The Five Eras of Wes Anderson + 'The Phoenician Scheme' Review

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
Hello, welcome to the extra credits of Wes Anderson's The
Phoenician Scheme. I'm Trey.
And I'm Kelsey. So Wes is back, and this time he
brought Michael Cera. We've asked for this for a long
time. We love Sarah, he's very
important to our generation. Obviously super bad.
And I don't know, like all the indie movies that came after
that from him. We'll definitely be talking
about some of those performancestoday or Scott Pilgrim, but this

(00:41):
is always been somebody We wanted a Wes Anderson movie, and
I think we were right. Yeah, we talked about this on
our ranking pod or draft pod forWes Anderson, right?
And a little bit on Asteroid City.
But yeah, like Michael Cera, I don't think we're alone.
And that's kind of like a dream project where him and Wes just
seem so well suited in terms of their their powers in comedy

(01:04):
that he works so well in a West world.
I think on the, was it Moonrise Kingdom, that episode we did on
Patreon where we were like trying to cast a Wes Anderson
movie and I think we said Sarah #1 would be amazing.
And again, we were right. Validated #2 I think we said
Aubrey Plaza. Yes, I think that's what you
said. Definitely.
She would really work. I think I said, or one of us

(01:26):
said Tom Cruise, which, Oh, yeah.
Also, if you're wondering why wehave Tom Cruise here, if you're
watching this on YouTube, the shrine to Tom Cruise, it's
because we were doing a Mission Impossible episode.
We're like, let's just leave it up for Wes.
It looks like a Hey Arnold shrine.
Yeah, And, and I think Tom Cruise would be really good,
similar to how like PTA used Cruise as a kind of like

(01:52):
Internet personality manipulatorin Magnolia.
I think he could be a similar talent in a West world.
How W uses like Edward Norton orJeffrey Wright, like an
authoritative figure. I think he'd play really well in
that comedy. I don't know that he'd ever like
do that anymore. It seems like he's going to go

(02:14):
more towards a dramatic path after Mission Impossible, but.
Maybe he's with Enri 2 next, youknow, after the Mission
Impossible legacy has kind of ended now he will probably be in
AI would assume Birdman like movie next.
So he could be leading into satire and imperative himself.
And I think we could see something like that in the W 1st
because that kind of feels like where he was going with Final

(02:35):
Reckoning, because that movie sort of feels like a a satire on
itself in some ways. Like he's like making fun of the
the spectacle of Mission Impossible.
Yeah. We also have this set up because
we were, we did a Mission Impossible deep dive.
We did a ranking that's on the main feed right now, but we did
a deep dive to put on YouTube and today's episode's gonna be
on YouTube by the way as well. And Spotify video.
And then we lost the I think it was like a corrupted file.

(02:57):
I don't know what happened. So now we just have this.
It was the entity. Yeah, the entity did not want to
hear our takes on that movie, even though they were positive.
Yeah. So we've talked a lot about Wes
on this podcast, one of. Our most covered directors, I
think. I think so.
It's like Denis Velnov, Wes Anderson, Christopher Nolan,
Scorsese, Probably Scorsese. Yeah, we've done all the

(03:19):
Chazelles, Astros, Jordan Peels,so a lot of the newer kind of
new wave horror film makers. But Wes is certainly up there.
And now in 2025, he's coming outwith his 12th film.
We've covered Moonrise Kingdom, Fantastic Mr. Fox on Patreon.
We did a deep dive in Asteroid City two years ago, a movie that
I love a lot. And that deep dive is now on
Patreon. And so real quick for new

(03:41):
listeners and old listeners, if you are listening on the main
feed, we have launched a set of exclusive free episodes on
Patreon for free members. And so right now in this
episode, you can hit the link inthe description and you can join
as a free member and see what it's like over on Patreon.
We have a few free episodes on Living Plus, which is our tier
tier for Patreon. We only have one tier.

(04:01):
It's really simple and for free members, you'll have access to
Creed as Sinners are still in theaters, which is a great Ryan
Coogler Michael B Jordan episode.
You'll also have access to our Mission Impossible recent
episode. We did the Brian De Palma film
and our Asteroid City deep dive,of course from two years ago
now. OK, so Wes Anderson, we just saw

(04:23):
the Phoenician scheme a few daysago.
So I think we're still in that kind of headspace.
So this is more like a reaction deep dive.
I thought we'd talk about his career 1st to see where our
minds are at with Wes because this later chapter of Wes
Anderson I think is pretty divisive.
That is like French dispatch, Asteroid City, the Phoenician
scheme. And so now I'm starting to like,

(04:44):
in preparation for this episode,think about Wes in different
eras because he's sort of being criticized.
And this is a movie that's being, I don't want to say
panned, but not as beloved as Asteroid City.
So the Phoenician scheme is being sort of heavily
criticized. And I think fans are starting to
see the West formula as something that's being a little
bit like exhausting retiring. I disagree.

(05:07):
So I've like gone in through hiscareer, went through like
Wikipedia and was like trying tocreate different like mini eras.
So I thought that'd be a fun discussion piece.
Yeah, yeah, let's do that. But I mean, I think because
we're talking a little bit aboutthat as we rewatch, we want to
see Phoenician scheme and then we re watched Grand Budapest
hotel and asteroid city and we're like there's just a
different, you know, vibe here. And like you said, Wes is often

(05:32):
criticized for making the same movie.
And so yeah, which I I don't think is happening at all.
You can actually, you know, especially when you watch hit
all of his movies kind of an order.
You see him evolving as a filmmaker, addressing different
themes. But specifically like I think
the the maybe gap which I'm thinking about because of

(05:56):
Phoenicians. Game, Yeah.
That people are having with thislast era, is that it?
There's a purposeful distance that he puts between his
characters or the stories and like what he's just actually
trying to make. So I don't think that in this
last era, the French Dispatch, Asteroid City and now Phoenician

(06:16):
scheme, people are like just respecting what Wes is trying to
do in terms of like him just actually trying to make a
particular type of movie. They're like comparing it to all
the other different eras of Wes.So do you want to run through
them like an order? Yeah, I think so.
I think it's best not to do themlike thematically.
It's do more chronologically or at least that's how I set them

(06:38):
up and you can tell me if you want to do it more thematically.
We'll see. Let's.
Just do it in order, yeah. So I think the first era is the
indie punk era, punk rock era, which is Bottle Rocket and then
Rushmore. And I think he introduced
himself on the scene as this like quirky hipster new wave 90s
indie filmmaker. And this is kind of Wes Anderson

(06:59):
before the maximalism, but he still has that deadpan comedy,
still a little bit rebellious. And a maximalist character at
its core, yeah. Yeah, and the absurdity of
masculinity being on the forefront of his like themes.
I think with the Owen Wilson character, the Jason Schwartzman
character and Rushmore, Rushmorebeing one of my all time
favorite was Anderson movies. So kind of like an offbeat

(07:20):
beginning to his career. That's hilarious.
Like true comedies with some heart as well.
So you can kind of see a lot of the the staples emotionally and
tonally of Wes Anderson's careerin these first two movies in
that first period. The second period is more of
like a really important time forwhat I would say like for late
millennials, OK found family, which is certainly a theme of

(07:41):
like all of Wes's peers like Quentin Tarantino or Paul Thomas
Anderson, Noah Bound back, GretaGerwig.
And these movies would be The Royal Tenenbaums, The Life
Aquatic, Steve Zizu, and then Darjeeling Limited.
And I think those 3 movies are about family dysfunction.
Yeah, a lot of also like dad complicated dad relationship
themes for sure. And kind of like something new

(08:06):
introduced here, Wes Anderson making very sad movies that are
almost melancholic but disguisedas comedies, almost marketed as
comedies. Yeah, I can see that.
Which then becomes a big I thinkjust a constant for him.
He always makes like really heartfelt dramas but are just
disguised as like funny movies or comedies that start to get
more like hyper designed as we go from Tenenbaums on.

(08:30):
But again, like this is like a really important to a certain
generation. I think Royal Tenenbaums is like
or Tenenbaums is really important to a very specific age
group. Yeah, like.
It's looked at as like a Grand Budapest level movie.
Not to me. It's not like in my kind of top
tier West, but I understand why people look.
At it, which is like an unpopular opinion I think for
both of us. Royal Tenenbaums, while I

(08:51):
totally understand why people just absolutely love this movie
and all the dynamics of the the different like children and this
kind of succession, you know, ifand if Wes Anderson were to
direct succession. Which is sort of like Venetian
scheme too. Yeah, yeah, Ben Stiller, right.
He does return to the themes, but yeah, but I understand like,
and this is similar to all of West movies.

