'Barbarian' with Writer/Director Zach Cregger | Re-Release for 'Weapons' - The Extra Credits

Episode Transcript
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(00:17):
Yeah. Thanks for coming on.
Oh. I'm, I'm, I'm so happy to come
on and talk to you guys. I, I really enjoyed your
podcast. It was.
It was so fun to listen to. You do.
Are you rolling? No.
No, we're we're good. It's we're recording, but we're
not going to use this you. Can you?
Can I? I don't know if you want to feel

(00:37):
free to put the gushing in, but yeah.
Oh, it's so awesome. We we loved your movie so.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Let's start. Let's start 'cause there's stuff
I want to just go ahead and divein and start, start saying first
to kind of prime the conversation.
So if it's cool, like let's begin.
Yeah. OK.

(00:58):
So, so it's so funny. I was listening to your to your
your short one. Then I listen to your long one,
which was so flattering by the way, that you guys even put the
energy into to discussing this movie and the terms you did.
And there were some things that I thought you really got like
that you really picked up on that I thought were really
astute. And there were some things I
thought that were kind of big that that I thought I was
surprised that you guys didn't. And and that's, you know, fine.

(01:25):
And then, and then I think that there, there's like a
conversation, The reason I wanted to even come on here and,
and, and, and like, you know, kind of have this, this
conversation is because what I think is, is interesting is like
there's so many things that I think are undeniably present
that we're not intentional or even cognitive.
What am I trying to say? What is the word I'm looking

(01:46):
for? Cognizant.
I was not cognizant of as the time at the time that I was
doing the writing. So there's, there's a, there's a
anyway, there's a couple of different frontiers of this
conversation that I think are are, you know, should be
explored. But yeah, anyway, not to just
dive in and just take over your podcast, no.
You're fine. First of all, we appreciate you

(02:07):
listening in the 1st place. Our listeners have loved your
movie. It's been like, it's, it's been
a really good movie year. But in terms of commentary and
like what you're talking about in terms of some of the things
in the movie that we might have picked and picked out of your
consciousness or maybe we projected onto the movie or the
intentional things that we missed or didn't didn't get.
There's been so much to talk about.
And that's just made like our movie year so much more fun.

(02:29):
So First off, thank you for making the movie because it's it
really is amazing. It really was my pleasure.
Thank you. Yeah, I actually want to start
off by asking you, how are you feeling about the big picture
guest appearance and CR Chris Ryan saying what he did about
your movie? I'm not sure if you heard what
he said, but he compared your time jump at one point to a

(02:52):
Quentin Tarantino moment. And I, when he said that, I was
thinking, wow, if I, if I made my first real feature because I,
I know you worked on other projects, but I heard you say
that, you know, you refer to this is like your first major
feature. If I heard Someone Like You know
Chris, who we love as podcasters.
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of those guys.
Yeah, he, when he compared you to to that Tarantino moment, and

(03:13):
then he talked about some of thethemes in your movie too, like
he referenced gentrification andwhite flight and whether those
things were intentional or not or like toxic masculinity, like
him just picking up on those things.
I'm sure that was like getting the most like validating stamp
of approval ever. I mean.
I, I, I, he's not saying that I'm of the caliber of Quentin
Tarantino. He's saying that I used a device

(03:35):
that is reminiscent of a device that Tarantino would employ.
So I, I receive it in that spirit, right?
I did listen to it, you know, and you know, I, I, you know,
this week I'm just letting myself be a total narcissist and
just like you should, it's not going to last.
Like it's not going to be like this next week, you know?
And so I, I'm going to just liketake the week and soak it in and
listen to the things that are good and affirming and ignore

(03:57):
the things that are not and, andbe a little bit of a psycho for
a while because it's a ride and I, and I'm happy to be on it.
And so anyway, so I did listen. Yeah, well, we're not, you know,
be a narcissist, I guess 'cause we're going to be talking about
the movie in depth. No problem here.
Alan Dalts I and I'm not normally like this, but, but I
feel like this week, no, let's just go.

(04:18):
You know, I've worked for two years on this thing and I, it's
really fun for me to be able to talk.
You deserve all the success right now.
So I guess Kelsey, I mean you probably I I feel like the toxic
masculinity part is probably where we want to start with the
men in this movie, because this movie to me felt like the best
horror movie with commentary is such a like such something as
strong as toxic masculinity sense like a Jordan Peele's get

(04:39):
out with what that commentary was about or Ari Astra's
hereditary. Like it's up there for me
personally. And I think Kelsey like really
touched on a through line of themen in this movie really well.
So I think we might want to start there.
Yeah, sure, if you're cool with starting, you know, with the
with the toxic masculinity, the men.
Yeah, I, well, maybe not even toxic masculinity, but I just

(05:00):
noticed the three men a lot. So I kind of wanted to talk to
you about that. Something I loved obviously was
that the mother wasn't the, you know, villain, even though it
was the monster in the basement.And I think, you know, I thought
that the monster in the basementwould be the one creating
obstacles for tests. But actually it's the men in the

(05:21):
movie who are continuously, you know, creating obstacles for
tests. And, you know, obviously Frank,
who is who created this like hell dungeon, you know, in his
past crimes, but also like Keithand AJ in different ways, right,
continuously bringing tests backin.
And so I, I think I wanted to, to kind of pick your brain about

(05:42):
what, whether there was a connection between Keith, AJ and
Frank, because I think a lot of people are coming out of the
movie and they're like, I'm, it's so cool that we were
subverted, that mother's not thevillain.
But I was wondering if I haven'theard as many people talk about
the connection between Keith, AJand Frank.
And if you were kind of like thinking, are these characters
connected as you're writing? Is that something afterwards you

(06:04):
kind of noticed or? I love, I love that you're
thinking of it that way. And, and on your episode, you
guys talked about mutations and,and we'll get into that, but I
think the, the, the concept of amutation is very important to
this movie. And the title is directly
addressing the concept of mutation, and we'll get into
that later. But yes, in my mind, in a very

(06:25):
David Lynch kind of a way, AJ and Frank are the same person.
And there's little things that I'm doing to try and
subconsciously reinforce that. And for example, when we meet
AJ, you know, where is he? He's at the beach, he's in front
of the ocean. And what is what is what in
Frank's room under the house? What is in there?

(06:46):
There's a giant beach, oceanscape along the wall.
And we're listening to Hawaiian Music.
And I'm trying to just connect them thematically, visually,
audio wise. I'm trying to just like
establish a little bit of a link.
No one's going to notice this stuff, by the way, everything
we're going to talk about. And I feel like this is really
important for me to say. I don't hair if anyone ever

(07:06):
notices these things are not I I, I really mean it when I say
like, I don't want this movie tohave an agenda.
This movie does not exist to like to to, you know, make
people change their thinking on any of these things.
I love that there's conversations to be had.
But first and foremost, this is a horror movie.
It's fun. I want red America.
I want blue America. I want everybody to experience

(07:27):
this in a positive way. I'm not trying to come down on
anybody, you know, but I do think that, yeah, of course it
is about toxic masculinity to a degree.
That is all there and gentrification.
All those things are there now. I'll do a little teaser here
real quick. What the movie is about to me,
what it's secretly actually about to me is something that no
one will ever, ever know. And that's fine.

(07:50):
I'll, I'll tell you at the end of this podcast, but it's.
OK, it's not, it's not like. A secret, but it's it's like
it's the kind of thing that I this movie is written about
something very real for me, but it's no one could no one could
pick up on it anyway. We'll get to that, but.
I'm excited. And also, so you know, we, we
know the movie is, is, we know you're not intending to create

(08:12):
any kind of like divisive film by any means.
It's like a horror thriller genre movie that you're, you
know, you're kind of developing A commentary throughout asking
interesting questions because every director we've had on has
interesting questions. It's just yours.
Have had us do 4 hours worth of podcast on because we love the
questions you're asking. I love it.
But Frank, Frank and and and AJ and Keith are spect they're all

(08:37):
on a spectrum, right? Frank being the crystallized
version, the purest version of apredator with 0 empathy
whatsoever. I mean, he, he is a shark, you
know, and my conversations with Richard Brake, I had to watch
the man who wasn't there. And we talked about like, you
know, just just an absence, you know, of, of, of an inner life.
And so that's why he really doesn't do anything.

