A Complicated Deep Dive into Paul Thomas Anderson's 'One Battle After Another'

Episode Transcript
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(00:14):
Music. Hello and welcome to the extra
credits of Paul Thomas Anderson's One Battle After
Another. I'm Trey.
And I'm Kelsey. PTA is back, and surprise,
surprise, he made another great film.
Yeah. This was our number one most
anticipated movie of the year. And people are now calling it a
modern masterpiece, one of the best movies of the 21st century.

(00:37):
It is getting universal acclaim.Some people think it's going to
win best picture. And even though I think I need
to see it a second time before getting to those high marks, I
love PTA and I love this movie. What are your initial thoughts?
Which is a lot to ask because this is a three hour, like,
sprawling epic. Yeah.
No, I mean, I think I'm in the same space as like, I am not

(00:58):
like, whoa, this is the the bestmovie of the decade, but I do
think like it is APTA movie thatI got to see in theaters with a
bunch of other people, which is awesome, just amazing.
Right. Like we, I felt like it was a
countdown for my week where I was like, OK, four days till
PTA, like 2 days till me too. And so that was, that was just

(01:20):
fun and it was a, a new world, you know, to, to enter into,
which is what I think is so refreshing about PTA movies.
And I, I think a lot of people like, feel that way that we're
entering into a new space with each one of his projects.
And Leonardo DiCaprio was so funto see in this movie also,
right? Like he nailed the tone and
humor that is really special about the the PTA project and

(01:44):
kind of like how he explores men, which we'll definitely talk
about today. Yes, the balance of tragedy and
comedy, but also just like there's something pathetic about
a lot of the men that he explores that is really silly
and strangely endearing. So yeah, let's start with our
relationship to PTA. So Licorice Pizza was his last
movie that came out from a few years ago now.

(02:05):
It was the movie that inspired us to make this podcast.
Actually. It was our first episode and
we're currently in APTA re watch, as I assume many
listeners are as well. And we're covering Boogie Nights
and There Will Be Blood on Patreon right now.
So that's very exciting. Yes, I'm so excited to do those
two episodes. Why do you think we both love
his work? Why do you think that this is

(02:26):
one of our shared favorite film makers?
What is it about his project that is so appealing to both of
us? Well, I think, you know, we
talked about this on our PhantomThread episode a little bit,
which I'm assuming we're giving away for free on Patreon.
We are Phantom Thread as well asAV Rockwell's 1001 in a
conversation we have with AV Rockwell in that episode is

(02:48):
going to be released in the freeepisodes section for free
members on our Patreon. So you can check the description
of this episode and you can signup as a free member and listen
to I think like 12 free episodeson Patreon right now.
One of them being PT as Phantom Thread which we had a three hour
discussion on and ranked his movies at the end which was a
lot of fun. Which I think has probably
changed for me now, which we'll revisit on like the either

(03:10):
Boogie Nights or or There I. Don't even know what we said so
it probably changed for me as well.
And that AV Rockwell conversation was really cool.
We also, strangely enough, talked about Battle of Algiers
on that episode. Right, because that's one of AVS
like favorite movies. Yeah, it's a movie she thought
about while making 1001, and that movie stars Tiana Taylor.
And obviously Tiana Taylor is one of the stars of 1 Battle

(03:30):
After Another. So I I figured those would be
two episodes that will be helpful to drop on Patreon.
And we'll talk a little bit moreabout 1001 when we get to like,
the beginning of the movie and Tiana Taylor's performance,
which was great as well in this movie.
But I think in terms of, like, why, you know, PTA is a shared
favorite of ours. Is that like, like I said
before, right, it does feel likehe has different unique

(03:51):
characters, unique tone and vision and world that he's able
to really like, realize in each one of his films.
But also, like, he looks at obsessive people and like, we're
pretty obsessive people. So probably like Fincher, yeah,
very similar. So I I think that might also be
part of it. Like you're just absolutely

(04:12):
sucked into his worlds, right. I I feel like I don't check my
phone much when I'm watching hismovies.
There's not a lot of like downtime once you're really in
it. And his characters also are kind
of like mysteries in themselves,right?
His his movies, especially like the Master, for example, demand
a rewatch. And so I think like the balance

(04:33):
between the humor that he creates through also very self
serious people. And you know, Phantom Thread is
like my personal favorite from PTA to like Reynolds Woodcock as
like a character also like put in this.
So the humor comes from a grounded place of like the the
kind of ironic like obsession that this person has, but then

(05:00):
like it's kind of turned on the character of how self serious
they are by another character that can either come out in
comedy, like even in there will be blood or tragedy in other
movies. And I think he just like
balances those tones so well. So and and you know, when you
think of something like his lastmovie, Licorice Pizza, that was

(05:20):
more like AI think like a love letter to San Fernando Valley in
terms of like the way that he shot it.
He is able to capture a place sowell where you feel like you are
in this dreamy, right realization of a world, but also
like grounded and you feel like the pavement, right, that like
Cooper Hoffman is running acrosswhen it's like so hot outside.

(05:43):
And it's just PT as fucked up, messy version of a coming of age
movie. And it was like a slice of life
story in which he hadn't been able to make up to that point,
which was interesting to see himin that lane.
And it's fascinating to watch him go from like a fifteen, $20
million budget in that to now this, which is like $150
million, which is, you know, farexceeds any scale he's ever been
at. And he successfully showed that
he could play in any genre that he wants to.

(06:06):
It makes you, it grounds your level of, I don't know what to
call it, maybe glorifying of theChristopher Nolans and Denive
Elnavs, which I can be guilty ofsometimes.
Because you're like, how do theymake these $200 million movies
consistently? And they're so epic.
And you watch Paul Tom Sanderson, who is like truly
like this art house filmmaker that has somehow made it into

(06:26):
the mainstream after these ten years, inspired by some of the
great ones who have done that before him, like a Scorsese or
Spike Lee or an Altman or Jonathan Demme and Sidney Lumet
and Pakula. And yet PTA comes back with this
movie and he's like, you know what, fuck it, I'm going to try
to make a movie on that scale toshow you that, you know, there
are directors in the art fields like these kind of more
independent scenes that can makemovies like this.

(06:47):
It's just that we don't always do that.
And so I think that's pretty cool about this as well for, you
know, to continue his project here with only his 10th movie.
The reason I love PTA, and I think the reason we both do
outside of just the obsessives, is he makes multi toned movies
about really flawed, ambitious people, and he finds those
people to be very cinematic. And so do we.

(07:08):
And yes, they're usually obsessive characters.
Characters who work hard, characters who need control,
characters who can't quite explain why they have the messy
behavior that they have. And because of that, a lot of
them are usually like these lonely, isolated, sometimes
pathetic strivers. And his storytelling is novelist

(07:30):
like, you know, it's like at a novelist level, it's so
thematically dense. It's always circling big ideas
about myth, about the cost of family, of making a found
family, the the cost of the American dream or the corrosive
cost of it. And he's also just, you know,
really experimental at playing with your sense of tone as an
audience member. His filmmaking is so
unpredictable and he has a real allergy to complacency where all

(07:54):
of his movies at this point in his career feel like they're a
little off Key in that, you know, includes that Johnny
Greenwood score that he comes back to in a lot of his.
Movies. Yeah, He's like purposely
offbeat. Yeah, and the the the score, the
Sonic energy kind of matches thevisual energy.
And also the albums that he chooses in his movies, like the
soundtrack is wild. And one battle after another.
I don't think we'll get to all of it today, but there's a good

(08:14):
Jackson 5 music drop in this movie.
That's unreal when you see DiCaprio escaping out of the
hospital. No spoilers yet.
And yeah, his movies just also feel deeply real about the human
experience. Like, because I, I don't how do
I say this without seeing like, super pretentious.
Like, I guess I guess the best word to use.

(08:35):
The thing about PTA is absurd. Some of his movies feel like
warmly absurd. And that's sometimes what it
feels like being a human being in your day-to-day life.
Sometimes your life can feel tragic in one moment, it can
feel darkly hilarious in the next moment, and then feel warm
and emotionally quiet sometimes.And his ability to transition
between emotions through his character journeys is so
seamless. And he makes me leap in those

(08:57):
different registers without really, you know, reflecting on
it. And it feels like it's just a
complete package. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
if we consider something like Punch Drunk Love right, where
this is maybe his most absurd movie, it still feels like the
things that Adam Sandler's character is going through, like
are real. Like buying all this like

(09:19):
pudding or like figuring out right the the miles like kind of
mistake in marketing like. When he explains it over dinner
and he's like, there's a barcodeon the end of each pudding.
They messed that up. And he's like, he's like almost
doesn't want to tell her, right.He wants to keep the secret.
But I think like, you know, all of the absurd kind of humorous

(09:42):
moments, even within, you know, the the most heightened movie,
which I consider like Punch Drunk Love are still very
grounded in in that they have some sort of like like kernel of
truth in that people feel like they like found something out
right or they're like, right. It's like it's looking at the
absurdity and the tragedy and like the everything in between

(10:06):
of human behavior and, and like these interactions within like
capitalism and and there will beblood or, you know, the the the
ways that like also he he continues to look at like men
and this like this project of trying to connect and he and he
really like captures interactions really well.
And, and so. Yeah.

(10:28):
I think Phantom Thread, you're right, is is our shared
favorite. I think you said it was your
favorite, but I think it's our you.
Don't think there will be blood as our shared favorite.
No, I'd say Phantom Thread. OK, I mean, maybe we can argue
about that on the There Will Be Blood episode, or we could do it
right here, whatever you're up for.
But I'm ready whenever. I have a competition in me.

(10:49):
I I think I really think that's his most special movie Phantom
thread, because on the surface it's this chamber piece romance
about routine and love and genius.
And then you have this large like suggestive subtextual
journey of the study of post warEurope and classism and
anti-Semitism and homophobia in the backdrop that you don't

(11:10):
really need to take in. You know, intellectually you
could just watch that movie as afucked up dark romance.
You could. But there's so much in that
movie about it being subversively about tortured men
when it's really about these women in the background who make
who make the world work. And it's such an achievement.
And I think it's a it's a Rosetta Stone for the rest of
his filmography because it's basically a movie saying that

(11:34):
the thesis of his artistic project is that men who are
ruining the world require unconditional love or else like
the. Decent terror or else.
They they demand unconditional love.
Yeah. And there's always a man in one
of his movies that just demands unconditional love.
And I'm not saying that PTA hates men.
I'm not saying that he's like men.

(11:54):
Men are the worst. I don't.
I'm not saying he's not saying that, but I think he's
definitely like, for example, I think Christopher Nolan is one
of the great film makers to be like, here are the highs and
lows of men. Yeah.
Bruce Wayne or Batman. You know what I mean?
Oppenheimer, like genocidal mania.
Yeah. Like he's like, let me.
Duality of man. The duality of males like.
I mean, take the prestige as a aliteral.

(12:15):
Every movie is an example for Christopher Nolan, but he's
like, here are the highs and lows and Paul Thomas Anderson's
like, here are the lows and lows.
You know what I mean? Like there's he doesn't really
explore the highs. And I find that to be
fascinating about him. I think it's because he finds
men sort of silly and he respects women at a high level.
So I think that's at the heart of what I love about PTA and his
project. Yeah.
And I think Phantom threat is like a great example and you're

(12:36):
right, like a a kind of really important text to to return to
to see. Like here's what PTA is doing in
all his other movies. I think people would actually
like argue maybe Boogie Nights would be that or there will be
blood or Magnolia or something like that.
But I actually think Phantom Thread is an interesting one to
look at because of the way that he like makes that world so
beautiful. You think of how he opens that

(12:57):
movie with like everyone gettingready and kind of the mundane,
like, you know, elements of someone's life and work and the
ways that he makes that cinematic and also the the ways
that he makes people like he he kind of like captures this
alienation that people are experiencing in beautiful
locations too. Like even when you think of the
master and like walking Phoenix walking on this like gorgeous

(13:20):
boat, right, with the water and the colors are so kind of
calming in that movie. But it's, you know, like Philip
Seymour Hoffman and and Joaquin Phoenix kind of like stick out
like a sore thumb. It feels like their characters
are bright or something in in contrast to the space because of
the the tone that they're able to capture that is like
juxtapose with the setting. And and so like, that is, you

(13:42):
know, it's wild that he's able to capture something like that.
That is, it has so much to do with the the characters, the
visual like cinematic language all being in conversation with
the text and having a lot of thethemes be in the background.
Yeah. He loves contrasts.
He loves juxtaposing things thatreally that really feel
beautiful and human to him and then destructive in the same

(14:04):
scene or sequence. Liquorice Pizza has a moment
where, like, the kids are running through, like, all these
cars. Yeah, paused on the highway
because they're out of gas during this oil crisis, and
they're like, living life with the music playing.
Yeah. Meanwhile, all these adults are,
like, falling apart on the highway as no one can move.
And that's a good visual representation of this kind of
like constant contrast that it comes back to about like

(14:25):
American life, which is fascinating.
OK, so 1 battle after another, we're getting into spoilers now.
So if you haven't seen this movie, go see it.
We've only seen it in the big show at the Alamo Draft House,
which was a good experience. But I want to see it in IMAX
because it's playing it. Obviously all the the I wish we
had a 70mm IMAX. We don't have anything like that
here here, but. We talked about the the whole

(14:46):
like IMAX conversation on our last mailbag episode too.
Yeah, I wish we still live near an IMAX.
We didn't realize how good we had it when we were living in
DC. Yeah, I mean, every time I see a
like a letterbox user from LA belike, oh, just saw this on Vista
Vision. I'm like oh so happy for.
You good for you and. We're still privileged of being
out here in Denver because we have a lot of access.