(09:12):
Like I could understand why something could be at the bottom
of my list, but it could be at the top of someone else's.
I do think it it has both to do with maybe what you lean towards
in terms of the comedy that Wes is exploring or using in that
movie, but also like it does maybe have to do with what

(09:32):
you're talking about this like kind of generational.
When did you see it? Because this next era that
we're, we're going to talk aboutlike Fantastic Mr. Fox, Moonrise
Kingdom, Those were the Wes's that we saw.
The first Wes's we saw in like high school maybe.
That's exactly what I was going to ask you.
Do you think Wes Anderson fans as as we are fans?
Like I don't, I don't know if we're like the we run the Reddit

(09:54):
page fan, but like we run the let's say that we're like really
high up on like letterbox ratings for the average Wes
Anderson movies. Like so we're big fans, but fans
of Wes seem to be very passionate about one to two
movies. And we'll argue those movies
till they die for those movies to be like at the top of any Wes
list, if you will. And we're not ranking his movies
today. We've done and stuff like that

(10:15):
before, but we're going to be like going through these eras as
we're saying, but this next era,you're totally right.
I think it depends when you first see what Wes, whatever Wes
movie that you attach to and you're like, this is a voice.
This is very unique, brilliant, funny.
This is what I connect to most. We saw Wes at the beginning of
his like fatherhood. I think like Wes Anderson
becoming a dad and so his moviesaround 2009 to 2012 are kind of

(10:40):
like dad core era. Very sentimental, yeah.
Yeah, not like Steve Zizu or or Darjeeling or the other movies
he had done where they're kind of like, sit satirizing dads.
This one's more like a coming ofage journey.
Yeah, this is more like a heartfelt, sentimental coming of
age journey for children becoming teenagers, but also for
young adults becoming like parents.

(11:03):
And that is really effective forus in particular, I think,
because we were in high school during this period.
So this is like the first W movies we saw.
Yeah. So it made the biggest impact on
us. Yeah, well, I think that, you
know, W does such a good job when we were just rewatching,
you know, like Budapest. And I think that's like a
probably the, the broadest, likefavorite besides like a royal

(11:24):
Tenenbaum. I think so too.
But that's, I think I agree withpeople that I think Budapest is
like maybe his most complete movie, which we'll talk about in
a second when we get in his nextera.
But in terms of like Fantastic Mr. Fox and Moonrise Kingdom,
the reason they're my favorites and I think are probably
collective favorites. That's why we did the deep dives

(11:45):
on Patreon, is because it feels like Wes is really good at
balancing like this empathy for his characters.
And instead of taking this kind of like joke of found family in
a Zuzu movie, which I think works like I I like that movie.
I know you're not as high on it.I like all of his movies.
Yeah, it's more. Yeah, but but like instead of

(12:07):
that like quirkiness, he actually like takes it into like
a real family, right. And he explores those kind of
dynamics of the actual maybe like day-to-day grounded
tensions and then elevates that through, like, heists in
Fantastic Mr. Fox. Yeah.
Or you know, this like coming ofage relationship and the whole

(12:30):
scout troop that Edward Norton is leading as he's kind of like
this coach figure, mentor. Right.
Oh yeah, yeah. Like the the kids coming
together realizing like they feel guilty for.
Bullying judges. Yeah, but also like an
underrated part of this too, is like Frances Mcdormand and Bill
Murray as like the parents, right, being kind of like

(12:50):
offline. Bruce Willis thrown in there in
the mix. Yeah, like so I think, you know,
for me that I I really love Wes and that that sentimental lane,
like the the kind of freeze for or the slow MO's on really like
emotional moments that that really works for me.
Yeah, I think it also is the beginning to him leaning into

(13:13):
artifice and being comfortable with artifice.
Moonrise Kingdom in particular, I think the the stop motion in
the dual screenplay with Noah Baimbach on Fantastic Mr. Fox
was the beginning to West accepting that he's just going
to be this like hyper stylistic filmmaker and getting the budget
to do so, Which because it does take some money to do both of
these films and creating such massive production designs and

(13:34):
not relying on CGI for special effects.
And so this is where we get intohis next period, the artifice
and the political Wes Anderson. So this is like 2014 to 2018.
He makes Grand Budapest Hotel and Isle of Dogs.
And this is where I think he does go full maximalist, a
little bit meta too, which will be a theme he comes back to in

(13:54):
his this current period we're in.
This is also where he starts nesting stories within stories.
He's had narrators already in past films, but this is where he
starts kind of doing meta stories in a sense.
He'll come back to an asteroid city and dispatch, but Grand and
Budapest feels like his biggest turning point as a filmmaker.
This is where he gets celebratedby the Academy in different

(14:16):
ways, with a lot of nominations get celebrated by audiences, by
people going to see this movie multiple times.
He made over $100 million, whichis rare for Wes Anderson
project. And it's one of his most, it's,
it's probably his greatest balance of doing something
that's hyper designed and then also deeply emotional and
resonant, while also being politically interesting and him

(14:39):
taking some chances with the politics of this era.
And I would also say Isle of Dogs is included in this because
both movies are about fascism. In 2014 to 2018, the whole world
was about fascism. Like that was a theme in the
global politics and and still is, unfortunately.
But this was a huge, I think, tipping point for his career

(14:59):
because I think he's a part of ageneration.
I'm not generalizing here. I'm trying not to, but that is a
little bit cynical about globalization.
And so like this becomes like a a constant theme of the Wes
Anderson project moving forward.So this is like AI think Grand
Budapest is an interesting sort of Rosetta Stone for the rest of
the next 10 years and where we are today.

(15:21):
So this is, I think, people's one of their favorite periods.
Because of this movie. Yeah, I think so too.
I think people are like sometimes in on the stop motion
of Isle of Dogs and out on otheraspects of it, and we'll talk
about it a little bit more today.
But with Budapest, I think that it, even though it's not my
personal favorite, although it'sup there for me, I think it is

(15:43):
his best movie. Like in terms of just bringing
together all the skills that Weshas of humor.
Yeah. The emotional depth that he is
able to get to it that, you know, we talked about in my
favorite era of Fantastic Mr. Fox and Moonrise Kingdom.
And then I think also it has thebest subplots.

(16:05):
You know, like that is somethingthat sometimes Wes movies can
people can be in or out on, especially like in something
like French Dispatch, right. We we saw people kind of like
out on certain short stories than than others.
But I think like here, you know,we have like boy with Apple, the
prison break, Willem Dafoe like.His whole.
Journey like throwing cats out the window, Jeff Goldblum's cat

(16:27):
out the window and skiing down amountain.
And then we have like 0 and Gustav being like, what are we
going to do when we catch him? He's a murderer like you.
Know like just. Ronan's yeah, like, yeah.
So not only does it have I thinkthe best like subplots and
almost a succession family and it's self with Adrian Brody as
this like villain, villainous character, but we also have an

(16:50):
amazing ensemble. Like I think, you know, that's
one of the magic pieces of Wes that people come to.
It's like, how did you get this massive actor in this tiny part
like Steve Carell in Asteroid City, right, Just showing up in
the background with this green visor, like managing a motel
and, and different vending machines.
Yeah. Where you can buy land for

(17:12):
quarters for $10.00, but only inquarters.
And, and so like, that's kind ofalso the magic of a West movie.
And I actually think like maybe the, because we don't have as
much of that in Phoenician scheme.
Like we don't have people popping up everywhere.
It's only one person at one stopor maybe two.
Yeah. People were maybe not as like
maybe they're underwhelmed or something.

(17:33):
Even though I appreciated Phoenician scheme and I loved
all the different, like, subplots and the the character
actors who show up here. Yeah.
It's something like that. Grand Budapest has held up
because you have like, Harvey Keitel showing up in a a
jailbreak, you know what I mean?Like, yeah.
I think Phoenician scheme is getting a bad rap for most
critics because Asteroid City was that powerful like straight

(17:55):
up. And I they keeps getting
compared to this like meta trilogy that he's in now, which
is this, we can go to this new era from 2021 to 2025.
He's in this like surreal lane where his movies are about
making movies, they're about making art, they're about
legacy, they're about success inlike dealing with success.
What is the cost of it? And still about found families

(18:16):
and trying to find purpose and meaning in this like
increasingly fragmented world. And he still goes and does these
kind of like we're going to go back in the past in French
dispatch or do this retrofuturistic thing in
Asteroid City or go back in the past again, this Cold War era
and Phoenician scheme. He still does this.
We're not sort of in the contemporary world, but you can
map on a lot of things in our contemporary world onto these
movies like the pandemic or the quarantine in Asteroid City.

