The Deeper Meaning of Zach Cregger’s 'Weapons'

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Music. Hello, welcome to the extra
credits of Zach Kreger's Weapons.
I'm Trey. And I'm Kelsey.
So back in 2022, Barbarian surprised everyone.
We loved it. We covered it in multiple
episodes and as a surprise to us, Zach was listening and he
asked to come on the show. We loved having him and he

(00:36):
talked for over an hour about his influences, the movie, his
idea is intentional or in his subconscious.
We just put that episode back onthe main feed.
So for new listeners or listeners, you can check that
out. It was a really fun discussion.
Yeah, it was really fun. I think also Zach is someone
who, you know, barbarian just kind of like blew up.

(00:57):
And so we talked to him about his experience, you know, making
the movie and what it felt like to have his first, you know,
major feature that that he made just really stick in this genre.
And because of that, I think he was like so open to talking
about his experiences, his influences.
And that episode was just like so fun in terms of our past

(01:19):
conversations with directors because or creators because he's
like just a horror fan who has like very, you know, like
earnest creative intentions and is open to just like talking.
You know, there's like not this pretentious vibe or anything
like that. It's just really like about the

(01:41):
the work that he is doing and hehe's like excited to talk about
it with people and that was so refreshing.
Yeah, I don't. I haven't listened to it since
it came out when I edited it. Back in 2020. 2 But I do know
people love that episode. That was the beginning of our
podcast. I know a lot of people have
reached out listeners and said like, this is when I started
listening to you. Like I, you know, I really found

(02:03):
your podcast, loved your podcastbecause of of this conversation
and started listening to more. So that's really cool.
But you know, that is also the beginnings of our podcast and so
I don't go back to listen. Well, we did an almost 2 hour
deep dive on the movie and that's what Zach listened to.
He listened to our non spoiler review and our spoiler review.

(02:24):
He reached out and was like, I have a lot to say about this
conversation and I was like all right, great.
He basically takes over the whatwas supposed to be an interview
and he basically interviews us for an.
Hour, which is really fun well because he was like I have like,
you know I have things to add there's some things that I felt
like you guys like picked up other things that I did not
intend but like let's talk aboutthem and he's just obviously

(02:47):
such a funny guy like his background is in comedy and it's
something I appreciate so much about like, you know his work.
We'll talk about that about barbarian a little bit in
comparison, especially to weapons.
Even though he didn't make it aslike a horror comedy, there are
things that just come out that are like especially get this
like elevated magical space of having a well, I, I'm sorry, I

(03:09):
won't. There's an absurdity.
I won't go into spoilers, yeah, but but yeah, so that that
aspect of it, it's just really fun to to talk with him about.
If you want to hear the deep dive that led Zach wanting to
talk to us, we just put that on Patreon for free members.
So if you go in the description of this episode, you can sign up
as a free member, hear our Barbarian deep dive and then go
over to the main feed and listento that Craigor conversation.

(03:31):
Now we just rewatched Barbarian this morning.
It's only three years old, but Ijust want to say it's time for a
rewatch for listeners if. You haven't seen it in a while.
It really holds up. It's visual style is really
unique, it's humor is incredible.
It's ideas are there or not there.
I think that's a part of the conversation of like the Cracker

(03:51):
experience, which is that he focuses so much on trying to get
an audience to just like, I don't know, kind of like sink
into their subjectivity and how they're experiencing a film and
how they're, you know, reacting to a piece of art and lets them
map onto a movie, which I think is a skill set in its own right.
And I think we're in a wave of, you know, elevated horror that

(04:12):
has been going on for 10 or so years.
And I know that's a controversial term.
I don't really give a shit. I think it's like also a
necessary term because we are a part of the generation that grew
up with shitty horror. Movies.
And through the 2000s, that werelike gore.
Yeah, it was essentially tortureporn, right?
Like it was Saw movies and the the dilemma was essentially

(04:35):
almost like superhero movies andexcept way more watered down.
And just like, let's see, someone saw their own arm off
like and and also like hostile, you know, drove.
Through a stop sign, get ready to saw your ankle.
And I know there are like interesting takes like even with
with hostile about like capitalism or, you know, like

(04:57):
looking at like conjuring and. Final destination.
Session films, yeah, like, obviously there's a lot to say
about that genre, but in terms of like the actual experience
watching it, I do think that it takes a lot more work to really
map on those ideas and the the experience in itself isn't
really enjoyable. Like, you're not like I'm

(05:17):
participating in something. It doesn't feel like there's
totally a mystery. It feels like at the forefront
what people are thinking about is like shocking people through
violence. And that becomes very like
boring so. And then it got franchised, you
know, and then diluted because the first movie of all those
franchises that we just noted are usually really fun.

(05:37):
Like the first soft film is actually pretty interesting.
Everything after that is like kind of a joke.
No offense to like super soft fans, but my point that I was
getting to is that elevated horror or social horrors or
whatever you want to call them, very like socially conscious
horror films that are self referential or postmodern,
whatever pretentious, you know, phrasing or of words you want to
throw on to that genre. I think started with obviously

(06:01):
Wes Craven's Scream, kind of took a break for 10 or 15 years,
and then we got our own version of that in terms of like
referencing different eras of horror movies and also being
very contemporary with Jordan Peele's Get Out in 2017.
That movie kind of broke the industry in a lot of fun ways.
Probably the most famous horror film since Silence of the Lambs.

(06:21):
Yeah, I mean, it revitalized a ahuge like, general audience to
to want to like go see horror again and just like talk about
horror in an interesting way. Besides, just like, did you see
this? It was gruesome.
Let me leave it here. Yeah, we've been very, I think,
upfront, transparent about this.We love Jordan Peele, we love
Ari Astor, we love Robert Eggers.
Those three people kind of reignited the horror genre,

(06:45):
especially in the indie space orlow budget space at the very
least, and they all have their own interest.
You can go back and listen to all those episodes for free
members on Patreon. We did an episode in Hereditary
with James. One of our favorite.
Guests and we get into all of those film makers and how
they're all different. Well, how there's also a through
line between them in an interesting way.
But yeah, we're in a really coolwave of just like otors who have

(07:08):
this like unapologetic style andhave all these horror references
that they nod to in their films for the real heads like us,
which is really exciting. Other directors are like Rose
Glass, Alex Garland, NIA Dacosta, some up and coming
directors that you know, I'm forgetting right now in the
moment. But there's a lot of great
names, and I think Zack Rigor just.
In this space. With weapons like regardless if

(07:29):
you love it or not. Exactly.
Yeah, I think like Barbarian, you know, was a like smash hit
and I think it deserves deservedly so.
But weapons like regardless, if you're someone who is out on it
because of the heightened, almost supernatural, absurd
elements of it, and that's just not your type of horror.

(07:53):
It's like undeniable that the way that he's able to capture
this, the story and his visual language, his vision for it,
which we'll talk about today in our relationship to the movie.
But it is undeniable and definitely just cements him in
this this new wave. OK, so we're almost 10 minutes
in. Important to note this at the

(08:14):
top here, We actually stayed in touch with Zach after we did
that episode 3 years ago and before Weapons was even shot, he
asked if we wanted to check out the script, which was a really
cool privilege, a really awesomeexperience.
We read that in literally like 2hours and had a lot of reactions
that we sent back over to him about how exciting of a project

(08:35):
it was, how it was, you know, socool that he was playing with
multiple genres. It was multi toned.
He was bringing back like Stephen King energy and had all
these reference points that, youknow, that I wanted to like
point out as my own like pretentious horror fan than I
am. And you know, I'm saying that to
say that we are a little bit closer to this one, you know,

(08:57):
and, and as far as like all the reviews we do of mainstream
movies, but we can still be critical, you know, as we all,
as we kind of always are in all of our movie episodes.
Like we I think sinners is a really good example of this, as
Ryan Coogler is one of the our favorite film makers of the last
decade. And that was a movie that we
were like, love this, this didn't totally work.
Then I love this. And then this didn't totally
work. And that was a that was an

(09:18):
episode that was really like conflicting because we were kept
going back and forth, you know, and some listeners hated that
and some loved it. We had a lot of people reach out
about sinners actually being like.
I totally disagreed with all of your takes on this, but I loved
how. At least we were having a
conversation, yeah, that of about how we felt.
Yeah, and authentic it was, and I think we'll have a similar
conversation today. The thing I want to know about

(09:41):
the screenplay and a kind of allI'll say about the screenplay is
how wild that this movie is essentially a shot for shot
realization of that screenplay. The same tone, the same
weirdness, same dialogue, same kind of like funny banter, every
joke you think Josh Brolin did kind of in the moment on set
with something that Zach wrote in the screenplay, the same

(10:04):
iconography, You know, the. I don't want to spoil it, but
there's a very important stick in this movie, a very important
bell like, all that kind of horror iconography that's very
important to like, yeah, I thinkfans of Carpenter, fans of
Hitchcock, whatever. De Palma, he had that, you know,
written down years in advance and we thought while reading it

(10:25):
years ago now, how the hell is he going to pull this off?
Is it possible? Like this is so strange and it's
also it's similar to Barbarian and how it jumps in timeline
stuff. And we'll get to spoilers in a
second, but what I will know is like how Barbarian was a little
bit more on the forefront with its dilemmas, a little bit more
on the forefront with its ideas.And certainly this movie is

(10:46):
about like, missing children, ifyou've seen the trailer.
But I think the ideas are mostlyin the atmosphere in the
periphery of weapons, which is an interesting pivot for him as
somebody who is both trying to capitalize on the elevated
horror genre without being pretentious about being so
straightforward and transparent about all these massive,
thematically dense ideas he wants to have in a movie.

(11:08):
Yeah, I mean, I would say Weapons is is a different movie,
right. And yeah, I definitely when we
read it, we were like, this is really cool.
But it it feels similar to maybelike how someone if they read,
you know, a screenplay of it would be like, how is this going
to be captured on screen? Like what is the budget that's
needed, right, to do this? Because there are some

(11:31):
supernatural like, you know, elements to this.
So I think that was like definitely the biggest question.
And he he obviously like pulled it off, which was really cool to
see. But it is, it is important to
note just because you know, it'sit's the same experience people
have of like maybe you've read abook or something, right.
And go to see the movie. So, yeah, I was mostly excited
like when we saw this just to tosee the the trailer, which was

(11:55):
awesome. And then also to see like how he
captured this. And you're right, like it is
really cool that this like brandnew filmmaker in the the horror
space, like on the scene was able to stick so closely to his
script. Yeah, I mean, like I said, it
just, it really surprised me. I didn't see that.