(15:06):
I can't imagine being somewhere where you don't have much access
to, like even an IMAX, for example.
Also I should know I am sick today.
Yes, Trey is really soldiering through everyone.
Yeah, it might not sound like itbecause it's not my voice, but I
just, I've just been like a stomach flu for like the past
three days. Well, I guess, you know, we, we
did talk about also on our mailbag, we got a question about

(15:27):
like, or maybe it just came up the like, people eating in movie
theaters, right? Yeah.
And we were defending the like Alamo experience or just
theaters like that where you caneat food after a long day.
I think I was hardcore defending.
Yeah. I was like, you talk shit about
people who eat at the Alamo Draft House, Fuck you.
Meanwhile, me eating at the Alamo Draft House, coming home

(15:49):
never wanting to eat at the Alamo Draft house ever.
Again, I don't think I'll ever all of her do it again either.
Just from from my experience, I.Blame you.
I blame oncoming monopolies, andI blame the fact that Sony
bought Alamo Drafthouse and thatwe let that happen as a country.
I blame that because a lot has changed since that purchase
happened after they stopped being independent.
Yeah. Anyways, I still respect

(16:10):
Alamo's. Betray is going through it.
Season pass. But yeah, I just, I don't know
what to say, guys. It's going to be a it's been a
rough few days and I hope it's not a rough podcast.
It's going to be a good episode.Let's do this.
OK, spoilers ahead. To start off, let's try to
define what kind of movie this is.
Even though it's not everyone's most fun exercise, I think it's
a fun exercise, so whatever. Well, yeah, it's so many

(16:33):
different things and people are calling it like PT as action
movie. I don't know if it's necessarily
that. So I feel, I feel like it's
worth it. I think it's sort of a Rorschach
test a little bit if you're walking out of this movie being
like, did I watch something Battle of Algiers adjacent or
did I watch something Mad Max adjacent as fascinating or Heat,
right. Like I think it's really
interesting to see how people are take what they're taking

(16:54):
away from this movie, what they felt was emotionally powerful
versus what others thought was emotionally powerful.
It's been really interesting to read in criticism and from just
like regular audiences. So this is a multi toned, multi
genre, big budget studio blockbuster.
You said that you don't think this necessarily is an action
movie, but what would you call this?
You said it was like somewhat oflike an adventure.

(17:14):
Film, didn't you? I, I immediately thought of like
road trip movies, even though that's not necessarily the case.
But I do think that, you know, Leo's character is also like
meeting Benicio del Toro's character and then as like a
guiding figure who who helps himright along the way.
And then he's trying to get to his daughter.
So even though it's not a like Little Miss Sunshine, it's still

(17:38):
a movie where he is sort of on this adventure, right, to try to
find his daughter metaphorically, right too.
And how he has to kind of like reflect on his inability to
remember the password and kind of maybe what that means of him
distancing himself from like what he how he's presented at

(18:01):
the the beginning of the movie. And so like, I, I think that to
me it felt more in that vein, not so much an action movie.
I think the action was like kindof a subversion in in the movie
almost. That's not the exactly correct
word. Maybe I'll get to it as as we
get deeper into this, it was a little.

(18:21):
Bit of a misdirect though, you'dhave some like really
politically complicated scenes in the middle of like larger
action set pieces. Yeah, but I wouldn't say that,
you know, it's like a thriller. We have moments of that.
We have like bank heist scenes. We have a lot of really great
car chases. But I don't think it falls on
action or thriller. To me it falls more so on this
like emotional through line of Leo having to reflect as a dad

(18:47):
and kind of understand the stakes of of his decisions or
like how he is living out his life now in connection to his.
Daughter 100%. I think it it wears many hats,
so I agree with you. I think at times it's like this
adventure, dark comedy, then it turns into a surreal political
espionage, you know, drama. And it feels like it's ripped

(19:11):
from the playbook of an Alan JayPakula of like, a parallax view
of a Sydney Lumet dogged afternoon.
And it also feels like it's satirizing the hero's journey in
some ways. I saw a lot of illusions to Star
Wars in this film. I mean, you said when, when Sean
Penn walks through the door, when they blow open that door.
Dicaprio's house. Yeah.

(19:32):
You're like, they shot it like Vader.
Yeah. And then also the duality of the
father and Obi Wan basically being Leo in this movie.
Like I I thought that was all like effective and like looking
for his Han Solo figure to help,you know, his Luke and Luke
being chase Infinity's character.
I was mapping on a lot of star. Wars Yeah, well, that's also
kind of maps on. I mean, Leo said when he read
the script he thought of Star Wars, right?

(19:53):
And I think that also might haveto do with something of being
like almost like an age to Luke,right, But still like starting
where we meet Luke right on Tatooine of like this.
The idea of him being maybe likea little indifferent or feeling
like far away from the fight. Interesting.
Yeah, that isn't, I guess so It's it's it's PTA is the Last
Jedi. This is PTA Star Wars.

(20:15):
But it does feel like it's satirizing Star Wars.
It's not. Does that make sense?
It's not totally being like thisis my, you know, Paul Thomas
Anderson version of Star Wars and mix of Mad Max.
But though it well, it's sort ofit's but it like it's subverting
hero journey ideas because it's giving us Leo DiCaprio as Pat
and later Bob. He changes his name, who is
basically this bumbling non herowho seems to have walked into a

(20:38):
revolutionary force and is more interested in in playing from
the outside of a revolution and blowing things up and then
coming in whenever all the job is done and being like, fuck you
guys, you fascists while they'redown already.
And he didn't really do much of the work.
And you know, there's a lot to say there about the symbolism of
him is like this, this kind of white quote, UN quote,
revolutionary figure. And we'll talk about that.

(21:01):
But his journey in this movie isless about him becoming the hero
and less about saving the world and more about him becoming a
father, somebody who is supportive, somebody is present.
And the real hero of the movie being more of his daughter and
the future generations that she's supposed to represent.
And the people around him who continue to be revolutionaries
even when it becomes too much for their life.

(21:23):
Like Benicio del Toro's character in this movie who who
looks really exhausted, but he'sbeen living the fight and
fighting the fight for the wholetime that Bob's been out of it.
Right. Seems that way.
So I think, you know, Bob, basically, I think it's told to
us in a pretty obvious image of Bob watching Battle of Algiers
getting high and then going on the phone in a hilarious

(21:43):
conversation with the codes thatused to remember and what time
it was. You'd rather get high and watch
Battle of Algiers than he would get in the middle of actually,
like, fascism and trying to, like, unravel it.
Yeah. And I think it's a really well
observed character, but he's kind of at the center of like
these multi genre, multi toned experiments in this film.

(22:05):
Like what what he's going through in this movie also then
changes the genre and tone. And what Leo's doing in this
movie. I think it's actually going to
be really underrated. And there's like a great
ensemble here, like I already said, with Benicio Del Toro and
Chase Infinity and Tiana Taylor,Regina Hall, There's a huge
cast, Sean Penn as the Darth Vader figure.
But what Leo was able to do to switch between tones with the
movie is so unreal. Yeah.

(22:27):
And I think we really don't giveactors enough credit with some
of these PTA movies because you have to imagine how hard it is
to play in a movie that is like multi genre, multi tone like
this, where you're asking actorsto be like, this is this is sort
of a tragic moment, but here's why it's also sort of silly and
self important. And so I want you to like walk
that line between being like overly serious, but also nothing

(22:47):
really matters. Like that's a incredibly hard
task. And I think he nails it.
Yeah, I, I definitely think so too.
I I think he also has just like,you know, the casting that goes
on like in his movies for like an Adam Sandler to be in a punch
drunk love world and nail that tone is so special.
But like our favorite, you know,PTA movies are Daniel Day Lewis

(23:11):
movies where like he's just an unreal actor who's able to like,
capture the seriousness of the characters.
And then the PTA vision is able to like kind of comment on.
And he his acting also brings itto a new level.
And I think Leo is doing like something similar here also that
I think, you know, Philip Seymour Hoffman was able to

(23:32):
really like realize in, in his other movies as well.
So yeah, I I do think it's underrated too.
Those are the top 2, I'd say. And then probably Joaquin
Phoenix. And then I guess, you know, Leo
is in that pantheon now as well.Yeah, but yeah, this film's
absurd and beautiful and it's, you know, I think you might have
mentioned this, but this also a father daughter movie.

(23:54):
Did you say that It's kind of a little electric father daughter
movie? And it's actually comedy, but it
also is APTA movie. So it's also this larger
portrait of a country built on blood going back to there will
be blood in his through line, other other political through
line of his career. Some people have said that PTA
is not a director, a political film maker.
I think that is like wrong. And I think all of his movies

(24:15):
have been deeply political. And I've always found that to be
a strange note on his films, especially if you, like listen
to any of his interviews over the years or his comments, like
his original commentary on on Boogie Nights, which is like,
there's so many moments of him being like, basically, I want to
be Sidney Lumet, who's like one of the great political film
makers coming out of the 70s. And you can feel that through

(24:37):
all of his movies. I just think that PTA has always
struggled when it comes to like taking himself too seriously.
Like, he doesn't ever seem like he wants to lean too deep into
the politics of his films. But yeah, I thought this movie
was, like, pretty extraordinary when it did get political when
it was like, here's a country that's militarized to the core.
Here is a a country that's stillpoisoned by this colonial logic
of an ethno state with a Christian nationalist running

(25:00):
politics behind the scenes. And like, what?
What are those clothes? What are those sweaters they
have on like like the? Patagonia.
Yeah, Patagonia. Like being the local football
star's dad is like, also the Christmas fascist.
Like that's hilarious. Shout out to casting JD Vance's
dad from Friday Night Lights to be one of the Christmas
adventurers because that is justlike, yeah, for millennials and

(25:24):
or Zillennials, it's a it's a very important casting moment
there. Yeah, OK, We can get into the
plot. OK, so Pat is drawn into a
revolutionary group known as theFrench 75 led by Tiana Taylor's
character and Taylor's characterand her performance in this
movie as a revolutionary is pretty awesome in the 1st 40

(25:46):
minutes that she's in this film.And I found her to be, AI would
say a pretty distancing character in the way she's
written, but a powerful performance.
And so PTA complicates the character because he gives her a
motivation that isn't clear, it's not purely ideological, and
her desire to be a revolutionaryisn't totally developed.

(26:09):
So I found her to be kind of fascinating.
I think the first 40 minutes of this movie is the worst part of
the movie, but I still was captivated by it, if that makes
sense. Like I'd see a 2 hour film of
the 1st 40 minutes, but I was sort of surprised, borderline
shocked by the treatment of her character because she did it.
It felt like it was leaning intoa trope without totally

(26:30):
unpacking that trope. And then by the end of that 40
minutes she's gone from the movie.
Like her desire to be a revolutionary isn't totally
developed to me, but it feels like she turns into this more
like mythic figure for the I guess the remainder of the two
hour runtime. Yeah, I feel like she's the most
flat character to me, which is interesting.