(08:59):
You know, he's just a a great one white shark.
And so AJ is is more of a human than Frank is, but he is on that
same spectrum. You know, AJ is has no
awareness. You know, really like he is he
is a predator in his own right. And so so when when AJ sees, you
know, what Frank really is, whenhe sees the the videotapes, you

(09:21):
know, he's confronting himself in that moment.
So I'm really glad you picked upon that.
I also think you guys picked up on a great thing that Keith is
not a great guy, you know, like we're about.
To. Talk about that like he is a he
is not a toxic predator, but he is also like, I don't think he
has an awareness of his own effect on women.

(09:41):
You know, he is saying inappropriate things.
He is, he has, he might have thebest intentions, but he is, you
know, you picked up on this. You know, he's injecting
sexuality where it doesn't belong.
He he's doesn't take her seriously when she tells him
what she sees. And if he just listened to her
and respected her, you probably would have survived, you know?

(10:02):
So I, I wanted to talk a little bit about Keith because I
thought it was so interesting. A lot of people left the movie
saying like, oh, we were subverted.
You know, Keith wasn't the killer and we have a.
Lot of comments, a lot of listeners bring that up for
sure. Yeah, which is great.
I mean, I would have gone to seeBill Skarsgard be a killer in a
movie anyway. I mean, but but I yeah, I wanted

(10:23):
to kind of get your thoughts on Keith too, because, you know,
he's not committing any crimes like you said, but he's still
connected to the other men in a way where I haven't heard a lot
of conversation about, right? Like he's not letting her leave
the basement and. Blocking her and wasn't looking
to cast someone who was physically over, you know,
capable of overpowering her. And I put a lot of energy into

(10:44):
the blocking when she comes out of the room and he's
sidestepping. Like, that was such a crucial
part of that scene. Like he is he is like he's kind
of gaslighting her in a little would not really I that's not a
fair term. I don't think he's gaslighting
her, but he's he's he's doing everything he can to make her
second guess her own instincts and to physically stop her from

(11:05):
leaving the situation. And that is really terrible
behavior and it's not appropriate and it's it's bad.
Yeah, he doesn't. Put hands on her and stop her.
He's not going that far, but youknow, he's not, he's not a St.,
you know. Right.
Yeah. I was wondering like kind of if
you while you were writing, if you were thinking of these,
these questions with Keith, because in the beginning, you

(11:27):
know, as we're suspecting him, he he has kind of has this like
benevolent sexism. You know, he has these like
cringy phrases about his upbringing.
Well, he says multiple times, not even up for discussion.
Like, what does that mean? If that is not like coercion,
you know, that's terrible. Not even up for discussion is
like you can't enter into any sort of a relationship with
that, you know? Yeah, wave it on my upbringing,

(11:49):
you know, but he's a chauvinist and and somewhat of a benign
chauvinist, but he isn't. He is a chauvinist.
Right. Yeah, He's kind of getting at
that idea of like protecting women, you know, that's men's
role. And so I was wondering kind of
what you thought about if peopleare leaving the movie and saying
we were tricked. You know, Keith is a good guy,
but you kind of already talked about it and that's.

(12:11):
OK. You know, that's OK.
Like if somebody takes that awayfrom it, it's like, then it
worked. I mean, the movie is a trick.
You want you want to think that he's a monster.
And I wouldn't, I wouldn't categorize Keith as a monster at
all, you know? Right.
He's just on the spectrum of of like the kind of events and.
Everyone is. I am.
I'm on the spectrum. You know, I'm not a perfect
person. I think, I think it's, we all

(12:33):
fall into the spectrum to a degree.
You know, he's just, he's, he's,he's on it.
Right. I think, you know what's funny,
we transitioned to AJ after Keith's death.
And I think before I even get toAji really want to talk about
Detroit and Frank and what they symbolize.
Just because I I feel like that's been in my mind, that's
been probably a thing that I satwith me the most in that time

(12:54):
jump, that time sequence, which is interesting because I think
audience's favorite sequence of the movie is the transition from
mother to AJ. So the transition from mother
killing Keith to AJ and Justin Long's famous singing at this
point in the car and the theaterreaction for us, which I don't
know if you've been lucky enoughto like sit in the back of any
theaters recently in this film. But like the transition from

(13:18):
screams to laughter is I I don'tthink I've ever experienced
anything like that. I've experienced obviously like
screams and or laughter, but notthat quickly from one another.
And so it does seem like people love that sequence, but the
really pivotal sequence for me is that time jump to Frank
because there's a couple different things.
So we hear on the radio. So you listen to the podcast,
you know, we talked about the Reagan era America of it all and

(13:42):
audiences having a lot of built in historical context with what
you're showing on screen. And my mind was jumping to just
things I knew. And this like horror movie where
I probably shouldn't be think inthe average genre movie.
I should probably shouldn't be thinking about the history of
our country in this way. But I was thinking about the
white flight. I was thinking about black
families migrating to Detroit from Jim Crow.
SI was thinking about the Reaganomics of the 80s,

(14:04):
destroying the city, the de urbanization and de
industrialization of it all. And just kind of like even
thinking about like the Americandream and the eradication of the
middle class in a horror movie. Like this is so abnormal from
what I'm used to. And like, while I'm thinking
about all the history in the middle of this horror movie, we
learned that Frank is a serial killer, a serial rapist.
And I feel like that's asking meas the audience to try to

(14:26):
connect, or at least that's where we went with it.
We connected like the Reagan era, the Detroit, the Frank of
it all and it led me to wonder and it has, I think over these
podcasts we've done like was that how intentional was it to
connect the Frank of it all, theDetroit, the Reagan era, because
it's so incredibly well written and peppered throughout to allow
people to kind of watch the movie and be like that time

(14:48):
jump. That was I love how they kind of
got away from the normal three act structure.
It really threw me off. It was just such a good horror
movie, but it also allows audiences to be like, what else
was this like writer trying to say it?
Is there something intentional there with those those three
connections? OK, so a, a note about
intentionality. And, and so I, I write, I, I

(15:10):
read David Lynch's book Catchingthe Big Fish.
I don't know if you're familiar with that book.
OK, but he talks about a processof writing that he uses.
And I use the same process and, and what it generally yields is,
is, is opaque meaning. And the process is this, it's
through Transcendental Meditation, right?
So before you write you, you, you do TM and you, you, you

(15:33):
essentially turn off your conscious brain and you, you,
you amplify your subconscious. And So what I do is I'll
meditate and then I'll write andI don't know what I'm going to
write. I really don't.
So I wrote barbarian completely intuitively.
I didn't outline it. I never knew what was going to
come next. It was a very subconscious
writing process. Now, not to say I don't go back

(15:54):
and, and, and revise and take things out and put things in.
I do. And it's, it's, it is thoughtful
to that, to that degree. But like most of the movie was
written from a subconscious place.
Now when when I when I don't want that to, to imply that I
don't care about these themes being in there because quite
frankly, those are in my subconscious.

(16:14):
I'm a very, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a socially tuned in person by
nature. I think about these sorts of
issues frequently day-to-day. So they're in my subconscious.
So they are coming out, but I'm not necessarily thinking now
what I want to say about DetroitAnd I really want to connect the
the sexual predation of men to white flight.
Now there's a there's a sequence, the original scene of

(16:37):
the draft when when of the script, when Frank comes home
from the from the woman that he is like he is, you know,
unlocked her window and we see what his intentions are.
He has a long conversation with his neighbor Doug.
And the original draft was Doug was fretting about the white
flight that was happening and hewas telling Frank he's like over
in, you know, Canoga, they have this, they, they do what's

(16:58):
called redlining. And and Doug is like, you know,
we can, we can talk to the banksand and we can, you know,
there's a pressure that can be exerted on who gets loans for
these houses. And he's like, I would rather
live next door to an empty housethan and he uses a terrible word
that I won't say it starts with an S, not an N, but still
nonetheless. And he's like Frankie, but we
really got to get in line on this thing.