(12:16):
I just couldn't really see it. And I don't mean that to sound
like a diss. It just means that I'm not a
film maker, you know? What I mean so like I couldn't.
I was like, how does he do this sonically, visually,
cinematically? Like I don't really see how he's
going to do certain things in here.
And again, we'll touch on a specific examples in a second,
but what I think was really compelling about this movie is
very similar to barbarian is that both barbarian and now

(12:37):
weapons Craiger has carved out this odd compelling space where
psychological character dramas can live and unfold inside Grimm
kind of fairy tale meet Stephen King styled world.
And that's why I think we've just brought up Jordan Peele
because he feels like a natural comparison.
You also know that they're, I think, you know, I don't know,

(12:58):
let's say peers, maybe friends, offset.
And so they also have interestingly similar careers
like Jordan Peele, obviously themuch more famous kind of comedy
sketch artist, but Gregor also what kind of a sketch comedy
artist himself? Both have an uncanny feel from
the rhythm of a joke and the rhythm of a scare and the
crossover between the two. And both draw from Carpenter

(13:20):
Hitchcock and the iconographic storytelling that I was just
talking about and watch Jordan Peele's Us, I think is an
interesting double feature with weapons.
I recommend that to everyone. Maybe Midsummer US and weapons
as a triple feature. That would be dope.
Yeah, I know. I mean, obviously like Jordan
Peele is huge, but I do think that US is like underrated in a

(13:41):
way, which we we discussed in our what was it like one of our
longest Patreon episodes that wedid?
Yeah, but I think people dismissed it similar to maybe
the the reasons people might be distanced from weapons in that
it has certain like heightened elements that you have to buy
into. But but definitely that's a

(14:02):
great comparison cause US is so successful.
Yeah, And I think, you know, to give Craigor his credit in terms
of how he's a unique storyteller, he balances these,
like, contrasting vibes in his work.
His movies feel lean and personal with real grounded
dilemmas, but also have these like, meticulous, not quite
Fincher, but not not Fincher or like Shyamalan structures or

(14:26):
designs that are very specific. And he is singular in this space
because of those skill sets, butalso because he's able to do
this thing where he can shift perspectives on relatable
dilemmas seamless, seamlessly. And he's done that twice in
three years via the same setting, basically a suburban

(14:46):
nightmare. He has a double booked Airbnb
and barbarian. He's got missing children and
weapons stuck in these suburbias, and you're just
waiting for the shoe to drop. And he has a gift for warping
the seemingly straightforward thrillers into supernatural
horrors in ways that are kind oflike crazily entertaining and
deeply weird and refreshingly original.

(15:06):
So he's just very special as a film maker.
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think, you know, actually
I'm realizing something about his work that I love because my
other, you know, sub genre or genre of movies with horror is
thrillers. And he has like in the Tess and
Keith situation or just following, you know, different

(15:28):
time jumps in barbarian, a detective aspect of, you know,
this this world. And then there's also that in
Justine's character and weapons,and it feels like you're in this
earnest, like trusted place of trying to figure out like what
was going to happen. Although I know that you said
when we were watching Barbarian last night that you're like,

(15:50):
when we first saw this, I thought just because of how it
was marketed so much that test was going into this Airbnb and
we see we see Skarsgard that maybe she might be like the
killer, right? Like.
There's a lot of rug pools happening in that.
Movie yeah because you're like because what because if this is
the premise what's the other thing going to be and so like
there's this kind of like detective aspect of it but which

(16:12):
feels grounded and. And again, like operating in
this suburban commentary, but then he he does something where
it's like, let's add this supernatural aspect, which turns
into like a mystery and it's both horrifying and like,
comedic at times. And that tension is something
that he plays in so well and feels very unique.

(16:37):
Yeah, I mean, it's just an undeniably strange tone and a
darkly funny tone and deeply fucked up.
And somehow I think I think Weapons to me is subtly
emotional and how it threads itsthemes of loss and grief and who
weaponizes grief and loss and why and compartmentalizing

(16:59):
different issues in your life and finding coping mechanisms
that might be dangerous to you or others.
And he's just really interested in that in Barbarian.
He double s down on that here inWeapons.
However, in saying that, and I do think there is like an
emotional depth here in this movie, even though some critics
disagree. I think there are a few things

(17:21):
keeping me from totally connecting with the movie that
we're going to get into. And I think some of that is the
movie's non linear structure, which I liked on paper, I think
more than I liked in the movie, if that makes sense.
And as it wasn't like totally cinematically effective for me.
And it could have been the chemistry between characters and
the dialogue. It could have been chemistry

(17:41):
between actors. It could have been repetition
and seeing, you know, different scenes but from different
perspectives without much pay off in my opinion.
In some cases maybe except for the Alex character who I don't
want to touch on right now. Yeah, I think I agree with like
the repetition in certain cases,which obviously going into the
movie in a second. But there were some moments

(18:02):
where I was thinking, OK, this is like really interesting.
And I was thinking about people's experience in the
theater who, you know, didn't know what was going to happen
that that kind of either like revealed something to us, like
the Brolin character and Alex especially.
But I think there are other cases where it was interesting
because I felt like there were people who I loved in terms of

(18:25):
casting. And then there were those
moments that you were just talking about that I think the
chemistry was off in moments where it really needed it.
And so that, yeah, that was alsolike interesting in terms of the
way the the story was framed andand how it relies on the actors
to have a certain relationship. Right?
That is that the movies like clinging to.

(18:47):
To go to the suspense and mystery point of this, I think
it's also important to note thatwe had just like a unique
experience with this movie. We already talked about how we
read the screenplay, but I thinkI'm going to try to reflect on
that throughout this review or conversation.
In as far as the fact that because we already knew what was
going to happen in the movie, aswe walked into the movie and we

(19:08):
had already talked to Zach, our connection to the material was
kind of like inherently undercutting the suspense
throughout the movie. So like the rhythm and release
of the horror elements that are supposed to be present on like
opening night of horror film before you've had it spoiled for
you on Twitter or whatever. You know, that wasn't there for
us, you know, because we'd already we already knew what was

(19:30):
going to happen scene to scene. And it really is truly like a
page to screen, you know, version, you know, and it truly
is just like the screenplay comealive.
Yeah, so it's hard to like essentially, you know, put
yourself in the position of a big reveal.
Yeah, right. I think though, we can we can
talk about though, like the first time we interacted right

(19:51):
with the story, how we were like, whoa, whoa, OK.
But like, you know, in, in in terms of seeing it, I was more
so interested. In like how this was going to be
visualized because I knew Zach had like a very specific vision.
And, and again, like I'm so successful in terms of how he
was able to capture this story. But but yeah, like I really

(20:14):
it's, it's impossible to say like, oh, here's what I would
have experienced if I knew nothing.
Yeah, so some people who loved this right away, and I might one
day, I don't know, maybe I've only seen him once and we just
saw it last night, right? Yeah.
So it's very fresh in our memory.
I would like you to think if youhad the screenplay to Barbarian
before you saw Barbarian and knew what was going to happen in

(20:34):
that movie, I don't think your experience would be the same
right away. It would take you probably a few
re watches and just like conversations of people to like
really appreciate it because a lot of the power of crackers
films come from their unpredictability.
They are usually like one location rug pulls descending
you into basement, you know whatI mean?

(20:56):
Like and toxic masculinity and Barbarian in a time jumping
gentrified Detroit Airbnb. If we hadn't ever known like a
hint of that story in spoiler alert for Barbarian of watching
Skarsgard's head get bashed intoa wall.
Cut to a dark screen, then cut to Justin Long singing in his

(21:17):
car. If that was on paper and we read
that before watching that movie,I don't know if we would have
had that same amazing kind of communal theater experience that
was electric, you know? So I just want listeners to know
that if you walked away being like, how did Trey Kelsey not
immediately love everything about this movie?
They're cracker heads. They love Barbarian.
So just to kind of put that. At the top there.

(21:38):
Well, I will say also though, I think that in terms of like the
like, I think barbarian and weapons are different movies and
I think now we can probably likego into spoilers in spoiler.
Alert. Yeah.
OK, so we'll go into spoilers because I think that Barbarian
is more in line with what I lovein other horror movies that are
like up there for me, right? Like I like grounded dramas.

(22:00):
I like people talking in rooms. I think one of the the most
successful parts of Barbarian isthe really like relatable horror
of this Airbnb double booked conceit of Tess and Keith
talking. Is Keith going to kill her?
Is he this like, you know, he has these like benevolent sexist
tendencies like, oh, no, not up for a discussion.

(22:21):
You know, like I was raised, yeah, to not let women lift a
finger kind of that that idea, right.
So like, but you know, so he's like doing all these different
signals like. A ghost.
Yeah, and he's also like Pennywise, so.
You. Know so you know there's all
like that aspect of it I love I also love like the the time

(22:42):
jumps and barbarian and everything feels a little bit
more grounded again and it's like serial killer vein
detective vein of us understanding what's happening
in a grounded sense that ends upbeing supernatural as well.
But that's like a kind of a added on aspect of the story in
a grounded story where weapons, I think, you know, the the

(23:03):
central tension is that these kids were like hypnotized in a
way, right and tranced by a witch to kind of Hocus Pocus
style, right, to come to her house.
So that way she can be more youthful, right.
And so like that is a far more supernatural leaning horror

(23:23):
movie. And so, like, while I think that
I'll I'll probably re watch it and the and the first time I
read it, I was like, I really like this, but because of the
the like sub genre of horror that it is, I never, I don't
think I'll like ever really end up being like this is an all
timer for me, because that's just not the sub genre of horror
that I love. I really like it, for example,

(23:45):
which is like AI think a huge probably compliment to be
comparing this to to a Stephen King movie, which I think he's
like playing in that that realm,like truly.
But if I were to say like, yeah,I respect it, but I don't love
it. It's the same thing that I'm
having towards weapons, if that makes sense.
Totally, And I think one of the reasons that I was surprised
that you were connecting with Barbarian is that at the time in

(24:07):
the marketing, a lot of people are calling it like after had
come out like a creature feature, a monster movie.
And then actually Barbarian is iconic because it's averts
monster creature feature tropes.And actually, the monsters in
the movie are like this spectrumof men that you meet who are
manipulative or gaslighters or serial, I don't know,
assaulters, right? So like, yeah, they're those

(24:27):
people are really the people with issues.
And everything else is just kindof a part of the larger, like,
elevated horror movie that Tigerwas making.
But yeah, weapons. Spoiler alert.
Everything you mentioned about the witch I don't think is in
the trailer. So that must have been a huge
surprise for people. I mean, there were in the
trailer, there were aspects of like the potion making.