(18:39):
There are a lot of things you can do to map on or you can map
on corporate tycoon mogul figures on the Benicio del
Toro's character Venician scheme.
But this seems to be an era thatis very divisive.
I think Venician scheme is goingto be very divisive because it
doesn't have that same emotionalpunch that a lot of people felt
in French Dispatch in terms of the existentialism of that

(19:00):
movie. And it doesn't have the
emotional punch of the trauma that so many characters face in
Asteroid City. And and he sells the Toro and
what he's characters going through.
We're going to get into it in a steep dive in a second, but I
think just put people off. Now, I don't watch a Wes
Anderson movie immediately comparing it to his other films,
but we do watch a lot of movies.We run a podcast.

(19:21):
We're doing a whole career retrospective on this review of
Phoenicians scheme for no real reason outside of just trying to
make sense the Wes Anderson project.
Because it's like what our podcast does really when we talk
about otour film makers like this.
But I find it to be really unfair to be like, well, it's
not Grand Budapest. Well, it's not Asteroid City.
It's like, all right, Phoenicians.
If insert, you know, 90% other film makers in the world, this

(19:44):
Phoenician scheme would be a highlight of their career.
Like it's a really, I think a really seriously successful
movie. But let's talk about this this
trilogy, for lack of a better word, between dispatch, Asteroid
City, Phoenician scheme. All these movies are sort of
about storytelling, about artists, about successful
people. You know, we have like thinkers,

(20:06):
writers, artists to now capitalist moguls with
Phoenician scheme. So we.
Take a little bit of a shift, I think, in Phoenician scheme.
Yeah. For sure.
But yeah, like it's about kind of weighing the responsibility
or also like the the kind of what you're willing to
compromise for the artists. I think particularly in French

(20:28):
Dispatch, maybe more so in Asteroid City where we have like
a photographer. And that's also like the most
meta of his movies so far in terms of him looking at, you
know, Edward Norton is like basically playing sort of like a
W figure as a a director writer and him like falling in love

(20:49):
with his characters, but not really like knowing being asked
all these questions by actors, maybe not having the answer.
What does it all mean? Yeah.
What does it all mean? I don't really know.
Like it just kind of happened while I was writing.
Yeah. Like you, you're not going to
have all the answers. Just keep, just keep acting.
Or that could be a more meta thing in terms of also like,
you're not going to have all theanswers in life.
Like just keep living your life.And then, you know, we have that

(21:13):
like the whole subplot of the behind the scenes of the play.
And then also we have the Auggiecharacter who's like asking why
does Auggie burn his hand on thequickie girdle played by Jason
Schwartzman? That he, his character, while
he's sort of an artist as a photographer, he's also like a
war photographer. And, and he's like asking all

(21:34):
these questions, right? And and so they it's kind of
like an interesting lane that Wes is going into where he's
putting his characters at a distance on purpose in Asteroid
City. Of course, like how I just
explained with it being a meta, like he's writing the story and
showing you the behind the scenes of that process in French

(21:57):
Dispatch. It's purposefully a more
portfolio type of film where we have these like short films put
into one and because they feel like heavily fictionalized or
maybe fantastical like sequencesthat we are at a distance from
the characters regardless. And then when we get to Asteroid

(22:20):
or sorry, Phoenician scheme, we're at a distance because this
is his first almost like villainous character, right?
It's almost like we were talkingabout a succession character
like a Logan Roy. An openly greedy, self
interested person? Yeah, yeah.
Who's? Trying to like he.
He's a war profiteer essentially, right?
Yeah, literally. I mean, that's how he became a

(22:40):
mogul. He wants to create this, like,
military industrial site to makemoney off of this land.
He talks about giving stipends to slaves like this, and he
like, hands grenades to every person he meets.
Like, this is a clearly not a good person.
And it's funny to cast a very menacing Benicio Del Poro in
this main lead role to only thenturn him into this kind of

(23:02):
sympathetic figure where he realizes throughout his journey
in this kind of moral awakening he's having while doing the
subplot in a heaven purgatory. Like in order for me to find
meaning and purpose, I need to be with those that I love and
his adopted daughter. And we'll get to all of that
because it's a really interesting journey that I don't
think it's been taken really seriously by critics, but I I

(23:22):
connected with it. Like I enjoyed that.
I like that at the end of the movie, he's like in a Bistro
with his dog, like all that stuff.
Spoiler mornings by the way ahead.
But yeah, so that that really worked for me.
I loved everything you said about this trilogy.
I think I guess we're just calling it the trilogy.
But I think the reason why has become so off putting to people
and why he's become so divisive.Either there's extreme fans

(23:45):
where there's like TikTok fan edits of trying to do his style
or there are people who think he's like deeply pretentious and
like navel gazing at all of us doing four different stories
nested within one another in Asteroid City or Dispatch just
being sort of disjointed and existential.
I think people are also thrown off or love his style and how
maximalist it is. Any kind of hypersymmetry of

(24:07):
everything in the pastel color palettes like the hipster quote
UN quote. I'm not using that word
seriously. Elements of the Wes Anderson
project, I think are now for a lot of, you know, I guess
viewers, including critics, has now start to become like a
gimmick for a lot of people. Not to me, and I don't think to
you either. No, yeah.
We discussed this on Asteroid City, but I think we talked

(24:29):
about how he uses symmetry in his films and design and
production design and artifice to try to speak to the character
journeys in his films. Like any time a character is
going through an emotional crisis, which most of his lead
characters are to a very funny degree, to a sadder degree in
other films, depending on what we're talking about, the
artifice of his movie sort of tries to work as like a

(24:50):
therapeutic device for his characters.
And I think the audience that I found as a sort of like way to
be in conversation with his movies for the first time in
Asteroid City. I, I have not had a language to
understand the Wes Anderson likeemotional project where the
production design speaks to the character writing until Asteroid
City was so like meta about it that it forced me to like think

(25:12):
more deeply about what he's doing that I think was really
smart. Like I think his career is going
to go in a really interesting place from here on out because
Asteroid City now becomes this blueprint for how to watch his
movies again and again and have a new relationship relationship
to them each time out that I'm really excited for.
So I do not feel the same way asother people about these past
three films that somehow he's like, how do I get back to the

(25:34):
success in the heights of Grand Budapest?
I feel like these 3 movies standalone.
Dispatch Asteroid City. Yeah.
And Phoenician scheme as like really successful projects.
Yeah, and I think you know it. It's just like a a shift, right?
Like maybe people don't like change.
They're like, sure. And, and I understand that maybe
they aren't like Phoenician Scheme has a similar blueprint

(25:57):
of this, you know, adventure comedy as Grand Budapest.
And so people are just like comparing because people love
Wes's project. They've seen all his movies.
So it's like, hard not to compare.
But yeah, I think if you look atthe these movies as standalones,
he's actually doing something interesting.

(26:17):
He's like most in Phoenician Scheme, the most politically
transparent he's been in maybe any of his movies.
And so like, yeah, he's just doing something new.
And I think like, we just need to maybe appreciate that for
what it is and look at like, what is he actually trying to
do? Is he accomplishing it?
I think yes. Yeah, I agree.
I think again, the gimmick thingmight also be because he took

(26:40):
like a Netflix deal last year and he made three shorts that
all felt like he was just practicing or experimenting with
style that all kind of felt similar.
I like the Roald Dahl adaptations.
I thought they were pretty successful.
I thought the casting was reallygood in those.
He won an Oscar, his first Oscarever, for a short film, which is
pretty cool for the Henry Sugar one.
I. Remember liking them, but I also
can't tell you what any of them were about so.