(17:18):
But you know, because it's goingto be too late soon.
So it was very much, I was driving home even more to the
point like that sort of social political exodus or whatever I'm
trying to say now. I changed it.
And so then what we shot, that scene extends and instead of
like getting into like racial politics, he follows Frank to
his door and and this is what weshot.

(17:39):
And it'll be out there on a deleted scene one day where he
and he accuses Frank of stealinghis dog many years ago.
And it's more about gender. He's like, my wife wants me to
ask you. I tell her she's crazy.
She's got it in her head that she, she woke up in the middle
of night and she thinks that youtook our dog.
She's I told her she's crazy. And what he's doing is he's

(18:00):
minimizing his wife's truth. You know, he's he's throwing her
under the bus and he's very gently asking Frank.
And Frank never answers. Frank doesn't deny it or
anything. Frank, just like she says, I
took your dog. He's like, I told her she's out
of her mind. He's like, oh, never mind,
Frank, you're a good, you know, And he'd like he he backs out
and he goes, he goes home. And I was, I wanted to keep it

(18:21):
more on theme of like, we don't believe women, you know, men
give each other pass. This is why AJ, when he sees
Frank in the basement, his firstimpulse isn't like, obviously
you did this. His first impulse is like, are
you OK, man? You know, like the cops only
really listen to Tess when she says there's a man being held
hostage. Then they're like, well, we may
as well go check it out, You know?

(18:41):
So, so I was, I, I decided it would be better to use the
energy of that scene to, to riffon the theme of the film rather
than dive into like the, the, the racial, you know, disparity.
So anyway, so that that scene's not in the movie anymore for
pacing for no other reason than pacing.
It was time to get back into thehouse.
Yeah, that was so clear to me, too, when when Tess was in the

(19:04):
basement and then, you know, Keith is outside and he's
laughing while she's crying. What the?
Fuck yeah. Which by the way, you know, so
much of Keith is how I would have reacted.
You know, I I tried and test, bythe way, is also me like I write
all of these characters are kindof just what would I do at in
this situation? So I don't want to say like
Keith is this monster. I probably would have behaved

(19:26):
very similar to how Keith does throughout this movie.
And we're not saying Keith is a monster either, it's just the
subtle things that you're touching on that make people
uncomfortable about like a traditional version of
masculinity for sure. Yeah, like the minimizing, have
to go see for yourself that, yeah.
So it is incredible though, thatwas you're talking about this
meditation writing that you wereable to kind of get all because
I mean, being socially consciousis one thing, but fitting it

(19:48):
into a horror movie and layeringit throughout this without, you
know, obviously some of it is like very conscious, but like
otherwise it's kind of incredible that you're able to
do that. So it's like it is very
interesting that I think that somany people are going to project
the history of this time and eraonto the screen just by saying a
term or concept just like Reaganera or like people are going to
just put so much on the movie from that.

(20:10):
Yeah, that was so smart on your part.
Like, I mean, because it gives us so much to think about and it
makes us kind of like also just like go back and remember what
wasn't that long ago because even just kind of like seeing
that from the movie. I'm like doing research and I'm
thinking like. You know, we're we're both
teachers too, outside of doing aCollider and and doing this too
and trying to spread awareness of our favorite films.
But you know, just kind of like,I guess re engaging with the

(20:34):
fact that Detroit was once one one of the wealthiest cities in
the in the world and then looking what happened to it and
the way it was manufactured in that way.
And just so, again, so interesting that that kind of
connects to, in our minds at least to like what Frank is
doing as a response to. His I agree with you.
Changing. 100% I agree with you.To me, when I think of the
Reagan era, I think of a gigantic false narrative.

(20:57):
I think that that was a, a, a regime that like sold the world
a bill of goods and like we still are living under this
false narrative that like RonaldReagan was like a good president
and like, think he was like arguably the worst president
ever. Like, and, you know, there could
be a case to me, like very recently we had a worse one.
But I think Reagan really like really crashed the car and

(21:19):
people still don't even realize it.
And I think there's a gas lighting of all of us about what
happened in the 80s. And like we were sold out, like
America was sold out in the 80s,like major and we convinced
ourselves that it was this like wonderful healthy time.
And it was like, no, that was like the domino that that fucked
everything in my mind, right. So I do think it's appropriate
to like to connect these these themes of like gaslighting and

(21:42):
like AJ's whole thing is, you know, what does he say to Megan
on the phone? People can have different
versions of the same thing, you know?
And that's that's, that's comes true at the end when he throws
Tess off the tower and he's like, you're OK, I'm saving you,
you know? Yeah, you started to slip.
I didn't even let go. Like, that's that's just one
more example of how he has he has rewritten history to to his

(22:05):
own convenience again and again.So I think that the Reagan era
is the perfect backdrop for thatsort of a thing.
And sticking with AJ, actually going back to that mutation
word, because I think a lot of people have been talking about
mother still. I mean, people are getting it.
I think in terms of the villain,like I've seen a lot of articles
written about it, a lot of explained deep dives about it.
I've already seen YouTube essayson it, like people are on top of
mother and the kind of intricacies there and we'll get

(22:27):
to her. But what's interesting about AJ
is going back to that mutated word is he kind of acts as like
this mutated version of Frank. Like it really, we talked about
this a lot on the pod, but just like the fact that AJ is
basically a gentrifier as a Detroit landlord, like someone
who we think is like bought property that we assume to be
like foreclosed properties. And but we slowly find out he's

(22:49):
the sexual predator and Frank being a rapist himself.
And they're both connected in these behaviors.
So is, was AJ like kind of an amalgamation of like people?
Cuz I've heard he talked a little bit about who he might be
based off or characters or people in your life and just
kind of like trying to connect people in your life to the AJ.
But more importantly, I think, or more interestingly, not more
importantly, but more interestingly, is AJ sort of

(23:10):
like this kind of deeper throughline of a mutation of Frank that
you were trying to capture on screen for audiences to pick up.
I think that I I think I realized later that if AJ and
Frank were the same, I don't think I wrote this clearly, you
know, consciously that they werethat they were the same.
They're not the it's not like lost Highway where they're the
same person and as 2, but it is but that, you know, they fit

(23:33):
together just like actually, I think AJ and Tess are twins.
You know, I don't know if you heard me talk about that.
Another. Point.
But but yes I I do believe one is the negative of the other.
She is a a woman with who has touse hyper awareness to be on
guard against predators and he is a predator with no awareness,
which is why he's measuring instead of, you know, terrified.

(23:55):
Right? Where was I going?
What was your initial question? I.
It was just like, I guess connecting AJ and Frank really
just kind of like the mutation is more like I I kept struggling
to say on the pod like I was wanting to say evolution because
like I like we've said, already established, like Keith isn't
necessarily the same toxic predator that Frank is.
Neither is AJ, but there is thiskind of like this kind of like

(24:16):
progression, but really it just feels more like a mutation
because they're all, I mean, AJ specifically is very like a
disgusting human being. But it is an interesting
mutation from Frank just cause of the connections that they
have being a part of, like, Frank being a part of Detroit,
which is like being economicallysegregated.
And then you have AJ doing what he's doing as this landlord,
buying up properties across Michigan, which I'm supposed to

(24:37):
assume are probably foreclosed properties.
And then the fact that they're both sexual predators.
It was just interesting. I didn't know how much.
Yeah. Kind of these like behaviors,
behaviors that are spanning sentlike decades, centuries, yeah,
decades. Yeah, they, yeah.
And of course that that is intentional.
They must be the same to that. I mean, AJ must meet himself
down at the at the depths, you know?
So yes, that's, that's all. That's all correct.

(24:59):
Yeah. I just wanted to also say I
loved a JS writing. I I thought that, I mean, the
tape measuring scene is my favorite scene in the movie.
I mean, it's really iconic. Yeah.
It was such a fun theater experience too.
Like everyone was just laughing so hard and they were like
loving it. And they're like, what am I
doing? This is a horror movie.