(24:49):
I think maybe there was a there was the bell sound, at least I
think so too. Possibly a snap.
Yeah, there was like a quick image of her.
But I don't think anyone was going into this movie.
They're like, where did the kidsgo?
But I I don't think they were thinking like, oh, it's going to
be a witch. And like not only a witch, but a
kind of like very specifically rendered, which that felt like

(25:13):
this kind of eerie. Have you ever seen HR Pup and
stuff like very in that line? That was a horror movie for me
growing up, let me tell you. But But yeah, like in that line
of just like an elevator witch, like it wasn't like a a scary
grounded gothic horror witch. Does that make sense you?

(25:34):
Remind me of who's the character, who's like children
children. Oh yes, and Chitty Bang Bang.
It's the child snatcher, AnotherYeah, really like seared in my
brain horror person. We're of course talking about
Amy Madigan's character in this movie as Gladys Lily, who is
Alexis great aunt or is she? And she is a witch who basically

(25:59):
is the kind of mystery of the movie.
You're wondering what happened to these kids.
We get multiple storylines shifting PO VS throughout the
film, different chapters. Reminded me a lot of Nope and
how it's structured too. And we see this whole American
suburb about what I think is Pennsylvania upended and you
have children doing Naruto running from their.
Houses. Recorded on Ring cameras, which

(26:20):
I thought was really clever. And the marketing called it
Magnolia, by the way of essentially like a Stephen King
like fairy tale basically. And that's definitely felt in
the structure and in the tone, where he's weaving mystery and
dark comedy and family drama andthis kind of warped fable of
twenty 20s Americana and American suburbia with a pretty

(26:41):
fun cast that over the past few years has been cast and then
recasted. I've noticed 'cause I think
Pedro Pascal was eventually. Yeah, there was a lot of
different things. This is a really exciting, I
think movie to follow in the news, like from the bidding war
we're. Not we're not a rensfee at one
point. Yeah, but there was, there was a
lot of different recasting. Yeah, I was trying to look real

(27:01):
quick. Yeah, the movie was 38 million.
We're not a Rensfee, Brian. Tyree Henry was in this at one
point. Tom Burke, who is in black bag
earlier this year. Wow, Really interesting.
If it was Pedro Pascal this would have been a crazy summer
for him. Maybe he somehow would have fit
this like it already was a crazysummer.
Edmonton, Fantastic Four Materialist.
Materialist and this movie that would have been, I mean it

(27:23):
already was iconic. But anyways, OK, So what is
weapons about? It is like what I've been
saying, part suburban mystery, part supernatural horror, part
kind of like pitch dark comedy, all fragmented together in this
wild narrative. And the story is set in a
fictional town, I believe, and the movie opens with a young

(27:43):
girl narrating A Midsummer like Fable.
At 2:17 AM, something unthinkable happens, which is a
classroom of children, 17 children I believe, out of 18
kids disappear from the same 3rdgrade classroom.
They rise out of their beds. We watch them wander out of the
front doors. They vanish into the darkness.

(28:03):
Except again, for that one kid. And how did you take that?
How did you take the 2:17 AM when you read it in the script
and when you saw it in the movie, How did you take the very
specific number of children? How did you take the way that
Craiger plays with like visual imagery in that way or codes or
numbers or like he did this in Barbarian too.
I think the year or the number on the House is 476 and which is

(28:26):
like the end of the Roman Empire.
And it's like he didn't do that intentionally.
It was like random. But he he's really good at just
like, let me give you a visual that I'm going to let you map
onto, project onto, and then allof you will have different
interpretations. It feels like he's fucking with
audiences a little little bit, if that makes sense.
Not a malicious way, but sort ofexperimental in as far as like
understanding how audiences are built in this new formula of

(28:49):
elevated horror where everythinghas subtext.
And he's like, actually not. I mean, that's what I was going
to ask you. Do you think these things have
subtext, or are they just in playing with very specific ways
that people try to make meaning out of, like loss?
Yeah. Well, OK.
Well, the, those are like two different things because I think
that's the first main question that you're asking is like this,
the number of children that go missing, the 217 that we see on

(29:11):
the clocks and then later on like the rifle.
I, I think there are some interesting aspects of like
thinking about violence and timestopping that.
I'm not sure if that was like intentional and that is really
interesting. But like in terms of like what
people normally do with horror movies, is there like what Bible
verse is this? You know, like an, and I haven't

(29:32):
looked up like what specific 217would mean even after all this
time. Like knowing that number I.
Looked back at her e-mail back to him and I did put in the
Bible verse and I was embarrassed by reading that
back. I was like, oh God.
So paled by, like, especially like Jordan Peele, you know, you
brought up us as like, an interesting comparison to this
movie in terms of its, like, elevated premise that you buy

(29:55):
into. Yeah, and supernatural aspects
of it. And like, you know, he includes
a Bible verse in that and Peel is like very direct about it.
And I think he like, talks aboutit also in Nope.
At some point there's like something, right?
So. So I think like, yeah.
And so I think knowing just how Zach like treated barbarian, I'm

(30:16):
not sure what specific meaning like 217 is.
Maybe it does have like a specific meaning and he would
probably, you know, talk about how like though he would be
interested in how other people would map onto it it.
Could even just be a date. Yeah.
Or it could be both. Things you could have a meaning
for but also is the looking to for people to map onto it.
Yeah, so, but I do think that I didn't even think about that

(30:38):
until you just asked me this question.
But I do think in terms of the idea of loss and violence, this
idea of time stopping. Yeah, that's a good point.
Is a really interesting way to look at it, but I don't really
know anything else about like the the number of children.
Did you like look up these thesenumbers where?
You did you recently originally read the screenplay this time

(31:00):
around? I really especially after that
conversation we had with him where he was like talking about
David Lynch and like letting audiences come in with all their
baggage project onto the movie almost like you would like a
really layered painting and be like, this is how I read these,
you know, lines that I'm lookingat for these different colors
that are being blended together.And I think that he's really

(31:21):
interesting in as far as how we have such like allegorical
horror film makers today like Gordon Peele, who is so
subtextual and so historical andbring such a social nuance lens
to his work that I really appreciate and so dense truly,
while still just being entertaining like Spielbergy and
shit in the summer, which is Nope, which is a five star
movie. And I thought Barbarian was like

(31:42):
pretty close to that that year that came out in 2022.
This movie, I think it really istrying to say more like, look at
how we're all just like, pitted against one another, just like
neighbors trying to turn one another in.
You have how paranoid these Americans are.
You have how paranoid this community is trying to turn
public servants into like these like witch hunts, like a teacher

(32:04):
witch hunt that's happening in this movie.
And you have people trying to make sense of what you're saying
about how time has stopped because of this violence or this
loss or this grief. And they're trying to find
meaning and patterns meeting andand numbers.
It's very Zodiac coded, which isa movie I referenced with him.
And I was like, this really reminds me of Jake Gyllenhaal's
character in Zodiac. Just like Robert Gray Smith
losing his fucking mind and justfinding clues where there are no

(32:27):
clues just so we can. Make sense of this interesting
point. Yeah.
So yeah, Yeah. And I also think, you know, when
we were reading it, you're like,whoa, this feels like gone,
baby, gone. And it's so like just like crazy
coincidence like that Zach, you know, ended up casting like the
person from God baby gone that that we'll talk about as like

(32:47):
the amazing gladdest who I thinkthis movie like really lives or
dies on. And she just does such a good
job of being, like, so haunting.She's bouncing a wild amount of
tones. But I think to go back to your
your point, like, I love that idea of thinking about how like
people are trying to figure out like what happened and really

(33:08):
like this idea of weaponizing grief that you're talking about.
And, and everyone kind of pointing fingers are pointing
blame, especially when we get there, the great scenes of like
the, the auditorium scene with all the parents right from
Justine's class. And so like, I like those
moments. And I think that's a really
interesting like idea of Josh Brolin being like, I'm trying to

(33:30):
figure it out. Like tell me where you are.
Like, I want all these answers. So I.
Don't understand why. I don't understand why this is
happening. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
So like they're they're like kind of two aspects of this
because I know a lot of people boil map on like ideas like
school shootings for sure, right.
And especially with the the likegun above the house in in the

(33:51):
dream right where Jeff Brolin like sees his kid run into this
other house especially. When we learn his kids a bully
too. Yes, so that we'll, we'll
definitely get to that 'cause I think it's like great and, and
complicates this story in a really interesting way.
But yeah, so I think I think theidea of like these characters
searching for an answer, and especially Josh Brolin's
character being this like prominent character who feels

(34:13):
like he is so like valid and justified and is sure when he
actually like is not looking at the situation clearly that
that's really interesting. And he's not like he doesn't
have a, an approach of like, letme understand, it's like, let me
go into this because I'm so selfassured.
And he basically like raises thestakes of the situation and

(34:36):
makes everything worse. But you still like understand
where he's coming from to a certain extent.
Kind of like how the the cop is like, yeah, like, you know, the
cops are not reporting to you. That's why you haven't heard
about any other searches. Like, but I'm doing this because
I can't imagine what you what I would be going through if I were
in your situation. I think the audience, regardless
of like who you can map onto in this contemporary space of like

(34:58):
a a Brolin, you can there. There's a really like smart
conceit of like this person justlost his child.
And it also feels like a post suicide metaphor.
So you're also thinking. About that as like a part of
like how to read this and how you would react in the
situation. So that's really.
Yeah. And then it's like him
questioning, you know, or maybe like having the audience put

(35:18):
themselves in his shoes to question like, the reality that
he once had of like, being this baseball coach to his son and
being this great father and his son being this like, you know,
great kid who's bullying people at school, You know what I mean?
Like, yeah, ruining Alex's life.It's.
Making cracks in in his reality,even if he's not explicitly

(35:39):
communicating that to the audience.
So that's really smart and interesting.
But I I do love that idea of like of basically like mapping
or or clinging on to the wrong thing.
Yes. As like, what is the 217 mean?
What is all this? What do all these things mean?
Like in using horror again to like subvert that that idea of
like people looking for very specific answers.