(26:51):
Yeah, I agree that her it, it wasn't really like clear totally
the the kind of like political ethos that the group has.
There are conversations around like, you know, the the campfire
where the guy is like capitalism's like end goal is to
perfect advertising. And so like, you know, and also

(27:12):
we, we can read into, I think the scenes like especially at
the, the very beginning of who they're fighting and then that
being juxtaposed with their Christmas adventurers.
Yeah, we have the detention center, the concentration camp.
We got the blowing up the that Congress person's building who's
trying to vote against women's healthcare.
Yeah, Also, yeah, there's the the phone call of like about

(27:34):
abortion, right? So, yeah, so I mean like that is
there, but it's not and it's notthat we need like 1 character to
give this very direct speech. But I, I think the movie could
have benefited from just being alittle bit more direct, maybe in
in certain like scenes or like side conversations that we
overhear from the group. Because because ultimately, like

(27:56):
the Tiana Taylor character then becomes like, like I said, kind
of like flat in terms of her being, I guess portrayed as
someone who like wants power ultimately, which is strange
because I don't actually think that's like necessarily what is

(28:17):
happening, but it's portrayed. But I can see how people could
like just. I think that's what he's saying.
I think he's saying that this character isn't how all
revolutionaries are, but he's saying that this specific
revolutionary figure who is at the top of the totem pole of the
French 75 has a desire or motivation to get back their
freedom or autonomy through antiauthority instincts.

(28:37):
And with with that means corrupting and, and, and like
diluting like fascism. Then she's going to try to do
that by taking out these like powers.
And I don't think all of this islike a huge critique, by the
way. This is just, I know it's weird
because we just started the plot.
It sounds like we're criticizingthe movie, even though we love
the movie quite a bit. But it is like, I think one of

(28:57):
the more, I don't know, one of the more confusing parts of the
film where I think so I I think the fact that her motivations
are somewhat ambiguous do sharpen her like as a complex
character, but that also seems kind of convenient considering
the political stakes of what themovie is like exploring.
And I think the big biggest example of what we're kind of

(29:21):
talking around here is her complicated arc with Lockjaw,
Sean Penn's character, who is basically playing like evil
Popeye, I guess the best way to describe him.
And that man develops a sexual, fetishistic, racialized
obsession with her, and Lockjaw blackmails her into going to a

(29:42):
motel to have sex. But PTA flips the dynamic in
that sex scene where he shoots the scenes with her dominating
him, which is complicated. And I think speaking to how PTA
views this character and what she is a revolutionary for, and
maybe what PTA thinks about revolutionaries at large is
still unclear, but I think he's kind of trying to say that,

(30:05):
well, there, you know what I want to bring up?
I I was thinking about this while watching it last night.
We watched Point Break recently and Heat.
We were watching like the great crime films and Patrick Swayze's
character. OK, Bodie, Yeah.
Bodie in Point Break and then Neil, the De Niro's character
and he, they both are just like anti establishment figures who

(30:25):
want freedom. That's like all they want.
They don't want people imposing rules on them.
And I think for whatever reason,PJ found it necessary to give
that same ethos, if you will, tothis Tiana Taylor character.
But then it feels like the moviesort of pivoting from that still
wants to make her like this leftist, radical anarchist
revolutionary figure. And I'm not saying that we

(30:45):
needed more characterization, like she needed to have like a
Malcolm X book, like on her dashboard or something.
Like, I don't know that that feels like lazy writing to me.
But I just feel like I never totally knew her, even if it
feels like to your point that I was with her throughout the
film. Yeah, well, I think, you know,
there's kind of two things goingon here.
One, maybe she was a sort of flat character in terms of, you

(31:10):
know, maybe seemingly complex under the surface, but we get
such a short like time with her because she is this figure that
is kind of looming over the the last or I guess like 2/3 of the
movie, right, with Leo's character with her daughter,
right? She's she's like a very felt
presence. And so it almost feels like this

(31:31):
first part of the movie. Well, it's not, you know, shot
this way and that's not actuallywhat's happening, but does feel
like a memory of someone, if that makes sense.
But I do think that this is my biggest critique of the movie is
how the politics are like maybe not as explored here in Tiana
Taylor's character. Because I think if you're like

(31:52):
paying attention to the text of her, like calling about
abortion, right? Or like, like you said, like we
open on her looking and like seeing where's the entry point
to enter this detention center there.
So that is like clear. But her conversations in the
more like intimate moments with Leo are, I think, like, yes,

(32:15):
complicating a character. But at the same time, like, I, I
don't think that it's like, necessarily helpful.
Not that, you know, any person has to be like a perfect
empathetic, like outwardly character who's also a
revolutionary. But I think it does complicate
like the politics of the movie and allows for people to say

(32:35):
something like what Leonardo DiCaprio said in an interview
just like recently, that he was like, there's extremists on both
sides. And.
Yeah. And so like that, he's.
One of the more politically inconsistent people.
In Hollywood, fascinating person.
Yeah, it was just, it was like an off comment.
It wasn't like he was, you know,deep diving into this, but he

(32:57):
did, you know, say that phrase and so like it.
I I just think like a character that is not nuanced, but just
like it felt like the the writing was like trying to make
her like emotionally complicatedfirst thinking about like what
then her character might represent.
If you are making a movie about someone who is trying to like to

(33:21):
change things right, like an uproot right institutions, I
just think then it becomes like you have to you have to think, I
guess about right, like what what her characterization means.
And so that's probably my only critique of the movie because it
opens up, I guess, comments likethat.
Yeah, but what's interesting is that is my only real critique as

(33:42):
well. Maybe one other toward the end
of the movie, but I I would never think this movie is like a
both sides film. Oh no, I don't think most people
are either, But I I and I don't mean that like she like, I don't
mean it to say also that people can just leave and be like, oh
wow. Yeah, she was an extremist.
But it was like portrayed as if she didn't have like an
underlying like political goal or, or like ethos, like some

(34:07):
sort of code or like literature.She was like pulling from
essentially right. It was it was more so like she
was she was written to be like, I'm a a tough like badass.
When she's having conversations with Leonardo DiCaprio and
Leonardo DiCaprio then as like aresponse is getting more so at

(34:28):
like her characterization, like her character of like, oh,
you're so tough. Like we have a family now and
you this is just a front. So like that became complicated
because it was like, well, I don't know what this scene
really means because I know it'san emotional scene between two
people who possibly like love each other but can't like
communicate totally. And maybe, you know, have a a

(34:49):
larger goal, right, that they'renot connecting on at this stage
in their life. And that's just like a
dramaticized, right, like kind of like example right of, of
like their goals in a, in a interpersonal like conflict
after they have a child. But it undercuts her is like my,
I guess my bigger point, right? It undercuts like what she's
doing. Yeah, so I guess I could see why

(35:11):
you could watch this movie because I think of some mishaps
in the writing in this first actof just being like a father
daughter story with a complicated absent mother
figure. Who is it more of a mythic
figure than a real person in themiddle of like radicalism?
Like I basically could see somebody walk away from this
movie being like that was a gooddad daughter like dark comedy.

(35:31):
And I don't think I don't I think PT would be disappointed
to hear that. I've seen some reviews titled
that like this is a dad daughtermasterpiece like, and I think he
would probably appreciate that because it's a lot more than
emotionality is. And I'm sure he relates to that
in his personal life, which we're not going to get into, but
he is like a fun personal life if you ever want to look into
it, because his wife is my Rudolph is amazing.
Yeah. I think where he gets a lot of

(35:52):
his humor from I'd assume. I mean, he was funny before,
like Maya Rudolph too. Absolutely.
But you can certainly tell things like Phantom Thread,
right? Which he talked about that that
was like that came out of an experience that he had of him
being sick. And he was talking about his
wife taking care of him, which Ithink is essentially right.
Maya Rudolph, like the dynamic between them.

(36:14):
Yeah. Well, there's a lot of really
smart boy humor in the first half of his career to me and the
second-half of career, just likereally intellectual humor, I do
think. OK, we're yeah, I I'm, I'm he's
also. Maturing the person.
Himself, but I do my rot, so I didn't want to talk about it
because I didn't. Want to be like, we're not too
glued to what's going on in PJ. He's a pretty like mysterious
person as well. He keeps pressing it like an

(36:36):
arm's length, which I think it'sprobably healthy, but.
Yeah, I guess anyways, I, I was a little bit worried coming out
of this to being like, you know,I get that.
I was thinking about the AmericaFerrera speech from Barbie where
they, Greta Gerwig basically writes America Ferrera to like
sing the thesis of the movie to this crowd of people, including
the audience and how, you know, beautiful that performance was

(37:00):
and also how it was written, buthow cringe ultimately that
sentiment felt because it felt so forced.
And I can see how a lot of directors would watch that scene
and go, I'm allergic to this to the point to the degree that I
never want to show my cards thematically to this point.
But I weirdly did think I needednot something like that, but

(37:21):
like 25% of that well. That's what I was saying.
Like, I think it could have beendone a little bit more in the
background conversations like the campfire, you know, comment
about perfecting advertising. I felt just so brushed to the
side. Yeah, so, so that's I, I don't
think you have to do you know, we we talked about this on
Barbie also where you don't necessarily have to do something
like that. There are other ways to do it.

(37:42):
And so like, I just think while I I'm basically going to say how
much I love the rest of this movie, but this is like the this
opening, I agree with you, is kind of like the the weakest
part. So soon after that kind of
complicated 1st 30 minutes to 40minutes, Taylor's character
gives birth to a daughter and that's with Pat.

(38:03):
And then she soon tells Pat thatshe can't be with him and the
baby and her mom at the house. By the way, the mom and Pat have
a funny dynamic. I forget.
I forget what she says to Pat. I for she says something like
you. Don't deserve my daughter or
something like that. You know that something to that
effect and she's like, I'm goingto go continue this
revolutionary fight. She's.
Basically like, I don't see it, Yeah.

(38:25):
And she also seems to be having like some postpartum new parent
anxieties and she basically doesn't want her becoming a
parent to distract her from revolutionary goals.
And or the suggestion is that the responsibility of being a
parent is maybe even scarier than being a revolutionary.
And like just that kind of like that wrestling of those two
walks of life of really being nervous about the self-interest

(38:48):
that parenthood demands out of aperson.
And I mean, we're not parents, but that's just me.
You. Know.
Well, we'll talk about it. That's what Leo's character
represents. Yes, and then we see this
massive think robbery sequence, which I just did not go back to
my point about Nolan Villeneuve.Like I'm so sorry, PTA, like I
didn't know you had this in yourbag.
Like that's insane. It was so well shot.

(39:10):
We had the French Connection style car chase where we're like
on the back of a car with a camera on the sidewalk.
Yeah, I was thinking about watching the like, as we I know,
Yeah, and the the all the car sequences were great, but
especially yeah, I guess we'll we'll stick on this one like the
the getaway cars. Getaway cars were really good.
Yeah, there's the cutting back and forth like that really was
like a a heat action sequence that was really well realized.

(39:33):
And I also liked how this was a different bank heist sequence,
even though it was pretty quick when we when we went in, then we
may have seen right before, you know, we we have like we talked
about heat and point break and especially like dog day
afternoon on the dog day podcast.
But we have like a an inspirational like pull from

(39:54):
that of when one of the members of the French 75 goes in right,
like takes off her mask and is essentially saying like, I am a
revolutionary, but I'm also like.
A person right in contrast to this like institution which is a
huge part of dog day afternoon where Al Pacino is essentially
right like getting the support from the crowd outside and also

(40:19):
the workers in the bank as to belike right to really like draw
the the contrast of the the bankbeing insured right and
institutions right not like serving the people right that
that whole. Conversation of economic
violence. Right, Which is like kind of
just really concentrated in thisone very short scene.
And I think, you know, PCA, eventhough we are saying like this

(40:41):
is the not the best part of the movie, right?
He does do like some interestingthings here that have like a, a
broader, more like interesting comment that do work.
We're like we have Leo's character at the very beginning
of the movie. He's kind of like the what Paul
Thomas Anderson calls is like the the 6th most important

(41:01):
person, like the 6th man of the French 75, right?
That's really funny. He, I guess when he was writing
this, as he continued to write it throughout the like past 20
years, was thinking like it would be really interesting to
follow like the the 6th most important person in this group,
right? Like because everyone ends up
getting killed, all the people who are maybe like more savvy or

(41:23):
politically in tuned with the like mission right of the group.
And then it's like we we just follow him.
Like that was kind of like the premise.
PTA That was interesting. But what I think he does in
terms of like making Leo's role as the explosives guy, I don't
know what to call his specific job title, but right, He's like
this white guy who's in the group and the the fact that he

(41:48):
is like at an arm's length, right?
Like, I guess metaphorically, but also literally, like far
away from the action, right is also in a comment, I think on
Leo's role, as you like, broughtup as a white guy in this
revolutionary group where then he comes in right at the very
end and he is like celebrating, right?