(25:19):
But I, I, it's not really a question.
I just wanted to say that I think for his character using
comedy, it was so smart because it gets at the idea of his
behaviors being so absurd in ways that sometimes drama even
can't. And I felt like, you know, his,
his self serious, you know, ourself more concerned, you

(25:41):
know, behaviours when he's in the Airbnb and he's like
flipping everything. He's like, dude, you know?
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's just Justin being
phenomenal. You know, Justin's so great.
And I think all of that was written.
I don't even think I realize howfunny it could be until you give
it to somebody like Justin who'sjust like that funny, you know?
And so thank God I got him. Oh, my God.

(26:04):
Yeah. Yeah.
OK, so here's another one that that I, I, I, I, you guys kind
of touched on, but I think that we missed a couple of things in
your podcast. So let's talk this snake.
Right, OK. Oh, we're getting there.
The snake, because I was going to pull that up.
All right, all. Right.
So you know, when we meet AJ, he's singing the verse of a

(26:24):
Donovan song and the and the verse, it's a song called Riki
Tiki Tavi, and it's about a Mongoose who kills snakes.
And the lyrics are basically like when I was a young man, I
was led to believe there were certain organizations that would
kill my snakes for me, like the church and the school and the
government. But when I got a little bit
older, I learned I had to kill him myself.
OK, so so that is that is an important little thing.

(26:47):
Again, I don't think anyone willever put these pieces together
and that is fine. This isn't this is just me being
a pretentious writer with way too much time on my hands.
But but OK, so now I have established tests and therefore
women as the snake, right, because I put there's a you
know, her car. We know we're in test world when

(27:07):
we see this snake pen pendant hanging from her rearview mirror
and when we establish we're backin the house, we start on that
snake pendant and we rack to AJ parking.
That's how we know we're back inlike in test world.
So I'm I'm trying to whatever like the idea would be that
women represent the snake. Now, the interesting thing about
that for me is that in the Mongoose and the snake, right,

(27:30):
the snake is the prey and the Mongoose is the predator.
But we all know that snakes are inherently dangerous things.
And in this movie, it's like theconversation on the couch, you
know, where Bill saying that to her, like, you know, or she's
saying to him, like, why is it always the girls that can get
their heart that get their hearts ripped out in these
things? Obviously she's talking about
horror movies. She doesn't know it when Bill

(27:50):
says girls can RIP, trust me, he's foreshadowing and he
doesn't know it. You know, they're both talking.
I'm talking through them. They don't know what they're
talking about. But like, you know, but we're
I'm trying to just subtly reinforce women as prey, women
as predator later. And so then when Tess enters the
hunting ground, what, how does she do it?

(28:11):
There's a little Mongoose on that shelf and she picks the
little Mongoose up and behind itthere's a snake cord.
And she pulls the snake and thenwe enter the, the fucking.
Now we're in into the combat zone.
And what is it? The snake that we think is the
prey is actually the predator, because it's the woman that
comes out and annihilates Keith.So that's that.
Now, again, this is just me being an idiot and it's stupid,

(28:33):
but like, that's, that's what's going on.
So that's, that's the snake stuff.
It's fun for me. It's it's weird.
It's created like I feel like 7 different experiences people can
have watching this movie which. And no one will ever happen.
It's amazing. That's crazy.
I didn't. OK, you want to get real crazy?
Here's a real crazy one. OK, so the title, right?

(28:54):
And this is riffing on the mutation idea, the copy of a
copy of a copy, you know, And the more you copy something, the
more genetic mutations you get. The mother is literally, you
know, you know, metaphorically she's the physical manifestation
of like decades of abuse and neglect and like ignoring the
trauma that you inflict. And that trauma lives under the
house. It never goes away.

(29:16):
It festers and it builds and becomes more powerful.
So that's what she is, you know,metaphorically, physically,
she's a genetic mutation. And the title is a, is a
mutation, you know, barbarian, like the letters are just an
anagram of Airbnb that you have just grown and injected and
messed around and scribbled it up and Airbnb barbarian.

(29:37):
Now it gets weirder, right? So the address of the house is
476. Barbary 476 is the year that
Rome fell to the Barbarians. I'm sure somebody has probably
brought that up to you. It gets weirder than that.
So the word barbarian, do you know about this?
Do you know the origins of the word barbarian?
OK, It's an onomatopoeia, and it's a pejorative that the
Romans used to mock. I think I'm, I'm going to get

(30:00):
this right. I think it was the Gauls, right?
The French, because they thoughtthat their language sounded like
someone going bar, bar, bar, bar, bar, bar, bar, bar.
So they called them Barbarians. Barbarians, right?
All the mother says in this whole movie is ba ba ba ba ba ba
ba ba. That's.
Another fun little little Easteregg that that that exists.

(30:23):
That is an incredible Easter eggbecause of the amount.
I mean, I teach social sciences in high school.
And so the amount of times that I've explained the bar bar, bar
joke. Oh, really?
The barbarian. Yes.
In class to your kids. Yeah, to to the students and to
the fact that I just did not pick.
That's a it makes this movie. That's what I'm saying.
It makes this movie special because of all this different
layering of commentary or like just observations, questions

(30:46):
you're throwing in there. It's so cool.
All right, now here's the craziest part, right?
So this this is actually the craziest thing.
I didn't know any of this stuff.I didn't know any of this stuff.
I just wrote from the subconscious.
So like, I didn't know 476 is the year that Rome fell to the
Barbarians. I didn't know that the word
barbarian was an onomatopoeia that was like used to to, you
know, ridicule the people. I didn't even really know that

(31:08):
the word barbarian was an anagram of Airbnb.
This is just stuff that just came into the script and I take
no credit. It all exists.
You can, you know, I now I don'tknow if it came from my
subconscious and that was insideof me and I put it in fine.
Are we all just sitting here over analyzing stuff?

(31:28):
And if there's every movie you could probably find things like
this in, I don't know, I think that's actually the most
interesting thing of all of this.
Because when I've learned that 476, which by the way, my RIP
reel for this movie, which I made like a year and a half
before I made the movies up, it was still 476 Barbary.
There was something special to me about that number.
I don't know why. I don't know what it is, but how

(31:49):
bizarre that of all the numbers I could have picked, I picked
the one that was acutely linked to the to Barbarians.
It's bizarre to me. It's bizarre to me.
And I think that like, especially David Lynch, you
know, like his movies are, are so fertile for the same stuff.
I could talk to you guys for five hours about Mulholland Dr.
and what it means. Yeah.
And and it's like, that's so great.

(32:12):
So. But I bet you David Lynch would
probably say similar things. Like.
I don't. I don't really know.
Like, I don't judge. I don't care.
Like, that's that's what makes it so cool.
So. And I don't know.
In a way, when we find, you know, film makers that we are
really interested in, it's oftenjust their subconscious that
like, we're seeing on screen. And so I totally get that.
I mean, we were talking to Helena Rain for her film Bodies,

(32:35):
Bodies, Bodies that came out recently.
And she. We had a very similar
conversation to, like, a lot of things that she's, like, talked
about, like even just like in her mind that just find their
way on screen. And Jordan Peele's talked about
this with Note because there's so much different iconography in
that movie. That's definitely intentional.
But there's other stuff that people were just pulling out of
it. And he was like, sure.
Yeah. Like that sounds good.
And that's just so funny that that's that's the case with the

(32:56):
with the surface. I don't know if that's
disappointing or not for you guys.
No, no. It just, I think it makes the
creator all the more interestingbecause there's a lot going on.
Yeah, I feel like, yeah. And especially I think with the
serpent, 'cause I almost don't want to.
And then I guess we can go to our next one, 'cause I do have
an interesting question. Are you even?
Yeah, Well, I, I just wanted to kind of know 'cause you've

(33:16):
talked about the relationship between different characters
like the men or Tess and AJ. But I wanted to know if you were
thinking while you were writing or maybe after the fact, the
relationship between Tess and Mother, just because, you know,
they have similar, you know, they're both trapped in the
basement in in certain aspects, right?
Like obviously mother has a a brutal life and it's kind of the

(33:39):
subversion of who as a, as I read it, like subversion of who
the barbarian is right, because we first think she's the
monster, right? But mother's life is brutal and
you know, she survived in this basement.
And also we have the loop of the, the breastfeeding video,
the baby video in in the basement where she's been

(34:00):
trapped all her life. And I couldn't help but make an
A connection there too, between just suburbia and and the right,
the like TV that we see on loop of like advertisements, things
like that messaging. And then Tess is, you know,
trapped in the basement in otherways when she keeps getting let
down. And at the end, I especially the
second time I saw that when Tess, you know, I had to shoot

(34:23):
mother, I felt emotional. And I was wondering if that was
something that you that you focus on as a scene and and what
you were thinking about as the relationship of between Tess and
Mother. So thank you.
I, I love that you brought that up.
So that that is a very intentional, very conscious
thing that I'm doing. So, so, you know, you probably
notice that Tess is getting all these phone calls from Marcus as
she's, as she's arriving at the house.