(36:01):
And some of these film makers are just really good at putting
together conflicting vibes. Like we have a little girl who
we never really meet monologuingat the beginning of this movie,
while we have an instantly iconic group of children doing
airplane Naruto show running across streets under like this
dim lighting. And then you have all these
different camera movements trying to understand, make sense

(36:23):
of all these things going into this, like town of Maybrook at
this school meeting where you see the center of this, like
parental storm is Justine Gandy,a public school teacher, an
elementary school teacher from the third grade, played by Julia
Garner, who is one of the most like emotionally powerful actors
of her generation right now. One of the great screamers, one

(36:44):
of the great criers for fans of Ozark and fans of Ruth, in which
we are, you know, she is incredible, those two things.
And she was awesome as Silver Surfer and Fantastic Four as
well. Probably the best part of that
movie. And, you know, we see how she
shows up to school, finds her classroom empty.
It's just Alex sitting in the back.
And it's terrifying. And also, we should say for new

(37:05):
listeners, we're both educators.So, like, we've been pretty
vocal about how teachers are just misrepresented in movies.
And unfortunately, like, films because they're commercial art
form, like, have a major impact on culture and so can sometimes
perpetuate stereotypes about teachers and reduce education.
It's not being important and notto, you know, I guess monologue

(37:27):
about this. But I guess the one of the big
beginning, cool like introductory points of the movie
is that, oh, this is like a teacher witch hunt.
And then you're wondering, is the teacher of the witch?
Does that make sense? Like is he subverting that or
like what is he doing with this?And like, if you're again, if
you're putting yourself in the shoes of someone who's watching
this for the first time. Right.
Yeah, because you're like, does she maybe know something in in

(37:49):
this more detective lane of likea Zodiac movie of looking for
these children who have gone missing?
But yeah, no, I think I think definitely, definitely.
Like I obviously agree. We've talked about this on the
podcast a lot, so we won't rehash it in at length here.
But, you know, either making theteacher like a joke or having
this approach of like, I pay your salary.

(38:13):
You know, we've we've talked a lot about the different like
stereotypes about educators thatare like reproduced and
perpetuated in media, especiallyin comedies.
And I thought it was really refreshing to see here like,
yeah, that witch hunt around thecommunity and other like just I,
I think like people in the community, like besides Josh
Brolin and I think he probably represents a lot of other

(38:35):
parents who even like maybe don't even share politics,
right? Like their possible sentiments
and, and like a lot of the the visual cues, but also other
characters being like, she doesn't know anything, like she
doesn't know anything and you'regoing on this witch hunt.
And that that was like an interesting aspect of this that

(38:58):
I appreciated. Yeah, for international
listeners, like since Trump's first presidency, it's just been
like a a true attack on public education across the nation.
So this is one of the 1st moviesI've seen in the United States
that's even attempted do represent that.
I'm not saying it's like fully explored in the movie, No, yeah,
at least attempts to like present that.
As there's not American contradiction like a

(39:19):
contemporary commentary that people can tap into, like when
we left our past state, the governor created a tip line to
report teachers, you know, teaching certain subjects.
And so like, you know, there, there's obviously like that sort
of energy in the Josh Brolin character, right?
Even though it's not like fully,you know, explored in terms of
the context of the school, there's still those sentiments

(39:42):
among the the parents and kind of the them like chasing her out
of the school especially, right?Yeah.
What do we think about Julia Garner's performance as a
conflicted teacher, a conflictedperson of this community, a
flawed person? And Zach Craigers like
representation or like, I guess his his writing of Garner's
character being a little bit volatile in her conversations in

(40:05):
the bar with Alden Ehrenreich's cop character.
Because Craiger obviously wantedto write a complex person, man
or woman or just person in general in this film.
And I at first was I, I thought,we're going to follow a teacher
turned detective. Because that's kind of how the
screenplay reads to me. She's like a teacher turned

(40:25):
investigator, which she still does really, really dope.
She sort of is in this movie. But maybe I was just too close
to the material and just being ateacher myself that I kind of
felt like they reduced her to someone who wasn't really seeing
straight in all her and she was following the clues.
But just in as far as like following Alex a few times home
and thinking something wasn't right there.

(40:46):
But that was basically it. And I think maybe that's a
problem going back to what I said my my original criticism or
the non linear structure actually doesn't deepen the
characters in ways that I wantedto, especially our main
protagonist. So how did how did you feel
about the performance? In the writing, so I I liked her
character because she's kind of like a a more complex character,

(41:08):
I guess in terms of like being alittle messy like she sleeps
with her ex who she doesn't, butI mean to be fair to her, like
she was told like incorrect information, right Paul the the
cop character says like they're that he and Donna right.
We're on a break. So she's not like consciously

(41:30):
doing it, but we can tell they have like an interesting, I
guess, relationship with one another.
But also she is, I think she's areally interesting cast and I
like her performance. But at the same time, like
there's a a steeliness that Julia Garner is able to capture
in terms of like fuck off energythat she has at like the the gas

(41:53):
station with Josh Brolin. She's like, listen, you think
you're going to bother me? And you're not like you're just
being foolish and you're being weird.
Like stop. Stop approaching me like you
are. Yeah, when he when he lets her
flex like that, when Craiger lets Garner flex like that, it's
a lot of fun. Like she told the cashier, like
fucking help me. He's like not helping her.

(42:15):
Is Benedict Wong is chasing her down?
Yeah. So I think like that all is
great, but I, I think that there, there are moments of, of
like what you're talking about. And it's interesting because
with Julia Garner, she has this like really interesting steal,
right, like tough exterior whilestill being able to like when

(42:35):
she needs to deliver like a really emotional moment, though,
you're like, this is a tough person and she's like upset.
And I respect it. It's it doesn't feel like she's
breaking it. It's like a different thing.
And I, and I think she's so goodat that.
And it really works in scenes like the scream sequence at the
beginning where she's in her house alone comes home from, you

(42:58):
know, all the parents chasing after her.
Sure is basically told by one ofthe people at the school like,
hey, do you have anywhere else to go tonight besides your own
house? And she goes to she goes home,
which an amazing home for being a single teacher.
I don't know where they live or the the prices of houses.
Pennsylvania. Yeah, but but yeah, amazing home

(43:18):
and she's watching Shark Tank, which shout out to the guy who
came to see the movie Alone, which I think seeing movies
alone is awesome, but we were the only two people in the
theater to laugh at the Shark Tank sequence when it showed
Barbara using little string invention.
And I would love to ask Zach about why specifically he
includes Shark Tank here, but. Specificity is funny, yeah.

(43:42):
But I think it really works because she's saying like, who
the fuck is it? Like stand on business, I'll
open the door. But you just keep disappearing.
You know, like those moments of her being vulnerable but still
steely. It is really successful and you
are really invested in her character in those moments.
I think in the other moments where we see her doing the

(44:04):
investigation and like talking to Alex, there are moments of
like emotionality that because she's playing like, I know I'm
not guilty of things the town isaccusing me of and I'm just
trying to like figure out the situation.
But it seems like there's almosta, in terms of the performance.
You at certain points don't knowthe the particular emotional

(44:27):
investment in the moment. And I don't want a character to
be clear of being like, Oh my God, I'm a teacher who like
cares so much about my kids. I'll like die for my kids and
like we don't. That's not what I'm asking for.
I'm just saying that there are moments where it it's like, it
feels like it's serving the plotin terms of her like going
outside Alex's house or those those kind of moments.

(44:49):
So yeah, I I think that aspect, as well as the scene between her
and Paul, who can you just say his actors.
Alden Ehrenreich, I believe. I always feel like I
mispronounced his name so. But like they didn't have as
much chemistry as I would have wanted.
And I don't know that it's totally her fault as much as
like they just didn't mesh for me.

(45:11):
And there were certain moments too, that because I felt like
she was this like kind of tough character who had like a fuck
off energy and was kind of like level headed.
I didn't love how she like received some of the kind of
benevolent sexism of Paul being like, can I tell you something

(45:33):
as someone who really knows you?And then proceeds to say that
she like has this woe is me. I think that is like probably a
different commentary in terms ofaddressing someone who's close
to her. They obviously have a past
relationship and him talking to her specifically and maybe her
like journey with addiction. So I but I but unfortunately it

(45:57):
comes off in a, in a gendered way as well that I feel like
this character would have been like fuck off a little bit.
So, so there are moments like that that just like, I don't
think the actor's chemistry was like totally sparking for me as
these like ex exes who are now seeing each other again and and
they're both in kind of really low points in their lives.

(46:21):
So yeah. I know the bar scene was the
worst scene in the movie. I thought the chemistry was off,
the dialogue didn't feel right, the set design was like felt in
a bad way. Like I just felt like I was in a
deleted scene a little bit. But I know they needed to be
introduced to one another or just felt off a little bit.
I'm not sure why, but it's good to hear that you felt similarly
because I was in my head about it the whole movie.
Well, I genuinely think it was their chemistry because you

(46:43):
know, some of them I for some reason, I'm thinking about Logan
Lucky and how that bar scene is so like.
Wait, which bar scene in particular?
Oh, they're, well, you know how they they own a a bar?
Random bar. Right.
But it feels like they are on a set like, you know, it's like
there's, there's. A comedy to the artifice.
Yeah, which was not like meant to be here, but you know,

(47:05):
there's there's also this like emotionality and chemistry that
Channing Tatum and Adam Brody have with each other, like the
the lovers in the film brothers.But the But yeah, like there,
there's like that, which I know it's a totally different movie I
love. It from you though.
Classic Kelsey. But I do think that, yeah, I
just think the chemistry betweenthe actors was off because, you

(47:27):
know, something like that kit could save.
Like I feel like I'm in this setup bar.
I will say, like Zach is really tell bent on this idea of having
characters who you sympathize with and are still critical of
decisions they make. And he does that a lot with
Alden Ehrenreich's cop figure ashe puts like one of the most
like universal fears and realizes in the movie, which is

(47:48):
like, do you have a needle in your pocket?
Do you no, no, get stabbed by the needle?
And it's like, fuck, this is like worst case scenario.
And then he assaults the guy andthen he gets out his shotgun
later to do who knows what and unplugs his camera.
And then Zach does something really interesting where he
plays into like how you feel badfor this sort of like
sympathetic mustache wearing B Tom Selleck, who is recovering

(48:12):
from like self medicating and islooking at Julia Garner like
she's a mess and kind of having to deal with the the shittiness
of being a beat cop, I guess, only to then appear him like, I
guess depict him to be sort of like fragile and having way too
much power and being violent. And I think that was like smart
contrast in the writing. He tries to do that.
Julia Garner's character. I just don't think it works

(48:33):
enough because Julia Garner's character is, what's her name,
Justine? Justine is again like going
through this like modern day Salem witch trial, which is this
attack on public educators beingthe easiest person to like
publicly shame for all of society's issues.
So the fact that she also has all these issues that are messy
in her personal life, I think doesn't feel fair to the

(48:55):
character because by the end of the movie, she's like this
detective and I that that I guess jump with her and Brolin
like teaming up was cool. And I think one of the best
parts of the movie, I would say the Brolin Garner team up part
of the movie is second most interesting, subtly, whatever to
call it, plot, plot of the movie#1 being Austin Abrams and his