(42:08):
So I think that's purposeful. And then I also think there's an
interesting scene in here at thebank heist where we have the the
guy who's reaching for his gun, who's a black security guard and
Tiana Taylor kind of having thisemotionality in her voice to be
like, stop, like, what are you doing?
Don't do this kind of thing as he reaches for his gun even

(42:29):
after he was shot. And so like that is, even though
a very small moment, something that's interesting in terms of,
you know, something that I, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say is
on like PT as mind in conversation with like Daniel
Day Lewis's. I have a competition in me like
capitalism essentially being a disease and people seeing their
identity as like workers, right.I I think like that scene is

(42:53):
fair to say that it's in conversation with that kind of
like overall theme that's running through this first part
of the movie. Yeah.
No, 100% agree. I yeah, there's a lot there
thematically that suggested I just cinematically, I was just
like, kind of taken aback. And I was like, I'm going to
think about this more in the second watch.
So that was really well said. Lockjaw arranges for Tiana

(43:16):
Taylor's character to be freed sort of right in this program in
return for her betraying her team.
And what they call her is like the rat the rest of the movie
because of this. And she agrees.
She enters into that witness protection program while the
French 75 are massacred in a quick.
Yeah, something that I didn't even like until we're talking

(43:38):
about it now realize was such a chilling moment in the movie
because it goes so quickly. Like, you know, we we see later
on kind of the elevated, still scary, but like kind of absurd
moments of Sean Penn's character, you know, saying
like, give me a reason to go here.
And and kind of like his his character also being sort of

(44:01):
like a no country for old men like but absurd right Figure of
like walking through, yeah, walking through the the desert.
But I I think like the the kind of sheer force that they are
able to show here from the military just like taking people

(44:21):
out. Yeah, it's.
Frightening. Yeah, it's really scary.
And you know, you, You like, view this as like a heightened
action movie, but I'm sure that Paul Thomas Anderson was
thinking about like real life events of like the FBI and like
the Black Panthers. And you know, there's moments
where they literally like instead of even like arresting

(44:42):
someone just like for Alana Himes character, right?
They just like take her out in the back of that convenience
store. Yeah, Alana Himes shot in the
head and then Wood Harris has smoked out in his home.
I wish Wood Harris got more to do in this movie.
Love him. And PTA kind of punctuates all
of that with the one of the men who gets held up by the cops and
his backs against the wall, whatseems to be a parking garage.

(45:03):
And they're like, you know, keepyour hands up.
Stop moving. He's not moving, and his hands
are up. And then it sounds like a
gunshot. And the edit cuts to the next
sequence where it slows down andyou're like, holy shit, that
happened so fast. Yeah, it was a little jarring to
see Alana Heim. I was just going to ask you.
Yeah, I felt the same way. I think I love Alana Heim and I
love Alana Casalana in Licorice Pizza.

(45:25):
I think that role was perfect for her.
I just think here it felt it, itfelt out of place and it kind of
took me out of the movie. Like when she delivered the
radio to Leo's character and like told him the channel to
stay on. I I just felt like her presence
was kind of distracting in that moment.
And I hate to say it because I Ido love her, but it it just felt

(45:48):
like out of place. 20 years fromnow, no one will care, and
they'll be like, that's who starred in Licorice Pizza.
But because it is so recent and Licorice Pizza was such a weird
detour for PTA, even though it was like a wonderful one for the
most part, I think it's interesting to to see her on
this when the camera was so focused on her.
When she handed that camera over, it was like the movie knew
that this was Alana Heim in thismovie.

(46:10):
So yeah, that was kind of a devastating, tragic minute or so
there. And there's also just like a lot
of good music going on in this movie at this point.
We got a lot of great, got a great score going during this
chase sequence from Johnny Greenwood where he's doing this
classic off key orchestral swelling that's just really
unsettling. That speaks to a lot of the

(46:31):
themes and tone of the PTA project.
And he's really good in the master with that score and other
films. And we'll come back to some
needle drops in a bit, but we get to Act 2, which is basically
jumping forward 16 years, right?Because Tiana Taylor escapes to
Mexico, right? Yeah, because she's alive in
Mexico, right by the end of the movie.

(46:52):
Yes, I think so. I was a little bit confused
about that. I actually don't know where she
is. I don't remember.
She was in Mexico. Oh, OK.
Yeah. But I was confused because Sean
Penn's like, I put your mom in the ground to chase Infinity's
character. Yeah, but she.
Oh OK. You thought maybe he killed her.
That's what. Well, no, remember.
She. I know, but she she leaves the
note for him, right And he like rips it off the wall in that

(47:17):
like really staged home. I thought it was suggested that
he, in the intervening like 16 years, had gone into Mexico and
killed. Oh oh, no, I don't think so.
OK, interesting. No, no, she wrote her a letter
like in hiding, I think, and andsaid like when the time is
right, maybe we can like meet. But no, I think that he was

(47:39):
just, like saying that to rewrite his own, like past as
he's like, yeah. Like.
Whatever that means. Yeah, like, or to also try to,
like, rationalize what he's doing in this moment, too.
Like you know the moment where him and and Willa like end up
together. Right.
I guess. Yeah, he did kind of cause her

(48:00):
to disappear. So I see what you're saying.
OK, That's interesting. Yeah.
So we jump for 16 years. Pat is now Bob.
Yeah, and Bob is a paranoid drugaddicted wreck kind of hiding
out with his daughter in his Hutat Yoda at this point, his life
old stage Obi Wan, if you will. And Willa is now Willa.

(48:23):
She wasn't Willa originally. And DiCaprio again, late stage
career is fascinating, right? He the past few years, let's
just go through this since 2013,The Wolf of Wall Street, Once
Upon a Time in Hollywood, don't look up Killers of the Flower
Moon 1 battle after another veryvolatile, chaotic electric

(48:44):
performances, going from sort ofsedated to jumping out of a
window kind of vibe. Again, very Joaquin Phoenix.
I don't know what's up with his generation of actor doing that
because it is very Pacino, you know, going back to your point,
but it's fascinating. I love it for him.
It's very strange. I mean, he he wasn't not doing
that before like the Django Unchained and some other movies.

(49:07):
But I'm sort of surprised this is like what he's leaning into
now. I don't know.
He's he's trying to get away from the modern like Hollywood
heartthrob. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting
to see where he started out. Like in Titanic.
Catch me if you can. Yeah.
Like departed. Yeah, Well, departed, I guess is
like an extension of that. He's still kind of this boyish,

(49:28):
like naive. Getting away, I guess the part
is the beginning of him getting away from expectations, yeah.
That's interesting. But yeah, Leo is so interesting
in that a lot of his performances feel like he can do
that because he's in this like, next tier of fame where he also
doesn't have like, a huge press presence or like, people don't

(49:50):
know his personality. And he's really able, which is
like a a kind of a privilege to not be able to sell himself,
right? Because he got famous so young
and he's like a white guy in Hollywood.
We just see an image of him withlike some under 30 year old
woman on a yacht every six months.
Yeah, that's basically. Yeah.
And he gets to like, yeah. And he also gets to
simultaneously like, maintain this, like, environmentalist

(50:10):
sort of thing, while I think being pictured with like, Elon
Musk. I don't know.
So Jeff Bezos is what? Yeah, so he's a very interesting
like American figure and productof like Hollywood.
So, but I do think that his his roles that he's taking are very
interesting and that he, he saidlike in the interview on the big

(50:34):
pic that he was like looking forpeople who were funny, but in a
grounded way. But I also think he's like
obviously has opportunities to take the best scripts, right?
Absolutely, yeah. He can be in any movie he wants
to, and he's going to be to Martin Scorsese movie next.
I know. So that's very exciting.
Yeah, he said that he was. Opposite Jennifer Lawrence OH.
I didn't know that. Yeah, he said that he was like

(50:56):
re watching Vertigo because thatwas a inspiration for Marty's
and his next movie. Well, to be on Patreon, yeah.
So in the second act, he's basically playing a mix of Jeff
Bridges with his Robe Lebowski style and Jack Nicholson's like
mid to late career volatile absurdity.
Going back to the departed, somebody's just a little bit

(51:18):
unhinged. Yeah, You know, it's like not
evil. Obviously we've talked about
this, you know, at length where like women are don't get roles
after like a certain age, which is like far worse.
But then there's, you know, there is an interesting, I think
age where men are like placed inrobes.
Someone like create a chart of that please.

(51:40):
That's really funny. Yeah, the trajectory.
So the way PTA makes him bumble through being paranoid and like
threatening Willa's teenage friends is some of the best Leo.
I think of his career where he'slike talking to her friends and
warning them the whole come after them or whatever if they

(52:00):
mess her up. Yeah, it's like whatever you do
to her, I'll do to your whole family.
Yeah, it's insane, but he's really good in that mold or that
mode. I I don't think I've ever seen
Leo in that mode because he doesn't play a father typically.
Yeah, he's played like Father, you know, figure, but not
necessarily like I think in conversation with his child,

(52:20):
like he was a a dad in Inceptionessentially, right?
Like he's had children in his movies, but it's not like the
the the father aspect of that has not been I think at the
forefront. I don't see Revolutionary Rd. in
a long time. I think he said that he had
maybe been a father in that as well, but I forgot.
I like seeing him in this mode, though, because he's in the car

(52:43):
with Benicio Del Toro later in the movie.
He's like, I don't even know howto do her hair and that kind of
shit. Then when he delivered that, I'm
like, how do you do that? Like he didn't, you know?
I know he's an actor, but I knowthis guy doesn't have kids as
far as we know, right? Like, I know, I know he.
Just he's good, yeah. And so I thought that was just
very impressive because that that felt like there's a lot of
weight to that in many differentways.
But yeah, he's ultimately very pathetic, but hilarious and sad.

(53:06):
And then chase Infinity as Willa, who I'm not too familiar
with as an actress. She was in the show that I
really loved when I was watchingit during my surgery.
It got me through Presumed Innocent, the the remake with
Jake Gyllenhaal. She was the daughter in that but
and I thought she did a great job, but didn't have like a huge
role or anything. I think she's great here.

(53:28):
She actually doesn't have a lot of speaking lines.
I was going to say, I felt like she was in a silent film.
Yeah, but I mean, she does a great job.
Vacuum in the movie where she could just like it was all
suggestion in the face, a lot ofphysicality in her performance.
And I thought her physicality was actually really remarkable.
And she goes on this, like, journey from being innocent to
sort of like borderline dangerous where she is going to

(53:48):
lead a revolution because by theend of the movie, she has like,
zip ties on driving cars and like, fighting people and
shooting, shooting one of the Christmas assassins.
Yeah. Well, yeah, I think that
actually her performance, yeah, is.
Yeah, I think when I think her performance is actually really
underrated too, like we talked about Leo, but especially her

(54:09):
because you're right. Like we, I, I get the emotions
that she is experiencing in the bathroom at school when she's in
shock when Regina Hall shows up and the the kind of like gadget
that she thinks is like basically fake and her dad's
kind of like paranoid and out ofhis mind to give her this metal

(54:30):
harmonica looking thing like when it actually works, right?
I feel her her kind of like going through these different
stages in a very short period oftime of like, wait, this.
My dad is actually not like, youknow, making this up Slash.
I guess I have to trust you withmy life.

(54:52):
Scared. I was getting some Spy Kids
vibes. I know my millennials coming out
well. That's definitely the gad.
I love a gadget. OK, when they introduce this
gadget as Leo has to go take a new identity and you know the
the guys like when you put them next to each other, they will
like play the melody whatever. I was like, yes, I love a
physical gadget. So when this shows up and we

(55:14):
have the the melody go off, you know her her face work is doing
a lot. But then also when she's in the
car with Regina Hall, she has this kind of scared, still in
shock, but like sweating right moment where I I just like
understand, I guess, like what akid would be experiencing at

(55:35):
that moment. But she has to do that all
through her face. And then later on when she's
with Lockjaw, right, she again is silent, has like some lines
of anger right towards this likeperson and also like
highlighting that he's pathetic,but again, needs to do a lot of
just like face acting for that. Why is your shirt so tight?