(34:44):
And so there's actually a deleted scene.
Yeah. But before I get into the
deleted scene, you know, when she's on the couch talking to
Keith, she's explaining that shehas this toxic relationship that
she's in with her boss, you know, and and you know, he's
mansplaining to her how like, you can't be put into a role
that somebody else picked for you.
You have to you have to, you know, pick for yourself.

(35:06):
And if you have to like move on,then maybe you need to move on.
And and she says, my problem is I just keep going back.
You know, I just, I just keep going back.
So that's her deal. And then the next day on the way
to her job interview, she makes this phone call to Marcus, who
is her boss. You learn.
And he is having an affair with her.
He's like steps out from having breakfast with his wife and
kids. He's like, what the fuck?

(35:26):
Don't call me. And she's like, I'm I'm in
Detroit. I'm going to this job interview.
I won't be at work today. And he's very upset.
And and he convinces her on thatphone call to like, what, you
know, do the job interview, but come back and like, you're going
to see me and I need you to promise me you're going to come
back. And she says, I promise I'll
come back. And she cries at the end of
that. Georgina did an amazing job.

(35:46):
And so we we just learned, like,we just kind of reinforced that,
like, Tess is not taking agency for herself and her
relationships with men. She's allowing herself to be
subjugated and like put into a role that she did not choose.
And that is her journey that sheneeds.
Right. And what is the most extreme
version of that the most? The most extreme version of

(36:08):
being subjugated is to be infantilized.
And so she is literally infantilized by the mother.
She drinks the baby bottle. She is a baby, you know, she
behaves as a baby. This is not a role she wants.
She is not allowed to be more than that.
And so the mother is like the calcificate, the the the most
the most crystallized I guess isthe word I'm looking for version

(36:31):
of what she needs to confront, just like Frank is the most
crystallized version of what AJ needs to confront.
And so the last thing that Tess says to the to the mother before
she pulls the triggers, I can't go back, you know, So I'm
echoing her dialogue from the couch like this is her journey.
This is what she must do. She has to she has to like
separate herself from the possessor, as it were.

(36:52):
So that's that's what's going onwith her.
That's that's why the end to me,the mother is is an echo and is
another version where the motheris, you know, she belongs to
Frank. The bell in the in the catacombs
is the most important prop in the movie, you know, because
because it is the power dynamic.You know, Frank pulls the
string, the bell rings and the mother comes and and bring some
food or does what he needs. And so they just she's afraid to

(37:15):
go to his door. You know, she backs away when AJ
is going to open it. So it's like I'm trying to just
I'm trying to with very little real estate.
I need to paint what their dynamic is.
And so, you know, the idea is that, you know, Frank clearly
has the control and the mother doesn't.
She's not allowed to do anything.
She's been infantilized by him. You know, I think you guys might

(37:36):
have talked about it on your podcast, but you know, we
research feral children, right? And like, and so, you know, the
idea is that if you don't connect those neural pathways
with language before the age of 2, they'll never connect, you
know, no matter what. So if you don't, if you're not
exposed to language before 2, you will be a monosyllabic
person. You know, even even though
you're intelligent, you, you cannot communicate verbally.

(37:57):
And so he denied her that, you know, the only, the only model
she has for behaving at all is his horrific violence.
And this videotape that she's watched, you know, ad infinitum,
you know, her whole life. So, so she's a binary, she
exists in smothering love or like over overwhelming
aggression. And so that's so she and Tess

(38:17):
share that same sort of relational DNA.
Does that make sense? A completely, I think Mother
Mother will be the most memorable character I've seen in
a horror movie in a long time because I think of that
subversion and all the context you're talking about.
That's like deep in her character.
I want to get to 1 more symbol before talking about anybody

(38:38):
else because I I'm I feel like I'm going to forget this.
And it kept popping up throughout the movie and both
watches and we talked about it quickly on the podcast.
But teeth? It's so funny, you know, the 1st
tattoo I ever got was a tooth tattoo that I did myself with
like a stick and poke needle when I was a teenager.
And it like, it's weird. I, I have no idea.
I didn't think about teeth in this movie till I listen to your
podcast. I was like, oh, I guess there is

(39:00):
a lot of tooth stuff in there. So there's a tooth AJ is
flossing and, and there's the toothbrush on the floor, which
is just like, that's what would be in the bathroom.
So that I didn't think about it deeper than that.
There is the, the tooth ad that I wrote in the car for the, the
commercial. And that's, I mean, that came
from me. That's I, so it must be there.
Yeah. I have not consciously thought.
Got to put teeth in this movie alot.

(39:22):
So. So for whatever that's worth.
No, again, I think it's. Subconscious impulse, but I I
had not considered it. That's great.
I mean, again, like that kind ofsubconscious stuff is so
incredible because even like even in the ads, did you write
the used car ad too? OK, Wow.
OK. Just kind of representing the
time. That was, that was.
Really great. I have to ask too.

(39:42):
And this might be giving too much away.
I don't know. What if you want to give certain
little things away? But like, even the convention
that Keith brings up, that's in town.
Medical thing, he says. Right, yes, is is that something
that we're supposed to because it's they're all these like
things Pepper throughout the beginning of this movie,
Kelsey's extra credits of your movie was like basically the
first act, but that kind of likethe discussion, the dialogue

(40:04):
between. Teeth and test was like so
incredibly written, but like even something small like that.
The medical convention. It was such a moment where I
think everyone in the crowd would have been like where
before that happened. I think they would be like you
should just leave. But then that seems so seemingly
innocent, but at the same time it's still in the back of our
minds. Is there a medical convention?
Is this guy just trying to use like his, I guess his like

(40:25):
masculine traditionalism to be like you just need to stay here
where you're safe. Is that is that like in you
writing it where you actually thinking there is a?
Liberal when I was writing it, the truth is I thought he was
lying. I thought he was the bad guy, so
I'm writing him bad, you know, so yeah, I thought.
But when I finished the script, I realized he he wasn't.

(40:46):
So then I kind of retroactively decided that he was he was not.
So I don't know. You know, one thing when I
talked to Bill, one thing that Bill was really excited about
was the idea that like, you know, Keith wants her to stay
the night. You know, he doesn't want to
like come on too strong and likefreak her out the door.
But like he's thinking this girl's hot like this could go my

(41:07):
way like this. Let's let's see what we can do
here. So like that's present.
You know he does. He does have an agenda, you know
so. And I and I guess keep on like
to keep on going with Keith is there was there also intent and
like trying to make him like I was a little bit I wasn't sure
exactly what his job was. I was thinking that it was
something like he buys up. From what I understand from the

(41:28):
dialogue, it's just difficult because you're taking a lot in
on both. We only see it twice, but we
want to see it, you know, 3 or 4times.
Listeners go to see it as many times as possible.
OK, well, alright. But was it was his position
buying up properties across Detroit?
Is that what he was doing for artist?
Is that, is that also a nod to something you you're aware of,
you're aware of with Detroit? Yeah.
That's a real thing. They're not.