(49:17):
whole story and arc. That's by far the most
interesting and funniest bit andsaddest bit of the movie, I
think. And then I would say Alex and
then Gladys saw a lot of conflicted feelings about what's
going on over there that we'll get to.
So let's get more into Josh Brolin.
So, Brolin, unless you want to say something else about Julia
Garner's character. No, no.
Yeah, I think we got it all. OK, Brolin plays Archer, who

(49:42):
comes off as like an ex militarydad who his son is missing, like
all these other parents in this movie.
And he's really great at playing, you know, sad, imposing
brutes. That's like Josh Brolin's thing
thinks Sicario and in this moviethinks Sicario.
And he voted Trump and like hates critical race theory or
something, right? Like very 2020, you know, parent

(50:04):
of an elementary school student and he has like all this grief
and all this guilt and you get nightmare sequences from him
again. I miss some of the Brolin
chapter because of what did I say this already?
But the shit that happened at our movie theater where somebody
like crashed out and I like leave for a second.
But anyways what I was going to.Say is which we we won't go into
OK, but I was annoyed that I hadto like sit in the theater with

(50:27):
someone who somebody crashed outwas like extremely rude to
basically like staff at at the. Alamo Draft House, which we will
not take, shout out the staff atall movie theaters, but
especially Alamo Draft House andwhat they have to like, I don't
know, keep up with with some of that clientele.
But I think also horror movies, people are a little bit on edge.
I like the horror community. Well, yeah, I mean, you were the

(50:49):
only person who got up to like go, you know, deal with or just
and not deal with in a, in a waywhere you were like, I guess
trying to to approach the situation, deescalate.
But yeah. Just check on.
I mean, he was clearly yelling at like a woman, so.
Yeah, behind the scenes of the theater.
Yeah. And then, yeah.
But all these these men who lovehorror and are like in.
If I were in that situation, I would have just watched.

(51:12):
You Where's our Josh Brolin's? Where are the Josh?
Brolin, I'm sure they were sitting there in their seats.
Wait, am I the Josh Brolin dad? I'm just kidding.
But Berlin's great in this movie, You know, I love Berlin,
but he's Santos, you know? But he has a couple of moments
in this movie where he gets to be not just like the imposing
asshole father, but he like wakes up from a nightmare and

(51:32):
goes, what the fuck? And it's really funny.
And what he. Sees Gladys's face on on his
kid, Yeah. Yeah, and I'm not good with jump
scares, so I kind of do when I close, when I'd open.
I saw you trying to like look down whenever it's something
that that's acted so well here was create this tension anytime
we knew we were going to see Gladys, like you just feel your

(51:54):
body kind of freeze. What was your favorite?
One cringe, I think it maybe wasI I think the Justine one was
interesting where she pops out of the ceiling because it's like
the first time I think I know you're looking down where she
thinks someone's in her house, which is very like barbarian in
terms of how Tess sees the door open and then we we kind of pan

(52:15):
over to see her look at Keith. Yeah, having a bad nightmare on
the couch and and here she like hears a noise in her house and
looks around the OR down the hallway essentially.
And then Gladys pops up on the ceiling.
I think that the there, I mean, it's hard because there are a
lot of just very unnerving ones,right?
Like Josh Berlin basically pleading to his kid to tell him

(52:37):
where he is, kind of apologizingto him.
And then the turnover of like a child's body with Gladys's face
on it is certainly terrifying. But I think really the one that
gets me, for whatever reason, and maybe this is just my love
towards the Austin Abram part ofthe movie, is the forest scene.
That's exactly what I was going to use the the IT Pennywise

(52:58):
clown hiding in the forest behind a Bush looking at Austin
Abrams as they look like they dothe jaws like Hitchcock reverse
Dolly zoom on Abrams face. And he's got an incredibly
expressive face in this movie. He's always been a very comedic
actor, but I don't think I've ever seen him do like this
amount of like what feels like sketch com what feels like like

(53:20):
he's doing a bit for the entire film, but for whatever reason,
he takes over the movie every time he's on screen.
He he it kind of he kind of makes the movie work in a lot of
ways. Obviously Gladys in like that
performance and the kid who plays Alex.
We'll get into a second make thetension of the movie work, the
horror of the movie work. But Abrams gives this movie so
much levity to the degree that I've seen some critics misread

(53:42):
it as like a dark comedy horror movie as barbarian is because
this is not that. This is more reflective, like
suspenseful psychological horrorsadness on in this movie, Abrams
is just next level. And I think what once we get to
his place like it does, do I really enjoy being in his like
section of the movie because of what you're talking about being

(54:04):
this in the seriousness of all the other characters in this
more detective ask thriller movie with still, you know,
witches are popping out of like the ceiling and shit.
But once we get to his his part of the movie, we are able to
just, I, I think like sink into the world a little bit more and

(54:25):
the absurdity that is Gladys. There were like movie scene
stealing bits, though, like whatwas the one where he was he was
like hitting all the car doors again, Zach is just really good
at showing you something super tragic and then finding a way to
give give you some kind of a release of humor and comedy, but
to only let you like reflect on it, which is like this this kid,

(54:46):
well, Austin Abrams is almost 30, but he looks, you know, you
know, in that younger age group of a late teen, early 20 year
old, right? Like he looks like he's 1920
years old and seeing this guy walk around looking into cars,
finding this child's like old backpack, trying to sell our pun
off the screen or tablet that hefinds as he's like on the phone
trying to get a deal to happen. And I thought Craiger did a

(55:08):
really good job of knowingly or not, because I don't know if he
would if he was on the spot right now.
I think he might say that wasn'tnot was not intentional.
But I don't believe him of this like American paradox where
you're seeing this community whois pausing life to rescue these
like stolen children. And the reality is that Craiger
is, you know, interrogating is do does this community really

(55:30):
care about their kids? Do they really care?
And the idea here is that once akid ages out and they become
Austin Abrams and whatever age this character is, all of a
sudden empathy disappears. And now he's forced to live in
this like, forest by himself and, like, fend for himself and
have to go to, like, the pawn shop to, like, make any kind of
money. To eat or something hard to
like, get close to have a job interview.

(55:52):
Yeah, and he's like self medicating on drugs and getting
punched in the face by cops and being asked to like, please
don't come back to this area so I don't get fired.
I I think it's a tragic character, but Abrams plays it
so comedically well that I thinksome people are misreading that
as if like it's just AI don't know like a gag in the movie and
being like it doesn't have any ideas.

(56:12):
I'm like, that's an idea right there.
That, you know, no, I think that's true because we are so
immersed in this idea that people like care about their
community. At least that's what the Josh
Brolins right, of the story and the energy from the other
parents is kind of pointing towards this idea of that
there's this collective care. We want to know what happened to
our kids and we want answers. And so that that kind of

(56:37):
antagonistic energy that on the surface is I guess suggested and
I guess also portrayed as like we care and This is why we want
answers instead of like thinkingabout their self-interest maybe
in their own particular child and not maybe the actual
community. Is this really interesting

(56:59):
tension of suburbia. And you know, we don't really go
into it. I think it's it's actually
really interesting thing that itcame out when Eddington did in
the summer of like horror. But yeah, there's like this
tension of suburbia of like wealth to and self-interest from
the parents that isn't totally yeah gone into.

(57:21):
But I think with Austin, with the introduction of Austin,
Abrams character does certainly question.
Yeah, well, I like how both movies basically try to become
microcosms of whatever we're feeling right now in America
culturally and politically and kind of emotionally in the
divisiveness of like neighbor against neighbor and which is

(57:41):
very real. And both movies, you know, one's
being more transparent about it and more direct about it, which
is obviously Eddington and I think more layered as a as a
film. Whereas Weapons is like still
sticking to this like fairy taleconceit that there's a giant
like kind of demonic witch who'slike trapping kids and like jump
scaring Josh Brolin in the basement.

(58:01):
And like, so he's still fucking around with us a little.
Bit I mean, they're, they're different movies.
Right, like. Ari Astor was like explicitly
trying to, you know, look at that.
And I feel like Zach wasn't hereas much.
He was going more in the StephenKing supernatural aspect but.
Yeah, so Austin Abrams, really good, probably deserves extra

(58:24):
credits. I'll give it to him now.
He's had a really interesting career.
I just want to shout out some movies that we saw him from
early on in his career. There was a film or TV series
called Dash and Lily. Oh yeah.
Which was like a Christmas Netflix thing that I enjoyed.
He was in Kings of Summer. Paper Towns has a pretty cool
career. Last year, a couple years ago,
he was in Due Revenge, which is a movie that made me cringe for

(58:45):
three days straight. But he was interesting in it
because he's just, again, a talented comedic actor.
Yeah. Sean Fantasy on the Big Picture
had Zach Craiger on. And Craiger said that Austin
Abrams is going to be starring in his Resident Evil film.
Yeah. Which is very exciting.
Yeah. Pretty wild.
Like a huge break for Abrams. That's exactly what I was going

(59:06):
to ask you, because I think he'sbeen looked at as sort of like
the B Timothy Chalamet. Like if the wolves, George
Clooney and Brad Pitt can't get Chalamet to be their third guy,
Let's just get Abrams. He sort of looks like him and
has that. What?
What is that character that Chalamet plays in that?
Oh, and don't look up. Don't look up.
That's what I felt like Abrams was channeling here.
You know, this is maybe a hot take and I love Timmy in that

(59:27):
space. Don't say it, but I think Abrams
does that better than Timmy. Like that particular type of
like character. You don't.
You disagree. Yeah, I disagree.
I agree to disagree then. Timmy hasn't let himself do a a
bit like this for that long. Like he isn't like he is a
couple key. I think you're forgetting how
funny he is about like that. I didn't say it, Tim, no.

(59:49):
In that movie, The Xbox thing, the.
No, yeah. I just think that like Abrams is
a little bit more believable. I think it has to do too with
like us seeing Timothy Chalamet and so many different types of
movies that it felt like he was just doing a purely a bit
instead of like the the character that is there.
I bet listeners agree with you. I just felt attacked personally.

(01:00:11):
OK, so let's talk about Alex, played by Kerry Christopher.
I don't think this young man hasever been in a movie.
I thought he was amazing, the child.
I thought he was really good. He has a lot to do as a young
actor in terms of being scared, having to like have this face on
going to school and not tell anyone, the cops or his

(01:00:33):
teachers, you know, what is going on at home and he doesn't.
And then also having to run fromhis possessed parents and also
feed them soup and. Be like, yeah.
You bet everyone soup like that must have taken hours for Alex
to do. But but yeah, I think also, you

(01:00:54):
know, he he carried those soup cans for a long way.
You know, there's some like child comparisons of like a
Rocky workout essentially with carrying those soup cans home
from from school in those shopping bags.
But. I also like that as a good
metaphor for like, this kid maybe coming from a broken home,
like having to like, help his parents survive, which is like
something people obviously go through.
That was very real. Yeah.