(27:01):
Yeah. OK.
So we can get the Phoenician scheme now, right?
So let's should. We say spoilers, yes.
Spoilers ahead. OK, we're going to spoiler
warning. We're going to try to get
through a lot of this movie, though it is a lot of plot
because we go through five different chapters.
Also, it is thunderstorming right now, so at any point if
our dog jumps on one of us, you'll know why if you're

(27:22):
watching at home. So we're in 1950 around there.
Our lead character's name is Zaza Korda, who is a paranoid
war profiteer played by, again, the menacing Benicio Del Toro,
who I think is most known to like regular moviegoers as the
guy from Sicario. That really messed up the Neva
Nov movie where he plays a really kind of, he's a horrible,

(27:46):
like brutal character arc in that in that film that's really
tragic. But he also is known to be like
one of the most eccentric character actors.
And I thought it was really coolto see Wes cast him as the lead
here because he is he is giving a Ray Finds performance, like
that level of a performance in this movie.
But he's not given the same emotional depth as a Ray Finds

(28:06):
character from Grand Budapest. And so Nisa del Toro has to do 2
things. He's got to distance you a
little bit because he is this kind of satire of a capitalist.
We'll also want to bring you in at the end when he looks at his
daughter and he's like, I want to adopt you.
And, and I felt that that workedfor me somehow.
I did not expect that. It was like Logan Roy looking at
Kendall being like, I am actually going to give you the
business. You know, that doesn't quite

(28:27):
happen. It's just spoil succession.
Well, it's not really a spoiled.Not really.
Yeah. That's basically the end of
every season of Succession. So we see Zaza Korda survive
several assassination attempts. But the movie starts with one.
You hear the the Alexander Displot score that sounds very
Isle of Dogs adjacent, where youhear, like, the drums, the drums

(28:48):
beating. Yeah, it's sick.
And then you see this guy in theback of this private jet
explode. Like a stop motion way too.
It was so funny. It was awesome, very funny.
And we learn more about this character.
We learned that he's a very selfinterested, very greedy.
He also is trying to be a FamilyGuy but is not really one.

(29:09):
There's some jokes about the nuclear family.
He describes his large family of10 as hedging his bets as he's
adopted nine children, I think, or almost nine of them.
Yeah, which I loved that part ofthe movie where he's like, I
have what, like 9 adopted sons just in case, you know, the
probability of one being a genius and we kind of cut to

(29:29):
them and understand that maybe they are not geniuses, right.
But he gifts them like weapons like yeah, bow and arrow and.
There's one trying to kill him throughout.
The movie like I was like, I want that movie like Wes needs
to make a movie about the this kind of like succession, yeah,
orphan situation, but I I love that as a side plot and also how

(29:51):
Liesl kind of reforms a relationship with those kids as
well. Yes, we can talk about her now.
Corda reaches out to Liesl, who is his estranged daughter, a
novice nun or nun in training, who is played by Mia
Threppelton, who is not an actress.
I knew anything about before this movie.
We stayed for AQ and A after themovie between Wes, Mia,

(30:13):
Threppleton, Penisa, Del Toro, Michael Cera which was awesome
and we learned a little bit moreabout her.
I think this might be one of thelow key breakout performances of
the year. Yeah, she's so good.
I don't want to compare. I don't mean to compare her to
other actresses. I just don't know her and
anything else. So to tell listeners who are
still watching this or listeningto this who have not gone to see
this movie, it's that good of a performance that I recommend
just going to see it for this performance because it feels

(30:35):
like someone that's going to be in the kind of movie
consciousness for a while. Because she feels like a really
interesting blend of a Florence Pugh and like a Mia Goth.
An actor who's able to like, I don't know, dive into
conflicting tones. Very goth to me.
Mia Goth and so I really loved that about her performance and
she's a really good rhythm and and chemistry at Benicia.

(30:56):
Yeah, like her her kind of like deadpan, standoffish yet warmth
and like quiet confidence was all really felt.
And she did that really well in her character and showed shifts
too, when also she like became maybe a little interested in
Michael Cera and just what was he trying to do?
Or like sympathetic of this figure who is possibly her

(31:19):
father, you know, but I love their meeting, like at the table
and I I love how we feel like firm questioning from her.
But Benicio Del Toro does a great like comedic bit with the
West dialogue of like I said, I'm not saying so I'm not
saying, you know, like that kindof like repeating stuff.
And and I love when you see a shift in her.

(31:40):
This is like a good example of the performance where she is
like, why, why are you keep saying I'm going to do this?
Like I just told you no. And then there's a shift where
she is like, Oh, I'm actually interested in you.
Like, let's see how this pans out.
And it's like, OK, I'll do it, right?
She signs. And I think that's, like, a good
moment. I also love, you know, the
introduction of all the different places they're going

(32:02):
to go and how his will is essentially in shoe boxes.
Oh my God, it's so funny. Which is a really fun like Wes,
you know, set piece like this kind of unique way of showing us
the journey ahead, right. And it he said that in the Q&A,
he got this idea from his wife'slate father where he kept like

(32:25):
his will or essentially like different projects as an
engineer in shoe boxes. And he's like, I have to put
that in my movie, but it just looks great.
It's like a fun little. He's done before, too.
It's a little bit of a motif in the Wes Anderson project.
He did this with Susie I think in Moonrise Kingdom, where all
the things. She did?
Oh yeah. With Sam, I think Sam has this
too. That's really funny.
So he. Yeah, like when he gets out of

(32:46):
the bag, he's like, I have a like macaroni, whatever.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Wes's emotional, I
guess through line of his careerhas been like organizing chaos.
Like that's been a really kind of funny way to describe why he
cares so much about symmetry. And so, yeah, it was cool to see
the the boxes here. I mean, I feel like a lot of
people with any like just anybody, just any adult living

(33:07):
in the world has some kind of like financial thing like in a
box somewhere. So it's very relatable to see
that. So let me get to Michael Cera,
who, again, is just phenomenal in this movie.
He seems like the obvious extra credit because it's just like
somebody we want to give more ofa shout out to.
I'm so curious to where his career is going to go.

(33:28):
He reminded me of like, Gene Wilder in this movie or even I
thought about broadcast news with Albert Brooks.
Like Michael Cera is at an all time comedic status right now
where he has this kind of like, sad, cynical face now that he's
getting older. Yeah, but he still has that
deadpan humor that's just reallylike, I don't know, compelling.

(33:49):
That's also like this awkwardness that is very.
Sarah, what do you like about him as Bjorn the the bug tutor?
The bug yeah, expert. I loved Michael Cera and he said
he's the obvious extra credit. He is my extra credit, so
spoiler. I guess we're that at the end of
the episode and I'll talk about why more, but I thought he was

(34:09):
so funny, just like, you know, especially how they introduce
him in the movie, just sitting in the background like hi like
and Benito Doro was like, he's been here the whole time.
And I I love the aspect of writing him in as like giving
spontaneous lessons where he's like, should we do a lesson now?
Like. And I like him getting

(34:31):
polygraphed every 15 minutes. The mini polygraphed.
Yeah, which was made, you know, in the moment while they were
like rehearsing where Benicio Del Toro said something to Wes,
like, hey, I I don't think I would actually just divulge
things to him. I need to like, check him first.
And they came up with this like,you know, Inspector Gadget

(34:52):
technology that Wes like uses oflike a little like blood
pressure or whatever, you know, thing they put on his finger.
And it's a tiny technology of the lie detector.
I'd absolutely love that, which,you know, is so funny.
Michael Cera passes right, because he's a CIA agent.
He's been taught to, to, to cheat the the lie detector test.

(35:13):
It's. Hilarious.
I was wondering throughout the entire movie because I kept
bringing up like, is he a spy? Is he a spy?
I was like, is he a spy? Are they going to have Michael
Cera do a bit and then like be revealed as just like this geeky
American? Instead, they reveal him as like
this hot American, like he's doing Timothy Shalaman, right?
Yeah, that's a good chapter of the movie.
Our audience, by the way, love to this movie.

(35:34):
So that's why immediately I was like, the critics might be wrong
about this one because every I know we were an early screening
was a lot of West fans at Alamo Drafthouse when we went, but
they like laughed almost at every joke and that Michael Cera
reveal where he is like actuallya spy killed the audience.
Exactly. Well, the the whole shape shift
to this like American persona, like you said, kind of like a
Timothy Chalamet, like in Lady Bird, right?