(41:49):
They're not called the lion tamers, but there are
collectives. They're like punk rock DIY, like
kind of, you know, wild hippie punky kind of folks that punky.
Shoot me in the fucking face. I just said the word punky.
But there's like, you know, there's like there's, there's
punks that like buy these blocks.
They'll buy like 5 houses in a row and they'll move in and
they'll make art in there and just kind of like live off the

(42:11):
grid and just be like weirdos. It's, I don't know if they're
still there 'cause it's dangerous, but like that is a
thing. And so I think I just kind of,
I, I didn't research that very much.
So somebody might come at you and be like, he's full of shit
and they I might be. But like, I knew that that was a
thing at one point. It's not called the lion tamers.
I just thought Detroit Lions like what's?
Just a nice. But in in this the world of this

(42:36):
movie, he's just one of those punks who like is is actively
seeking where can we go and expand to?
And so it really falls apart upon any consideration because
it's like he just told her he lives in town.
So they double booked an Airbnb.OK, so why don't you get in your
car and go drive home to your house that's in this town as
opposed to like we have to cohabitate, which is like

(42:58):
another argument, which I like that detail.
I like that it falls apart because any anyone who's really
analyzing it closely, like he's lying, dude.
He's fucking lying. Like this is right there.
But she doesn't connect those dots.
And I don't, I don't really blame her because it's, I think
most people don't, but right. Yeah, she's also, it's a high
intensity moment. She's kind of just.

(43:19):
Weighing the states scenario. I mean, her brain really does
have to be working on major OverDrive here.
You know, she is assessing everything he's doing.
And so I think that one got through.
You know that one just escaped. Gotcha.
And then I'm trying to think if there's any.
I'm just thinking about Andre right now.
Did you have another one you want to talk about before Andre?

(43:39):
I got to ask about Andre, I believe is his name Andre is
that's right, the the homeless man living under the water
tower. Was there something specific
about why it was the water towerOne?
And then two, what, what was thechoice like to make Mother come
in and kill Andre? Because before that we we've
seen mother basically be a protector because she's a
survivor and she's protecting. And then that choice to I think

(44:03):
it hits at home that she is definitely like mother has been
so oppressed by the men in her life.
This one man she knows in the basement, Frank.
So in this situation, from what we're perceiving as an audience,
by the way we kind of read it, is that Mother sees these two
men surrounding Tess and kills them like that's what she goes
and does. I wish I'd done a better job
with that moment, quite frankly.I, I think I, I a little bit, I

(44:26):
kind of dropped the ball. So she does see the last thing
she sees before she burst through the wall of Andre's him
pulling test. He is manhandling her.
You know, she kills Keith when he's he's manhandling her and
she intervenes. And I also, I cut a shot.
Sorry, guys, I'm kind of scattered here.
So she killed Keith and then shelooms over tests and in the

(44:47):
original cut tests finally like has the wherewithal to shriek
and terror and then the mother shrieks back.
And I actually kind of preferredthat because the mother is
reacting. Whereas right now in the in the
current cut, it just looks like the mother is just like
aggressive as fuck to her. But if I had test screen 1st and
then that that that is more in line with the behavior model

(45:09):
that I I think is, would be moreconsistent.
So I fucked that up a little bit.
And then anyway, so she sees Andre yanking Tessa away from
her. So I think in that moment she's
like, that guy's dead. You know, that's what I'm
thinking now. I wish I'd, I wish I'd had a
little bit more of a thing wherelike, maybe he could have done
something to test, like maybe hewould like try to pull the
bullet out. And she screamed in pain and

(45:31):
then the mother burst through and like mauled him.
Like if I, you know, I didn't have that idea until literally
right now as I'm talking to you.So like, shit, that would have
worked, you know, then fuck, Goddamn it, but that would have
been good. That would have been good
because everyone would have understood like she's she's so
protective and that would have reinforced what happened on top.
Yes, I'm I'm really going to be pissed off at myself.

(45:53):
No, no, no, it really it hits home that that mother is
protecting, right? And also I think that was the
moment that connected all kind of all the men for me in the
movie because I was wondering, OK, are we getting these
separate paths of these characters?
And then I started to go back and think about Keith's choices
and even more so about Keith, you know, in the basement with

(46:15):
her, like physically blocking her and all those things that
connected the men. So I thought it worked out.
Yeah. If all the.
Women died. It would be a little bit
confusing. I'll let myself off the hook
now. The water tower, This is an
interesting 1. So in the script that that
final, you know, the Danuma takes place in a church, in an
abandoned church at the end of the block.
And I was really excited about this, like, you know, this

(46:36):
A-frame roof that they could kind of scale up.
And then the mothers coming up this a frame name and he grabs
Tess and he throws her down. So the mother has to, you know,
about face and leap off the roofof this church.
And it was going to be a little bit like of a less of a drop,
not a severe. And I was really hung up on
that. But the problem is the field
that we shot this in Bulgaria. I don't know if you knew we shot

(46:56):
in Bulgaria. There was a water tower at the
end of the block. And I, and I was talking to my
art director, like, maybe we build the church, you know, in
front of the water tower and then we're going to see the
stupid water tower. Maybe we CGI out the water
tower. And my DP was like, why don't we
just like change it to a water tower?
It already had the staircase andeverything.
And I was like, Oh, that's great.
So, so it's a water tower because it was there is, is the

(47:18):
answer. But I'm so glad because that
staircase is like, that was the real water tower.
It was harrowing going up that thing and it was, it was
perfect. So, so that and it had a domed
roof. And so it was just like, this is
great. So that's what that is.
It was an incredible set. I mean, you guys did an
incredible job. We want to do something really
wild this is. It has nothing to do with the
deeper meaning of anything. But we couldn't film the

(47:41):
sequence on top of the water tower actually on top, because
it's too dangerous. So it's like very high up, and
it's terrifying. So we recreated the top of the
water tower on a sound stage, and we wrapped a black curtain
in a huge semicircle around the water tower.
We put lights on the other side of the curtain and then we just
punched little holes in the curtain to be the city skyline

(48:02):
because we didn't have the moneyto like CGI or green screen or
anything. And the, the camera depth of
field is just perfect enough that it, they're out of focus
and it looks, it's all practical.
So it looks like the city and you, as you, the camera moves,
it tracks perfectly because it'sreal.
And so like that was a, a reallymy, I take no credit.
That was my DP, but I thought that was an ingenious way to

(48:23):
kind of circumnavigate the the real no.
That's incredible. You can't even tell.
Yeah. As you were saying that, I was
wondering if when you're going up the stairs if it.
Was stairs that's that's. Real when they're all the stuff.
On top, so as soon as like you know, they're on, they're
they're at the top of the stairs.
That's all fake. Right.
OK, that's incredible. The only other, the only other

(48:44):
question I had in terms of a theme or maybe not as much of A
theme, but like the intentionality of it all, was
there any at any point during the script writing process?
Because we talked about this on our last podcast and this is not
us, by the way, saying what would be a better movie.
We said in the pod that we just have IP head and like franchise.
I love it, I love it. Because of because of Marvel,
because of it, but just because of the IP of it all.

(49:07):
And there was a moment in which,you know, AJ like finds the
string, the bell, and then there's, you know, these
different, you know, directions he can take.
And I turned to Kelson. We were both talked for a
second, like, because it felt somuch like a Get out movie for
us. I was like, is this going to be
like us? Like is this is?
Are there going to? Be like an underground city.
Across all these like all this economic segregation has led to

(49:28):
all these families hidden like under the like this God the.
Mind. The mind just expands.
When you and we were we were just stressing out about that
the whole time because we were like, we hope not, because
that's going to be such a like acrazy like we're we really
weren't looking for another, I guess franchise.
So I guess what I'm saying this is just a long compliment of
being like, thank you for makingsuch a concentrated like

(49:48):
seriously thought out horror movie that doesn't need to like
have a prequel, a sequel, you know, part.
Six I've been asked a lot this week about Prequel Sequel.
I'm sure that's been rough. Yeah.
And I, I, I'm not into, I'm, youknow, initially I was like never
and, and, and so, and I don't think I would ever direct or
write them, but I was, you know,have you read Grendel, a novel?