(01:01:14):
So, but I think in terms of his performance, he he did a really
good job. When I went back to see the
conversation we had with Zach after we read the screenplay, I
was like, whatever you do, like look for a Hailey Joel Osment
kid. And I thought that was such a
stupid thing to say because it'slike telling a director who's
going to cast a kid, make sure you cast like one of the great
child performers ever. But he did literally cast

(01:01:35):
somebody who was so 6th sense coded in terms of this like
little boy who's like innocent and disarming, but also like
kind of like strong willed and how he was able to take in all
these like and there's no ghosts.
He's able to to kind of calculate their of what Gladys
is telling him. Like you see him figuring out in
his mind that, I mean, obviouslythere is a moment with the forks
where she demonstrates exactly what she will do if he doesn't

(01:01:59):
like go along with it and not tell anyone about her or or his
parents, which is terrifying. It was used in in the the
trailers. But you know, any sort of like,
you know, she snaps the the stick and they start stabbing
themselves in the face with a fork.
And any sort of fork to face violence is terrifying.
But yeah, he he does a good job shifting in emotions from fear

(01:02:25):
to being like scared of her specifically to understanding.
And that's that's pretty tough to do.
Absolutely. I thought it was wonderful.
Amy Madigan as Gladys Lilly. The first time we see her, I
think, is when she comes into Benedict Wong's principal's
office. And he's also very good in this

(01:02:45):
movie. And we see him in a few moments.
We see him talking to Justine totell her to go home and at the
grocery store with his partner. And there's a really funny
moment of him like basically notfiring her but telling her to
like stay home and stuff. Looking into Alexis situation as
his partners, like showing him the cookies or the cereal.

(01:03:05):
I don't know why they just made me laugh and featured a lot.
It was one of the funniest bits of the movie.
And we see her come into the office, she talks to him.
They have a good kind of like was like, again, there's
something disarming about all ofZach Cragers writing and his
characters, but especially in Amy Madigans performance as
like, you know, there's not something quite right with this
person and like what she is doing.

(01:03:26):
And the principal sort of knows this too.
But also she's like a very sensitive approach to this
conversation, which makes her feel like there's she's not a
threat, Like there's something going on in the way that she's
carrying these different tones. There's an eerie, like
jolliness, right? Yeah, again, very like Penny
Wise in that way. But eventually she goes to his

(01:03:48):
house and we see the most gruesome scene in the.
Movie One of the best scenes in the movie.
Oh, interesting. Yeah, I was going to ask you.
That's what I was going to ask you because I don't know if it
worked totally for me. Oh, OK.
I felt like I needed number one relationship that felt like real
and I I believed in like the emotional connection between

(01:04:09):
Wong's character. And then I'm not sure who played
his partner. I don't have.
It I don't have the yeah, he wasgood too cast pull up, but yeah.
So like Clayton Ferris as Terry.Yeah, so I liked like feeling
like I was actually going into someones home where people were
like living in it, where I thinkJustine and the cop felt a

(01:04:29):
little bit more forced. So there was more terror in that
moment because of Gladys like coming to their home, being like
I need water, I miss the bus, whatever, you know.
And I was like don't let her in.You know, I was doing the horror
thing of like talking to the screen.
And, and this is also really interesting because of like

(01:04:50):
being an educator and, and the stakes, right, of like what is
happening right now where peopleare actually like fearing for
their personal safety. It's like, don't let them in.
Don't let like a, a parent in who is already maybe like
disgruntled or whatever, right? And so that aspect of it, first

(01:05:11):
of her like showing up at the door.
That was pretty cool. You're right.
The the partner being like no, yeah, come get some and.
He's like, no. No, please God, no.
But then the I I think also there are moments to that that
really worked for me because theanother sub genre of horror
where there's like the strangersaspect of it coming into your
home and demanding things that they're kind of you know, this

(01:05:33):
happens in like speak no evil, which is Zach talked about as
like a a movie that he really liked.
We didn't see the remake, but this has aspects of it of like
someone in your home and you're in this case it was flipped
where the people who own the home are like pushing seeing how
far they can get right where we normally.
Parasitical, which is like the movie or thing they're watching.

(01:05:56):
The partners are watching Cordyceps, the fungus eating
thing. On the bug.
And then I think they're tying that to like family members,
like being parasitical, to like these public servants,
essentially. Yeah, I and I think I would be
interested too 'cause I know Zach said he didn't really love
like that last part of Speak No Evil and we felt the same way.
So I'd be interested in next time we talk to him to, to talk

(01:06:19):
to him about that. But anyway, so Speak No Evil is
an example of that. But like more home invasion
movies are, are the better example of this, right, where
people are like coming in funny games, strangers, whatever.
But like when she asks for the bowl instead of like a glass of
water, I was in like, I I just think those things really work
for me. And I think they're the most

(01:06:41):
terrifying. Like aspect is pushing these
social, you know, these social polite rules and ultimately you
like, you know, the character isin danger and they don't know
that kind of, you know, like dramatic irony really works on
me. And then this is also when we're
first introduced to the the stick that she slices her palm

(01:07:04):
open with. And it's like, oops.
So the the strangeness of that horrific, like image of someone
slicing their palm open and the comedy involved and the like,
stranger home invasion aspects of this along with kind of like
mapping on a contemporary I kindof idea too.

(01:07:28):
And the the only thing is I hatehead smashing.
Oh my God. It makes me like I the Justin
Long eyes, the, you know, scars guard head smash, this head
smash. Like it's a lot for me.
Yeah, and that was the only part.
I mean, not that I dislike it, Iunderstand why it's there, but
it's hard for me to watch regardless that it it worked for
me because I love to be different.

(01:07:50):
Like tonal shifts that were all happening so seamlessly in this
movie. I wish we did get a little bit
more wrong. I think he did a good job in his
initial conversation with her where he's like, unfortunately,
like he's doing this really great comedic thing where he's
like having to directly or sorry, indirectly say something

(01:08:12):
to her, like I have to talk to her parents.
But there is a really funny backand forth between Goddess and
him, his character in that moment.
But so so the the moment at homein the kitchen didn't work for
you. I think it is symbolic of what
doesn't work for me in the movie, which is the non linear
structure just really disengagedme.

(01:08:33):
And when we're cutting back and forth between points of views
and perspectives right around here, I was like, OK, I wish
more of the movie was like this.So I I think I'm convinced that
the scene was good and effectiveand interesting, but the rest of
the film felt like very repetitive.
Once you just once you discover that Gladys is this witch figure

(01:08:54):
who like meets like random womanon like HGTV kind of energy,
that's when the movie starts getting really repetitive And
like re showing you a lot of things in the movie from
different perspectives that you already seen without giving you
much pay off to that repetition that I feel like the movie can't
then live up to some of the horror in the film or suspense
in the film. You don't really care.

(01:09:15):
I don't know. Do people care that much about
where the kids actually are in the movie at that point, or the
investigation between Julia Gardner and Josh Brolin and like
going on the map and getting themeasured and tape backed out
like how we had in Barbarian? Yeah, I just felt like there was
during. The basement, yeah.
I was struggling to hold on to something.
I was interested in every scene I was watching, but I was

(01:09:36):
struggling to hold on to like a through line emotionally.
I saw the things intellectually in there.
The other critics just seemed tonot want to see or didn't like,
which is fine, but it was more like emotionally, I couldn't
stay with one character, protagonist or antagonist long
enough to really care all that much.
And I kept reflecting on it's because I know what's happening
every scene. Is it because I know and I'm not

(01:09:57):
sure. Still, I think I have to see it
again. So I have hopefully that answers
your question. But like, I, I do think you're
right in that scene there, thereis like a that she is like
literalizing what Craig has beenexploring.
And it's like suburban nightmareof like the fears of domesticity
or like the fears of like this supposedly normal community when
everyone's like using domestic items to kill one another, like

(01:10:20):
forks in the face or like a, a potato peeler or whatever on the
skin of Alden Ehrenreich, Like shit like that.
I it again intellectually works emotionally, I just couldn't
hold on too much. Well, I think, yeah.
So, you know, we talked about Zodiac a little bit, but I think
something that is so successful about Zodiac, besides it being
like one of the most like infamous serial killer stories

(01:10:42):
and yeah, but is Jake Gyllenhaalkind of being the Justine
character that we follow. And there's that investigative
piece of this. And so I think because we go
from Justine to Brolin, which I'm still like locked into their
parts of the movie. But once we, yeah, once we start
seeing like the Paul segment of the movie, which is like the cop

(01:11:03):
and then Austin Abrams part of the movie, which I love, but
then is kind of like a repeat incertain scenes of watching him
get hit by Paul. That was when I started to feel
like, OK, I'm just seeing the same scene in certain aspects.
But in in those particular moments, it didn't really add
much for me. So like, because they weren't,

(01:11:24):
they weren't crucial to like that particular part of it
wasn't crucial to the the mystery of it all.
Yeah, I agree. So every time I saw an original
scene I was excited. Like when Austin Abrams
character does go into the Gladys house and he sees the DVD
of. Willow, Willow.
No, he sees the VHS. Yeah, Willow, Willow.
Which I also would like to say the guy next to me who laughed

(01:11:47):
at the Shark Tank, you know, image of Barbara also laughed at
the Willow. So shout out to that guy.
Hopefully he's a listener. Almost turned to him and shook
his hand. Willow that.
Would be so weird mid horror film.
Yeah. So I guess that's that's
basically why I'm conflicted is that I think this was just like
tragically fun and funny and very weird and has memorable

(01:12:09):
scenes and horror moments. I just wish that it resonated a
little bit more emotionally because I think if we could have
stayed with one character long enough to really get to know
them a little bit better than the Grimm fairy tale, you know,
Stephen King Midsummer hereditary energy could have
been more felt. The special part about
hereditary and the special part about Midsummer and what Ary

(01:12:31):
Astor so good about kind of creating these modern fairy
tales that are fucked up is thathe makes them feel as mythic as
they are grounded. And this movie feels mostly
elevated. It takes a grounded concept,
which is like the fear of losingyour child or how you deal with
grief and how you compartmentalize grief and like
whether it's self medicating or putting your shit on other

(01:12:52):
people or burying it. But then as soon as we get to
the kind of like the mystery andthe witchiness of it all, I
think the movie sort of loses track of it's like character
drama. And I really wanted more of that
kind of like psychological talkie character drama that we
got in that first act that I wasreally excited to see.
Yeah, I really think it it mightbe the the Paul and the

(01:13:15):
principal like moments. I know they were probably
shorter, but it kind of like I like their seeing what was up
with their characters in connection to Austin Abrams and
to Justine. And I think, you know, again,
like Wong does a really good jobcomedically having this like
more interesting complex relationship to Gladys's
character as like a parent of the school and extension Brolin

(01:13:39):
and then also like Justine and they're like Co worker
relationship. He's also great in that physical
set piece where he used to like him sprinting and he he has a
lot to do actually in this movie.
Yeah, So like, so it's not that I don't want to spend like time
with his character, but it's it's more so yeah, I think that
I'm jumping around from people who don't have as it doesn't
feel at times have as much of a stake in the child mystery of

(01:14:01):
who went missing. That that was what I think like
took me out of it. Then when we went to Austin
Abrams and he's like looking at the as he's selling things,
right, And then looks at the $50,000 reward for the kids that
he just saw in the basement. Like it really picks up again
and then he. Stabs the cop again three times
in the face. That shit was really funny.