(35:55):
Like a Kyle, he like shape shifts to a Kyle where he pops
up his collar and he messes up his hair.
It it's so good, just like in that forest moment.
Because also we have such a hugerelationship as an audience to
Michael Cera, like our generation in particular.
So to see him playing cool, similar to how he like dresses

(36:20):
up for a party in Superbad and like thinks he looks cool.
Yeah, these eyes, they cry everynight.
We'll do a super bad podcast oneday.
But yeah, like I have a huge relationship to Michael Cera,
also a meta relationship where he became, like you said and
like Scott Pilgrim, he became this like really interesting, I

(36:43):
guess like character or he was casted as sort of this like
quirky heartthrob after Superbadalso.
He was a Tumblr boy. There was like, there.
That was that era of 2012, 2015.Like he was in that space.
So it just this whole like persona of like acting cool and
serious as the spy is, is reallyfun.

(37:03):
I loved your, your call after wesaw the movie where you were
like, yeah, he was like Chalametbefore Chalamet, except now,
like, obviously Chalamet is like, the hot, sad boy and like,
Sarah, like, had his moment in the indie space.
But Chalamet is also Paul. Like, you can never see Sarah as
Paul. So like, that's, you know,
pretty funny. Well, OK, before we move on for
Michael Cera, I do also have to say in the Q&A Sarah dropped

(37:24):
some like Wes Anderson lore casting, he said.
You know, I've Wes and I have been trying to figure something
out in terms of like being in his movie for for a long time.
Yeah. And.
Which again, we felt very validated because we had never
heard that before. I don't think anybody had.
I don't think so. Yeah.
Because we've always wanted him in a West movie because
obviously he fits so well. And he said, you know, West and

(37:45):
I were at dinner, for example, with Harvey Keitel.
I was like, Harvey Keitel. Oh, yeah.
Harvey Keitel was in the jailbreak in Grand Budapest.
And so I was like, was he going to be in Grand Budapest?
Was he going to? Who Would he be in Grand
Budapest? Would he be like another person
in the jail? He'd have to be 0 because that's
the only young person at that time, and Sarah was probably

(38:06):
like 25. You know, you're right.
Tony Revolori played Zero incredibly well.
Yeah. And brings a lot of emotionality
to that movie that it needs. And that the conversation
between Ray Fines and Tony Revolori's character when they
get the break out, when that happens about his Zero's
background with his father and his family and and the village
he came from, that's so essential to the movie and it's
themes and it's the political through line of that movie.

(38:27):
It wouldn't work as well as Sarah, but yeah, Sarah on the
cast list of the ensemble of Grand Budapest would be make
that movie even more iconic. Yeah, I could.
See him in the zero part, but also like I am glad actually
that he wasn't because of the the depth of that movie then.
But I I think also he could be maybe like it.
I don't think he'd be better than Adrien Brody because of the

(38:47):
vibe that Adrien Brody brings in.
Sarah, Sarah. Today maybe he could do Brody
then, but Sarah back then he, I think he would have been one of
the young people. I think you're right, yeah.
But I think it reminded me. I was like, oh, did Timmy kind
of take like something out of the playbook of Michael Cera in
French dispatch? I think Timmy has a little bit
more electricity running throughhim.

(39:08):
I agree. And this comedic, you know.
Literally in French dispatch is electrocuted.
Is he? Yeah, when he's doing the radio
route. That's how he dies in the movie.
I think also Timothy, like Chalmay.
Timothy, my friend Chalmay, I feel like brings the Internet
friends such a like delusional confidence to his roles.
That's one of our favorite actors.

(39:29):
Like it's a very young Leo in that way or young Dale that
Sarah doesn't Sarah more his awkwardness, his deadpan energy.
He clearly learned from like Jason Bateman on Arrested
Development and that's more his route.
I like what you said about the electricity for Shalom, because
you have to believe Timothy's character thinks he can have sex
with Frances Mcdormand's character in French Dispatch.

(39:49):
And you believe that I don't know about.
Yeah, they have. Great chemistry.
I think it is because honestly, like Frances, Frances Mcdormand
is doing like the legwork for those scenes.
She's but but yeah, like Timmy, you do have to believe that kind
of like neurotic vibe of like read my manifesto.
I actually didn't want feedback on my manifesto like.

(40:11):
Jerry Maguire, His. Manchesto, yeah.
His memo. OK, so Korda, it's actually a
mission statement. It's a mission statement.
Sorry. Korda gives Liesl A proposition.
By the way, some of our jokes won't make sense if this is just
audio for you. It's a it's a video podcast too.
So we're, we're pointing to things around the room.
But Korda the the conceit of this movie is that Korda, Liesl

(40:33):
and then Yorn have to travel across this fictional country of
Phoenicia and meet hit, which isbasically the Mediterranean and
meet his former partners and help close something pretty
ominous called what UN quote thegap and the gap becomes a Mac
guffin. It becomes part Mac guffin for
like the spiritual journey or cosmic journey that Benicio del

(40:54):
Torres character is on, and it also is a Mac Guffin.
And as far as being this like ambiguous IOU that Del del
Toro's character wants to share with five other people about
money needed to build this military industrial site as this
weapons manufacturer that also we learned at the end of the
movie has like, dams and like waterways.

(41:16):
Like he he's trying to build hisown nation because he's hollow
inside, which, OK, like relatable commentary for
authoritarian figures across theworld and megalomaniacs like
capitalist trying to control countries or make their own
because they're so empty inside.So that really works as a
commentary. And I think it's an interesting
conceit to break the movie up into five chapters because Wes,
like this Anderson thing he doesis he always wants to break his

(41:39):
movie into clear acts in his film, which I've always enjoyed.
Yeah, it feels like hyper organized from a storytelling
standpoint. I also show the this kind of
like thing that he is going to build that he's trying to get
money from everyone to to make at the end.
But it's so quick. I'm excited to see the movie
again to like really see that miniature set piece.

(41:59):
Wes like doesn't care about it, like he he clearly and quickly
wants to like blow it up becausehe like doesn't want you to get
that invested in that idea. It's more so that this guy, his
meaning and purpose, has always been his daughter, who's been
like, estranged. Right and it's kind of like
making fun of the idea that he is doing all this because he
feels so lonely and is so competitive essentially, and

(42:22):
that's why he's also staying alive and feels like he's made
of steel. I I also think that this
particular scene at the very endwhere we see the like miniature
of, of like, I think I think of like Duloc from Shrek, but I was
thinking also like Willy Wonka, like in a, in a lot of ways.
And the, the reason I, I also say that is because when we were

(42:44):
rewatching asteroid city, I was thinking how wow, this is so
like obviously, like we talked about on asteroid city, kind of
like Spielberg close encounters,you know, vibe, especially with
the dad themes and and mom themes, But also it felt like
Willy Wonka with the stargazers,right, The junior stargazers who
have their own invention. It was like, instead of going to

(43:04):
the factory to see the inventions, they like brought
the inventions there. And so I feel like it's
something that I I was like, oh,a lot of Wes things feel almost
like in the lane of Willy Wonka of this like very strange comedy
characters who are like off beatwith the story itself.
But anyway, yeah, I I love when you bring stuff like that into

(43:26):
the story. Venetian scheme feels more like
Doctor Strangelove, I think is what you said when we left the
theatre. Well, yeah, with the plane and.
The plane is like an obvious call back, but like it also felt
like North by Northwest, like there was like a satire of its
own story so many times. I mean, Wes, this is really
leaning into satire, like in this later part of his career
that I really enjoy so. We a lot of physical comedy,

(43:47):
yeah. We start this five chapter
adventure comedy, anti capitalist skeptical of religion
movie from here on out. And the 1st chapter is stop #1
which is the Rail Barons where Corda and Liesl and Bjorn visit
an underground railway run by two characters by little known

(44:09):
actors Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston.
They also bring along a Prince played by Riz Ahmed which was
like a fun surprise. I didn't realize he was in his
ensemble. I want to see more of Riz Ahmed.
He's not in much anymore but he is an excellent actor.
And they negotiate a new contract.
This is, I think for me personally, probably the

(44:29):
funniest scene of the movie. This is your favorite stop.
Easily my favorite stop, but also I think the funniest moment
of the movie where Benita del Toro is like, we're going to
play two on two to five. And when he says that, I was
like, I'm about to watch Del Toro, like go one-on-one with
Tom Hanks. Is that really going to happen?
Like I was so pumped I just started.
I burst out laughing, which is Itry not to do when watching.