(56:00):
There's like AGI, Joe or. Something there's a moment where
Regina Hall comes into the bathroom and the movie kind of
takes off for me and she's like in the mirror.
It's like a mirror shot of her talking to Chase Infinity's
character. And Chase Infinity's face is
doing the whole like, oh, my dadis you know who he said he is
that you're talking about? That really reminded me of when
Danny Trejo comes and picks the kids up from Spy Kids.
He's like, your parents are spies.
That's what I meant. Oh OK, I thought you meant the

(56:22):
gadgets. It's been a while since I've
seen Spy Kids. But no, it's masterpiece.
Yeah, that was definitely. A revelation.
Don't forget to like and subscribe to this podcast.
You'll listen to no other One Battle after another episodes
that will reference Spy Kids andStar Wars as much as you've
heard today. Yeah, this.
Is Paul Thomas Anderson's Spy Kids and Star Wars.

(56:43):
Star Wars? It's a re imagination.
So Lockjaw, as we see in this 16year jump has risen to power,
now a Colonel, and has kind of expanded those concentration
camps that he had that were smaller and now are much larger,
filled with people and children.And he is trying to become a

(57:06):
member or is being kind of looked at to become recruited,
recruited to become a member of the Christmas Adventurers Club.
I'm going to let you, I'm going to let you explore this a little
bit because everyone in the theater was laughing a lot at
this, including you and I I understood why.
I think I understood why it was funny, but it wasn't hitting me

(57:26):
the same way. I think.
That I always think it's funny to make fun of fascists, but I
don't. It wasn't.
It just wasn't hitting me the same way.
Yeah, OK, well, first, it's really funny, I think
considering like the the time, right, that PTA decides to write
this where, you know, their their group is called the
Christmas Adventurer Club. They're kind of like greeting to

(57:50):
each other is Merry Christmas. And this is kind of all around
the the time when we have the kind of Starbucks debacle in the
news of the holiday cups and taking off like Merry Christmas,
the the war on Merry Christmas versus Happy Holidays.
Christmas being weaponized as this like rallying cry.

(58:11):
The whole like Fox News segment of Santa Claus is certainly
white, right? Like this whole all absurd
debate that is like rooted in this, like white supremacist
nationalist like ethos that thenis just like coded right through
this whole Merry Christmas uproar.

(58:34):
Yeah, Christmas has dog whistle.Exactly.
And so like the the coded kind of like Merry Christmas that the
people like greet each other with is like feels racist,
right? And I think it's funny because
like, I think people have experienced that when people do
say Merry Christmas to each other, there's a particular like
type of person and way to say Merry Christmas that feels like

(58:58):
this is a code, right? And then, but also, you know,
with like the whole Hail Saint Nick, right?
And like, I was thinking of likeRosemary's Baby, like Hail
Satan. But we have, we have like,
there's so many things going on.But like that we have this like
Hail Saint Nick, right? As again, like a a nod maybe to

(59:19):
like the the conversation aroundlike Santa Claus, like having to
be white as this like iconography of like Christian
nationalism in the US. But also like it the the idea
that it is about like Christmas,like it's rooted in the
Christmas Adventurers Club. Is is also like nodding to the
absurdity, but also like the arbitrary shit that the this

(59:43):
like white nationalist group is able to use as like a weapon to
then like keep their power and status.
So I think like that was like pretty well realized, but just
funny in terms of like the codedlanguage and seriousness in
which they were exchanging like the Merry Christmas.
The second thing though, I. Understood the intellectual
aspects. Of it, but OK here here's why I

(01:00:04):
think maybe you didn't it didn'thit you maybe in the same way as
that you didn't really grow up like around upper to middle
class white culture as like as much as I did.
So I feel like I maybe heard like this Merry Christmas
exchange. Or like a strong Morse on the
Christmas. All captions.
Yeah, like a capital Christmas. So I I think maybe that's like

(01:00:27):
what? That's a part of the humor, and
it's also just the the elevatedness of how this is kind
of a different movie you're watching all of a sudden when we
go into the basement of this, like white.
Suburb. This is one of the best
sequences in the movie just in in how we're we're introduced to
this world and kind of like continuously surprised like as
we go deeper and deeper into thetunnels or I guess like bowels

(01:00:49):
of the United States, if you will.
But right we have an amazing Christmas song needle drop.
I'm forgetting what it what the song was.
I think it was like a one of themore religious undertone songs.
Someone can tell me what song itwas in the in the comments if
you want to if you remember. But right, we have the kind of
like overview of the car pullinginto this half circle driveway

(01:01:14):
into this ultra wealthy, you know, home where like these
white people are obviously living in this totally like
secluded right neighborhood. And it reminded me of even
though it's not the same settingof like ultra wealthy, but of
Spike Lee's black Klansmen. The the like meeting scene where

(01:01:37):
the woman like answers the door offers like someone food or like
in this particular, you know, scene like pancakes and he's
like ha ha ha, you're a famous pancakes, you know, like.
It goes full satire. Yes, so so then, but you know, I
I love as he continuously goes deeper and deeper like into the
home and then goes to this kind of like football stadium

(01:01:57):
underground tunnel situation, which I thought, you know, if
you want to really read into it.But definitely I conjures up an
image or or kind of like metaphor of like these
connective like underground tunnels of like the United
States in terms of the ideology that's like living in this
particular tunnel. But anyway, so he goes down.

(01:02:21):
I wonder what is in all the restof the rooms down there but
they're in this like. There are a lot of rooms.
Yeah, they're in this, like, room that there is a weirdly
shaped, like, wide, you know, room that looks like very
official in terms of like, there's expensive furniture in
there. Oh, really?

(01:02:41):
OK. But there were like, those, what
are those wooden ducks called? Mallards or something?
Right. So a lot of this wealthy kind of
like, imagery. Yeah.
That's also, like, scary. I felt like it was pulled out of
a Jordan Peele movie. I was thinking of like, get out
obviously with the the basement too.
But yeah, I, I think this like whole sequence was really
interesting. We have, like we said, JD

(01:03:02):
Vance's dad. Sorry, I don't know the actor's
name, but shout out when in conversations with like Friday
Night Lights, we also have this like drooling, right old white
man who is saying all this like racist shit and like telling
this guy in this Patagonia vest like his what, what he wants him

(01:03:23):
to do. And it's like this guy is the
guy who holds all this power andwe're going to listen to right?
Like that's obviously purposeful.
But then we have like the Patagonia guy who you like,
don't expect to be. They're the elf.
Killer the elf assassin. Yeah, they're assassin.
Yeah, like they're gun for hire.And he's the way that he talks

(01:03:47):
like he's on a golf course or something like, Oh well, gents,
you know, like, if if I pick up what you're laying down here,
like this is concerning. Like.
And and so, you know, that wholescene, I think was like really
well done in keeping the absurdity and kind of
highlighting also, again, the like absurdity of this kind of

(01:04:08):
like ideology. But then within that you're able
to like make a more, I think serious comment about like
obviously this group that then is a stand in for how this is
connected to like the the military, right, government and
the like monopoly on violence. And and yeah, so like I thought

(01:04:32):
it was all a great, great. And they're sort of frustrated
with Sean Penn, not only becausehe had a relationship or had sex
with someone that was not white,but also because he's not
breaking the rules in the way that they see fit.
Like he's going in and like militarizing certain zones that
they're not like not ready to gointo yet.
That's what it feels like, whichis really fascinating just in
terms of the the political aesthetic of what it looks like

(01:04:54):
that Sean Penn is doing with hishis rogue military force.
Do you think that the movie, andI don't mean this in a really
serious way, so we don't have tohave a very hyper serious
conversation about this, but do you think the movie risks making
white nationalists and white supremacy dog whistling so

(01:05:17):
cartoonish that leaves these characters feeling sort of
weightless? I know none of this movie really
feels too well. I guess that's not true.
Some of this movie really feels grounded like real world when
we're seeing like concentration camps filled with refugees and
like migrants or you're seeing store owners like have people
hiding upstairs from ICE agents or just like the military coming

(01:05:38):
in like taking over the city of Back to Cross.
That all feels very real. But then PTA sort of does a
detour when he meets these far right extremists and paints them
as silly losers that are like creepy and are cartoonish
figures. Some of that is like sort of

(01:05:58):
cathartic of seeing that on screen because it is mainstream
Hollywood and Hollywood sometimes will protect its own
status and studios won't always green light big budget
blockbusters that are making funof the far right because
Republicans buy sneakers too. They buy tickets.
But do you think the movie does risk making the fascist too

(01:06:20):
cartoonish to almost lose a little bit of the the weight of
this film? Because there is a part of the
Christmas joke that isn't just me, not totally, I guess,
getting the old caps happy Christmas, Merry Christmas
thing. But it's also a part of me being
like, well, this is now getting into such an elevated place,
especially toward the end of Sean 10 when he's like smoked
out or gassed out in that room where I'm like, this is getting

(01:06:41):
to a Tarantino space or kind of like the edit the end of
Eddington space with Astor that I feel to be sort of a cop out
politically with other things this movie was trying to be
realistic about. Does that make sense?
No, that makes sense. I think like kind of what you're
getting at is. It's a healthy question I'm
asking, or an observation. Yeah, I think what you're

(01:07:02):
getting at is like maybe two things, which is 1.
Like I think it it was effectivein terms of like how PTA you
normally addresses men with power.
So like, I don't know that he has another mode totally.
Like if you look at Philip Seymour Hoffman's character of

(01:07:23):
him, like, you know, the the famous line, like I'm a doctor,
I'm a nuclear physicist, but above all, I'm a man.
You know, he's self mythologizing, right?
And then also when we look at like a Daniel Day Lewis, who is
maybe his most like serious character within this like kind
of fold, but it's still absurd, right?

(01:07:44):
And still has a lot of like absurd dialogue and how
seriously he takes himself and how he makes himself into a
mythic figure also. And and same with like Phantom
Thread or something. But I do think, yeah, but I
think you're, you know, you're maybe getting more so out.
Like he does have a different mode.

(01:08:05):
If we look at something like Boogie Nights, where in the
second-half we really flip to like a serious, yeah, like
tragic kind of lens that's a little bit more serious and we
see stakes, right? But I, I think, you know, in
this movie, like you are right to the extent that the movie
kind of wants to have both things, but it's giving people

(01:08:29):
here's here's I guess what I'll say like, yes, the movie is
doing interesting things within a blockbuster, but it's also
giving people the opportunity like that.
I've heard for for critics and like larger audiences to have an
out of to say this is just a dadand daughter movie.
And so like when then the humor like or whatever is like behind

(01:08:51):
the humor that is like actually politically important to deliver
in a movie like this. If you're, you know, playing in
this territory, If that doesn't hit, then like it maybe should
have or hopefully it should havelike made people uncomfortable
instead of like making it just humorous, like maybe you were
missing kind of mistakes. And I and I agree with that, I

(01:09:14):
think. It turns into an Austin Powers.
Yeah, I think ultimately like the IT was successful and
disarming, right. The the kind of like ideology
you're like pointing to the absurdity in it.
But yeah, the fact that we kind of end up you're right in more
of like a Tarantino hyper elevated space of this like

(01:09:35):
secret office. The the stakes aren't like
totally there by the end. And it does become more of an
emotional film with like Leonardo Dicaprio's character
and Chase Infinity's character. And so like, I think, I think
you're just maybe recognizing that you like wish maybe the
stakes were like there throughout.
Or yeah, that and I I love all the points you said about Philip

(01:09:58):
Seymour Hoffman's character and the master and Daniel Plainview
too, because that's who I was assuming was behind the door
that was controlling the Sean Penns and as far as like.
The you wanted like the mattressman, you wanted the person
behind the scenes. Yeah, and they gave us the
person behind the scenes, but usually the movie's tone is
built behind the person around the scenes, so that makes sense.
So the whole movie's tone of APTA Project is usually matching

(01:10:20):
the people behind the scenes. And the fact this movie takes
you into another world and showsyou this kind of like absurdity
of those who have power, I thinkis the is the easiest thing to
do when writing. OK, yeah, that's fair.
Yeah, to make like a silly secret society.
Yeah, You know, and I guess I'm only saying that because I was

(01:10:41):
so emotionally torn up by the Benini Seo Del Toro's characters
arc in this movie and what, you know, he's doing to protect his
community. That when I'm going from that,
that's like making me cry in thetheater to then these guys and
and their L Bean fits like talking about different ways to

(01:11:01):
to keep America white. Like I just I found that to be
like kind of jarring and it didn't allow me to fully commit,
I guess, to the comedy of it. So I think that was an aspect to
of me not fully connecting. I might be by myself on that,
considering the reviews here. I have this at 4 1/2 stars in
letterbox. And that was really the only
reason besides the Tiana Taylor stuff that we already discussed.