(01:14:21):
Yeah, it was good and I, I was sad when he got like possessed
at at the end. And then he kept jumping.
Like cartoonishly, like Looney Tunes style at Josh Brolin.
He kept throwing him across the room, getting tired.
Yeah, a great bit. It was really good.
And, and I think that was that end sequence was like I, I was
wondering how he, you know, Zachwas going to do that because
there was a lot of different moving pieces.

(01:14:44):
And I, I think like there were successful parts of it that were
like comedic and there were really scary parts of it that,
you know, with Gladys being like, don't step over the salt,
like leaves the area. But once we have Justine go into
the house and have the cop character like wave her in, at

(01:15:05):
that point, I was invested in the investigation with her and
Brolin's character, but I wasn'tlike as connected to her as the
the kind of like Zodiac figure that I'm talking about, which is
not compared to like I'm not comparing the films like Zodiac
and these are totally different movies.
But at that point where she's getting choked out, I'm I'm not

(01:15:26):
caring as much about who's dying, if that makes sense at
the end of the movie. And like, yeah, I'm.
It's terrifying to see these like 2 parents who are chasing
after their child for Alex, which it was cool.
Craigor didn't say this explicitly, but there was like,
I think maybe it was a letterbox.
I'm forgetting the outlet, but said or had an interview with

(01:15:47):
him where he said that he was really inspired by The Shining
and the twin scene down the hallway really messed him up.
And so like we have the image ofthe two parents, like kind of
the twin scene standing at the end of the hallway and then
chase Alex. But yeah, at that point I was
like, OK, they're going to find the kids.
But we because we were already told where they are from Abrams

(01:16:07):
finding them in the basement where he's like, whoa.
And and also we forgot to mention like his whole
interaction with the parents wasfunny too.
Just seeing seeing the parents, which we forgot to to talk about
through the the newspaper and highlighting also like a issue
with the institution of like, I went to like check and there's a

(01:16:29):
concern that this kid isn't safe.
So like, can we just figure out how to see if this kid is safe
and seeing those parents, like just sitting there.
That was also a good like jump scare kind of situation.
But regardless, once we get towards the end and I'm like,
maybe Justine's going to die. It's I almost like she could
have died or not. It was it was satisfying to see

(01:16:50):
her like win or be a final girl type of archetype.
I guess so, but I didn't really care when she killed her cop
boyfriend. Oh, no, not at all.
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't think even people who like this movie, I would be
surprised if you felt something that I don't think even Zach is
attending to do that. I felt more like, you know what?

(01:17:11):
This reminded me of Rosemary's Baby quite a lot.
And maybe it's the horror. Well.
Definitely with the Gladys character.
I think, well, he's clearly influenced by Hereditary and Ari
in this movie. You know, I think that has a
big, you know, inspiration of the film.
And I, I Rosemary's Baby is the main inspiration for Hereditary.
And I thought a lot about Ruth Gordon's mini Cassavette in that

(01:17:33):
movie. Who is the?
Older woman trying to get the devil to basically be born
again. And it's like the last 30
minutes of weapons plays like mini Cassavette gets to do
exposition dumping about how she's trying to get her youth
back. Does that make sense?
And I just don't find that all that interesting when we're with

(01:17:55):
this protagonist who has this like juicy subtext and back
story with this parent figure who's now she's been forced to
work with, you know, this like seemingly humanitarian like
progressive person being forced to work with like the local ex
military conservative guy. That's like a funny duo, like a
buddy cop horror comedy they could have leaned into.
They try to toward the end of the movie when he's doing, like,

(01:18:17):
research and going into Justin Long's house.
Yeah, we. Forgot to talk about that.
Which is a great scene, but I think you probably get my point,
which is to say, like, I don't know why we did such a good job
of jumping back and forth between perspectives.
And then the last 30 minutes is like, once the shoe drops, you
know, it's a witch. We get all the exposition of
like how she did it and how Alexor like his parents.
And it took a long time for me to get to the very end when we

(01:18:41):
see the kids in the basement andJosh Brolin goes in there with
Julia Garner. Yeah, yeah, I I would say that
too. I think you know, we talked
about like why I guess with the the different time jumps, I
think though the end like reallypaid off in terms.
Of absolutely. But the kids?
The kids, yeah, chasing her and Alex kind of figuring out how

(01:19:03):
this whole stick system works inorder to entrance all the kids
to to chase after the Gladys character.
Yeah, we just watched Point Break again like a week ago.
Oh my God, yeah. And there is a handheld camera
move that Bigelow and her team making that movie when they have
Keanu chasing down. Patrick Swayze.

(01:19:24):
Thank you, Patrick Swayze. And it's just an iconic movie,
an iconic sequence. It's one of our favorite like
A+B movies, like just an amazingfilm.
Five stars. I don't care what anybody says.
Love it. And he he basically recreates
that that well. It was so funny because when we
were watching it and we left, you're like, why did this remind
me of we just watched a movie that had like very similar

(01:19:45):
visual style and then and then we were like, oh, point break
And he in his conversation with Sean, he brought up point break,
which is wild. That just a coincidence that we
had just watched that because like, who has recently watched
Point Break? Yeah, it's such a fun reference.
Yeah, By the way, Sean, he's coming on the pod again.

(01:20:07):
Yeah, he's been on the pod twice.
Damien Chazelle, Ridley Scott. This time it seems like we're
going to do an episode. Horror adjacent.
Adjacent maybe on the new wave of horror film makers, including
directors like the ones we've been talking about in this
episode or we'll see. You'll try time now with the
director that we have coming on.But yeah, go listen to that
interview he had with Zach Gregory was that excellent

(01:20:28):
conversation. But we are going to have fantasy
on again sometime soon. So what do you want to talk
about? I guess just the the two scenes
that were really funny in here, the the Justin Long one, which
you just like referenced of JoshBrolin waiting outside talks to
the mom, who I think is played by Sarah Paxton, which is Zach's

(01:20:48):
partner. And she was like, I'm not
comfortable with you, like watching the Ring camera.
And he waits till dad gets home and.
He's one of the funniest. Jokes the steps in into Justin
Long space. And Justin Long is like, sure,
yeah. Like he just.
I love Justin Long's energy. He's so funny.
Well, just to say, Kelsey understood the rhythm of that

(01:21:10):
joke faster than I did. I don't know if I was just slow
on it. Listeners let us know but when
he asks Sarah Paxton can come in, she's like no.
And he goes to someone elses house.
He's eating a sandwich in his car and then Justin Long arrives
and he asked Justin Long. I thought it was a different he
was. Like waiting outside of homes,
Okay. Yeah, we didn't see him get in
his car and wait there in front of her house.
And so when it cuts to him sitting at the computer and

(01:21:30):
Justin longs there and the camera moves over a little bit
and you see Sarah Paxton in the background, I thought that was
the joke reveal. And then I was like, wait, I
just might not get that immediately it.
Was really funny. It was great I just love that
Justin Long I hope he's in like all of Zach's projects.
He's just so good in a horror world and specifically Zach's
tone like the I think one of my favorite parts of barbarian is

(01:21:53):
the AJ subplot is like measuringthe basement is Googling.
Can I put this as like the full area of the house and, and him
going through all these like horrifying, violent, you know,
suggestive images of like cages and shit and he's just like
sick. Dude.
I mean like, I just like I thinkhim, his and Zach's energy in

(01:22:16):
terms of Zach's vision is like perfect.
So hope he returns, but but yeah, so and then the the end,
right. So we have this like really big,
loud like ending of people killing each other and possessed
trying to kill each other at thehands of Gladys snapping sticks.
And then we have Gladys, you know, recognize that Alex

(01:22:41):
snapped the stick to have all the the children in the basement
come, you know, chase after her.Yeah.
Oh, and I forgot Josh Brolin also gets possessed.
I forgot about that. He does, for sure.
Yeah, but that moment of, of herrunning away and going oh, like,
it wasn't just her running away.It was the kids smashing out of

(01:23:02):
the house like all the windows like 20.
Years later, so. Yeah, yeah.
And all collectively like these children's, you know, screams as
they're chasing her, like through the the.
Neighborhood. Yeah, like looking behind her
that that whole sequence is so funny.

(01:23:22):
There's a. Random lady in her house, Josh
Brolin walks in. There's a random man.
In her house, adding the certain, you know, comedic
things about the suburbia setting of the movie where the
dad is mowing the lawn, sees allthese kids go by.
They just smashed through his house and he's like, look what
they did to the lawn. You know, like, those things
really work. And then the kind of really

(01:23:44):
gruesome, elevated, strange, gory ending of these children
pulling apart Gladys's body was.I was surprised, yeah.
I didn't, actually. That was one of the only things
I didn't remember from the screenplay.
It was like, how did this end again?
And to see them just, like, destroy her, it was kind of
surprising. But I do like how it ends on a

(01:24:05):
tragic note, which, just like, Josh Brolin feels satisfied.
He has his child now, but his child apparently isn't speaking.
And we have that little girl monologue again about how most
of the kids still haven't talked, I think.
Which that also feels that voicelike I don't remember Osmond
like his voice in 6th sense but it seems like an adjacent voice

(01:24:26):
in my head. Yeah, yeah, I did feel like
that. Should we get to extra credits?
Yeah. Or was there another comedy
scene? I think that was it.
Yeah. I just was really surprised,
like pleasantly surprised by thecomedy in in the ending.
I felt like it really paid off. Yeah.
So my extra credit is Gladys like, but specifically it is Amy

(01:24:51):
Madigan's performance is Gladys because again, this movie, I
said it before, but lives or dies on this performance.
Like you have to have someone who is so specific for this
role. Like she is playing this like
elderly woman who is having to show up like in a principal's
office and have somewhat of a serious conversation, but still

(01:25:15):
be kind of haunting, a little like scary, a little bit quirky.
And then also be terrifying in the Alex moments, right?
Where you're like, oh, this kidslife is on the line.
She actually is really this dangerous, menacing figure.
And what is her back story, right?
Like all those things need to behappening.