(44:51):
Movies. Well, you got the joke before
everyone else, because. I sort of got the joke.
Well, so they say like to settlethis, we're going to play like
whatever, you just. Said I thought he said two on
two on two. Two on 225, right?
And they didn't show us the basketball hoop yet, but you
understood that it was going to be a basketball.
Yeah, they didn't show us anything.
Basketball. So you laughed just like
picturing that obviously, and then like they showed the

(45:13):
basketball and then everyone laughed understanding they were
playing basketball. I think, you know, it's fair to
probably say I don't want to be like too broad, but let Wes
Anderson movie mega fans maybe are don't like watch basketball
or are not like big sports people.
So maybe it. Wouldn't.
Get that immediately. So as I did not, yeah, but.

(45:35):
Well, I mean, I was sort of wrong because I end up playing
horse, which is even funnier. And I also like that Wes
Anderson watches the NBA today and he's like, defense doesn't
win championship is. You think he's watching?
Whoever can hit the Steph shot, well, I feel like he's.
Watching Steph edits so that's different.
I feel like he's there is a little bit of a mini commentary
on the NBA today, or at least I mapped that on to whatever we're

(45:58):
watching. I don't know about.
We're just like Bryan Cranston guys doing like half court shot,
yeah. Yeah, I love that that Tom Hanks
and Bryan Cranston are like in this full get up to just play
horse, you know? With their like butt.
Bands and and yeah and and are just like acting silly like
taking it so seriously like chewing their gum and I'm I

(46:19):
think they like high fived at one point as a beautiful things.
I also really like, I may be in in the like minority here, but I
don't love Tom Hanks as a main character.
I think that in Asteroid City hewas almost supposed to be like a
Bill Murray type of role, and I like him in a smaller role
that's exaggerated here. That's kind of like playing

(46:41):
against the seriousness of Tom Hanks.
I agree. Yeah, who's becoming our Tom
Hanks? Who can do something like that?
Is it like somebody like Matt Damon, like I'm trying to think
you? Mean in a West movie or just in
general? In general in acting, so I'm
curious to who as Wes gets older, like who's like as actors
age out like Bill Murray's not going to be acting for much
longer. And same with Tom Hanks.

(47:01):
Like who who's he going to use to replace some of these?
Like what? What you would think of as like
the American Golden Boy from the90s, Tom.
Yeah, to play with that idea. I think Matt Damon is probably
the first person to. Jump, though, is already doing
that in other films. Like that's how he's making his
kind of stamp is being basicallylike a Wes extra.
But in movies that are straight,he's like doing the kind of like

(47:23):
offbeat thing where he's this cameo and and it's like that's
Matt Damon. He's.
Increasingly done that I like tosee maybe like Jeremy Strong
come into a. Wes Anderson movie would love
that. Kieran Colkin would have a panic
attack in a Wes Anderson film. I don't think he could do it.
Yeah, yeah. But Jeremy Strong would be a lot
of fun to keep this succession coded.
Stop 2 is the Casablanca style nightclub where the main guy

(47:45):
there is played by Matthew Almarik I think is how you say
his last name. Who is the guy in from Grand
Budapest who's the chef? And also then is somebody that
Gustav in 0 go to see at the church.
Well, he no, he's the chef in Yeah, wait, he's the chef.
In. Grand Budapest.
And the chef in French Dispatch no.

(48:06):
Is he? I thought he was the I.
Think people know who we're talking about.
If you've seen the movie, he runs the nightclub.
And then this revolutionary group led by Richard Iot's, I
think it's Iot's. I apologize if it's not Sergio's
character. And he starts shooting up the
ceiling. He's like, hey, stop shooting my
ceiling. Good bits.
And these stops, I think the stops progressively get worse,

(48:28):
but the actors become more interesting in good and bad
ways. And we'll, we'll talk about
that, what you like about this. I just love him.
I think he's an underrated W character actor and.
I. Yes, and I love how he's like,
I'm not doing like what you're offering.
And we see Benicio Del Toro likereally trying to cut a deal and

(48:49):
failing, but we understand that this has probably worked for him
in the past kind of thing in in this business deal.
So I, I loved that whole, you know, development.
And then I think he accompanies Benicio del Toro to the next
stop as well. Yes, he does.
He goes to see Marty on the freighter.
I think it's the Navy and they see Jeffrey Wright and Wright's

(49:12):
become like just such an All Star in the Wes Anderson
campaign. I think he's one of my favorite
Wes character actors like he was.
He maybe had my favorite scene in Castroid City.
Yeah, I think so with his speechlike, And that was life.
Oh the narrative izing his past so good.
And I love hear how he's just like, I love the how how they

(49:35):
set this up with the grenade thing.
I think I think this was the onewhere it's like, do you want a
grenade? Like I already have one, right.
But Jeffrey Wright and Jeffrey Wright.
Cumberbatch says that later, too, right?
And maybe it wasn't that one, but, yeah.
But Jeffrey Wright's sitting on this bed with Benicio Del Toro,
who's lost a lot of blood. And I just love the way they're
like, they basically like have them in frame of their like

(49:59):
ankles crossed, like sitting, laying down, kind of like
chatting, but also like strikinga deal.
But then they start yelling at each other and put this
indecipherable like male banter yelling.
Yeah, which he does in other movies too, right?
He he does that kind of with theshooting at the end of Grand
Budapest where like everyone's just shooting at each other.

(50:20):
And then also we're, we're on the train and he shows just
men's like legs moving everywhere, like shifting.
I that is really works for me. Like, it's so funny.
So I I really like the grenade thing.
I feel like that can't get like,I feel like to stick on that for
a second. That kind of distills the Wes
Anderson humor so well. Help show something of like

(50:42):
symbolic of really tragic violence, like in this case, war
profiteering. And then make a sort of joke at
about how just the absurdity of like the dangerous things that
human beings do to one another. And this movie we're following a
war profiteer who's like who hasno money to give all these
people up to stop. So he's like, here's more
weapons. Here's more weapons to the point
where Benedict Cumberbatch's characters like I got enough

(51:03):
like we're from the same family.I like that's such a good Wes
example. Like a trademark of how he deals
in like these very serious things, but in such a stylized,
deadpan metaphorical way. He reduces how terrifying
everything is to how absurd everything is.
Yeah, well, also. Really observational way.
It's like he plays on kind of rules of like polite society

(51:26):
where he in, in this case, he islike looking at the idea of
never coming empty handed to an event, right.
And so like, instead of bringinga favor or something, right, or
like wine or something to someone else's home as he is
visiting everyone, he's like, would you like a grenade?
Right. He he like, plays with these

(51:48):
things all the time. Yeah.
The moon is stop 4 which I thinkis the worst stop because it's
the most under baked one. I agree.
Cousin. Holder, who's also becomes the
fiance, sort of of Nisa El Toro's character.
And yeah, this is just a strange, very quick kind of
subplot to the movie. Scarlett Johansson feels misused

(52:12):
and miscast because like the accent work but also doesn't get
a lot to do. So I've really nothing to say
too much about this outside of Wes Anderson not leaving like
anybody out of his satire in this movie.
Like he includes this this utopia to also criticize as part
of this like military war pump tier campaign that Del Torre's

(52:33):
character is on. Which I, I thought was an
interesting, you know, thematic addition to the stops along the
way. And he probably should have like
shown more of that to, to kind of have that comment of maybe
someone on the surface like having this utopian rhetoric of
like maybe mutual understanding or whatever.
And then still like being right involved in like profiting off

(52:55):
of this war or whatever. Benicio Del Toro's character is
making. Yeah.
So I felt like one, it was a really weird short stop that
didn't totally work. And then also Scarlett Johansson
was strangely, Yeah, like, misused.
I think it's the best way to putit, where I liked her as Midge
in Asteroid City, and I thought she really worked.
But here it felt so off and likethe humor didn't like totally

(53:17):
click because it felt rushed almost.
Yeah. And it's not like a bad
performance, it's just it is like a misuse.
I would say there is a bad performance and they're coming
up next and I'll get to that in a second.
That really rose me off. I'm like, I'm not in love with
this movie, but I do love a lot of it.
Yeah. Let's get to the other subplot
we've not discussed, really. We brought it up at the top, but
there's a whole purgatory subplot.

(53:37):
Oh, yeah, OK. This is what I have questions
for you about. Like what was going on there?
I have questions too. This is such like a this again.
This is like the Anderson later period project right now.
This is like his current era of like adding some kind of like
meta textual surreal subplot to dispatch to Asteroid city to now
Phoenician scheme. That's a little bit confusing.