(01:11:21):
Yeah, just because I'm not sure how I feel about that.
I have to watch it a second time.
Yeah, I would say, I mean it's hard because I think it's a like
a, it's a five star in like PTA,like in in being successful at
certain things PTA is really great at.
But as a full movie just like ina vacuum for me I think it would

(01:11:42):
be like a 4.5 also. And some people listening about
who fucking cares about stars? And I hear you.
The way the world works today, let's go to Benicio Dotoro and
his character. He's kind of the real adult hero
of the movie. He represents the most
contemporary struggle, the most realistic and realist struggle

(01:12:03):
the United States is going through to this day and and for
the past few decades especially,which is an an attack on the
immigrant population in the United States.
And I think that is the strongest emotional and
political through line of the film.
And it's one of the reasons I think the humor didn't land with
me with the the white supremacist elevated aspects of
the movie. And it begins in the very first

(01:12:23):
act when Tiana Taylor's character is mapping out the
detention Centers for the French75 to target.
And we see kind of like her going in with her team and and
getting the soldiers, you know, in the zip ties on in this
concentration camp and releasingall the people into this van,
getting them to escape. And it's a sequence, you know,

(01:12:44):
that really hit me hard and and left me with a lot of emotions
that I didn't get a release fromyet until like the middle point
of the movie because I was taking it a lot.
Because the fact that as soon aswe see the back in cross
community attacked in the halfway point of the movie when
Sean Penn's military goes in there, I'm realizing that I'm
like in a $150 million blockbuster that is willing to

(01:13:07):
stage attacks on these ice like concentration camps, showing
migrants, showing asylum seeker,showing people of color as the
ones most brutalized by Americanviolence.
And that felt really transgressive for me as somebody
watches movies a lot and like has a podcast about it because
we're talking about so much thatwe just did in our mailbag.
What is the responsibility of movies when ultimately they are

(01:13:30):
products and as much as we want them to be art, they are
commercial products to a certainextent.
And it's something that we grapple with all the time on the
show and how we give more of a responsibility politically to
movies that cost more money because that's just the way our
capital estate works. And So what was so strange about
this experience? Was it none of the none of the

(01:13:51):
the movie that is picturing the people being detained or being
held captured by the American military and government felt
opportunistic to me. It all felt like really nuanced
and thoughtful and rooted in therealities of families are being
caged or surveilled or displaced.
And the image in the middle of the movie with Bisseldo Toro
where he's got his like home, like carved out in his apartment

(01:14:14):
or whatever it was, where he's got like 6 families staying in
there and he knows everyone's names and he's like introducing
everyone to Leo Dicaprio's. He's walking through the room.
I thought was just like a reallyimpressive portrait of the
backbone work of like actual like revolutionary work and what
that looks like on the ground. That was just so that was so
well thought out for me. And I heard that Benicio Latorre

(01:14:36):
had a part in writing that, which is incredible.
Yeah, apparently he when he showed up, he was like, here are
all the things like this character should do.
And they were, they originally only had like a smaller part for
him and they like took that and like really fleshed out his
character. Yeah, well, I could tell which
parts were written by PTA. Like obviously Benicio Latoro

(01:15:00):
playing a karate instructor. The karate instructor is very
much PTA coded. Boogie Nights.
Dirk Diggler. Oh, sure.
And then the idea of him as a community leader and a
protector, like, I'm sure that was more Del Toro's, you know,
input on the script. But I just thought was like, so
emotionally powerful, like watching him move refugees

(01:15:21):
through tunnels and raising red flags with coded language.
And the woman who was working the local store, who was like,
housing migrants above her storeand then again, letting families
live in his home. It is like the literal inverse
of Pat Pat or Bob's characters like half hearted.
Kind of like bumbling revolutionary gestures where you

(01:15:42):
have Del Toro's character actually getting to do the like
or willing to do the dangerous like self sacrificial exhausting
work and you have DiCaprio watching Battle of Algiers
getting high at home. I just thought that
juxtaposition was really well done.
I agree and also as he's going through right, I mean, yes, his
daughter is missing. So you like you understand why

(01:16:03):
he is so fixated on like charging this phone and there's
a lot of comedy with him, like trying to find an outlet to
charge this like phone that he he doesn't keep charge because
he never thought he would need. That's kind of like that's but
that's also like, right, a comment on kind of like his
privilege and distance, right atthis like point in his life or
maybe kind of like always like looming right where he didn't

(01:16:25):
think he'd need the phone. And he's also so focused on just
his life or just his daughter inthat moment.
And so like I think that is likevery purposeful there.
And I just, yeah, I mean, I think when PTA is showing
families hiding in plain sight or you are seeing how Benicio

(01:16:45):
Del Toro's character is like casually weaving political
action into his daily life, knowing he probably has a family
too. Where white people in America
give themselves such excuses when they have families to like,
not be politically active anymore and to, like, justify
self-interest. I thought was the most powerful
theme of the movie because it really spoke to what PTA was
trying to say to give me a language about what he was

(01:17:05):
saying about white fathers in particular in America.
I mean, I guess I like, I don't know why, but as soon as we go
up upstairs above the store, I guess there's a variety of
reasons, the imagery that we've seen on our phones to what
people have seen in real life orwhat they've been going through.
But seeing people like sleeping above the store and hiding out
just like made me start crying in the middle of the theater.

(01:17:26):
And I don't know if everyone hadthat experience, but I was just
like devastated. I think it's just the past few
years, probably especially or this past decade in the Trump
era in America. And also, we moved to Denver,
Co, like a couple years ago, where I teach, and it's become
one of the relatively few spacesin the country where refugees
and asylum seekers can come and get an education.

(01:17:48):
And so maybe seeing that more upclose has also affected my
experience with watching this movie.
But seeing that kind of grassroots care on screen about
people helping people really made an impact on me in a strong
way. And I don't know if I'm giving
too much credit to Anderson. That's why I'm speaking a lot
about Del Toro cuz. Cuz apparently that was his

(01:18:09):
addition to the. That was his addition.
I think the performance is like the best shit I've seen from him
since probably Sicario. Yeah, I think so too.
You know, he was great, Venetian's game.
He was great Venetian's game. And I think that there was a
moment that they put in the trailer but felt very like Wes
Anderson or just very like absurd when he goes into the the

(01:18:31):
stairs right underground and then the the carpet kind of like
are the rug rolls, right? It felt like very like carefully
put and like loved it. Just a Wes Anderson sequence.
Yeah, a great kind of clip to put in the trailer.
But I wish I didn't see it in the trailer because.
Hard movie to market. Yeah, the trailer is actually
don't tell you anything about this movie.
It's fascinating. Definitely.

(01:18:51):
But I mean, I can understand like with given, right, the, the
stakes of these scenes, how maybe you, you felt like, OK, I,
I'm not like asking to see a different movie, but I am maybe
like thinking it would be interesting because I think that
we know PTA does have some sort of language, right, That we've

(01:19:13):
seen and like there will be blood, for example, even though,
I mean, he's like kind of using a novel to like draw on, but to
give the audience some sort of language of like, it's not just
that this like Christmas adventure club is like just
these stupid people. It's like, what are what?
How is this actually being, likemaintained and how is this

(01:19:34):
actually, you know what I mean, like kind of giving a language
to that. It would maybe be helpful, yeah.
I think the left has learned anything in America over the
past 10 years is that you can't just reduce conservatism to
idiocy or it's deeply naive and we've lost in many ways because

(01:19:54):
of that. So yeah, I think that's what I
was worried about when I saw that joke.
I was like, not only is that easy, but it's like one of the
reasons we are where we are and one of.
One of the reasons this movie isexploring what is it is
exploring. So it felt sort of contradictory
in that way. Yeah, but I think, you know, we
talked a little bit about this in the the car.
So I don't know if you want to hit it here or as we get like
deeper into the plot. But you had a really interesting

(01:20:15):
take on the duality, I guess, ifyou will, of the Leonardo
DiCaprio figure and then the Sean Penn figure, especially as
they are kind of both essentially, you know, there's
this question around like, who is?
Who's the father? Yeah, the father.
Yeah. So we basically see Regina Hall
take Willa to a church. Yeah.

(01:20:39):
Regina Hall, by the way, we can get to her now.
It's kind of cross cut throughout the movie, her having
a conversation with Willa, and it seems to be the same
conversation. It's cut a few times where
there's images of her talking toWilla and telling her about her
mother. Yeah.
And then you never really see the full conversation.
And then as Sean Penn's militaryhones in on where this church
is, we see Willa and Regina Hallacross one another talking at a

(01:21:02):
table in the church. And you realize that's really
the conversation we've been at that's been cross cut throughout
the film. And then and then I had the
realization of oh, Regina Hall'ssequences of this movie where
she's like probably at the church like training with Willa
had mostly cut down, which is really tragic for me because I
was actually deeply excited to see what Regina Hall would be

(01:21:25):
like in the PTA world because she's one of the funniest actors
of her generation and is also not going to been given the
opportunity to play more complexdramatic roles.
We just saw her in the movie Master three years ago, which is
an impressive indie horror film from first time filmmaker I
think Maria Ma Diallo. I believe in that movie there is

(01:21:47):
a scene of one of the young actresses who Regina Hall is
playing opposite of who is goingthrough a house party and
they're playing Chuck West's Mobamba.
And Mobamba also plays in this movie, which I just wanted to
throw out there as PTA might have saw Master.
So I recommend people check out Master.
I think that song though was used to greater effect in in
Master because. It had like a.

(01:22:08):
Like a racial commentary to it, which is fascinating.
But, well, you were asking me about the fathers, right?
Yeah. OK.
So essentially Willa learns the truth of her mother's like, kind
of selling out of her team. And then Lockjaw at the same
time is trying to prove that he is her biological father.
He comes to do Adna test. And I think it's a, a duality of

(01:22:33):
white fatherhood that PTA is exploring here where Bob
DiCaprio and Lockjaw Pen are twosides of the same coin, kind of
white fathers torn between theircomplicity and also their
resistance and kind of bound by their whiteness, no matter of
their intentions. And so you have Sean Penn who
leans into his whiteness, willing to like sell his soul to

(01:22:55):
create this ethno state as the head of the military.
And then you have Leo DiCaprio, who also feels a lot of guilt
for his whiteness and then becomes like the 6th man of a
revolutionary group. And then also because of his
privilege, is able to kind of check out and clock out while
his comrades are killed basically in action.
And I thought that was a really brutal but honest political

(01:23:20):
metaphor through those two characters about how apathetic
and delusional they both are. And there are more similarities
between those characters. And I think a lot of people are
going to walk away with the movie from.
I thought it's a good take. So I want to throw that out
there to people to to wrestle with and let me know what you
think. Just because I kept thinking the
whole time, what is up with thisbiological father thing?
Like why? Why did he?

(01:23:41):
I felt like that Tiana Taylor having sex with Sean Penn was
really forced into the screenplay and I was trying to
wonder why would he do that? And he, I think he really.
Just yeah. Why would he have like the Leo
character in the Sean Penn character in conversation of
like this fatherhood theme? Yeah.
Like basically he was like, how can I create the conceit that we
might not know who will his father is?
And I and I didn't like how he forced it in, obviously with the

(01:24:03):
Tiana Taylor character and we already talked about that, but I
did, I did appreciate how he wastrying to explore how white men
in this country are sort of indifferent no matter what
political side they're on because their status will be
protected. So there is like kind of a built
in ingrained indifference, even if you have the most leftist
white man who's a part of a revolutionary group versus the

(01:24:24):
most like militant far right ethnocentrist white man.
And that kind of through line ofwhiteness and in the power that
it has in the United States, I thought was like well observed.
From PCA, yeah, they're like cashing in on their their
capital like and whiteness and in different ways of like being
either apathetic and rationalizing their distance,

(01:24:44):
right. And kind of like having this
narrative of like now too much is at stake and protecting like
their own nuclear family verse. The the like Sean Penn
character, which is obviously like we already talked about.
He is kind of like self mythologizing that we've already
talked about as a through line of other men.

