofcompetition and see the scarcity
.
I have to see that when we cometogether with the gifts and
(32:18):
talents that God has given eachof us, wow what we can create
and change and make impact on.
But I think if you don't valuemy story and I don't value your
story, then we've alreadycreated a limitation on God,
because what we're basicallysaying is I don't trust you to
fulfill the purpose and planthat God has for you.
(32:38):
I got to trust that God isgoing to do what he needs to do
in you and that I got to trustthat in myself and know that
there's something special whenwe both are walking with each
other and being destiny helperswith each other.
What's the impact that we canhave when we begin to start
giving space to hear eachother's stories and to recognize
(32:59):
that there's value in all of us, that God is using you, shelly,
and using you, heather, forsuch a time as this.
All of us have that such a timeas this, for this season.
We are here, so why would Ilimit you from being what God
has called you to be?
Because your destiny isconnected to mine.
So if you don't fulfill whatGod has, that limits somebody
(33:19):
else's ability to do that.
We got to create space foreverybody to be what God has
called them to be.
We're missing out.
Heather Drake (33:25):
I think one of the things that I would like to
remind people who listen is thatwe have a lot of freedom that
we're not even aware of.
We have a lot of choices and alot of power that we are leaving
on the table, and we need totake it back.
And one of the things that wecan do is pay attention to who
is telling the story in thestories that we're consuming.
Are we reading bell hooks?
(33:45):
Are we reading Sojourner Truth?
Who reminds us, us all the time, it was God and a woman who
brought us Jesus, and so maybethe new revelation we need to be
reminded of it is God and womenwho will bring forth this new
way of loving and saying.
You know, this is a chance forthe world to be different.
This is a chance for us to notlean into despair, but lean into
(34:07):
hope and say what are we doingto listen to the voice of our
you know, our Indian sisters,our Indian elders, our people,
american Indians, like.
Are you reading Caitlin Curris?
Are you reading Marlena Graves?
Are you reading these people?
Or are you choosing to hear thestory from the same source that
you've always heard it from,like?
(34:28):
Can we open up the streams.
Can we say this trickle is notenough, that there is waterfall
kind of abundance for all of us.
But we have to make choices.
To hear the stories, becausethe stories are being told, but
our choice is whose podcast areyou listening to?
Whose book are you reading?
And if we keep repeating thesame story, we're going to get
(34:51):
the same result.
So we need to make choices thatfree us and that expand us and
that ask us, in a place ofhumility, to learn from someone
else's experience, not just theones that we have seen.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (35:04):
And Heather.
I would add that people need tobe okay with I'm going to go
academic for a minute withcognitive dissonance.
I got to be okay that youpresent me something that's
uncomfortable.
Yes, ma'am, that you may saysomething that I go ooh, I don't
know about that.
But instead of being defensiveor retreating that we sit with
that, figure out where that isin your body that's making you
(35:26):
uncomfortable.
Is it in my stomach?
Why is that?
Why is my chest tightening up?
And begin to get in touch withwhy you feel the way that you do
, instead of automatically goingthat's wrong and I want to shut
someone down.
There is so much polarization inthe world right now because we
want to be right Everybody wantsto be right instead of going.
(35:47):
How do we create peace?
What does it really mean for usto create spaces where people
can bring the totality of whothey are and I don't have to
agree with everything and Idon't have to like everything,
but that doesn't mean that youropinion is less than mine or
less valid.
And how do we just be okay withpeople just showing up and who
God called them to be?
(36:07):
That's not my.
It is not my job to fix you.
Hell, I can't fix myself.
So.
I mean, there are days where I'mlike, why did you do that?
If I can't fix me and correctme, how dare I think it's okay
for me to start telling otherpeople what to do when I don't
even have it down?
And that's what gets me with alot of the super, super, you
(36:33):
know, dogmatic religious folksis.
Excuse me, you're putting upthis persona publicly.
That you're one way, andprivately you're out here being
super freak and you can be superfreak, but how dare you condemn
somebody else for doing it?
So get your stuff together andstop looking at the speck in
other people's eyes and look atthe speck and the log in your
own, and when you're able to dothat, you can't see me anyway
(36:53):
because that log is in your eye.
Get that out so you can see meand we can be together.
I'm sorry, I'm getting no, no,no, no.
Shelly Shepherd (37:01):
This is you've heard me say this to you before.
Your first calling was topreach.
Heather Drake (37:06):
I keep hearing that I keep hearing.
It Isn't that the very spiritof Mary Magdalene who Jesus said
go and tell the boys the betterstory?
Go and tell there is not deathis not the final word, that
there is love that has beenresurrected in all of us, and so
I appreciate that so much.
(37:26):
Francois, thank you so much foryour time.
Yes, thank you, francois, and Ipromise that, with your
agreement, this will not be thelast conversation that we have.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (37:34):
I think it is too much.
I hope not.
Heather Drake (37:37):
We need to have some part two, part 22.
But it's a beautifulconversation.
But I bless the words that yousaid.
May they register in divine andin holistic ways in people's
soul, and maybe we just have animagination that gets to be
expanded, or one spark or aquestion that resonates with
(37:58):
someone, and may the spiritguide them in looking for the
answer that is promised to us.
Jesus said if you knock, thedoor will be opened, and if you
seek, you will find.
And so for all of us in theseeking ways that are more
equitable for the entire world,jesus said there's a promise
(38:20):
that you will find it.
The women just need to get tolook.
And I'm going to end with theone story or you can jump in on
it after, but I'm trying to bevery mindful of your time and
I'll talk quickly here.
When somebody asks Jesus aboutwho God is, or tell us what God
is like, jesus says God is likea woman who starts looking for a
(38:41):
coin and I have said this overand over again People laugh at
it.
You don't send the boys to lookfor coins.
You don't send the boys to lookfor anything.
They can't find them.
So God is this woman who willtake her skirts up and lay on
the ground and look under thebed, in the floorboards, in the
drawers.
God will look and God is comingfor us.
God is coming for humanity, andGod is coming like a woman who
will find us.
I think it's essential in thepart of the story to remember
(39:03):
too that coins do not losethemselves.
Somebody else has donesomething, and you might find
yourself like a coin thatsomebody has done something for
you.
You feel lost, you feel leftout, you feel unfound, but love
is coming for you, and love iscoming for you like a woman who
will not stop until she findsyou.
And so this is the hope for methat we're telling the story
(39:23):
that says this is the story ofJesus.
Who told us this?
Yes, god is the father of theprodigal, yes, god is the good
shepherd, but God is a woman whowill not stop until she finds
you.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew (39:36):
Amen, amen, amen.
He's coming for us, amen, he'scoming for us.
This was beautiful, thank youso much for your time.
Heather Drake (39:43):
It's important.
May they be blessed.
Shelly, thank you for your time, for all the spaces you're
creating here.
Yes, absolutely, thank you.
May they be blessed, Shelly,thank you for your time, for all
the spaces you're creating here.
Yes, absolutely, and for lovethat's among us.
Thank you.
And yeah, for our daughters andour sons.
May they live in a differentplace than we do.
Amen, amen.
It was our joy to have youlisten to our conversation today
.
If you would like furtherinformation or for more content,
(40:05):
visit us atexpansionisttheologycom.
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