(53:59):
It feels like you have to rewatch it because there were
such specific like my new details that were added in each
new part of the subplot that youfeel like you remember.
There were kind of hazy memories, even though we just
saw it a few days ago, where we see Corda is on trial or like in
some kind of like metaphysical tribunal that's heaven, but also
purgatory. And it may not be happening

(54:21):
because the CIA is also a subplot.
And they're in the background saying that he has brain damage
from taking like almost being assassinated multiple times.
And he's being judged not by like a legal system, even though
the judge is God, played by BillMurray, clearly, obviously.
But he's been God of the Wes Anderson universe.
Truly. But he's being judged by the

(54:41):
people he's hurt along the way throughout his life, so they
could. Be family members.
For their yeah, his three wives that he may have killed or.
Have he under the lie detector test, right, He says.
I didn't kill them. I didn't kill them personally,
right? Yeah.
And then there is his grandmother, who doesn't
remember who he is. Oh, OK.
There's a young boy in a coffin that could be somebody he knew

(55:03):
or the way I took it more literally, I think, Or I guess
still metaphorically his youngerself when he was innocent before
he became who he is now, which is a megalomaniac like mogul.
So I thought to me it was effective only because of his
relationship to Liesl. And I like this idea of Wes
Anderson being pretty transparent for the first time
in his career about being like anti capitalist.

(55:24):
Like really clearly it threw jokes, but it's very transparent
and also being sort of critical of how people try to justify
poor decisions in their life by thinking that they're going to
go to some kind of afterlife here, which I thought was well
done. It wasn't to me, it wasn't like
too pushy or judgmental. It was just more satirizing this

(55:45):
character and how lost he was and how he's been trying to find
meaning or purpose, whether it be through like building his own
nation through war profiteering or trying to get to heaven.
And at the end of the day, the best thing for Ben or sorry
Benicio Del Toro's character is to actually just be with the
people he cares about, which is now his adopted daughter and
make a Bistro with her and create their own little utopia

(56:07):
which is like a small business and like have whiskey with her
and play cards at night without really talking that much, like
with no drama. I liked that.
I thought that was a good through line to this guy's
journey. It does feel like a larger Wes
comment about the way he views the world or his philosophy on
the world rather. And I enjoyed that.
I think Wes is still like a his Gen.
X cynical political takes have always been off putting to me in

(56:31):
a lot of his movies and probablymost successful and Grand
Budapest. But still a little bit kind of
like he likes being an outsider because he just has like a lot
of cynicism about the way the world is built.
I guess societies are built. But this is the most kind of
accessible and transparent I've seen him be about.
Here are the things that I disagree with as an artist, and
here are the things that I thinkpeople should like, strive for

(56:51):
or I'm going to strive for, which is like making some
things, being creative at a Bistro and being a filmmaker and
spending time with the people that he has lost throughout his
life or he doesn't want to lose throughout his life, which is
his adoptive daughter. And I thought that was cool.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I, I wish, yeah, that I
could start a small business andor like whatever Wes is doing of

(57:12):
having this basically like Creative Ave. where he has time
to. I think they suggest with
people, yeah, there's some debt.But at the same time like
they're. Counting every bill at the end
of the movie. Yeah.
So I think though he is interestingly like looking at a
a new character at the center ofhis film where he's asking like

(57:33):
very overtly, right, the like cost of this guy's life and and
mission right along all the stops.
And obviously like there's all these jokes about him exploiting
people, right. So I think yeah, this feels like
the most straightforward and like anti heroic character that
he then I think it does really work at the end here where he

(57:57):
follows through on his commentary of like why he was
maybe doing this of like he feels lonely.
He like doesn't have connection.So even though it feels maybe
some people could say like forced, I actually think it
worked and it built naturally tothat point in a West world.
Yeah, it's just low stakes. Like relative to the stakes of
his past films that felt more like historical and

(58:19):
contemporary. This felt much more like
personal character journey for Nisa Del Toro's character that I
I just enjoyed. I enjoyed something that's a
little bit more grounded in this, like Meta W 1st, we've
been in for 6-7 years, so we getto stop 5, which is this like
hotel that they go to to introduce the people who are
going to be investing in the game.

(58:40):
Everyone from the stops has come.
Here, yes, all the stops people have come and Corda sees his
estranged brother Nubar, who is played by Benedict Cumberbatch,
who is in full villain mode in this movie.
And he reveals himself as sort of like the mastermind behind
the assassination attempts, which leads to him scuffling and
fighting Del Toro's character. And And there's a vial of poison

(59:01):
gas. There's a lot of running around.
There's some of the first cinematography choices I've seen
from West where the camera follows characters through rooms
instead of cutting in between rooms or some kind of like
swivel or pan or moving on a Dolly.
The camera literally runs with del Toro through the hotel
lobby, which was fun. That was new.
I think this is a new cinematographer for Anderson in

(59:23):
this movie as well. He he, I forgot the name of his,
his long time cinematographer. I probably have it right here
because I want to get his name because he's excellent.
Robert Yeoman is the cinematographer of most of Wes
Anderson's movies. I I would say almost all of
them. And this is a new one, Bruno Del
Bono as a new cinematographer for him on this one.
You can sort of tell in certain choices.

(59:44):
But yeah. What did you think about this
Better to Cumberbatch chapter? Because I felt like this This is
why I'm not in love with the movie.
This is a bad performance for me.
Like I don't think it's a good performance.
And I also, and I'm not like being super harsh here.
I just don't don't think it works because of what Wes asks
Cumberbatch to do. And this is kind of a part of
the larger like Wes. Problem.

(01:00:06):
If you're going to say there's something, if you're going to
say there's a lingering issue and there's a major criticism of
the Wes Anderson universe, it's that he has this like very thin
line between doing something that's like cartoonish and
whimsical versus doing somethingthat's like borderline
caricature. And I think this unfortunately,
is more toward the latter. It is like borderline caricature
where you see Cumberbatch with like prosthetics and doing a

(01:00:28):
sort of a voice sort of not and doesn't really have a character
and feels kind of strange and off putting and it just doesn't
work and the dynamic isn't greatwith him.
Del Toro The chemistry really isn't there is like estranged
brothers. I agree.
Yeah, I agree with that. I don't know if I'd say like
it's a bad performance. I think it's like the misused.
Like the Johansson thing? But I mean, but knowing like

(01:00:50):
being fans of Benedict Cumberbatch, I am, yeah.
I think that it's not a strong performance.
Like in terms of what I feel like we know he can do.
Yeah. I just feel like it was a
strange yeah decision. And the the kind of set pieces
itself in terms of like running throughout the hotel and them

(01:01:11):
trying to kill each other. That works.
That works. That was funny.
But like, yeah, the two actors themselves, strangely, like
they're I, I think it is fallingon Cumberbatch's side of maybe
the lack of chemistry. Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know why it was. Ultimately, I think the movie
lacked an emotional punch at theend because even though I liked

(01:01:32):
when del Toro returned to his daughter Liesl, and he's like,
can I adopt you? And she's like, that's fine.
Like she thinks about it. And I like her deadpan humor as
well. And that got me like, I didn't
choke up or anything. And, you know, if a movie
doesn't get me emotional, I question it's emotionality
because I'm really easy. I'm a easy crier in films.
But I feel like this movie needed like what Margot Robbie

(01:01:52):
brought to Ashford City, what Sarah Ronan brought to Grand
Budapest. There's there was a missing
energy that would that a depth, an emotional depth that I do
think critics who are, you know,skeptical of this movie are
nailing. I just don't think they're
treating the rest of the movie that seriously like.
Yeah, like, I don't think it was.
I don't think the Margot Robbie and Jason Schwartzman, you know,

(01:02:14):
emotional scene was at the same depth, like purposely as this
scene where he's like, believe me, my daughter very deadpan.
Yeah. Dry.
I I feel like it's supposed to be showing also, like he's been
treating his family like a business, right?
Which is also a very funny thingthat Wes kind of has explored in

(01:02:36):
other movies around like fatherhood.
We talked about that whole like Darjeeling Tenenbaum, Life
Aquatic, right? Like the dad figure purposely
being distancing and authoritative because he thinks
that's like what's best for his children kind of thing and going
through his own journey. So like, that is something that
he returns to here as a businessman doing something

(01:02:58):
different like that Emotionalitywas not, you know what I mean?
He's doing something different. It's an adventure comedy and
there's a limit to the characterstudy.
It's a del. Toro.
'S. Character Big emotional break
because of who Del Toro's character is written to be
already. Yeah, because then you're
dangerously I guess treading like forgiving the character
exactly considering what he's doing even though this is in the
meta W 1st. Yeah, he doesn't want you to
forgive this character. Yeah, that's a good point.