(01:25:07):
Maybe in in PT as filmography ofbeing this like in his mind, a a
war hero or that he has to make certain decisions to keep his
status. And and obviously he doesn't in
like a more I just in a heightened way with both, but
especially Sean Penn's characterand also kind of like
incorporating things about that character, taking himself so

(01:25:31):
seriously and the Christmas adventurer so seriously, Right.
And like the the tight shirt, like, you know, question like
how he he carries himself. Yeah.
Sean Penn good in this movie. I think so.
OK, a lot of people are saying great in this movie.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think so in the role he's asked to play,

(01:25:53):
he's like this really interesting like festering kind
of wound of of like insecurity where he really does do a good
job. I think of having this like
masculine front and but at the same time a really portraying a
really like weak follower. Yeah, I, I guess this is what

(01:26:17):
I'm wrestling with with this whole movie, is there are parts
of this movie that I really think are powerful and there are
other parts of this movie that feel in a very non PTA sense,
feel sort of like in a differentmovie.
And I hate saying that as like, he's one of my favorite
directors, if not my favorite director.
And that's not in in PT as skillis being able to feel like

(01:26:39):
you're in four different movies.But he built a world in which
they can all coexist. Yeah.
And I think he did that here. So I'm not saying he didn't do
that, but I guess the like heightened this of the Sean Penn
performance. Does, I don't know, make me
wish. I guess I wish we just got more
of the movie within the movie, which is the Benicio de Toro,
which is kind of frustrating to me.
Or just more of the Leo DiCaprioand Will maybe the last of that

(01:27:01):
first 40 minutes and maybe a lotless of Sean Penn in this film.
It felt way too Tarantino for mein the middle of the PTA movie.
That. That's fair.
Yeah. I think it was like interesting
the characters he decided to focus on that don't normally
feel like the the characters that he does because he's more
so like highlighting the humanness and like the tragedy

(01:27:21):
underneath, like a Daniel Plainview that are also like
Christmas adventures. But he's not doing it the same
way here, You know what I'm saying?
Like so yeah, I I think that that's an interesting point and
I kind of agree because it's weird, you know, we're we're
going back and forth here. Ultimately, it's it's a
successful, you know, PTA project in the tone he's able to

(01:27:44):
capture and having it be this like epic journey, but and an
emotional journey too, and trying to have Leo get to his
daughter. And then also kind of like
reflecting on sort of in the ways that you're talking about
the the father figure that he isand like not being ready or like

(01:28:06):
the kind of being able to live in a place where or like a mind
space where he does feel like he'll never have to know the
password, right? Or have the phone charged.
But but at the same time like itis a movie.
He talked to him on the phone where he's like, listen man, I'm
going to find out. Comrade Josh.
Yeah, or something, Josh. Yeah, get a new name.

(01:28:28):
I love how he like is basically like, can I talk to your
manager? And he he says like he's gonna,
he says some sort of code, right, That you like pulling.
Yeah, that all sequence is really funny.
And I, I think I already said Dog Day Afternoon was like an
inspiration for Leo. And I'm assuming PTA like told
him to watch it as well when I talked about the big sequence.
But I can't remember if I mentioned that he had said that

(01:28:52):
he specifically watched Dog Day Afternoon a lot because he
wanted to capture what Al Pacinowas able to do with the phone
calls because that movie like runs on phone calls.
But you can go listen to our DogDay conversation because that's
like one of my favorite movies all the time.
But yeah, like that, that was all funny, but ultimately it is
playing in a a different world than PTA has maybe before and

(01:29:15):
what he is focusing on in in terms of like contemporary
issues and like so directly. And so while, yes, like, we can
point to point to examples and say, like, I'm glad that he was
able to include, you know, this in a blockbuster movie
essentially, or just like a high, you know, budget movie.
But at the same time, like here is maybe where he took the foot

(01:29:38):
off the gas and it's OK to pointthose things out too, like in a
movie that is looking at the issues that it is.
Speaking of taking your foot offthe gas, one of the coolest
sequences of the movie is Willa being chased down by one of the
Christmas elf assassins. You deemed him an elf?
She stops. She goes over the hills like
we're in a Mad Max movie. The camera's like in the front

(01:29:59):
of the car connection sequence. It's really dope when you get to
see an IMAX. I'm sure it was like an out of
body experience for so many, butit was still cool in our in our
theater. And when she gets out of the car
and runs to the hill and he crashed into it and then she
shoots him, I was like, this is awesome.
Like this is like a No country for old men sequence.
It feels like something from a Cohen's movie honestly, in terms
of like action comedy. Or are there other great

(01:30:21):
sequences in movie too? And Benicio pushes I almost said
Tom Cruise but pushes Leo out ofthe car and he says No Fear like
Tom fucking Cruise. Which is obviously fun because
of the Tom Cruise character in Magnolia, but also that, you
know, there's a moment in this when will at the very end once.

(01:30:41):
Yeah, once one of the one of themost interesting characters in
terms of foresight that PTA likewasn't able to see Internet
personalities completely, you know, flourish at that moment.
But what ATJ Mackey might be today?
What's scarier is that those personalities are relevant
enough then in 1999 for him to make a main character in his

(01:31:02):
movie about that. Yeah, open your books to page
36. Yeah, do not respect woman.
Yeah. We'll definitely talk about
Magnolia on our Boogie Nights and there will be blood and
hopefully one day do it on the Patreon.
But but what was I going to say?Oh yeah, yeah.
There was a moment where Willa right at the end is like, say

(01:31:26):
the code, like say the the password because like, I don't
know who you are at this moment.And for whatever reason, because
Tom Cruise's name had been dropped in that moment, I was
just thinking how funny, like the taking off the Leo mask,
It's Tom Cruise. Like, because just because she
was like, I need to know your actual identity.
Yeah. But yeah, a lot of great scenes,
yeah, when we have Leo, like reluctantly leaping from the car

(01:31:50):
right and not and essentially being like pushed out.
PTA hasn't jumped over a lot of shit in this.
Yeah, and we didn't. Talk about the the kind of like
protest sequence, right where wehave also like the the
militarized, like police right in this like gear.
Also have someone it's suggestedlike planted in the protesters

(01:32:14):
to then like incite violence. That's right.
I forgot about that. But we have that back-to-back
with Benito del Toro, like taking Leo through to get a gun,
to escape, to charge his phone. But then one of the the best
sequences we didn't talk about was like Leo being led by these
like guys who are skateboarding,right?

(01:32:35):
And you're right, that is like. Like 3540 minutes of the movie
when Leo escapes in that dungeonunder his house, around dungeon,
but the hole under his home, thetunnel, yeah, tunnel and gets
off. He's like running.
Around in his own home. Yeah, running.
Around the soccer field, gets into the community, goes to
Benicio's. Like her?
Well, I love. Also that he has a big back rack
and a very tiny backpack, meaning that he packed that when
they moved there when she was very young, but hasn't even like

(01:32:58):
touched those backpacks since because that, you know, there's
not 2 like adult sized backpacks.
It's like a tiny backpack that he hasn't even like thought of.
It's just been like stowed away.Oh my God.
But yeah, it's. Actually a Robin Williams role.
It's just a strange role that he's playing in this movie.
The just the tenderness. Yeah, it's a hard thing to nail.
Sorry. Go ahead.

(01:33:20):
But when he is jumping over all this shit, I like, OK, we're
only 30, right? So like we're obviously still
young, but OK, we're feeling ourknees at this point.
We talked about IMAX experiences, the the Christopher
Nolan Imax's of like the three hour long movie sitting in a
seat without a recliner, right? Your, your knees are killing

(01:33:42):
you. And to watch Leo just like jump
at like half the speed that all these like young guys are as
they're leaping over roofs and ships.
That was so funny. And and and then ultimately when
he falls from the. All on his.
Face he goes to the app through the the trees and just like you

(01:34:04):
really feel like when he hits onthe.
Ground I feel like is PTA playing in multiple world or
multiple movies in the same world that can coexist without
having to go to like there is anunderground golf simulator where
like 4 old white fascists are like running the country
secretly like I that does that make sense?
I don't want to harp on it but does that make sense?

(01:34:24):
Like it feels like you can stillhave Leo falling 40 feet face
first on the ground and getting up and being OK relatively
without going to that extreme anyways.
But. We also have them, him in the
hospital. I think we may have touched on
it. But the idea that, like, Benito
del Toro has like, friends everywhere, which you whispered

(01:34:45):
over to me, like, Andor, Right. I have friends everywhere.
Yeah. And the the nurse comes in, is
like, takes off his cuffs. You're going to go down the
hallway, go through the fire escape.
And he's like, so confused now. Do you guys have free Food
First? And he's also, I'm like, he must
have cracked a rib or something,but.
Benicio, which is honestly hit me hard as I have a case of

(01:35:08):
Modello downstairs. So Benicio just like handing him
two Modell's as he walks into gets into the car.
I was like, that's yeah, that's great.
I love how he's like, like how he's like just thanking him like
he's just in such shock because he like is not like thinking
about the next thing. He's just.
What was the quote Leo said in this movie where he told his
daughter he's like, I've been drinking and driving forever, I.

(01:35:29):
Know I love that sequence at thethe beginning when she's like, I
don't want to babysit you, you know, and he goes from like
being really defensive and really annoyed He's like I yeah,
that was really funny when he's like, what are you talking
about? I know how to drink and drive
right? But he also then immediately
when she I forget exactly what she says, he goes, you know
what? You're right.
Like I'm going to shut the fuck up.

(01:35:50):
Like I you're actually right. And like I need to reflect on
what I'm doing and like, I want you to never like hold anything
back for me. Yeah, Yeah, it was a good
moment. Some other things we forgot
about were just the the coded language of this film.
I know we talked about the code stuff over the over the phone
that, you know, DiCaprio is going through.
But there's another guy who hands a guy on the French 75 who

(01:36:11):
hands DiCaprio those two devicesfor one for him and his daughter
Melody. And he comes back later in the
movie where he's like sitting ata radio broadcast and they show
how he just is like has a day job, but he also goes to give
people cards, I'm sure to help them.
He's like helping different people who need help, I guess.
And he goes home to like do his little podcast, But he was like

(01:36:32):
a political podcast talking about how, you know, we need to
fight back against the state. And these two boys are hanging
out on the side as they watch one of the the the indigenous
cops. Basically, he like comes, I
don't know what his role is. I don't know if he's a cop or
not, but he's basically like AI found it like an assassin.
Yeah, it's it's suggested that he's like a a hit man that's

(01:36:54):
like hired by the cops. Right.
And he's a really cool character, which we really need
to talk about because he comes in and tries to help Sean Penn
take Willa. And then when he takes Willa, he
immediately feels like a type ofguilt because she's a kid.
But also he sort of has a breaking point when he drops
Willa off with these other assassins.

(01:37:15):
Yeah, I heard someone say in like a review that the that
group of assassins were called like 1776 or something.
I don't know if that's true. Oh, interesting.
Oh, I think Sean Penn did say that.
He said drop him off at 1776. Yeah, yeah.
But I, I love that moment again,people helping people about this

(01:37:35):
guy being like, fuck this shit. Like, I'm not doing this shit
anymore. This is like madding.
Like, I'm not going to like, sacrifice more people of color
in this disastrous country. So like, I'm going to actually
go in there and kill the 1776 guys and then let Willa get out
of here without even knowing her.
I just thought that was really bad ass and just it's it's said
a lot without saying anything. The dialogue.

(01:37:56):
And that's just like a feat of this movie that I wanted to
highlight. It's really impressive.
But that you were talking about the the boys outside of the.
So those two boys see that that cop come in and like take the
guy in the broadcast and they take him away and the boys run
into the house and they send their own coded message out to
anybody else listening. And I thought that was really,

(01:38:17):
really cool. Again, going back to like how
there's like this inherent vice quality to this movie of like
where the master of what is whatis real, what I'm watching
because they don't show anythingtoo surreal again, up until like
we have the the Christmas people.
But like, yeah, I love that moment.
That was great. Yeah.
And then I guess while we're naming things that we forgot to
talk about, there was that really funny scene where Leo

(01:38:39):
goes high to the parent teacher conference, right.
That was good. And he's like, you got to like
teach the right history. It's important like.
As a as a history teacher, I usually have the opposite
happen. He's like, hey, make sure you
teach the right history because I'm not seeing a lot of the
right history on these walls. Yeah, yeah.
I'm like. That exactly, but you know,

(01:39:03):
there's also like and of course,like in that sequence, he it's
interesting. I don't think people would like
necessarily pick up on this, buthim telling the teacher like,
you know, you need to teach thisinstead of like actually
understanding the institutional like inter workings and power of
how curriculum is is decided on.And then teachers are kind of

(01:39:24):
like put in a position of like needing to meet this curriculum
as we're seeing like all over the US right now of suppressing
what can be taught in the classroom anyway.
But it kind of like does add to his distance of like actually
understanding like what's going on totally.
But but I I like that scene. It was funny and.