(50:13):
IA long time ago when I think it's.
Really fantastic. So I was like, you know, I was,
I did have a moment yesterday where I was like, there is
something about that. The structure.
For anyone who doesn't know, Grendel is a book.
And I can't believe I just read it like not long ago and I
forget the the author's name andI'm so embarrassed.
But it's a book that like basically is written from the

(50:34):
the perspective of the monster in Beowulf and and it's like
Grendel lives in a cave with it.By the way, the the mother is
literally just taken from a Beowulf book I had as a child.
It's Grendel's mother. There's.
We leaked. We linked the image in our.
Podcast, great. Just for people to see, yeah.
Yeah, my professor had a tattoo.I was an English man.
Professor had. A tattoo of that tattoo.

(50:55):
Will you send me a photo of the tattoo?
I wish I had 10. Man, I'd love to see that.
Yeah, we can try to find it. We got you.
OK, but anyway, the idea is, is is, you know, you followed
Beowulf from the perspective of Grendel, kind of similar to what
I think the Wizard of the Wicked, kind of a vibe.
It's like, you know, so you sympathize with Grendel and and
as he kind of comes out every night from his layer and like

(51:17):
spies on humanity. And I was like, that would be
the only interesting way to tellthe stories.
If you just started with the mother from, you know, maybe
it's a prequel as she lives downthere.
And what is it like for her to like sneak out at night and spy
on people and like, what does she do?
And I don't have a story. I just think that would be the
way in. I'm not going to do it.

(51:39):
But like, I think I think that's, that's an interesting.
I, I'm curious about it, you know, and then I might have
heard me joke on other podcasts or other interviews or things
like the sequel would be, it would have to be a pure farce.
You have to be the mother survives her gunshot and has to
reintegrate into society, you know, and like attend Community
College and get her GED or learner's permit and like go on

(52:01):
dates with boys. And all the while she's having
like total freak outs and like mauling people.
I think that that would be fun. But, you know, I'm not going to
make it, but I'd love to watch it.
That would be awesome. Yeah.
Oh, my God, That's incredible. I know.
I'm just, I'm just really glad it is.
It is what it is. It's become like a it's weird to
call it. I feel like it's putting down
the movie by saying it's a cult classic, which I know you

(52:22):
probably don't care if I said cult classic to a movie you're
making. You're like, that sounds
incredible. But the movie, yeah, box office
success, though, I'm sure this week has just been like, I don't
know, probably just an incredible experience.
I mean, I think it it led the box office over the weekend.
We joked on the we joked on the podcast that nothing tops Top
Gun, but apparently Barbarian ishere to do that and like.
Well, Top Gun had had a really long run.

(52:44):
So I don't, I don't. It's not like this movie.
Top, Top Gun, you know, Top Gun made $700 billion, you know,
come on. Just just take it.
Just take it. OK.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So I'm sure like I just I guess our final question before kind
of our final final question, which is like more about the
extra credits of your own movie.But what is this week been like

(53:05):
after these few years of like riding the script, getting this
movie made, I'm sure during COVID production, like just
finally seeing it out and now seeing the reviews and seeing
the critics love it, fans love it.
The kind of like fandom around it, the different experiences
like from people like us to people who are just going to
have a thrill ride. Like what is that?
If you could, you know, put intowords, I'm trying to, I'm sorry,
putting you on the spot, but. Like, no, I don't mind.

(53:26):
I don't mind because I wonder that myself and I, yeah, you
know, this is, this is the firsttime for me where I've had this,
right. So, and when I see people who've
had this, I, I'm so curious of what that experience must feel
like. And, and I don't know if it's
possible for me to give a satisfying answer except to try
and be as honest as I can and say that like, there are moments

(53:47):
where I want to like spontaneously burst into tears
when I, when I like, listen to people, thoughtful, intelligent
people like you, like appreciatethe movie.
There's moments where I feel totally numb.
There's a lot of pressure. Not now I'm got a lot of
pressure on what will be next and can I write something this
good again? And I don't know if I can or
not, you know, I don't know. There's moments of, like I said

(54:09):
earlier today, I was like, I, I'm allowing myself to really
indulge in my narcissism. So I'm reading all these things
and I'm watching these videos. I'm, I'm looking at Twitter and
it feels good and I get a littledopamine hit every time somebody
says something nice. And it's, you know, what's
bizarre is that like the more I kind of obsess or feed on that
stuff, the lower the dopamine hit becomes, you know, and

(54:31):
that's a sad realization when it's like, oh, this isn't like
a, this isn't like a life transforming.
Now I'm happy every forever sortof a situation.
You know, I think a lot of people have this fantasy that if
something, if one thing were to change in their life or they
get, they get this one thing that they'll be happy.
Yeah, and life doesn't work thatway, you know?

(54:54):
You know, we only really have the present moment.
And so as much as all of this isa blast, I'm still just I'm
still sitting in my same clothesin my same chair in the same
garage that I've had, you know, the whole time.
And this is such a joy to talk to you guys.
But as soon as this is over, I'mgoing to click stop.
And then my house will be quiet.My wife's in there.
And like, we'll talk about whereto get food tonight and like,

(55:16):
nothing is going to happen, you know?
And that's, that's a good thing.Like, that's what it should be
like. It would be really like not good
for me as a human if like I was going to have a limo waiting
outside and I was going to get sucked off to a party with, you
know, Brad Pitt and all these famous people and like, I would
never be bored again and I wouldnever be lonely again.
Like I will all of that is waiting for me.
So I try and stay aware that like you guys want to talk to me

(55:40):
this week and in two weeks, likeno one's going to want to do
this. So like I'm going to bask and
lap this up now, but but you know, the ride will come to an
end. So I have to, I have to keep
that with me. I hope that was not a very
pretentious whatever. You asked the question, that's
the answer, no? No, if anything that was the
most humble answer. You can I I was really saying it

(56:01):
from an authentic, like artisticperspective, like I I'm really
not that like now you're like it.
It's not really a question out of fame and sure like you've
already had had such an interesting career that's had
success like and in different moments from Miss Marsh.
But this is very different. On YouTube but this is quite
different and like the validation I think is like it
feels great. Because you don't know, like,

(56:21):
you know, when you make a movie,you never know if it's good.
You know, I've made a movie before that was really bad that
I was raked over the coals and Iwas embarrassed and it was loud
and it was a really hard experience for me and I was gun
shy that that could be the case again, you know.
And so, yeah, there's there's a lot of anxiety about the, you

(56:43):
know, when you're going to let go of the bike and let your kid,
you know, go down the hill, which is kind of how it feels to
like release a movie. And and it feels great that
like, you know, people like thisand, and I don't know what else
to say. It feels great.
It's very it's very heart warming.
OK, so before we're done, let melet's talk about what the movie

(57:07):
really actually means to me and this.
Is incredible. OK.
All right. Here we go and this is going to
be a big let down. And I don't think I, again, I
don't know how aware I was of this as I was writing it, but
this is certainly, this is certainly true that this is what
it is about. It's about sobriety.

(57:27):
I'm an alcoholic. I grew up in an alcoholic
household. Addiction is something that I've
I've, you know, very familiar with.
I'm seven years sober, I don't mind saying.
And the process of getting soberis an intolerable one unless you
are able to confront your shit and like pay attention to like
where you're fucked up, what you're doing wrong, like what

(57:49):
what habits inside of you are like toxic.
And So what that looks like is, is a deep, you know, in
recovery, they talk about a moral inventory.
You know, you have to like looks, do a scathing search of
yourself and and confront you. And so that is what these

(58:09):
characters are doing that that the catacombs under the house
and the, the, the demons that are lurking there are, you know,
uniquely crafted. Tessa's demon is the mother, a
JS demon is Frank. They must confront themselves.
You know, like all of the thingsthat we're talking about, the
toxic masculinity is all just part of the the anatomy of the
same thing. Like Tessa must, she must

(58:31):
liberate herself from being a doormat, right?
That's her journey. So to me, she has to go down,
find the most vulnerable, toxic,whatever damaged part of her.
And like, face it, if you don't do that, you can't, you can't be
a clean person. And I mean that like in terms of
inebriation and just like your soul, AJ must do it too.
He fails, you know, he, he, he certainly is like for the first

(58:53):
time, maybe becomes aware of hishis shit, but he ultimately
doesn't take responsibility for it.
And so to me, it's about that process of like, yeah, I'll just
leave it there. It's about that process.
And and that's that's it's just a metaphor for that.
No, I think that I mean that's speaks to me.