(01:03:20):
Yeah, so. So, but that's what I'm saying,
there is a little bit of a ceiling on the movie.
I still had an incredible time with it.
I thought it was a ton of fun. Yeah.
So the movie ends with them in the Bistro, small businesses,
Wes Anderson's pro like, so all that.
I feel like we've kind of summedup the movie.
We're done with the film in the deep dive.
Anything else you want to add before Extra Credits?
I will say, unless I already said this earlier and I'm just

(01:03:43):
forgetting, but I think I agree with you that the Bryan
Cranston, Tom Hanks, Rizal Med was like the best stop.
And also because we have the like Michael Cera getting drunk
on three beers, you know, aspectof that, which was in the
trailer. They knew that was a strong
scene for the the comedy, but sothat was the best stop.
But I enjoyed the Jeffrey Wrightas like character the most.

(01:04:07):
So you know. He wasn't my favorite stop.
Jeffrey Wright is really like ona run right now, like all the
character actor performances he's been doing and what he's
been doing with his capital. We're leaving leading movies too
with the American fiction, like with playing Gordon and the
Batman 2. Like I'm really happy with where
his career is going, but I really liked his performance

(01:04:27):
too. I just don't really have a good
memory of like what was said I guess that sequence of a
chapter. That's fair.
Yeah. I, well, it's hard for me to
remember a lot of what was said,like in all of the the stops
besides the basketball game thatwas kind of like iconic.
Yeah, so I guess my final thought is that before Extra
Credits, I'm perfectly happy with this movie.
Like it's mid tier W for me. It's like right in the middle of

(01:04:49):
his 12 films. It's like a number six or seven
for me to do the ranking, I guess.
But that's perfectly fine. Like I said, it would be the
spotlight of most other film makers careers.
Like it's really that good. I think it's just if people feel
some type of way about this movie, they're not judging in a
vacuum and they're comparing it to like his past films,
especially those like last two and Asteroid City in particular.

(01:05:11):
That's just a credit to how goodthose movies are.
That's how that's a credit to like how much I think of a
masterpiece a movie like Asteroid City is, which is a big
word to use for a movie that's only two years old.
But we re watched it the other night and I was like, this is as
good as Grand Budapest, if not better, more dense.
One of the great screenplays of the Twenty 20s and.
I really changed my mind on Asteroid City like.
Yeah, that was cool. Yeah.

(01:05:32):
Yeah, 'cause I think you were, you were more like lukewarm on
it when we saw it, 'cause it waspretty.
It was like a story within a story within.
A story in like 1 location and I'm used to going to many
different places in a in a West movie.
Yeah. OK, extra credits.
I'll go first. So I want to give extra credit
to Adam Stockhausen and I believe that's how you say his
last time. I, I apologize if it's not, but

(01:05:52):
he is sort of the crafter of theWestworlds.
He is the production designer and he's been with Wes and
stargealing limited in the Q&A for Phoenician scheme.
Wes credited him first and foremost to the success of this
movie and the success of his aesthetic and his style.
Because even though a lot of thestyle is credited to the tone

(01:06:15):
and the editing of the West project, it really is the
production design. Like to the point where TikTok
editors are like the horrible people who run AI designers are
trying to like copy or like mimic the Wes design.
They can't fully grasp it because they're missing that
emotionality because it's also character building in the screen
writing. But the production design from
Adam Stockhausen has just been so wonderful for almost 15 years

(01:06:37):
now with Wes Anderson since they're dealing.
And I just want to give him credit because I don't think
many people in mainstream audiences or audiences at large,
even critics really know that name.
I wasn't really super familiar with that name until Wes talked
about him for a while. And, you know, all of his
designs are really dense with back story and a lot of texture.
Venetian scheme has a lot of fundesigns.
I love the house, the home that del Toro has and all the

(01:06:59):
hallways with all his kids in the kitchen and like the dining
rooms. All these small sets that we
take for granted, I think, or the jet.
There's so many sets in this movie that are are just going to
be, I think, looked over a little bit because the film is
struggling so much with that emotional aspect for so many
people. Yeah, I really enjoyed the
plane. Like I enjoyed the del Toro also

(01:07:23):
saying like, I feel perfectly safe.
Yeah, you know the different books he was reading.
Yeah. But yeah, the setup of the
plane. And also we didn't talk about
Michael Cera, I think finding like a bomb that had already
been activated. And del Toro character asks like
how much time is on it? 15 minutes we're.
Fine, we're fine. By then, yeah.
But no, that's a really good extra credit just because I

(01:07:44):
think, you know, Wes obviously has a vision.
You can see it in behind the scenes or when he talks about it
in his interviews. But to, you know, this is like a
team effort to make a film. And often time with general
audiences, like all the work gets credited to just a
director, which I think Wes is deserving of in a lot of ways,
more so than maybe some other directors because of his, like,
singularity and, like, uniqueness.

(01:08:07):
But yeah, like, that's I think his production, you know, design
is so like, integral to his movies.
It's so important. The success of them, yeah.
He talked about on Darjeeling why he stuck with this guy
because he was like, I asked himto like, build a train from
different parts of India where we were.
And he built all these differenttrain carts with all these,
like, Knick knacks and all thesegadgets from, like, those
specific areas and subcultures. And I was like, this is my guy.

(01:08:30):
He's obsessed. I need an obsessive guy.
I just really related to that. So that was pretty awesome.
Yeah. Good extra credit.
I already said mine. It's Michael Cera.
I just think that he fits perfectly in the West world.
I hope that he is a part of the ensemble.
I think that Wes uses Sarah in AI.

(01:08:52):
Think people might think TimothyChalamet, like I said before,
just because they're two like young actors and have a, a
unique, I guess, iconic comedic relationship with audiences.
But I think he's more like a Tilda Swinton.
And I, I want to see him like used continuously like that,
like this kind of quirky presence that he continues to

(01:09:14):
bring back. I hope he gets the lead.
A Wes Anderson movie too. I would love to see him in a
lead role. But yeah, I'm really excited for
this new Michael Cera chapter again.
I would love to see him go in that kind of like sad comic
direction, almost like what AdamSandler did with PTA with Punch
Drunk Love. I would love to see Sarah lean
into being a more dramatic actor.
He isn't he I I mentioned like Albert Brooks or Gene Wilder,

(01:09:37):
now Adam Sandler. Those actors have like a lot of
emotional depth. They can also control the tone
and comedy of a scene without making the movie totally about
them. Michael Cera has that ability
comedically. We haven't really seen that from
him dramatically, but I think itwould be interesting to put him
in that position. So I'd love to see that from him
in the future. He also was just the best part

(01:09:58):
of that interview, that Q&A. He's so nonchalant, it's so
funny. I know I love him, Oh my God.
OK, that was the extra credits of Wes Anderson, his career, his
eras and the Phoenician scheme. If you like what you hear,
please subscribe. Like the video on YouTube?
Let leave us a comment of some of your favorite.
Wes Anderson movies stop your favorite character actor, maybe

(01:10:18):
in Wes's and maybe your favoriteWes movie.
Yeah, I think well, I think a top five Wes Anderson movie
ranking would be a lot of fun. So you can compare some people
in the comments. So let us know your ranking of
his, his films or anything else you want to let us know about
Wes on Spotify, Apple. Don't forget to rate and review.
And if you like what you hear inthe review, please kind words
only five stars only if you don't mind.

(01:10:39):
We're still independent shows, so we rely on a lot of your
ratings and reviews. We'll be back next with Celine
songs The Materialists next week, which unlike Phoenician
Scheme, is actually getting really great reviews, which is
very surprising to me as somebody who thought that
trailer was like. Well, yeah, the trailer was just
cut strangely interestingly. Yeah, and I, I'm not sure I love

(01:11:00):
the Chris Evans stuff, like the dynamic there.
The Pedro Pascal's are going to be, Oh yeah, 100.
Also someone who needs to be in a West movie.
Yeah. Pedro, he would love to be in a
West Anderson movie. I know him personally.
OK, that was the extra credits. See you guys.
Bye.

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