(01:39:47):
I mean, it's also just a showcase for Leo.
It just starts crying in the middle in the middle of this
conference where it turns into like a therapy.
Well, I love how like she has a,you know, like an adult to an
adult. It's like, I can see this is
like very emotional for you. Are you OK?
And then also, I guess while we're, you know, talking about
the, oh, we didn't talk about the the kind of like car chase

(01:40:08):
sequence as much when the elf shoots Sean Penn in the face,
that was like, whoa, you know, because I didn't expect him to
come out of nowhere. That's when we learned he was
the assassin. Because the Christmas.
Adventures he was. Just alive, walking around.
And then also Leo pulls up on that, thinks that his daughter
is in that car, right, and dead and doesn't realize there's that

(01:40:29):
moment where you're like, Oh my God, when he passes his
daughter. Yeah, I hate that trope in
movies. I hate when Breakers just miss
each. Other I thought it worked.
It does work, it's just one of my least favorite things.
Yeah, and then but the the wholelike car chase sequences we're
really well, it's something thatwe're done really well.
It's not something we've seen PTA really do right.

(01:40:50):
I know in there was a cut scene from buggy nights that I haven't
seen, but I guess we'll watch before we do the episode with
the a car crash. But I haven't really seen him do
like a a car crash like this before where you know, chase
Infinity like stops the car there's.
A moment there's a. Huge like Fender Bender right
where she's like waiting to shoot him.

(01:41:11):
Yeah, there's a moment, licoricepizza, where Alana is with
Cooper's, like driving the car down.
Oh yeah, and Bradley Cooper's inthe next seat as well as he's
trying to flirt with Alana. Well, also though like like when
they're when he's chasing them too, right.
They're like escaping. Oh yes, yeah, Bradley Cooper is
a is an underrated kind of like Philip Seymour Hoffman presents.

(01:41:33):
Actually, yeah, he he's like playing a mattress man level.
Older line like BDDL kind of actor he can bring he can bring
the Daniel Plainview to some movies.
Yeah. And so I yeah, just all the all
the car crash sequences were were great or like car chase
sequences. And especially when at the very
end when we have Chase Infinity and then Elf and then Leo

(01:41:58):
behind, you know? I like how he's just become Elf
I. Just can't see him any other way
now. 2 hour pod. And then obviously like the the
very end, you know, where we have Sean Penn's character kind
of like getting this corner office right?
He is inducted what he so he thinks right into this group.
And then there there's this justempty fucking office in an empty

(01:42:21):
office building. And I think, you know, like more
and more like since 2020. And we have like work from home,
right? This kind of like absurdity of
this image, right, of an American dream of getting this
corner office. So you can sit your whole
fucking life from 9:00 to 5:00 in a in a square box.

(01:42:44):
But at least you have a view of the window, you know, like, and
at least you have power over people at your at your job.
Like that absurdity in that moment where he puts his feet up
on the desk. I thought was really like, well
observed, you know? But then he's just like, killed,
right? Kind of interesting that this
movie, The ending of this movie was borderline the same as the

(01:43:06):
ending of Eddington. Yeah, yeah, we talked about
this, you know, on that episode too.
But I think it may be like a a generational kind of issue may
be going on here in terms of like Ari Oster and then PTA
including humor around disability in their movies as

(01:43:28):
just like a very strange like I I don't know how else to put it.
Maybe besides the the idea that like in both movies, at the the
end of the movie, it's framed aslike these people like got what
they maybe like deserved throughthen like being disabled.
Well, yeah, it's not malicious intent targeted at someone with

(01:43:50):
disabilities. It's just going back to your,
But you just said it is saying these people got what they.
Deserved using the idea yeah that like people with
disabilities are other are seen like as like undesirable or
different like in society and then like putting that into your
movie as to like characterize A villainous figure, which I just

(01:44:15):
think is like it's not even me being again like some people
might hear this and think it's like AI guess snowflake.
I would say 90. Percent of people will hear this
and think that, yeah, I, I thinkthat it's such a, a low, like a
shallow, yeah, like form of humor that isn't, I don't know.
I just think it's like, gross tohear people laugh at it in the

(01:44:35):
theater. It's for people who think, like,
early 2000s comedies are five stars.
Yeah, Yeah. And those people exist and they
make movies and they're in the audience.
So like, yeah. And just my my last thing that
we haven't talked about is I think his name is Tony Goldwyn,
but he is one of the Christmas adventurers people.
He is the president in the TV series Scandal, which I watched

(01:45:00):
basically all of while I had a concussion once in college.
And I just want to shout him outand his casting in this because
I feel like he has such an interesting presence that
similar to how Martin Scorsese really used the coach Taylor of
a Kyle Chandler in his, you know, Wolf of Wall Street, which

(01:45:22):
is so funny. He was playing opposite Leo that
this character in this casting was really, really well thought
out. Can you remind?
Me of the guy who plays Jared. I forget his last name in
succession, but he's good. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 'cause he
has this like dog. Sling Neoconservative.
Yeah, there's something about like his bone structure, you

(01:45:44):
know that like. But it's also a little sneaky
'cause he is very hot, so you'rekind of like, oh, I can see how
this could be deceptive. It's scandal.
He's pretty hot. I mean, not him and Kerry
Washington are like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, extra credits to 1
battle after another. I guess I'll go first 'cause I
know sometimes you don't preparethese.

(01:46:04):
I That wasn't meant as a shot. No, I totally forgot.
Go ahead. You should make yours a duality
of the Father's. I think that's a good.
Yeah, I guess Hate. That not everyone would
immediately pick up. Yeah, I guess I already said the
duality of the Father, so I'll keep that.
But I also want to add that I think this movie's incredibly
important right now. And even though we've had

(01:46:25):
criticisms on this podcast, that's no normal for our show.
We have criticisms and movies that we love or just like or
just like whatever across the spectrum.
But I think this movie is incredibly powerful and
important and going to be cathartic for a lot of people
because of the kind of collected, defeated attitude so

(01:46:48):
many of us have toward the country right now and the ways
that we're all seeing, like fascistic tendencies in our
government, in our market. And I think the idea that we are
seeing a movie in the mainstreamthat cost $150 million, that is
about the power of community andsmall acts that hold people

(01:47:09):
together in this major blockbuster.
Where the final line from the father who's indifferent and
apathetic to his daughter, who'snow like this, you know,
headstrong possible revolutionary figure, where he's
like, be careful on her way to. Oh yeah, I forgot at the end
that we forgot to mention that that she's like on now the the

(01:47:29):
radio like wavelength and now taking calls right to go like
out to help. Yeah, and he's like, be careful.
And she says I won't. Oh, she does.
And pick that up. And I was like, oh, that's
pretty awesome. And I, I think a lot of people
need that right now in a time ofcensorship, in particular across
the country, I think a lot of people need to hear something
like that. And even though this is a

(01:47:50):
commercial product costs all this money, these are
millionaires making these thingsare millionaires profiting off
of them. It is one of the most accessible
and universal pieces of art thatwe have today.
And I can't think of a better theme or through line then kind
of collective interest to put ina movie in the United States
right now. And so in a time where we're
like lauding Oppenheimer and Barbie as being these great

(01:48:12):
political pieces of entertainment, this was a true
political piece of entertainmentthat I think is superior to
those other two movies. And please don't come for me
about Oppenheimer in the comments.
I like, I like Oppenheimer and Ilike Barbie, but I like this
movie a bit more. So yeah.
Yeah, OK. I think that's a a great point.
Great extra credit, my extra credit, which I did forget about

(01:48:36):
and it's only the, you know, thename of our podcast, but is
Benicio del Toro's character. And I guess by extension, like
his input in the movie then, because I didn't realize that he
like had such a say or creative input on his character and
really like flushing out what what he was doing because PTA

(01:48:58):
said that he was really just like a maybe a smaller role.
And Benicio came in and was like, here, it's actually like
what this character is about andhow he's kind of like a hero and
helping his community. Which is arguably the most
important sequence of the. Movie And I think, you know, we,
we have to come back to what we talked about on the Erin
Brockovich podcast, which we know is also a commercial

(01:49:19):
product and like very much in the vein of kind of a contained
90s exploration, although I may have been made in the 2000s, OK,
whatever. It feels like the 90s, but OK,
still feel like the early 2000s,right.
But what we talked about in thatepisode and I think, you know, a

(01:49:40):
rally and cry for this podcast is hot people help people,
right. Like, and so I think, you know,
we obviously need more of that in movies.
And I I just think that his you're right to point out that
his stretch of the movie and hischaracters actually like the
most important in kind of givingus also a lens into the the

(01:50:02):
distance that Leonardo Dicaprio's character was able to
have in terms of him having the title of saying like he keeps
introducing himself as like one of the French 75.
But Benicio del Toro's characters like, obviously like
doing the work, right. And so, yeah, I think that's
like the best sequence, best character in the movie and

(01:50:25):
overall, you know, to to just close out here.
I I really enjoyed the movie. I think I enjoyed the Christmas
adventurer like kind of joke a little bit more than you.
And but I under I totally understand your critique and I
think listeners will as well. But will they that's.
The last question I was going toask you because even though I

(01:50:46):
find this movie to be deeply moving and entertaining, are
people going to be pissed off bythis episode?
Oh, that we're criticizing APTA movie?
Yeah, maybe. You know, this is like our
director and he's made some of our favorite movies.
Yeah, to those people who have acriticism, I would just, like,
invite you instead of leaving some sort of weird review that's
all about you. Because like, we honestly don't
like, we care if you want to have a conversation, but we

(01:51:08):
don't care about your critique if you're like being strange and
like. Conversational criticism being
about like, why? You are right.
Then go start your own podcast. You know, Best Best Buy does
sell mics, Best Buy and you knowa bunch of other places sell
mics, but. We heard of such a bad podcast
on the crisp pizza that we were like, we should go make our own.
And so if you heard such a bad podcast today on one battle

(01:51:29):
after another, make sure you leave us five stars, leave a
review, follow the Patreon free member, never listen to the show
again, and go make your own show.
You're welcome. Yeah.
And I, I guess just like a, a last a few things before we head
out. I think I was talking about like
the Leo and PTA interview, but Ididn't, I think I mentioned that
it was on the big pick, but I just wanted to like also, so

(01:51:51):
people knew where I was like getting some of those quotes or
talking about like Leo, you know, making certain like
observations. I was, you know, talking about
it from Sean's conversation withLeo and PTA, which was really
cool that he was able to talk tothem.
We're actually going to have Sean on the pod later this year

(01:52:11):
at some point when we can figureit out.
But yeah, so, so excited for that.
That's also what we have like coming up in the future on, on
the main feed for new listeners.You know, we do have the Phantom
Thread episode. If you sign up for free on
Patreon, you can have access to that.
And then of course, check out 1001 if you haven't already.
Our conversation with our Trace conversation with AB Rockwell,

(01:52:34):
because that's a really underrated movie, I think.
And and Tiana Taylor is like performance and that is so
amazing. And if you like movies about
revolutions, and I'm thinking about this because Tiana Taylor
is like one of the the up and coming even she's already been a
star before being an actor, but like up and coming like powerful
black actresses in Hollywood. If you want to see a movie with
powerful black actresses, black actors and made by black film

(01:52:56):
makers, that is like this movie in terms of revolutions, watch
Judas and the Black Messiah, which is one of the great films
of the twenty 20s. That is about a lot of the ideas
in this film. That was a movie I thought a lot
about while watching this movie because a lot of credit that's
going to this movie actually wasnot given to Judas and the Black
Messiah. Because I think actually during
pandemic, you know, Judas and the Black Messiah, while it's a

(01:53:17):
different movie and it's not really like, you know, playing
in a a humorous tone does a lot of the same like issues or
topics in this movie, but better, right, 'cause it's also
like a drama and it's able to more seriously tackle it.
But yeah. Chaka King hasn't made a movie
since 2021. Studios, I know.
What are we doing? OK, we'll be back soon in a few

(01:53:39):
weeks and we'll see you probablyfor Luca Guanino episode.
Depends on how we feel about that movie.
I don't know. We'll see.
But we'll have horror October coming up, lots of stuff coming
in October, but we will see about that movie, yeah.
Alright guys, that was the extracredits of 1 battle after
another peace out. No Fear like Tom Cruise.

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