(59:13):
I mean, that's, I feel like that's going to speak to a lot
of people who are listening well.
I don't think anyone will will get that from watching the
movie. You know?
Nobody's going to listen to me like it's that surprising.
Well, I guess it kind of makes sense.
We're we, we can the movies, it feels it's like it's asking for
conversation. So I guess that that does make
sense. And we actually had Philip
Barantini, who's the director ofBoiling Point from a few years

(59:34):
ago on, and he actually is dealing with very similar
experience. He wrote that film in that time
of his life and it was kind of like a therapeutic experience
for him of exploring a lot of different things.
And yeah, that's incredible. And yeah, I mean, it's just,
it's just what's most incredibleabout this interview.
And again, thank you for coming on.
This conversation is I think what an interesting mind you

(59:57):
have. Like everything, everything
that's coming from the subconscious onto the screen and
everything that you've gone through, it feels like it's a
it's a a gift for everyone else in an odd way.
We get to, we get to just explore like.
Everything that you've investigated in your own life
and you've put on screen and like, thank you for doing that
because it really, even though this is a horror movie, it's not
something that's like necessarily sentimental.

(01:00:17):
I swear people who are listeninghaven't seen this more than the
first time or you need to go seeit a second time and more
because by the end of this movie, like I'm emotional, like
you can feel, you can feel the amount of motion poured into
this movie. And that is very rare and a
genre like this, you rarely findsomething like that.
So it has turned into an incredible movie and experience
for us. So thank you for that.

(01:00:38):
It means it means more than you know to hear you say that.
So I, I, I thank you for saying that.
I really appreciate it. Yeah.
OK, guys, what a great podcast you have.
I, I, I wasn't aware of you until, you know, my own
narcissism led me to you. But believe me, I will be
listening in the future. And if there's ever a movie that
you you'd like to discuss that you wouldn't mind having having
another another, you know, whatever voice on I, I would be

(01:01:01):
more than happy to dissect some some other movie sometime.
It's so fun to do this. So yes, it is so.
So keep me in mind. We've a few fun ideas for you
now that you've said that, now we're excited.
Yeah, think of me. Think of me as friend of the pod
Zach Kregor and. And I would love to, I'd love to
keep going and. Last question and I'll let you
go eat dinner with your wife. Congratulations to your wife, by
the way, with blonde coming out we're.

(01:01:23):
By the way, can I just. I saw Blonde last night at the
premiere. It's insane.
Yeah. It is so insane.
There were, I'm not going to lie, there were moments where I
was like, I don't know if I likethis or not.
Like there were frequently throughout the movie I was like,
I think this is like. And then there were moments I
was like, this might be the mostbrilliant, beautiful thing I've

(01:01:43):
I've ever watched. I mean it is massive, I don't
think it would even be appropriate to have an opinion
unless I've watched it a few more times and really like
thought about it a lot more. But it is worth the watch.
It's crazy he does shit in that movie that is mind blowing.
He tends to do that. He does.
I can't. I can't wait.
Okay, seriously, last thing, thelast thing we ask any director,

(01:02:04):
writer comes on the show is because the the podcast is about
the extra credits. We're trying to find the extra
credits of every film or television show were were coming
on and watching and front tryingto find meaning and everything
that we're talking about. What is a film or show that you
believe that you've seen deserves extra credit?
And I know I'm putting you on the spot, so I'll just give you
a few examples of some other people who've come on.
Tom Sturton from All My Friends Hate Me, which Georgina Campbell

(01:02:26):
actually stars in also. That was a good movie.
Yeah, a great social like, anxiety inducing thriller.
He talked about 1971's Wake and Fright.
He loved that movie. That I can't can't handle that
movie, man. Yeah, well, it makes.
Sense I can't handle the the, the the kangaroo stuff.
It's too much for me. I, I was like really, and it's a
good movie, but I, I that that was like about more than I could

(01:02:48):
take. Yes, and it makes sense that he
Co wrote All my friends Hate me because of that anxiety.
Helena Rain from Bodies talked about the piano teacher and she
really masterpiece psychologicalthrillers.
Yes, it is. Yeah.
So those are the kind of, you know, I mean, I think Philip
Barantini talked about a few movies, but he loves Uncut Gems,
even a famous movie like Uncut Gems.
He just was saying that more people should praise that movie

(01:03:08):
for what it is. Do you have anything that comes
to mind that maybe isn't that doesn't have to be your favorite
movie, which is a common question people get asked, but
just something that you think more people should go see that
maybe we haven't even, you know,checked out yet.
It's really helpful to ask people like you.
Well, OK, I always plug St. Maude, so that's just my knee
jerk thing is to say. St.
Maude, have you seen that? We haven't, but we heard you

(01:03:28):
bring it up and. So check that out I.
Put it on the watch. List.
It might not be as complex as some of the other movies you've
discussed, but it's still a masterpiece.
So I think that, and I also talkabout audition all the time, so
that's always on the tip of my tongue.
But that is a movie that demandsanalysis.
There is a fertile conversation that's fertile ground for

(01:03:48):
conversation. That movie, have you seen that?
No. You've not seen Takashi Mikke's
audition? No, that's what that's why when
you said. That's, that's your homework,
man, That, that is. And you'll see, you'll watch
auditions like, oh, Barbarian isjust like, it's just, it's just
like I'm just doing audition stuff.
You'll you? Yeah.
Japanese horror, is that what itis?
Yeah, Takashi Mikke. It's J It's 1999 Japanese movie.

(01:04:11):
Wow. Masterpiece.
It's it's it will shock you, boy.
OK, so in that vein also TakashiMiki made a film called Visitor
Queue, which is not for the faint of heart, but it is a
movie that demands reckoning in a in a way.
So I would love to hear what youguys think about that.

(01:04:32):
But also, I think have you seen it just came out.
In fact, I think it's having a United States theatrical release
now. It's called Speak No Evil.
It's a Danish film that just came out this year.
It just came out recently. We have not seen it yet.
I don't think we've had access to see it yet.
Now I'm not going to talk too much about it except to say the

(01:04:55):
first two acts of Speak No Evil are like utter perfection.
It is tense. It is it's hilarious.
It is like masterful. The third act I have issues
with, but I would love to know what you guys think.
And it's it's also clearly an allegorical film, but like I
think I think it falls short in some areas.
I think the season others, but it's it's really worth talking

(01:05:16):
about. So so I'd put that one on the
list for sure. It's great.
OK, great. Thank you for all that.
Was more than you asked for. But no, I'm sure listeners will
appreciate that. Like, I think again, a lot of
people love this movie and I think a lot of people are hoping
to pick your brain a little bit.So thank you for letting.
Do you think your listeners are going to be like, are you guys
fucking doing a third episode ofBarbarian?
Are you fucking out of your minds?
Just so you know, this is the only movie in which we've ever

(01:05:37):
had a third episode for. We talked about it.
We talked about. It that's probably the only
movie. We're the director.
He grew up and was like, let me talk about my shit.
No, people seem to be you know, it's interesting we when we say
unpack the meeting, it seems like most directors are tired of
the same old question. So they do tend to like the
themes. But you've been more than
gracious with your time, so we appreciate all the time you've.
Been I know guys, it's such a joy because you're right.

(01:05:59):
Like most of the, the talking I do about the movie are like
answering the same questions. And I obviously I understand why
I get them, you know? So comedy, comedy to heart.
Talk about that. How'd you get this made?
What's the idea come from, you know, like, blah, blah, blah.
So to be able to come and like have an actual conversation that
like I don't have rehearsed answers is like a blast.
So, yeah, yes. Well, thank you so much.

(01:06:20):
Yeah, thank. You my pleasure guys, really my
pleasure. Thank you and do keep me in
mind. I'd love to, you know, I don't
want to invite myself onto your thing, but if you know, I just
want you to know that if you ever want to talk about a movie
with me, I would. I would be so happy.

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'Barbarian' with Writer/Director Zach Cregger | Re-Release for 'Weapons'

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}'Barbarian' with Writer/Director Zach Cregger | Re-Release for 'Weapons'