(01:25:35):
She needs to capture the danger and being straightforward, but
also the mystery behind her character and also playing in
this like fairy tale archetype of this witchy character.
And that's really, really difficult to do.
And so I, I think that the moviewouldn't have possibly worked
without her 'cause it's just a hard, you know, role to cast.

(01:25:56):
And she did such a good job. One of Shyamalan's like one of
my favorite movies from him thatis often like under discussed in
his filmography is The Visit where two kids go to visit their
grandparents. I believe.
Yeah, who are, and I don't want to spoil it, but it is actually
eerily similar to the end of this movie and how it's kind of
set up like what? Who these people are.
That is such a funny comparison.I love the visit.

(01:26:21):
I think that it is such an underrated shaman.
Yeah, masterpiece. So funny.
OK, yeah, but yeah, it's it's really good.
That's that's so funny and but in interestingly, though, while
those the characters are memorable, certainly.
The rapping white kid. No, I meant like the older
characters. They.
Still feel like, I mean, there'san interesting balance that's

(01:26:44):
going on there where they're notsupposed to be these like main
characters in the way that Gladys is.
But but yeah, I I think that's areally interesting movie to to
watch alongside this. I'm going to give extra credit,
so I already did the Austin Abrams, but I'm going to just
give extra credits and I don't want to repeat myself here, so I
apologize if I do. But just to the the themes of

(01:27:05):
this movie, because I think the discussion around weapons thus
far is that it's a really entertaining film, but it feels
kind of hollow. And I think that's a fine, I
guess criticism of it emotionally for the most part,
if you can't hold onto a character because that's
literally my experience, I guess.
But until actually, I thought this was like, even even though

(01:27:26):
it wasn't as straightforward as Barbarian, I thought it was
really complex and how it handles trauma, how it gets
weaponized. Not to use the movie title to
explain the themes of the movie,but I think it's it's
intentionally direct, right? And looking at how American
communities have this outrage right now about what's happening
to the youth, right? But what is happening to the

(01:27:47):
youth? What is wrong with the youth?
I don't understand what is happening to the youth.
It must be the teachers, it mustbe XYZ.
And I think Craiger looking at the ugliness of adults and how
they Co opt the lives of the youth that are more innocent to
disguise their own kind of like personal tragedies, their own
personal baggage that they don'twant to confront is really

(01:28:08):
smart. And he makes these adults who
living in this town, this microcosm of a reactionary post
Trump America or, you know, current Trump, but also feels
weirdly post 2016 Trump at leastthat is very openly self
interested, very openly looking to like, hurt their neighbors,
you know, and how they just like, have this, like, inability
to reckon with their own shit. And there's something that was

(01:28:30):
just really compelling about those ideas.
And at this time in our country and watching these characters
also go through these like, psychological tragedies of
trying to grasp for explanationsand maps, explanations and
numbers and dates and lashing out at like, scapegoats, I
thought was just really effective.
Yeah. It it resonated, yeah.

(01:28:51):
And I don't think it's getting credit for that.
So. No, I I totally agree.
And I think that people can experience it as like a Stephen
King horror, supernatural, like an IT movie or even, you know,
like aspects of Midsummer and really like think about what is
the mystery here? Where are the kids?

(01:29:12):
But I think that the the response right now from people
just just saying it is only thateven though you could experience
it like that if you didn't want to read into or just engage, I
guess with what is like being presented to you is like
reductive of the movie. Because I think there are, I
mean, the main characters are, you know, teachers, a

(01:29:33):
disgruntled parent, like a cop who is abusing his power.
This like witch character, like these innocent children.
There's obviously like a lot going on, even if you know it's
subconscious, like Zach's engaging in a lot of like
tensions that are are happening right now.

(01:29:54):
Do you think the people are reducing the movie already
because he doesn't take himself that seriously?
Or at least we don't think he does.
Like when you listen to him talkto Sean, he's like, really try
not to over intellectualize the movies.
And sometimes you can look at film makers like doing that so
they don't have to like, have a responsibility and what they're
putting out in the world. I don't think that's the case in
Zack's 2 movies that we've seen from him.
But he genuinely feels like afraid to come off as

(01:30:16):
pretentious. And so I wonder if that's like
hurting him in the early criticism of this movie where
people are like, well, this movie isn't treating its ideas
that seriously. So it's not about anything.
It's like empty. I wonder if that's what's going
on. I don't know.
I mean, I think that there is certainly like a mythologizing
around horror and men who write horror.
So like when men are like, I don't want to say what this is

(01:30:38):
about. Like I.
I don't do directors commentary.Yeah, I'm going to like, I'm
going to really also those signal in different ways that
this, like, means things that you could read into.
And and I think like, you know, I really appreciate and find it
refreshing how Zach approaches his movies in terms of like,
this is what I meant. Here's where I didn't mean

(01:31:00):
something. But obviously subconsciously,
like, you know, it probably meant something.
I'm responding to something obviously, like the world around
me. And he's just like a very chill
person who's willing to have a conversation with people and not
mythologize himself as this. Like, he is like a really big,
you know, new figure in the horror space, which is very

(01:31:20):
exciting. So like, I find that very
refreshing. And I wonder, yeah, like, if
people in the film space are like, because he's not
mythologizing himself, like. And then we have a movie that is
really engaging with like a witch character, like a folklore
right type of story that isn't like an Edgar's movie that
doesn't feel like overly seriousof like a Nosferatu, which we

(01:31:43):
had problems with. Yeah.
Then I I wonder if people are like just just being dismissive
and. Maybe people just have it too
good lately, like the denseness of Nope, the denseness of
sinners, right? Or just recently, the denseness
of 28 years later. I don't think weapons has that.
But it's not looking to lie thatit's trying to do that.
It's actually saying here's someactually like commonplace issues

(01:32:04):
that we can't even reckon with. So I'm not really going to take
this huge historical commentary.I'm not going to put Reagan on
the radio like I did in Barbarians to make you kind of
wrestle with the past 50 years, like the crumbling of American
infrastructure, gentrification. Instead, I'm just going to be
like here, like really contemporary issues that are in
our towns that are a microcosm of larger problems across the
country. And you can play with these
ideas or not, but really I just want to make this dope ass $40

(01:32:26):
million. Which movie?
Which is kind of sick and bringing back a genre that
doesn't exist. It basically is a movie a part
of a sub genre that doesn't exist as much anymore.
There was a film called Heretic that came out last year that
this reminded me of, but that's like a bad version of this
movie. It also had barbarian elements,
which was interesting. You're right.
Yeah. And Hugh Grant spends a lot of

(01:32:48):
time monologuing about ideas in that movie, which I enjoy
because it's Hugh Grant. And it's also like this
atheistic dark comedy horror movie.
But it kind of then turns into basically what Craiger is really
good at is elevating the premise, turning it into
something more mythic, more supernatural, and it falls flat.
So when people are thinking like, weapons really doesn't
work, watch Heretic again or movies like that.

(01:33:08):
And actually those are shots at the cracker project of trying to
make something right beneath theseriousness of like Jordan
Peele's work or Ari Astor's work.
And he's able to kind of carve out his own space.
And I don't know, I think peopleare going to be trying to do
what he is able to do and think it's easy.
And it's just, it's not. Yeah.
And, and I think, yeah, people are like, you know, maybe not in

(01:33:28):
love with this movie in ways that maybe it's similar to my
experience. Like I, I don't really love
movies that are in the Stephen King type of horror or like I
respect like black phone, but it's not my favorite.
It is a similar thing. Even Midsummer to a certain
extent for me is like a similar thing where that's just like not

(01:33:48):
my favorite sub genre. So I can understand if people
are interacting with it like that, but there's really not a
lot like which is why black phone was so refreshing.
There's really not a lot of movies and horror movies that
exist like this. And like, I, I think it's
important that we, you know, youdon't have to love it.
Like I'm not, I'm saying like I really liked it, but I wasn't,
it's not my favorite horror movie ever.

(01:34:09):
But in order to like, also have these creative unique stories
that are allowed to be told and like the vision of, of a
filmmaker. And, and so like, I, I think
that is also important. And it's interesting to to see
the reaction to this movie, I guess.
OK, well, that's the extra credits of Zach Craiger's
Weapons. If you enjoyed this episode,

(01:34:32):
don't forget to subscribe. Leave us five stars on Spotify
or Apple or wherever you get your podcast.
If you would be so kind, if you like the show, if you've been a
long time listener, a recent listener, if you could go on
Apple Reviews and write us a nice review.
We would appreciate that. Honestly if it's anything under
5 stars just DM us because and we actually get a lot of nice

(01:34:54):
feedback. Yeah, I would say 98% of the
time we're getting nice feedback.
Nice. I think it's maybe even like one
time where someone was just liketotally out of pocket.
It's a handful, yeah. Maybe I would say it's like
99.9% sure. Like everything is nice.
We. Get great emails, great DMS,
really nice Apple reviews. In fact the past few we got were
super sweet and made a sound waysmarter than I think we are.

(01:35:16):
But I appreciate you. Thank you for the nice words,
but it really helps the show andit helps show get found.
Again, we are independent. Yeah, we are an independent.
We purposely do not take advertisements.
Yes, or join a podcast network. We've purposely chosen not to do
that because our listeners sponsor us through an Patreon,
which is $5 a month, where you can sign up and get over 70

(01:35:39):
episodes right now, over 200 hours of deep dives and
conversations. Or you can just become a free
member in which we have many andyou have access to tons of that
exclusive content where we have a collections tab for free
members with I think almost 10 episodes on there, which for us
that's like 30 hours of conversation.
Likes the Barbarian deep dive? And I think 28 Days Later is on

(01:35:59):
there right now for 28 Years Later, which we loved this year,
yeah. Yeah, Hereditary is on there.
There's a good amount of horror films for horror fans.
Hopefully we'll be back to talk with Zach one day.
I don't know if we will for thismovie.
He seems like he's pretty bookedright now, but we'll definitely
be trying to talk to him for Resident Evil because I'm stoked
for that. I'm a huge fan of those games

(01:36:20):
and especially the Resident Evilremasters of one and two over
the pandemic. I don't want to go too deep on
it right now, but I spent a lot of I'll.
Take your word for it, but it's cool.
Maybe me and James will have a aseparate episode about that.
All right guys, till next time. Peace bye.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Deeper Meaning of Zach Cregger’s 'Weapons'

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

All Episodes

The Deeper Meaning of Zach Cregger’s 'Weapons'

Stuff You Should Know